1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart three D 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: audio for full exposure. Listen with headphones. You want miss 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: changed for me two twenties. Check the other tires for it. 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: They look okay. Anything wrong? Oh no, nothing's wrong. I 5 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: was just looking at that hitch shaiker. What hitchhiker. He's 6 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: gone now. I guess he got picked up. Probably, It's 7 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: funny though I saw him a little while ago while 8 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: you were changing the tire. Hey, you probably got a 9 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: left right after we passed him. Probably In the days 10 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: following December, Lieutenant Colonel Chuck Halt, the deputy base commander, 11 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: was asked to write a memo describing the events of 12 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: the three night encounter to give to the Royal Air 13 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: Force representative at R A. F. Bent Waters. The memo 14 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: was sent up to the Ministry of Defense, but Halt 15 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: never heard anything back. I was relieved to be very 16 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: honest with you, and that was I thought at the 17 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: end of it until two or three years later, whenever 18 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: the memo got released. And then it hit the fan. 19 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: I'm Toby Ball and this is Strange Arrivals Episode three, 20 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: The Lighthouse. It hit the fan on October two in 21 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: the English newspaper called The News of the World under 22 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: the headline UFO lands in Suffolk and that's official, the 23 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: article began, a UFO has landed in Britain and that 24 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: staggering fact has been officially confirmed. Despite a massive cover up. 25 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: News of the World investigators have proof that the mysterious 26 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: craft came to Earth in a red ball of light 27 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: at three am on December. You might have noticed that 28 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: they have the date of the first night wrong. Not 29 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: and we'll get to that later. In addition to the article, 30 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: the paper ran the text of Chuck Halts memo. The 31 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: Rundel Shim encounter was now publicly known. Even if the 32 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: News of the World's journalistic standards weren't always of the 33 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: highest quality. The News of the World Sunday tabloid a 34 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: bit like the National Inquiry when they're not quite as bad. 35 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: I'm in mid Path, I'm in English. Amateur astronomers, science 36 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: writer and UFO skeptic. Redpath read the article and became 37 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: perhaps the leading investigator into the encounter. Now, as an 38 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: amateur astronomer, I always like to try and explain things 39 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: with some celestial event. Because the investigations show that the 40 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: great majority of UFO cases are actually caused by natural 41 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: and man made objects, and the biggest culprits are usually 42 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: bright stars and planets, satellites, meteors, sometimes aircraft as well. 43 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: But I couldn't find anything to explain what this flashing 44 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: light might be that the airmen had seen among the 45 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: trees out in Randols from forest. Unable to find an explanation, 46 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: he decided to go to a local source. The area 47 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: is a forest. It's a cultivated forest run by the 48 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: British Forestry Commission. So I rang their office and I 49 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: spoke to the forester, who at that time lived in 50 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: a cottage not very far away from where the m 51 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: and had gone out to investigate. And he said to me, 52 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know of anyone around here thinks 53 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: anything strange happened back then. And so I said, well, 54 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: what do you think it was that must have seen something? 55 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: And he said to me, I think it was the lighthouse. 56 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: And I nearly fell off my chair, because despite all 57 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: the talk in the press and everywhere else, no one 58 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: had ever mentioned a lighthouse. This was the Orfordness Lighthouse 59 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: on the North Sea coast, about five miles from the base. 60 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: It was built in the last of a series of 61 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: beacons dating back to sixteen thirty seven. It's not there anymore. 62 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: It was torn down in the summer of so I 63 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: thought I have to go out and see this for myself. 64 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: At the time, Ridpath was doing some work for BBC Television. 65 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: He asked them if he could go investigate. So I 66 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: went out there with a film crew. We filmed the 67 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: light flashing between the trees and we interviewed the forester, 68 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: who was man called Vince the Kettle, and I came 69 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:28,799 Speaker 1: back pretty much convinced that this explained at least part 70 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: of the sighting, which was the flashing light seen between 71 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: the trees on both nights of the event. So this 72 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: was the first indication that maybe there was another explanation 73 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: for what had happened over those three nights in But 74 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: of course there was more to the encounter than the 75 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: flashing light. So Ridpath began to look at more of 76 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: the details of the encounters reported by Jim Peniston and 77 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: John Burrows on the first night and our Halt and 78 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: the others on the third night. He wondered what could 79 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: John Burrows as supervisor Bud Stephens, have seen on the 80 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: first night to make him think that something had landed 81 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: in the forest. John Burrows from episode one, we were 82 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: driving down towards the skate when he saw something strange 83 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: in the sky that he said whened for the forest 84 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: later was quoted as saying it landed. I contacted a 85 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: friend of mine in the British Astronomical Association and he said, 86 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: oh yes. At about three am on that same morning, 87 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: a bright fireball had been seen over southern England. Now 88 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: this was a natural's piece of space debris burning up 89 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 1: high in the atmosphere, and we know from plenty of 90 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: past cases that bright fire balls give the impression of 91 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: something coming to Earth much closer than they really are. 92 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: The firebar was miles up in the sky, probably out 93 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: over the North Sea, but to Stephens it would have 94 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: looked much closer, and when it disappeared in the sky 95 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: behind the trees, it probably looked as though it disappeared 96 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: into the trees. Remember the confusion caused by Stephen's claims 97 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: that the object had landed in the forest and Peniston's 98 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: confusion because the forest was too dense for anything to 99 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: land this fireball explains that as well, there was no 100 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: indication of a crash because the fireball was never anywhere 101 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: near the forest. It was an optical illusion. So they 102 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: went out looking for something because they thought that something 103 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: had crashed in the forest. They saw something they didn't recognize. 104 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: He's talking about the light from Orfordness Lighthouse. It was 105 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: one of the brightest lighthouses in the country out on 106 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: the coast, and from that part of the forest where 107 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: they saw the flashing light, the line of the lighthouse 108 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: could be seen. I know because I went there. How 109 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: nice to weep myself. But bros and Peniston saw another 110 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: light as well, one that could not have been the lighthouse. 111 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: I'm James mcgahey. I am trained as an astronomer, retired 112 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: United States Air Force pilot, was also in the army 113 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: during Vietnam. I've flown around the world. I have studied 114 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: UFOs for over forty years and debunked the number of 115 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: UFO cases and appeared on television. The one thing that 116 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: did come up originally when they were out there the 117 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: first night at the end of this time period, when 118 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: they were out there, they saw a white and blue 119 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: bank of lights through the forest trees from John Brows 120 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: has written statement following the encounter, read by an actor 121 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: we had just passed a creek and we're told to 122 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: come back when we saw a blue light to our 123 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: left in the trees. It was only there for a 124 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: minute and just streaked away. At four eleven in the morning, 125 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: there was a police car out there. British police cars 126 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: are not like US police cars. They have a bank 127 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: of flashing white and blue lights on the top which 128 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: were flashing through the forest as they were driving around 129 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: these forest roads out there. When Burrows and Dennison were 130 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: out there looking around at lights, and then all of 131 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: a sudden they see this bank of white and blue 132 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: lights flashing, which was nothing more than that police car 133 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,239 Speaker 1: in the forest. So for the first night, by this accounting, 134 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: you have three different elements, the fireball in the sky, 135 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: the Orfordness lighthouse and finally the police cars. The first 136 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 1: night also left physical evidence. Remember Umber Jim Peniston returned 137 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: to the scene just hours after the encounter and made 138 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: plaster casts of imprints in the ground. On the third night, 139 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: Chuck Halt and his group went to the scene with 140 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: a radiation detector and picked up some radiation. First the 141 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: marks in the ground. Now, my friend the forest who 142 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: I spoke to Vince the Kettle said, well, yeah, he'd 143 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: seen these marks as well. They looked to him like 144 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: rabbit diggings. They weren't very deep, they weren't even in 145 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: an evenly space triangle, and they were covered with pine needles, 146 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: so they were clearly quite old. There was nothing new 147 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: or unusual about it. It's soft, sandy soil, so it's 148 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: quite easy for rabbits to dig in, so he didn't 149 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: see anything unusual about that either. At the time, the 150 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: local police concurred that the markings on the ground had 151 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: been made by forest animals, but Halt didn't know this. 152 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,079 Speaker 1: On the night of when he led a party into 153 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: the forest. Now Colonel Holt was taken up and showing 154 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: these knocks. He took a guangacounter and a guyac counter 155 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 1: operated with him. I just trying to meter. Don't say 156 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 1: that he can about under ten degrees. The readable about 157 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 1: cold clicks, it's a normal background radiation that they were 158 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: picking up. It's quite clear from Colonel holtz tape. People 159 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: were trying and tell you that they were elevated readings. 160 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: They weren't. Nick Pope, among others, disputes that these readings 161 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: were insignificant. On June the physicist Frank Close, who was 162 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: now an emeritus professor of physics at Oxford University, appeared 163 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: on a show called Strange but True Live broadcast by 164 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: the British TV network i t V three. On it, 165 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: he addressed claims about the radiation levels detected by Halt 166 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: and Nevill's. In this clip, he has a Geiger counter 167 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: similar to the one used on the third night of 168 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 1: the Ryndshum Forest encounter. This is the British equivalent of 169 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: the standard US Air Force issue, which is used usually 170 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: for measuring huge amounts of radiations like in nuclear blasts 171 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: and so forth. All you need to notice is is 172 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: a dial on the front here, and it looks very 173 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: much like the speedo in your car. Now, the speed 174 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: in your car is great for measuring whether you're exceeding 175 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: the speed limits or not. But you know what it's like, 176 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: You're stuck in the traffic jam doing nothing, but it's 177 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: still flickering at the bottom. We know from the report 178 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: that Colonel Holt made at the time that the amount 179 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: of radiation they thought they were detecting on their machine 180 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: was very very small, not point one. And we've checked 181 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: with the makers of the U S equivalent, and they said. 182 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: Their quote is that this measurement was the bottom reading 183 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: of the machine and was of little or no significance 184 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: at all. So it was not possible with the device 185 00:12:54,760 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: to measure that small amount. So the radiation readings are explainable. 186 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: Halt also brought the star scope, which was essentially a 187 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: set of night vision goggles. He clearly didn't understand the equipment. 188 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: He didn't understand what he did. He was pointing an 189 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: image intensifier at a tree and said the tree was 190 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: glowing when he had a flashlight on it. An image 191 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: intensifier just intensifies the light, doesn't measure anything. It's quite 192 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:30,599 Speaker 1: clear that he pointed the image intensifier at the lighthouse 193 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: scope that was burned dry. And of course image intensifiers 194 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: amplify the light twenty thirty thousand times, and a beam 195 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: every five seconds coming through the image intensifier effectively burned 196 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: the image out totally. It had been so bright. Halt 197 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: looked through the star scope at a light source. But 198 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: what evidence is there that it was in fact coming 199 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: from the lighthouse. Well orfard this lighthouse had a rotating 200 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: light that did a full rotation every five seconds. Now 201 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: the men then drew Colonel Holt's attention to the flashing light, 202 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: same thing that had been seen on the first night, 203 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: and you can hear the men say, look, there it 204 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: is straight ahead off my flash light. There it is again, 205 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: and there is a five second gap between the there 206 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: it is and there it is again, so we know 207 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: that the light was flashing at five second indivals. On 208 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: an episode of his Skeptoid podcast on the Rundel Shim encounter, 209 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: Brian Dunning sink a portion of the Halt tape with 210 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: a five second tone to show how the appearance of 211 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: the light coincided with the lighthouses rotation interval. We are 212 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: using this tape with his permission. Where right at this 213 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: position here straight ahead and between the sitter it again 214 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: in this case the flashing lights. Well, they never got 215 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: much closer to it. Colonel Halt said, well, it looks 216 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: like it's clear off to the coast. So we have 217 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: a flashing light which is in the direction of the 218 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: orford Ness lighthouse, because we know from where he was 219 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: standing the direction he was looking. So although he didn't 220 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: realize what it was at the time, from Colonel Halt's 221 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: own words, it seems very clear that he was looking 222 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: at orford Ness Lighthouse, as were the m n on 223 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: the first night. But this was not the only strange 224 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: light that Hal and his group saw. On the third night, 225 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: they also saw colored lights down near the horizon. This 226 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: is from the hot tape three or fire that about 227 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: ten degrees horizon dirtly north through that two strange objects 228 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: shape colored lights on them that just to be about 229 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: maybe less in the full circle. There was an Olympic 230 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: eclipse or something there for a negative. Now, what's bright 231 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: star like and flashes colors in the sky? Well? Stars. 232 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: Colonel Hawk was out there until it started getting bright 233 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: in the morning, the dawns started coming up, and they 234 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: were still there, he said. Actually one of them appeared 235 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: to be low over the Woodbridge base, which was towards 236 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: the southwest of him, which was exactly where serious the 237 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: brightest star in the sky is to be found was 238 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: to be found at that time. And when a star 239 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: like Sirius is low down, the air currents in the 240 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: atmosphere make it twinkle. So yes, you will see serious 241 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: flashing red. You'll see it flashing green, You'll see it 242 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: flashing white, simply because it's light is being broken up 243 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 1: by convection currents in the atmosphere. So just like the 244 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: first night, the encounter on the third night in this 245 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: explanation comprises three elements. The lighthouse not understanding how the 246 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: specialized equipment they were using worked, and then the misidentification 247 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: of the stars. The only thing that's unusual where you 248 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: don't often get lighthouses involved in in the UFO cases, 249 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: the first one I've ever come across. Then, as they 250 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: moved between the trees, it looked as though the bright 251 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: light was moving away, zigzagging between the trees in front 252 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 1: of them, And it's exactly the same kind of effect 253 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: that you get when it seems as though you're being 254 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: chased by the moon when you're driving in in your car. 255 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: So it wasn't really the light that was moving, it 256 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: was them that will move in which gave the impression 257 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: of the lights receding and zigzagging between the trees. This, then, 258 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: is the skeptical explanation for what happened in rundel Shom Forest. 259 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: It seems to offer an explanation for all of the 260 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: elements over the course of those nights, but it's not 261 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: actually proof of anything. It's an alternative explanation that doesn't 262 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: rely on the paranormal. Of course, not everyone accepts the 263 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: skeptical explanation that we've just heard. I've heard every explanation 264 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: for the Randal Show inside in and Look, I'm not 265 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: here to prove to anyone that aliens landed in the 266 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: forest and Randell Show post of the Somewhere in the 267 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: Skies podcast Ryan Sprague. I'm here to try to find 268 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: the truth, and I'm open to any possibility of what 269 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: Randal Show was. But I'm not willing to accept is 270 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: that it was a lighthouse. Was there another way to 271 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: possibly verify what had happened one way or the other? Well, 272 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: this incident involved the military, and where the military is involved, 273 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: there's paperwork after the break. Strange arrivals will return in 274 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: a moment. The r a F. Bent Waters and r 275 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: a F. Woodbridge based complex house nuclear weapons. In a 276 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: case where an unknown craft or crafts encroached on that complex, 277 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: you would expect to find a mountain of paperwork. Maybe 278 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: that paperwork was classified or remains classified, but you would 279 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: expect that it would exist. The written statements by Peniston, 280 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: Burrows and others were not in fact official documents. They 281 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: did not find their way into the Air Force official 282 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: accounting of this event. The only official document that was 283 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,360 Speaker 1: produced from this encounter, which Chuck Halts Memo, and that 284 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: wasn't for the U s Air Force, It was written 285 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: for the British Ministry of Defense. In two thousand, Prime 286 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: Minister Tony Blair signed the Freedom of Information Act, which 287 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 1: provided a means for journalists in the public to request 288 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: official government information. Sheffield Hallam University Associate Professor David Clark. 289 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: At the time, I was working as a news reporter 290 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: for one of the big regional newspapers in the UK 291 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 1: and the Freedom of Information was coming in and my 292 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: editor was saying everyone, all you journalists, you need to 293 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: sort of use this is where it's going to be 294 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: in the future. It's a great tool for journalists forcing 295 00:20:54,720 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: the government to release the not released. Before Clark realized 296 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 1: is that he needed to find his own niche a 297 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: subject that he could focus his attention on now that 298 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: this new information had been made available. So I just thought, well, 299 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: what about UFOs. You know, I know that there's this 300 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,439 Speaker 1: unit at the Ministry of Defense that's existence since the 301 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties. I know they've got lots of files on 302 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: this thing that in the past they've always stone wall. 303 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: So I just thought, well, I'm going to use this legislation, 304 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: and the very first thing I went for was the 305 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: file on the Randelstrom Forest incident, because up until that 306 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: point they just said the only thing that they got 307 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: on file was Colonel Holt's memo one page of A 308 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: four and I just thought that cannot be true. Clark 309 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: put in his request soon after this new policy was implemented, 310 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: and I really didn't think it would get anywhere. Low 311 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: and Behold, within a few months they said, oh, yes, 312 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: we've located a hundred and fifty five page file, and 313 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: we've also gone back and searched to all the other 314 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: files covering the period of the sighting, and we've found 315 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of other documents as well, so we've 316 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: copied those for you. We've added those to the file. Here. 317 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: It is big, thick, brown envelope, just dropped through my 318 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: letter box one morning and I just thought, Wow, I've 319 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: hit jack pot here. But despite the size of the file, 320 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: the contents were disappointing. The file itself was something that 321 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: was assembled later when the story going into the news 322 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: of the world and It largely consists of Holtz memo, 323 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: a few other bits and pieces, and then the rest 324 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: of it is just letters from uthologists and members of 325 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: the public who's seen the story in the newspapers and 326 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: who were writing in to the Ministry Defense saying what 327 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: do you know about this? Did the aliens really land? 328 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: And their response every time is just the standard, Well, 329 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: all we've got is Colonel Halt story. We looked into 330 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: it at the time, our air defense experts decided that 331 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: there was nothing to be worried about because they didn't 332 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: see anything on radar. So that's the end of it 333 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: as far as we're concerned. So that the entire file 334 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: just a repetition of that statement whenever they received a 335 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: letter or an inquiry from the media. In other words, 336 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: there was nothing. Later, though, Clark became the official spokesman 337 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: for the government effort to organize and release the UFO 338 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: files that it had. In this capacity, he was able 339 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: to access all of the surviving files. This let him 340 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: take another approach to Reyndlssom documentation. He asked to see 341 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 1: the general file of UFO reports for the whole year 342 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: of Clark says it was a huge file about a 343 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: foot thick. And the interesting thing from my point of 344 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: view as an arcadist historian, journalist, is the report from 345 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: Colonel Holt was just filed with all the rest of 346 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: the lights in the sky in that file. So his 347 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: original memo is in the general UFO file alongside all 348 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: the other Mr Son So coming out of a public 349 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: house in London and saw lights in the sky. The 350 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: next story is Colonel Hall. Then another story and the 351 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: guy who was the UFO desk officer at the time, 352 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: Simon Weed, and I spoke to him about this and 353 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: he remembered it clearly and he just said, well, it 354 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: was just another story. We didn't take it seriously. And 355 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: this is a critical point when looking at the Rundall 356 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: Shim encounter. As we've mentioned before, if a craft, any 357 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: craft had appeared around R A F. Bent Waters and R. 358 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: A F. Woodbridge basis with nuclear weapons during the Cold War, 359 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: it should have caused great concern and an intense official reaction, 360 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,479 Speaker 1: but it didn't. Chuck Halt talks about how we never 361 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: heard back from the U. S. Air Force or the 362 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: English Ministry of Defense about his encounter. Why why didn't 363 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: the Ministry Defense take this seriously? And There is a 364 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: two page briefing in the files about this, and basically 365 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: what they said was, we didn't take it seriously because 366 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: Colonel Halt and take it seriously. We looked at his memo. 367 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: Why did he wait two weeks to report it to 368 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: us in the first place, and why did you get 369 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: all the dates wrong? If he thought when this was 370 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 1: happening that the base a nuclear arm base, was under attack, 371 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: you wouldn't wait until the British based commander came back 372 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: from his Christmas holidays two weeks later. I mean none 373 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: of what I've said here. It says that something didn't happen. 374 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: Clearly something did happen, but the time to actually do 375 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: a thorough investigation of it has passed. You can't investigate 376 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: something that happened forty years ago when all the records 377 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 1: have been destroyed, and when such elementary mistakes were made 378 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: at the time. He's talking about radar records that were destroyed, 379 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: leaving that question forever unresolved. We've heard the accounts of 380 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 1: the encounters at Ryndoldshop Forest, and in the next episode 381 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: we'll hear more from the witnesses. We've also heard the 382 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: skeptical explanation for what happened. It's safe to say that 383 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: neither the original nor the skeptical account have become universally accepted. 384 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: The public understanding of what happened is still up for grabs. 385 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: So you've got this inconclusive situation where people come in 386 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:22,719 Speaker 1: with other types of explanations when something seems just completely incomprehensible. 387 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: And so I think that when you don't have a 388 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: cultural narrative to explain what happens, then you will often 389 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: have different types of explanations coming forward. My name is 390 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,959 Speaker 1: Deborah Lotonzi Shutka. I am a folklorist and professor at 391 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: George Mason University in Fifex, Virginia. I have been teaching 392 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: folklore for over twenty years and my area of specialty 393 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 1: is narrative analysis. Those types of stories are obviously really 394 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: great interest to folklore's because it tells us basically how 395 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: a community or a person is thinking about a set 396 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: of circumstances. So this is an important point for the 397 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: rest of the season. In a situation such as Rendall shown, 398 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: where there are two or more narratives about what happened, 399 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: why does one narrative eventually become accepted and what does 400 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: that tell you about the culture at the time. These 401 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,479 Speaker 1: are the kinds of questions that folklor's are interested in. 402 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 1: Whether the story is literally true or not is beside 403 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: the point again, David Clark, when it comes to people's stories, 404 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: I just prefer to just treat those stories as stories 405 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: and respect them as stories. And to me, it doesn't 406 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: particularly matter whether they are made up or genuinely believed 407 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: or a real experience, that they are all expressions. I mean, 408 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: the case is almost like re enchantment of the world 409 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 1: in that. Yeah, you kind of explain it all as 410 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: Ian tries to do in down to earth terms. He's 411 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: talking about Ian Redpath. Yeah, that might be the case. 412 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: I can accept that, but it doesn't explain the psychology 413 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: of it. It doesn't explain why people were thinking about UFOs. 414 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 1: I mean, it's more like a folk story and the 415 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: fact it took place in a forest as well. Forests 416 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: are enchanted places in folklore. You know, there's loads and 417 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: loads of stories in British food wall about people going 418 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: into forests, getting lost, being led astray by will of 419 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: the whisps. You know, lights that are moving in the 420 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 1: distance that people go towards, and the light moves further 421 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: away and then they end up falling into a bob. 422 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: That kind of thing that those forests in Suffolk are 423 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: just read them with stories like that. Folklorets divide stories 424 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: into categories such as fairy tales, folk tales, and narratives 425 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: of personal experience. The Rundelson Forest encounter is what folkloreists 426 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: would classify as a legend. Basically, what folklore is, it's 427 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: a body of shared cultural experience that one learns from 428 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: their parents, their friends, their community. Informally, so, folklore is 429 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: the things that we learned about life that are not 430 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: often taught in schools. Among that, probably the most popular 431 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: is the legend, and the legend is a story that 432 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: generally people tell to one another as if it were true, 433 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: although the narrative itself calls into question the veracity of 434 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: what's being told. It's not uncommon for someone to hear 435 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: a legend and then go, did that really happen? So 436 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: the idea here is that legends are told or shared 437 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: to share different types of experiential or belief knowledge that 438 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: calls into question the very nature of that knowledge. Think 439 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: about ghost stories. Some ghost stories you hear are very 440 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: individu ualized I have friends, for instance, who have a 441 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: neighbor who has stories of lights being turned on at 442 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: different times of the night. This story will most likely 443 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: never travel beyond a small circle of friends and friends 444 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: of friends. But then there are also stories that come 445 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: across that are very traditional folk legends. Probably one of 446 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: my favorite is a vanishing hitchhiker, where a person sees 447 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,239 Speaker 1: a person hitchhiking. They stopped because for some reason they 448 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: feel compelled to pick up the person. There's very little 449 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: interaction between the driver and the hitchhiker, and when they 450 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: get to the destination that the hitchhikers has to be 451 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: dropped off at. Usually the hitchhiker disappears. Wherever I go, 452 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: there he is. Wherever I stop, I see him. No 453 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: matter how far I travel or how fast, like calling, 454 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: he's ahead of me. At the beginning of this episode, 455 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: we heard a clip from a Twilight Zone episode that 456 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: is a version of this tale. I believe You're going 457 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: my way. In the standard vanishing hitchhiker story, the driver 458 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: finds out that the person they picked up actually died 459 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: some time ago, often around the spot where they hitch 460 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: the ride. It's a creepy story and one that when 461 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: you hear it begs the question do you believe in 462 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: ghosts or the supernatural? One of the things that folk 463 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: culture often does, especially in the genre of legend and belief, 464 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: is that there is a developing performance of rationality. People 465 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: know that being seen as a believer can automatically cast 466 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,959 Speaker 1: out on people's stories. I'm Lynn McNeil. I am a 467 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: folklorist at Utah State University. I run the folklore program there. 468 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: I teach folklore there. I work in the folklore archives 469 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: that we have there. When someone asked you if you 470 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: believe in the supernatural or the paranormal, you probably think 471 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: of this as a yes or no question, either you 472 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: believe or you don't, And you also understand that how 473 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: you answer will affect the way the person asking will 474 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: think about you. You know that the quote unquote correct 475 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: answer is to say no, because that means you are 476 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: a rational person. That you're thinking is based in science. 477 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: For most people, though, the real answer isn't necessarily yes. 478 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: The real answer is something along the lines of the story. 479 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: The real answer to do you believe in ghosts as well? No? 480 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: Of course not, I mean who would. But after my 481 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: grandpa died, there was like this one Christmas light and 482 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: it was totally the one that he was always into, 483 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: and it just started blinking like the day after he died, 484 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: and it never stopped blinking, and we all just sort 485 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: of knew like that was Grandpa, you know, letting us 486 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: know that he was still there with us for the holidays. 487 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: So no, I don't believe in ghost, but I mean, 488 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: my Grandpa's in that Christmas life. Like that very paradoxical, 489 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: very contradictory answer, and that's never on the survey. But 490 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: when people are surveyed to find out their beliefs about 491 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,719 Speaker 1: the supernatural or paranormal, the questions aren't looking for that 492 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: kind of complicated answer. They're looking for the person to 493 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: answer yes I believe or no, I don't believe. When 494 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: that's the choice, people check the no box. Thissunderstanding of 495 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: what people will think of you if you express a 496 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: belief in these things carries over to how stories involving 497 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: the supernatural or paranormal are presented. When someone wants to 498 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: speak about a supernatural experience they've had, they grow I 499 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: like the word armor over their story in anticipation of 500 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: people who are going to say, okay, weirdo you clearly 501 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: are an irrational thinker. So we see this performance of rationality, 502 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: this intentional reality testing that takes place, that becomes a 503 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: part of the story to say, now I thought it 504 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 1: could be this, but then I realized it couldn't because 505 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: of this. And I also thought that maybe it could 506 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: be this, but that doesn't make any sense because of X, 507 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: Y and Z. Think about Chuck Halt and how he 508 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: characterizes his intentions as he sets out to investigate the 509 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: return of the lights at Rundel shom Forrest. He says, 510 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: have him made me a distast preparedness off and spend 511 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: about thirty minutes, and we'll go ohead and take see 512 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: what this is all about. And I wanted the document 513 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: was nothing there. Whether you believe that Chuck Halt saw 514 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: unidentified craft in the sky or whether you believe that 515 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: he saw the Orfanist lighthouse and stars doesn't change the 516 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: basics of his experience. He went into Rundel shop forest 517 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: and saw lights. He tried to make sense of what 518 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: he was seeing and arrived at the conclusion that they 519 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: were you fos. They end up at this supernatural or 520 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: paranormal conclusion that for all that it might not be 521 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: scientifically testable the way that we think of the scientific process. 522 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: It's a rational thought process that they've gone through. And 523 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: this is something that any folklorist who has done ethnographic 524 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: work with people on the subjects of belief in the 525 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 1: supernatural sees right away is oftentimes these are incredibly thoughtful, 526 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: observant people who themselves don't want to have to have 527 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: drawn that conclusion, and yet there's no other conclusion for 528 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: them to draw. Sometimes. The other thing about legends is 529 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: in order for a legend to survive and be successful, 530 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 1: there's got to be a debate about his plausibility, about 531 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: whether it really happened or not. And that's where the 532 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: clashes between the different factions who are representing the different 533 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: characters in this play, which is why I see it, 534 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: and the clash between what they're trying to established and 535 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: the skeptics who are saying it's all nonsense. It was 536 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: a lighthouse and a meteor and all the rest of it. 537 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: It's that debate, ongoing debate that keeps it alive because 538 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: once everyone excepts, oh, yeah, it was a lighthouse, and 539 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: we can all go home now and and be happy, No, 540 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: it's no longer a legend. It's something that's been explained 541 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: and that we can put to one side and move 542 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: on to the next thing. And it's not just a 543 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: dispute between people who do and don't believe that Randolsom 544 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: Forrest was visited by unidentified crafts in as we will 545 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 1: see next episode, disagreement among the witnesses over what they 546 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: saw has grown over the years as new explanations for 547 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: what happened are put forward. So the reason it's living 548 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: on and it's mutating is because you've got this constant 549 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: sort of clash going on between the believers and the skeptics, 550 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 1: and even in the believer camp, you've got all these 551 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: different sort of groups of believers are all trying to 552 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: assert their version of it, and that's why it's so latent. 553 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: He's one of the most successful UFO legends. In fact, 554 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: I think he's almost going to supersede Roswell because the 555 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: difference with Randelshim is that all the key participants are 556 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: still alive. You can actually talk to them, whereas no 557 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: one from Roswell. I mean, I know there are sons 558 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: and daughters of people who were there, but really, what 559 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: more can you say about ROSWELLT that hasn't been said. 560 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,359 Speaker 1: There's an awful lot you can say about Rendel Ship 561 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: that hasn't been said Holt, Peniston and Burrows. I'll have 562 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: more to say things that cast a new strange light 563 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:39,959 Speaker 1: on those three nights in Rundel Shom Forest next time 564 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: on Strange Arrivals. Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heeart, 565 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: three D Audio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankey. 566 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: This episode was written and hosted by Toby Ball and 567 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: produced by Miranda Hawkins and Josh Thame, with executive producers 568 00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,760 Speaker 1: Alex Williams, Matt Frederick, and Aaron Mankey, with voice acting 569 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: by Jeff Williams and special thanks to Wendy Connors, creator 570 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 1: of the Faded Discs archive of UFO related audio on 571 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 1: archive dot org. Learn more about Strange Rivals over at 572 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 1: Grimm and Miles dot com, and find more podcasts from 573 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,439 Speaker 1: my heart Radio by visiting the I Heart Radio app, 574 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.