1 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: All right, let me take you back to the Cubs 2 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: versus Padres game. And if you're into baseball, you already 3 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: know where I'm going with this, because there's really only 4 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: one game I could possibly be talking about right now, 5 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: Wrigley Field, Game three, the wild Card Series. The San 6 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: Diego Padre is going up against the Chicago Cubs, and 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: this game would decide who moves on to the Division Series. 8 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: It's the top of the ninth full count and the 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: Padres Xander Bogarts is at the plate. Pitcher polls Back 10 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: throws a fastball and if you're watching on TV, you 11 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: can see the strike zone box and that pitch doesn't 12 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: look like it makes it into that box. It looks 13 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: real low. Anyway, Bogarts doesn't swing, and since this looks 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: like it would be ball four, he kind of starts 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: to take his walk to first base, but then the 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: umpire calls it a strike. 17 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: Detail wayburn just build down, teller and bok yards dosense. 18 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: Xander Bogarts is genuinely shocked and that shot turns very 19 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: quickly into anger. He slams his back down, He gets 20 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: up in the UMP's face. The manager comes out, the 21 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: dugout fans are furious. I'm gonna put it democratically in 22 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: case any Cubs fans are listening to this. But this 23 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: was widely viewed as a questionable call. And this is 24 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: where things are gonna get real interesting. 25 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 2: The umpire called it a strike and no one had 26 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 2: any recourse to change it. 27 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: Joelimir is a senior writer at Sports Business Journal. 28 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 2: And that was one where the padres are starting to 29 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 2: rally and or this had a chance to and that 30 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: was taken away by this incorrect call. 31 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: Players and fans arguing with umpires over a bad call. 32 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: That's nothing new. But starting with the twenty twenty sixth season, 33 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: the age old tradition of umpires being judged jury an 34 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: executioner is going to get a little bit more hazy. 35 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: Major League Baseball will have a new challenge system called 36 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: the Automated Ball Strike System or the ABS. 37 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:12,239 Speaker 2: I've spoken to Christian Manford about this automated ball Strike system, 38 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: what most people call robot umpires. His point to me 39 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 2: has always been, we want to make sure we get 40 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 2: the worst calls overturned. And that's what I've always realized too, 41 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 2: is that fans can be forgiving that humans might make 42 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: small mistakes. Here and there, but no one wants the 43 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 2: outcome of the game to be determined by a bad call. 44 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: The ABS system won't replace human umpires, but it will 45 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 2: now be used to check their calls a limited amount 46 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 2: of times per game. A player can just tap their 47 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 2: helmet to ask for a review. Matter of fact, speaking 48 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 2: of helmet taps, let's run back some more of that 49 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: tape from right after that Xander Bogar's play next year. 50 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 2: That is a helmet tap in a millisecond. 51 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: That right there is the announcers basically agreeing with the 52 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: crowd that that sure did not look like a strike. 53 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 1: The Padres lost the game and that was the end 54 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: of their season. And after the game, the only silver 55 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: lining for Xander Bogart's was the promise that the future 56 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: of baseball is about to change. 57 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 3: We talk about it now. I mean, you know it's 58 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 3: a ball. Yeah, it's just let's up the whole game, 59 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 3: you know what I mean. I can't go back in 60 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 3: time and talking about it now, I won't change anything. 61 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 3: So it was. It was bad, and thank god for 62 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 3: ABS exit because this is CRIL. 63 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: Whether we like it or not, Technology is playing a 64 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: bigger role in determining who wins and who loses? So 65 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: what does it mean to bring automation into something as 66 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: human as sports? And how is it changing how we 67 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: the fans experience the game? Kaleidoscope and iHeart podcasts. This 68 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: this is kill Switch. I'm Dexter Thomas. 69 00:03:55,080 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 3: I'm all right, goodbye? 70 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: Where are we right now? With technology and refereeing in sports. 71 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 2: For decades now, we've grown accustomed to instant replay, the 72 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 2: use of better cameras to guide the officials and umpires 73 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: and making decisions. Tennis was the first one to really 74 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: start automating a lot of those calls. 75 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: Almost twenty years ago, professional tennis started incorporating a tool 76 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: called Hawkeye. Hawkeye is a computer vision system and originally 77 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: it's a review tool. A human line judge was still 78 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: making the call, but if you thought they were wrong, 79 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: you could challenge it and Hawkeye would be used to 80 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,679 Speaker 1: check the call and Hawkeye would have the final word. 81 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: But since then Hawkeye has gone further than just being 82 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: a backup challenge system. Since twenty twenty one, the Australian 83 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: Open has used Hawkeye to make calls in all games, 84 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: and this year Wimbledon got rid of human line judges. Entirely. 85 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: Over the years, other sports have started using similar systems, 86 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: and now starting next year, Major League Baseball is getting 87 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: one two. Could you break down what Hawkeye is for me? 88 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 2: Their camera system has been generally considered the best attracting 89 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: balls or pucks or whatever the object is. They have 90 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 2: these high definition cameras, usually like four K cameras all 91 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,799 Speaker 2: around the stadium. They triangulate all the player in bald 92 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 2: movement on the field. 93 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: Or quarter or whatever sport you're. 94 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 2: Working on, and then they have these advanced algorithms that 95 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 2: identify its exact location, and Major League Baseball has said 96 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 2: that based on their validation studies, it is accurate to 97 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: within a fifth of an inch. Think of like an 98 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 2: eminem and it's like half of that diameter, so very precise. 99 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: The consideration when implementing technology. 100 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: Like this is it's threefold. 101 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 2: It's you want to increase the accuracy of the calls, 102 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 2: you want to increase the speed of the game, and 103 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 2: you want to provide a proper entertainment experience for the fans. 104 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 2: That those are the three considerations, And depending on the 105 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 2: type of sport and the type of competition, you may 106 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 2: choose differently. 107 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: But different sports have different needs. The NFL doesn't use 108 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: hawkeye to decide every call in the field. It's mostly 109 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: running in the background, and this year it was mainly 110 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: there to measure first downs. 111 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 2: The hawkeye cameras at every NFL stadium have replaced the 112 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 2: chain gang. You know, how antiquated was it that these 113 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 2: guys are running out onto the field carrying two poles 114 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 2: tethered by a ten yard chain and like putting it 115 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 2: down and measuring it to see if it's a first down, 116 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 2: to see if it's a first down. Now the Hawkeye 117 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 2: cameras automate that, and every time they do it, the 118 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 2: NFL says it saves like thirty or forty seconds. At 119 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 2: the moment, it seems like a huge investment for a 120 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 2: very small payoff. But if you're talking like, say thirty seconds, 121 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 2: you know I'd save six minutes every Sunday. 122 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: So it's not like hawkeye has completely changed the modern 123 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: game of football. So why are they using it at all? Well, 124 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: it might have something to do with the fact that 125 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: people are becoming much less okay, with the fact that 126 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: human referees are human who can make mistakes. So knowing 127 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: that there's some sort of non human neutral arbiter in 128 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: the background there somewhere good put fans at ease. 129 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: A number of the reasons for bringing on technology have 130 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: been precipitated by an obvious error in a big spot. 131 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 2: There was a US Open match between Serena Williams and 132 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: Jennifer Capriotti twenty something years ago where a few terrible 133 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 2: calls against Serena Williams were so bad. Oh no, hawkeye 134 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: was now less called out by the lines. 135 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 3: Person and give me a break. Well, this is ridiculous. 136 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: Those bad calls me that like the following year's US Open, 137 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: hawkeye was there. There was in the twenty ten World Cup, 138 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 2: England was playing Germany and Frank Lampard scored what anyone 139 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: could visibly see was a goal except to the officials 140 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 2: on the field. Here we go, it's so hard look 141 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 2: at that. 142 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: You know he was it, We knew he was in. 143 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, goal line technology came about. 144 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 2: And so I think generally the earlier implementations of technology 145 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 2: were because of an outcry of something that was a 146 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 2: terrible call. 147 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: Have you seen any high profile mistakes that technology is 148 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: made in refereeing. 149 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 2: Yes, the technology is certainly not infallible. Anyone who has 150 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 2: a printer knows this. You know, Wimbledon had some high 151 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: profile problems with it. That was actually because someone accidentally 152 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 2: turned the system off. It wasn't because the system wasn't 153 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 2: working the way that it was supposed to. Somebody accidentally 154 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 2: toggled the on off switch in the wrong direction. There 155 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: have been a few times where you know, leagues or 156 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 2: technology providers have had to say, hey, we got something wrong. 157 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 2: I think particularly there have been a few in software. 158 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: So technology assistant refereeing has been pretty successful in tennis 159 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: and a lot of people are excited for it to 160 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: come to baseball, but soccer shows us where it can 161 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 1: cause some problems. 162 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 2: VAR and soccer in Europe is probably sort of case 163 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: study number one of something that hasn't been as successful 164 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 2: as I think most people thought it might be. 165 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: VAR stands for Video Assistant Referee and it's basically an 166 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: instant replay system. VAR has been around for about a decade, 167 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: but it's not always popular. 168 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 2: There is a room off site where a designated official 169 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 2: is studying the different monitors, different angles, different viewpoints, and 170 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 2: in communication with the referee on the pitch to sort 171 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 2: of collaboratively make the decision as to whether or something 172 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 2: needs to get overturned. The issue that a lot of 173 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 2: folks have had is that VAR hasn't always been as 174 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 2: successful in getting calls correct as people would like, and 175 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 2: it also can be kind of a tedious process. Some 176 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 2: of these delays have gone on pretty extensively, and that's 177 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: just you know, it disrupts the whole flow of the game. 178 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: A poll by ipso's last year found that half of 179 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: English soccer fans believe that VAR has had a negative 180 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: impact on their experience of the match. When Joe talks 181 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: about those considerations that sports officials need to have when 182 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: they're incorporating technology, the accuracy, speed and entertainment, some soccer 183 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: fans don't seem to think that it's hidden any of 184 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: those metrics properly. A former Premier League referee that we 185 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: spoke to said that it's not necessarily always the VAR 186 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: itself is that VR is applied inconsistently across matches, and 187 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: that VR is really most useful when there's already a 188 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: very clear and obvious error that should have been caught. 189 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 2: There was talk, I believe that within the last two 190 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 2: years whether the Premier League would even fully continue it. 191 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: They ultimately decided to keep it, and I think that 192 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 2: was the right decision because even if it's not as 193 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 2: successful as fans would like, it's still better than the alternative, 194 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 2: like going back to just what the human referee sees 195 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 2: in the moment. That's asking an awful lot of one 196 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 2: individual with two eyes covering a field that's just massive. 197 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: They don't always have the best vantage point as hard 198 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: as they try to, so having an extra support system 199 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 2: is good. At the end of the day, the technology is, 200 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 2: whatever its accuracy level is, it's still going to be 201 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 2: better than what the human eye can see. 202 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 1: So even if it isn't perfect, leagues in almost every 203 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,319 Speaker 1: major pro sport are at least experimenting with this kind 204 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 1: of refereeing technology. So how do the referees feel about 205 00:11:48,440 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: this stuff? That's after the break, So how do the 206 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: umpires feel about this technology? 207 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 2: Well, I certainly made some calls to try to speak 208 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 2: to them about this. No one would speak on the record. 209 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 2: The one sort of like public piece of evidence that 210 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 2: we have is that the collective bargain agreement that the 211 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 2: umpires had with the league allows for this to happen. 212 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 2: So even if the Empires didn't want the system, they 213 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 2: agreed to it, right, they have been compensated in some 214 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 2: sort of way that they are on board. 215 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: With the system being implemented. So that's like the only 216 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: thing we know for sure. 217 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 2: I think, on one hand, you know, these are competitive people. 218 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 2: You know, if anyone working in sports, whether a player 219 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 2: or otherwise, is going to be competitive, and you know 220 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 2: there's some degree of not wanting to get shown up 221 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 2: by a system. But on the other hand, especially how 222 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 2: often we've seen vitriol spewed at you know, officials and umpires, 223 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 2: I think them not being blamed for a bad call, 224 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: the fact that there's now recourse for their biggest mistake 225 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 2: getting corrected, I think in some ways might be a 226 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 2: little bit of a relief. 227 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: Now, this is an area where the technology could really 228 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: change sports and the culture of how we experience them. 229 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: I mean, what would the game be like without the 230 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: player referee arguments. I think, just naturally, we always, maybe 231 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: not all of us, I'd like to think not all 232 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: of us, but a lot of us will find some 233 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: reason to blame the umpire, to blame the referees for something. 234 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: It's almost like it's part of the game. 235 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and people cling to that. Like, especially baseball more 236 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 2: than other sports, there has been a almost a celebration 237 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,439 Speaker 2: of arguing with the empires. I mean, if you look 238 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: back at many of the famous clips in baseball history, 239 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 2: how often do you end up seeing a manager or 240 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 2: a player like John with the Empire. They're going at 241 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 2: it face to face like Noston nose. Sometimes they've been 242 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 2: kicking dirt on the Empire's feet. Now that is they 243 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 2: played umpire Tim mcleland with a bat on his hand. 244 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 2: They might be going to call George bred out, well 245 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 2: he is well, he's out, Yes, look at that Red 246 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 2: is out. Damon Matt he is out. 247 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: And having the Babe Usha lay restrained, Rob Henning, why 248 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: not buy it? Tom mccond. 249 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: There are all sorts of histrionics and tantrums that have 250 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 2: been thrown that almost became an accepted part of the sport. 251 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 2: And I'm of the opinion that we'll find other traditions 252 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 2: to cling on too. Like I think at the end 253 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 2: of the day, doing your best to strive to minimize 254 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 2: the number of incorrect calls is a far greater good 255 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 2: than clinging to this past relic of umpire arguments. 256 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: Og Baseball fans will remember the George Brett Pine Tara incident. 257 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: That's from the earlier clip we just played. So fights 258 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: like this might be entertaining to watch as a spectator, 259 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: but they also make the job of being an umpire 260 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: or referee extremely difficult. And in a lot of youth sports, 261 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: and remember this is where the future pros first learned 262 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: the game, there is a referee shortage between low pay 263 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: and parents screaming at them constantly, people just straight up 264 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: don't want to be refs anymore. 265 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 2: The National Federation of High Schools in the in the 266 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 2: US has already described the youth sports referee shortage as 267 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 2: a crisis, and a lot of it is just frank 268 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: the parent behavior, or you know, sometimes the athletes themselves, 269 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: but there's like a lot of bad behavior directed at 270 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 2: the umpires and officials. Certainly, the prevalence of sports betting 271 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: at the highest levels have made that anger and angst 272 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 2: toward officials even higher if someone's got a bet riding 273 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 2: on it. 274 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: Sports betting is another area of technology that's already changed 275 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: how sports are watched. I mean, that's probably an entirely 276 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: different episode, but the fact that people are betting on 277 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,239 Speaker 1: games might be an argument for more automation and refereeing. 278 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you don't want to lose a thousand bucks 279 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: or more because the umpire made a mistake, And for 280 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: umpires and referees themselves, no longer having angry gamblers threatening 281 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: you and your DMS could be a nice positive. I mean, 282 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: you don't like to call well, hey, don't look at me, 283 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: take it up with the machine. And actually, that dynamic 284 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: right there has already kind of started to happen in 285 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: the early tests of the ABS in baseball. 286 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 2: The first public demonstration of this ABS system was the 287 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 2: Inlanding League's All Star Game. It was in York, Pennsylvania. 288 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 2: The umpire had a little earpiece in his ear and 289 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 2: whatever the system said, just you know, within like a 290 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 2: half second of the pitch, it would tell him whether 291 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: it was baller strike and then he would signal it. 292 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: And most of the pitches it called were what you 293 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: would have expected them to be. There's at least one 294 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 2: pitch that I think everybody in the stadium thought, oh, 295 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 2: the robot made a mistake on it, and so the 296 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 2: player turned toward the empire to argue as he is 297 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: accustomed to doing, and then the empire just kind of 298 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: pointed at the earpiece being like, hey, it's not my call, 299 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 2: and then it just kind of the budding fury just 300 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: was diffused in the moment, like the player was deflated 301 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 2: and he walked slowly back to the dugout. 302 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: Really they just said, oh, okay, the robot says, so, 303 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: so never mind. 304 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 2: Well, it's like, what's he going to do? Is he 305 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 2: going to argue at a spokesman? At that point, it 306 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 2: wasn't like he's arguing with the decision maker. Nowadays, it's 307 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 2: a camera based system. The Hawkey, that particular one was 308 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 2: a track man radar, and so it's just this like 309 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 2: black rectangle that's hanging above home plate. Are you gonna 310 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: yell at. 311 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: A black box? I guess not, Jeez, I guess not. 312 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: As Joe puts it, the automated systems can also take 313 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: some of the easier calls off the referee's plate and 314 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: let them focus on the trickier calls. This could speed 315 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: up the game and make the calls that the reps 316 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: do make more accurate. 317 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 2: In a free flowing sport like basketball, hockey soccer, they 318 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 2: have a lot of responsibility. They are looking for a 319 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 2: lot of different infractions. They are looking at a lot 320 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 2: of different calls that they might have to make. So 321 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: if you eliminate one or two of those, in theory, 322 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 2: at least they should be able to do the other 323 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 2: ones a little better. 324 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, that I think I can see where people are 325 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: uncomfortable with some parts uncomfortable with other parts. But yeah, 326 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: there's parts of a referee or an umpire's job that 327 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: is pretty binary. Right, is the ball in or out? 328 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: Is it a goal or not? There are others where 329 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: is that a foul or not? Was an intentional foul? 330 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: You know? Soccer? Okay, there was a slide tackle. Were 331 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: they going for the ball? Did they just miss the 332 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 1: ball and actually run into the other dude's ankle? Is 333 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: this a technical foul? Did use this guy mouthing off? 334 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: Or is did he cross the line into saying something 335 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: that hey, we really can't have that on the court. 336 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: You got to get out of here for a couple 337 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: of minutes. Yeah. 338 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 2: And so that's why tennis is a sport where it's 339 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 2: like a lot of those jobs were purely binary, and 340 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: so in many ways those jobs have just simply been 341 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 2: eliminated in other sports. Like all the scenarios you're describing 342 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 2: like reinforces why human officials will always remain important and 343 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 2: mitigating some of these or you know, alleviating the responsibility 344 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 2: of some of these binary calls is where technology can 345 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 2: play a crucial role and being beneficial. 346 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: So, yeah, there are some reasons why people might want 347 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: automated systems like Hawkeye. Robots are pretty good at following rules, 348 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: but sports isn't always about the written rules. There's also 349 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: a lot of unwritten ones. I'm even thinking of not 350 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: too long ago. I'm watching this clip of Clayton Kershaw's pitching, 351 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: and there's a rookie playing and he's up to bat, 352 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: and it's clearly the fourth ball. Clinton Kershaw throws the ball, 353 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: it's clearly outside the box, and the rookie throws the bat, 354 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: I mean throws it all almost all the way to 355 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: the dugout, I mean, really flips this thing. He's gonna 356 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: take his base. But he does that before the umpire 357 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: has made the call. Carol ooh, Carow tossed the bat. 358 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: What it was called a strike. Umpire calls it a strike. 359 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 1: It's not a strike. It was not a strike. And 360 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: you can hear the announcers essentially suggesting, yeah, you don't 361 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: do that. 362 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a certain etiquette of the sport that it 363 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 2: seems to have been ingrain And I think most umpires 364 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 2: are professional and do a great job, but there certainly 365 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 2: have been times where, you know, showing up the empire. 366 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 2: You know, it's not going to help you get the 367 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 2: next call. You know, it's just part of how it works. 368 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: I'm looking at the comments and the comments section of 369 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 1: this video, and it's really really interesting because you've got 370 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: some people who are saying, we can't get robo umpires 371 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: fast enough, like automate this whole thing, because we do 372 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: not need all these egos who cares. But then you 373 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: got other people saying, hey, this working needs to learn 374 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: lesson don't throw the bat and don't do that to 375 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: a veteran. 376 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 2: So much of this is baked into the sport, and 377 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 2: I'm sort of surprised how many people like this human 378 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 2: element to it and the tradition part of it. And 379 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 2: that's why Major League Baseball is not It certainly has 380 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 2: the technology that's capable of calling every pitch, but it 381 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 2: has decided on this challenge system because overwhelmingly the league 382 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 2: asked players and fans which kind of system they preferred, 383 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 2: and fans in play were very steadfast and saying they 384 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 2: wanted the challenge system. 385 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 1: So again, not everyone is down with completely removing humans 386 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: from judging sports, even if it might result in more 387 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: accurate calls. 388 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 2: There was actually some small protests in Wimbledon this year 389 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 2: when all the line judges had been relieved of their duties, 390 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 2: and so some of the signs were a little clever, 391 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 2: like don't let the bots call the shots, I think 392 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 2: was one of them. 393 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: Don't let the bots call the shots. 394 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 2: They all dressed up as the Wimbledon line judge while 395 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 2: carrying these signs too, so it was a nice touch. 396 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: Amazing. 397 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 2: There are definitely some baseball players who want nothing to 398 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,479 Speaker 2: do with this ABS system, really yeah. I mean some 399 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 2: of them are just you know, they're used to one thing. 400 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 2: They're said in their ways, however you want to call it, 401 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 2: and they're used to having a human back there make 402 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 2: the decisions and they don't want that to go away. 403 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 2: I think, especially if you're a star player who has 404 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 2: been getting the benefit of the doubt and there is 405 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 2: some subjectivity, the best picture tend to get more borderline 406 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 2: strike calls than others, So if you're one of those 407 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: star pitchers and you're used to getting the benefit of 408 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 2: the doubt. Maybe some of the hitters who were used 409 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 2: to getting you know, questionable calls call the ball in 410 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: their favor, and now all of a sudden, the robot's 411 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 2: calling it differently. Some of the change will happen generationally. 412 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 2: The current athletes have grown up with the iPhone in 413 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,439 Speaker 2: their hands in a way that you and I didn't. 414 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 2: But certainly some sports have more tradition, more stodgy rules 415 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 2: about them. But the fact that some Major League Baseball 416 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 2: often was the one that had the knock of being 417 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 2: the least progressive because of its adherence to tradition and 418 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 2: the fact that it is now introducing the ABS Challenge 419 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 2: system next year, shows that anybody can change. 420 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: So far, these technologies are mostly for objective calls, whether 421 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: there's a yes or no answer, and outside of ten is, 422 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: no major sport has turned its entire officiating job over 423 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: to the machines. But could AI change that. That's after 424 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: the break. So as of now, most major league sports 425 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: are using Hawkeye or some similar multi camera tracking systems, 426 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 1: but there are also newer technologies coming up in more 427 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: niche sports, and these experiments might be paved in the 428 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: way for use in the big arenas. 429 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 2: So one of the sports that we haven't talked about 430 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 2: yet is the X Games. They are moving toward automation 431 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 2: and they're officiating, and you would think when you talk 432 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 2: about like a Winter X Games and you're someone on 433 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 2: the halfpipe, seems like a subjective Oh did he land 434 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 2: that he or she landed that trick? How am I 435 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 2: going to score it? Jeremy Bloom, the former Olympian skier 436 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 2: who runs the X Games now, he actually became personal 437 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 2: friends with Sergey Brinn, the co founder of Google, and 438 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 2: so Sergey Brinn himself started writing the first bits of 439 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 2: code on this, and they hired away a gentleman named 440 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: Josh Gwether who used to lead a lot of Google's 441 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 2: AI efforts, and he's now the CEO of a spinoff 442 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 2: company called owl Ai, and they are using from just 443 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 2: one camera angle and then their computer at vision algorithms 444 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 2: to help officiate and score X Games competitions. And so 445 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 2: so far they've only used it in broadcasts just to 446 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 2: explain to fans what the actual human judges are seeing. 447 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 2: But my understanding is that within the next year it 448 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 2: will be like basically like the AI will have its 449 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 2: own vote in what the scoring is, and who knows, 450 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 2: maybe within a few years it'll be fully automated. They 451 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 2: realize that even as subjective as some of these tricks 452 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 2: could be, if you really break down the little small 453 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 2: components of tricks, you can be more objective about the 454 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 2: scoring system than you would have expected. And that's one 455 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 2: example of that sort of technology didn't exist two three 456 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 2: years ago, but the rapid increase in the abilities of 457 00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 2: artificial intelligence is driving that kind of processing speed to 458 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 2: make those decisions quickly enough and accurately enough to be meaningful. 459 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: And lower levels of major sports are also starting to 460 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: experiment with this newer technology. For example, youth sports can't 461 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: afford a full hawkeye system, but it turns out that 462 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,959 Speaker 1: the technology in our cell phones is already pretty good 463 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: at this stuff by itself. 464 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: In junior level tennis, which is sort of like, you know, 465 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 2: teenagers who are at a pretty high level, they are 466 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 2: still calling their own lines, whether it's in or out, 467 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 2: Like there aren't enough you know, line judges to staff 468 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 2: every single cord and every single line. You know, if 469 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 2: you're lucky, you have maybe one umpire overseeing the entire match, 470 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 2: but he or she won't have the best view of 471 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 2: every far corner. And most of the time it's as 472 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 2: I said, it's just the players. And people at the 473 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 2: USTA have told me that the number one reason junior 474 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 2: players quit tennis is because of the cheating, because it's 475 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 2: so rampant about like making bad calls onlines. It's a 476 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 2: very unfortunate environment. And so swing Vision is this app 477 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 2: that you can anyone with an iPhone can use and 478 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 2: you put your camera above the court and if you 479 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 2: and I were to play, we could put it up there. 480 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 2: You just need one iPhone and like if you have 481 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 2: an Apple Watch, you can actually like challenge calls on 482 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 2: your watch and it will show a little little replay here. 483 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,719 Speaker 2: And the CEO of swim Vision said that, like if 484 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 2: they use a one camera system, it's like ninety five 485 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 2: percent accurate, but if you put an iPhone on either side, 486 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 2: the algorithms are hey, they have better coverage. And then 487 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 2: it gets up to be ninety eight ninety nine. They're 488 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 2: about to get some sort of International Tennis Federation certification 489 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 2: where they could be used more widespread and organized matches 490 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 2: as a result. But he said when they first started implementing. 491 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 2: At some of these junior tennis tournaments, he had a 492 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 2: parent come up to him and say, your technology is 493 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 2: like so beneficial today. It's the first time I've spoken 494 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 2: to the parent of my son's opponent, and we had 495 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 2: a civil conversation about life and sport, and we weren't 496 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 2: constantly being like angry tense with each other because of 497 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 2: the line calls, and it changed the dynamic. And like, so, 498 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 2: if you can start having technology in a way that 499 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 2: improves the playing environment and allows more people to stay 500 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 2: in the sport, that's a big win. 501 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: Technology is going to make a mistake at some point, 502 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 1: just as a human is. There's going to be a 503 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: mistake at some point. Do you find that we as 504 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: players or fans are more harsh when it's a human 505 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: being making a mistake or a machine making mistake? 506 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 2: Paul Hawkins, the Hawkeye founder, his point, and I think 507 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 2: he's right about this, is that people are more forgiving 508 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 2: of a human Like the expectation in the standard that 509 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 2: technology gets held to is much higher, and it's a 510 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 2: much bigger problem when the technology makes a mistake, Like 511 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 2: in some ways it's harder to prove the technology made 512 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 2: a mistake, because usually when a human empire makes a mistake, 513 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 2: we look to the technology to be like, oh, that's 514 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 2: our proof of it. 515 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 1: Is there a point where we might have a traditional 516 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: sport like basketball, football, soccer, baseball, whatever, get fully automated 517 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: in terms of officiating, no human referees, just get rid 518 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: of them all together. 519 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, that one I have a hard time seeing, just 520 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 2: because having a human presence on the field to you know, 521 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 2: let's say two players start arguing with each other and like, 522 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 2: you know, they're about to fight each other. I suppose 523 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 2: we could have a humanoid robot like somebody step in 524 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,959 Speaker 2: and but like that seems pretty idea. Yeah, so I 525 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 2: think that's an extreme example. But just there are a 526 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 2: number of examples where we're far away from robots fully 527 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 2: replacing human umpires. But the just like AI can you know, 528 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 2: and anybody's daily office job can help with operational efficiencies 529 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 2: and make you, you know, better at your job overall 530 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 2: by taking something off your plate. I think that's the 531 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 2: kind of relationship we're looking at here, where the umpire 532 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 2: or the official will be able to delegate some of 533 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 2: the work to the machine so they can be better 534 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 2: at the other parts of the job. 535 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: Okay, before we close this out, I have two favorites 536 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: I want to ask of you. But there's a kind 537 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: of a backstory here. First, so I have this really 538 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: hazy memory of watching a video game commercial. I want 539 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: to say it was the early nineties, and I want 540 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: to say that it was like Supernintendo or Sega Genesis 541 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: like that era. But anyway, I think the setup is 542 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: that there's like a grandpa watching his kid play a 543 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,479 Speaker 1: baseball video game, right, and the grandson is playing this 544 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: game and he throws the ball to first base in 545 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: the game in this digitized voice says, oh, and you know, 546 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: the game plays a little jingle, a little tune, and 547 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: it goes on to the next inning. But the grandpa 548 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: is watching the game and he says, nah, way, that 549 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: was safe. What's this umpired thinking lousy bomb in just 550 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: going off on it, And I remember thinking, ha ha ha, 551 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: this is funny because Grandpa doesn't understand this is a 552 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: video game. Video games and machines, they don't make mistakes 553 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: on a call. And that was like the whole joke, 554 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: the whole setup of the commercial. It never occurred to 555 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: me that we would have actual machines judging the real sports. 556 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: So my first request is I would love to hear 557 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: from other people who watch or who play sports. What 558 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: do you think about automated refereeing? What would you think 559 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: about seeing it in your favorite sport. You can email 560 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: us at kill Switch at Kaleidoscope dot NYC or on Instagram. 561 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: We're at kill Switch Pod. I'm gonna be posting about 562 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: this a lot also my personal account at dex digi, 563 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: and I'm really interested in seeing what people think. And 564 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: my second ask is, if you know what this game is, 565 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: please tell me. I don't think I made this up 566 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: at a thin air, but I'm starting to think that 567 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: maybe I just hallucinated it, and you would make me 568 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: feel a lot better if you can actually tell me 569 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: what this commercial is. So if you can tell me 570 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: what it is, please find a way to comment it 571 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: to us. I will shout you out in the next episode. 572 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: And I'm very serious about this anyway. Thank you for 573 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: making it to the end of another episode of kill Switch, 574 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: which is hosted by me Dexter Thomas. It's produced by 575 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: Sena Ozaki, Darluk Potts, and Julian Nutter. Also shout out 576 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: to Alexanderveld, who helped produce today's episode. Our theme song 577 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: is by Me and Kyle Murdoch, and Kyle also mixed 578 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: the show. From Kaleidoscope, our executive producers are Oz balashin On, 579 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: Gesha Jigadur, and Kate Osborne. From iHeart, our executive producers 580 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: are Katrina Norville and Nikki Etur. And that's it from 581 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: US Catch in the next one.