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Speaker 1: In the early morning hours of July nineteenth, two thousand

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Speaker 1: and eight, police discovered the body of twenty four year

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Speaker 1: old Julie Burchett at an abandoned palette mill in Monticello, Kentucky.

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Speaker 1: She had been brutally murdered. Witnesses said they had seen

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Speaker 1: Julie attacked and stabbed by another woman at a house

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Speaker 1: party the night before, and that the party was thrown

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Speaker 1: by Hope White at her mother's house. Did you ever

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Speaker 1: have parties at your mom's house?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely not. My mother would not allow something like that

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Speaker 2: to go on.

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Speaker 1: So what did you think about this whole party story?

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Speaker 2: I thought it was bizarre and guyzy, and I really

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Speaker 2: didn't think that I had anything to worry about because

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Speaker 2: I thought, Okay, this is very easy to prove these

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Speaker 2: these people lion.

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Speaker 1: But regardless, Hope was arrested and convicted of the murder

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Speaker 1: of Julie Hicks bur chet.

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Speaker 2: My name is Hope Rena White and I've been in

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Speaker 2: prison for approsingly thirteen years in four months.

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Speaker 1: From LoVa for good. This is wrongful conviction with Maggie

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Speaker 1: Freeling today Hope White.

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Speaker 2: So I'm from Kentucky in a little small town named Monticello.

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Speaker 1: Hope White was born in July thirtieth, nineteen eighty two,

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Speaker 1: to Daryl and Tammy White.

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Speaker 2: We didn't have a lot of money growing up. My

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Speaker 2: mother did work, mostly just at restaurants that didn't pay

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Speaker 2: very much or give her many hours. I did look

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Speaker 2: up to my dad and think that he was the

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Speaker 2: coolest because he did drink and things like that.

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Speaker 1: As a young girl, Hope thought her dad just liked

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Speaker 1: to have a good time. But the truth was.

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Speaker 2: Watched my father suffer from mental illness and addiction to

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Speaker 2: drugs from alcohol.

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Speaker 1: As Hope got older, she says she followed in his footsteps.

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Speaker 2: By the age eleven, I was consigarette, local marijuana, drinking alcohol.

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Speaker 2: I could even go to the local bootleggers and buy

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Speaker 2: my own pont DeLisi. I was very I'm a very

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Speaker 2: attention seeking person, so I would hang out with whoever

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Speaker 2: gave me an attention. Sometimes I might even change my

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Speaker 2: values or my morals, even my appearance for other's approval.

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Speaker 1: But not everyone saw that side of Hope.

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Speaker 3: She was so fun, She was so outgoing, outspoken, passionate.

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Speaker 1: This is Brittany Hope's sister.

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Speaker 3: She is eleven years older than me, So she was

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Speaker 3: someone that I looked up to. My early memories of

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Speaker 3: her are almost a mother role rather than a sister.

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Speaker 3: She was very, very passionate about family, about making sure

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Speaker 3: that I had the same experiences as her children did.

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Speaker 1: Hope had her first daughter, Shonda, in nineteen ninety nine,

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Speaker 1: so she was sixteen when she had her first kid.

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Speaker 1: And if y'all are eleven years apart, you're actually pretty

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Speaker 1: close in age to your nieces and nephews.

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Speaker 4: Correct. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she has two daughters, and the first one is

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Speaker 3: five years younger than me, and the second one is

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Speaker 3: nine years younger than me. We kind of grew up

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Speaker 3: as sisters more so than aunt and niece, just because

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Speaker 3: we're so close in age.

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Speaker 1: When Hope gave birth to Shonda, she knew she wanted

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Speaker 1: a better life for her daughter than she had growing up,

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Speaker 1: but parenthood spun her life in a new direction.

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Speaker 2: Me and her father worked at various places in town.

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Speaker 2: It was a lot harder than what we thought it

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Speaker 2: would be. It didn't take as long to figure out

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Speaker 2: sailing marijuana and fills and was really fast money for

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Speaker 2: a small town. I began to feel powerful having tons

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Speaker 2: of friends and that money and that I wasn't used

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Speaker 2: to having.

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Speaker 1: But to her little sister Brittany, she was still the

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Speaker 1: same Hope at heart.

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Speaker 3: I remember she had and it seems like such a

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Speaker 3: small thing now, but she had went to the gas

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Speaker 3: station and got bug juice, which is these little juices

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Speaker 3: made for kids, and she had already gave them theirs,

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Speaker 3: they had already drank them. And I got home and

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Speaker 3: happened to see like a half empty one, you know,

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Speaker 3: on the counter. And before I could even so much

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Speaker 3: as get a disappointed look on my face, she whipped

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Speaker 3: one out of the fridge and was like, don't worry,

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Speaker 3: I got you one too. It just made me so

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Speaker 3: excited and so happy that even though I wasn't there

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Speaker 3: and she didn't have to get me something, it was

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Speaker 3: so touching to me knowing that she did not have

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Speaker 3: to do that.

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Speaker 1: Hope's second daughter, Desiree, was born in two thousand and three,

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Speaker 1: and two years later, Shanda and Desiree's father went to

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Speaker 1: prison for selling drugs. Hope was left to support her

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Speaker 1: family on her own, but soon she met someone new,

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Speaker 1: a man named Bobby Buster.

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Speaker 2: At first, our relationship was very good. We were good

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Speaker 2: for each other, we got each other sober. He got

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Speaker 2: a good job building houses, for example. I was at

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Speaker 2: home much the kids and force. He paid the bills

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Speaker 2: and everything. So we still didn't have a whole lot

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Speaker 2: of money, and I began listen that fast money. So

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Speaker 2: therefore I started sailing again, and eventually we started to

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Speaker 2: use again together. I started giving a bad one in

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Speaker 2: harder drugs. I began to do things that I wasn't

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Speaker 2: proud of. I'd live. She still, I was very depressed

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Speaker 2: and struggled with anger my whole life. So I acted

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Speaker 2: out a lot of times in violence, many different forms,

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Speaker 2: whether it was getting bangs, steeple, or even harm in myself.

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Speaker 1: Hope says that violence eventually showed up in her relationship

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Speaker 1: with Bobby. It started with their arguments, which soon erupted

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Speaker 1: into physical altercations. By the time Shonda was around nine

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Speaker 1: years old, the neighbors were starting to notice. The night

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Speaker 1: of the murder, there was a domestic violence called to

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Speaker 1: your house? Correct, Yes, can you tell me about that?

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Speaker 1: What happened?

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Speaker 2: Well? Our fight actually started at the lake.

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Speaker 1: On July nineteenth, two thousand and eight. Hope spent most

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Speaker 1: of the day shopping with her mom. Later When Bobby

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Speaker 1: got off work, Hope met up with him and their

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Speaker 1: friends Janet and Billy Burke. The four of them drove

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Speaker 1: out to f and T Lake, a few miles outside

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Speaker 1: of Monticello, to hang out and ride four wheelers. They

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Speaker 1: left for the lake about four thirty PM, and an

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Speaker 1: hour later, Bobby got a citation.

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Speaker 2: From Fish and Wild Laugh for Hopper writing his four

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Speaker 2: wheeler illegally because there's signs all over the place down there,

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Speaker 2: saying that those types of things aren't supposed to be

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Speaker 2: on the property.

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Speaker 1: The evening went downhill from there. Bobby and Hope got

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Speaker 1: into a fight.

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Speaker 2: I really don't even remember what we were fighting about.

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Speaker 2: I was drinking pretty heavily that day, and I do

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Speaker 2: remember a fight and at the lake, and it escalated.

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Speaker 2: I hit myself in the head with a rock at

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Speaker 2: the lake.

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Speaker 1: Once they got back to their apartment, the arguing continued.

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Speaker 1: At around nine pm, a neighbor reported hearing Hope and

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Speaker 1: Bobby fighting. Sometime after that, police received a second call

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Speaker 1: reporting a suspected domestic violence incident at their apartment. Finally,

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Speaker 1: at around eleven that night, the police showed up. They

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Speaker 1: first treated the cut on Hope's forehead from the rock

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Speaker 1: injury earlier that day, and then Deputy John Hurd arrested

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Speaker 1: Hope for an active bench warrant for an unpaid fine.

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Speaker 1: Former Monticello police officer Derek Lester was also at Hope's

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Speaker 1: apartment at that time, but he left top to a

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Speaker 1: reckless driving call. On the way, he drove by an

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Speaker 1: abandoned palette mill and noticed a familiar car parked in

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Speaker 1: the lot. It was one officers had been alerted to

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Speaker 1: pay attention to because its driver didn't have a license.

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Speaker 1: The car belonged to twenty four year old Julie Hicks Perchett,

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Speaker 1: so Officer Lester parked and walked towards the car with

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Speaker 1: a flashlight. As he approached, he saw Julie sprawled across

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Speaker 1: the front seat of her car. She had multiple stab

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Speaker 1: wounds on her body and was lying in a pool

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Speaker 1: of blood dead. This episode is underwritten by AIG, a

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Speaker 1: leading global insurance company. AIG is committed to corporate social

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Speaker 1: responsibility and to making a positive difference in the lives

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Speaker 1: of its employees and in the communities were they work

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Speaker 1: and live. In light of the compelling need for pro

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Speaker 1: bono legal assistance and in recognition of AIG's commitment to

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Speaker 1: criminal and social justice reform, The AIG pro Bono program

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Speaker 1: provides free legal services and other support to underrepresented communities

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Speaker 1: and individuals. As soon as officer Lester found the body

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Speaker 1: at twelve thirty six am, he made a distraught call

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Speaker 1: to his department. He needed all hands on deck at

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Speaker 1: the mill. Officers immediately released Hope from custody and went

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Speaker 1: to the crime scene, and it was a spectacle. People

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Speaker 1: throughout the neighborhood, including Bobby and Hope, gathered to see

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Speaker 1: what the commotion was about. Hope had known Julie most

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Speaker 1: of their lives.

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Speaker 2: We rode the same school bus together our whole entire life,

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Speaker 2: going to school, and after we started hanging round together

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Speaker 2: when we got older, when she got into doing drugs

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Speaker 2: and had got into seal and drugs, she would actually

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Speaker 2: come and buy them from me.

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Speaker 1: The investigation into Julie's murder lasted almost a full year.

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Speaker 1: Witnesses said they had seen Julie's car at the mill

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Speaker 1: starting at ten thirty that morning, and they had seen

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Speaker 1: her coming and going. Her car, however, remained there throughout

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Speaker 1: the day with different men passing by, until about seven

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Speaker 1: thirty PM. The minimal forensic evidence police collected at the

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Speaker 1: scene was of little value. Some of it wasn't tested

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Speaker 1: at all, and the items that were tested did not

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Speaker 1: return any fingerprints or DNA matches. The items included a

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Speaker 1: lighter that was found near Julie's car and a large

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Speaker 1: Jenco sweatshirt that appeared to have blood on it at

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Speaker 1: the time. The DNA samples on the sweatshirt weren't large

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Speaker 1: enough to develop a profile, and while the lighter was fingerprinted,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't tested for DNA at all. Fingernail scrapings were collected,

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Speaker 1: and multiple hairs were also found on Julie's body, clothes

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Speaker 1: and in the car, but none of this was tested

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Speaker 1: at the time of the investigation. The case went cold

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Speaker 1: for months, and then a man named Jason Miller was

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Speaker 1: arrested on felony drug charges.

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Speaker 5: He met with the lead detective for the state Police

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Speaker 5: and the prosecutor and said he knew something about the murder.

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Speaker 1: This is Miranda Hellman, an attorney with the Kentucky Innocence

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Speaker 1: Project who now represents Hope. Miranda says how exactly Jason

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Speaker 1: came forward is unknown.

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Speaker 5: Not a lot of it is recorded we do know

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Speaker 5: from there that they kind of took Jason out into

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Speaker 5: the county and had him try to walk through the narrative.

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Speaker 1: Jason Miller told police that the knight of Julie's murder,

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Speaker 1: he was at a party at Hope's mother's house and

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Speaker 1: that he had seen Hope kill Julie in a fight there.

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Speaker 1: His story was that Hope confronted Julie about sleeping with

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Speaker 1: her boyfriend and then stabbed her, spewing blood everywhere. Police

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Speaker 1: wanted more details.

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Speaker 5: So they actually take him on a ride along from

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Speaker 5: the courthouse where he's supposed to point out where the

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Speaker 5: party occurred, where Hope's mom lived, how things occurred, but

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Speaker 5: he couldn't identify the house, He couldn't identify the route.

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Speaker 5: Julie's cell phone was missing. He said that it was

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Speaker 5: in his car and he threw it out into the

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Speaker 5: woods on the way out of the neighborhood, you know,

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Speaker 5: away from Hope's mom's house, and then he had literally

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Speaker 5: the prosecutor and the police looking for a cell phone

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Speaker 5: in the ditch, but was never located.

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Speaker 1: Jason also couldn't say what date this happened, or what

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Speaker 1: Julie was wearing. Rather he gave the names of three

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Speaker 1: people he said, we're also at the party. The first

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Speaker 1: witness Jason named was Seth Frost, but Frost denied any

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Speaker 1: knowledge of the murder. Meanwhile, Adam Manning, the second witness,

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Speaker 1: was also in jail on a pending felony charge. When

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Speaker 1: he was questioned, Manning said he arrived at the party

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Speaker 1: at ten pm and that there were approximately thirty to

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Speaker 1: thirty five people there. He said the stabbing happened at

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Speaker 1: around midnight, but in a completely different location in the

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Speaker 1: house than where Jason Miller had placed it. Scotty Stanton,

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Speaker 1: the third witness Miller named, gave a statement different from

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Speaker 1: all the others. He said they went to the party

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Speaker 1: after a football game around eleven pm, although it wasn't

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Speaker 1: football season. He said they saw some girls arguing and left,

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Speaker 1: and he didn't see anything related to a stabbing. Stanton

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Speaker 1: couldn't give an exact date either.

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Speaker 4: None of it adds up.

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Speaker 5: No one's story is consistent enough to even really say

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Speaker 5: it happened on this day and time July, So you

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Speaker 5: know when all these people were supposed to be at

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Speaker 5: this party, but only three can tell you a story

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Speaker 5: that even points to Hope is incredibly concerning. And it's

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Speaker 5: not just concerning for me, you know, as a citizen

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Speaker 5: and me as a defense attorney, or.

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Speaker 4: Me as an advocate for Hope.

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Speaker 5: It's concerning in that, you know, why did they push

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Speaker 5: so hard to get this story? You know, why did

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Speaker 5: they use these people that had pending charges.

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Speaker 1: And despite the allegations that dozens of people were at

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Speaker 1: this party, no one called the police after Julie was

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Speaker 1: supposedly brutally murdered, and no one was identified or interviewed

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Speaker 1: from the alleged party other than Jason Miller and the

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Speaker 1: three witnesses he named.

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Speaker 4: One of them says they're there for an hour.

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Speaker 5: One of them says they're there for five minutes, and

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Speaker 5: that there was a fight in the back of the house.

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Speaker 5: I'm arguing Hope came out of the bathroom in the

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Speaker 5: back of the house and just picked up an knife.

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Speaker 5: No one really describes what the knife is, if it's

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Speaker 5: a kitchen knife, a pocket knife, two knives, one knife,

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Speaker 5: nobody really knows, and just stabs her.

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Speaker 1: The stories get even more confused from there.

256
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Speaker 5: Nobody says how many times, nobody really says where in

257
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Speaker 5: the house they all described the house as this open

258
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Speaker 5: floor plan had a pool table in the middle of

259
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Speaker 5: the living room and a chair in the corner, and

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Speaker 5: that Hope had walked out into this living room and

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Speaker 5: that's where the stabbing occurred, somewhere between the hallway and

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Speaker 5: the living room. And then everyone says they left. Jason

263
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Speaker 5: says he left as soon as that stabbing happens. Adam

264
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,040
Speaker 5: and Scottie say the same. So there's no testimony or

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Speaker 5: explanation about what happens after that, how a body would

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Speaker 5: have been transported, Who would have transported it. I've been

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Speaker 5: in Tammy's house multiple times. We actually had the layout

268
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Speaker 5: at trial the defense attorneys did to show whatever house

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Speaker 5: they were to describing couldn't have been Tammy's house.

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Speaker 4: It's not how her house is laid out.

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Speaker 1: Despite these shaky testimonies, police executed a search warrant for

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Speaker 1: Tammy White's house. They went in with cadaver dogs and luminol,

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Speaker 1: which is just like.

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Speaker 5: A spray that reacts to black light, and it will

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Speaker 5: react when it hits certain things. So one of the

276
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,920
Speaker 5: big ones' is blood or bodily fluids. So the quote

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Speaker 5: at trial was that when they hit the black light

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Speaker 5: in Tammy's house that it lit up like a Christmas tree,

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Speaker 5: and I've seen the photos it did that the walls,

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Speaker 5: the floor, every piece of this house looked like it

281
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,920
Speaker 5: was having a reaction to luminol. So they pull floor samples,

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Speaker 5: carpet samples, door, drywall, everything.

283
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Speaker 1: But when they tested these samples, no blood or DNA

284
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Speaker 1: showed up on any of them. Police also never interviewed

285
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Speaker 1: any of Tammy's neighbors to find out if they saw

286
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,840
Speaker 1: a party happening. These neighbors would have had a direct

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00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:58,960
Speaker 1: line of sight to the house and would have seen

288
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:03,440
Speaker 1: dozens of people and cars coming and going. The police, however,

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Speaker 1: did speak to Bobby.

290
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Speaker 2: The cops really pushed for him to sign safe evidence

291
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Speaker 2: against me, to say that this party did happen and

292
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Speaker 2: that he did witness a murder, And they really pushed

293
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Speaker 2: him to say that this is the truth and this

294
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:28,760
Speaker 2: is what's gonna happen, or we're going to charge you

295
00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:35,920
Speaker 2: for the murder. Also, it also said that they would

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Speaker 2: let him off his charges that he was facing if

297
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Speaker 2: he would just tell the truth about the whole murders.

298
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Speaker 1: But Bobby refused to lie. As the cops were pressuring

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Speaker 1: him to do Despite that, Hope was ultimately indicted on

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Speaker 1: August eighteenth, two thousand and nine.

301
00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,880
Speaker 2: When they first resided me, I wasn't really I wasn't

302
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,879
Speaker 2: really worried about it. I just thought, Okay, this is

303
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,360
Speaker 2: a mix up. It's very easy to prove the these

304
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,200
Speaker 2: sep a lion, and I have people to back me

305
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,400
Speaker 2: up where I was at, what I was doing. This

306
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,119
Speaker 2: will be cleared up in no time. I'll go to

307
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,880
Speaker 2: the accounting and get booked in and I will be released.

308
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 1: So Hope cooperated with the police. She had nothing to hide.

309
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,600
Speaker 2: They asked me for a sample my DNA I gave

310
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:36,200
Speaker 2: back to them. They asked me for at a lot

311
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,400
Speaker 2: of sector test I gave back to him, which I passed.

312
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,920
Speaker 1: Yet, investigators continued to focus on Hope as a prime suspect.

313
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,840
Speaker 2: Instead of doing any other investigation on any other lease

314
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 2: that they may have had at the time or could

315
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:57,159
Speaker 2: have done.

316
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,840
Speaker 1: Such as Julie's ex boyfriend at the time. Clues about

317
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,760
Speaker 1: this came from Julie's which was found in the trunk

318
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,400
Speaker 1: of her car. Inside it were numerous love letters from

319
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,520
Speaker 1: a man named Billy Shepherd alluding to buying her a

320
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,200
Speaker 1: wedding ring. And saying if he could not be with her,

321
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,800
Speaker 1: then he did not want to live. Shepherd also called

322
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Speaker 1: Julie on the afternoon of her murder, but he was

323
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:26,400
Speaker 1: never investigated. Police also had another suspect, Rodney Porter, who

324
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 1: drove a car that was seen at the mill the

325
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 1: day Julie was murdered. Even though she was married at

326
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Speaker 1: the time, Porter was rumored to also have been in

327
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 1: a relationship with Julie.

328
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Speaker 5: He was a suspect for some amount of time. We

329
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,600
Speaker 5: know he's listed as a suspect in many of the

330
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:49,560
Speaker 5: police documents, and then about six months of investigation occurs

331
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Speaker 5: and at some point the suspect.

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Speaker 4: Changes to Hope.

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Speaker 5: Really, there's no explanation other than the story from Jason Miller.

334
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,679
Speaker 1: When you were at trial, did you think everything was

335
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:21,400
Speaker 1: going to work out?

336
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:27,160
Speaker 2: I absolutely did. I had faith in the justice system

337
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 2: that yes, the people didn't go to jail. So once

338
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 2: this happened to me, I realized now and by looking

339
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 2: at back at everything that's happened, of how much corruption

340
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,360
Speaker 2: is in a small town like the one I lived in.

341
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 1: Hope's trial started on April sixteenth, twenty ten. Prosecutor Matthew

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00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 1: Leverage laid out the state's case. He said that Hope

343
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 1: thought Bobby was cheating on her Julie, so she killed her.

344
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 1: To this allegation, Hope admits that she, Bobby, and Julie

345
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 1: sometimes participated in casual three zones, but it was all

346
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 1: mutually consensual.

347
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how the police they even knew that

348
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,639
Speaker 2: we had had these encounters in private, but they asked

349
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 2: me about them, and I was honest, and they kind

350
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,959
Speaker 2: of took their own a little bit of the truth

351
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 2: and sun it into their own theory and of events

352
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 2: that I supposedly played out in the non in question.

353
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Speaker 1: The prosecution called all four alleged witnesses once again. They

354
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: all gave different accounts, with very few details matching their

355
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 1: original statements or those of each other. The only person

356
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 1: whose story was consistent with what he told police was

357
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 1: Seth Frost.

358
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Speaker 5: He said, this didn't happen. He said, they've talked to

359
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 5: the police, they've threatened me. I'm terrified, but this never

360
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 5: happened and I'm not going to say it did. So

361
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,160
Speaker 5: the jury, here's testimony from these witnesses talking about this party,

362
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 5: with the understanding that we're going to find Julie's blood

363
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 5: in this house and its damning evidence against Hope.

364
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, there.

365
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 5: Was no blood found on any of the items submitted

366
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 5: from Tammy's house. Nothing ties anyone to this murder, and

367
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 5: most certainly does not tie Hope or her home or

368
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 5: her mother's home to Julian anyway.

369
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 1: There was also no blood found outside of Julie's car.

370
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: The inside of the car, though, was soaked in blood,

371
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: indicating that the murder happened inside the car, which totally

372
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: invalidated the story of the stabbing at Tammy White's house.

373
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 1: When it came to the physical evidence, the prosecution reiterated

374
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: that the case lacked forensic evidence. Except there actually was some.

375
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: It was either just untested or simply did not incriminate Hope.

376
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: Yet the jury never heard this.

377
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 5: Much of the trial felt like smoke and mirrors. It

378
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,479
Speaker 5: was alluding to what you're going to hear and then

379
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 5: you never hear it, alluding to there's you know, there's

380
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 5: evidence against her. But really the evidence were just these

381
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 5: eyewitness statements that truly weren't I don't believe believable eyewitness statements.

382
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: So Hope's public defenders, Jim Cox and Teresa Whittaker were

383
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: left to try and discredit these supposed eyewitnesses and their stories.

384
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: They called a witness who said he saw Hope and

385
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 1: Bobby at the lake that day, and that he drove

386
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 1: past Tammy's house later that night and didn't see any party.

387
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 1: Hope also testified at her trial, as did Bobby. He

388
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 1: said Hope was with him all day and night and

389
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 1: they were not at a party. Did you ever have

390
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 1: parties at your mom's house?

391
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 2: Absolutely not. My mother would not allow something like that

392
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 2: to go on. She knew that I did drugs and

393
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 2: stuff sometimes that she was basically she would be in

394
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,479
Speaker 2: mind but all the time about what I should be

395
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 2: doing and what I should not be doing, and what

396
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 2: my kids should and should not be around, and she

397
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 2: would never allow something like that to go on in

398
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 2: her home.

399
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: They also called Hope's younger sister, Brittany to the stand. Brittany,

400
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: who lived with their mother Tammy, had been home alone

401
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: all evening.

402
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 5: She testified that she vividly remembered this phone call that

403
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 5: she had with her friend. Her friend actually testified too

404
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 5: that yes, I was on the phone with Brittany all night.

405
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 5: We talked till two o'clock in the morning, and I

406
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 5: don't think there was a party there. Tammy was not

407
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 5: home that night, so Brittany was home alone.

408
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 3: I had never been in a courtroom before, had never

409
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,479
Speaker 3: been in front of a judge. I remember being so scared,

410
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 3: especially whenever it was the prosecution turn. I understood enough

411
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 3: to know that they were going to try to say

412
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 3: things to confuse me or maybe make it look like

413
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 3: I wasn't telling the truth, things like that. So it

414
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 3: was really terrifying, and I felt a lot of weight,

415
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 3: you know, from making sure I said the right thing

416
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 3: and not saying something incorrectly or it come off incorrectly,

417
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 3: just because I didn't know how to word it because

418
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 3: I was a kid, you know, when it happened.

419
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: The defense stressed to the jury that there was no

420
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: way this party happened and that Hope could not have

421
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: killed Julie at the same time she was at the

422
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,959
Speaker 1: lake or at the same time police were at her

423
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 1: apartment responding to the domestic violence call. But that is

424
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: all they could do.

425
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 5: You know, it's very hard to say those three people

426
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 5: are lying and this party never happened, because you know,

427
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 5: what proof do you have of the negative? So it

428
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 5: was really It was a struggle at trial to be

429
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 5: able to disprove, you know, no matter how impossible the

430
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 5: timelines were or the stories were, to believe that this

431
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 5: truly didn't happen.

432
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 2: It was very emotional. I tried off to show emotion

433
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 2: while I was in there, and I try to mask

434
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 2: my feelings. Really seeing her pictures and the things that

435
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: Julie went through was very dramatic and distriving to me.

436
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 2: I had dreams about it for a long time. Sometimes

437
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 2: I still do.

438
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 1: But a jury convicted Hope of Julie's murder. She was

439
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 1: sentenced to thirty years in prison. Hope was in absolute shock,

440
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 1: but her first thoughts were for her family.

441
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 2: The only thing I could hear was my mom's screaming,

442
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: oh my god, my baby, and she ran out of

443
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: the courtroom crying. And yet I hear that a lot

444
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 2: still and the pain in her voice, and that I

445
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 2: kept my feeling my attorneys, please go check on my mom,

446
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 2: Please go check on my mom, my children. Everything's me.

447
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: A year and a half after Hope's trial, her conviction

448
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 1: was actually overturned due to a legal error, and she

449
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: was granted a second trial.

450
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 2: I didn't have no hope during that second trial, I

451
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 2: knew I was coming back to prison, but.

452
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: Hope was again convicted and sentenced to twenty five years

453
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: in prison. So what has it been like for you

454
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: and the family to have Hope in prison.

455
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 3: It was really really hard, honestly, And I feel like

456
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 3: I can speak for me and my nieces whenever I

457
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 3: say that they were so little whenever it happened, So

458
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 3: it was really really hard to have to explain to them,

459
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 3: you know, where their mom went and why she wasn't

460
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 3: there for Christmases or birthdays and things like that. So yeah,

461
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 3: it was pretty traumatizing and really really hard.

462
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: And Hope desperately missed her kids.

463
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: They never spent a night without me but maybe go

464
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 2: see my mom for a weekend or something. Other than that,

465
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: they was never out of my sight and being without them,

466
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 2: Like I said before, I've struggled with oppression my whole life,

467
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 2: and I really struggled. I'm hurting myself for years because

468
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 2: I didn't have them in my life anymore and because

469
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: of what had happened to me. And I'm just grateful

470
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 2: that I was strong enough to be able to know

471
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 2: realize that they needed me more, whether it was inside

472
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 2: of these walls than not at all.

473
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: So as soon as she could, Hope reached out to

474
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: the Kentucky Innocence Project and in twenty fourteen they took

475
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: on her case that.

476
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 5: Had every marker that you know of a wrongful conviction

477
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 5: case that we know about. From day one of trial,

478
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 5: of attend day trial, it was obvious that nothing in

479
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 5: the case matched a timeline that could exist. There were

480
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 5: testimony that was conflicting, you know, all over the place,

481
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 5: and all of the physical evidence that was supposed to

482
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 5: be presented against Hope.

483
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 4: From the beginning of the trial never came to fruition.

484
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: Not only that, rumors were floating around town about the

485
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: police officers who were involved in the case and whether

486
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: they could be trusted. Do you think there was police

487
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: corruption in your case?

488
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: Absolutely, there was a loss of police corruption in my case.

489
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: It was really weird from Derek Wester signding Julie in

490
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 2: the ways that he found Julie and how he was

491
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 2: even out of his jurisdiction. Could be in that area

492
00:30:58,480 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 2: to begin.

493
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: With, because Hope says Julie had also told her something

494
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: about Derek Lester.

495
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: Eric would I ask for sexual fighters to keep her

496
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: from getting a driven on no license.

497
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: What's more, Miranda says that other aspects of the story

498
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: the states strung together didn't make sense.

499
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 5: It's physically impossible to drive to the places that they

500
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 5: would have driven to in the timeframe that they had.

501
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 5: Our theory was always that this happened in her vehicle

502
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 5: because of the amount of blood, but that was never

503
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 5: really presented at trial. Someone stood over her and stabbed her.

504
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: And this person could also have been the one whose

505
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: hairs were found at the scene.

506
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 5: There's a very good chance that hair belongs to the

507
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 5: person who committed this crime, or could have been on her,

508
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 5: you know, from during the day and would tell us

509
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 5: more about who she was with and where she was.

510
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 4: So that hair seems incredibly important.

511
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: And as it turns out, Hope's trial defense team did

512
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: not even know the hairs existed and they were never tested.

513
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: So Miranda and the Kentucky Innocence Project have been focused

514
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: on getting those hairs tested and acquiring other evidence that

515
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: was either tested years ago with limited technology or never

516
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: tested at all. After the requests for DNA testing were

517
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: denied a few times, there was a glimmer of Hope.

518
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 5: So we were recently actually granted an oral argument to

519
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 5: talk about the testing statute as it applas to Hope,

520
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 5: and hopefully as it applies to many more of our

521
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 5: clients that could benefit from this more liberal review of

522
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 5: cases that should be eligible for post conviction testing.

523
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: In the meantime, Hope focuses on moving forward.

524
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 2: Since I've been incars Rad, I have gotten my GV

525
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 2: and I would like to finish college right now. I

526
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: have a job. I'm doing LANDA. If I'm not at work,

527
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 2: I'm either on the file with the family members or

528
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: my children.

529
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: Shonda and Desiree are now adults. Hope watch them grow

530
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: up from behind bars.

531
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: I talked to them all of now. We have a

532
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 2: very good relationship since I've been in here. Shonda has

533
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 2: three daughters of her own.

534
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: Now, and Brittany believes that her sister will be proven innocent.

535
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: Do you talk about her getting out? Do you talk

536
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: about the future all the time.

537
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 3: I think that helps her a lot, because that gives

538
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 3: her something to look forward to. It's cheesy, but I

539
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 3: joke with her all the time that her name is

540
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 3: her name for a reason. Of course, my mom didn't

541
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 3: know that when she named her, But that's something that

542
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 3: we use now a lot to try to encourage her

543
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,239
Speaker 3: and just tell her, you know, you have to keep

544
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 3: having Hope.

545
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 2: I really want to do something to help other people.

546
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 2: I really dream is to become an attorney and or

547
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: someone like the Innocent Project and be able to help

548
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 2: people that have wrongfully convicted. That's my dream.

549
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: If you want to help Hope and the Kentucky Innocence Project,

550
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 1: go to the link in our bio. Next time Unwrongful

551
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 1: Conviction with Maggie Freeling Brendan Woodruff.

552
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: They felt like he was a lot more sinister when

553
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 2: really it was just me being myself.

554
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 3: But your clothing doesn't make you a killer.

555
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 2: And you liking guys and girls or just guys or

556
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 2: just girls, they doesn't make you a killer either.

557
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. Please

558
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 1: support your local innocence organizations and go to the links

559
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: in our bio to see how you can help. I'd

560
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm and Kevin Wurtis,

561
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: as well as our senior producer Annie Chelsea, producer Lyla Robinson,

562
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: and story editor Sonia Paul. The show is edited and

563
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,720
Speaker 1: mixed by Annie Chelsea with additional production by Jeff Cliburn

564
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: and Connor Hall. The music in this production is by

565
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to

566
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at

567
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as

568
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: well as at Lava for Good. On all three platforms,

569
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: you can also follow me on both Instagram and Twitter

570
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a

571
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal

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00:35:52,200 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 1: Company Number one mo