Speaker 1: Milton Charles Grimes has been practicing law in Los Angeles
Speaker 1: for the last forty eight years. He's worked on fifty
Speaker 1: six murder trials, but also some highly publicized civil rights
Speaker 1: cases dealing with the guy named Rodney King who beat
Speaker 1: ten cops. No, he got beat by four cops, and
Speaker 1: twenty seven cops totally watched that other than the four
Speaker 1: that participated in the beating. Grimes was responsible for winning
Speaker 1: a three point eight million dollar civil claim on behalf
Speaker 1: of King, the black motorist who was brutally beaten by
Speaker 1: the Los Angeles Police Department and whose assailants were ultimately
Speaker 1: found not guilty, sparking an uprising across the city of
Speaker 1: Los Angeles and the country at large. We refer a
Speaker 1: lot back to the so called La Riots in this podcast,
Speaker 1: because it was in many ways the blaze that caught
Speaker 1: from the powder keg that was l a when American
Speaker 1: Me came out. The violence and gang culture portrayed in
Speaker 1: American Me is the result of the societal neglect and
Speaker 1: state of pression experienced primarily by people of color for
Speaker 1: decades in Los Angeles. But we're speaking to Milton Grimes
Speaker 1: about a different client today. Joe Morgan was held to
Speaker 1: be the leader of the Mexican mafia. I understand I
Speaker 1: met Joe Morgan. I guess was in the early nineties.
Speaker 1: Um I was asked to if I would represent him
Speaker 1: because he was not being cared for properly in the
Speaker 1: California prison system. He was at Pelican Bay, which is
Speaker 1: like the top security prison in California and a boast
Speaker 1: of that anyway, and Joe was there and he wasn't
Speaker 1: receiving proper medical care for his uh tessim or stomach cancer,
Speaker 1: and so a friend of his, Shirley um McDonald, asked
Speaker 1: me if I would help him. And I went up
Speaker 1: there and interview with him, and he asked me if
Speaker 1: I could help him seek proper medical attention, and that's
Speaker 1: how I got acquainted with him. Joe peg Leg Morgan
Speaker 1: was also who Edward James almost allegedly based the character
Speaker 1: of Jdon played by William Forsyth in the movie clicka
Speaker 1: ar Barrio Our Families. That's how we gotta see when
Speaker 1: we were kids, belonging felt good, but having respect with
Speaker 1: set feels even better. He was known for having a
Speaker 1: shaved head a prosthetic leg, hence the nickname and piercing
Speaker 1: eyes a lot like j D. The youngest of four siblings,
Speaker 1: Morgan was born on April tenth in San Pedro, California,
Speaker 1: to Croatian immigrants Clara and Grego Medagak, a truck driver.
Speaker 1: According to infallible Internet reference site wikipedia dot com, shortly
Speaker 1: after his birth, his father naturalized as a US citizen,
Speaker 1: anglicizing the family name to Morgan due to an anti immigrant,
Speaker 1: anti Slavic sentiment at the time. In the year Morgan
Speaker 1: was born, the US past immigration laws limiting immigration from
Speaker 1: the Balkans. It's believed that more than half of the
Speaker 1: Croatian population in the US at the time was deported
Speaker 1: from the nation. Morgan grew up in a primarily Mexican
Speaker 1: and Croatian neighborhood in San Pedro. You can understand then,
Speaker 1: how Morgan comes to identify with Mexican culture and people
Speaker 1: who likewise had faced xenophobia and discriminatory immigration practices. He
Speaker 1: ultimately moved to another Mexican neighborhood, Boil Heights. In the
Speaker 1: late nineteen thirties, he joined the Ford Maravilla Street Gang,
Speaker 1: one of the oldest documented gangs in Los Angeles, maybe
Speaker 1: the oldest. The predominantly Hispanic gang was part of a
Speaker 1: larger group known as Barrio Maraba, based in East l A,
Speaker 1: a gang that at some point had beef with the
Speaker 1: Mexican Mafia. So how does Joe Morgan come to become
Speaker 1: part of Lammy Choices We Made to Survive? Godmundo J.
Speaker 1: D n Me ten to five collections, according to his
Speaker 1: obituary in The l A Times. In nineteen forty six,
Speaker 1: at the age of sixteen, Morgan became romantically involved with
Speaker 1: a thirty two year old woman literally twice his age,
Speaker 1: eventually bludgeting her fifty two year old husband to death
Speaker 1: with a tire iron and burying him in a shallow
Speaker 1: grave in Malibu Hills. While awaiting trial in County jail,
Speaker 1: Morgan escaped from custody by posing as his cellmate, who
Speaker 1: was scheduled to be transferred to a juvenile forestry camp.
Speaker 1: After he was captured, Morgan was convicted of second degree
Speaker 1: murder and sent to San Quentin, where he served nine years.
Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty six, a year after his parole, he
Speaker 1: was sent back to prison for a machine gun robbery
Speaker 1: of a West Covina bank, where he made off with
Speaker 1: seventeen thousand dollars the equivalent of a hundred and eighty
Speaker 1: five thousand today. While serving his sentence, he was transferred
Speaker 1: from Fulsome back to County Jail in nineteen sixty one
Speaker 1: so he could testify at another murder trial. From there,
Speaker 1: he led an escape of eleven inmates through a pipe shaft,
Speaker 1: reportedly using tools hidden in his prosthesis. The dude hid
Speaker 1: tools in his fake leg. He was arrested a week
Speaker 1: later as he shopped for groceries on the West Side.
Speaker 1: Back in prison, he gradually befriended the leaders of the
Speaker 1: Mexican Mafia, which was formed at Dual Vocational Institution in
Speaker 1: Tracy in the mid fifties by a group of hardcore
Speaker 1: East Side gang members seeking to establish a gang of gangs.
Speaker 1: Although he was Anglo, Morgan was fluent in Spanish and
Speaker 1: identified strongly with Latino culture. Come on totally. Quote, as
Speaker 1: far as we were concerned, he was a Mexican, said
Speaker 1: Raymond Mundo Mendoza forty three, a former Mexican Mafia hitman
Speaker 1: who left the organization in the nineteen seventies after embracing Christianity. Quote.
Speaker 1: If anybody ever called him a white boy. I have
Speaker 1: no doubt he would have killed him. He knew what
Speaker 1: he was as far as his jeans were concerned, but
Speaker 1: his heart was Chicano end quote. Once firmly inside the mafia,
Speaker 1: Morgan studied Aztec mythology and the writings of Ocdavio pass.
Speaker 1: He got along well with the guards, but never sold
Speaker 1: out his comrades, often using the affectionate term mijo to
Speaker 1: address a particularly trusted friend. That's all from the l
Speaker 1: a times oh bit. Some say Morgan was well respected
Speaker 1: within the ranks of the Mexican Mafia and eventually became
Speaker 1: a high ranking member. According to at least one former
Speaker 1: member we spoke to, though Joe was well liked, but
Speaker 1: he wasn't high ranking. His status is in non Mexican
Speaker 1: would have never allowed it. However, others say his connections
Speaker 1: with drug suppliers in Mexico helped pave the foundation for
Speaker 1: the Mexican Mafia's narcotics business. Morgan was even able to
Speaker 1: persuade the Aryan Brotherhood to forge a loose alliance with
Speaker 1: LA due to having the Black Guerrilla Family as a
Speaker 1: mutual arrival. Similar events play out as scenes in American
Speaker 1: me but again with certain crucial details that are contested
Speaker 1: by the Mexican mafia, including a scene where the b
Speaker 1: GF kills a whole bunch of MS by suffocating them
Speaker 1: in piles of heroin. Yeah, I know who you are
Speaker 1: now breathe deep. We'll get into that in a later episode.
Speaker 1: This was after Morgan had tried and successfully made some
Speaker 1: loose alliances with black gangs, which eventually broke down because
Speaker 1: the Mexican leaders at the time had issues with multiple
Speaker 1: black gangs, you know, because Latinos are also racist. It
Speaker 1: was thought that Morgan wanted to set deals with white
Speaker 1: and black gangs to ensure that Lama could come out
Speaker 1: the dominant force with little resistance. This was a characteristic
Speaker 1: Morgan was known for being very political and strategic. Allegedly,
Speaker 1: Morgan made diplomatic relations with the Los Angeles Italian crime
Speaker 1: family through Michael Ristello, who he met during the nine
Speaker 1: years sentence the mobster was serving in Chino for a
Speaker 1: string of armed robberies during the nineteen seventies. Another event
Speaker 1: loosely depicted in the film. There's going to be some
Speaker 1: changes in the way business has done mist from now
Speaker 1: and are people who are going to be responsible for
Speaker 1: the easterly Exchange. All deliveries between Mexico and Exchange are
Speaker 1: going to be done through US. All collections are going
Speaker 1: to be done by us. Is that's what you came
Speaker 1: here for to tell me my business for now one
Speaker 1: your business into Vadio. It's going to be our business too.
Speaker 1: It's rumored that Morgan even committed the first prison gang
Speaker 1: street execution in Los Angeles in and here's a rumor
Speaker 1: I love. It's believed that Morgan offered Croatian political refugees
Speaker 1: protection from Yugoslav agents in the US. Los Angeles was
Speaker 1: one of the few cities Croatians could openly oppose the
Speaker 1: Communist government without any of the local leadership being murdered
Speaker 1: like in Chicago or New York City. Supposedly, Morgan used
Speaker 1: his gang ties to intimidate or even murder Yugoslavian state
Speaker 1: agents sent to kill their political rivals. Again citing Moondo
Speaker 1: Mendoza in the l A. Times obituary quote. With his savvy,
Speaker 1: his manipulative skills, his intelligence, his charisma, and his knack
Speaker 1: for being profitable, he easily could have been the president
Speaker 1: of a major corporation. Part of him was cruel, and
Speaker 1: cold blooded, but there was a side of Joe that
Speaker 1: was very human, very humane end quote. Welcome to more
Speaker 1: than a Movie American Me, a podcast that digs into
Speaker 1: the history and mystery of American Met, a film directed
Speaker 1: by and starring Edward James almost that had a huge
Speaker 1: impact on Latino cinema and culture. I'm your host, Alex Fumeto,
Speaker 1: and I'll be diving into the behind the scenes controversy
Speaker 1: every episode. I'm gonna try to peel back a layer
Speaker 1: of the story by trying to go deeper into the
Speaker 1: intentions and motives behind the film and the backlash. Thirty
Speaker 1: years later, on today's podcast, I'm speaking to Milton Grimes,
Speaker 1: attorney for Mexican Mafia member Joe Morgan, who was the
Speaker 1: basis for the character j D in American Meat. So
Speaker 1: when you went to meet with uh Joe Morgan, Uh,
Speaker 1: it was to bring a lawsuit against uh the state
Speaker 1: of California. First, it was to see what was happening
Speaker 1: with him and why was he complaining about the lack
Speaker 1: of proper medical care and look into that and to
Speaker 1: attempt to get the administration of the prison system to
Speaker 1: give him care proper care. As you are entitled to
Speaker 1: when your institutional lives, and yet not totally unsurprising that
Speaker 1: the criminal justice system failed. And I tried those cases,
Speaker 1: a couple of them, and it's, uh, it should be surprising.
Speaker 1: Was not surprising, But how can you let a human
Speaker 1: beings suffer? Is beyond my understanding? I agreed. So, Um,
Speaker 1: how well did you get to know Joe Morgan in
Speaker 1: that process? Um? I spent a few hours with him.
Speaker 1: We may have talked on the phone. I'm not sure occasion.
Speaker 1: I believe, I believe we had meetings, and I'm not
Speaker 1: even sure about that. I understand that it went from
Speaker 1: there too, the suing of the major studios who produced
Speaker 1: the video or the video the movie American me portraying
Speaker 1: Mr Morrigan in that movie, and there was some dispute
Speaker 1: as to some of the things they portrayed Mr Morrigan
Speaker 1: in and there was some disagreement with people that were
Speaker 1: knowledgeable are involved in the Mexican Association, and uh, they
Speaker 1: disagreed with some of the portrayals in their of Mr Morgan,
Speaker 1: and um, some disputes and disagreements came out of that,
Speaker 1: and UM, that's what happened. And you can say it's
Speaker 1: just a movie. But a lot of times people don't
Speaker 1: know the difference. Take the Fox News talk show where
Speaker 1: they're trying to explain to the host what prison is like,
Speaker 1: he'll shake it, he's gonna see I tell you, I
Speaker 1: don't know. Was that a television program? That's I saw
Speaker 1: the one. I've seen that one. But then they were
Speaker 1: all like cutting the garlic the American You know that
Speaker 1: one too, I've seen that with the rice bag, and
Speaker 1: I'm just saying yes at this point, coming out poppy.
Speaker 1: So it's it's thought that the character that that Mr
Speaker 1: Morgan was Um took issue with the character j D
Speaker 1: who is uh played by William Forsyth Um, who is
Speaker 1: not of Mexican descent? Was was Joe Morgan Mexican? I
Speaker 1: believe he was port your Geese. I believe that he
Speaker 1: was not Mexican. They say he was white, he's not Latino,
Speaker 1: but I believe he was Portuguese. He was Croatian. How
Speaker 1: does a guy like that end up associated with an
Speaker 1: organization called the Mexican Mafia. Well, he lived in the
Speaker 1: East l A Area. I understand he associated Those were
Speaker 1: his playmates, Those where his friends, those were That's where
Speaker 1: he grew up and he adopted the culture. Uh, and
Speaker 1: they believed in him. Uh, they loved him. Um, and
Speaker 1: he was as one of them as a native born one. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, there's something about how do I say this?
Speaker 1: Black people have a way of identifying and accepting people
Speaker 1: of an opposite race that may even be part of
Speaker 1: the race that is oppressing them. But if you're a
Speaker 1: person with a heart and you show concerned love and
Speaker 1: belief and loyalty to the group, I think the color
Speaker 1: of your skin and the race you are takes a
Speaker 1: second seat. That makes sense. I mean from what I heard,
Speaker 1: Joe was fluent in Spanish, right right, he which he
Speaker 1: identified with the culture. Many Chicano's aren't even fluent in
Speaker 1: Spanish Spanish, you know, especially in the US, right right,
Speaker 1: and and he Um, So when you come to meet him,
Speaker 1: it's sort of it's at a later point in his life. Um.
Speaker 1: How does he come to be held at Pelican Bay?
Speaker 1: His sentence, I don't I've forgotten what it was for.
Speaker 1: Was it for any murder? I believe somewhat that was involved.
Speaker 1: But next Pelican Bay was known to hold the worst
Speaker 1: of the worst, so to speak. Quote, I visited Pelican
Speaker 1: Bay once because I had a deaf pility case and
Speaker 1: I wanted to visit it so I would know what
Speaker 1: I was talking about when I talked to the jury
Speaker 1: about spiring, sparing, sparing my client's life and not putting
Speaker 1: him to death, and that Pelican Bay was a place
Speaker 1: where NAT couldn't get out of if it was locked
Speaker 1: up in there. You follow me, And it seemed like
Speaker 1: that when I was there, pardon, it was like the
Speaker 1: Blacks was on the weight power one hour, two hours,
Speaker 1: and the Whites was the next, and the Latinos was
Speaker 1: the next, and they didn't integrate, and they separated, and
Speaker 1: they kept the hostility amongst the groups so that they
Speaker 1: could be entertained, or for whatever other up and reason
Speaker 1: they do that in the prison system. But getting back
Speaker 1: to your question why Joe was assigned there at that
Speaker 1: time and in his life, I guess it was just
Speaker 1: to make sure he would be fully punished for what
Speaker 1: society or the institution thought he needed to be punished for.
Speaker 1: Coming up, Milton Grimes will tell us about the Joe
Speaker 1: Morgan that he met face to face in prison. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to More Than a Movie. I'm Alex Fometto and
Speaker 1: we're talking to criminal and civil attorney Milton Times, who
Speaker 1: represented Mexican mafia member. I want to go back a
Speaker 1: little bit to this, this meeting that you had with
Speaker 1: Joe Morgan. Can you what do you remember about him
Speaker 1: and his personality meeting him? Rather than be in a terror,
Speaker 1: a monster that would attack and I was supposed to
Speaker 1: shiver in front of I remember him being a mild mannered,
Speaker 1: grandfatherly type. To be honest with you, the monster was
Speaker 1: not there. And I have to admit that I had
Speaker 1: some concerns with meeting the infamous Joe Morrigan. You're following me.
Speaker 1: None of that was there. None of that was there.
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean, I've represented Shugu Night, I've
Speaker 1: represented a number of people who are supposed to be
Speaker 1: I won't say ax killers, that's taken it too far,
Speaker 1: but people of people. Man. You know, people do some
Speaker 1: things that are bad and ugly. But I've learned to
Speaker 1: try to see the human side of people and respect
Speaker 1: that and and just I respect you, I expect you
Speaker 1: to respect me so that that monster is not there.
Speaker 1: So did you what did you know about the Mexican
Speaker 1: mafia before going into Mitcho? What did I know, I
Speaker 1: know that during that time they're in the drug cases,
Speaker 1: you had to be careful as an attorney not to
Speaker 1: get too involved with them or close to the guys
Speaker 1: that were known to or suspected to be involved with
Speaker 1: the cartels, because you lose control. You could lose control
Speaker 1: of the case, in your office and your life because
Speaker 1: if you got too close and you learned too much,
Speaker 1: you could get killed. Uh So that was that kind
Speaker 1: of fear out there. I didn't have that concern as
Speaker 1: much because I try to keep a professional relationship with clients.
Speaker 1: Even though I get personal with clients. I like to
Speaker 1: get to know who am I representing, because I don't
Speaker 1: think you can represent a person very well if you
Speaker 1: don't get to learn who they are, and they learn
Speaker 1: who you are, and you can get a more honest relationship.
Speaker 1: So but I was I was cautious about when a
Speaker 1: person is going to be coming from Mexico to retain me,
Speaker 1: and they may have certain demands and they're gonna want
Speaker 1: to know everything and anything that's going on, and I
Speaker 1: want to give you directions on what to do, and
Speaker 1: and I just don't want that. The money you can
Speaker 1: keep it, you can, and there were a lot of
Speaker 1: guys made a lot of money. With a hundred two
Speaker 1: fifty thousand, half million dollars billion dollar fees, I represented
Speaker 1: more the midline dealers during that time. How did you
Speaker 1: How did you choose your clients? How did you decide
Speaker 1: I want to represent this person. I think everyone is
Speaker 1: entitled to representation. Uh uh. I've represented child molesters, I've
Speaker 1: represented murderers, I've represented the run of them, everybody, because
Speaker 1: my belief was that everyone is entitled to the best defense.
Speaker 1: So you know, I've represented a few people with it
Speaker 1: and say anything defense and mental illness. Like the lady
Speaker 1: who killed her baby, I thought she should ride in hell.
Speaker 1: When I read the headlines and the paper mother kills
Speaker 1: her baby and the way she did it, I'm saying
Speaker 1: this woman should ride in hell. When I met her
Speaker 1: at jail on a Friday after her family came and
Speaker 1: said they interviewed six lawyers and they decided to come
Speaker 1: back and hire me. I first thought, y'all trying to
Speaker 1: set me up because she's a white girl. You're gonna
Speaker 1: hide this black lawyer and I'm join in screw up,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna be blaming me and everybody's gonna be attacked. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you this figure here. So they wrote
Speaker 1: the check, said okay, and shucks, I didn't. I didn't
Speaker 1: get that done. So I'm stuck with this case. So
Speaker 1: I had got to go down to jail and see her.
Speaker 1: On a Friday night. I a to him about eleven
Speaker 1: o'clock and I tell my wife at the time, she's
Speaker 1: not a criminal, she's not a killer. This girl needs
Speaker 1: some help. You follow me, and she did. She did.
Speaker 1: I grew to understand what postpartom psychosis is, and my
Speaker 1: wife later told me, you know, I had post bottom.
Speaker 1: I didn't have psychosis, but I found out women who
Speaker 1: have babies have post bottom. They don't have all that
Speaker 1: love and good feeling and fuzzy for babies all the time.
Speaker 1: Sometimes they want to put them in that oven. It
Speaker 1: turned hot. You follow me, I do. In essence, what
Speaker 1: I think Milton is saying is that most of the
Speaker 1: people he defends, even when they've done heinous things, they're
Speaker 1: human beings. They're not all sociopaths or monsters. They're people
Speaker 1: who themselves have suffered or are suffering in some way
Speaker 1: and trying to play the cards that they're dealt as
Speaker 1: best they can. And maybe, you know, maybe folks from
Speaker 1: these neighborhoods aren't as eloquent. And I studied about this
Speaker 1: as you are. But they know, right, I mean, kids
Speaker 1: who are growing up in Ramona Gardens in the early nineties,
Speaker 1: they know that the system is not set up to
Speaker 1: favor them. Right, that's right, they right, that's right. They
Speaker 1: know cops don't respect them. They know cops don't treat
Speaker 1: white kids and Beverly Hills or bell Air like they
Speaker 1: treat them. You follow me and make them these fucking
Speaker 1: these two judges in Pennsylvania that were kids for cash
Speaker 1: juvenile justice, that's right. Yeah, they're selling these kids for
Speaker 1: a traffic citation, six months in juvenile hall, in prisons,
Speaker 1: six months, little kids they were putting in the criminal
Speaker 1: justice system, and nobody doing anything about it. The clerks,
Speaker 1: the bailiffs, they got kids. You're sitting there letting this
Speaker 1: happen because it's not your son. He's skin is different
Speaker 1: than yours, and you're letting these judges make millions of
Speaker 1: dollars evilly doing evil. Yeah, but then these kids in
Speaker 1: prison for money, and this is how how old is
Speaker 1: Joe Morgan. When you met him in the nineties, you
Speaker 1: counted up because I don't remember birthday, but met him
Speaker 1: in ninety nine four, Morgan would have been in his
Speaker 1: early to mid sixties. Yeah, he should have been taken
Speaker 1: care of more and he which means that he came
Speaker 1: of age in a time in Los Angeles where I
Speaker 1: mean by you know, we see it in the movie
Speaker 1: right with the zoot Suit Riots, right, I don't know
Speaker 1: if you've seen recently, yes, sir, and I always go
Speaker 1: back to, you know, during the zoot Suits Riots, the
Speaker 1: Marie I'm sorry, the army guys in the sellers, they
Speaker 1: were beating Chicanos and then they said, well, let's get
Speaker 1: we beat the black too, and they started beating them
Speaker 1: and there was It's in It's in the l A
Speaker 1: Times because I used it in a lawsuit against the
Speaker 1: Sea of Santa Monica for racial discrimination and voter rights
Speaker 1: violation that we won. And part of it was the
Speaker 1: research of the zoot Suit days with Chicanos. And believe
Speaker 1: it or not, the brothers and the Chicanos got together
Speaker 1: over in Compton, I think it was or what and
Speaker 1: they entice them out because they had heard that there's
Speaker 1: gonna be three bus loads of sailors coming to beat
Speaker 1: the black's ass over and watch. I think it was.
Speaker 1: And so they got together. It isn't you can research
Speaker 1: it in the paper. They got together and they developed
Speaker 1: attacked it. And they had two or three guys out
Speaker 1: there going f you, f you come on them, and
Speaker 1: they got them to charge them and come around the corner.
Speaker 1: They were they they they've done away with a couple
Speaker 1: of lovers. Yeah, it'sn't written about. And what I'm saying, man,
Speaker 1: how do we lose that coalition? How do we lose
Speaker 1: that support for one another brother because we got the
Speaker 1: same enemy. Why they why you're letting them put us
Speaker 1: against each other? Well, certainly part of it is that
Speaker 1: you get sent to prison. You described it yourself. You said,
Speaker 1: first the white people are the black people are on
Speaker 1: the workout station and rotate. So you separate them like that,
Speaker 1: and then you go back to society. And those are
Speaker 1: the kinds of norms they're taking with your used to.
Speaker 1: I did some cases out of Corkran during the gladiator
Speaker 1: war that they had where six people got killed out
Speaker 1: in the yard because they had the gladiator fights and
Speaker 1: they would pit black against Mexican and and and brother
Speaker 1: against brother, and they would kill each other and the
Speaker 1: guards will be up there betting on it in the towers,
Speaker 1: the glad looking up. And I represented two families who
Speaker 1: had lost young men to that gladiator war. You're following me,
Speaker 1: And we learned that I never forget. One of the
Speaker 1: cases was we got the research the discovery on uh
Speaker 1: the use how many times they had used the rifle
Speaker 1: to shoot down in the yard. And on one occasion
Speaker 1: the guy the guard had propped the rifle up against
Speaker 1: something in it slid off and Paul went down and
Speaker 1: ricochet and shot it. And they did an investigation said
Speaker 1: that was a justified shooting. Oh my god. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: how they write it off. Man. It's like you said,
Speaker 1: it's it shouldn't be surprising, but it's still, you know,
Speaker 1: it's still You're like Jesus when it never ends. After
Speaker 1: the break, we'll hear more about Joe Morgan the human
Speaker 1: being and try to better understand whatever James almost got
Speaker 1: right and wrong with j D in American Me. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to More Than a Movie. I'm Alex Flomto, and
Speaker 1: we're talking to criminal and civil attorney Milton Grimes, who
Speaker 1: represented Mexican mafia member Joe Morgan. I asked Milton how
Speaker 1: he thinks Joe Morgan should be thought of by the
Speaker 1: general public as a human being, whether he was Croatian
Speaker 1: or Portuguese or whatever. We all here with this one throughty. Second,
Speaker 1: the skin that defines who we are for some dumbass
Speaker 1: reason that makes no sense, and we are used. That's
Speaker 1: used to keep us from getting to know each other.
Speaker 1: But but culturally speaking here in l A, you know,
Speaker 1: two is the year of American me comes out. It's
Speaker 1: also the year of the So can you talk to
Speaker 1: you know, there's young people maybe hopefully that are listening
Speaker 1: to this. Can you can you tell them how that
Speaker 1: that period was different in l A than it is
Speaker 1: now or what it was like? Just what was that
Speaker 1: period like in l A. And that can be as
Speaker 1: simple as you know your client, right, starting with your client,
Speaker 1: Rodney King. It's um, you know, I was probably been
Speaker 1: practicing law then almost twenty years. I started in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy four, and um, you know it was kind of
Speaker 1: a good time for me. I was doing well, uh
Speaker 1: in the practice of law, and uh, I see the
Speaker 1: Rodney King beating a friend of mine calls said, hey, man,
Speaker 1: this guy got beat by the police and he's on
Speaker 1: parole and they're calling the inn word and died out.
Speaker 1: And I said, hey, bro, I really don't have time
Speaker 1: for it because I'm in the middle of this trial.
Speaker 1: His name was Ron Jesse. Used to play football with
Speaker 1: the Rams. He was a wide receiver and he's ad. Man,
Speaker 1: this guy is you know, he's a friend of mine,
Speaker 1: nephew and he got beat pretty bad grimes. Can you
Speaker 1: help him? I said no, I'm in trial, man, I'm
Speaker 1: in trial with this brother on a double hummer side.
Speaker 1: We're facing the death penalty. And he caressed out the
Speaker 1: judge yesterday and because of the jury selection we were
Speaker 1: going through and the eight excuse the only black possible juror,
Speaker 1: he called the judge of racist redneck road wearing who
Speaker 1: would wearing one to be Grand Wizard of the Clucuse Clan,
Speaker 1: buckethead motherfucker. I said, I don't have time to deal
Speaker 1: with another case right now, because I got to deal
Speaker 1: with this crazy man. You follow me, and so he said, man,
Speaker 1: but you know, I said, no, brother, I can't do it.
Speaker 1: You know. Plus I get I see those cases all
Speaker 1: the time and how we gonna prove that? They called
Speaker 1: him the end word. And so I go home after
Speaker 1: I leave the office and I'm changing clothes to go
Speaker 1: to the gym, and I see this but the news
Speaker 1: on them. Wow, they're beating this brothermdam. They got to
Speaker 1: stop that ship in South Africa. This is unreal how
Speaker 1: they do us? And that bus is too big to
Speaker 1: be in South Africa. It's not one of them too.
Speaker 1: That's the Oh, that's the key. That's what he called
Speaker 1: me about. I saw this shaking almost something. That's that's history.
Speaker 1: We finally caught the lock Ness monster. You follow me,
Speaker 1: that beating that we never could prove, and the N
Speaker 1: word that we never could prove. We tell brothers may
Speaker 1: have brother but what am gonna do? You got five
Speaker 1: cops that didn't happen that you tripped, you understand, and
Speaker 1: got that dolldom broke them on. So what we But
Speaker 1: now we got the lock next monster. So it was like, wow,
Speaker 1: that was a ninety one. Finally got it. So when
Speaker 1: I called him back and said, hey, hey, I am
Speaker 1: not going to the gym. We need I need this case.
Speaker 1: This is my if I was to design a case
Speaker 1: in law school, it would be this case. This is
Speaker 1: the epitome of our civil rights here. And I called
Speaker 1: him back and he said, let me get back to you.
Speaker 1: Coming back, said King's mama said she don't want you,
Speaker 1: Johnny Cochrane associated with it because she don't want it
Speaker 1: to be a race case. I go, at leastoud have
Speaker 1: got the asshipping there, mama, that dog. So that was
Speaker 1: my reaction, I'm being honest. So I didn't hear about
Speaker 1: it until after the civil disorder. I heard about it
Speaker 1: and heard from him in September of ninety two. But
Speaker 1: that verdict and see me, Valley man Um, it felt
Speaker 1: like a mu had kicked me in my stomach, you know,
Speaker 1: like back in the country we always were warn don't
Speaker 1: go behind that horseboard, don't go behind that mule, kick
Speaker 1: you kill you. And it felt like I had been
Speaker 1: kicked in the stomach. You know. It was painful. So
Speaker 1: I understand the young people involved. Do you remember anything
Speaker 1: about Edward James almost from that time. I only remember
Speaker 1: that he had to go into seclusion because there was
Speaker 1: alleged threats on his life. A couple of people were
Speaker 1: killed because of the production of that movie depicting Joe
Speaker 1: borgan in a non complementary fashion, or saying that certain
Speaker 1: things happened to him that they didn't appreciate it appreciate
Speaker 1: because it challenged his manhood and his sexual preference or sexuality,
Speaker 1: or maybe he was a victim portrayed. I don't remember
Speaker 1: the exact portrayal of what happened there, but it was like,
Speaker 1: that can't happen, that's not a that's a no. Note,
Speaker 1: that didn't happen. He would have never been the leader
Speaker 1: of our organization if that was the case, And so
Speaker 1: that's not true. I mean, look, homophobia still exists, just
Speaker 1: as racism still exists. But what was the culture around
Speaker 1: that kind of an accusation in those kinds of neighborhoods
Speaker 1: here in l A. At that time, I believe in
Speaker 1: the African American community, homosexuality was beginning to because of
Speaker 1: the game members coming back from prison to be more
Speaker 1: of an accepted uh uh devior for whatever better description.
Speaker 1: There is behavior or a different behavior than it was
Speaker 1: allegedly was in the Latino Hispanic community. Uh but I
Speaker 1: understand now is accepted more so in the Hispanic community. Um,
Speaker 1: but I probably didn't recognize that homosexuality was as much
Speaker 1: of a taboo in the Hispanic community to I learned
Speaker 1: that that was one of the primers of motivators for
Speaker 1: why that movie was rejected. I mean, it's it seems
Speaker 1: to me like Edward James almost in American was almost
Speaker 1: using rape as like a scared straight tactic, right like
Speaker 1: he he said he made that movie to basically end
Speaker 1: gang violence, to stop kids the cycle of violence, kids
Speaker 1: joining games. Do you think, like, does that work? I
Speaker 1: don't think that would have been justifiable cause for doing that.
Speaker 1: You can't take a man out of character for something
Speaker 1: that's serious. And I know Hollywood justify based on a
Speaker 1: true story with their creativeness in presenting their true story,
Speaker 1: but I think it's a if you're gonna put the
Speaker 1: true story or alleged that that's what it is, you
Speaker 1: should stick as close to that as possible. And whatever
Speaker 1: your personal or goal is, or your personal or acceptance
Speaker 1: of things are, I don't think you should portrayed that
Speaker 1: to someone if it doesn't have some quantum quality of
Speaker 1: truth to it. Okay, I don't have any problem with
Speaker 1: gays or home sexuality at all. I'm pretty sure and
Speaker 1: much better than my old age than I was maybe
Speaker 1: it used to bother me. If I saw two men
Speaker 1: kissing two women kissing, I'm gonna damn, that looks good.
Speaker 1: So that's just my bringing up. But people grow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my bringing up, my process and things. You follow me?
Speaker 1: Uh so my kids? You know, I have relatives who
Speaker 1: have same sex relationships. What's up? You know? Fine? Fine,
Speaker 1: it's funny how I didn't know I could be that
Speaker 1: easily accepted something that close. Sure, but it's okay. Do
Speaker 1: you think that, like is does that actually work? Do
Speaker 1: people actually decide not to commit crimes because they're afraid? No,
Speaker 1: it's no more of a deterrent than it is for
Speaker 1: killing somebody in a robberie or something, because they ain't
Speaker 1: thinking about getting caught, and the death penalty is not
Speaker 1: a deterrent. So almost sexuality show is not a deterrent, right,
Speaker 1: and all the research will tell you that. Do you
Speaker 1: think that that a movie like American Micke get made today?
Speaker 1: We're in a time where there's notice difference in truth
Speaker 1: in a lie. We're living in a time in our
Speaker 1: history where a big lie becomes the truth. Uh. I
Speaker 1: want to say we have more transparency now and more
Speaker 1: determination to present the truth and we don't have to
Speaker 1: hide behind pretending that's the truth, believe it or not.
Speaker 1: I'm a lawyer, but I take my reputation, my credibility,
Speaker 1: my integrity is based on me being believed, believe it
Speaker 1: or not by judges, jurors, and other attorneys and people.
Speaker 1: I really guard that that movie probably could be made today,
Speaker 1: but I think that there would be more of an
Speaker 1: immediate attack on the incorrectness of it and the inaccuracy
Speaker 1: of it in the lie of it, I think, rather
Speaker 1: than as letting it go because James almost is a
Speaker 1: great actor and he's achieved in Academy Award or something
Speaker 1: to whatever, and uh that that movie would be more
Speaker 1: challenged today because of its inaccurate portrayal of the truth,
Speaker 1: because we're more conscious about the lives that presented to
Speaker 1: us today. On our next episode, I'm speaking with a
Speaker 1: real Angelino, a Southeast l A native, Eric Galindo. In
Speaker 1: addition to being a great journalist and podcaster, he's a
Speaker 1: screenwriter who specifically writes about his experience as a Chicano
Speaker 1: growing up in l A. I remember specifically arguments and
Speaker 1: playground about like is that real? But they're really green
Speaker 1: light of celebrity, Like, how are they even gonna get
Speaker 1: to him? He's so famous, Like he's not you know,
Speaker 1: he's not fucking on Florence. And the thing about like
Speaker 1: the kids is like you hear the stories from like
Speaker 1: your older siblings, you know, and like they become like
Speaker 1: that game of Telephone where you know, by the end
Speaker 1: it's like Edward James almost it's actually fucking a gangster. Now.
Speaker 1: That's on the next episode of More Than a Movie American.
Speaker 1: More Than a Movie American Me is a production of
Speaker 1: Exile Content Studios in partnership with I Hearts, Michael Podcast Network,
Speaker 1: and Trojan Horse Media. The show is produced by me
Speaker 1: Alex Fometo at Angry Yuka on the Internets, and our
Speaker 1: senior producer is Nigel Dora. Our executive producers are Rose Red,
Speaker 1: Nando Vila and Kareem Taps. Production assistance from Sabine Jansen
Speaker 1: and Octavio and Stella Emmett. Mixing and sound designed by
Speaker 1: the waterlo Albornos. Our executive producers at I Heart are
Speaker 1: Gisel Bansas and Arlene Santana. For more podcasts, listen to
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows,