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Speaker 1: My from our nation's capital. This is Bloomberg sound On

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Speaker 1: talking about a huge issue here is investment in marginalized communities.

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Speaker 1: They want to deconstruct this package and cherry pick what

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Speaker 1: they like what they don't like. China is surgeon powered

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Speaker 1: with major investments. Bloomberg sound On, the insiders, the influencers,

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Speaker 1: the insights. Biden has Thomas again and again that he

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Speaker 1: will unite the country. Who do you think Biden has

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Speaker 1: to watch in terms of moderate defectors? Infut the structure

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Speaker 1: has always been by part of the Bloomberg sound On

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Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. All right, I'm Jack Fitzpatrick with Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: Coming up today, We've got Representative Andy Levin, Democrat of Michigan,

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Speaker 1: joining us. We're going to talk about the big political

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Speaker 1: news of the day. With the Census Bureau redrawing the

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Speaker 1: electoral College map, the White House is preparing to outline

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Speaker 1: its next big bill, including a big increase in the

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Speaker 1: capital Gains tax center. Republicans also obviously don't want to

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Speaker 1: undo their seventeen tax cuts as part of this big

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Speaker 1: infrastructure package. I'm here with Bloomberg political contributors Jeanie shn

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Speaker 1: Zano and Rick Davis. I left my heart in San

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Speaker 1: Francisco and I took my congressional district to Texas. The

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Speaker 1: Census Bureau redrawing the political map in the US today

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Speaker 1: with the announcement that Texas is going to get two

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Speaker 1: additional seats, not just in the U. S. House of

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Speaker 1: Representative but in the electoral College. You also see loser states,

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Speaker 1: including Pennsylvania, New York, Minnesota, a lot of states in

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Speaker 1: the East losing ACCIPA for the first time ever California.

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Speaker 1: We've got sound from the Census director on some of

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Speaker 1: the big takeaways today. Let's play that sound. Since nineteen forty,

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Speaker 1: the regional trend with a porchment has been an increase

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Speaker 1: in the number of congressional seats for the south and

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Speaker 1: west and a loss of congressional seats for the north

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Speaker 1: and northeast and Midwest. That was a Census director Ron Jarman. Again,

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Speaker 1: I'm here with Bloomberg Politics tributors Jeanie shn Zano and

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Speaker 1: Rick Davis. Rick, let's start with you. Let's skip the

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Speaker 1: skip two, go straight to what do you think this

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Speaker 1: means for Democrats Biden assuming he runs for re election.

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Speaker 1: With the broad shifting patterns, in the electoral College. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think that it sets up a really interesting dynamic

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Speaker 1: because there were a couple of new states in play

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Speaker 1: in this election, both Arizona and UH and Georgia that

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Speaker 1: were the surprise UH combinations that allowed Biden to win

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Speaker 1: the presidency. And in Arizona for one, is missing out

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Speaker 1: in this UH parade of new congressional district So I

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Speaker 1: think part of the dynamic in twenty four is going

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Speaker 1: to be that that they're they're going to have to

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Speaker 1: spend even more time in some of these swing states.

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Speaker 1: As you know, Jack, I mean they Biden campaign actually

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Speaker 1: thought at one point in time that they could put

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Speaker 1: in play Texas. Well, maybe they're gonna have to start

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Speaker 1: thinking about how to really put it in play, because

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Speaker 1: right now there seem to be collecting the line's share

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Speaker 1: of the population in the political perks that come along

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Speaker 1: with it. Yeah, I want to dig in on that

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Speaker 1: and bring in Genie. Genie, what do you think this

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Speaker 1: means for individual states? That my first impression was, look,

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Speaker 1: if Democrats think they can win Texas, then they should

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Speaker 1: go for it. Or does it at least mean bad

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Speaker 1: news for the focus on Ohio? Which states really matter?

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Speaker 1: Most or matter less than they used to in a

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Speaker 1: presidential race. Now, well, Jack, I'm in one of the

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Speaker 1: loser states that you described so accurately. New York people

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Speaker 1: aren't losing, continues to lose every year every ten years.

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Speaker 1: I should say no, you know, I think one thing

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Speaker 1: I would say is we can't get too far ahead

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Speaker 1: of ourselves on this. What we got today was we

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Speaker 1: got the first sort of basic if you will count

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Speaker 1: and that each sounds like Genie's working on her cell

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Speaker 1: phone connection. We'll we'll talk with her about the infrastructure bill,

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Speaker 1: including broadband, and maybe see if we can fix that

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Speaker 1: in the next piece of legislation. Rick uh, let me

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Speaker 1: just follow up with you. Is it Texas Texas is

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Speaker 1: the the the gold standard now that both parties want

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Speaker 1: to go to her or what are your other takeaways

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Speaker 1: in terms of individual states? You know, I think Texas

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Speaker 1: obviously is one of the big beneficiaries and and and

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Speaker 1: you see it just demographically right. I mean, even the

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Speaker 1: news cycle is is trumpeting how many people are leaving

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Speaker 1: California and going to Texas, leaving the Northeast and going

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Speaker 1: to Texas. But it does continue the drumbeat that we've

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Speaker 1: seen for quite some time, probably the last four decades,

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Speaker 1: is the movement from the northeast and Midwest into the

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Speaker 1: south and the west. And so that's a macro trend

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Speaker 1: that is simply not going to abate. And so when

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Speaker 1: you look at where we're going to be as a

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Speaker 1: country with the power in the elected office, it's going

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Speaker 1: to be in the southern States Florida, uh in, in

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Speaker 1: places like Arizona. Sooner or later they'll pick up another state.

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Speaker 1: That was one of the actual surprises to me is

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Speaker 1: everybody was predicting Arizona would pick up a state because

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Speaker 1: it has had in migration, but they didn't pick up

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Speaker 1: anywhere near enough in migration to actually give themselves a

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Speaker 1: tenth seat. So uh yeah, I think Texas becomes a hotspot.

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Speaker 1: I think Democrats are are thinking about how to win

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Speaker 1: in places like Texas. I think they're now going to

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Speaker 1: look at these congressional districts and they're going to be

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Speaker 1: all rejiggered now right to make room for another two

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Speaker 1: and they're gonna try and fight hard to ensure that

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Speaker 1: they actually pick up seats within that Texas delegation. And

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Speaker 1: the last big picture question I think that I have

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Speaker 1: is you know, I saw this and I thought, what

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Speaker 1: what does this mean? After the Trump realignment of the

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Speaker 1: GOP so much focus on the Midwest, Ohio, the rust belt,

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Speaker 1: the white working class, and yet you saw, you know,

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Speaker 1: with the focus in a very racially diverse state like Georgia,

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Speaker 1: which became a swing state. Uh, I guess pushing the

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Speaker 1: different direction. What does this mean if in the big

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Speaker 1: picture we're taking away political clout from the rust belt

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Speaker 1: and putting it into the sun Belt in terms of

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Speaker 1: the demographics of who are the real swing voters in

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Speaker 1: this country? Well, I think you you also look inside

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Speaker 1: this data exactly how you were seeing it from sort

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Speaker 1: of more Midwestern states and Northeastern states into the south

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Speaker 1: in the West. But even within this data, there are

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Speaker 1: inklings that there may be a migration out of cities.

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Speaker 1: And so when you look at that, the two combined

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Speaker 1: has to be a troubling feature for Democrats because Democrats

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Speaker 1: own the cities, they get nine of the vote most

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Speaker 1: of the major cities of America. If there's migration out

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Speaker 1: into suburbs, and then in addition to that out of

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Speaker 1: states that they typically are strong in, it could really

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Speaker 1: you know, evacuate a lot of their normal i'd say

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Speaker 1: base state options, and we saw even this election cycle

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Speaker 1: a lot of what was traditional base states all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden became targeted states and swing states, and so

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Speaker 1: I think you're going to see a continued movement in

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Speaker 1: that direction. Well, you're touching on you know, you're getting

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Speaker 1: onto the rural verse is urban issue within the states.

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Speaker 1: This doesn't just matter for the presidential race. This is

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Speaker 1: gonna matter a lot for mid terms. And now all

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Speaker 1: these states have to redraw their districts. This is reapportionment.

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Speaker 1: We're going to redistricting, which I know is contentious. I

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Speaker 1: lived in Arizona when they redrew the lines there in

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Speaker 1: twenty eleven. That was quite the issue. Uh Rick, Any

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Speaker 1: initial takeaways in terms of I mean, in these states

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Speaker 1: that are gonna lose seats, somebody's gonna be out of

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Speaker 1: a job, or you're gonna have incumbents running against each other.

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Speaker 1: What does this mean practically for the states that are

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Speaker 1: losing seats in the mid terms. Yeah, losing seats in

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Speaker 1: the mid terms is the toughest, right, because you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have legislatures that are dominated by the parties that are

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Speaker 1: now have to carve out one, if not more seats,

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Speaker 1: and and that is a scrambled plus, this census is

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Speaker 1: coming in a little later than normal, so you know,

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Speaker 1: it got started late, it's cut the results are coming

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Speaker 1: in late. And this is the first time pollical parties

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Speaker 1: and the people at the state level are actually seeing

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Speaker 1: the data that they need to draw those lines. So

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Speaker 1: it's going to dominate the political discussion in these states

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Speaker 1: that are losing seats because they've got to figure out

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Speaker 1: what to carve it out. And and nine times out

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Speaker 1: of ten it becomes a partisan issue depending upon the

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Speaker 1: structure of that redistricting process. Now let's bring Genie back. Genie,

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Speaker 1: I want to give you probably the hardest question I

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Speaker 1: can think of, because this stuff gets really contentious and

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Speaker 1: really complicated. What happens next? What's the schedule look like?

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Speaker 1: We have these basic numbers of how many seats each

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Speaker 1: state gets, uh, then we have to redraw them. What

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Speaker 1: does the redistricting process look like? And and is there

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Speaker 1: enough time? Rick was just saying, we're on a tough

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Speaker 1: schedule because the census was finished late. What does that

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Speaker 1: mean practically speaking for the next year or so? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was so glad Rick mentioned that you know, we

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Speaker 1: forget that this was late, not only because the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: but because in July the Trump administration shot this count

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Speaker 1: short a bit, and so this came in late. And

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Speaker 1: now what we're looking at is about mid August when

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Speaker 1: we get the breakdowns that the states need to start

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Speaker 1: to redraw those districts. So you're coming incredibly close to

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Speaker 1: the marker. Not only that states that law c may

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Speaker 1: consider filing lawsuits, and so we don't know how many will,

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Speaker 1: if any, but that's also a calculation here. So this

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Speaker 1: is going to have a huge impact on two, but

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Speaker 1: difficult now to know how much of an impact who

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Speaker 1: files those lawsuits. We never have a perfect census count

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Speaker 1: in this country, obviously, but we won't know until June

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Speaker 1: and then December when the Census tells us how accurate

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Speaker 1: they believe this count was, which is merely a snapshot

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Speaker 1: of what was happening last year about April. So we've

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Speaker 1: got ways to go on this, and it's coming up,

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Speaker 1: I think, incredibly close to what you would need to

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Speaker 1: do something in terms of two. So I think it's

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Speaker 1: going to be fascinating to watch how this all plays out. Ginie,

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Speaker 1: that's a good point. I know, there's so much litigation,

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Speaker 1: so many lawsuits forever when it comes to redistricting, But

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Speaker 1: what do you what do you sue over when you

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Speaker 1: get a number of seats that you don't like in reapportionment.

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Speaker 1: I know New York was really really close to actually

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Speaker 1: not losing a seat this time. But what what argument

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Speaker 1: do you make is it's like a recount, Well, it

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Speaker 1: would be an argument that the count was essentially not

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Speaker 1: done accurately, there was an undercount, and we are going

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Speaker 1: to get numbers on that. There is a private organization

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Speaker 1: that looks at that. The census is going to tell

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Speaker 1: us in December whether there was over counting or undercounting

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Speaker 1: and where it was, what if it if it impacts

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Speaker 1: you know, more or less people of a certain race, ethnicity, sex,

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Speaker 1: age area, those are all the kinds of things that

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Speaker 1: states are going to take very seriously because, as I

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Speaker 1: always tell students, this is about power, and of course

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Speaker 1: those numbers matter more than anything. So this is not only,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of a boring count, but it is

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Speaker 1: about who's going to have power going into two and

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Speaker 1: as it pertains for the electoral college, this is about power.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty much an evergreen statement. When you come across

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Speaker 1: this kind of conversation, I do want to point out

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Speaker 1: in some cases maybe we'll see jerrymandering to protect the incumbents,

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Speaker 1: especially of a majority party. But Michigan and California both

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Speaker 1: set to lose a seat, and they both have independent

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Speaker 1: redistricting commissions. This was quite the debate a little while

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Speaker 1: back in terms of the legality of independent redistricting commission.

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Speaker 1: So we're not going to see that there. It's going

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Speaker 1: to be out of their hands. This is Bloomberg sound

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Speaker 1: On on Bloomberg Radio. All right, thanks Charlie. This is

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Speaker 1: Jack Fitzpatrick here with Bloomberg Politics contributors Jeanie Shanzano and

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Speaker 1: Rick Davis. Negotiations continue over an infrastructure plan. President Biden

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Speaker 1: has called for two and a quarter trillion dollars for

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Speaker 1: a wide range of programs. Don't think Republicans like the

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Speaker 1: climate stuff in there very much. Republicans in the Senate

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Speaker 1: have countered with something much narrower coming in and at

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Speaker 1: five D seventy billion dollars now. Earlier today, my colleague

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Speaker 1: David Weston spoke to West Virginia Republican Senator Shelley Moore

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Speaker 1: Capital one of the authors of the slim down version,

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Speaker 1: and he asked her if Republicans could ever agree on

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Speaker 1: increased taxes as a pay for let's play the sound

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Speaker 1: on that. I don't think there's any appetite to go back.

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Speaker 1: We all, we all voted for the Tax Cutting Jobs

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Speaker 1: Act of well not all of us, but most of us,

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Speaker 1: and believe that it had the resultant uptick in in

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Speaker 1: our economic activity, wages, and more people working before pre pandemic.

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Speaker 1: So I think that we with the Trust Fund, with

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Speaker 1: user fees, we could maybe look at vehicle miles traveled,

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Speaker 1: We can look at getting some of that those COVID

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Speaker 1: dollars redirected to infrastructure. We think we can cover the

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Speaker 1: whole package, and that gives us, I think, uh a

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Speaker 1: huge leg to stand on in terms of saying we

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Speaker 1: don't want to raise taxes in this environment. That's the

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Speaker 1: author of the Republican counter offer. Senator Shelley Moore capital

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Speaker 1: uh Rick Davis, I want to bring you in here.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about that as seemingly a red line?

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Speaker 1: Am I right in calling that a red line? Uh?

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Speaker 1: It's it seems almost intractable with Biden pushing for significant

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Speaker 1: corporate tax increases. What do you what do you make

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Speaker 1: of capital Pushing back on that, well, you know, Jack,

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Speaker 1: I think i'd call it maybe a pink line, because, um,

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Speaker 1: what was interesting is she obviously said, hey, two thousand

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Speaker 1: seventeen tax cuts helped economy. I mean, we did great

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Speaker 1: with those and and that's a fact in the books.

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Speaker 1: But in this current period, when we're trying to dig

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Speaker 1: out of a COVID economy, Uh, she actually talked about

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Speaker 1: finding revenue in different ways. And and so just the

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Speaker 1: fact that she's open to looking for revenue in in

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Speaker 1: in different ways, not just redirecting COVID dollars, indicates that

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Speaker 1: there's some interest on these in in in the gew

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Speaker 1: Ope in the Senate to actually look for ways to

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Speaker 1: fund their proposal, which is what a fifth of the

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Speaker 1: Biden proposal just over five billion. But there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of similarities in that bill too, So it'll be interesting

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Speaker 1: to see how now the negotiations start. We've got a

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Speaker 1: baseline for for what we're currently spending on all these areas,

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Speaker 1: and then we have a Republican plan and a Democrat plan. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Jeanie shan Zano, I have a philosophical question for you.

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Speaker 1: I've been trying to work this out in my head.

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Speaker 1: When people like Senator Capito say, you know, we don't

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Speaker 1: want to redo, we don't want to undo what we

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Speaker 1: did with the tax cut. How much of that is,

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Speaker 1: in your mind ideology, because they don't want to increase taxes.

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Speaker 1: But how much is a factor in legislative negotiations. Uh

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Speaker 1: is pride they don't want to undo the legacy of

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Speaker 1: the Trump administration. Is that a significant factor in these

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Speaker 1: talks in your mind? I think it is. I think

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Speaker 1: they are deeply concerned about any thing that smells of

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Speaker 1: a step back from what they view as the successes

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Speaker 1: of the Trump administration. And certainly for Republicans, that tax bill,

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Speaker 1: along with criminal justice reform, along with deregulation, the court packing,

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Speaker 1: that was all, you know, the successes of the administration.

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Speaker 1: They don't want to step back from that. I also

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Speaker 1: think this is a lot of politics. Of course, you

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Speaker 1: can never sort of divorce that from this discussion, because

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Speaker 1: for Republicans, they don't want to go into two with

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Speaker 1: any sort of descriptor that they have raised taxes, And

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Speaker 1: of course they really need to seriously consider an offer

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Speaker 1: like a corporate tax in you know, an increase of

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Speaker 1: the corporate tax rate. That is a that is you know,

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Speaker 1: they never had a real, you know, opposition to that.

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Speaker 1: They went down further than anybody suggested, and to think

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Speaker 1: that they could go to five shouldn't be that sort

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Speaker 1: of off putting. So I do think there should be

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Speaker 1: room to maneuver there. And I think when Brick uses

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Speaker 1: the term pink line, which I'm going to steal from you,

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Speaker 1: Rick Davis, I think that's an indication, you know, the

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Speaker 1: corporate tax rate is one of those areas where they

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Speaker 1: really should be able to negotiate that. Rick, what do

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Speaker 1: you think about that? I'm really interested in the reference

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Speaker 1: to two. We haven't heard anybody say, read my lips,

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Speaker 1: no new taxes. But is it politically feasible heading into

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Speaker 1: these mid terms where Republicans are trying to dig themselves

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Speaker 1: selves out of the minority, for them to agree to

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Speaker 1: some sort of corporate tax rate increase or is that

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Speaker 1: just an athema? Well, Genie's right, I mean, no Republicans

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Speaker 1: want to be tagged with being the guy who raised taxes.

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Speaker 1: But we do forget that in this first hundred days,

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Speaker 1: there's already been a pretty sizeable tax cut right. It

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Speaker 1: came in the form of stimulus payments and tax credits.

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Speaker 1: But these are tax cuts, and we have it now

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Speaker 1: to the point where you know, people earning seventy five

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Speaker 1: dollars less don't pay any federal taxes, and those who

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Speaker 1: earn a little bit more a hundred thousand only pay

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Speaker 1: one point eight percent ural tax. And so you have

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Speaker 1: all these people coming off the tax books already. And

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Speaker 1: so this whole tax debate is kind of interesting because

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Speaker 1: we've had a big tax cut in the first hundred

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Speaker 1: days of the Biden administration, and now he wants to

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Speaker 1: raise taxes on the wealthy obviously, and the corporate tax rate.

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Speaker 1: So those two things I think are probably gonna go

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Speaker 1: down to a party line vote, and the Biden folks

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Speaker 1: are going to have to convince people like UH Senator

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Speaker 1: Mansion to walk the plank if they're going to raise

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Speaker 1: revenue for these big spending items. Now Mansion has already

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Speaker 1: said I could see a little higher tax rate. I

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Speaker 1: can imagine he would be okay with a higher UH

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Speaker 1: tax rate on wealthy individuals too. So I think they're

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Speaker 1: in the game range of being able to move something

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Speaker 1: on that end. It won't be anywhere near what they're

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Speaker 1: asking for today, But there may actually be a tax

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Speaker 1: rise and Republicans won't vote for it. Some potential middle

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Speaker 1: ground there, Shelley Moore, Capital Senate Republicans, saying, toughest part

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Speaker 1: to this is going to be the tax issues. But

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Speaker 1: we're seeing some bipartisan talks on infrastructure coming up. At

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Speaker 1: a little bit, we're gonna talk more about tax issues,

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Speaker 1: capital gains tax. For now. I'm Jack Fitzpatrick. This is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: You know, today President Biden is preparing to get into

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Speaker 1: the business of raising the capital gains tax. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: hear more about that in his Joint Session speech on Wednesday.

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Speaker 1: We've got a little bit of a preview today from

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Speaker 1: one of his top economic advisors. Brian Diese, the director

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Speaker 1: of the National Economic Council, said today's press briefing that

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Speaker 1: Biden's upcoming plan would set the new threshold for a

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Speaker 1: higher capital gains rate, taxes at those earning more than

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Speaker 1: a million dollars a year off capital gains. That's, in

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Speaker 1: his words, the three tents, the top three tenths of

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Speaker 1: a percent of tax payers. Let's hear more. Uh, let's

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Speaker 1: get the sound from Brian Deese, we're talking about UH

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Speaker 1: a tax change that would affect again the three tenths

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Speaker 1: of one percent UH, the top sliver of households um

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Speaker 1: And number two, the principle here is to equalize the

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Speaker 1: treatment of ordinary income in capital gains. Now, I've been

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Speaker 1: wondering if they're pushing this for the money that's going

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Speaker 1: to be brought in an increased revenue, or if this

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Speaker 1: is more of an ideological tax measure on its own.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious if we can parse that out based on

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Speaker 1: how they're selling this. We have a little bit more

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Speaker 1: sound from Brian Diese where it gets more into the

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Speaker 1: idea of fairness. Let's play that sound. Making this sort

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Speaker 1: of change for that top you know, three tenths of

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Speaker 1: a percent of taxpayers. Equalizing ordinary income in capital gains

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Speaker 1: is is would restore fairness and do so in a

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Speaker 1: way that wouldn't significantly affect investment, and that would allow

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Speaker 1: us to make really high return investments for which there's

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Speaker 1: been broad bipartisan support. All right now, Jeanie shan Zano

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Speaker 1: and you're listening to them, prepare to sell this and

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Speaker 1: they'll get into the details and really pitch it on

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Speaker 1: Wednesday in the Joint Sessions speech. Are you hearing a

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Speaker 1: legislative measure that really is part of this next package

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Speaker 1: and this is a pay for for the so called

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Speaker 1: American Famili's Plan or is this a campaign measure? Does

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Speaker 1: this stand on its own? And is this just the

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Speaker 1: tax policy that the Biden administration wants to push? You know,

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Speaker 1: I think jackets it's a bit of both. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: I do hear the White House making an argument importantly

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Speaker 1: about fairness. They want to tax wealth not work, or

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Speaker 1: they want to, you know, find an equilibrium between taxation

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Speaker 1: on wealth versus work. There but that you raise such

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Speaker 1: an important point about will this increase revenue? And there

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Speaker 1: are a number of studies coming out that suggests it

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Speaker 1: will not. And if it's not increasing revenue, this is

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Speaker 1: a philosophical argument then about fairness. And we heard for

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Speaker 1: the weekend what Republicans are coming back and saying they

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Speaker 1: are calling this increase from twenty to thirty six point

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Speaker 1: down or proposed increase socialism. We heard Chris Christie say

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Speaker 1: that over the weekend, saying this is about income redistribution,

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Speaker 1: this is about moving the country towards socialism. So I

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Speaker 1: think We're going to hear more of this back and

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Speaker 1: forth in this debate, which in my mind becomes more

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Speaker 1: philosophical versus an actual increase in revenue that can be

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Speaker 1: used to pay for a lot of this second part

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Speaker 1: of this infrastructure plan. Yeah, Rick Davis, I want to

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Speaker 1: ask you, you know, we heard so much discussion in

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Speaker 1: about the hits on Democrats calling them socialists and how

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Speaker 1: much that might have done in South Florida a lot

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Speaker 1: of Cuban American voters when you hear the rhetoric on this.

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Speaker 1: And we'll get more into the numbers on the legislative proposal,

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Speaker 1: but on the rhetoric, what does this make you think

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Speaker 1: about two and how they define the party in two

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Speaker 1: in terms of Democrats the words socialist, uh and their

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Speaker 1: rhetoric on taxes. Now, Yeah, Jack, I think you plugged

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Speaker 1: into the current political debate. UH. It worked in UM

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Speaker 1: the elections in UH. There's good evidence that it influenced

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Speaker 1: Hispanic voters in South Florida, Cubans, Venezuelans, Puerto Ricans who

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Speaker 1: have a sense of you know, what destruction can be

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Speaker 1: read upon your economy in a socialist environment. And I

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Speaker 1: think it's exactly what Genie described, I mean, you now

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Speaker 1: see Republicans starting to retread that argument because in this case,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you think about it, the redistributional wealth is

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Speaker 1: actually happening in front of us. I mean five, almost

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Speaker 1: five hundred billion dollars in tax cuts have already been

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Speaker 1: done in the first hundred days. And and and that

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Speaker 1: is compared to an annual bill from the two thousand

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Speaker 1: seventeen Trump tax cut of of of only about a

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Speaker 1: hundred and thirty. So I mean, like, this is the

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Speaker 1: biggest tax cutter for the lower half of the economic

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Speaker 1: equation in the I say it. And and now he's

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Speaker 1: loading up on um, you know, wealth, wealth, accumulation, and

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Speaker 1: productive power of the country. And and I think that's

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Speaker 1: where the evidence is going to come. So will people

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Speaker 1: use this in the mid terms especially? Absolutely, this will

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Speaker 1: be number one, if not uh, the biggest issue Republicans

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Speaker 1: use on on the economy going into the mid terms. Now, Rick,

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Speaker 1: I'm curious how the Democrats counter that potentially with tax policy.

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Speaker 1: There's this push to make the temporary child tax credit permanent,

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Speaker 1: and I'm curious when the rubber meets the road, I mean,

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Speaker 1: is that probably democrats top priority in terms of tax

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Speaker 1: legislation going forward, or how do they balance these uh,

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Speaker 1: these different things that they want to do with the

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Speaker 1: tax code. Well, I think they've found out that they

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Speaker 1: can do both, right, I mean, I do think it's

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Speaker 1: a um an effort by Democrats to sort of buy

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Speaker 1: in a lot of people who have a lot of

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Speaker 1: pressure during COVID, especially with UM with their families. And

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Speaker 1: so the tax credit was very well received on Capitol Hill.

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Speaker 1: Actually it was very few people argued against it. But

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00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,479
Speaker 1: but but nobody thought it was actually going to be

432
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: a permanent tax cut, right. Everyone thought it was just

433
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: part of the relief package, you know, give give families

434
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: a break during COVID. Uh. Now all of a sudden,

435
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: it looks like it's one of these the largest tax cuts,

436
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: uh that that that that has happened in a long time,

437
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 1: including the two thousand and seventeen Trump Plan. So he's

438
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: fueled his his run up to tax increases by a

439
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: huge gift to the American taxpayer. Really at the lower

440
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 1: ends of the of the economic equation. I mean, you know,

441
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: when you talk about people making a hundred thousand dollars

442
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: who aren't really paying much at all in taxes and

443
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: have gotten on top of that stimulus payments and child

444
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: tax credits. It's been a windfall and our economy is

445
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 1: showing signs of that has been good for the economy.

446
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 1: The question is is it good for the macro economy

447
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 1: going forward? If you start marking this on a tenure basis,

448
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: you're gonna lose a lot of revenue, and how do

449
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 1: you then pay for all these activities like infrastructure that

450
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: we talked about earlier. Brian Deese emphasizing this is aimed

451
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: at the top zero point three percent of earners, who

452
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 1: he says, get about seventy percent of their income from

453
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: capital returns rather than labor wages. Coming up soon, we're

454
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: gonna have Congressman Andy Levin, Democrat from Michigan, a former

455
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: labor union lawyer, joining us. Excited to ask him about

456
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: not only the Michigan redistricting news, but the bolts he's

457
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: gonna take. I'm Jack Fitzpatrick. This is Bloomberg. You're listening

458
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 1: to Bloomberg Sound On on Bloomberg Radio. Jack Fitzpatrick along

459
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: with Bloomberg Politics contributors Jeanie shn Zano and Rick Davis.

460
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: We've got a good guest with us today on a Monday.

461
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: Representative Andy Levin, Democrat from Michigan, the ninth district Congressman,

462
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: really happy to have you on. Uh, it's a timely

463
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: time to get a Michigan lawmaker on especially, I've got

464
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: to get your your immediate response to today's news. I

465
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: don't think this was unexpected, but your home state is

466
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: losing a House seat going forward. What's what's your what's

467
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: your reaction to the lay of the land and the

468
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 1: political map after today's Census Bureau news. Well, as you say,

469
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: you know, we've known this was likely to happen for

470
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: a long time, so um, you know, I mean, I

471
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: think it's great that Michigan voters, all of us in

472
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: amended our constitution by referendum so that voters will choose

473
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 1: politicians and not the other way around. In in our reapportionment.

474
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: That's for Congress and for state Senate and State House.

475
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: So we're gonna have a new citizen commission taking the

476
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: detailed results of the census when we get them, and

477
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 1: dividing up Michigan into thirteen House districts instead of fourteen.

478
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: You know, one time we had nineteen, so we've you know,

479
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: Michigan uh, grows a little bit, but other parts of

480
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: the country have been growing more not the result. Congressman,

481
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: I am very interested in this independent redistrict Redistricting Commission

482
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 1: how that changes things going forward. But I've got to ask,

483
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: maybe prematurely about four because this affects the electoral college.

484
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 1: Of course. Uh, you're you're seeing a shrinking influence from

485
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 1: the rust belt basically more in the sun Belt. How

486
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: how concerned are you about dwindling influence from not only

487
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: Michigan but states like yours in and beyond. Well, I

488
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 1: think that, uh, you know, ultimately we've got to move

489
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: towards a system where just the people of the country

490
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: directly elect presidents or the you know, the popular vote

491
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: compact among the states, where we if we don't formally

492
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 1: get rid of the electoral college, you know, the facto

493
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: we do. But Michigan is a really big state, Ohio

494
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: is a really big state, Wisconsin. We still got a

495
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: lot of people here in the industrial Midwest, and we're scrappy,

496
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: and we'll keep fighting for influence in Washington, but we'll

497
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: have a few less representatives to do it, that's for sure.

498
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: Representative eleven. It's great to talk to you. I know

499
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: you introduced legislation on the floor today, UM which concerns

500
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: drug prices, and I wanted to see if you could

501
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: tell us about that and also if you UM, as

502
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: a sort of a part two, I'm sorry to do this.

503
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: Do you think the Democratic promise to allow government to

504
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: negotiate prescription drug prices should be included in this second

505
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: infrastructure bill as well? Yeah, so clearly we need to

506
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: negotiate for drug prices. It's crazy that Americans pay way

507
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: more for drugs usually that are invented here, often with

508
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: subsidy from our federal government right into in the basic research,

509
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: and then Americans pay more for the drugs than people

510
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: in other countries do. So that's crazy, and we've got

511
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: to do that. My bill is called the Stop Games Act,

512
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: and it I'm one of these people who's I'm a

513
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: progressive and I'm pragmatic at the same time, so I'm

514
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: actually all for medicare for all and and having a

515
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: single payer system. But this bill would take a modest

516
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: but really important step to bringing down drug prices by

517
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: stopping the games that big pharma plays with the citizen

518
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: petition process of the Food and Drug Administration basically, when

519
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: a patent's up and it's time for competition from generics,

520
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: let it happen without a lot of obstacles. And it's

521
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: it's a bipartisan bill, and I really hope we can

522
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: pass it in this Congress because it would save Americans

523
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: a lot of money. Congress, and one I I want

524
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: to jump in and ask, you know, we're hearing more

525
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: and more pushback from Republicans on not the details of

526
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: the infrastructure proposal itself, but on the pay fors uh

527
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: and so much pushback on changes to the corporate tax rate.

528
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: When you hear what's coming out of the Senate Republican

529
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: conference on pay fors for an infrastructure proposal, what's your

530
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: take on whether there is common ground or can be

531
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: common ground on those tax issues. Well, my my main

532
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: reaction is I'm really glad Joe Biden's president because I

533
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: think that his his approach really makes a lot of sense.

534
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: He genuinely wants to talk to Republicans and Democrats. He's

535
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: got decades of experience of bipartisanship. But he's not about

536
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: to slow down the train for months, uh and not

537
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: be able to get things done. So we have to

538
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: have dialogue. But the bottom line is he doesn't even

539
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: want to raise corporate taxes up was high as they

540
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: were before the Trump Bill. You know, tax bill changed everything,

541
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: and we've got to have the wealthy and corporations pay

542
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: some reasonable share of the burden of running society, of

543
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: having a good infrastructure to to enable business to thrive.

544
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: And so, you know, we're open to all ideas, but

545
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: the idea that that business won't pay its fair share

546
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: is not going to fly. Congressman, I was wondering if

547
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: I could pressure on that, because, I mean, there are

548
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: so many things in the pipeline, and we just went

549
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: through a huge spending bill for the coronavirus UM stimulus.

550
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: Now you know, we're lining up for a big hot

551
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: debate on the American Jobs Plan to and to and

552
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: a quarter trillion dollars of the infrastructure spending, and then

553
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: right after that comes to the American Families Plan another

554
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: one point nine trillion. And these increases almost a doubling

555
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: of the marginal rate and significantly higher capital gains rates.

556
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: Are they enough to be able to accommodate Let's say

557
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: Joe got what he wanted, which we know is not practical,

558
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: but um at what point will that tax increase as

559
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: discussed today by the administration not be enough, especially when

560
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: you have other things like what you just described, like

561
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: Medicare for all that are still embedded in some of

562
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: these plans. Well, Medicare for All is not embedded in

563
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: Joe Biden's plans. That's it's not in the American Family

564
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: Care but it would be something that they would pursue

565
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: potentially with congressional support. Well, Joe Biden's not for it,

566
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: so but but in any event, I get your your

567
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: your main point for sure, and I think that one

568
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: of the key things that we have to realize is

569
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: that we've had a lot of rhetoric about how cutting

570
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: taxes for wealthy people incorporations will pay for itself, which

571
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: has been proven over and over not to be the case.

572
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, there is tremendous evidence that

573
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: that infrastructure really us pay for itself. I was I

574
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: was a construction worker building the Tenley Town the elevator

575
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: chaft for the Tinley Town metro station when the d

576
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: C Metro was built. The amount of private wealth that

577
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: was has been created around those metro stations just in

578
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: d C is phenomenal. And infrastructure really can drive capitalism

579
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: in a fantastic way. So I think people need to

580
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: stop winding and pony up and pay their fair share

581
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: so that we can have outstanding transit, outstanding high speed rail,

582
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: outstanding bus service, great roads and bridges and sewers. And

583
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: it puts a lot of people to work. The people

584
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: who get the jobs, pay taxes and help with our

585
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: revenue situation. And and then you know, business needs to

586
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: pay a little bit too. So I'm I'm really bullish

587
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: on infrastructure in particular as a really sensible investment. Congressman,

588
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: I want to change topics a little bit and ask

589
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: because you are a member of the Progressive Caucus, and

590
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,240
Speaker 1: I know there are a number of progressive lawmakers pushing

591
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: back on the Biden plan for a slight increase in

592
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 1: defense spending. Uh even some calling for a ten percent

593
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: cut to the military budget. What do you want to

594
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: see on defense spending and what's next for progressives in

595
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 1: that pushback against what they saw from Biden. Yes, well,

596
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: I think that we do spend too much on the military.

597
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: And I'm a member the Foreign Affairs Committee, and I'm

598
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: very h you know, plugged into what's going on with

599
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: Iran and North Korea and problem you know, Venezuela all

600
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: around the world. We need to have by far the biggest, strongest,

601
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: most up to date military in the world, no question.

602
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: I don't think we need to be bigger than the

603
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: next eight countries combined. And so, you know, we cutting

604
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,760
Speaker 1: the military by ten is a pretty modest thing when

605
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: you look at how it's grown immensely year after year

606
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: after year. The President is ending our twenty year involvement

607
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan is in terms of having our military there

608
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 1: on the ground, and you know, I think it's time

609
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: to make some pretty modest cuts to military spending to

610
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: enable US to take care of domestic spending and put

611
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: a bigger emphasis on diplomacy and human rights. Congressman, can

612
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: I ask you a twenty second question while we still

613
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: have you, because you're on for our affairs. When we

614
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: hear this news about astra Zenic of vaccine sixty million

615
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: going internationally, how much needs to focus on India in

616
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: particular and anywhere else you want to see those go. Yeah,

617
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 1: I think India is where they need to go right now.

618
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,399
Speaker 1: But I think the United States has a huge opportunity

619
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: here to step up and lead on vaccinating the whole world.

620
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: It's necessary for public health. It's also a great expression

621
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: of soft power for the United States. Congressman Andy Levin,

622
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: Democrat of Michigan, thank you so much for joining us.

623
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: That's gonna be it for today's show. Good Big Newsday.

624
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: Thanks again to Bloomberg Politics contributors Jeanie, shan Zano and

625
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 1: Rick Davis. For now, I'm Jack Fitzpatrick. This is Bloomberg