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Speaker 1: On May thirty first, nineteen ninety three, Dennis Horton went

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Speaker 1: to his brother Lee's home for a Memorial Day weekend cookout.

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Speaker 1: Later in the day, they visited their father in North Philadelphia,

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Speaker 1: as well as their childhood friend Robert Leif. Unbeknownst to

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Speaker 1: the Hortons, Robert Leaf had committed an armed robbery earlier

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Speaker 1: that day in which two women were injured and one

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Speaker 1: man was fatally shot. The Hortons pulled up to their

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Speaker 1: friend Robert Leaf on the street and made plans to

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Speaker 1: watch a basketball game back at Lee's. Robert asked the

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Speaker 1: brothers to meet him one block up, where he got

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Speaker 1: into their car with a gun. Police had been following

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Speaker 1: Robert and immediately pulled them over, where all three men

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Speaker 1: were arrested. The two injured women, who initially had said

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Speaker 1: that there were only two arm robbers, gave a shaky

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Speaker 1: idea of all three men, sending them to trial together.

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Speaker 1: Robert Leif's attorney used confusion amongst the witnesses over the

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Speaker 1: identities of the three men to change the narrative from

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Speaker 1: Robert Leaf as the shooter to Dennis delivering a lighter

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Speaker 1: sentence to the actual culprit while the Hortons were sentenced

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Speaker 1: to life without parole. Years later, a statement by Robert

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Speaker 1: Leaf admitting his role and excluding the Horton brothers was unearthed,

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Speaker 1: along with the fact that police had identified Robert Leaf

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Speaker 1: as the shooter from the very start. However, with this

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Speaker 1: new evidence being ruled inadmissible on purely procedural grounds, it

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Speaker 1: took the tireless advocacy of Pennsylvania Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman

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Speaker 1: to win a commutation and release for the brothers after

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Speaker 1: nearly three long decades in prison. This is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. My best advice to you

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Speaker 1: right now is fasten your seatbelt because this is going

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Speaker 1: to be a crazy ride that you're about to go on.

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Speaker 1: But before I introduced the two brothers who were wrongfully

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Speaker 1: convicted of the same crime together and ended up serving

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Speaker 1: almost twenty seven years together in the same cell for

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Speaker 1: the crime that didn't commit, I just want to say

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Speaker 1: that this is Philadelphia in the nineties. You've heard stories

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Speaker 1: on here before about Philadelphia in the nineties, and it

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Speaker 1: was the time and place where a black man had

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Speaker 1: a better chance of getting justice in Philadelphia, Mississippi than

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Speaker 1: in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and this is another example of that.

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Speaker 1: So without further ado, let me introduce to you. I'm

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Speaker 1: so excited to have these guys on the show today

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Speaker 1: because there's such inspiring people. Lee and Dennis Horton, the

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Speaker 1: brothers Horton. Welcome to Ronful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: All right, good afternoon. How's everybody doing out there. I'm

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Speaker 2: glad to be here. Thank you for inviting us on.

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Speaker 1: So let's get right into it. First of all, I

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Speaker 1: want to say to both of you guys that while

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Speaker 1: I am obviously delighted to have you on the show,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry that you're here because of what you had

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Speaker 1: to go through and it should have never happened. So

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Speaker 1: let's go back to the beginning. I'm talking about how

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Speaker 1: was childhood for you guys growing up together while you

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Speaker 1: moved to Philly in seventy seven, right, but give us

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Speaker 1: a quick look at what your childhood was like.

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Speaker 3: So when we was young, growing up, we lived uneventful

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Speaker 3: but a wonderful life. You know, my mom and my

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Speaker 3: father was married in the early sixties.

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Speaker 2: It four of us, four kids. We grew up in

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Speaker 2: some of the roughest places in the city, but our family.

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Speaker 2: My mom, my grandmother, my father always instilled in us

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Speaker 2: that you had to work for what you wanted their life,

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Speaker 2: and so we started working at an early age my

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Speaker 2: mom and father.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately they split up in nineteen seventy two. My mom,

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Speaker 3: she was trying to take care of four kids on

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Speaker 3: our own. We wind up moving to the Projects, which

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Speaker 3: was at the time East Falls Projects. I was around

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Speaker 3: twelve years old, my brother was seven at the time.

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Speaker 3: So the projects was a rough project.

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Speaker 2: You know, you had to prove the people up there

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Speaker 2: that you was willing to fight in order for you

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Speaker 2: to be able to stay, or they chased you out

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Speaker 2: the projects. That's how it was.

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Speaker 3: And so I had got into a fight with an

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Speaker 3: individual and I wanted to fight.

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Speaker 2: That was a blessing to some degree, but it was

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Speaker 2: also a curse because now I was at ies with

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Speaker 2: a lot of guys my age twelve or thirteen year

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Speaker 2: olds in the projects, and one day I wound up

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Speaker 2: on the wrong side of the projects when we was

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Speaker 2: approached by a group of individuals and it was maybe

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Speaker 2: about twenty something thirty guys, and they approached us and

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Speaker 2: they wanted me to fight a guy. And you know,

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Speaker 2: there was a bunch of guys that was about to

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Speaker 2: jump us.

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Speaker 3: And then these other guys came out of nowhere and

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Speaker 3: came to our rescue. And it was only a few

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Speaker 3: of them, but they were like the neighborhood tough guys

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Speaker 3: to some degree. One of these guys who would become

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Speaker 3: a really good friend of mine was an individual named

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Speaker 3: Rob Relief. And so I fell in with these guys

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Speaker 3: and we became really good friends. He came to my house,

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Speaker 3: stayed at my house, slept in my house, ate at

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Speaker 3: my house. My mom to somebody, we became his mom.

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Speaker 3: And then in nineteen eight three, we moved out of

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Speaker 3: the projects.

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Speaker 2: By that time we kind of veered off a little bit,

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Speaker 2: although I would go see my friends who were still

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Speaker 2: living in the projects and some living in North Philadelphia

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Speaker 2: from town to town.

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Speaker 1: And so now we move up towards the time of

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Speaker 1: the actual crime, and I'm talking about Memorial Day weekend,

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Speaker 1: May thirty first, nineteen ninety three. So there was an

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Speaker 1: arm robbery at Toledo's Bar. Now, initial descriptions say it

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Speaker 1: was two men, but later it was changed to three,

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Speaker 1: one man with a twenty two caliber semi automatic rifle

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Speaker 1: and another with a black pistol robbed the bar and

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Speaker 1: its patrons. Samuel Alimo, six foot three and over two

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Speaker 1: hundred pounds, wrestled with the gunman for the gun, but

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Speaker 1: was overpowered and was shot and killed. Lous Archella and

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Speaker 1: Louis Martinez were injured, but both were covered, and a

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Speaker 1: witness described chasing after the fleeing assailants who saw them

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Speaker 1: in a small blue car and supplied police with a

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Speaker 1: partial license plate number. And again, remember this is Philadelphia

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Speaker 1: in the nineties. So we'll get to the myriad problems

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Speaker 1: with the state story, but first let's hear your story.

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Speaker 1: So it's Memorial Day, weekend, May thirty first, nineteen ninety three. Lee,

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Speaker 1: you had four kids, right, including a two week old baby,

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Speaker 1: and at the time, Dennis, you were just recently engaged

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Speaker 1: to be married, and had also recently been badly injured

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Speaker 1: at work and we're recovering, right, So you were in

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Speaker 1: absolutely no condition to be engaging in hand to hand combat,

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Speaker 1: wrestling right with a very large man, right strong man.

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Speaker 1: So can you take us through that day, the day

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Speaker 1: that this armed robbery and murder, this whole tragedy happened.

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Speaker 2: So Lee and his wife invited me and my fiancee

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Speaker 2: at the time over to his house. So of course

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Speaker 2: I went to Lee's house, had a cookout out with

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Speaker 2: him and his wife and his kids, and later on

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Speaker 2: that evening, we decided we was going to take a ride.

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Speaker 2: You know, we've been in the house all day. Stopped

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Speaker 2: by my father's house see him, and then Lee was

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Speaker 2: going to stop by just see a few guys that

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Speaker 2: he knew, and we headed for North Philadelphia, where my

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Speaker 2: father lived at the time, and we swung by his house,

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Speaker 2: but his light was out so he was sleep So

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Speaker 2: Lee said, okay, let's stop around Leaf's house. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: we drove around Leaf's house. He was standing out on

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Speaker 2: the corner with some other guys and Lee beat the

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Speaker 2: horn and Leif came over to the car, letting him

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Speaker 2: and Lee talk for a little bit. So rober Leif

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Speaker 2: was supposed to come back to Lee's house. We was

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Speaker 2: going to watch the basketball game. So Leif said, pull

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Speaker 2: up a block and I'll be there. And I got

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Speaker 2: to just take care of something real quick, and we

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Speaker 2: pulled up to the block and Leif came maybe about

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Speaker 2: ten to fifteen minutes later, got in the car and

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Speaker 2: then we pulled off, and about a couple of blocks later,

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Speaker 2: we saw sirens and we pulled over and the police

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Speaker 2: jumped out of their vans and cars were gunn drawn

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Speaker 2: and told us to get out of the car. And

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Speaker 2: we got out of the car and they handcuffed us

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Speaker 2: and they put us into the paddy wagon and they

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Speaker 2: took us to the hospital when identification take place, and

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Speaker 2: all I remember is that the van doors opened up,

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Speaker 2: and next thing you know, I've seen it. I think

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Speaker 2: two ladies point to rob Belief and say, yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: the guy right there. And then they said, well, what

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Speaker 2: about these other guys and they said, yeah, them too.

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Speaker 2: They were with them too, And then they shut the

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Speaker 2: doors back and then that was it. And next thing

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Speaker 2: you know, we were down the roundhouse where they charge

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Speaker 2: you for a homicide.

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Speaker 1: So, okay, right away we see problems emerge with what

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Speaker 1: the witnesses are describing. Right the alleged number of individuals

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Speaker 1: involved in the robbery went from went up fifty percent,

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Speaker 1: right from two to three. And when you're there at

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Speaker 1: the hospital in the police paddy wagon right outside the

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Speaker 1: hospital with the witnesses saying yeah them too. Also one

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Speaker 1: of the witnesses described a blue car and gave a

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Speaker 1: partial plate number. So did that match your own vehicles?

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Speaker 2: The only witness who claimed to see the car said

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Speaker 2: it was a blue small car. It was as supposed

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Speaker 2: to been a Chevy Chavette. He said the name of

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Speaker 2: the car in his statement. Now Lee's car is a

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Speaker 2: Priest Classic, a four door large car, two tones, two

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Speaker 2: different colors.

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Speaker 3: But this witness, for some reason, we could never find

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Speaker 3: him and never bring him the trial. The person the

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Speaker 3: police put down giving out this partial plate number. When

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Speaker 3: we got the witness on the stand, she said, right

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Speaker 3: then there, I.

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Speaker 2: Never gave a police anything.

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Speaker 3: I never saw a car, so how could I have

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Speaker 3: ever given him the name is on this paper. Though

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Speaker 3: they said you gave it to him, She said, it's impossible.

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Speaker 3: I didn't see a car. I didn't give him anything.

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Speaker 3: And the thing about the officers who did this first thing,

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Speaker 3: you got to give you a context to.

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Speaker 2: Who these officers are. The first officer was somebody who

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Speaker 2: had strangled a guy to the early on, and then later,

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Speaker 2: right after we was arrested, he shot a guy unarmed

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Speaker 2: in a car. The second officer, she was involved in

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Speaker 2: internal fears of investigation about a large quantity of drugs

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Speaker 2: being found in the police station and them suspecting it

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Speaker 2: or connect it to her. As you start appeeling the

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Speaker 2: layers away, you start seeing that it's more to this

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Speaker 2: than just the police picking up some guys and they

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Speaker 2: were involved.

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Speaker 1: So I have to ask, do you think that they

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Speaker 1: knew from the beginning that you guys had nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with this.

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Speaker 2: That's a really good question, and our heart of hearts,

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Speaker 2: we believe in the beginning maybe they wasn't sure, but

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Speaker 2: as things begin to unfold, they had to be clear

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Speaker 2: that we wasn't involved, just didn't care. And the reason

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Speaker 2: why we know is because the prosecuted came to us

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Speaker 2: with the deal. It was like five to ten years,

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Speaker 2: and we were like, we're innocent, We're not taking any deal.

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Speaker 2: Why should we take any deal to go to jail

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Speaker 2: when we didn't do anything? And now it was sort

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Speaker 2: of like, okay, you won't take the deal, all right, Well,

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Speaker 2: the chip's gonna forward.

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Speaker 1: They made, right, And it's very uncommon that in the

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Speaker 1: crime as serious as this one armed robbery where someone

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Speaker 1: was killed, right, that they're going to offer someone two

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Speaker 1: guys in this case five years, right, you know, you

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Speaker 1: don't have to be a legal scholar to figure this

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Speaker 1: one out. So now we get to the trial and

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Speaker 1: all three of you, Lee, Dennis, and Robert Leaf are

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Speaker 1: tried together, and they have three witnesses. Now I'm going

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Speaker 1: to put witnesses in quotation marks here. Three of them

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Speaker 1: came to trial, and they eventually identified Dennis as the shooter.

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Speaker 1: But did they have any physical evidence at all, any fingerprints,

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Speaker 1: any security footage.

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Speaker 2: There were no security footage.

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Speaker 3: What they had was they actually had the gun they

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Speaker 3: said with the murdered weapon. They never actually could trace

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Speaker 3: it to any of the bullets they got out of

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Speaker 3: the body.

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Speaker 2: They didn't match. But this is the gun that Leif

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Speaker 2: had on him. He left the gun in the car.

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Speaker 2: The cops retrieved it and when they checked it, it had fingerprints.

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Speaker 2: But we've been always trying to get these fingerprints checked

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Speaker 2: because they could never trace them to any of us.

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Speaker 2: If they took all of our fingerprints, they didn't fit

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Speaker 2: any of us.

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Speaker 3: Now, the way that my brother got to become the

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Speaker 3: shooter is a clear case of mistaken identification. Initially in

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Speaker 3: the case, they all identified Robert Leaf at the shooter,

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Speaker 3: and this where the whole case turns. If this don't

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Speaker 3: ever happen, we probably would have walked. The one witness

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Speaker 3: would identify different person every hearing. When she identified Robert Leave,

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Speaker 3: Robert Leaf's attorney, he would read the know some testimony

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Speaker 3: of her identifying my brother, until it got to the

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Speaker 3: point where when the judge asked her, well, who are

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Speaker 3: you saying did this? She said, I'm going to say

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Speaker 3: it's the one right there, and she was identifying me,

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Speaker 3: and we had already told the court that they was

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Speaker 3: identified as base where we were sitting at, so we

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Speaker 3: switched seats. So when we switched seats, she was identified

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Speaker 3: based on who the witness before her told her to identify,

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Speaker 3: and then she thought that the person was sitting in

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Speaker 3: that seat, but it wound up being me Lee Horton.

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Speaker 3: When she heard my name, she said, hold it, what's

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Speaker 3: the name? And they JEG said why do you.

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Speaker 2: Want to know the name? Because, uh, Dennis did it.

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Speaker 2: It's Dennis. He said Dennis, and then she said, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I heard him. They was calling Dennis. And then after

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Speaker 2: that we were in the case and they knew that

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Speaker 2: this woman just had made this up out of the sky,

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Speaker 2: just right then and there, everybody refused to pull back,

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Speaker 2: and they could have corrected that right there, and they

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Speaker 2: had said, well, hold up, Yonner, she's wrong. Mister Leaf

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Speaker 2: was wearing a red jacket. We know that for sure.

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Speaker 2: That's a fact. They identified him as a shooter. That's

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Speaker 2: a fact. They didn't say any of that.

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Speaker 3: They just let the witnesses go on and on and

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Speaker 3: on with these wrong identifications. And this woman had identified

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Speaker 3: every last one of us as a shooter at one

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Speaker 3: given time.

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Speaker 4: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company,

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Speaker 4: and by Accenture, a global professional services company with leading

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Speaker 4: capabilities in digital, cloud and security. Working to reform the

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Speaker 4: criminal justice system is a key pillar of the AIG

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Speaker 4: pro Bono Program, which provides free legal services and other

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Speaker 4: support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need

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Speaker 4: as part of censures commitment to racial and civil justice.

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Speaker 4: Accenture's Legal Access Program provides pro bono legal services in

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Speaker 4: partnership with more than forty organizations bringing meaningful change to

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Speaker 4: people and communities worldwide.

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Speaker 2: Three weeks prior to our arrest, I had injured my

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Speaker 2: leg on my job in such a fashion that I

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Speaker 2: needed to acl repair. The holiday was on a Monday,

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Speaker 2: I was supposed to go talk about the day that

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Speaker 2: week I was going to have the surgery done. I

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Speaker 2: just came off the crutches, so when we were arrested,

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Speaker 2: it was impossible for me to be able to wrestle

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Speaker 2: with this guy. I think they said he was like

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Speaker 2: sixty four sixty three something like that. I was supposed

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Speaker 2: to have overpowered him, wrestled all the way to the

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Speaker 2: ground with this guy, overpowered the gun out of his hand,

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Speaker 2: and then after I was supposed to have shot him,

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Speaker 2: I was supposed to have ran away as fast as

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Speaker 2: I could. There was no way I could run on

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Speaker 2: that leg at all. And my medical records and all

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Speaker 2: that would have shown that would have proved that, and

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Speaker 2: this would have disqualified me from even remotely possibly being

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Speaker 2: the shooter. And the thing is they knew this, but

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Speaker 2: nobody cared.

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Speaker 1: So you both had different lawyers, So two people who

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Speaker 1: were supposed to be working on your behalf, what were

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Speaker 1: they doing with all of this information?

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Speaker 3: At trial, we made the mistake of a friend of

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Speaker 3: my mom's told her that their son could be a

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Speaker 3: good lawyer for us, and we accepted that, but he

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Speaker 3: wasn't a criminal defense attorney. He had not tried one

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Speaker 3: criminal case, and he wound up being a person putting

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Speaker 3: our defense together. My lawyer had been retired and he

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Speaker 3: was kind of older and he was a little out

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Speaker 3: of step. Were just not prepared for a capital case. Now,

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Speaker 3: the difference is Robert Leef was prepared. He knew the

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Speaker 3: system and he knew how to work the system. We

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Speaker 3: were naive.

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Speaker 2: We thought that we were innocent and it was going

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Speaker 2: to be shown and it never was.

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Speaker 1: Literally, if you put this in the movie, you say, well,

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Speaker 1: one guy's represented by a friend of a friend who

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Speaker 1: never tried a criminal case before this capital murder we're

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Speaker 1: talking about, and the other guys tried by a guy

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Speaker 1: that they literally pulled out a retirement and wheeled him

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Speaker 1: into the courtroom. You guys didn't even know that you're doomed.

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Speaker 1: You're thinking, hey, we go in tell the truth. You

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Speaker 1: were the only guys in the courtroom telling the truth.

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Speaker 1: That's the only problem, right, and that doesn't work.

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Speaker 2: And that's the thing that you know, even now gets

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Speaker 2: to me a little bit because I spent twenty seven

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Speaker 2: years in prison when this be nipping of it early on,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't have to never go to prison after

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Speaker 2: twenty seven years. You know, sometimes in your mind you think, well,

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Speaker 2: you should have took there, But what would we have said.

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Speaker 2: We didn't commit the crime, We didn't know anything about It.

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Speaker 2: Took us twenty eight years to learn enough about this

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Speaker 2: case to be able to talk about it. Where though

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Speaker 2: we knew some of the facts that happened, we had

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Speaker 2: to find in the police file. They went to court

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Speaker 2: knowing that these witnesses was identifying my brother, but they

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Speaker 2: had determined that was the shooter. The prosecutors knew this,

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Speaker 2: the detectives knew this. But this is the problem with

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Speaker 2: the system. Nobody cared about the truth. It was about

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Speaker 2: let's get the conviction at all costs.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So they knew you weren't involved from the jump,

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Speaker 1: But since you wouldn't plead to lesser charges that you

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Speaker 1: knew and I think they knew were false, they threw

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Speaker 1: you into this kangaroo court situation tied to Robert Leaf,

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Speaker 1: who was the actual culprit here, and to let the

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Speaker 1: chips fall where they may, that's how they put it.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So then you were represented by people who had no

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Speaker 1: business whatsoever really even being in this courtroom, right, I

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Speaker 1: mean definitely not as lawyers in a capital murder case

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Speaker 1: and you're literally on trial for your lives. So what

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Speaker 1: was that like.

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Speaker 2: I can tell you what it was like. Robert Leif's

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Speaker 2: attorney communicated with our attorneys and they spolly had a

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Speaker 2: joint defense, and right towards the time the jury was

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Speaker 2: going out the deliberation, I remember my attorney looking back

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Speaker 2: and saying, I don't think that his attorney was with us,

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Speaker 2: And I said, you think like he was doing everything

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Speaker 2: in his power to get his client the best possible

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Speaker 2: verdict he could get. He used the defense to paint

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Speaker 2: a picture so that we would wind up with the

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Speaker 2: most out of this and his client would, if not

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Speaker 2: walk free, get the least.

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Speaker 1: So the jury goes out, they come back in four

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Speaker 1: or five hours later. Did you guys have hope that

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Speaker 1: they were going to actually see the light and that

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Speaker 1: you were going to be vindicated.

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Speaker 2: I mean it was just a blur of a moment.

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Speaker 2: Of course, you hold out hope that the system is

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Speaker 2: going to do the right thing. I mean we were

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Speaker 2: raised like everybody else, watching police shows and court shows,

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Speaker 2: and from what they show on TV, it always seemed

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Speaker 2: like the system does the right thing, everything would turn

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Speaker 2: out right, even though everything was looking wrong.

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Speaker 3: We believed in the system to the point where I

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Speaker 3: had put an application to the police force to being arrested.

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Speaker 3: Like around the time when I got convicted, my wife

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Speaker 3: received the letter saying that I was accepted to go

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Speaker 3: to the next phase.

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Speaker 1: Jesus Christ. I mean, it's like you had. This was

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Speaker 1: like an alternate reality, the life that should have been right.

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Speaker 1: But okay, so the jury comes back in and the

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Speaker 1: verdict is guilty. I mean, can you tell us about

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Speaker 1: that moment. It's I mean, it's obviously horrible for anyone

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Speaker 1: who experiences it, but here it's worse because one brother

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Speaker 1: had to hear the other brother being declared guilty, followed

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Speaker 1: by being declared guilty himself.

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Speaker 2: I gotta tell you, being oldest, I probably was the weakest.

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Speaker 2: When I heard the verdict.

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Speaker 3: It was like I was in a state of shock,

392
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Speaker 3: and my legs buckled, and I remember I felt like

393
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Speaker 3: I was going down to the floor, and I remember

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Speaker 3: hearing my grandmom's voice in the back.

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Speaker 2: Saying, stand up real loud, don't you fall on that ground.

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Speaker 2: Stand up that part. I ain't never gonna forget when

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Speaker 2: they've been to divertict. I felt like I was in

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Speaker 2: the twilight zone, like this wasn't happening, Like somebody's going

399
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Speaker 2: to come in and say, we're just kidding. This is

400
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Speaker 2: not how it's supposed to end for us. I mean,

401
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Speaker 2: we played by the rules. You know, we were taught

402
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Speaker 2: to work hard for whatever we get in life, and

403
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Speaker 2: that's what we did. We were taught to mind the

404
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Speaker 2: people in the neighborhood, the elders, to respect people. You

405
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Speaker 2: know that this don't happen to decent people.

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Speaker 3: And it was crazy because he immediately SAIDs us to

407
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Speaker 3: life without the possibility for rule immediately. And you know,

408
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Speaker 3: when our family got a chance to speak on our behalf,

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Speaker 3: each one of our family members got up there. They

410
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Speaker 3: said that we didn't commit the crime, and the judge

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Speaker 3: got bad at some point. I think he told my

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Speaker 3: sister that if you're going to say that they didn't

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Speaker 3: commit this crime, then don't need to get up y.

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Speaker 2: I haven't hurt enough of that. So, I mean, we

415
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Speaker 2: were to distraught beyond words can describe it. I became angry,

416
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Speaker 2: angry at the system, angry at myself for allowing myself

417
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Speaker 2: to even be in that situation. Around a guy like this.

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Speaker 2: And as time went on, my grandmother came to see

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Speaker 2: as my grandmother and my mother and we would just

420
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Speaker 2: complain and complain about everything that was going on. We

421
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Speaker 2: was talking about how dark prison was, you know, how

422
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Speaker 2: cold it always seems to be in there. You know

423
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Speaker 2: how these folks around here they don't care about anything.

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Speaker 2: And I remember my grandmother said, you know, if it's cold,

425
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Speaker 2: then heated up with love, and if it's dark, then

426
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 2: lighted up with hope. And my brother and I we

427
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Speaker 2: looked at each other and said, Grandma, how much I

428
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Speaker 2: have lost her mind? He was looking at each other

429
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Speaker 2: like this lady for real? Like did she realize that

430
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Speaker 2: were in the prison for a crime we didn't commit.

431
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Speaker 2: She's telling us to do what? So the thing is

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Speaker 2: didn't make sense to us at that time. But as

433
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Speaker 2: the years would go by and we would begin the

434
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Speaker 2: process like reading you know, self help books, history books,

435
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Speaker 2: psychology books, and we were beginning taking the various programs

436
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 2: that was available towards to educate ourselves. And we would

437
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Speaker 2: go to the law library at least five days a

438
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,679
Speaker 2: week and we were just being there for hours reading

439
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,639
Speaker 2: this law, trying to decipher this law these cases and

440
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 2: figure out ways how to argue and plead, because at

441
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 2: some point we had to take over our own representation

442
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 2: because the lawyers they were signing us was to up

443
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,879
Speaker 2: to park. And through that process more we became educated.

444
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 2: The anger got directed in a different direction, and that

445
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 2: anger all of a sudden started becoming more about helping

446
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 2: men in prison that was wrongfully convicted as well, men

447
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 2: that got more time than they should have.

448
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 3: The revenge was going to be to try to send

449
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,359
Speaker 3: as many guys home as we could that would not

450
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 3: come back to prison.

451
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,640
Speaker 2: And he talks about the law library, and that law library,

452
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 2: we had a couple of tables of men who are

453
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 2: all home now, who've all been exonerated. All of us

454
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 2: was at those tables in nineteen ninety five, we all

455
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 2: sitting around a table. And as the years were about,

456
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 2: more and more men came into the institution and they

457
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 2: would sit at those tables, and at the end of

458
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 2: the day it was two of us as left. At

459
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 2: the time, nobody was going home. Years later, everybody started

460
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: trickling out, so eventually we would get transferred to another prison,

461
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 2: which was a treatment facility more so geared towards programming

462
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 2: and things like that. And so this prison, which was

463
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 2: at Cichester, was kind of telling maybe for men like

464
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 2: Le and I. And one of the first things that

465
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 2: we do is become a certified pair Support Specialists. That

466
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 2: means we work with people who struggle with mental health issues,

467
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 2: struggle with all kinds of issues, addiction, struggle with anger issues,

468
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 2: people who just having a hard time adjusting the prison life.

469
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 2: And we went to work and they started seeing how

470
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 2: the assault on officers, rate on staff started to drop,

471
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 2: They started seeing the rate on prison on prisoner assaults drop,

472
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 2: write ups started to drop. Everything in the prison started

473
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 2: getting better as result of a certified pay support Specialist program.

474
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 2: And from there we began to branch out into other areas.

475
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 2: The ward, the superintendent, and the deputy superintendent allowed Lee

476
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 2: and I to be able to facilitate many a programs.

477
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: You know. We facilitated programs like Thresholds, which was a

478
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 2: six step decisional making program. We taught men how to

479
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 2: make better decisions in their lives so that they can

480
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 2: also get through prison much better, but not only get

481
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,199
Speaker 2: through prison, but go home to their families and do

482
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 2: better in society. We facilitated a health and Wellness program,

483
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 2: and through this program we founded the day Responsibility in

484
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 2: that particular institution. What we did was we created a

485
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 2: play and the play would have areas in it would

486
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 2: talk about recidivism, the impact of crime, dysfunction, trauma. I

487
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 2: think it took us like fifty five fifty seven people

488
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 2: to put this play on, and it was like a

489
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 2: food production. We put the roles out for men to

490
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 2: sign up and they had to try out for the parts.

491
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 2: It was so widely successful that the administration said, well, hey, listen,

492
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 2: why you guys didn't do this bigger. So we went

493
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 2: on to do another three more plays within that institution,

494
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 2: and we went from fifty seven people being involved in

495
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 2: the year after that, one hundred and something people was involved.

496
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 2: The following year. We put workshops on right after the play,

497
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 2: so not only did we do the play, but we

498
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 2: also put together twenty to thirty workshops where we would

499
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 2: talk about these various things that were plaguing our community.

500
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 2: And then those workshops, we would invite people from the community, organizations,

501
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 2: from the community that was involved in stopping violence, like ceasefire,

502
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 2: and universities to come in students and professors. We would

503
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 2: invite politicians to come in.

504
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 1: So while you're doing this amazing work, you're also, of course,

505
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 1: you know, simultaneously fighting to overturn your own wrongful conviction.

506
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 1: But so much of the information that you were discovering,

507
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: exculpatory evidence, right tons of it was time barred, which

508
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: means it was held back, you barred from being introduced

509
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: because of procedural bullshit.

510
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 3: I mean, it was a lot of things that came, like,

511
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 3: you know, the police officer when we found out about

512
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 3: the internal fair investigation, they said that was public.

513
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 2: Information that we should have known about it, even though

514
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,239
Speaker 2: we had no idea that she was going through this,

515
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,239
Speaker 2: so how would we even know to look for it,

516
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: So that was time barred. We had a witness individual

517
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 2: we ran across who Robert Leif had confessed to because

518
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 2: he was also incarcerated.

519
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 3: When we met him, they said that wasn't usable because

520
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 3: he's a prisoner, so of course he would help you.

521
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 2: They use confessions against you, but you can't use one

522
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 2: from somebody to get out of prison. But he said

523
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 2: clearly what happened. Robert Leaf made a statement, and in

524
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 2: his statement he identified the person he was with as

525
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 2: somebody named Eddie and in the state he said, clearly

526
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 2: when they said that this man died, and they believed

527
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 2: he did it at the time because they took his

528
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 2: jacket and they did paraffine tests on it, they did

529
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: nitrate tests on his hands and all this kind of

530
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 2: stuff like this.

531
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 3: And he said, if the man died, it was his

532
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 3: time to die, then if I got to do the

533
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 3: time for it, then I'll do the time for it.

534
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 2: That's what he said in his statement. And he said

535
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 2: something in the.

536
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 3: Statement referring to us that put us not even with him,

537
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 3: so everything that we would get would be time barne.

538
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 3: So we spent twenty years pretty much fighting to overcome

539
00:27:33,040 --> 00:28:01,479
Speaker 3: procedural hurdles. When we was transferred to ci Chester, a

540
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 3: staff member who was watching us at the time, he

541
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 3: was a counselor, and he started talking to us in

542
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 3: general conversation and then one day he called us in

543
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 3: they and he asked what was we doing to get

544
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 3: out of prison, And we told him about our fight

545
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 3: in the courts and about our.

546
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 2: Innocence and everything like this, and he said, you know.

547
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 3: I believe y'all, I really believe everything you've been telling me.

548
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 3: And he is the one that suggested to us that

549
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 3: we filed for commutation, and at the time we told

550
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 3: him that we were actually innocent and that wasn't the

551
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 3: venue for commutation.

552
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 2: And he spent months trying to convince us to file

553
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: for commutation and just to give in, just to agree

554
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 2: with him. We said okay, and he introduced us to

555
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: a professor whose name is Kathleen Brown, who helped a

556
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: lot of other guys with commutation applications. And she came

557
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: to see us and we told her our story and

558
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 2: she said, well, won't you follow actual innocence application. She

559
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 2: said it would be the first one, but just write

560
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: and just tell him what you told me. And that's

561
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: what we did.

562
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 3: And the first time we went before the board far

563
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 3: as we was denied and we were distraught. And around

564
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 3: that time my mom was sick and she passed away

565
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 3: not too long after that, and she was so supportive.

566
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 3: We didn't talk a lot about her, but she was

567
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 3: the person that was fueling our fight for all those years.

568
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: You know, my grandma's word just kept bringing in our

569
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 2: ears that keep fighting. And we had developed the philosophy

570
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 2: of freemen have freed themselves. So we went back to

571
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: the courts, and then we filed for reconsideration and that

572
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 2: was denied. And then we came back and filed for

573
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,959
Speaker 2: reconsideration again and they granted the reconsideration based on some

574
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: other stuff. But right before that, the Lieutenant Governor John

575
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 2: Fetterman started taking up our calls. He looked at our application,

576
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 2: he'd seen everything in it, and he just started doing

577
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 2: what it was the right thing to do. He started

578
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 2: fighting for us, and the rest is history.

579
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 5: I am a Lieutenant Governor, John Fetterman of Pennsylvania and

580
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 5: I also chair of the Board of Partons and Commutations

581
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 5: here and I became acquainted with Dennis and Lee's case

582
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 5: during one of their reapplicat for commutation, and when I

583
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 5: read through it, I was blown away that these men

584
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 5: were ever in prison, let alone struggling to be sent home.

585
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 5: It's their background is astonishing. In Pennsylvania, the Board of

586
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 5: Pardons requires a unanimous vote of five members. It has

587
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 5: to be unanimous. If you don't get that threshold, that

588
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 5: person is going to die in prison. And that, to

589
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 5: me triggered a campaign to make sure that Lee and

590
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 5: Dennis would be able to return to their families because

591
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 5: this is a gross miscarriage of justice. Not only are

592
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 5: they profoundly deserving that they have always maintained their innocence.

593
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 5: Everyone believes that these men, including the warden and the

594
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 5: Department of Corrections, that they have no business being in prison,

595
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 5: and I'm so grateful that they're out on so many levels.

596
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 5: In fact, I actually hired them to work on our campaign.

597
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 5: They are far better a person and stronger a person

598
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 5: than I could ever be. For what they went through

599
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 5: to have emerged with the kind of humanity that they

600
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 5: just radiate is nothing short of remarkable.

601
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: So paint a picture for me. It's February twelfth, twenty

602
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: twenty one, just two days before Valentine's Day. Governor Wolfe

603
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: signs the papers, and you're about to see your wife again.

604
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,479
Speaker 3: I would tell you honestly, it was extremely amazing and

605
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 3: difficult at the same time.

606
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 2: It was like a miracle. It brought a sense of anxiety,

607
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: but also it was a great feeling of hope. Prison

608
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 2: For me it was a darkness I was in, and

609
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: when I walked out it seemed like everything was bright,

610
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 2: everything was beautiful. I could see everything.

611
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: Dennis, how about for you and for me?

612
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 2: It was bitter sweet at the same time because my

613
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: mother was no longer there. She never gave up with

614
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: fighting with us and to come home, and for her

615
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 2: not to be here, I mean, it was just so painful,

616
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 2: but it felt good to be free. It was just unbelievable.

617
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 2: I felt like I can breathe again. But at the

618
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 2: same time, I'm still like bewildered because some may not

619
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 2: even get this chance, and I want to see others

620
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 2: that are deserving of the same opportunity to get it.

621
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 2: We found our sense of purpose while we were in prison,

622
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 2: and that purpose was helping others, helping others to know

623
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: that prison, you may be here, but this is not

624
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 2: who you are, and this is not who you have

625
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: to be. And we did that by leading, by showing

626
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 2: people we cared about them, and through that care and

627
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: through that love, we begin to inspire men to be

628
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 2: more hopeful about and more optimistic about their future.

629
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really just an amazing, amazing story perseverance

630
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: and triumph over struggling tragedy. And you know the fact

631
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: that you guys, with the inspiration and the support of

632
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: your families and other people, we're able to take this

633
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: unimaginable burden and rise above it and turn it into

634
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: something that enabled you to transform the lives of so

635
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: many other people, and that you're still doing it today.

636
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: It's nothing short. It's magical. Really, it's incredible. And for

637
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: the people who are listening right now, who are inspired

638
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: and who are going to want to take action and

639
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: make a difference because of what you guys have been

640
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: able to accomplish. Is there anything you guys want to suggest?

641
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 3: What I just would say my call action would be

642
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 3: to pay attention to what's going on out here in

643
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 3: society and to support criminal justice reform. Every innocent man

644
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 3: is not going to make it out of prison, and

645
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 3: it's a lot left behind, so we need some sort

646
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 3: of criminal justice before and to make a way for

647
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 3: others to be able to come out.

648
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: Now we've come to the part of the show that's well,

649
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: it's the closing of the show, but it's become my

650
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: favorite part of the show. And of course it's called

651
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: closing arguments, And I want to say, first of all,

652
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: I appreciate you guys tremendously just for being here and

653
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: sharing your story. You know, you guys are heroes to

654
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 1: me and so many other people, and I'm excited to

655
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: get this out there, and get this story out in

656
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: a way in the way that it should have been

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00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: told from the very beginning, and so closing arguments. What

658
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 1: we do here, how this works is I'm just going

659
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 1: to turn my microphone off and leave both of yours on,

660
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: and I'm going to just sit back in my chair

661
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: and listen to anything that you feel has been left unsaid.

662
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: So Dennis, how about you go first, and then Lee

663
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 1: you'll be bad and clean up.

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00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 2: So, folks, first of all, thank you for tuning in.

665
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to my brother and I recount

666
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 2: our story. The thing is this, at the end of

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00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 2: the day, the people control the system. The system don't

668
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: control you, but we've gotten to a place where we

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00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 2: allow the system to control us. This is supposed to

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00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: be our system, and we're supposed to hold people accountable

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00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 2: for the decisions they make on our behalf. So the

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00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 2: only thing I would say is please get involved and

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00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 2: know with the prosecutors, Know with the district attorney, know

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00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: what the police are doing on your down because we

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00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 2: pay the taxes that pay their salaries, and if this

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00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 2: is how they're doing business, then we need to make

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00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 2: sure we hold them accountable. My brother not with free,

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00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 2: but there are countless others that are not free. My

679
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 2: grandma once told us that life gives you what life

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00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 2: gives you, and it's up to you to make something

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00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: out of it. So when we went to prison, that

682
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 2: wasn't the end of our story.

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00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,919
Speaker 3: That was just another leg in our journey. The next

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00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 3: part of our journey, we hope is spectacular. We want

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00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 3: to do a lot of things out here in society.

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00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:51,919
Speaker 3: We did a lot of positive working inside and we'll

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00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 3: do a lot of positive work out here.

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00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: And so what I would say is make sure you

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00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 2: pay attention to what's going on. When somebody say they've

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00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 2: been wrongfully convicted, try to give them the benefit of

691
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 2: the doubt because they could be just like us, two

692
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,399
Speaker 2: individuals who just took a ride and wind up being

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00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 2: arrested and sent away and spend twenty eight years trying

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00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 2: to come back home.

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00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

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00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn,

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00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music

698
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated

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00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph be sure to follow us on Instagram

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00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and

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00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava

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00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow

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00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flopp.

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00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcasts

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00:36:55,040 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one