1 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: Parker County, Texas is one of those places where you 2 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: can't get away from the people. You heard, the type 3 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: of claustrophobic atmosphere that comes of such a tight knit 4 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: community where everybody knows everybody's business, where a sidelong glance 5 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: in the grocery store or a bless your Heart carries 6 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: more weight than outsiders might register. And for families at 7 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: the heart of this murder case, as time passed and 8 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: law enforcement was no closer to solving Vincent and Shelley's murders, 9 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:57,959 Speaker 1: it all seemed to enhance the pain both families felt. 10 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: Did you and Ronnie ever get with Vincent's family and 11 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: talk about stuff? No, what happened between the two of you? Anything? 12 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: Okay? One day I had been to the police station, 13 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 2: and then I came over to Debbie's, which she was 14 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 2: my Bluebird assistant. She was the lady that the girl 15 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 2: stayed with when we left. So for some reason, they 16 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 2: show up glad to meet you, and the first thing 17 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 2: the mama says to me is Shelley had a cloud 18 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 2: of death over her. What she says, Shelley had a 19 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 2: cloud that has had always had a cloud of death 20 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 2: over her when she would come to our home, she 21 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 2: would have that dark cloud of death on her. 22 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: Those remarks stunned Janetta. 23 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: So then she went into telling me, and there's two 24 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 2: things in my head. Okay with this, and that's the 25 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: way I've always thought, But there's two things I've never 26 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: wanted to hear. Is that she was tortured. 27 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 3: She was. 28 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: In my head, I don't know. I just have this 29 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 2: vision of they're out there and they're just aggravating her, 30 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 2: just you know, like pushing her, and outside of the car. 31 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 2: And they told me they were outside of the car 32 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 2: in eighty three. The police, Yes, they told me they 33 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:41,839 Speaker 2: were outside of the car. 34 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: That strange conversation with Vincent's mother started playing like a 35 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: movie reel in Janetta's mind. Suddenly there were all these 36 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: horrific images in her head of what might have happened 37 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: to Shelley. So she contacted the Weatherford police. 38 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 2: And I've told them I want to see some pictures. 39 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 2: I want to see some pictures. And he said, I 40 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: got a picture of her shoes. You want to see 41 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 2: her shoes. So he showed me her shoes. Her shoes 42 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 2: were clean, and her clothes were Maddy, How. 43 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: Could Shelley's tennis shoes be clean and her clothes muddy 44 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: if she was at some point outside the car in 45 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: the rain. If you recall from the previous episode, Vincent 46 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: Senior's brother Raymond, said he saw an imprint in the 47 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: ground next to the side of the car where Shelley 48 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: was found sitting inside the vehicle, and he believed Shelley's 49 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: head had made that indentation. 50 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 2: And then that brings up another whole subject. They had 51 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: a dedication to a bench at the police station for 52 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 2: Shelley and Vincent. So as Ronnie and I were leaving 53 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 2: after all ceremony and thing was over, as this guy, 54 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 2: deputy come running out and no it wasn't deputy, it 55 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: was the chief. Then he come running out and handed 56 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: was going to hand me Shelley's clothes, and my brother 57 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: stopped him. He said, you are not giving those to her. 58 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 2: You're not giving those no, And so I did not 59 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 2: know that's what was going on. So my brother those 60 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 2: clothes had been at his house since that day. Some 61 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: people are saying they were never there, but well, you know, 62 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: I don't know then. I don't know what he did 63 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 2: with them. But of course he told me several times. 64 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 2: I've got him, They're okay. 65 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: The idea that the Weatherford Police would give clothing from 66 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: a murder victim in an ongoing open murder investigation back 67 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: to the victim's family is fundamentally ridiculous. Not only would 68 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: it be insensitive, but as far as evidence goes completely incompetent. 69 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: Even if they were done lifting any trace evidence or 70 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: potential DNA from the clothing, there would be prosecution and 71 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: chain of custody issues to consider. I asked current lieutenant 72 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: in the Weatherford PD, Johnny Qualls, if he could confirm 73 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: the clothing was given back to the family. He said 74 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: he had heard the same thing, but had no idea 75 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: if it was true. I asked where this evidence is now. 76 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: He didn't know. The families of Shelley and Vincent Junior 77 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: decided to have a joint viewing of the bodies in 78 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: town at a local funeral home two separate rooms, Shelley 79 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: in one, Vincent in the other. Same time, people could 80 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: walk in, pay their respects, offer condolences to the families, 81 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: sit and reflect before leaving. Tell me about that what happens? 82 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 2: Okay, my girlfriend, we were outside. There was two guys 83 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 2: that walks in and one had a black cowboy hat on. 84 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 2: I saw my brother and he asked this one boy. 85 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 2: He went down and he came back, and my brother 86 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 2: stopped him. He said something about him, He said something 87 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: about him, you know, And so he stopped him and 88 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 2: he said, did you know Shelley and Vincent? And he 89 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 2: said he just kind of looked at him and walked off. 90 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: And the other guy came from Vincent and he said 91 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 2: that they met up at the top, kind of just 92 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: shook head and left. 93 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: I spoke to multiple people who were at the viewing, 94 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: and they all reported seeing the same two men dressed 95 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: tip to toe in cowboy garb, stetson's boots, wranglers. They 96 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: walked in, went up to the bodies, did not kneel, 97 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: crossed themselves, offer condolences, or say anything to anyone. Instead, 98 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: they took a mental picture of the bodies, as if 99 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: making sure the kids were dead, and walked out the 100 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: front door together. And yet that wasn't the end of it. 101 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: Something else happened after they walked out of the funeral home, 102 00:07:55,840 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: something quite bizarre. In fact, I. 103 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 2: Bet it wasn't thirty minutes until my girlfriend and her 104 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 2: husband and everybody were outside and she came in and 105 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: she said, Johnny, the church is on fire. The church 106 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: is on fire. Said what she said, The church is 107 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: on fire, and she said, this black truck when it 108 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: started being on fire, this black truck come flying by. 109 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: Others reported to me they saw those same two men 110 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: walk across the street and into the church just before 111 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: the fire started. What do you think that was? 112 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 4: I don't know. 113 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 2: To me, it's gotten the light, sending a message. You know, 114 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 2: we did it. 115 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: There you are. Everyone else felt the same way. The 116 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: two men who came to the viewing and left abruptly 117 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: were the same men who started the church fire. Newspaper 118 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: accounts later support the chaotic scene that night and the fire. 119 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: The message most came away with afterward was leave it alone, 120 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: let it be, go on with your lives and forget 121 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: about this. 122 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 2: But also there was a fire start at Debbie's house 123 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: in her back like in her back room. 124 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: You've heard from Debbie earlier in the podcast, the neighbor 125 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: who was watching Shelley and her sister that weekend of 126 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: the murders. When was this? 127 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 2: This was during all of the funeral after all? 128 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: Love that really? 129 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I kind of at that point, I just 130 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 2: I kind of stayed away from Debbie because I didn't 131 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 2: want any problems for her. 132 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: The fire at the church and fire at Debbie's was 133 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: only the beginning. There were several more suspicious fires in 134 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: town over the next several weeks. 135 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 2: They set a fire at some house. They tell me 136 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 2: I haven't seen it. They tell me that there was 137 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: a fireproof box there that had a note in it 138 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 2: saying you're getting too close to the cauliflower case. 139 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: Previously on paper ghosts, it. 140 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 3: Was to me it was a premeditated murderer. 141 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 5: It was playing. 142 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 2: He couldn't have been in a long place at the 143 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 2: long time. 144 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 4: They pulled me in for murder, and then they also 145 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 4: pulled my old brother in murder. 146 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: They pulled you in from murder for who's murder for 147 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: those kids. 148 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 6: I know it's going to throw a loop, but I 149 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 6: kind of feel that her father, Ronnie Cauliflyer, was involved 150 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 6: in it, or at least knew of something going on. 151 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 6: I've tried contacting him through his daughter, called, left messages, 152 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 6: text message, Facebook. I can't get him to call back. 153 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 6: My dad always with his brother, he would always say 154 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 6: had he put it, I leave you two to one 155 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 6: that he's involved some form or fashion. Is what my 156 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 6: dad would say. 157 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: My name is. I'm William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist 158 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: and the New York Times bestselling author of dozens of 159 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: true crime books. This is season five of Paper Ghosts. 160 00:11:43,160 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: The Texas Team Murders. Cold case investigation involves various stages. 161 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: In the early days, you collect information and try not 162 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: to allow any of it to steer you in a 163 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: particular direction. Talk to people, Listen, follow up. Match what 164 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: you are hearing against the known evidence. Allowing people to 165 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: tell their stories can bring the truth to the surface 166 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: like a sunrise, slow and steady. There had been at 167 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: one time some tension between Ronnie Colliflower and Debbie Billingsley, 168 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: and to this day they still do not speak. Ronnie 169 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: seemed to blame Debbie for allowing Shelley out that night, 170 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: when in truth, Janetta had been the one to give 171 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: the green light. Still, Debbie was now connected to these 172 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: kids forever, and according to Janetta, as you just heard 173 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: in the opening of the episode, somebody had set fire 174 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: to Debbie's house. Debbie knew one of the first investigators 175 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: in the case, Raymond Pritchard. The day of the murders, 176 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: Prichard and another investigator stopped by to fill her in 177 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,719 Speaker 1: on what had happened and to see if Debbie had 178 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: any information. 179 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 4: And they came in and he sat down and he said, Debbie, 180 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 4: he said, we've got some really bad news. He said, 181 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 4: Shelley and Vincent's bodies were found this morning and they're 182 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 4: both deceased. And I couldn't grasp that, I guess, and 183 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 4: I just looked at him. You know, I was real 184 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 4: confused because I didn't understand how they could just be 185 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:07,719 Speaker 4: gone like that. So I told him everything we had 186 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 4: done the night before, and he proceeded to tell me 187 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 4: that Vincent's father was the one that found him. And 188 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 4: then later that day, Johnetta called me and all she 189 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 4: kept saying was Debbie, you have to help me find her. 190 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 4: And I said what can I do? And she said, 191 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 4: can you come out here to my house? So I 192 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 4: went out there and she just kept telling me she's 193 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 4: sitting in the bedroom and she said. She took hold 194 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 4: of my hands and she said, you got to help 195 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 4: me find her. She said, I can't lose her. You 196 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 4: have to help me find her. And I guess that 197 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 4: was her way of just trying to kind of deal 198 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 4: with it, and some other people came in and I 199 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 4: stepped out into the hallway and Ronnie came in and 200 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 4: told me that I needed to leave. So I didn't 201 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 4: question anything. I just left. 202 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: Ronnie Colliflower had been in and out of the house 203 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: that morning, one would assume dealing with all that was 204 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: going on. In the last episode, you heard Troy Nichelis, 205 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: Shelley's cousin, say that his father, Ronnie's brother, was suspicious 206 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: of Ronnie. He gave no specific reason, but Troy's father 207 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: thought Ronnie knew more than he was sharing. While Debbie 208 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:41,239 Speaker 1: was at the Collieflower house that day, Ronnie came home. 209 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 4: And Ronnie came in and told me that I needed 210 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 4: to leave. So I didn't question anything. I just left. 211 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: And how was Ronnie when he came in? 212 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 4: He was angry. I stepped out into the hallway. He 213 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 4: come in the hallway from another room and he said, 214 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 4: I need you to leave, and I said, okay, I 215 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 4: can do that, and he said, no, I want you 216 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 4: out of my house now. And that's when it dawned 217 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 4: on me. He did not know that she had given 218 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 4: me permission for Shelley to go. I never said anything. 219 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 4: I just left and that was too hard of a 220 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 4: time to try to explain anything, and so I just left. 221 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 4: And I don't know exactly when he found out that 222 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 4: she had told me it was okay. 223 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: Debbie took on the responsibility of being Shelley's adult babysitter 224 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: for that weekend and could make the call if she 225 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: chose to. Ronnie Will agreed to have Debbie watch the 226 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: kids knew this. Of course, Debbie was not about to 227 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: miss the funeral just because Ronnie had an issue with her, 228 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: so she went anyway. While she was up at the 229 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: casket paying her respects viewing Shelley's body, something struck her 230 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: about the condition of Shelley's remains. 231 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 4: Shelley had scratches all over her arms and her rot side. 232 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 4: I didn't see the left side, but both arms were scratched, 233 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 4: her hands were scratched, and her right side was scratched 234 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 4: up on her neck. And I questioned Johnetta. I said, 235 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 4: where did these marks come from? And she said, I 236 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 4: don't know. They won't tell me anything. 237 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: In speaking with Janetta, it's clear she loved Debbie and 238 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: had no issue with her. After all, Debbie had fallen 239 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: on her sword during that traumatizing period right after the murders, 240 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: taking responsibility for allowing Shelley out on the date, never 241 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,719 Speaker 1: revealing to Ronnie that Janetta had given the okay. 242 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 4: And we stayed in touch for a while, and then 243 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 4: later on she just kind of like cut all ties 244 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 4: with me. And I don't know if it's because she 245 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 4: couldn't face Ronnie to tell him that she had said 246 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 4: it was okay. I don't know, and so I just 247 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 4: let it go. And then the next thing I knew, 248 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 4: she had left and moved away from Weatherford and her 249 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 4: and Ronnie had completely split up. 250 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: When I said earlier, bizarre things began to happen. It 251 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: wasn't just those fires and Ronnie acting suspicious in those 252 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: early days after the murders, and what were people saying. 253 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 4: I talked to the detectives multiple times. A couple of 254 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 4: other guys came up told me they were with the 255 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 4: Weatherford Police Department and needed to speak to me. They 256 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 4: showed me a badge. I let them in, We talked, 257 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 4: I told them what I knew. 258 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: They left in the aftermath, BE contacted the investigator she 259 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: had been speaking with at the Weatherford Police Department to 260 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 1: find out why they had sent different investigators to her house, 261 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: and he. 262 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 4: Says, Debbie, those are not policemen. He says, don't talk 263 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 4: to them anymore. Then another guy came said he was 264 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 4: with the Texas Rangers, had a badge, and I believed him. 265 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: Debbie had given Shelley fifty cents, two quarters and a 266 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: piece of paper that night. She had written her phone 267 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: number and address on the paper, explaining to Shelley that 268 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: if she ran into any trouble, call and Debbie would 269 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: come right out to get her and not ask any questions. 270 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: Debbie says, the Weatherford Police Department found those quarters, but 271 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: the piece of paper with her address and phone number 272 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: was miss. 273 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 4: I got very scared, and especially knowing that someone had 274 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 4: taken that piece of paper with my name and phone 275 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 4: number on it, because the corners were still in Shelley's pocket, 276 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 4: but the paper was gone. So we moved from where 277 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 4: we were, and then about a year later we completely 278 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 4: left Weatherford. I didn't feel safe there. 279 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: What were people saying around town about who could have 280 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: done this? 281 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 4: Oh, there was multiple, multiple scenarios. The talk around town 282 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 4: was Shelley and Vincent come up on a drug deal 283 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 4: and got killed out of way Another rumor was that 284 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 4: the one that killed them, they were the one dealing 285 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 4: the drugs and they killed them, that they were killed 286 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 4: at a different location, their bodies brought back where they 287 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 4: were found and their bodies were positioned in the car there. 288 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 4: And another rumor was that Vincent killed her and then 289 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 4: killed hisself. 290 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 3: You know. 291 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 4: Another one was there was infatuated with Shelley and wanted 292 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 4: her and he wasn't gonna let Vincent have her because 293 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 4: Vincent was Mexican. That was the words they used back then. 294 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 4: There was just all kinds of rumors and at different 295 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 4: points it kind of, you know, like you didn't know 296 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 4: what to believe because the police weren't telling me anything. 297 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, it wasn't too long after 298 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 4: the police, the two detectives that were working that case 299 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 4: were taken off of it and moved to different One 300 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 4: was let go and one was moved to the probation department. 301 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: And why do you think that was? 302 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 4: I think because they knew who did it and they 303 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 4: weren't going to let anything come of it. Weldon Kennedy 304 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 4: on a meatpacking plant there in Weatherford, and they used 305 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 4: to traffic a lot of drugs and people from Mexico 306 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 4: into Weatherford, and from Weatherford up through Oklahoma and on out, 307 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 4: and they weren't going to let anything become of it. 308 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 4: And that's what really gave me credence to believe that 309 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 4: had something to do with it. I never had anything 310 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 4: put in my hand that said, here's the proof. But 311 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 4: as time went on and more that was talked and 312 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 4: more that was said, I do believe it. I do 313 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 4: believe that both had something to do with their deaths. 314 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 4: Not going to sit here and say that they pulled 315 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 4: the triggers or they did what. I don't know that. 316 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 4: I had gone over to the sister's house with a 317 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 4: friend of mine one time. This was years later. We 318 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 4: went in his sister made a cup coffee and we 319 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 4: were sitting around talking and came in and sat down 320 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 4: at the table, and I knew who he was, but 321 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 4: he didn't know who I was. I told my friend, 322 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 4: I said it's time for us to go. I just 323 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 4: couldn't be in the same room with him. She didn't understand, 324 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 4: and so when we left, I told her what the 325 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 4: deal was and she says, oh, no, she wouldn't have 326 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 4: had any anything to do with that. There's no way 327 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 4: get out in his house for six months to a 328 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 4: year after those kids were killed, because he was too 329 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 4: afraid to come out. And I said, yeah, he was 330 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 4: afraid because he was part of it. Oh no, no, no, no, 331 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 4: he's totally innocent. And I said, well, I don't believe that, 332 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 4: but that's what his sister had told her, and so 333 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 4: she fullheartedly believed that. 334 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: Debbie ran into the guy whose name I censored, the 335 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: same one you've heard many of my sources mentioned. Not 336 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: long after that visit to his sister's house. 337 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 4: We went back by there one time to drop some 338 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 4: stuff off, and I didn't get out and go in, 339 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 4: but come out to the in the garage, to the van, 340 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 4: and he says, Debbie, he said, I have to tell 341 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 4: you I didn't have anything to do with Shelley and 342 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 4: Vincent's murder. He said, I didn't have anything to do 343 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 4: with it. I am totally innocent. I didn't have anything 344 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 4: to do with it. And he just kept saying that 345 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 4: over and over, and he started crying, and he says, 346 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 4: you have to believe me. I didn't have anything to 347 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 4: do with it. And I said, if you didn't, who did? 348 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 4: Do you know who did? He never would say he 349 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 4: knew or he did not know. I said, if you 350 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 4: didn't do it or have anything to do with it, 351 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 4: who did? And he never would answer me, So I 352 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 4: don't know if he knew and was just afraid for 353 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 4: his own luck. I don't know. 354 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: Ronnie COYLEI Flower, was not someone I would even consider 355 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 1: a person of interest in what is a growing list 356 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 1: of suspects. Why would Ronnie, if he knew anything, agree 357 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: to hire mel Mitchell, a private investigator, to look into 358 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: the murders all these years later. At face value, that 359 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: would make no sense if he was involved, Not to mention, 360 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: he loved Shelley and had brought her up as his 361 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: own daughter from the time she was a toddler. But 362 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: I still needed to talk to Ronnie and ask questions 363 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: only he could answer. Several people had mentioned his brother 364 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 1: as someone I needed to look into, that his brother 365 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: had connections back to the names I have been censoring 366 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: in the podcast, and that his brother was the best 367 00:25:53,720 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: meth cook in the county. I don't believe Ronnie's brother 368 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: was ever a potential suspect, but he could have information 369 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: about the case, seeing that he knew all of the 370 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 1: main suspects very well. While I was in Weatherford. Ronnie 371 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 1: seemed to be circling me, showing up at various places 372 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,239 Speaker 1: I had been or coincidentally in the same area. I 373 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:29,719 Speaker 1: was mel Mitchell and Laurie Kates, the Facebook administrator of 374 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: the Justice page who had first reached out to me, 375 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: told me Ronnie was very hesitant, but he had finally 376 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: agreed to meet me at my hotel and allow me 377 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: to interview him. So I waited, and then I got this. 378 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 2: When I mentionaged you, you had a feeling that he 379 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 2: might back out. 380 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 4: Sure that he took off and his friend went out 381 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 4: the back to try to. 382 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 1: Get him, and he had already left his friends a lot. 383 00:26:59,320 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 7: What the call. 384 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: We don't understand, you know, we don't know he was 385 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 2: going to go with you and then. 386 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 5: He backed out. 387 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 8: Did tell his friends about meeting with you? What before 388 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 8: I'd even talked about it or came over there. 389 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 4: They said that he is said, well, he didn't he 390 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 4: didn't know what a podcast was. 391 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 8: And you know, was thinking about meeting. So hopefully it's 392 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 8: just because he had a few beers. 393 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 1: Maybe hopefully that's. 394 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 8: What it was. But anyways, I just wanted to let 395 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 8: you know that he staged. 396 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 5: People report to us that there were two individuals, two 397 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 5: males that came in. Yeah, I guess most people didn't recognize. 398 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 5: And one person went to Vincent's side and kind of 399 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 5: looked in on the casket. The other person went to 400 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 5: Shelley's side, looked in on the casket, and then kind 401 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 5: of met up in the middle. And people are kind 402 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 5: of looking at them, thinking okay, or they introduce themselves, 403 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 5: We're gonna say hi, like hey, we knew Shelley, we 404 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 5: knew Vincent. 405 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 8: But they didn't do any of that. 406 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 5: They just kind of whenever they're looked in the caskets 407 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 5: and kind of met in the middle and then left. 408 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: I met mel Mitchell one morning in front of the church, 409 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: which had been set on fire during the viewing of 410 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: Shelley and Vincent's bodies. We talked out front. I had 411 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: her go step by step through what she had found 412 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: out about the viewing. And those two cowboy characters seemingly 413 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: straight out of Central Casting, as if they had stepped 414 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: off the set of the iconic am see crime drama 415 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: Breaking Bad. 416 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 5: Apparently they kind of peeled out or sort of kind 417 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 5: of making a scene a little bit in front of 418 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 5: the funeral home and then sped off. So a lot 419 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 5: of people kind of felt that was off, more suspicious, 420 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 5: didn't know why they would act that way. Literally right 421 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 5: across the street, like you saw, just how closed that the. 422 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 8: Church and the funeral home are. 423 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 5: I mean, right there, someone set fire to that church 424 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 5: and it was It's in the newspaper, is Arson, and 425 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 5: so no one knows who set that fire. 426 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: It's kind of like a threat, right, So two cowboys 427 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: show up and then a church catches on fire. 428 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 8: I would think it'd be a long intimidation line. Sure. Absolutely. 429 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: As we talked outside, Mel decided to go into the 430 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: funeral home and ask if they kept records dating back 431 00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: to nineteen eighty three. Generally speaking, when the body is 432 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: prepared for a wake and funeral, the embalmber notes abnormalities 433 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: and details the condition of the body. Its standard practice 434 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: in the industry. Nearly everyone who had seen Shelley's body 435 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: that Mel and I had spoken to said the same thing. 436 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: The right side appeared to show evidence that Shelley had 437 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: been dragged through a brier patch, scratched and bruised. This 438 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: is significant in my view. If true, it could change 439 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: the entire dynamic of the motive a drug hit if 440 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: you will, that wrong place, wrong time motive would generally 441 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: be quick in execution, but if Shelley had been beaten 442 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: or dragged, it could point to a more sexual motive. 443 00:30:55,560 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: Stranger Still, that autopsy report left on the door step 444 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: of Shelley's cousin never mentions scratches or bruises on Shelley's body. 445 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: I'll be going through that report in a future episode, 446 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: but it's quite scant on any specific detail and seems 447 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: to tell only half the story. Even those attending the 448 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: view and were shocked to see how obvious it was 449 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: that Shelley's body had injuries on the right side of 450 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: her face and arms. Getting notes from the embomber might 451 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: clear it all up and give us some sort of 452 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: understanding of those alleged injuries on Shelley's body. As mel 453 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: went into the funeral home, well I waited outside that. 454 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 5: It was, But when the families reached out to them, 455 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 5: they told both families that all those reports were sent 456 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 5: over to the. 457 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 8: Sheriff's apartment or to Parker County, Okay. 458 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 5: So they're not able to get the reports from Emmy's 459 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 5: office because apparently they sent all the original copies of 460 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 5: the tops reports. 461 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: There are parts of this case, and I am unsure 462 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: if they can even be considered related or not. Born 463 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: strictly out of social media, the new age town hall 464 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: for spreading information and more destructively misinformation, I have learned 465 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: to take what is reported on social media about murder 466 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: investigations with a very skeptical eye. In the early days 467 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: of the case, there were three names synonymous with being 468 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: connected to the murders, accusations of which were generated by 469 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: town gossip and the rumor mill. It got so bad 470 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: several people took to the pages of the editorial section 471 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: of the local newspaper to voice their concerns over accusing 472 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: these men, whose names I have been censoring throughout simply 473 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: because they have never been charged in the case. I 474 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: asked Weatherford Police Department Lieutenant Johnny Qualls, the current cold 475 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:22,719 Speaker 1: case investigator looking into the murders, his thoughts about this, So, 476 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: how do you even begin to look at that? Because, 477 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: as you know, and I know, one of the worst 478 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: things about a cold case is all those rumors, especially 479 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: now with the Internet, So you get all of this 480 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: misinformation and you have to sift through it all to 481 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: find the facts right and I don't think record keeping 482 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: could have been that great in a town like small 483 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: town like Weatherford back then. So you have that element. 484 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: So how do you manage that? 485 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, you just have that. Well you just said it. 486 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 3: You know, you have to really focus in and hone 487 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 3: in on the facts, and you have it's almost it's, uh, 488 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 3: you know, we don't have the advantage of going back 489 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 3: in time and and making that a more organized operation. 490 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 3: That's not a knock on any of those folks. That's 491 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 3: a part of that either. It's just like we don't 492 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 3: we can't go back in time and and fix any 493 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 3: of that or preserve anything that maybe they didn't think 494 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 3: or know to to preserve back then it might be 495 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 3: important today. So you really have to have to set 496 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,359 Speaker 3: out on a fact finding mission of like, what are 497 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 3: the things that we know for sure, for sure or 498 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 3: at least fairly certain of that happened. And then uh, 499 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 3: and then you almost have to take your up I 500 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 3: don't know, maybe like a virtual reality and walk walk 501 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 3: your through itself through what that crime scene might have 502 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,959 Speaker 3: looked like, and consult with experts on you know, whether 503 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 3: it's splits ladder or various other things and sure out 504 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 3: their opinions, but also not discount you know, the investigative 505 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 3: opinions and those very too, by the way, you know, 506 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,040 Speaker 3: we have the general public with various opinions, and and 507 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 3: then we have various investigative opinions on top of that. 508 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 3: So but but go back and talk to we. We 509 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 3: did do that. We talked to you know, the original 510 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 3: case agent and various other people that were that there 511 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 3: were still around, that were still in that part. We 512 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 3: were fortunate that, you know, a lot of those folks 513 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 3: were still around and able to kind of fill in 514 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 3: some of those blank spots for us as far as 515 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 3: you know, well, what happened here, Why do we think 516 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 3: this happened here, or or why do we not know 517 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 3: this information? 518 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: So you found the victims, so there must have been 519 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: physical evidence obviously, and you have to determine if there 520 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 1: was a sexual assault or a rape right motive right. 521 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, none of that, none of that stuff has panned 522 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 3: out for us so far. And I was told, I 523 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 3: was told. I was told before I ever started looking 524 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 3: at it. When people learned that I was looking at 525 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 3: that case that and I say that I was that 526 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 3: it was a team effort that we were looking at 527 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 3: that case. 528 00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 8: Uh, there was. 529 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 3: A comment made to me. It is like, you know, 530 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 3: basically it was from someone that kind of knew the 531 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 3: state of all that stuff. I think, but you know 532 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 3: before I did. And it's like, good luck, you know, 533 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 3: so kind of like we shot. They do these uh 534 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 3: they do these little I don't remember exactly what all 535 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 3: goes into that equation, but they do these little solvability things, 536 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 3: you know. Uh, they looked at Okay, let's look at 537 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 3: all the cold cases we have. Let's do a solvability thing. Uh, 538 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 3: you know, give them a solvability score. And uh. And 539 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 3: I was told I never I never thought what those 540 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 3: seats looks like or anything like that. But I was 541 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,240 Speaker 3: told by someone that was a part of that process 542 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 3: that that the that that one, the double homicide of 543 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 3: those kids was just like essentially, they feel like. 544 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: It was solvable. So when Mel returned from speaking with 545 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,799 Speaker 1: the funeral home, she was optimistic. They did keep detailed 546 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: records and had those files from nineteen eighty three. What's more, 547 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: each embomber took copious, comprehensive notes regarding the condition of 548 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,839 Speaker 1: each body. The director of the place said she'd look 549 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: for the file and those notes and call Mel as 550 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: soon as she found them. That was hopeful those notes 551 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: could clear up some information and, depending on what was 552 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: in the report, answer several questions. As you heard in 553 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:36,760 Speaker 1: the last episode, after forty plus years, Shelley's autopsy report, 554 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,760 Speaker 1: which nobody had been able to obtain through the Freedom 555 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 1: of Information Act or by any other means, shows up 556 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: inside the storm door of Shelley's cousin. I wondered if 557 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: Mel had any idea where this autopsy report came from 558 00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: and why now? Also why was it given to Troy 559 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: nichelis Shelley's cousin, mainly because he was not one of 560 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: the relatives most invested in the case publicly? So how 561 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: do you get the autopsy report? Because records in this 562 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 1: case have been hard to come by, and all of 563 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: a sudden you get a copy of an autopsy report, 564 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: How do you get it? Where does it come from? 565 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:23,280 Speaker 1: Who dropped it off? 566 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 5: Ellwood had given me some documents before he passed. I 567 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 5: was able to briefly see him quickly after we'd spent 568 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 5: some extensive time together, you know, over the summer. First 569 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 5: with me, I spent quite a bit of time with him, 570 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 5: interviewing and talking with him, another time I went out 571 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,879 Speaker 5: there and saw him with Laurie. You know, I had 572 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,439 Speaker 5: a little bit of time to swing by and say 573 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 5: hello again, and that's when he was able to give 574 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 5: me a few documents. 575 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:52,399 Speaker 1: If you recall, Elwood Hohertz was the police chief at 576 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 1: the time of the murders. I asked mel about something 577 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: I had heard and if she had verified it with Hurts. 578 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,320 Speaker 1: Right after Shelley was murdered, there were undercover officer's place 579 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: in the high school. 580 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 5: So I had asked Elwood about that, because according to 581 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 5: some of Shelley's family, there was some officers placed in there, 582 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 5: possibly one to learn about narcotics that's going through the 583 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 5: high school. 584 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,320 Speaker 8: Also maybe to mail names. 585 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: Vincent's stepsister here of. 586 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 8: Ursus stepsister friend had just been murdered. 587 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 5: So when I asked Elwood about it, he had said that, yes, 588 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 5: he had had a couple because the narcotics was such 589 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 5: an extensive issue that they were trying to find out 590 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 5: where it's coming from, you know, any kind of information 591 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 5: that might get them to kind of quell a lot 592 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 5: of the narcotics. 593 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: Back then, nothing came out of it, no leads, no 594 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:58,400 Speaker 1: new names, no new information. I was getting the feeling 595 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: that this drug can sounded good on paper fit into 596 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: a possible murder narrative. But beyond rumor and speculation, there 597 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: wasn't much actual evidence of it, at least none that 598 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 1: I could see any merit in at the time. And 599 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: it needs to be said, two things can be true 600 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:26,360 Speaker 1: at the same time, so nothing can be discounted until 601 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: it is. For example, how many people eyewitnesses can put 602 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: the two most popular names connected to the murders by 603 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 1: rumor at the scene near the time we know the 604 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:45,400 Speaker 1: kids were up on Piss Hill. Mel gives me two names. 605 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 5: Of course, some of the people that were across the street. 606 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:53,839 Speaker 5: You know, they're talking about a vehicle that you know 607 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 5: may have appeared to be that way. But more importantly 608 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,040 Speaker 5: in Ellwood, he actually talks about we discussed like he 609 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 5: was driving the car. 610 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,200 Speaker 8: I knew that. You know, there's another person that we 611 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:04,359 Speaker 8: believed that was there as a. 612 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: She mentions somebody connected to Weldon Kennedy, the sausage. 613 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 5: King, because when we started looking into this case, there 614 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,279 Speaker 5: were always two names that were brought up every time 615 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,760 Speaker 5: was And when I talked to Elwood about it, He's like, yeah, 616 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,359 Speaker 5: we had done a polygraph on and he felled two 617 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 5: questions and you know, when I wanted to go back 618 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 5: and question some more, I was like, no, brought the 619 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 5: turning in. 620 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 8: She's like, you'll never talk to him again, and we 621 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 8: never did. And so he had told me He's like, yeah, 622 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 8: well I believe that he was the. 623 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,800 Speaker 5: Driver, okay, And he kind of kind of was like, well, 624 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 5: I can't really prove that, you. 625 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 8: Know, hung out together. And I'm like, okay, well I 626 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 8: have others that can stay that they did. 627 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 5: He's like, oh, well that's the case, then we've been 628 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 5: driving and probably have been the shooter. 629 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,919 Speaker 8: Okay. So he, coming from. 630 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 5: The police chaf wasn't denying these two people at the scene. 631 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,360 Speaker 1: So the police chief at the time told mel Mitchell 632 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: he believed those two men were behind the murders, but 633 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 1: because of their connections to political and law enforcement officials, 634 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: they were told to stop investigating them as persons of interest. 635 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: What would be their motive? Is this a thing about Hey, 636 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 1: they just rolled up on them and they wanted to 637 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: rape Shelley, and so they did what they did. They 638 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 1: got rid of Vince and raped her. 639 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 5: By all accounts, was gay. So and of course you 640 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:51,279 Speaker 5: know how it was in the eighties, Like you just 641 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 5: didn't talk about that because right After's murders basically has 642 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 5: dropped off the face of earth, like he left town 643 00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 5: for a little while and then he came back and 644 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 5: just became a reclue. 645 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:34,400 Speaker 1: Crime is America's great industry, even referred to more bombastically 646 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 1: as the Great Empire. And it seems to me that 647 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,759 Speaker 1: throughout the plains of Parker County, Texas, back in the 648 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, an empirical criminal syndicate was not only active 649 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 1: within the fabric of everyday life, but a lot of 650 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: people in high positions were turning a blind eye. Several 651 00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: things bothered me about what I was hearing on my sources. 652 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: For one, the amount of fires connected back to the murders, 653 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 1: one of which Weatherford Police Department Chief Elwood Hohertz in 654 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three came out and said publicly was set 655 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: to cover up evidence connected to the murders. Number two, 656 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: this sausage guy Weldon Kennedy. Mel Mitchell had run this 657 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 1: thread down over the past several years and looked at 658 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 1: Kennedy and a possible connection to the murders. I could 659 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 1: see it, but wasn't yet sold on a human trafficker 660 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 1: being involved in the murders of two local teens. I'd 661 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:47,840 Speaker 1: need more context, additional links, some sort of evidence beyond 662 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:54,080 Speaker 1: people talking. Moreover, as we will begin to explore in 663 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,800 Speaker 1: the next episode, Vincent and Shelley were not the only 664 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:04,280 Speaker 1: teens in Parker County during the same general time period, 665 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:09,720 Speaker 1: and so when you have multiple murders, all with similarities, 666 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 1: you'd have to start thinking serial killer. In Texas during 667 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:21,279 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties was a hotbed for 668 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:28,960 Speaker 1: serial killers. So how would Kennedy and his crew, if 669 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,080 Speaker 1: you will, be connected to any of the area murders 670 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 1: of young people. 671 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 5: I've had numerous people tell us that, I mean, on 672 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:41,280 Speaker 5: his side, I've heard more it's like more immigrant related. 673 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,360 Speaker 5: I've heard numerous people that had work there that they 674 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,279 Speaker 5: would not eat any of the meat because there's a 675 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,799 Speaker 5: possibility that he may have gotten rid of a couple 676 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,880 Speaker 5: of bodies through meat grinder. That's not the first time 677 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,200 Speaker 5: I've heard that story. Obviously I didn't work there, but 678 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:56,920 Speaker 5: I'm just going by some of the locals that had 679 00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 5: worked there, had worked in the meat processing area. 680 00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 8: They had just said there was. 681 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 5: Up to five people that had been placed in her 682 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,719 Speaker 5: meat grinder at some point in time. It's a lot 683 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:06,719 Speaker 5: of locals when it actually eat some of the meat, 684 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 5: the meat products. 685 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,000 Speaker 1: Is he still alive now now. 686 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:14,920 Speaker 8: He passed away several years ago. 687 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 1: Who runs the place now? Well? 688 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 5: That one I believe had burned down, So I'm not 689 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:23,799 Speaker 5: sure if, like when you're reading this stuff, you see 690 00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 5: just how many fires there are. It seems like everything 691 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:33,160 Speaker 5: burns down within this a this time period. I get 692 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:34,759 Speaker 5: it when you have a couple of house fires here 693 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 5: and there, But when you have the amount of house fires, 694 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 5: or for instance, when Shelley had her viewing and right 695 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,440 Speaker 5: across the street the church, you know, caught on fire 696 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,799 Speaker 5: from the funeral home, I don't know if you could 697 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:49,640 Speaker 5: take it as almost like a warning, because I mean, 698 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:51,799 Speaker 5: I know that was arson, you know, And you have 699 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:55,680 Speaker 5: other key places that eventually burn down. There's like a 700 00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,840 Speaker 5: hardware store that had like burned down later. You've got 701 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 5: that a a handover which we still cannot get any 702 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,719 Speaker 5: kind of you know, solid lead on exactly who lived 703 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:06,760 Speaker 5: there at that time. 704 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 8: The murders. 705 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,000 Speaker 5: There's evidence in that house fire those connected to the kids' murders, 706 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 5: as well as a couple of other cases that were 707 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,040 Speaker 5: found within that home that burned down, And they also 708 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,040 Speaker 5: said that there was a warning to PD and to 709 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,560 Speaker 5: others to you know, to basically back off essentially. 710 00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 1: And this is because of evidence. 711 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,320 Speaker 8: You think, I think there was evidence in the home 712 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 8: or whoever is living there. 713 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 5: I also had evidence as well and decided, Okay, the 714 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,400 Speaker 5: best way to get rid of evidence is obviously to 715 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:35,480 Speaker 5: burn it. 716 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 1: It seems like if you're covering up a couple of murders, 717 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:43,319 Speaker 1: up two young people, it seems like the extreme is 718 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,000 Speaker 1: met here, like this thing like gets out of hand, 719 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,279 Speaker 1: or is there a bigger thing at play here that 720 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,879 Speaker 1: they're covering up besides just the murders. 721 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,480 Speaker 5: I don't know, because I've been repeatedly told by some 722 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:02,120 Speaker 5: people that were in SO and departments that have since retired, 723 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,480 Speaker 5: that had told me repeatedly over time with just different people. 724 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,400 Speaker 5: They're like, there's bigger things at play here than you 725 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 5: can imagine, and there's a reason why they have to 726 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,759 Speaker 5: keep it suppressed because it's not apparently it's not just 727 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 5: about these two kids. 728 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:18,680 Speaker 8: It supposedly goes I. 729 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,439 Speaker 5: Guess a lot deeper and higher than just what these 730 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,120 Speaker 5: two kids murders represents, and so we're constantly trying to 731 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 5: dig deeper in and thinking, Okay, well, how much more are. 732 00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:30,600 Speaker 8: We looking at? 733 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,800 Speaker 5: I mean, how much deeper is it going to get? 734 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,480 Speaker 5: Or how much higher? When it comes to politics? I mean, 735 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,720 Speaker 5: I don't know, but I've been repeatedly told that that 736 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:41,879 Speaker 5: there's a much bigger picture here than just. 737 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 8: These two kids. 738 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,960 Speaker 1: As the investigation into Shelley and Vincent's murders seemed to 739 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,879 Speaker 1: stall in the years after their deaths, with still no 740 00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:58,400 Speaker 1: real solid lead in the case or even any serious 741 00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:10,480 Speaker 1: persons of interest, the unthinkable happened in Weatherford again. So 742 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:11,680 Speaker 1: did you live in Weatherford? 743 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,320 Speaker 4: Yes? I lived at Weatherford for about twenty five years. 744 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:15,720 Speaker 1: Really when did you get there? 745 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,480 Speaker 7: In the mid nineteen seventies. 746 00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:24,799 Speaker 1: In July nineteen eighty seven, nineteen year old Wendy Robinson, 747 00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:29,280 Speaker 1: a classmate of Shelley in Vincent's is living her best life, 748 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,920 Speaker 1: studying at Weatherford Junior College in hopes of becoming a teacher, 749 00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 1: spending her summers in Weatherford with friends, playing tennis and 750 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:42,040 Speaker 1: hanging out at what locals called the Wall, a popular 751 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:46,200 Speaker 1: spot in town along the backside of Lake Weatherford, where 752 00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:52,080 Speaker 1: teens would go to drink, hook up, sunbathe, and swim. Notably, 753 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:57,480 Speaker 1: Wendy bears a striking resemblance to Shelley. Long flowing, thick 754 00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:03,760 Speaker 1: brunette hair, round face, soft, gentle eyes, prominent lips, and also, 755 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:11,240 Speaker 1: as Shelley's autopsy noted quote, fully developed. As if older 756 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:12,360 Speaker 1: than her years. 757 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,960 Speaker 7: She had just finished her first year of Weatherford College. 758 00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,319 Speaker 7: She was a very pretty girl. She was about one 759 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,839 Speaker 7: hundred and twenty pounds, about five foot four. She had 760 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 7: been active in the tennis team in high school. I 761 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,600 Speaker 7: don't think she played in college. But she was personable, 762 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:34,160 Speaker 7: very attractive, young gal. 763 00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:39,840 Speaker 1: And so you would have known about the Shelley Vincent murder. 764 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,800 Speaker 7: Yes, that was a big deal as far as nothing 765 00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:44,760 Speaker 7: like that had happened to Wetherford before. 766 00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:46,719 Speaker 1: And it must have shocked everybody. 767 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:48,759 Speaker 4: Oh it was, it was so senseless. 768 00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:54,479 Speaker 1: Patricia Springer started her journalism career over forty five years 769 00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:58,560 Speaker 1: ago in Weatherford as a beat reporter for the local 770 00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:03,400 Speaker 1: radio station, which she and her then husband owned. Patricia 771 00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:07,120 Speaker 1: has written books and appeared on television. She has been 772 00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:12,600 Speaker 1: reporting on Wendy Robinson since the summer of nineteen eighty seven. 773 00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:18,360 Speaker 1: She has a mass every known document from Wendy's case. 774 00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:21,880 Speaker 1: Wendy Robinson, how do you lock onto that? 775 00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,959 Speaker 7: Because I knew the family pretty well. Linda, Wendy's mother, 776 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,560 Speaker 7: and I were tennis partners at a women's tennis league, 777 00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,040 Speaker 7: and so I was pretty close with Linda. 778 00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:35,200 Speaker 4: I knew Jim pretty well. And when Wendy went missing. 779 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:40,720 Speaker 7: Then I contacted them, of course, and just followed along 780 00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:45,600 Speaker 7: the story what happens. Wendy had gone to Lake Weatherford 781 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,480 Speaker 7: to a place called the Wall, and that's where kids 782 00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:52,000 Speaker 7: wit and sunbathed, and that was July eighth of nineteen 783 00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:56,360 Speaker 7: eighty seven. She went down there to sunbathe. She was alone, 784 00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:01,600 Speaker 7: and she didn't come home, and so they Jim to 785 00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:06,359 Speaker 7: her dad, called the police and reported her missing. I mean, 786 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,160 Speaker 7: they couldn't imagine where she was. They called all of 787 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:12,319 Speaker 7: her friends, anything to try to find her, and no 788 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,440 Speaker 7: one in Seni her. She had plans with a friend 789 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:18,720 Speaker 7: that night and she didn't show up. The friend called 790 00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 7: her house, and no one in sen her. So it 791 00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:23,840 Speaker 7: was just a mystery of where she had gone. 792 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:29,200 Speaker 1: As Wendy Robinson turns up missing, sparking new concerns in 793 00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:34,640 Speaker 1: Parker County, the Weatherford Police Department seems to catch a 794 00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:39,120 Speaker 1: break in Shelley in Vincent's case. As it turned out, 795 00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:44,440 Speaker 1: about a month after Shelley and Vincent's murders, sadistic serial 796 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:52,360 Speaker 1: killer Oddist Tool was arrested. Toole also committed many arsons 797 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:57,960 Speaker 1: as a way to misdirect investigators and cover up his crimes. 798 00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,320 Speaker 1: He had also teamed up with Henry Lee Lucas, another 799 00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:08,880 Speaker 1: barbaric serial murderer who frequently prowled around Texas in search 800 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:14,600 Speaker 1: of victims. Between them, they had confessed to murdering over 801 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:19,840 Speaker 1: one hundred victims. One of those confessions Tool made was 802 00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:24,160 Speaker 1: for the abduction and murder of Adam Walsh, America's most 803 00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:29,239 Speaker 1: wanted host, John Walsh's six year old son, who Tool 804 00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:34,320 Speaker 1: says he decapitated in the years after Shelley and Vincent 805 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:39,200 Speaker 1: were murdered. Out of Nowhere, Tool steps forward and claims 806 00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:43,399 Speaker 1: to have committed the murders on Piss Hill that night. 807 00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,879 Speaker 1: It could make sense based on the locations. Tool and 808 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:57,120 Speaker 1: Lucas were known to have prayed on victims, so the 809 00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:02,800 Speaker 1: Weatherford PD sent a detective to Jacksonville, Florida, where Oddist 810 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,799 Speaker 1: Tool was being held on separate charges to interview him 811 00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:16,080 Speaker 1: about the murders of Shelley and Vincent. Please check out 812 00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:20,000 Speaker 1: my weekly podcast, Crossing the Line with m William Phelps, 813 00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:23,440 Speaker 1: where I delve into a new missing person and cold 814 00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:28,080 Speaker 1: case murder each week on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, 815 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:34,000 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your favorite shows. Coming up. In 816 00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:37,320 Speaker 1: the next episode of Paper Ghosts. 817 00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,279 Speaker 7: There is a man that worked on that ranch that 818 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:44,839 Speaker 7: found her Bobby laying there. He had gone to enter 819 00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,319 Speaker 7: the ranch and that's when he discovered her. It was 820 00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,600 Speaker 7: in the middle of nowhere, there were no houses around 821 00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:51,160 Speaker 7: or anything. 822 00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:57,799 Speaker 5: They were classmates, and I know that with hers. I 823 00:54:57,880 --> 00:54:59,799 Speaker 5: know that her seat was pushed all her back in 824 00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:04,960 Speaker 5: her and it sounded as though there isn't a lot 825 00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,080 Speaker 5: of evidence in her vehicle either. 826 00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:12,759 Speaker 7: Her father had confessed to her that he it was 827 00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:17,040 Speaker 7: part of the murderer. And then that's when they went back, 828 00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:21,279 Speaker 7: and so all of a sudden he came to the forefront. 829 00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:30,399 Speaker 1: Paper Ghost Season five is written and executive produced by 830 00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:36,280 Speaker 1: me and William Phelps. Script consulting by iHeartMedia Executive producer 831 00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:42,239 Speaker 1: Catherine Law, Production by toc Boom Productions, Audio mastering and 832 00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:47,080 Speaker 1: mixing by Brandon Dicker. The series theme number four four 833 00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:51,080 Speaker 1: to two is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and 834 00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:52,320 Speaker 1: Tom Mooney.