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Speaker 1: Hello there, Happy Thursday. I'm Chuck Todd. Welcome to another

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Speaker 1: episode of the Chuck Podcast. So, yes, the world is

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Speaker 1: on pins and easles as it waits for the American

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Speaker 1: President to tweet out what he wants to do in

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Speaker 1: the Middle East. And so at this point anybody that

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Speaker 1: thinks they know is just guessing. And you know, with Trump,

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Speaker 1: you actually just have to wait until he tweets. In

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Speaker 1: the meantime, though it's been ten years since we've been

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Speaker 1: living this way, this has been a week of anniversaries

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Speaker 1: that I think are worth marking. Right in June sixteenth,

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Speaker 1: ten year anniversary of Donald Trump descending down that escalator

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Speaker 1: on Trump Tower. And let's just say it's been a

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Speaker 1: transformational ten years for the Republican Party, for American politics,

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Speaker 1: for Washington, d C. For the global world order. It's

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Speaker 1: not been small. There was a moment in my recent

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Speaker 1: news Sphere conversation with Steve Bannon. By the way, a

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Speaker 1: free version of it is up on YouTube if you

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Speaker 1: want to check it out, where he turned to me

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Speaker 1: looking for some affirmation about an issue, and he asked,

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Speaker 1: he goes, well, you can see we are living in

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Speaker 1: the age of Trump. And I didn't hesitate because he's right.

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Speaker 1: I said yes, because we are. In fact, it's been

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Speaker 1: ten years since Donald Trump, right, since descended down those escalator,

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Speaker 1: and ten years since a reality TV host, a real

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Speaker 1: estate promoter entered the political bloodstream, and whatever you want

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Speaker 1: to call the moment performance art, populist, revolt, ego trip,

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Speaker 1: it has turned into something far more enduring. One flukey

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Speaker 1: win in the electoral college could have been chalked up

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Speaker 1: as an accident of history, and in fact, if he

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Speaker 1: had only one in sixteen and never come back, that

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Speaker 1: is how he would have been seen. An accident of history,

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Speaker 1: more like Jimmy Carter or somebody like that. But what's followed,

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Speaker 1: the staying power of Trump, the man, the movement, and

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Speaker 1: now the comeback, it's not an accident. It looks like

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Speaker 1: we're in the middle of a realignment. We're not talking

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Speaker 1: about a blip. We're talking about a decade, which means

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Speaker 1: we're probably going to be talking about a generation. You

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Speaker 1: might say he'll just be a chapter in the history books,

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Speaker 1: but I'd argue he'll be a long chapter. He's already

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Speaker 1: going to be a longer chapter than Grover Cleveland, the

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Speaker 1: last guy to serve non consecutive terms as president. He'll

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Speaker 1: be longer than most modern presidents because Trump didn't change

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Speaker 1: his party. He changed the job, he changed the expectations,

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Speaker 1: and he's changed the culture. And that's probably the biggest

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Speaker 1: impact he's made. In fact, Donald Trump's impact on American

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Speaker 1: politics in society is unlike anything I've seen in my lifetime.

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Speaker 1: It's greater than Obama, something I would not have conceded

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Speaker 1: three years ago. It's greater than Clinton. It's greater even

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Speaker 1: than Reagan. You probably have to go back to FDR

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Speaker 1: to find an American president who so thoroughly did a

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Speaker 1: couple of things. He redefined the boundaries of the presidency

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Speaker 1: and the shape of the national psyche. We haven't had

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Speaker 1: another president do that since then. So what have we

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Speaker 1: learned in the Trump decade. Well, for starters, simplicity beats nuance,

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Speaker 1: repetition beats reason, and attention any attention is more valuable

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Speaker 1: than accuracy or consistency. Trump didn't just break the rules.

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Speaker 1: He's figured out which ones were obsolete and which ones

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Speaker 1: nobody really enforced to begin with. He never cared about

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Speaker 1: the norms that Reagan, Clinton, or Obama at least pretended

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Speaker 1: to care. About there were guardrails that they respected when

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Speaker 1: they were in office. They may have bent certain things

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Speaker 1: to their will, but they sort of stayed in the lines.

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Speaker 1: But Trump never aspired to be presidential in the traditional sense.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't trying to impress the political class of the

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Speaker 1: press corps. He sort of resented them. He wanted their respect,

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Speaker 1: but only on his terms. And in a way, Trump's

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Speaker 1: always been running the same playbook, fake it till you

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Speaker 1: make it. In fact, it's why so many Americans gravitate

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Speaker 1: toward it. His fake it till you make mindset worked

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Speaker 1: worked in real estate. He didn't have any business developing

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Speaker 1: in Manhattan, but he figured out a way to develop

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Speaker 1: Trump Tower. That's how he got into the casino business.

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Speaker 1: It was a total failure in that. That's how he

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Speaker 1: got in the golf business. And he's also gotten into

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Speaker 1: politics this way. He's basically faked it till he's made it.

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Speaker 1: When he first ran in twenty sixteen, there were legitimate

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Speaker 1: questions about how much money he actually had. Now nearly

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Speaker 1: a decade later, he's a genuine multi billionaire because of politics,

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Speaker 1: not despite of it. And that's the Trump story. The

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Speaker 1: hustle became real, the myth made money. And if you

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Speaker 1: think that doesn't appeal to a certain kind of American voter,

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Speaker 1: you're missing the point that, in many ways is the

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Speaker 1: essence of the American dream. We may not like it

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Speaker 1: when people are phony and don't get there, but if

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Speaker 1: people are faking it and then they make it, we

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Speaker 1: weirdly respect it. So he turned charisma into a resume,

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Speaker 1: streets smarts into legitimacy, and it's a country that lionizes success,

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Speaker 1: even ill defined success. Trump looked like the guy who

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Speaker 1: gained the system and came out on top. And you

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Speaker 1: know how many Americans want to believe they can pull

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Speaker 1: that off to or want or wish they could. Quite

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Speaker 1: a few of them, quite a few of them.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: In many ways, Trump is unoriginal. He borrows slogans. Make

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Speaker 1: America Great wasn't his? America First wasn't his. He misremembers policy,

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Speaker 1: he pairents talking points, but he makes it all sound

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Speaker 1: like it's new, because for him, if he didn't see

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Speaker 1: somebody say it on TV, it didn't exist. Right, America First, Well,

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Speaker 1: that was uttered in the thirties. Nah, nobody said it

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Speaker 1: till I did. Well, nobody said it on TV till

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Speaker 1: he did. But here's the part that's much harder to

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Speaker 1: admit for some people. He's uniquely comfortable being the outsider

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Speaker 1: in charge. He's comfortable being disrespected. It's never rattled him.

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Speaker 1: In fact, it weirdly motive fates him. Just watch how

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Speaker 1: he carried himself with the G seven leaders earlier this week.

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Speaker 1: You could see it in his face. They don't like him,

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Speaker 1: they don't want to deal with them, but they have

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Speaker 1: no choice. Trump knows it, and in weird way, Trump

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Speaker 1: relishes it for him. That's victory. People have to bend

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Speaker 1: the knee. They have to deal with him, even though

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Speaker 1: he knows they don't want to, which is why he's like, eh,

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Speaker 1: I'll leave early. What do they care? What are they

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Speaker 1: going to do? Trash me behind my back? They were

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Speaker 1: going to trash me behind my back anyway, right. What's interesting, though,

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Speaker 1: is most political figures, even ones who are disrespected for

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Speaker 1: a while, when they claw their way into the establishment,

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Speaker 1: they actually want to stay establishment. They want to be

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Speaker 1: the establishment, but they want to conform to the establishment.

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Speaker 1: Not Trump. He broke in and then he said I'm

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Speaker 1: going to build my own establishment. At first, he tried

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Speaker 1: to bend the establishment to his Well, that didn't work

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Speaker 1: so fine. He built his own. He didn't just win power,

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Speaker 1: he rewrote who gets to wield it and how? And

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Speaker 1: he did it by changing the GOP first, the Republican Party.

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Speaker 1: Forget everything you thought you knew about the GOP before Trump.

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Speaker 1: He moved it away from it on free trade, away

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Speaker 1: from it on small government, and most significantly, away from

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Speaker 1: an untitledment reform. It's the single key ingredient to his success.

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Speaker 1: Trump told Republican voters, many of them working class and

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Speaker 1: reliant on the safety net from the government, that he

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Speaker 1: wouldn't touch those security Medicare, and Medicaid, and that promise

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Speaker 1: reshaped the Republican coalition. Why because he gave older blue

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Speaker 1: collar voters, many of whom did vote for Obama, did

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Speaker 1: vote for Bill Clinton, even if they weren't culturally comfortable

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Speaker 1: with either one of them. But Trump gave those same

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Speaker 1: voters a permission structure to join a party that now

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Speaker 1: echoed both their cultural anxieties without threatening their economic security.

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Speaker 1: That's not just political instinct, that's movement building. That one

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Speaker 1: move protecting and promising to protect entitlements because we're going

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Speaker 1: to have a debate whether they're really he's really doing

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Speaker 1: it with what he's doing with Medica, But the promise

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Speaker 1: of it mattered a whole hell of a lot. It

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Speaker 1: did more than realign the GOP than any think tank

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Speaker 1: white paper tax plaan ever could. Trump didn't win on policy.

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Speaker 1: He went on defiance, on saying what others wouldn't, on

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Speaker 1: refusing to speak the political language everyone else had been

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Speaker 1: fluent in for decades. He turned politics into performance, grievance

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Speaker 1: into identity, outrage into strategy. But that kind of coalition

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Speaker 1: is hard to grow. It's built on personal loyalty, and

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Speaker 1: it can fracture quite easily. We're sort of seeing that

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Speaker 1: right now with the arandabate inside the MAGA movement. Would

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Speaker 1: a Trump here's something to think about. Would a Trump

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Speaker 1: with Reagan's discipline and high character have kept the GOP

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Speaker 1: more unified? Or is Trump's chaos the feature, not the bug.

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Speaker 1: It's an unanswerable question because Trump is who he is.

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Speaker 1: Here's what we do.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: Trump's style of politics has changed the way the country

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Speaker 1: relates to the presidency itself, even the ceremonial parts of

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Speaker 1: the job. The White House visits the national moments of unity.

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Speaker 1: They're all political flashpoints. A military parade politicized, a visit

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Speaker 1: by a sports team, or a boycott by a sports

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Speaker 1: team politicized. He's turned by partisanship into betrayal, and the

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Speaker 1: opposition is starting to adopt that same posture as well.

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Speaker 1: That's the real virus of trump Ism, and it's not

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Speaker 1: just in his party anymore. It is everywhere. Because Trump

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Speaker 1: doesn't just polarize with what he says, He polarizes with

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Speaker 1: what he represents. Obama, Clinton, even Reagan, they all left

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Speaker 1: room for neutrality. Trump forces you to choose, pick a side,

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Speaker 1: and if you're not with him, you must be against him.

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Speaker 1: And he needs to fight more than he needs the win.

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Speaker 1: And that's the real damage. He's dehumanized disagreement. Just look

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Speaker 1: at the conversation online, maybe look at the comments right now.

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Speaker 1: He's made cruelty a political strategy. He turned scandal into branding,

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Speaker 1: and he's trained millions of voters to care more about

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Speaker 1: owning the other side than improving their own lives. People

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Speaker 1: seem to love if somebody else is mad about a

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Speaker 1: political decision. People revel in other people's suffering. Right now,

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Speaker 1: not everybody, but a strong contingent online, just as based

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Speaker 1: Mike Lee right. And yet there's some lessons here that

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Speaker 1: everybody can learn. We learn that political disengagement comes with

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Speaker 1: a cost. That anger, however toxic, is a form of

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Speaker 1: political participation. And our system did get too distant, too arrogant,

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Speaker 1: too slow to notice how disillusion the public could become.

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Speaker 1: Trump didn't cause all of that, He capitalized on it.

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Speaker 1: And until the system truly reforms, or until another leader

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Speaker 1: emergences who can offer the same feeling of being seen

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Speaker 1: that Trumpism has, then trump Ism is going to continue

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Speaker 1: to linger. His legacy won't be erased by an election.

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Speaker 1: It'll fade only when voters decide it no longer delivers.

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Speaker 1: And maybe that's how it'll end, not with a landslide,

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Speaker 1: not with a courtroom verdict, but with exhaustion. Trump may

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Speaker 1: wear out as welcome or he may overstay it, but

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Speaker 1: the culture he built that's going to shape American politics,

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Speaker 1: probably for the rest of my life. I'm fifty three.

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Speaker 1: I don't expect this to move past this era in

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Speaker 1: my lifetime, and I'd like to think I'll make it

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Speaker 1: to my nineties. I think we'll see. I got a

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Speaker 1: grandmother still going at ninety eight, God bless her, and

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Speaker 1: we'll see. But the culture he built, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be around a while. So this isn't just the Trump era.

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Speaker 1: It's been a decade of Trump and we're still figuring

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Speaker 1: out how we're going to survive it, because that is

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Speaker 1: going to be the legacy. How the Trump era ends

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Speaker 1: will say as much about us as a country as

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Speaker 1: it does about him and the Republican Party. How do

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Speaker 1: we choose to end the Trump arrow or turn the

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Speaker 1: page from the Trump earrow? It's going to say a

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Speaker 1: lot about us. It wasn't the only anniversary we had

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Speaker 1: this week. There were two others that I want to

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Speaker 1: make a quicker note of. Look, I think this one

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Speaker 1: on Trump. You know we're going to debate all of this.

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Speaker 1: I look, he doesn't have a huge number of policy achievements, right,

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Speaker 1: there's not You have a new deal with FDR, You're

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Speaker 1: not going to have that with Trump. His What he's

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Speaker 1: changed is the public's right now is the public's relationship

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Speaker 1: with politics with elected officials. He's changed the style of politics,

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Speaker 1: He's changed the culture perhaps of the country. The question

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Speaker 1: is how long does that last? And I think you

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Speaker 1: know when you've succeeded for ten years. It's likely it

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Speaker 1: takes at least another ten or fifteen to move away

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Speaker 1: from it. So that was June sixteenth, right, that's the

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Speaker 1: ten year anniversary. June seventeenth. I'm going to pluck out

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Speaker 1: two anniversaries there because they're huge anniversaries in the history

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Speaker 1: of media and in the legacy and trajectory of where

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Speaker 1: media went. June seventeenth, nineteen seventy two was the day

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Speaker 1: of the Watergate burglary. Believe it or not, by total happenstance,

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Speaker 1: actually had a source meeting. I had a drink meeting.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think I was not alcoholic, for what

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Speaker 1: it's worth, but it wouldn't matter if it was all right,

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Speaker 1: no judging at the Watergate hotel. By the way you

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Speaker 1: come to DC, they've redone it. It's terrific. It's modern

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Speaker 1: its hip. It doesn't look like the nineteen seventies. But

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Speaker 1: what that did to journalism, what that did to the relationship.

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Speaker 1: You know, the entire campaign slogan on the right of

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Speaker 1: media bias, of left wing media bias, and all of

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Speaker 1: this that the media is somehow against conservatives. That was

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Speaker 1: all manufactured by supporters of Nixon, including two that still

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Speaker 1: linger in today's media environment today. Roger Ales was a

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Speaker 1: young aide to Richard Nixon watching all of this. Roger

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Speaker 1: Stone was in the College Republicans and also a Nixon acolyte,

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Speaker 1: and they both sort of grew up in this resentment

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Speaker 1: culture and anger over how Nixon was treated and all

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Speaker 1: of the blame because it was the Washington Post was

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Speaker 1: the only outlet for the longest time reporting on what

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Speaker 1: was happening with Watergate, became this that somehow was the

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Speaker 1: media out to get Nixon, not the fact that Nixon

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Speaker 1: did everything that he did and people in his name

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Speaker 1: did the things that they did, the abuse of power,

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Speaker 1: the abuse of government, things like that, but it created

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Speaker 1: I mean, Roger Ales essentially turned that grievance and he

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Speaker 1: spent the rest of his life talking to that segment

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Speaker 1: of the population. There was always about thirty to thirty

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Speaker 1: five percent that's duck by Nixon, and and that thirty

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Speaker 1: five percent has been messaged to that the media did this,

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Speaker 1: they were in cahoots with the Democrats. And it has

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Speaker 1: been the same frankly tired messaging that has come from

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Speaker 1: the right, and it's some it's been successful It's raised

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Speaker 1: multiple generations of Republicans to believe this is fact that

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Speaker 1: they mistake press neutrality with press antagonism. You know that

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Speaker 1: the fact that you know, most of us conduct ourselves

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Speaker 1: as professional skeptics, that somehow that's only that we somehow

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Speaker 1: are always treating one side better than the other. What

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Speaker 1: I always say is, if you don't like the negative stories,

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Speaker 1: maybe don't do so many negatives. Don't do many so

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Speaker 1: many things that make it easy to write negative stories.

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Speaker 1: You know, it may be that not people aren't looking

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Speaker 1: for negativity. Maybe you're doing stuff that's unpopular. But it's

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Speaker 1: an important anniversary, and it had one other weird impact

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Speaker 1: that I actually think has been detrimental to service journalism.

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Speaker 1: You know, as you know you've heard me, I've been

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Speaker 1: beating a dead horse about trying to figure out how

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Speaker 1: we can fix local news because I do believe the

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Speaker 1: law local news is different from national news. National news

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Speaker 1: never have national media never really had trust. We're too

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Speaker 1: far away, too distant. Local media gave national media its credibility,

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Speaker 1: its trust local media. Local journalism is served at its

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Speaker 1: best is helping you live your life right. But the

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Speaker 1: success of Woodward and Bernstein created a couple of generations

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Speaker 1: of journalist, of journalists who thought the only you're not

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Speaker 1: a successful journalist if you're not doing taking somebody down

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Speaker 1: with accountability journalism, And we sort of lost the art

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Speaker 1: of the community side of journalism, of the fact that

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Speaker 1: the service part of it, the helping you live your

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Speaker 1: life part of it. We disrespected it as an industry.

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Speaker 1: So of course everybody gravitated towards being in the more

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Speaker 1: supposedly consequential side of journalism. Well, all that did was

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Speaker 1: create you know, if everybody does antagonistic journalism and nobody's

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Speaker 1: doing service journalism, then you see why people are just

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Speaker 1: view the media more negatively. They don't have the positive

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Speaker 1: interactions that they once did. Richard Gingras, who is in

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Speaker 1: the Google News Initiative for a long time, he just

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Speaker 1: recently left. He's written very eloquently on this, but he's

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Speaker 1: one of those things. He's one of those people that

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Speaker 1: believes that the movie All the President's Men did a

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Speaker 1: disservice and sort of made, you know, sort of reoriented

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Speaker 1: journalism in a way that made people think you're not

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Speaker 1: a successful journalist if you're not breaking a Watergate like story.

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Speaker 1: When if you're keeping your community informed, if you're keeping

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Speaker 1: them together, if you're helping people live their lives and

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Speaker 1: navigate your community. You're just as important as the journalists

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Speaker 1: who maybe gets a book deal because because they were,

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Speaker 1: you know, doggedly digging into, digging into things that they

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Speaker 1: thought wasn't on the up and up. Like in anything

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Speaker 1: in life, you need a balance. And the media diet

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Speaker 1: is not balanced right now, and it's certainly something I'm

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Speaker 1: hoping to rebalance and staying on my media theme, June

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Speaker 1: seventeenth is also an anniversary of perhaps the single worst decision.

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Speaker 1: It was the impetus of the single worst decision any

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Speaker 1: news organization has ever made, because it it created fall

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Speaker 1: on effects. And you've probably some of you have heard

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Speaker 1: me on this soapbox before. It's of course June seventeenth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four was the infamous Bronco chase O. J. Simpson,

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Speaker 1: perhaps the greatest media feeding frenzy of my lifetime. And

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Speaker 1: I still don't think there's anything that has topped it.

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Speaker 1: Trump's indictments don't top it. Trump in court, Trump's mugshot

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Speaker 1: nowhere close to what OJ was. If you're if you're

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Speaker 1: obviously if you're you're under the age of thirty five,

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Speaker 1: you don't really you probably don't really have an experience

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Speaker 1: and understood what OJ meant. But if you're forty plus,

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Speaker 1: you remember, and if you're fifty plus, you really remember

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Speaker 1: because you were young adults. I was a young adult

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Speaker 1: in ninety four. And here's what you know. My favorite

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Speaker 1: moment actually about this anniversary when when OJ died in

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Speaker 1: twenty three, in the fall of twenty twenty three, it

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Speaker 1: happened to be in the He died on a day

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Speaker 1: that I happened to be teaching a class for USC

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Speaker 1: in DC and the Washington DC program. For USC, of course,

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Speaker 1: USC being OJ's alma mater, I thought, okay, I'm scrapping

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Speaker 1: the lesson planning. This is the class that I teach

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Speaker 1: how Washington works, I'm scrapping it. We're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the impact of OJ on our media ecosystem and

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Speaker 1: how we're all paying our price today. But before I knew,

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Speaker 1: I was dealing with twenty one twenty two year olds.

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Speaker 1: So of course I knew they weren't eve born when

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Speaker 1: the OJ thing happened, So I was curious what they knew. Right,

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Speaker 1: this was their USC, This you know, Ojy's the most

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Speaker 1: infamous obviously person they ever go to USCA these days, right,

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Speaker 1: And so I asked him, so, what do you know

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Speaker 1: about OJ and the I'm giving And two of my

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Speaker 1: students said, isn't he Chloe Kardashian's father? And of course,

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Speaker 1: you know, I put my head in my hands. You're like, ah,

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Speaker 1: that's right, the goddamn Kardashians, right, the Kardashians, their origin

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Speaker 1: story begins with Bob Kardashian, their late father, who was

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Speaker 1: OJ's personal attorney, who was famous. On that day, on

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Speaker 1: June seventeenth, he basically read what it sounded like a

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Speaker 1: suicide note from OJ on national television. If you want

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Speaker 1: to go relive that moment, there's a terrific ESPN thirty

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Speaker 1: for thirty documentary just on that day, June seventeenth. Everything

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Speaker 1: that was going on that day. There was a Stanley

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Speaker 1: Cup parade, celebration parade for the New York Rangers the

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Speaker 1: last time, by the way, the New York Rangers won

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Speaker 1: the Stanley Cup and at that time it was the

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Speaker 1: first time they'd won in some forty years. It was

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Speaker 1: a US Open day, it was a third it was

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Speaker 1: you know, Arnold Palmer, I think was playing his last

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Speaker 1: ever US Open. Kay Griffy Junior hit three home runs

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Speaker 1: that day and that was, you know, seen as a

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Speaker 1: big deal. We were, of course, in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the NBA Finals, and this documentary does such a great

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Speaker 1: job of sort of reliving the moment. You have Tom

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Speaker 1: Broke on Bob Costas NBC Da Da Da Da Da

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Speaker 1: Da Da da, right, had had the NBA Finals and

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Speaker 1: and sort of the break ins where literally the OJ

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Speaker 1: chase was. They did a picture and picture, except the

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Speaker 1: basketball game was in the small corner and the OJ

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Speaker 1: chase was in the big part of the screen. But

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Speaker 1: I wanted to bring it up because you know, the

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Speaker 1: anniversaries the chase, and I've always defended the television coverage

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Speaker 1: in the first week or two of oj Okay it

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Speaker 1: was this incredible story. Everybody was. It was jaw dropping,

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Speaker 1: you know. I tried to explain to people, try to

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Speaker 1: explain to my son. It's as if and I say this, please,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is not don't aggregate me, right, But

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Speaker 1: it would have been like if Peyton Manning had done this.

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Speaker 1: Like Peyton Manning's beloved figure in both the sports and

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Speaker 1: media and sort of zeit, guys, we all love Peyton Manning. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's how OJ was. And by the way, like Peyton

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Speaker 1: Manning today. OJ was in every ad. OJ was in movies,

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Speaker 1: he was in shows like everybody loved OJ. So that's

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Speaker 1: why it was such a shock to the system. No

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Speaker 1: way OJ could do this. He's our guy. We all

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Speaker 1: love OJ. So the first couple of weeks of frenzy

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Speaker 1: perfectly explainable. But then something happened that I think did

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Speaker 1: enormous damage to my industry. Somebody must have figured out

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Speaker 1: that we had a couple of cable channels. At the time.

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Speaker 1: There was only one twenty four hour news channel was

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Speaker 1: seeing it. There was no Fox yet, no MSNBC if

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Speaker 1: they did not exist. Both of those channels came in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six ninety four. The only other quasi sort

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Speaker 1: of news and information channel was something called Court TV,

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Speaker 1: and court TV is exactly what you think it was.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it really exists now. Maybe it does

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Speaker 1: in some form. My apologies if it does to my

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Speaker 1: friends at court TV. My friend Savannah got three got

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Speaker 1: her start on Court TV. We love court TV and

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Speaker 1: court TV. Just that no cameras in the courtroom. We're

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Speaker 1: going to show you a trial, you know, and if

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Speaker 1: there's a famous trolley, Well, somebody at CNN noticed a

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Speaker 1: court TV was covering all the initial arraignments and CNN wasn't,

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Speaker 1: And so court TV was covering every part of it.

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Speaker 1: And guess what many viewers were doing. They were flocking

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Speaker 1: to court TV. So CNN said, woo, why are we

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Speaker 1: letting them have it? Why don't we do it too? Well,

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Speaker 1: then basically for six months they covered the trial. They

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Speaker 1: didn't cover anything else.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I'm not going to sit there and say they

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Speaker 1: didn't cover any other news, but it was sort of

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Speaker 1: like perfunctory all right, you know, literally you're just watching

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Speaker 1: the oj trial. Then if there was a break, hey,

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Speaker 1: here's some other headlines today, but not until we get

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Speaker 1: our panel of x birts to tell you about it.

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Speaker 1: If you're ever wondering how Greta Ansstron got her start

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Speaker 1: in media, she's at some point hosted a show I

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Speaker 1: think got four different news channels at this point. God

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Speaker 1: bless her staying power. But her original origin story. She

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Speaker 1: was one of the first legal analysts that was hired

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Speaker 1: by CNN, and she became famous and then they gave

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Speaker 1: her a show and then you know, you can follow

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Speaker 1: her career from there. OJ launched a lot of careers.

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Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, but here's what the CNN decision did.

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Speaker 1: So CNN decides to go wall to wall with OJ

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Speaker 1: to the detriment of other news. CNN makes a boatload

425
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: of money doing this. It's a great business decision. Other

426
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,640
Speaker 1: news organizations were like kind of jealous, right Today's Show

427
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: or Good Morning America. They could do a lot of OJ,

428
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: but they couldn't go wall to wall. They weren't doing that.

429
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 1: There was no other news channels at the time. But

430
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: CNA made a boatload of money, and within eighteen months

431
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 1: of that trial ending, both NBC and Fox decide to

432
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 1: start cable channels. I don't think because they thought there

433
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: was more twenty four hour news to report. They saw

434
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 1: what having that having that channel meant in a story

435
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: like OJ, and they saw much money CNMA and they

436
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: wanted a piece of that pie. And it did one

437
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: other thing before nineteen ninety four and the OJ Simpson

438
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: news organizations, particularly in the in the mainstream media traditional media,

439
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: however you want to classified, in the TV side of things,

440
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: they you know, as much as you may think ratings,

441
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 1: you know, drove everything, They didn't drive everythings. News divisions

442
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 1: were told just don't lose money. You don't have to

443
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: make money, just don't lose money. OJ comes along and

444
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 1: seeing them makes a bunch of money. And so what

445
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: happened was a lot of media executives who were not

446
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: journalists first, but they were being counters first or you know,

447
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 1: looking for profit centers. They said, hey, if you make

448
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: the news interesting, you can make money on the news.

449
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: And I would argue that after that, that's how we

450
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: became so narrative driven, right, And you know, I think

451
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 1: with it, OJ basically has started reality television mainstream, the

452
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: idea of having reality TV. It was the ultimate reality

453
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: TV show that everybody watched for about eighteen months. We

454
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: got a second season when there was a civil trial,

455
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: and then it was really the explosion of then Reality

456
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: TV Survivor and all that stuff launches pretty quickly right

457
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: after then. And then of course by nineteen ninety nine

458
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: you get a guy named Donald Trump and The Apprentice.

459
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: I think it was right two thousand and two, right

460
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 1: two thousand and one on that.

461
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 2: But.

462
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: It planted to see that if you make information interesting

463
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: enough that you ought to use news to entertain people too,

464
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: And it really sort of I think changed the notion

465
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: of television news to infotainment, particularly cable news. And if

466
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 1: you're just looking for when was the initial where where's

467
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 1: the four in the road? I believe the fork in

468
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: the road began on June seventeenth, nineteen ninety four. All right,

469
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: there's my little anniversary history lessons this week. You know,

470
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: I'm sort of some of you have known me a

471
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: long time ago. Oh you did your OWJ hobby Horse, Yes,

472
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 1: I did, and every once in a while I'm gonna

473
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: do it again, especially to my new listeners here. I

474
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: hope I would love if you've not heard my that

475
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: rant before. I'd love to hear your feedback on this.

476
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: Happy to answer questions, drop a line, whatever it is.

477
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 1: By the way, I got a terrific guess coming up.

478
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: It's Mark Leebovich. She's a long time I think he's

479
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: probably one of the best profile writers in Washington. He

480
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: wrote the very fun book This Town That sort of

481
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: and then he did a second part this sort of

482
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: like how the insular nature of sort of celebrity Washington,

483
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: And he did it with a he did it. He

484
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: Mark Leibovich can turn a phrase and make you cry

485
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: if he's turning that phrase on you. He also wrote

486
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: a terrific book about the NFL as well. So, needless

487
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: to say, Libo and I have known each other a

488
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: long time. He's now at The Atlantic doing some great work.

489
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: We actually begin on a topic that I've talked with

490
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: you before about a piece he wrote last week, which

491
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 1: is why one of the reasons why I wanted to

492
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: have a conversation with him, which is about, you know,

493
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 1: how much how much should Obama be involved in helping

494
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party in this moment, right, you know, should

495
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 1: he be spilling the vacuum or not. So that's how

496
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: we begin our conversation sort of. But Lebo and I

497
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: have known each other a long time, so I hope

498
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: you enjoy eavesdropping on us doing a little s talking

499
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: to each other back and forth and talking politics, the

500
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: current areas, and a little Seattle SuperSonics basketball.

501
00:28:52,600 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 3: Enjoy joining me now is a longtime friend, probably one

502
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 3: of the best profile writers we have in the American

503
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 3: journalism world these days.

504
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: He hangs his hat at The Atlantic. It's Mark Leebovich.

505
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: He's also author of numerous books, two of which I've enjoyed,

506
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: one on the NFL and one about Washington, d C.

507
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: That is both still relevant and obsolete all at the

508
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: same time, which I would love to talk with him about.

509
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 2: Right, you join the other books.

510
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: You just like the first two books on my head.

511
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: That's right, you know it's the first two. I remember

512
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: which ones? Do you say? What are the first two?

513
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: You say, all books to both authors, and I have

514
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: two books. And you do feel this way. Every book

515
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: is a child, right, and you you love all your

516
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: children equally, no matter what other people think of your children, right,

517
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: you love your children and books because there it is

518
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: that difficult to put one together, right, And every time

519
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: I've gone through and I'm like, why did I go

520
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: through this process?

521
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: Oh?

522
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, everything? In fact, I was just yeah, no, no,

523
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 4: that's that's a whole other discussion. But no, there's there's

524
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 4: a level of Well, first of all, I had the

525
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 4: two most successful books were both the Washington books. There

526
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 4: was one basically This Tone, which was about Washington, and

527
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 4: then there was basically This Towne for the Trump era,

528
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 4: which Trump era was over, which was twenty it ended

529
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 4: in twenty Whenever it was twenty twenty one and that

530
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 4: you know, both did really really well, but you know,

531
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 4: in political circles people read those. But the NFL book,

532
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 4: which was a bestseller, but it was like one of

533
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 4: those tow touch bestsellers, like it was number thirteen for

534
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 4: one week, and I can zambell there. That is a

535
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 4: niche because people who know me and who I know

536
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:44,479
Speaker 4: and who I kind of want to be friends with

537
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 4: who have read it will come up to me and like,

538
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 4: I've never heard of them, but they're like in the

539
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 4: airports and like my kind of yeah, but I'm kind

540
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 4: of out throwing myself or bro outing myself or something

541
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 4: like that. But yeah, so and then then the other

542
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 4: two books were anthology, so does that count really?

543
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: I don't know how I feel about anthologies. It's like

544
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: our friend Tony Korneiser, what is he's like, you know,

545
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: he named one of his anthology books like just like

546
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: I need more money or something of what it was, like.

547
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 2: Tony can get away with that.

548
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 4: No, it's basically, you should try to get paid as

549
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 4: much as possible for doing the same work.

550
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, I was I'm back for more money or

551
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: something like that is sequel to his anthology of College money.

552
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: I want to let you know it's funny. I I

553
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: remember the first time I realized authors did this. I

554
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: think it was a George Will book and I realized,

555
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I've read half of these. I read, like,

556
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: what did you do to me? And you pitched this

557
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: as if it was new Uh. Then again, I read

558
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: every single Hunter Thompson anthology of his colleagues from the

559
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: San Francisco Examiner days and all that, and those were amazing.

560
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: Even though they were crazy, I was glad they existed,

561
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: you know.

562
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and okay, and I'm not comparing myself to anyone,

563
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 4: but there are young journalists who say, hey, I just

564
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 4: picked up a copy of Citizens of the Green Room.

565
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 4: I'm like, really, I mean that would that's thoughts like

566
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 4: stuff that had been published in the New York Times,

567
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 4: posts that have already been paid for because I wrote

568
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 4: it on I shouldn't say this, that wud. But yeah,

569
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 4: and then I got someone slapped them together and gave

570
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 4: me like easy money and an introduction, and that was

571
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 4: But like, you know, they weren't alive and like twenty

572
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 4: years ago, or they were you know, there were kids

573
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 4: in twenty years so they read it all absolutely No.

574
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: Absolutely. By the way, I love the uh your homage

575
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: to the Oklahoma City thunder. You know how many people

576
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: realize that that is a super Seattle SuperSonics, not Sonics,

577
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: the SuperSonics. Right.

578
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 4: Oh, yes, Well we're getting the generational niche like left

579
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 4: and right, Chuck. But I appreciate that because this is

580
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 4: our safe.

581
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: Space, middle aged white guys. This is like, you know,

582
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: I'm not.

583
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 2: Even middle age.

584
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 4: I don't know if you are either, but I'm like,

585
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 4: I turned sixty last month, and that.

586
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: Don't impress me. I'm smack dab in middle age. I'm

587
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: not early fifties anymore. I'm middle fifties. Uh you know,

588
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: I'm empty nested now. My third kid's going to college. Yeah.

589
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: Should I show you my cat over here?

590
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,239
Speaker 1: I got a catock sitting over here?

591
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 2: Hey, Hi, you really are?

592
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: You really are? Obviously. At some point I think people

593
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: are going to want us to talk about the current

594
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: political situation.

595
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 2: Yes, can I just talk about thunder?

596
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: But I do want to get to the thunder first.

597
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm kind of this. It's kind of an interesting

598
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 4: finals both.

599
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: You know, by the way, it's likely we'll already know

600
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: that the Oakland Sidney Thunder has won the NBA Finals

601
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: by the Heirs. I mean I think you actually, no

602
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: Sundays would be Game seven. We're taping on the Tuesday. Now,

603
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: this will this will probably hit before then. But first

604
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: of all, this is like be over Thursday. I love

605
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: the Seattle SuperSonics. I resent that they don't exist anymore.

606
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a terrible injustice. Who do you blame?

607
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: Are you?

608
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 2: Are you? HOWI?

609
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, the real Seattle fans all

610
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: blame the Starbucks guy. They all blame Howard Schult who,

611
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: by the way, remember when he ran for president for

612
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: like ten seconds?

613
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, a lot of people got rich off of that.

614
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: Yes they did, but guess what they did. They cashed

615
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: in and none of them are doing anything in the

616
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 1: world of politics today. Though that there was a there

617
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: was a price that came with that cash.

618
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, although I think a lot of them had

619
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 4: other penalty that came with the There are other reasons

620
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 4: having to do with various you know, life circumstances. I

621
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 4: think I don't disagree circumstances, Yeah.

622
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,439
Speaker 1: Which also may be why they were available for Howard

623
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,399
Speaker 1: Schultz to hire them. Correct, correct, But you do blame him, right,

624
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: because there it wasn't as if the community of Seattle

625
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: didn't want to support an NBA team anymore.

626
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 2: A great sports town. It's a great Seahouse team, a

627
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 2: Mariners game.

628
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: Terrific, Huskies look, University of Washington you dubbed.

629
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 4: Phenomenal, phenomenal. I feel I have great feelings about.

630
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 1: Seattle now, and they're going to get an NBA team.

631
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: I mean it's pretty clear Vegas, right, Vegas and Seattle.

632
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 1: And then I assume that means and I'm obsessed with

633
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: geographic alignment in our sports, like it tries to be

634
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: crazy when we don't find thing to be obsessed with.

635
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: So I assume that means we move Memphis and New

636
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: Orleans into the Eastern Conference. If you're going to add

637
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: a Seattle in a Vegas, right, doesn't that isn't that

638
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: the easiest thing to do?

639
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 2: Yeah? Totally, totally.

640
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 4: I mean, you know you could argue, I mean, I

641
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 4: don't there are certain franchises that probably shouldn't exist in

642
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,879
Speaker 4: retrospect geographically, you know, whether they're any good?

643
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: Like, who do you get rid of? I'm not sure

644
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: I'm there. I take your I would have agreed with

645
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: you ten years ago. But how would you shrink the

646
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 1: NBA now? I don't know. If I would, you'd have

647
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: to Milwaukee would be one you, you might say, except

648
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: they love the bus there in the books. So I

649
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: think it's a pretty successful franchise. I don't know what's

650
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: a good question.

651
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 4: I mean, I think in retrospect it might have been

652
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 4: misguided to give Brooklyn a franchise.

653
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: Okay, the Nets are a problem, there's no doubt. But

654
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: is that a ownership situation? Right? Should New York the

655
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: should the should the tri state area be able to

656
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 1: support two franchises?

657
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 4: I would argue theoretically maybe, I mean they did a

658
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 4: better job. I mean they had more identity when they're

659
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 4: in the New Jersey Nets, although I would argue that

660
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 4: should have existed that way either. I think possibly the

661
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 4: Brooklyn Nets should be known as the New York Nets

662
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 4: the way they used to do in the ABA, and

663
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 4: just have two teams, like you'd have the Mets and

664
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 4: the Yankees, or you'd have the Jets and the Giants,

665
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 4: and you know, you don't have to sort of ghetto

666
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 4: wise it into Brooklyn. I mean, the Dodgers have their

667
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 4: own kind of history and that goes way back, but

668
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, I think Brooklyn's an issue.

669
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: Well, where are you in Sacramento.

670
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: Right? The history there, it's the only franchise.

671
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: I guess the A's are there for short of there.

672
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 4: Now, yeah, I'm I think you can make a case

673
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 4: for sucking that into Golden State.

674
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 2: I mean, Golden State's big. I don't know, I mean,

675
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: I don't.

676
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 1: I hate the name of Golden State. It should be

677
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: the same.

678
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: I know it's weird, right, just call it the San

679
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 2: Francisco Warrior. I mean, you know.

680
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: The dumbest that there were like three very bad name

681
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: you know, there was a Now I'm gonna go off

682
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: on a tangent. One was the decision to call them

683
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 1: by the California Angels. That was a mistake from the

684
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: although they actually were the La Angels. Then they went

685
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: to the California Angels. Now they wished the Angels, but anyway.

686
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: The other was Wayne Heysenger's decision to call them the

687
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 1: Florida Marlins rather than the Miami Marlins. They get I

688
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: think get made that, you guys, impossible to fix. I

689
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: mean lose an identity. Miami is an identity that is

690
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: wholly separate from the state of Florida. And it's something

691
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 1: Broward County resident Wayne heyinga never fully appreciated dr study.

692
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 2: So in that vein the New England Patriots a terrible

693
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: decision when.

694
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 1: Once again yes and that was a failed franchise until

695
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: craft Bottom.

696
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,320
Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, but they should just just give a city,

697
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 4: give it a location that people feel good about.

698
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, I want them Providence Patriots.

699
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 4: You and I both know that Yost super Bowls one

700
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 4: of the super Bowls.

701
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 2: I was for the Assume my football book. I the

702
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 2: Patriots were in it.

703
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 4: And during media day I pulled like ten members of

704
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 4: the actual Patriots asked them if they could name the

705
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 4: six New England states and only one could, Like I

706
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 4: was getting like Delawares and like New Jerseys.

707
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: Well where I'm where do you put New York? But

708
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: where is New York part of New England or not?

709
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: In your mind? See? I think parts of New York

710
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: are New England.

711
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 4: Culturally, Yes, Red Sox and Patriots fans and look up

712
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 4: right they're all over.

713
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: Uh you know the Plattsburgh media market right, yes?

714
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 2: Which, yeah, you know what I wish I had worked

715
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,240
Speaker 2: in the Platsford media market.

716
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 4: If I were in TV. That would be where I'd

717
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 4: like to start anyway. Politics, Sorry, no, And weren't we

718
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 4: going to have the Hartford Patriots. Wasn't that the last

719
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 4: gas Craft before they sold it to Craft?

720
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, because that was the guy who was the guy

721
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: who owned them before Craft.

722
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 2: He No, that was like Victor ki Am And yes.

723
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: It was Victor. Wasn't he going to move him to Hartford? No?

724
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: Craft was, but he was just using them to get it.

725
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

726
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 4: So yeah, the governor I guess was John Rowland was

727
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 4: completely screwed over by the crabs and whatever. It made

728
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 4: a lot of Jets and Giants fans in the heart.

729
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: So there's a there's a lot of directions we can

730
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: go on politics, but let's go with your Obama piece,

731
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: because I was both in agreement and in disagreement with

732
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 1: it almost simultaneously, and in fact, I I I think

733
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 1: the fact that I look at it this way, you

734
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:43,359
Speaker 1: wrote about Obama and Democrats were quick to return your

735
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: calls to say, yeah, where the hell is he? Because

736
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: there's such a vacuum of leadership meaning and I do

737
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: believe if Obama were more involved, the conversation would be

738
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: why is Obama so involved? Still he needs to step aside, right, Like,

739
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, the as much as I

740
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: agree the party desperately needs a leader like Obama again, yeah,

741
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 1: I don't you know, I don't know if you can

742
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: hire Bill Belichick to coach the Patriots again my drift? Right?

743
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: You know, well, I know maybe that's a bad example,

744
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: but how about bring Joe Tory back to fix you

745
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: know something or bring you know and look at how

746
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: many teams have tried it, right, you bring a Joe

747
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 1: Gibbs back and and yeah, it is a bloomberg third term.

748
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes I think we you know, the memory

749
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 1: is always better than the reality.

750
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 4: Well, no question, and it's it's a good analogy. It's

751
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 4: not a great analogy. I mean one obviously Obama's not

752
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 4: not coming back to round anything.

753
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: I mean for any Well, I always joke if Trump

754
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: finds a way to run for a third term, well

755
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: that's let's then let's go, right, let's have this, I

756
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: mean the super Bowl of unconstitutional of of elections Obama Trump, right.

757
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: And I mean the story is basically John don King.

758
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: How much money would don King get for that pay

759
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: per view? The political pay Well, we're basically a.

760
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 2: Don king political pay per view era anyway, right, so

761
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: it would be perfect.

762
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: No, it is right out of absolutely we are living

763
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:08,959
Speaker 1: that world.

764
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 2: We're living that exactly.

765
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 1: No.

766
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 4: I mean, I think you're right about everything. I mean,

767
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 4: I get all the arguments about Obama. The thing about

768
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 4: Obama is, I mean, yes, it's a vacuum. He is

769
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 4: he could no one would care about any of this

770
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 4: if the Democrats actually had some semblance of a leader,

771
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 4: or if there was excitement about.

772
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: Now I kind of blame Obama for the current vacuum.

773
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't buy the whole life. I thank you

774
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 2: because he didn't room the next genera.

775
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: I never bought that interesting, So you don't buy that.

776
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: But you think he ought to meet the moment.

777
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 4: Now, I don't think I remember saying that. Some of

778
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 4: the same the axel Rode like during Obama's I think

779
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 4: second term or something, is like, hey, what about everyone's

780
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 4: saying that Obama has not groomed the next generation of

781
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,439
Speaker 4: democratic leadership and brought them into his administrata And Axelrod said,

782
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 4: you know what, we have enough to do besides being

783
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 4: in a job fair for the Democratic Party or something.

784
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: You know what, I guess what? But he was wrong.

785
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: I take everybody's point, but in hindsight, it was wrong.

786
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden should have been escorted out

787
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: of the leadership ranks, and the only person that could

788
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: have done that was Barack Obama. And instead of escorting

789
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: them out, he actually stepped aside and allowed them access.

790
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 4: Well, he actually, I mean, he obviously had more respect

791
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,720
Speaker 4: for Hillary. He actually thought that more capable, she was younger,

792
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 4: she had a better political brand, and yeah, Democrats are

793
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 4: feeling so good about themselves. Then they just figured, okay,

794
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 4: well it's Hillary's turn to make history. You know, the

795
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 4: Democrats have you know, given us out the first African

796
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 4: American president, so let's do the first woman and then

797
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 4: we'll move on from there.

798
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: And then, well, that was the mistake. I do think Democrats,

799
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:48,240
Speaker 1: you know, I always thought, you know, Obama, Obama wasn't

800
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: you know, Obama wasn't necessarily a believer in the identity politics, right,

801
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: even though and I think he didn't believe he succeeded

802
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: based on identity politics as much as everybody around him

803
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 1: believed he succeeded around identity politics. I think one of

804
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: the in hindsight, the entire Democratic consultant class of the

805
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: early teens totally misinterpreted Obama's success and they assumed it

806
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: was identity politics, and they were wrong.

807
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 4: I think they were wrong. I mean, I think, first

808
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 4: of all, I think his perceived moderation, both temperamentally and

809
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 4: in many ways politically, was probably a part of why

810
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 4: he's seen as so successful now.

811
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 2: I think it's probably why you want to take a term.

812
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,280
Speaker 1: And no, I think it's a hallmark of biracial leaders

813
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: by the way, bi racial leaders have this ability they're

814
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 1: you know, he was raised by a white grandmother who

815
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: told him everybody was going to look at you, askance.

816
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: So he came into every room very carefully, very temperamentally,

817
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: very methodically. You know, I had a I had a

818
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 1: boss was biracial who was very never not loud. I

819
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: don't houlse to put it was like always assuming that

820
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: people were judging him, whether that was fair or not,

821
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: but clearly was brought up in a way to be, hey,

822
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 1: be careful because obviously, when when these folks were brought up,

823
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: it was illegal to be have a biracial marriage. So

824
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: so there was sensitivities, unfair sensitivities that I think I

825
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: think the biracial leaders of in their fifties and sixties

826
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 1: were raised.

827
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 4: With no I completely agree, but I mean I do think. Look,

828
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 4: my piece did not was not really calling for Obama

829
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,240
Speaker 4: to do much. It was just I mean, just showing

830
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 4: up at a march or something. You don't have to

831
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 4: say anything. It would get all kinds of press coverage.

832
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 4: It would be sort of quiet leadership by example, like

833
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 4: this is important enough for me to show up at,

834
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 4: whether it was at a one of the No Kings

835
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 4: things this weekend or something some kind of counterprogramming around.

836
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: I mean, quite the Can you name the last former

837
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: president that would have protested a sitting.

838
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 2: President actively protested.

839
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:11,919
Speaker 1: I mean, look, and you know, you and I both

840
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: know Obama kind of is a believer in those protocols

841
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: because he really appreciated that Bush. He loved the way

842
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: the Bush has behaved. I think as a model, I

843
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 1: think Obama almost uses that as a role model.

844
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 5: Yeah.

845
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 4: Well, it's the most appealing if you are in that

846
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 4: presidential club. It's the most appealing model of wal because

847
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 4: all you got to do is whatever the heck you

848
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 4: want and make tons of money and no one's going

849
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 4: to bother you. You know, the difference between the two

850
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 4: of them is there's not a soul in the Republican

851
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 4: Party these days, and certainly not a lot in the

852
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 4: Democratic Party who want George Bush anywhere near their political enterprise, right.

853
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,240
Speaker 1: I mean, even if there's even if there's this grudging

854
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: respect for his character and his morality, and like, hey,

855
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 1: he's a good guy, and we forget how much being

856
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 1: a good guy isn't a bad thing in American.

857
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 2: Politics, correct.

858
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 4: I mean, I do think that the problem with Obama

859
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 4: him how he's conducted his post presidency to some degree

860
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 4: is in addition to his absence from this kind of

861
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 4: tenel armed fire we've lived through, we're living through now

862
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,399
Speaker 4: and we'rek to some degree earlier, is when he does

863
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 4: come out in public, it does so in such a

864
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 4: way that reinforces every worst stereotype of the modern Democratic Party,

865
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 4: which is wealthy, which is removed, which is not at

866
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,399
Speaker 4: all affected by Trump's America or like inflation. I mean,

867
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 4: this is I mean, like, hey, look my new I mean,

868
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 4: you know what I was listening when I was when

869
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 4: I started doing the story. One thing I was listening

870
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 4: to is every time he's got a new playlist, that

871
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 4: comes out or a new Oh, here are my book

872
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 4: recommendations here.

873
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: By the way, have you noticed that they're always very

874
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: I always find his playlists, both music and the books

875
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 1: to be what I call correct. It's like, I don't

876
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: know what the correct the answers are, but his answers

877
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 1: feel like they're the least impeachable, right, Like, it's sort

878
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 1: of and he does it even with how he picks

879
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: the brackets.

880
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 5: It's yes, it's a graphically absolutely and it's almost too

881
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 5: to have a little Clinton polling on where to have

882
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 5: vacation kind of quality to it.

883
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 4: Whatever it is, it's I just have a lot. I

884
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 4: have a lot of democratic and liberal friends who every time,

885
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 4: I mean, this is kind of literally an email thread

886
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 4: I was on a few months ago, like when you

887
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 4: had a new playlist, I mean some really hostile I'm like,

888
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 4: all right enough with this, Like, we don't need another playlist,

889
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 4: you know, and.

890
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: The Republic is at rest? Hey, what what are we

891
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 1: going to listen to on the way to hell? You know?

892
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 4: I mean, yes, perfect, Yeah, these are all the lines

893
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 4: I've like edited or edited out. No, I mean, to

894
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:49,280
Speaker 4: paraphrase Tina Turner, we don't need another playlists that obscure, reference, generational.

895
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 1: And you know what, I love Tita Turner. I mean,

896
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 1: if you if there is she her music puts me

897
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: in a happy place, absolutely so much soul and by

898
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: the way, r I mean credit to her. Too many

899
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 1: people are dying, I know, and this is going to

900
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 1: sound weird, but sometimes they die too late to get

901
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 1: the to get the to get the public attention that

902
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: they deserve. Like Tina Turner was one of those that

903
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: like unfortunately hasn't got Look we watched it with Brian

904
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: Wilson last week. Yeah, part of it is that we did.

905
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: Part of it is the Trump era. But you do

906
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 1: if you live, you know, it's it's you die early

907
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 1: in your profession and you're lionized. Oh yeah, I mean,

908
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: you know the I've always thought one of the interesting

909
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 1: what ifs is if the Beatles all, if Lennon lived,

910
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: would they be the Rolling Stones? Would they have the

911
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: same cachet?

912
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 2: They have good cachet.

913
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:47,760
Speaker 1: But if he were still alive, they would have continued

914
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 1: to produce music, would have produced music, and I don't

915
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: know if it would have the same Like the Beatles

916
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: are like, oh right, there's like this, you know, it's

917
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 1: held up in this highest team. If Lennon had lived

918
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 1: another forty years, would they be.

919
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 2: Well yeah, but they never reassembled like you know in

920
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 2: that tent.

921
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they would have. I'm still conte there was

922
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 1: too much money on the table. Think about he dies

923
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty, seventy nine, eighty what he's eighty football?

924
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: I know, like for you and I, we probably I.

925
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 2: Remember what Dolphins I was not.

926
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 1: I was not allowed to be a Dolphins Packers. My

927
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 1: dad didn't like Joe Robbie, and so I thought Joe Robbie.

928
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,280
Speaker 2: Was ripping Joe Robbie are going negative?

929
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: Had some terrible owners. No, there's no doubt, Like, I'm

930
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: okay with this guy now, Ross, and I'm I don't

931
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 1: have the I used to have antagonism to the Dolphins

932
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: because they used to rip off the Hurricanes. They used

933
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 1: to absolutely rip off theaters to Miami. They don't do

934
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: that anymore. So it's a better relationship. But but where

935
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: were we going, oh Lennon? So the point is is,

936
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: remember right after within five years you have farm Aid,

937
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 1: band Aid, the Africa all remember all of those Yes,

938
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,800
Speaker 1: even led Zeppelin almost reunited with John Paul Jones's kid,

939
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: Jason Jones, I think playing drums. I just promise you

940
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,240
Speaker 1: all of them get together. So you say, no doubt

941
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: in my mind that that happens, because Lennon and Yoko

942
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 1: are both suckers for good, charitable things, and that would

943
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:26,720
Speaker 1: have happened.

944
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 4: And then from there, who knows, you'd think we'd be

945
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 4: in like years three of the Beatles residency at the

946
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 4: Sphere at this.

947
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: Point, you know the answer is maybe it's good.

948
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 2: Okay, they're a.

949
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: Little old, but maybe I.

950
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 4: Got to indulge one more thing. So I just had

951
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 4: a piece a couple months ago on my.

952
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: Self indulgent interview I've done so far in my I

953
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: did a profile on Ringo two months ago.

954
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 4: It was one of my favorite pieces ever. It's all

955
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 4: about this sort of interesting Well, tell me more. What

956
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 4: was I find Ringo to be the most? Like the

957
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 4: Beatles documentary on Apple, Yes, I really it made me.

958
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 4: Ringo was what I hoped he would be perfect right,

959
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 4: and he that same with me in spending like a

960
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 4: whole year with him, and in my discussions with Sir McCartney,

961
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 4: he said that, you know, Ringo was the glue.

962
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 2: He was the glue guy. And it's all it's all

963
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 2: in A.

964
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 1: Good drummer should be yes, by the way, in theory, right,

965
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 1: it's your rhythm, right eye, like you have to be

966
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 1: in the music itself. But it turns out Ringo was

967
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: the adult who knew of all the people, that was

968
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 1: the adult in the room there it was going to

969
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: be rho.

970
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 4: I mean, first of all, the piece I went down

971
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 4: so many self indulgent rabbit holes. And by the way,

972
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 4: any people this particular podcast knows that I like self

973
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 4: indulgent rabbit holes.

974
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,399
Speaker 2: But yeah, anyway, it was a blast. I loved it.

975
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,280
Speaker 1: Well, what was your insight? So what are you spending

976
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: all that time with Ringo? Lennon Lives?

977
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 2: What happens?

978
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,359
Speaker 4: I didn't go there, particularly because I think if Lives,

979
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,800
Speaker 4: I would like to think they would have somehow managed

980
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 4: to just like not do that. I mean, although we

981
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 4: kind of do that AI thing last year or that that.

982
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 2: I know, you know, it's.

983
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: How did you feel about it? I Initially I might

984
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 1: have liked it better if I didn't know the source.

985
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 4: Initially a little queasy, but it's kind of a beautiful song.

986
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,839
Speaker 4: I mean again, like I went down many musical little

987
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 4: rabbit holes. But I think it's I guess it's okay.

988
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 4: I mean, look, good music stand on zone. Beautiful music

989
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 4: stand on the zone. In some degree, in some ways

990
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 4: the magic of the Beatles sort of stands on its own.

991
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 4: But the whole prep But but the premise of this

992
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 4: was that, like, I was so unhappy around this campaign

993
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 4: last year, and you know, I had to cover it

994
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 4: like everyone else, and I had to go.

995
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:47,879
Speaker 1: It was a slog I mean, it was terrific reason

996
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 1: why I was not missing my days at Meet the

997
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 1: Press at all. Oh no, this was not I was

998
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 1: why do I want to do reruns? Yes?

999
00:52:57,960 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 2: And it was brutal.

1000
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:01,359
Speaker 4: And I early on in the year, I said, Okay,

1001
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 4: I need an island to check in with periodically through

1002
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:04,319
Speaker 4: the year.

1003
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: And I wonder if Ringo was your island. Huh.

1004
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 4: He decided yeah, he allowed me to come hang out

1005
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 4: with him a little bit. I And it started in

1006
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,839
Speaker 4: March in LA and went down, went to Nashville, went

1007
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,320
Speaker 4: to Vegas. I mean, it was just such a pleasure

1008
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 4: to It was just an island of joy in the middle.

1009
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,839
Speaker 2: Of like the worst sort of stretch of year.

1010
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 4: And I guess kind of continues ever, and you know,

1011
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 4: he's not political at all. I mean that was like

1012
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 4: the first never has been, has he not really? I

1013
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 4: mean I think, you know, peace and love, that's his thing,

1014
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 4: and so I imagine he's not a Trump voter, but

1015
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 4: he is. Uh yeah, no, he can't do that. I

1016
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 4: mean it would it would be dumb if he did

1017
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 4: do that.

1018
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 2: But but he.

1019
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 1: Actually doesn't seem to be a judge guy, Like you know,

1020
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: neither's that who said you don't have to be a Trumper. Yeah,

1021
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:53,280
Speaker 1: he's not appeal to people if you're just not judgy.

1022
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 4: He's not judgy at all. And look, there was this

1023
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:58,720
Speaker 4: concert he did in Nashville. He has this great country

1024
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 4: album with tvon Burnette that it was like the number

1025
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 4: one country album in the country a couple of months ago,

1026
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 4: believe it or not. And it was in the Riemann Auditorium,

1027
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,359
Speaker 4: which is this psicotic space. And I don't really know

1028
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 4: the Nashville thing, but the crowd was one of the

1029
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 4: most beautiful group of people ever. And I assume most

1030
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 4: of them are from Tennessee year around there many came

1031
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 4: from like South Dakota that digit miles and it was

1032
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 4: one of the most positive cross generational cross racial, cross

1033
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 4: genre group of people I've seen.

1034
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 1: I got to I was doing a speaking event in Nashville,

1035
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 1: and the entertainment that evening for the group I was

1036
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 1: participating with were songwriters based in Nashville who basically are

1037
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 1: the brains behind half the hits, you know, people that

1038
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 1: worked with Taylor Swift when she was younger and people. Yes,

1039
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 1: and this cultured in Nashville is amazing. It is terrific.

1040
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: It is the songwriter culture, and it is I see

1041
00:54:55,000 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 1: why Nashville is just becoming the new Austin. And yeah, Austin,

1042
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 1: like you.

1043
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 2: Know, island in a red state kind of thing.

1044
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:11,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's but pical, isn't very political now it's

1045
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 1: a it's different now. They don't want to be political.

1046
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: Austin had a statement to make, Nashville doesn't have a

1047
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 1: statement to make.

1048
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 2: Correct.

1049
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 4: Yep, very I mean it's a good analogy. Again, it's

1050
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 4: it's imperfect. But anyway, i'd never been done the Nashville

1051
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 4: thing before. I totally got immediately, and I never and

1052
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 4: I was I always loved the Beatles, the way he

1053
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 4: so ringo. He knew I had a football book, and

1054
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:34,240
Speaker 4: somehow we got to talk to me he's a Dallas

1055
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 4: Cowboys fan for some reason, Big Dallas.

1056
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 1: It's interesting to me when UK transplants like buy into America. Well,

1057
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:42,879
Speaker 1: you know you have the whole ep L and all

1058
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:43,760
Speaker 1: that stuff, right.

1059
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 4: This is speculation. I think it had to do with

1060
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 4: a cheerleader in the seventies. Anyway, I said, that's a rock.

1061
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: That's that's the cliche we all kind of wanted to know.

1062
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, before he was live a little bit with yes,

1063
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 4: but he I kind I kind of kind of rolled

1064
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 4: my eyes and oh, Dallas Cowboys. You can't to Dallas.

1065
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 4: I said, I hate the Dallas couyboards.

1066
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 2: Something like that.

1067
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: Why, I'm like, I don't know.

1068
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 4: It's like, you know, everyone hates the Dallas Cowboys the

1069
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 4: way everyone loves the Beatles. And he said, oh, you

1070
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:13,719
Speaker 4: cannot say hate. Maybe you disliked the Dallas Cowboys.

1071
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 2: Is that okay?

1072
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 4: And like, okay, fine, I just liked. He did not

1073
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 4: like my use of the word Hayden in this or

1074
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:19,360
Speaker 4: any context.

1075
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 1: You know, you can you can't hate something you can

1076
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:27,359
Speaker 1: that you might love, and vice versa meaning hatred. To

1077
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,239
Speaker 1: have hatred means you could have had love. I would

1078
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 1: say hatred comes from pure rejection. You wanted to love

1079
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 1: and instead you were You were.

1080
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:37,840
Speaker 4: Driven to hatred, I think, and in the end, the

1081
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,319
Speaker 4: love you take is equal to the love you make.

1082
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 2: There's something I don't know. It might be something to that.

1083
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 2: I love the easter eggs.

1084
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,320
Speaker 1: I love the Easter egg I love more than dropping

1085
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 1: little east eggs. An here, let me all right, So

1086
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 1: let's go back to the Democrats here. Yeah, yeah, they're

1087
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 1: a mess because I was thinking about your peace, and

1088
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:59,240
Speaker 1: I thought about it in this way. Imagine if Ronald

1089
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 1: Reagan didn't have his mental decline, his dementia whatever you

1090
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,479
Speaker 1: know is Alzheimer's in the nineties. Okay, he was still

1091
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:12,359
Speaker 1: alive in nineteen ninety seven, Okay, he absolutely so let's

1092
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 1: assume he's totally there, totally with Bob dool gets humiliated

1093
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: by Bill Clinton's second term. Republicans don't know what to do.

1094
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 1: They don't have a leader. They're thinking about going to

1095
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 1: the son of the vice president, right like this, really

1096
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: is this where the party's going?

1097
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1098
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: Can you imagine that Ronald Reagan would have stepped into

1099
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: that void to help lead that party out of the

1100
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 1: wilderness in ninety seven, ninety eight, You see what I mean, like,

1101
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 1: that's where I'm like, as much as I agree with

1102
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 1: everything you wrote about Obama, and I agree that he

1103
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 1: actually isn't doing his own legacy any good when he

1104
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 1: does make his public appearances, because they're always in the

1105
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 1: They're always in the celebrity category of appearance, absolutely right.

1106
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: It's never it's never in a non celebrity you know,

1107
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 1: it's a Netflix premiere or a you know, like you said,

1108
00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 1: a playlist, some cultural thing. But here's the thing, you know,

1109
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 1: I think what we learned about him on the trail

1110
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:07,439
Speaker 1: in twenty four is he's kind of out of touch

1111
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 1: with the electorate. So I don't know if he really

1112
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 1: knows what the current American electorate wants to hear from

1113
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 1: their political.

1114
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 4: Leaders, correct, And I don't think he wants to know.

1115
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 4: I mean, I think he and especially Michelle are so

1116
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 4: done with I mean, maybe you know, he is just

1117
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 4: sort of presciently, not pressionally, just smartly just figuring he is.

1118
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 4: His time was over in like twenty fourteen, because that's

1119
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 4: when America really started putting him out, and it was

1120
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 4: also kind of created. Don't blame him for this, but

1121
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 4: it did kind of create the environment that brought trump

1122
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 4: Ism into the never ending loop of whatever we're living

1123
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 4: through now. But I think, no, I agree. I mean,

1124
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 4: he's a great performer. Like that second end of the

1125
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 4: Democratic convention with him and Michelle people were going nuts,

1126
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 4: like they both nailed their speeches, and you know who,

1127
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 4: like it meant nothing, meant absolutely nothing. But in the

1128
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 4: same way that if you actually went to like Democratic

1129
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 4: events through like the last couple months of this campaign,

1130
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 4: Walls events, Harris events, Sarrogate events, I mean there were huge,

1131
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 4: energetic crowds, like they were getting serious. I mean the

1132
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 4: energy I think they were feeling felt real, and yet

1133
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 4: it amounted to nothing like there is Well.

1134
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 1: I disagree that amount. Look, I actually think, you know,

1135
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 1: this is one of those counterintuitives. But you know, Joe

1136
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 1: Biden would have lost as badly as to caucused it.

1137
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, okay.

1138
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 1: So the switch I always think. I think the enthusiasm

1139
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: of the fall on the Democratic side was really relief

1140
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: that and and I thought, well, okay, you're not dead yet.

1141
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 1: It's sort of like you know, you're It's like you

1142
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 1: made it. You made it to the NBA Finals, were

1143
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 1: probably not going to win, but you made it. You

1144
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:52,560
Speaker 1: can't believe you made it. You have a chance. You

1145
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 1: never know, right, a couple of things go your way. No,

1146
00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 1: I think Biden leads the party to too, I don't.

1147
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 1: I think he Well, it wouldn't be quite as bad

1148
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 1: as Ducacus because we're a bit more polarized. But he

1149
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 1: probably does lose Minnesota, New Mexico, New Jersey, Virginia. Like

1150
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 1: I could add another eight states that he probably loses

1151
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 1: if Biden's on that ticket, which also means there's probably

1152
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 1: two hundred and thirty five House Republicans and there's probably

1153
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: fifty six US Republican Senators, so that you know, it's

1154
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: one of those things where Kamala is always going to

1155
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 1: be seen as vailure, not a success, right, And really

1156
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 1: she probably she probably prevented a disaster. She did fine.

1157
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 4: She was the Patriots in the ninety seven Super Bowl

1158
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 4: against the Packers, like it was respectable. Looked like it

1159
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 4: could have been a blowout. See I'm pandering to your

1160
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 4: Packers thing respectable. That was a blow out the whole time,

1161
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 4: was I guess, I know, I know you're right.

1162
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 1: It was like what was it thirty one? It was right,

1163
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 1: but it was a cheap touchdown at the.

1164
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 4: End at thirty five to fourteen. For the post of

1165
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 4: the game, I think, okay, I agree with you about

1166
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 4: what would have happened if Biden we're in the ticket.

1167
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 4: I think in addition to all that, the spectacle of

1168
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:09,200
Speaker 4: him actually trying to run for president between June and

1169
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 4: would have been one of the ugliest, most horrific, undignified things.

1170
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 1: My favorite what if of the twenty four campaign is

1171
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:20,480
Speaker 1: because I remember thinking this, and I had this column

1172
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 1: ready to write, which was Donald Trump's arrogance cost him

1173
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 1: the election, right, And the arrogance would have been accepting

1174
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 1: the debate with Biden, because had Trump said no, debate

1175
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 1: doesn't happen, Biden doesn't leave. The first debate is in September. Now,

1176
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 1: imagine Biden has that performance in September.

1177
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 2: Okay, this happens. We had a conversation me and you.

1178
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:48,440
Speaker 4: It might have been the last I don't know it

1179
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 4: was the last year at this time, and I'm not

1180
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 4: going to repeat it because it was I assume you

1181
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 4: were well, you were talking off the record. We were

1182
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 4: talking off the record, but someone you were talking off

1183
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 4: the record. But it goes to this, and I've actually

1184
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 4: quoted it a few times, so I mean, not like

1185
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 4: in print, but I mean it's the idea that there

1186
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 4: were actually people within the White House, within the Biden

1187
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 4: campaign who thought it would be a good thing to

1188
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 4: create some kind of daylight for the world to see

1189
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:20,240
Speaker 4: what they were dealing with on a day to day basis.

1190
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 1: Look, I will go to my grave believing that the

1191
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 1: debate was intentional. Yeah, for that, I Nita Dunne and

1192
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 1: General Maley Dillon will deny it till they're blue in

1193
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 1: the face. And if I were in their shoes and

1194
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 1: I did it, I deny it until I was blue

1195
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 1: in my face. Okay, It's like, whoever the hell helped

1196
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 1: Reagan delay the hostage release? Okay, it's never going to

1197
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 1: be admitted, but there's no it's too convenient. Are you're

1198
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 1: really you're telling me you don't release the hostage on

1199
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:53,680
Speaker 1: Jataway twentieth And it's somehow the outgo the incoming presidential

1200
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 1: team had nothing to do with that, and there was

1201
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 1: no promises made. Sorry, Like you know, I'm an Ockham's

1202
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:00,840
Speaker 1: razor guy, right, but nobody's ever going to cop to it.

1203
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, people will It'll be on deathbed

1204
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:07,160
Speaker 1: diaries before we find out right the truth about that.

1205
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 1: But I absolutely there was no other reason this idea, Well,

1206
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 1: we needed to shake up the race in late June.

1207
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:17,920
Speaker 1: Who shakes up a race?

1208
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 2: Right?

1209
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, they wanted, They knew, they only had, They

1210
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 1: knew when the nomination was going to be, and they

1211
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 1: knew they needed to deal with this with an opportunity

1212
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 1: to make a change if it was necessary, if they can.

1213
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 1: And I will always believe this, And again, I know

1214
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 1: it's not fair to Jen and Anita I say this.

1215
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:40,919
Speaker 1: They may be listening now cursing us. Screw you. People

1216
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:44,240
Speaker 1: are never it didn't matter if you didn't do it,

1217
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 1: then you should have, like I endorse what you did,

1218
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:51,840
Speaker 1: because it was pretty clear from Jake's reporting and Alex's

1219
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 1: reporting in the book that the the Biden circle was

1220
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:59,040
Speaker 1: never going to admit the problem and that the only

1221
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 1: way you were going to force a change with Sunshine.

1222
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 1: This is not about reporters reporting more shit. This was

1223
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 1: about people seeing it for.

1224
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 4: Themselves in a way much more vivid. I mean, I

1225
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 4: think people intuited it for like eighty percent of the

1226
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 4: country intuited it basically by pot.

1227
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 1: Well, that was always my point. I never accepted the

1228
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 1: premise that the press was what.

1229
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:19,920
Speaker 2: Were we hiding?

1230
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 1: We were telling you he's using the short staircase. We

1231
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 1: were showing you these pictures. Hey, he doesn't do interviews.

1232
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 1: Now ever, should you know the the in hindsight, should

1233
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 1: I have said proactively, well, he's not doing interviews. I

1234
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:37,960
Speaker 1: wonder if it's because they're afraid of showing his age.

1235
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 1: I could have done that.

1236
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.

1237
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 1: Right, that's a I don't feel comfortable without its sourced, right, Like,

1238
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 1: that's just a you know so, and I dealing with

1239
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 1: people's health, and I do think we all have sensitivities

1240
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 1: because I when it comes to health issues, I've always

1241
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:56,360
Speaker 1: looked at it through the prism of what am I

1242
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 1: willing to disclose? Right?

1243
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true. But this is one you're not president

1244
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 4: and too, I understand, like written all over your face

1245
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:07,080
Speaker 4: and your I mean your breath. I mean, it's just

1246
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 4: like it was intuitively, it was an observable fact. There

1247
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:12,560
Speaker 4: was no coverers. I mean, the cover up was was

1248
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 4: completely feudal.

1249
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 1: If it was a cover up, look, I will say

1250
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 1: this to me, the cover up was it wasn't that.

1251
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 1: It was just the absurdity. Like watching Chuck Schumer today,

1252
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 1: you know, not be able to avoiding answering these questions

1253
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 1: about Biden. It's an easy answer, just do it. Bro

1254
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 1: of course, of course he shouldn't have run. And by

1255
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 1: the you know, like I've had this conversation with multiple governors,

1256
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:35,880
Speaker 1: I've had this conversation with multiple senators and none of

1257
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 1: them will go on the record and say it. And

1258
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 1: it was like, come on, guys, you would have to

1259
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 1: help your own credibility here. Look, I actually think it

1260
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:45,720
Speaker 1: is going to be a stain on anybody that was

1261
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:49,120
Speaker 1: associated with Biden, Like I think I think Pete Boodage,

1262
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:54,120
Speaker 1: if it wasn't for his service with Biden, I would

1263
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:55,920
Speaker 1: accept the premise that he might be one of the

1264
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,960
Speaker 1: front runners. But I think the Biden baggage is so

1265
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 1: heavy for the Democratic Party voter that I think it

1266
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:03,439
Speaker 1: becomes a problem for him.

1267
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 4: Okay, I think the I'm not sure I agree with you,

1268
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 4: because what all these Democrats and all these White House

1269
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 4: officials in cabinet, what they're all guilty of is practicing politics,

1270
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 4: which is basically selective communication. Right, Like you think, like

1271
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,240
Speaker 4: like half the people in the first Trump administration, like

1272
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 4: should have shared with the nation the stuff they obviously saw.

1273
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 4: And like, I mean, oh, you had an obligation, secret

1274
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:29,440
Speaker 4: press secretary, you know, John.

1275
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 1: An obligation to be fired if they disclosed it too, right, yes.

1276
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 4: Like within seconds, within seconds. It's like you're not I mean,

1277
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 4: this is like guess what politicians and operatives are not

1278
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:43,720
Speaker 4: on the level. I mean, this is it's just polic I've.

1279
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:45,240
Speaker 1: Always said, I don't know about you, but I've always

1280
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 1: said our job is to be professional skeptics.

1281
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 2: Well, don't even that.

1282
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 4: That's why see that period where Biden was not getting

1283
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 4: out of the race and Democrats were trying to defend him.

1284
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 4: I mean it was the most maddening thing ever because

1285
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:00,640
Speaker 4: Democrats and the media to some degree had been spending

1286
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 4: ten years saying, oh, Republicans are such liars because they

1287
01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 4: all hate Trump behind their backpublicans, oh I love Donald Trump.

1288
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:11,520
Speaker 4: I mean, Democrats did almost precisely the same thing, Like

1289
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:16,160
Speaker 4: you know, I mean, I don't know, it's depressing, but

1290
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:17,520
Speaker 4: it's really basic.

1291
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 2: As my kids say, so.

1292
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:26,720
Speaker 1: This town and your sequel to it, how given what

1293
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 1: we're seeing now, this is Trump on steroids. This is

1294
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:37,400
Speaker 1: what you described is actually and I find this. I'm

1295
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 1: in the middle of trying to do a satire slash

1296
01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:46,480
Speaker 1: fictionalized sort of thing. Okay, my co writer, Yes, we

1297
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 1: run into this problem all the time, every time we

1298
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:51,960
Speaker 1: try to come up with something a little well, well

1299
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 1: this wouldn't happen, but it but but you know, but

1300
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:56,520
Speaker 1: it could. Right you go and then you're like, oh, no,

1301
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 1: he's actually going there, right, like look at trump Mobile.

1302
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:04,160
Speaker 1: I mean like it is a it's become it's funny,

1303
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:07,160
Speaker 1: like they sort of almost like, oh, yeah, you think

1304
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 1: we're You think we're you think we're drifting. You ain't

1305
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 1: say nothing yet. Wait, do you see what we got

1306
01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 1: going next? We're going to have gold phones, gold cell

1307
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 1: phones for you to buy.

1308
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 2: But they're literally about it.

1309
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:21,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, for forty seven forty five. I mean like it's

1310
01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:24,040
Speaker 1: right out of the you remember the movie Idiocracy, of course,

1311
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 1: I mean it's like it's at this point it looks

1312
01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:27,120
Speaker 1: like a documentary.

1313
01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:29,760
Speaker 2: People talked about that at the time, and it was

1314
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:30,400
Speaker 2: almost it.

1315
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 4: Was cringey to watch twenty fifteen or twenty I didn't

1316
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:35,519
Speaker 4: buy it.

1317
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:37,760
Speaker 1: No, it came out in twenty oh nine, twenty two,

1318
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:41,599
Speaker 1: right right, and it felt it was obviously Mike Judge

1319
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:45,320
Speaker 1: was thinking he was satirizing the Bush era, and it's like, dude,

1320
01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:47,880
Speaker 1: and that's why I didn't buy it. Then it's like, oh,

1321
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 1: this is stupid, this is a Hollywood version. But it

1322
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:53,360
Speaker 1: ended up being prescient about what was coming. You know.

1323
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:55,280
Speaker 2: Well it was as hard to watch to some degree

1324
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 2: as a lot of what we have to watch.

1325
01:08:56,880 --> 01:08:59,840
Speaker 4: And you knows as news now, right, I mean, yeah,

1326
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 4: but yeah, it's one hundred percent true. I mean, I

1327
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 4: will say I will say this. I mean the stuff

1328
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:07,000
Speaker 4: I wrote about in twenty thirteen. I mean, in retrospect,

1329
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:09,400
Speaker 4: it's a quaint comedy of menth and it feels small.

1330
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:12,479
Speaker 1: I feel this way about my Obama book, which came

1331
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:15,840
Speaker 1: out in twenty fourteen. I literally I have a pretty

1332
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:18,479
Speaker 1: large I have a pretty I have a chapter on

1333
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 1: Trump and the whole birthersm and like their response and

1334
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 1: I and I certainly you know, and I feel like

1335
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:31,639
Speaker 1: I feel like I've captured his presidency correctly and sort

1336
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:35,120
Speaker 1: of how it would be assessed. But you know, Trump

1337
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:38,000
Speaker 1: is totally like there is a line of demarcation. It

1338
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:42,440
Speaker 1: is like electricity and before electricity.

1339
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 4: Like that's what it feels like, doesn't it like, yeah,

1340
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:46,639
Speaker 4: it's hard to get like all whipped up about. Oh,

1341
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:49,559
Speaker 4: a former Republican and a former Democratic senator are now

1342
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 4: in business together on K Street. Oh my god when

1343
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:52,960
Speaker 4: they're getting out.

1344
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:55,280
Speaker 1: But you know, I wonder if this is the problem,

1345
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:59,840
Speaker 1: you know, what is your sense to quote our friend,

1346
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 1: where's the outrage?

1347
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 2: Where?

1348
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:05,920
Speaker 1: Why do you think? I mean, what Trump has done

1349
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:09,400
Speaker 1: to make money off of the presidency is unprecedented. He's

1350
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:12,559
Speaker 1: selling pardons in plain sight. My favorite. You know, when

1351
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:15,880
Speaker 1: Mike Johnson says the difference between Biden and Trump is

1352
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:17,840
Speaker 1: that Biden hit it and Trump does it out in

1353
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:20,040
Speaker 1: the open and so everybody can see it. You're like, oh,

1354
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:22,439
Speaker 1: if I shoplift and wave to the camera as I'm

1355
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:26,080
Speaker 1: walking out the store, does that make more honest shoplifter? Right?

1356
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:28,479
Speaker 2: Yes, for president?

1357
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:31,920
Speaker 1: But why do you you know, my wife's thesis as

1358
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:34,799
Speaker 1: to why there's no outrage is it means the voters

1359
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:36,519
Speaker 1: assumed they were all corrupt to begin with.

1360
01:10:37,439 --> 01:10:39,240
Speaker 4: Well, I think that was whole That was Trump's whole thing.

1361
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 4: I mean, Trump's whole thing is you know, I'm not

1362
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 4: that corrupt. Everyone else is like, I know, the system

1363
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:44,720
Speaker 4: that was kind of it.

1364
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 1: Well, now he's pardon to anybody that's committed a crime

1365
01:10:47,080 --> 01:10:49,240
Speaker 1: remotely similar to what he's been accused of. Have you

1366
01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:53,160
Speaker 1: noticed this? I mean literally every pardon is somebody who

1367
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:54,880
Speaker 1: has done something he's been accused of.

1368
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 4: Anyone who is charged with anything or convicted of anything

1369
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:00,479
Speaker 4: can just go out and say, oh, I now see

1370
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 4: weaponization firsthand. Like President Trump experienced, boom, your pardnered. Bob

1371
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:06,800
Speaker 4: Menendez is beenally like screaming this.

1372
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:10,680
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, the Justice Department has been unfairly targeting me.

1373
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:14,120
Speaker 1: It's like he's like he's screaming for his I.

1374
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 4: Mean, I mean there's a whole list of people who know.

1375
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 4: Eric Adam is another one, like this guy Carlos.

1376
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:23,200
Speaker 1: Sure, I'm sure how many gold bars do you think

1377
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:24,960
Speaker 1: it'll take to get the Menendez parton?

1378
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:30,400
Speaker 4: He's running out of time. I'm in surprise. I mean,

1379
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 4: apparently Trump has a real Beanus bond because he voted

1380
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:35,000
Speaker 4: for conviction on you know a couple of times.

1381
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:37,080
Speaker 1: So, by the way, I don't if your Trump, do

1382
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:39,240
Speaker 1: you blame him, like you're like, well, it's quid pro.

1383
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:42,040
Speaker 2: Quote clue, no, no, no, no, I mean.

1384
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:44,439
Speaker 1: I don't mean to be psychical about this, but when

1385
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:47,080
Speaker 1: you're dealing with nefarious people, don't be surprised if they

1386
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:49,200
Speaker 1: deal with you in the same nefarious way you behaved.

1387
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:52,920
Speaker 4: Oh absolutely no, I mean, look, there are no words

1388
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:54,479
Speaker 4: for this. I mean, it's it's like, you know, we've

1389
01:11:54,479 --> 01:11:56,639
Speaker 4: spent so much word I mean, it's so over the top.

1390
01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:59,800
Speaker 4: Now I don't know if it's sinister. I mean, I

1391
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:03,400
Speaker 4: mean every theory probably holds some water. The idea that

1392
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:08,000
Speaker 4: Trump supporters just love, the idea that the media, the Democrats,

1393
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:09,920
Speaker 4: that all the people they hate are.

1394
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:13,439
Speaker 1: The most angry all the time. All this what let

1395
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:15,160
Speaker 1: me ask you, what's more likely? A sort of a

1396
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:17,479
Speaker 1: because I feel like you're one of the few political

1397
01:12:17,479 --> 01:12:21,439
Speaker 1: reporters who sort of tries to sort of also look

1398
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 1: at it culturally and historically too. So what's more likely,

1399
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:30,519
Speaker 1: Like we have a way of the next president is

1400
01:12:30,520 --> 01:12:33,800
Speaker 1: always a response to the previous president, right in some

1401
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:36,200
Speaker 1: form or another. Maybe it's on character, you know, that

1402
01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:39,080
Speaker 1: maybe they have they have a characteristic that the previous

1403
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:42,200
Speaker 1: one lacked or whatever it is. Right, are we more

1404
01:12:42,400 --> 01:12:45,559
Speaker 1: likely is the next guy that the next person who

1405
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:48,760
Speaker 1: succeeds Trump, And let's let's look at it from them.

1406
01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:51,960
Speaker 1: If the Democrat, the next Democratic elected president, the next

1407
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:54,840
Speaker 1: president that is not from Trump's party, yep, whether it's

1408
01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:57,120
Speaker 1: a Democrat or an independent, is it going to be

1409
01:12:57,200 --> 01:13:02,240
Speaker 1: somebody that shares some of the characteristics of Trump, meaning

1410
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:05,639
Speaker 1: kind of a salesmanlike, kind of a pilch Barnum, willing

1411
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 1: to sort of you know, there's you know, willing to

1412
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:13,559
Speaker 1: have coffee clashes. Frankly, you know, something in between Bill

1413
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:16,840
Speaker 1: Clinton and Donald Trump? Or are we more likely to

1414
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:20,959
Speaker 1: have a school marm to sort of recover and repair

1415
01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:22,720
Speaker 1: from the damage Trump did?

1416
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:27,600
Speaker 4: Probably some hybrid, I mean, I think, you know, I

1417
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:30,080
Speaker 4: probably I'm in the easy choice, you know it, well,

1418
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:34,240
Speaker 4: a good centrist governor like Roy. I don't know if

1419
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:36,080
Speaker 4: this is about ideology as much.

1420
01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:36,679
Speaker 2: I don't either.

1421
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,920
Speaker 4: I think Trump actually there are a couple of Well,

1422
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:43,880
Speaker 4: first of all, I'm of the beliefs that the Trump's

1423
01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:49,800
Speaker 4: singular talent is not remotely transferable inside the Republican Party.

1424
01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:51,760
Speaker 4: I think, you know, if Jamie Vance tries to be

1425
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:54,640
Speaker 4: Ron de Santis too, or Donald Trump Junior tries to

1426
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:58,200
Speaker 4: be I don't know, Marjorie Taylor Green too or whatever,

1427
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:00,280
Speaker 4: I just don't see that transferring it all once he

1428
01:14:00,400 --> 01:14:04,679
Speaker 4: leaves the stage. I think there are some real lessons

1429
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:07,400
Speaker 4: that can be learned from Trump's success that Biden should

1430
01:14:07,439 --> 01:14:09,599
Speaker 4: have learned, but it was incapable of one. I mean,

1431
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:13,200
Speaker 4: shamelessness is a superpower you need. It's okay to boat,

1432
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:17,439
Speaker 4: It's okay to be over the top and stuff. I mean, yeah,

1433
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 4: Joe Biden would be laughing.

1434
01:14:18,520 --> 01:14:21,080
Speaker 2: I mean, it's okay to kind of be laughed at

1435
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:22,479
Speaker 2: because I mean a lot of Trump.

1436
01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 1: So you know, Bill Clinton was good at this. He

1437
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:27,800
Speaker 1: understood sid that line. And by the way, people in

1438
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:30,400
Speaker 1: our roles, you know, we were younger then, but people

1439
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:32,920
Speaker 1: in our roles would sometimes be critical of Clinton's behavior.

1440
01:14:33,160 --> 01:14:36,839
Speaker 1: Oh actually, you know the coffee clatches. Using the Lincoln bedroom,

1441
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:40,760
Speaker 1: my god, it's using the Lincoln bedroom for for for

1442
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:43,320
Speaker 1: high priced dotors were a crime now, I mean, you know,

1443
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:44,120
Speaker 1: and you know, and.

1444
01:14:44,120 --> 01:14:46,880
Speaker 4: Al Gore and Joe Lieberman attempted the school marm Act

1445
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 4: and it almost worked for them, right, I mean, and

1446
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:51,720
Speaker 4: Bush was I don't know, Bush was just kind of

1447
01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:54,200
Speaker 4: the Joe Biden of that age, because he was like, well,

1448
01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:57,320
Speaker 4: this is an emergency, and like, this guy's kind of acceptable,

1449
01:14:57,320 --> 01:15:01,080
Speaker 4: and he's the last guy. But I also, but Trump,

1450
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:06,000
Speaker 4: I think, you know, marketing needs to be applied in

1451
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 4: a very over the top way to white houses. I

1452
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:14,280
Speaker 4: think also hyper visibility is also a superpower that press.

1453
01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:17,000
Speaker 1: Well the attention. You know, what Trump Trump understood is

1454
01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:22,600
Speaker 1: because Trump has no skill to make money other than is,

1455
01:15:22,760 --> 01:15:26,960
Speaker 1: like I always think what made him moilionaires check. What's

1456
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:29,320
Speaker 1: interesting to me about him that I think we fully

1457
01:15:29,439 --> 01:15:33,200
Speaker 1: we underappreciate is the whole cliche of fake it till

1458
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:38,200
Speaker 1: you make it. That is Donald Trump's montrump and it's

1459
01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 1: worked for him and American dream. I think when when

1460
01:15:42,160 --> 01:15:45,599
Speaker 1: some people hear the phrase American dream, that's what they

1461
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:48,080
Speaker 1: think of. This is the only country where you can

1462
01:15:48,160 --> 01:15:50,439
Speaker 1: fake it and make it. You know, you have to

1463
01:15:50,479 --> 01:15:51,519
Speaker 1: have a discernible skill.

1464
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:56,440
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I mean he is so he looks so confident.

1465
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:58,960
Speaker 4: I mean he is incredibly not confident.

1466
01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:02,200
Speaker 1: I'm sure beyond this. Oh, I think, look at him

1467
01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:05,000
Speaker 1: in the G seven. I think I think the way

1468
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:07,600
Speaker 1: he behaves right, he seems to like not like that

1469
01:16:07,640 --> 01:16:10,280
Speaker 1: he's a part of that club. So he immediately comes

1470
01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:12,799
Speaker 1: in and says, where's Putin? You know, you guys shouldn't

1471
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 1: kick Putin out right, like so immediately wants to make

1472
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:18,439
Speaker 1: it clear I'm the skunk, and I don't care that

1473
01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:22,519
Speaker 1: I'm the skunk anyway, right, smell the glove, you know?

1474
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:24,080
Speaker 2: Correct?

1475
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:27,080
Speaker 4: No, I agree, No, But Americans, I think and even

1476
01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:29,400
Speaker 4: like I remember, before I knew what Trump was about,

1477
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:32,400
Speaker 4: I always found him compelling because boy did he look sure.

1478
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:35,080
Speaker 4: He looked like he knew what he was doing. He

1479
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:36,800
Speaker 4: looked like he was sure of what he was doing.

1480
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:38,280
Speaker 4: And he speaks to an authority.

1481
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:41,360
Speaker 1: My investigators, you won't believe what they're finding in Honolulum.

1482
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:44,040
Speaker 1: I mean, like he was always so. But even on

1483
01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:47,360
Speaker 1: that story, right, which is, how the hell did anybody

1484
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:49,760
Speaker 1: find that credible? But it wasn't. You know, I've always

1485
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:53,880
Speaker 1: said the reason voters flocked to him wasn't because they

1486
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:56,719
Speaker 1: believed Obama wasn't born in America. They were just glad

1487
01:16:56,800 --> 01:16:59,160
Speaker 1: somebody else was willing to say it, because what they

1488
01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:02,760
Speaker 1: were really saying is they thought Obama culturally wasn't their

1489
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:05,439
Speaker 1: kind of American. Oh no, like that ultimately was what

1490
01:17:05,479 --> 01:17:06,080
Speaker 1: that was about.

1491
01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:08,800
Speaker 4: Well, well this goes to something else. But I remember

1492
01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:10,479
Speaker 4: in like twenty fifteen I was writing about Trump. It

1493
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:13,559
Speaker 4: was probably like July or August. Or something, and I

1494
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:15,840
Speaker 4: was at some rally, you know, blew outs like the

1495
01:17:15,920 --> 01:17:19,160
Speaker 4: Dalla of the American Airlines Arena in Dallas, like total nuts.

1496
01:17:19,479 --> 01:17:21,880
Speaker 4: And that day, like a new poll came out and

1497
01:17:22,040 --> 01:17:24,200
Speaker 4: like something like seventy five or eighty percent of the

1498
01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:27,920
Speaker 4: Republican Party believe that Barack Obama was either not born

1499
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:30,439
Speaker 4: in the United States or was a Muslim. And I'm like, oh,

1500
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:33,040
Speaker 4: so this is not the base of the Republican Party.

1501
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:36,400
Speaker 4: This basically is the Republican Party. And this guy, I

1502
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:38,599
Speaker 4: think is going to win the nomination because of this,

1503
01:17:39,160 --> 01:17:41,080
Speaker 4: you know, and I also think celebrity and.

1504
01:17:41,080 --> 01:17:45,559
Speaker 1: Well, by the way, that's another thing that Democrats don't

1505
01:17:45,560 --> 01:17:47,840
Speaker 1: know how to do, and Republicans have actually always known

1506
01:17:47,840 --> 01:17:49,920
Speaker 1: how to do, which is, don't be afraid to agree

1507
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:53,320
Speaker 1: with the voters like Democrats have a way have tried

1508
01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 1: to tell the voters no, no, no, no, no, this is

1509
01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:58,320
Speaker 1: how we need to do this. Republicans say, you're right,

1510
01:17:59,439 --> 01:18:02,840
Speaker 1: and we're going to do this. Okay, you know, you're right,

1511
01:18:02,920 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 1: there's too many immigrants, you're right, the government's too big,

1512
01:18:06,920 --> 01:18:09,880
Speaker 1: you know, don't pay attention to the plan that we

1513
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:12,400
Speaker 1: don't have to deal with it. But we agree with you,

1514
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:13,759
Speaker 1: We don't.

1515
01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:18,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, anyway, here we are, Chuck, here we are.

1516
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:19,840
Speaker 2: You know.

1517
01:18:19,880 --> 01:18:22,040
Speaker 1: The other thing I think about with your NFL book

1518
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:25,000
Speaker 1: is I feel like you wrote it thinking that the

1519
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:29,080
Speaker 1: NFL was at a crossroads and maybe they were. Yeah,

1520
01:18:29,080 --> 01:18:32,479
Speaker 1: and now it's sort of like, did you expect them

1521
01:18:32,520 --> 01:18:36,000
Speaker 1: to become even more powerful? I mean they're about to

1522
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:41,200
Speaker 1: completely destroy the local affiliate ecosystem. How people get local

1523
01:18:41,240 --> 01:18:43,760
Speaker 1: news is going to completely change in two years when

1524
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:46,080
Speaker 1: they opt out of their media deal. They have had

1525
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:51,400
Speaker 1: more impact on journalism and the resources that are there

1526
01:18:51,479 --> 01:18:57,040
Speaker 1: or not there because of their dominance in the media ecosystem.

1527
01:18:57,200 --> 01:18:57,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1528
01:18:57,920 --> 01:19:00,360
Speaker 4: No, I mean, first of all, the only reason you

1529
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 4: used crossroads is because you're trying to sell a book.

1530
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:04,320
Speaker 4: I mean, every you can you can say, hey, this is.

1531
01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:07,200
Speaker 1: And they were super PREMI it did feel when that

1532
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:10,120
Speaker 1: was out. The concussion thing was a thing, and it

1533
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:13,160
Speaker 1: was you know, it didn't feel like and you did

1534
01:19:13,160 --> 01:19:16,360
Speaker 1: see parents, you know, look, we were looked that weird

1535
01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:19,000
Speaker 1: when we let our kid play football in high school.

1536
01:19:20,520 --> 01:19:22,479
Speaker 1: Not anymore. And that's literally four years.

1537
01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:25,200
Speaker 4: Later, and Trump had sort of turned it into like

1538
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:27,680
Speaker 4: a real culture war, and it was it was no,

1539
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:29,400
Speaker 4: it was. I mean, God tell, I don't think any

1540
01:19:29,439 --> 01:19:32,240
Speaker 4: great genius, but he was. He didn't know what to do.

1541
01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:34,200
Speaker 4: I mean he kind of he just sort of was

1542
01:19:34,240 --> 01:19:39,680
Speaker 4: assuming that football's dominance of just the American imagination and

1543
01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:44,200
Speaker 4: culture and screens and profess for television, and what happened.

1544
01:19:44,240 --> 01:19:47,880
Speaker 1: Well, he's also benefited. Every time they've done something for safety,

1545
01:19:48,040 --> 01:19:52,120
Speaker 1: it's increased offense. So if the safety we're in, we're

1546
01:19:52,320 --> 01:19:58,040
Speaker 1: lowering scores, then safety wouldn't be prioritized. But these safety issues,

1547
01:19:58,120 --> 01:20:01,080
Speaker 1: meaning the fact that a guy like I, you know,

1548
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:03,760
Speaker 1: can go across the middle of the field and get

1549
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:07,599
Speaker 1: your pass without getting their head knocked off, is why

1550
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:11,840
Speaker 1: scoring is up. Is why offense seems prioritized, why the

1551
01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:14,160
Speaker 1: quarterback has never been more important than it is now,

1552
01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:18,479
Speaker 1: and why they can claim that they've prioritized player.

1553
01:20:18,320 --> 01:20:22,280
Speaker 4: Safety no question. Look, it's a it's a bull. I mean,

1554
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:24,960
Speaker 4: it's like it's as corrupt as politics. I'm going to

1555
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:28,200
Speaker 4: I will watch so much football this fall. I assume

1556
01:20:28,240 --> 01:20:32,519
Speaker 4: you will too. We both probably know better, I will say.

1557
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:34,760
Speaker 4: By the way, side note, I am way back to

1558
01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:37,200
Speaker 4: baseball in the way I haven't been in years. Baseball,

1559
01:20:37,479 --> 01:20:38,479
Speaker 4: Good for you, are you?

1560
01:20:39,080 --> 01:20:39,280
Speaker 2: Are you?

1561
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:42,880
Speaker 4: That's a Red Sox completely. That was one third one

1562
01:20:42,880 --> 01:20:45,920
Speaker 4: o'clock watching again Seattle last night. Now, I mean they're

1563
01:20:45,920 --> 01:20:48,719
Speaker 4: a mediocre team, they're maddening, they're always having some drama.

1564
01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:50,080
Speaker 1: No, that's how you know.

1565
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:52,519
Speaker 2: No, it's a pitch clock. I did a covert.

1566
01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:56,080
Speaker 1: The pitch clock is legit. It really. Look the baseball

1567
01:20:56,120 --> 01:20:58,360
Speaker 1: games really are under three hours now all the time,

1568
01:20:58,640 --> 01:21:00,400
Speaker 1: all the time. Two and a half, very.

1569
01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:02,799
Speaker 4: Few two and a half now, I mean the Socks

1570
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:05,280
Speaker 4: and Mariners last night started like quarter of ten East

1571
01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:07,559
Speaker 4: Coast time that I was in bed by midnight, which

1572
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:09,800
Speaker 4: you know for a West or for maybe twelve thirty,

1573
01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:11,599
Speaker 4: but for a West Coast game, it's great.

1574
01:21:11,760 --> 01:21:14,120
Speaker 1: The Nats start at six forty five now when they're home,

1575
01:21:14,560 --> 01:21:16,880
Speaker 1: game is always over before nine, almost always over four

1576
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:19,360
Speaker 1: nine o'clock, and it is like, oh, I can stay

1577
01:21:19,439 --> 01:21:22,280
Speaker 1: up for the whole thing because that's the other part right.

1578
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:24,240
Speaker 2: Hot.

1579
01:21:24,479 --> 01:21:29,080
Speaker 1: I was watching Big my new favorite thing. Yeah, MLB

1580
01:21:29,200 --> 01:21:33,599
Speaker 1: app beginning Do you watch it Big Kidding? Yes, at

1581
01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:36,200
Speaker 1: the beginning and then the rundown in the morning. Do

1582
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:37,960
Speaker 1: you watch that? No?

1583
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:39,280
Speaker 2: But I definitely watched it.

1584
01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:43,599
Speaker 1: I highly recommend it. MLB app The Rundown. It's it's

1585
01:21:43,640 --> 01:21:46,720
Speaker 1: a three minute highlight of every game stitched together, and

1586
01:21:46,760 --> 01:21:51,160
Speaker 1: it's basically all the scoring. So it's three it's it is,

1587
01:21:51,280 --> 01:21:53,120
Speaker 1: it's you know, when it's a full slate, it's forty

1588
01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:56,080
Speaker 1: five minutes. So I put it on, I make my coffee,

1589
01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:58,200
Speaker 1: I get ready. It's like, you know, what's it called

1590
01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:00,400
Speaker 1: the Rundown. It's called the Rundown and it's on the

1591
01:22:00,400 --> 01:22:01,320
Speaker 1: app MLB app.

1592
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:02,840
Speaker 2: All right, that full disclosure.

1593
01:22:02,920 --> 01:22:05,240
Speaker 4: The time before I came on with you, I was

1594
01:22:05,320 --> 01:22:08,519
Speaker 4: in addition to reading all the Rafael Devers Devs trade coverage.

1595
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:11,120
Speaker 1: You're not angry about Devers. Do you feel about Devers

1596
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:12,800
Speaker 1: the way you felt about the Mookie Bets trade?

1597
01:22:12,840 --> 01:22:17,640
Speaker 4: Oh no, no, mookie Bets was was generationally and existentially

1598
01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:21,320
Speaker 4: like hurtful in all ways. No, I think it's a

1599
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:23,080
Speaker 4: defensible move. I would have liked to have seen a

1600
01:22:23,120 --> 01:22:25,080
Speaker 4: bigger return, but get much.

1601
01:22:25,360 --> 01:22:28,360
Speaker 1: But Devers had a I wasn't a tradeable asset.

1602
01:22:29,040 --> 01:22:31,200
Speaker 2: He's also not a I just don't think he's that

1603
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:32,240
Speaker 2: relevant to winning.

1604
01:22:32,479 --> 01:22:34,639
Speaker 4: I mean, I think obviously it's great that his bat

1605
01:22:34,680 --> 01:22:37,080
Speaker 4: was in the lineup, but the way he handled himself

1606
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:38,840
Speaker 4: in the length of his contract.

1607
01:22:39,400 --> 01:22:41,760
Speaker 1: And though for most of my life I was a

1608
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:45,400
Speaker 1: Dodger fan, I became a well, I'm a Nats fan.

1609
01:22:46,280 --> 01:22:48,640
Speaker 1: I'm all in. You know. I didn't grow up with

1610
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:52,280
Speaker 1: any baseball because we didn't have baseball Miami. And when

1611
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:54,040
Speaker 1: DC got a team, I've always wanted to live in

1612
01:22:54,080 --> 01:22:55,639
Speaker 1: a place where I could go to Major League Baseball.

1613
01:22:55,640 --> 01:22:59,120
Speaker 1: So I'm in my son, Look the Nats. That decade

1614
01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:02,559
Speaker 1: my son was you know, the neckade of the Nats,

1615
01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:04,680
Speaker 1: which was that the teens, and they were terrific. It

1616
01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:07,200
Speaker 1: was a great, you know, eight year run there. You know,

1617
01:23:07,479 --> 01:23:10,240
Speaker 1: that was his prime age, right, It's when he became

1618
01:23:10,280 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 1: a fan. It's like, it's like, what happened to me?

1619
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:13,920
Speaker 1: The Dodgers won a World Series when I was nine,

1620
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:18,519
Speaker 1: the Dodgers, the Nats win a World Series nine eighty one.

1621
01:23:18,640 --> 01:23:23,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was okay, that's the strike strike here? Yeah, okay, And.

1622
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:28,680
Speaker 1: It is so when it happens that way. And so

1623
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:30,519
Speaker 1: I've all I'm all in on the Nats. But I

1624
01:23:30,560 --> 01:23:33,439
Speaker 1: will say this as a as you know, I still

1625
01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:36,760
Speaker 1: I still can't quit the old Dodgers. Like I'm a

1626
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:39,720
Speaker 1: baseball card collector. So I love Roy Campanella's behind me.

1627
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:42,000
Speaker 1: I love all those old guys. My dad's favorite player

1628
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:46,080
Speaker 1: was Campanella, so I sort of like, yeah, well no,

1629
01:23:46,160 --> 01:23:48,320
Speaker 1: my dad grew up in Iowa. He met Roy Campanella

1630
01:23:48,320 --> 01:23:50,920
Speaker 1: as a kid in Chicago and it was one of

1631
01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:53,320
Speaker 1: those things that stuck, you know, how you just meet

1632
01:23:53,320 --> 01:23:55,599
Speaker 1: a guy and he met him and camp Be couldn't

1633
01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:57,919
Speaker 1: have been nicer. It was at a hotel in Chicago,

1634
01:23:58,520 --> 01:24:01,040
Speaker 1: and it was, you know, one of those moments. My

1635
01:24:01,880 --> 01:24:04,559
Speaker 1: dad's sister tells the same story, Like sometimes your parents

1636
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:05,920
Speaker 1: tell you stories and you don't know if it's true

1637
01:24:05,960 --> 01:24:08,120
Speaker 1: or not. But this I've had a second source. I've

1638
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:12,280
Speaker 1: got it confirmed. It's a legit story. But I will

1639
01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:14,120
Speaker 1: tell you this, The Giants always find a way to

1640
01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:16,400
Speaker 1: take a guy like Devers and turn him into a

1641
01:24:16,439 --> 01:24:21,920
Speaker 1: goddamn Hall of Famer. So I giants have there. They

1642
01:24:21,960 --> 01:24:25,800
Speaker 1: never have the best roster, and yet they always figure

1643
01:24:25,840 --> 01:24:27,400
Speaker 1: out how to be better than you think they are.

1644
01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:30,040
Speaker 1: So I don't know. I mean, if you told me

1645
01:24:30,080 --> 01:24:33,080
Speaker 1: Devers as an MVP rest of the season with the Giants,

1646
01:24:33,080 --> 01:24:33,760
Speaker 1: wouldn't shock me.

1647
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:37,800
Speaker 4: Maybe he's a great hitter, He's like kind of Manny Ramirez,

1648
01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:40,479
Speaker 4: he's I mean, by the way, no shame in being

1649
01:24:40,479 --> 01:24:42,680
Speaker 4: a Bret of many Ramirez or Miguel Cabrera. He just

1650
01:24:42,720 --> 01:24:43,519
Speaker 4: has one skill.

1651
01:24:44,400 --> 01:24:46,120
Speaker 1: The socks for sale? Is that what's going on?

1652
01:24:46,240 --> 01:24:49,439
Speaker 4: By the way, No, I mean John Henry, the owner

1653
01:24:49,600 --> 01:24:51,679
Speaker 4: is they used to be like a big market team,

1654
01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:52,519
Speaker 4: but they've been operating.

1655
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:55,120
Speaker 1: Why are they behaving this way? You know?

1656
01:24:55,320 --> 01:24:58,080
Speaker 4: He's I mean, first of all, they figure they won

1657
01:24:58,200 --> 01:25:01,799
Speaker 4: four World Series a century. They want to be more

1658
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:04,280
Speaker 4: Tampa Bay raided like so they can keep more money.

1659
01:25:04,400 --> 01:25:07,000
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, they own Liverpool, they own the Pittsburgh Penguins.

1660
01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:10,040
Speaker 4: There are their own formula ones. I mean, they're definitely

1661
01:25:11,120 --> 01:25:13,639
Speaker 4: a big business now in a way that they weren't before.

1662
01:25:13,680 --> 01:25:15,559
Speaker 4: But yeah, they catch a lot of heat. And the

1663
01:25:15,600 --> 01:25:18,559
Speaker 4: mookie thing was a again that was an original sin

1664
01:25:18,720 --> 01:25:21,439
Speaker 4: for this century, it was for last century. But I

1665
01:25:21,439 --> 01:25:23,080
Speaker 4: don't put Devers in that category at all.

1666
01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:28,719
Speaker 1: Interesting, Well, buddy, I could I have no idea whether

1667
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:30,760
Speaker 1: you know, us just sort of vamping like this was

1668
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:31,479
Speaker 1: a good idea or not.

1669
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:33,880
Speaker 4: But this is why it's just going to be the

1670
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:36,960
Speaker 4: new media thing. People are, you know what, whether Democrats

1671
01:25:37,600 --> 01:25:39,479
Speaker 4: there will be some entity in the media who says,

1672
01:25:39,520 --> 01:25:41,280
Speaker 4: you know, we need another Todd and leave a bitch.

1673
01:25:41,360 --> 01:25:43,720
Speaker 4: You know, Democrats like, oh, we needed Joe Rogan And

1674
01:25:43,760 --> 01:25:46,280
Speaker 4: I'm not putting a partisan lem No, no, I.

1675
01:25:46,280 --> 01:25:47,640
Speaker 1: Just find that to be you know, it's sort of

1676
01:25:47,680 --> 01:25:50,880
Speaker 1: like it's funny the idea you can manufacture these things.

1677
01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:53,679
Speaker 1: I mean, this is like Al Gore trying to create

1678
01:25:53,720 --> 01:25:57,559
Speaker 1: liberal talk radio. It's not going to work. You can't

1679
01:25:57,600 --> 01:26:01,400
Speaker 1: manufacture it. People are either if if it's if you if,

1680
01:26:01,680 --> 01:26:05,719
Speaker 1: if you're if you're compelling, people will come go find

1681
01:26:05,800 --> 01:26:09,479
Speaker 1: compelling places to go, meet voters where they are. Stop

1682
01:26:09,560 --> 01:26:12,840
Speaker 1: trying to bring This is the Democratic Party's problem. They

1683
01:26:12,840 --> 01:26:15,840
Speaker 1: continue to try to drag people to them rather than

1684
01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:18,760
Speaker 1: to go go where people are right. So I go

1685
01:26:18,880 --> 01:26:21,360
Speaker 1: agree with the voter instead of making the voter agree

1686
01:26:21,400 --> 01:26:21,640
Speaker 1: with you.

1687
01:26:21,840 --> 01:26:24,160
Speaker 4: Hey, as I did a thing on Gavin Newsom a

1688
01:26:24,200 --> 01:26:26,320
Speaker 4: couple of days ago, and he's like, you know, he's

1689
01:26:26,600 --> 01:26:29,439
Speaker 4: he's had a pretty interesting week, I mean, getting arrested.

1690
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:31,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. I will say this every time I'm

1691
01:26:31,760 --> 01:26:34,519
Speaker 1: ready to write him off. I'm like, I don't know, man,

1692
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:38,519
Speaker 1: he's he's sort of he's a good political athlete. I

1693
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:40,120
Speaker 1: still think a guy who is the mayor of San

1694
01:26:40,160 --> 01:26:42,200
Speaker 1: Francisco can never get elected president of the United States.

1695
01:26:42,280 --> 01:26:44,280
Speaker 1: And that's not because he's Gavin Newsom. It's because he

1696
01:26:44,320 --> 01:26:45,880
Speaker 1: was the mayor of San Francisco. And I just think

1697
01:26:46,240 --> 01:26:49,400
Speaker 1: I think San Francisco is is considered too outside of

1698
01:26:49,400 --> 01:26:53,120
Speaker 1: mainstream culture, fair or unfair. I just you know, I don't.

1699
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:55,240
Speaker 1: But I also used to think that of New York City.

1700
01:26:55,760 --> 01:26:57,840
Speaker 1: So I'm not going to I don't want to write

1701
01:26:57,880 --> 01:26:58,200
Speaker 1: it off.

1702
01:26:58,720 --> 01:27:01,559
Speaker 4: You can't write he can't anything off convention wisdom. I mean,

1703
01:27:02,240 --> 01:27:04,240
Speaker 4: America is not ready for a black president. Donald Trump

1704
01:27:04,240 --> 01:27:06,320
Speaker 4: will never be nominated, Donald Trump will be now never

1705
01:27:06,479 --> 01:27:08,400
Speaker 4: be elected. Blah blah blah. You know, we don't know

1706
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:11,240
Speaker 4: what we're talking about. But you've got to be a

1707
01:27:11,240 --> 01:27:13,599
Speaker 4: really good actor and a really good performer to come

1708
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:14,800
Speaker 4: off authentic.

1709
01:27:16,240 --> 01:27:16,880
Speaker 2: One of the great.

1710
01:27:16,960 --> 01:27:19,000
Speaker 1: You know, why do you think George Cloud is not

1711
01:27:19,040 --> 01:27:21,519
Speaker 1: ticket seriously as a presidential candidate. I don't think that

1712
01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:23,759
Speaker 1: the White House on Lake Como is a good idea.

1713
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:27,519
Speaker 4: You know what, who knows? Who knows? Maybe you know

1714
01:27:27,600 --> 01:27:30,280
Speaker 4: what Obama's probably they were advising him. Now he would

1715
01:27:30,320 --> 01:27:31,080
Speaker 4: come full circle.

1716
01:27:31,640 --> 01:27:32,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have.

1717
01:27:32,680 --> 01:27:35,200
Speaker 4: Obama has been a guest at the Lake Como estate

1718
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:35,960
Speaker 4: of George cleaning.

1719
01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:40,640
Speaker 1: I am happy to come if he wants to invite me.

1720
01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:42,720
Speaker 2: I'm willing.

1721
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:44,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, the same thing.

1722
01:27:44,800 --> 01:27:47,040
Speaker 2: We're I think I've taken too much of your time, you.

1723
01:27:47,320 --> 01:27:49,680
Speaker 1: Know I've I've I've hogged you.

1724
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:53,200
Speaker 2: No, I will always a pleasure. We'll do it again.

1725
01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:55,280
Speaker 1: I will be bugging you again. Take your brother.

1726
01:28:04,720 --> 01:28:04,880
Speaker 2: Well.

1727
01:28:04,880 --> 01:28:08,479
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Mark Leviovich there

1728
01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:11,320
Speaker 1: you Maybe you learned a little bit more about my

1729
01:28:11,439 --> 01:28:16,280
Speaker 1: bizarre sports fandom and his less bizarre sports fandom. There.

1730
01:28:17,439 --> 01:28:19,360
Speaker 1: I'd say, a tough time to be a Boston sports

1731
01:28:19,360 --> 01:28:21,360
Speaker 1: fan these days, right, But you know what, they had

1732
01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:24,280
Speaker 1: a nice twenty year run this century, so you know what,

1733
01:28:24,680 --> 01:28:28,080
Speaker 1: they can eat it for a little while. So enjoy

1734
01:28:28,160 --> 01:28:30,960
Speaker 1: sucking for a little while, Boston. All right, Maybe I

1735
01:28:31,040 --> 01:28:33,000
Speaker 1: just alienated a whole bunch of fan base. Sorry, Billefer

1736
01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:35,960
Speaker 1: you if you're still listening, let me take a couple

1737
01:28:35,960 --> 01:28:41,960
Speaker 1: of questions. Little last Chuck asked Chuck. This one comes

1738
01:28:41,960 --> 01:28:45,240
Speaker 1: from Alexander ask from Albuquerque, New Mexico. Hey, staying on

1739
01:28:45,240 --> 01:28:48,519
Speaker 1: my theme of June seventeenth has nothing to do with

1740
01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:49,920
Speaker 1: what I just would talked to you about earlier in

1741
01:28:49,960 --> 01:28:52,880
Speaker 1: the pod, but he said today June seventeenth, I was

1742
01:28:52,880 --> 01:28:55,320
Speaker 1: looking at polling on Real Clear Politics and Insider Advantage.

1743
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:58,799
Speaker 1: Poll shows that Trump's approval is that fifty four percent disapproval,

1744
01:28:58,800 --> 01:29:01,960
Speaker 1: while PEWS is that forty one percent and fifty eight percent.

1745
01:29:02,320 --> 01:29:03,960
Speaker 1: As someone who wants to see the majority of the

1746
01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:06,599
Speaker 1: country said, politicians a clear message, which one should I believe?

1747
01:29:06,840 --> 01:29:09,959
Speaker 1: How can two relatively respected polling companies have such diverging

1748
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:13,920
Speaker 1: results in the same day. Thanks, Well, I'm not going

1749
01:29:13,920 --> 01:29:16,800
Speaker 1: to agree with you that these are two relatively well

1750
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:20,000
Speaker 1: respected polling companies. Insider Advantage has had lots of question

1751
01:29:20,040 --> 01:29:24,680
Speaker 1: marks about They seem to have a reputation of massaging

1752
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:27,680
Speaker 1: their numbers, always having a little it makes things a

1753
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:29,719
Speaker 1: little too good for the right side of the aisle,

1754
01:29:30,960 --> 01:29:33,759
Speaker 1: which is you know, this will be why Real Clear

1755
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:35,840
Speaker 1: and Nate Silver will say, well, this is why you've

1756
01:29:35,840 --> 01:29:37,400
Speaker 1: got to you know, you're going to have a house

1757
01:29:37,439 --> 01:29:39,800
Speaker 1: effect with some partisan polsters. You're going to have a

1758
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:41,800
Speaker 1: house effect with others who maybe lean too much to

1759
01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:44,040
Speaker 1: the left. That's why you should average them all together.

1760
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:48,400
Speaker 1: My problem is I don't like this type of trying

1761
01:29:48,439 --> 01:29:51,360
Speaker 1: to analyze polling that way, because when you combine it all, Look,

1762
01:29:51,400 --> 01:29:53,439
Speaker 1: there are good polls and there are bad polls, right,

1763
01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:55,400
Speaker 1: just like there are good journalistic outlets and they are

1764
01:29:55,400 --> 01:29:59,760
Speaker 1: bad journalistic outlets. I will tell you this, here's how

1765
01:29:59,800 --> 01:30:02,800
Speaker 1: I feel about trying to take two disparate pieces of

1766
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:05,200
Speaker 1: data and merging them and thinking you're going to get

1767
01:30:05,200 --> 01:30:09,920
Speaker 1: better data. If you think good data plus bad data

1768
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:13,840
Speaker 1: equals better data, then ask me this. Does mixing a

1769
01:30:13,880 --> 01:30:18,439
Speaker 1: Filet Mignon with dog shit make the dog shit tastes

1770
01:30:18,520 --> 01:30:22,120
Speaker 1: like Filet Mignon or will it make everything taste like shit?

1771
01:30:22,760 --> 01:30:23,000
Speaker 2: Right?

1772
01:30:23,160 --> 01:30:25,640
Speaker 1: You put a point is I can put poles in

1773
01:30:25,680 --> 01:30:28,800
Speaker 1: a blender and I'm going to get shittier numbers, and

1774
01:30:28,880 --> 01:30:31,320
Speaker 1: you're just not gonna I could put a Filet Mignon

1775
01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:33,640
Speaker 1: and dog Maneure in there and it's all going to

1776
01:30:33,760 --> 01:30:40,160
Speaker 1: taste like dog Maneure. The bad data poisons everything. So look, uh,

1777
01:30:41,360 --> 01:30:44,800
Speaker 1: sometimes poles just have house effects. And if they have

1778
01:30:44,840 --> 01:30:47,559
Speaker 1: house effects that are consistent, then I would tell you

1779
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:52,439
Speaker 1: look for trend lines. Trump's the Trump constituency has been

1780
01:30:52,479 --> 01:30:58,240
Speaker 1: among the hardest two track in many ways. There's a

1781
01:30:58,240 --> 01:31:01,240
Speaker 1: lot of distrust with the media in general. So if

1782
01:31:01,240 --> 01:31:04,760
Speaker 1: you if you if you say you're a media sponsored poll,

1783
01:31:04,880 --> 01:31:07,400
Speaker 1: sometimes people won't participate. So you've got to be careful

1784
01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:11,080
Speaker 1: of a lot of those things. So I always look,

1785
01:31:11,200 --> 01:31:14,920
Speaker 1: you know, look at trend lines and if you'll see

1786
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:17,800
Speaker 1: the you know, if the trend lines match, maybe the

1787
01:31:17,880 --> 01:31:21,120
Speaker 1: numbers are off. You know, focus. You know, one pole

1788
01:31:21,160 --> 01:31:23,719
Speaker 1: in isolation, even from a good pollster, can be wrong.

1789
01:31:25,160 --> 01:31:27,120
Speaker 1: So you want to look at any poles trend line.

1790
01:31:27,160 --> 01:31:29,479
Speaker 1: That's why I don't like to mix these things. I

1791
01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:33,800
Speaker 1: like Pew, and I like Pew over time. They do

1792
01:31:33,880 --> 01:31:37,880
Speaker 1: some really quality work. They care, they and it's very transparent.

1793
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:40,040
Speaker 1: You'll have other polling firms that will put out a

1794
01:31:40,080 --> 01:31:42,599
Speaker 1: top line number, but they won't tell you, you know,

1795
01:31:42,760 --> 01:31:44,880
Speaker 1: is this part of a larger questionnaire? Is this all

1796
01:31:44,920 --> 01:31:48,799
Speaker 1: of this, especially the partisan polls, or this insider advantage stuff,

1797
01:31:49,240 --> 01:31:51,320
Speaker 1: which is a little questionable. I'm not a big fan

1798
01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:54,000
Speaker 1: of these IVR polls, which are known as the interactive poles.

1799
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:56,479
Speaker 1: Were literally press a button if you like this, press

1800
01:31:56,479 --> 01:31:59,639
Speaker 1: a button if you like that. I I there's been

1801
01:31:59,760 --> 01:32:03,360
Speaker 1: some inconsistency there, but look, there are there are poles

1802
01:32:03,400 --> 01:32:04,640
Speaker 1: that are going. Look, I'm not a big fan of

1803
01:32:04,640 --> 01:32:06,920
Speaker 1: you gov, and you see a lot of their data,

1804
01:32:07,000 --> 01:32:11,080
Speaker 1: so you know it's I have a couple of go

1805
01:32:11,120 --> 01:32:14,320
Speaker 1: to polls. I trust my old NBC News pollsters. I'm

1806
01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:16,000
Speaker 1: not a big you know, NBC News is now working

1807
01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:18,400
Speaker 1: with survey Monkey. I don't think it's as good as

1808
01:32:18,439 --> 01:32:22,760
Speaker 1: the work that public opinion research and heart research strategies

1809
01:32:22,800 --> 01:32:25,799
Speaker 1: and heart research do. And so I like those numbers.

1810
01:32:25,840 --> 01:32:28,719
Speaker 1: I like the Wall Street Journals, bipartisan team of posters,

1811
01:32:28,800 --> 01:32:34,120
Speaker 1: I like Foxes bipartisan team of polsters. Pew is a

1812
01:32:34,120 --> 01:32:38,559
Speaker 1: good one. So you know there are good polsters and

1813
01:32:38,600 --> 01:32:43,080
Speaker 1: there are bad pollsters. And so that's how I that's

1814
01:32:43,120 --> 01:32:47,360
Speaker 1: why I ignore the Pole compendium averages. I think the

1815
01:32:47,360 --> 01:32:51,600
Speaker 1: poll averages will mislead more often than they lead. And

1816
01:32:51,680 --> 01:32:54,080
Speaker 1: if you look at all these approval polls, you could

1817
01:32:54,120 --> 01:32:57,400
Speaker 1: sort of pit you see that there's there's not many

1818
01:32:57,439 --> 01:33:00,519
Speaker 1: polls that have Trump right side up. So you gotta

1819
01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:03,880
Speaker 1: ask yourself just an outlier, And if you have an

1820
01:33:03,880 --> 01:33:06,960
Speaker 1: outlier result, I'm glad when you report it. Let's see

1821
01:33:06,960 --> 01:33:09,640
Speaker 1: what it looks like in the next Pole. So, and

1822
01:33:09,840 --> 01:33:11,720
Speaker 1: you know I've been doing this long enough that you

1823
01:33:11,800 --> 01:33:13,400
Speaker 1: sit there and you're like, well that doesn't look right.

1824
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:16,680
Speaker 1: So then you sort of look. Sometimes you open up

1825
01:33:16,680 --> 01:33:18,839
Speaker 1: the hood of these poles if they'll give you enough information.

1826
01:33:19,160 --> 01:33:21,559
Speaker 1: And that's my beef with you gov. They don't do that.

1827
01:33:21,560 --> 01:33:24,759
Speaker 1: That's my beef with insider advantage. They're just a little

1828
01:33:24,800 --> 01:33:28,120
Speaker 1: too They obscure a little too much of their methodology.

1829
01:33:28,200 --> 01:33:32,040
Speaker 1: Hugh doesn't do that, The NBC, bipartisan posters don't do that.

1830
01:33:32,120 --> 01:33:36,000
Speaker 1: Needed the journals, so you know, how a pole is presented,

1831
01:33:36,479 --> 01:33:39,839
Speaker 1: how transparent are the pollsters. All of those things factor

1832
01:33:39,880 --> 01:33:41,960
Speaker 1: into whether you should find a pole believable or not.

1833
01:33:42,400 --> 01:33:44,400
Speaker 1: And I think I have a big beef with my

1834
01:33:44,400 --> 01:33:46,280
Speaker 1: friends at really Clear And like I said, I love

1835
01:33:46,320 --> 01:33:50,439
Speaker 1: my man Carl Cannon. Know those guys, I knew them

1836
01:33:50,439 --> 01:33:53,080
Speaker 1: going back to my old hotline days and love their

1837
01:33:53,240 --> 01:33:57,160
Speaker 1: entrepreneurial spirit, but they kind of treat all poles flat,

1838
01:33:57,320 --> 01:34:00,600
Speaker 1: you know, and sort of don't and and you know,

1839
01:34:00,640 --> 01:34:02,640
Speaker 1: there's just not enough. The other problem we have is

1840
01:34:03,000 --> 01:34:06,080
Speaker 1: too few media companies are conducting poles anymore, so you

1841
01:34:06,120 --> 01:34:09,360
Speaker 1: can have a handful of polsters sort of manipulate averages too.

1842
01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:11,960
Speaker 1: They're all trying to correct for it, but I just

1843
01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:15,400
Speaker 1: think it's a you know, Nate Silver does it slightly differently.

1844
01:34:15,680 --> 01:34:17,320
Speaker 1: You know, I had this conversation. I told him I'm

1845
01:34:17,320 --> 01:34:19,519
Speaker 1: not a big fan of it, and he goes he

1846
01:34:20,000 --> 01:34:23,040
Speaker 1: tries to give a waiting. You know, he at least

1847
01:34:23,040 --> 01:34:25,320
Speaker 1: tries to limit how much of the of the dog

1848
01:34:25,360 --> 01:34:28,599
Speaker 1: manure ends up in the blender, if you will, from

1849
01:34:28,640 --> 01:34:31,479
Speaker 1: bad data. But he is somebody, as a data scientist

1850
01:34:31,520 --> 01:34:33,519
Speaker 1: that thinks even bad data has something to teach you.

1851
01:34:35,040 --> 01:34:39,919
Speaker 1: And I don't disagree fully, but I certainly wouldn't combine

1852
01:34:39,920 --> 01:34:42,080
Speaker 1: it with what I know is good data. All right,

1853
01:34:42,840 --> 01:34:45,519
Speaker 1: Next question, Tony in Richmond writes, Dear Chuck, been a

1854
01:34:45,560 --> 01:34:47,920
Speaker 1: long time listener since your previous podcast. First a compliment,

1855
01:34:48,000 --> 01:34:50,080
Speaker 1: then a question. I listen as I work as a

1856
01:34:50,080 --> 01:34:52,400
Speaker 1: postal carrier, and back during the presidential election, I remember

1857
01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:54,439
Speaker 1: you talking to a guest about mail in ballots. You

1858
01:34:54,479 --> 01:34:56,360
Speaker 1: said something to the effective I'm not sure I completely

1859
01:34:56,400 --> 01:34:58,519
Speaker 1: trust the postal service, but I really like and trust

1860
01:34:58,600 --> 01:35:01,120
Speaker 1: my mail man. I appreciate both sides of that statement.

1861
01:35:01,200 --> 01:35:03,320
Speaker 1: My feelings towards your work as a journalist. If anyone

1862
01:35:03,320 --> 01:35:05,360
Speaker 1: should ask, is I'm not sure I trust the media

1863
01:35:05,360 --> 01:35:07,040
Speaker 1: as a whole. But I really like a trust check.

1864
01:35:07,080 --> 01:35:10,799
Speaker 1: Dodd fair point my highest compliment, So thank you. My question.

1865
01:35:10,960 --> 01:35:13,719
Speaker 1: During a conversation with a guest about campaign finance ethics,

1866
01:35:14,120 --> 01:35:16,599
Speaker 1: was mentioned that Virginia's ranked high on the negative side

1867
01:35:16,640 --> 01:35:20,680
Speaker 1: of that data. As the Virginia gubernatorial campaign heats up,

1868
01:35:20,720 --> 01:35:23,040
Speaker 1: what should an informed and curious voter watch for is

1869
01:35:23,080 --> 01:35:25,760
Speaker 1: inevitable flood of outside cash and had to begin. Even

1870
01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:28,240
Speaker 1: if Spamberger is a shoe in which I'd be okay with,

1871
01:35:28,439 --> 01:35:30,160
Speaker 1: I'd still like to keep an eye on funding for

1872
01:35:30,200 --> 01:35:36,120
Speaker 1: all involved. Thanks. Look, you actually had a good example

1873
01:35:36,200 --> 01:35:39,400
Speaker 1: of what happens when you have this ridiculous amount of money,

1874
01:35:39,880 --> 01:35:43,879
Speaker 1: unlimited money. Virginia's terrible campaign finance laws. They are awful.

1875
01:35:44,280 --> 01:35:47,599
Speaker 1: They literally let anybody, I mean unlimited funds, anybody can

1876
01:35:47,640 --> 01:35:50,360
Speaker 1: write you checks. It's there's a reason why all these

1877
01:35:50,400 --> 01:35:54,160
Speaker 1: political committees base themselves in Virginia. There's not much disclosure

1878
01:35:54,240 --> 01:35:58,040
Speaker 1: law or anything like that. We had a lieutenant governor

1879
01:35:58,360 --> 01:36:02,799
Speaker 1: democratic primary like Dominion. The big energy company in Virginia

1880
01:36:02,920 --> 01:36:07,160
Speaker 1: was essentially bankrolling one candidate and a something called a

1881
01:36:07,200 --> 01:36:10,840
Speaker 1: Clean Energy Initiative, which was obviously competing with dominion for

1882
01:36:11,280 --> 01:36:15,120
Speaker 1: subsidies and tax dollars, and you know they're you know

1883
01:36:15,240 --> 01:36:18,360
Speaker 1: also but certainly on the other side was bankrolling the

1884
01:36:18,400 --> 01:36:20,000
Speaker 1: other candidate. By the way, it was a fifty one

1885
01:36:20,000 --> 01:36:22,519
Speaker 1: to forty nine race, so they sort of almost canceled

1886
01:36:22,520 --> 01:36:25,160
Speaker 1: each other's money out. But this happens a lot. The

1887
01:36:25,200 --> 01:36:30,960
Speaker 1: big industries of Virginia just overwhelm and certainly will can

1888
01:36:31,040 --> 01:36:33,439
Speaker 1: easily put their finger on the scale for a candidate

1889
01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:40,400
Speaker 1: in ways. So look, that's it's hard to see. But

1890
01:36:40,479 --> 01:36:45,800
Speaker 1: what you might you might start to see sort of

1891
01:36:45,960 --> 01:36:49,920
Speaker 1: these committees with like weird names that pop up, you know,

1892
01:36:50,280 --> 01:36:53,800
Speaker 1: Virginian's you know, wanting you know, like I said, clean

1893
01:36:53,920 --> 01:36:57,400
Speaker 1: Energy Initiative or something like that. If the title of

1894
01:36:57,439 --> 01:37:02,920
Speaker 1: the organization sounds too agreeable to you, it's probably some

1895
01:37:03,040 --> 01:37:07,559
Speaker 1: dark money. That's that's from an industry. And look, you

1896
01:37:07,560 --> 01:37:10,760
Speaker 1: can dig around. There's good reporters with plenty of reporters

1897
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:13,360
Speaker 1: note this stuff. It's out there. They're good reporters in

1898
01:37:13,439 --> 01:37:17,000
Speaker 1: Virginia that note this. But you know, it's it's funny,

1899
01:37:17,040 --> 01:37:21,160
Speaker 1: it's not a voting issue. So other campaigns rarely amplify

1900
01:37:21,200 --> 01:37:23,519
Speaker 1: it because you know, even if one side's being bankrolled

1901
01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:27,320
Speaker 1: by one industry leader. Usually the other campaign uses that

1902
01:37:27,439 --> 01:37:31,479
Speaker 1: to go raise unlimited source of money from another company

1903
01:37:31,479 --> 01:37:34,680
Speaker 1: that might have a competing interest with the other. So

1904
01:37:35,200 --> 01:37:41,280
Speaker 1: now you you've picked that a scab here, tony of

1905
01:37:41,960 --> 01:37:44,559
Speaker 1: just you know, Virginia does a lot of things pretty well.

1906
01:37:44,600 --> 01:37:48,519
Speaker 1: It's a pretty in general. I feel like that the

1907
01:37:48,600 --> 01:37:54,120
Speaker 1: governance is, you know, fairly collaborative compared to other state

1908
01:37:54,200 --> 01:37:57,400
Speaker 1: legislatures and things like that. But the funding of elections

1909
01:37:57,400 --> 01:38:00,519
Speaker 1: in this state is so corruptible. I'm not saying it's

1910
01:38:00,560 --> 01:38:04,320
Speaker 1: creating a whole bunch of corupt people, but it's corruptible enterprise, right,

1911
01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:09,120
Speaker 1: you know. And and it's these like I said, you'll see,

1912
01:38:09,160 --> 01:38:13,120
Speaker 1: it's these independent groups that will pop up, and it's

1913
01:38:13,200 --> 01:38:16,160
Speaker 1: and it's usually the super negative ad on the opponent

1914
01:38:16,280 --> 01:38:18,280
Speaker 1: that will be done by the independent group because the

1915
01:38:18,320 --> 01:38:20,479
Speaker 1: candidate doesn't want to have to put their name on

1916
01:38:20,520 --> 01:38:23,160
Speaker 1: an attack ad. So that's how i'd watched that race.

1917
01:38:24,400 --> 01:38:28,760
Speaker 1: All right, what a week, Like I said, it's been,

1918
01:38:29,640 --> 01:38:31,360
Speaker 1: you know, but I said this last week, right, I

1919
01:38:31,439 --> 01:38:33,240
Speaker 1: used to you know, one of my jokes during the

1920
01:38:33,280 --> 01:38:38,080
Speaker 1: old during the Obama era, we wrote it on a

1921
01:38:38,080 --> 01:38:40,400
Speaker 1: whiteboard in the White House booth. You know, every day

1922
01:38:40,400 --> 01:38:42,240
Speaker 1: is a week and every week is a day, is

1923
01:38:42,280 --> 01:38:44,840
Speaker 1: how he felt well in the Trump era. I think

1924
01:38:44,880 --> 01:38:48,080
Speaker 1: it's every every day is a month, and every month

1925
01:38:48,160 --> 01:38:53,920
Speaker 1: is a day. And this week felt like many many

1926
01:38:53,960 --> 01:38:58,000
Speaker 1: months of news, didn't it? Well? I hope, I hope

1927
01:38:58,000 --> 01:38:59,920
Speaker 1: I helped some of you make sense of some of it.

1928
01:39:00,680 --> 01:39:04,280
Speaker 1: My apologies if I've only confused you more. Welcome to

1929
01:39:04,320 --> 01:39:09,360
Speaker 1: our current system of democracy. Hopefully we can make more

1930
01:39:09,400 --> 01:39:11,120
Speaker 1: and more sense of it as we go along. And

1931
01:39:11,160 --> 01:39:16,200
Speaker 1: with that, enjoy your weekend and the real start of summer.

1932
01:39:16,640 --> 01:39:19,040
Speaker 1: I think the next time we talk, we will be

1933
01:39:19,160 --> 01:39:24,920
Speaker 1: past the solstice and we will be sweating like the

1934
01:39:25,000 --> 01:39:26,880
Speaker 1: oldies with that until we upload again