1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to River Cafe Table four, a production of I 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Adam I Studios. Having read her moving 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: historical political memoir British, I asked staff for hers if 4 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: we might have a conversation for River Cafe Table four. 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: Lucky for me and lucky for all of your listening today. 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: She said yes. Now before going into the restaurant for 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: lunch together, we're going to talk about life, her grandmother's 8 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: food from Ghana, growing up in Wimbledon, surrounded by her 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: family and much much more. Lucky us, Lucky me, my 10 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: grandmother who turned ninety three last week and lived around 11 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: the corner for me and Wimbledon. She came to the 12 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: UK with her children, including my mom. In My grandmother 13 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: is of a generation I suppose of the first mass 14 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: immigration of Ghanaians to London, and it really was a 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: community and many of them were very highly educated. My 16 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: grandfather had been to Cambridge in the nineteen forties on 17 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: a colonial scholarship. They were diplomats, they were doctors, nurses, entrepreneurs, 18 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: and my grandmother's house was a place that people who 19 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: had recently arrived would come stay, be fed. And then 20 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: I talk about my grandmother's house I can smell it. 21 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: What do you smell? I can smell fish, dried fish, 22 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: salt fish, grilled fish. I can smell kenk, which is 23 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: a very goodame dish which my grandmother actually used to 24 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: make and sell at the market. And Kenk has made 25 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: out fermented corn dough and then you knead it into 26 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 1: these dumplings and then you wrap it in banana leaves 27 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: and then you steam it to eat it. And then 28 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: you eat it with usually fried or grilled fish, with 29 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: this incredible pepper sauce called sheet or, which is made 30 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: out of dried shrimps and pepper. It's very spicy, salty, 31 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: oily shrimp eads, absolutely delicious. You were growing up and 32 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: as English and community, I know, Wimbledon. Did you go 33 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: to school and eat the kind of school food or 34 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: did you go after school and need the kind of 35 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: fast food? Did you experience Sarah, did you always come 36 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,839 Speaker 1: home to wanted to eat the food of Yeah, we've 37 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: definitely ate dinner together every day in my house and 38 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: that was the meal you would look forward to. But 39 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: I loved school food, ashamed to say. I just remember 40 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: really oily lasagnas and lots of puddings because my mom, 41 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: I think, coming from Ganaan heritage, wasn't a big dessert person, 42 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: and I was all there for the steamed puddings that 43 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: Roodie Poly's, the sticky toffee pudding, the crumbles, the pies. 44 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: Absolutely loved them. From like about seven. I remember getting 45 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: well too until about fifteen, and then I started to 46 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: lose interest in you know, traditional nutritiony balanced meals, and 47 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: then I started I was a real party girl in 48 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: my team, so I got into clubbing and we would 49 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: always have McDonald's at like three in the morning on 50 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: the way home. Rich in hindsight is terrible, but you 51 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: get away with a lot, I suppose when you're really 52 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: when you're that young. But it also is very liberating 53 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: that you ate so much as a girl. You know 54 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: that you didn't worry about you know, how you love 55 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: to fashion or way. I wouldn't say I didn't worry 56 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: about it, but I definitely loved food, and I loved 57 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: food more than I wanted to try and change my body. 58 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: I do think it was a much less healthy time 59 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: for girl's body images than it is now. I mean now, 60 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: of course there's so much pressure on social media, but 61 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: I also feel really positive about the diversity of images 62 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: of women who have celebrated as beautiful. Now it's just 63 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: night and day from when I was growing up, and 64 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: I think I find it so much easier to see 65 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: women who make me feel positive about my body now, 66 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: and I hope that for younger and women growing up 67 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: now that that helped shape their perceptions. So that didn't 68 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: really exist, and I did definitely struggle just because I 69 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: was the only black girl in my environment. A lot 70 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: of the time, you know, I looked different at a 71 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: different hair texture, I had a different type of figure. 72 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: There were so many things about me that didn't conform 73 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: to what was being celebrated. I was this little mixed 74 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: race girl growing up in a world that at the time, 75 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: you know, I was born in one, it wasn't as 76 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: prevalent as it is now. And I very rarely or 77 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: never saw other people who looked like me, and I 78 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: was trying to work out where I belonged, you know, 79 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: in between these communities. I had this first generation gana 80 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: in community on my mother's side, and then I had 81 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: on my father's side, also complicated family because my grandfather 82 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: was a Jewish German refugee. He had worked really hard 83 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: to assimilate into Britishness. Understandably, arriving in Britain in nine 84 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: he wanted to assimilate. He changed his name from Hands 85 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: to John, as so many people did. He learned English 86 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: as quickly as he could. He married my grandmother, who 87 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: was from Yorkshire. And so even though he also had 88 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: an immigrant story, a refugee story, a totally different cultural backdrop, 89 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: he he really didn't communicate it. And he I wouldn't 90 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: say he hid it. He had just kind of made 91 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: it disappear over time, and initially I suppose by necessity, 92 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: and then once you've kind of assimilated, it's quite hard 93 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: to celebrate. And I think there was so much trauma 94 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: in his relationship with his heritage because of what he'd 95 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: been through growing up in the nineteen thirties in Berlin 96 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: as a child and seeing the Nazis really kind of 97 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: destroyed the world around him. No, my father is not 98 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say he's much of a cook, but my dad, 99 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: I think, um, he's really into these am I was 100 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: reflecting as I was about to come and talk to you, Ruthie. 101 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,239 Speaker 1: I think my grandfather, who came from Berlin, I think 102 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: the thing that I can trace from him that I've 103 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: inherited that. My dad certainly, how as is lots of pickles, 104 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: and there would always be pickles, all kinds of pickles. 105 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: And my dad is a big pickler. He will pickle that, 106 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: he will pickle pears, he will pickle onions. Is it Yeah, 107 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: I think it is. It was unusual that you have 108 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: a passion for Yeah, I never thought about that until 109 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: today German perhaps that influencer Brellin. When you have the 110 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: pickle the cabbage, oh, they will make sour crows. And 111 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: my dad always pickles red cabbage in the winter. So yeah, still, yeah, 112 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: I remember so clearly. I didn't go to Garner until 113 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: I was fourteen, and my first memory was stepping off 114 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: the plane and two things hit me. The first was 115 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: the heat, which I thought was the heat from the engines. 116 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: I thought they haven't turned off the plane engines yet, 117 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: still blasting me with hot air, and it was. It 118 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: took me a minute to realize that's just the air 119 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: temperature I've never been anywhere, and it's very humid as well. 120 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: It's a very humid tropical rainforest heat. And the second 121 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: thing was the smell, And the smell has never left 122 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: me and I still every time I go to Ghana, 123 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: um In instantly hit with this intoxicating smell, and I've 124 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: tried to work out what it is. I think it's 125 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: a combination of just heat and sea air because it's 126 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: very the capital is on the coast and it's it's 127 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: a quite rough Atlantic coast. There's a lot of sea 128 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: breeze and mist and salt in the air. And then 129 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: one of my favorite Ganean dishes, which because the BA 130 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: flight from Ghana lands basically at dusk, and at dusk 131 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: is when food vendors in the city start selling this 132 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: afterworks snack which they fry outside. It's called Kelly and 133 00:07:53,800 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: it's ripe plantain diced that seasoned with ginger, black pepper, tie, 134 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: a bit of nutmeg, chili and salt, and then it's 135 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: deep fried, absolutely delicious. I made some last night. Actually 136 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: season it first and then you do you season it, 137 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: and then you do take that and you eat it hot. Yeah, 138 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: you eat it hot. And it's street food. It's street food, 139 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: and that makes the entire city have a fragrance of 140 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: kind of slightly sweet spicy nut meggie air. And I 141 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: honestly think it's it's a little hint on the air 142 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: in a cr When you think about Ghana, because you've 143 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: been there quite often, do you also think about the 144 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: markets and the smells from the market. I love the 145 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: markets and remember asking David J about going to the 146 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: markets with his grandmother. Tell me your images of the market. 147 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: When I moved to Garner in two thousand eleven, my 148 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: daughter was six months old and my partner and I 149 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: decided we were going to move to Gardner and raise 150 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: her there for her first few years. And my grandmother 151 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: came with us, and so did my mother. So four 152 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: generations of women in my family rearing around a craw together. 153 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: And my grandmother took me to the market to go shopping. 154 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 1: And it's a really big food market called Bachana, and 155 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 1: there are these it's a problem, actually, there's so much 156 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: rural to urban migration and Garner. Lots of girls and 157 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: young women from quite poor parts of northern Ghanna have 158 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 1: migrated to the city and they they're called Kaya girls. 159 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: They carry these big buckets on their head and you 160 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: can basically pay them to follow you around the market. 161 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: It's not really safe work and they often sleep outside, 162 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: obviously very poorly paid. So I've never really been to 163 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: market and seen them before, so that was one thing 164 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: I really remember that. There was just so much going on. 165 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: There'll be fish, there'll be meat, vegetables, everybody's haggling, everybody's talking, 166 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: They'll be kind of little bits of the market where 167 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: they sell magical things, talisman's and weird bits of animals. 168 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: There's just a lot going on. But the thing I 169 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: remember is my grandmother haggling with the market vendors. And 170 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: I think if you didn't know Garner and you saw it, 171 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: you'd be worried that maybe a fight was about to 172 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: break out, because it it's very it looks very emotional, 173 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of hand gestures and very vexed 174 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: facial expressions and insults flying around. But actually I think 175 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: that's just how you do business. And I remember making 176 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: a vow to myself that day that I was going 177 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: to learn that language, because I felt like if you 178 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: can't speak that language, you just can't really get involved. 179 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 1: You know, English is just far too polite, just it's 180 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: not expressive enough. I just remember seeing my grandmother kind 181 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: of screwing up her face and waving her arms around 182 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: and thinking I need to be able to speak to 183 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: someone like that and embarrassed. I was determined that I 184 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: was going to be able to do it. And I 185 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: have my little daughter on my back in a cloth, 186 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: you know, which is the wagon and women carry their 187 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: children around, and I thought, I'm going to live here 188 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 1: and I'm going to learn this language. I'm still trying. 189 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 1: What are you write to now? What is your next project? 190 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: So I started my own TV production company, Good and 191 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: I'm working on a combination of documentaries and dramas. So 192 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: I'm I'm always challenging myself to try and reach a 193 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: different audience. And I love journalism. I will always, i think, 194 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: write newspapers and magazines. But I'm also noticing I think 195 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: the things that have often impacted me are fiction, novels, dramas, films. 196 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: And I'm really interested in reaching people so they think 197 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: about themselves culturally, not just intellectually. I think that a 198 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: lot of the change that really takes place on a 199 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: deep level is when something touches you very emotionally. And 200 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: I really want to take the message that I always 201 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: work towards. I really I care about justice and fairness, 202 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: you know. I think it's that the DNA of who 203 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: I am when you look at my family story, I've 204 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: inherited it on both sides, that yearning towards freedom. I 205 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: am really curious to see if I can reach people 206 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: through different mediums. So that's something that I'm really challenging 207 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: myself on at the moment. And what about the fact 208 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: that we're looking at a political situation here with Ukraine 209 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: and the fact that the effect of more will be 210 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: feeling the people of Africa because without the grain that 211 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: is meant to come through Ukraine too good world, but 212 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: particularly to northern Africa, there could be a huge TV 213 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: It's already impacting the whole continent of Africa because of 214 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: energy and oil prices. Again, Africa is a huge oil 215 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: producer but still relies on imported oil and gas. It's 216 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: a huge food producer that still relies so heavily on 217 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 1: imported grain. In One of the consequences of colonialism is 218 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: that African countries don't supply each other, they don't trade 219 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: with each other. Everything is designed for export to the 220 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: rest of the world because Africa was integrated into the 221 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: global economy as a place that you take from, and 222 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: that legacy exists in a very literal way. So one 223 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: of the challenges is that Africa's producing huge amounts of food, 224 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: but it's all getting shipped straight out of the continent, 225 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: and you have nations that are in food crisis coexisting 226 00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: with nations that produce food and abundance. So this has 227 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: got to be an opportunity for people to look again 228 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 1: at the structure of African economies. But it's you're you're 229 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: talking about four hundred years of colonial legacy. It's not 230 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: something you can easily overturned. But I think it's a 231 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: real wake up call to just how something that happens 232 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: in Europe or something that happens in Russia can have 233 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: a huge and immediate impact on people's lives on the 234 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,599 Speaker 1: afric continent. I was in Ghana the other day and 235 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: everyone's talking about Ukraine that the roads were had half 236 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: the traffic they usually do because people can't afford to 237 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: drive their cars. So that's the reality of globalization, and 238 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: I think we've got to start upping our game in 239 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: terms of making sure that countries are self sufficient as 240 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: much as possible. I was really sensitive, I think as 241 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: a child to where there was a sense of openness 242 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: for me, and you know, people now often ask me 243 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: why I self identify as black when I'm mixed racing. 244 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: You have one white parent one black parent, and I 245 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 1: self identify as black, and I suppose I have leaned 246 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: much more towards my Gaean heritage. And I think from childhood, well, 247 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,599 Speaker 1: it's two things. It's one because the world racialized me 248 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: as black, you know, and the colonial conditioning we've all inherited, 249 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: it's created this really nonsensical binary and categorize people, and 250 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: that was the category that was assigned to me from 251 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: an early age. But also, I think because Ghanian culture 252 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: is just so expansive, and you know, it welcomes everybody 253 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: and will over impress a sense of you have a 254 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: place and you have a role. And it was attractive 255 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: to me because it was a place that I could 256 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: feel part of something. Even though I should say one 257 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: of my earliest memories of being my grandmother's houses of 258 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: all of my aunties, when I say Auntie, you know, 259 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: all the women who came to the house laughing hysterically 260 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: at me when I tried to speak the language. So 261 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: they just thought it was very funny and they would 262 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: say they call me or Berny, which means white girl, 263 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: and they say that the white girls trying to speak 264 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: to you and it wasn't mean, it's just how And 265 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: still often are amused by the idea, who's something that 266 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: someone who has access to kind of you know, the 267 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: English establishment would choose to try and speak their language. 268 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: And I think that's the colonial hangover as well, that 269 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: you know, many Gnaians come here and encourage their children 270 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: not to speak their language, which just speak English. But 271 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: it's really sad because you can be bilingual and and 272 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: you don't need to downplay your heritage to succeed. So 273 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: I think that's a journey that many immigrant communities are 274 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: on well. Also in terms of food, you know, I 275 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: think that you know, you say that your grandmother identified 276 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: with cane and food, so she was cooking the food 277 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: of the culture. Maybe your mother adapted more And do 278 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: you think that she adapted more to be in the 279 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: situation she was in rather than bringing the food of 280 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: her culture. Did she only cook and food as well? No, 281 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: she definitely adapted more. And I think coming here as 282 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: a twelve year old, she had so much of her 283 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: formative life in Britain. But it's interesting and I've reflected 284 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: on it so much more lately that whenever my mom 285 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: was sick, she would say, I need food of my country, 286 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: and then she would make and she would always make 287 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: very specific things. She would make groundnut soup, which is 288 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: a soup made out of peanuts, ground peanuts, and it's 289 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: spicy with some kind of tomato broth with peanuts like 290 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: peanut butter in it with meat, but it's quite light. 291 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: And she would have that with ffoo, which is another 292 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: Guinean dumpling um that you used to kind of soak 293 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: up soup. And she would rarely make game food except 294 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: when she was either sick or suffering in some way, 295 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: and then it would be her definitely her comfort food, 296 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: and she would always say, I need food of my country. 297 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: And so it's it's always been. I think when you 298 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: strip away the layers at the at the root of 299 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: who she is. And I think having children and having 300 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: grandchildren has made her reflect on her and she she 301 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: does eat the language, and she does go back to Gharner. 302 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: But I think more frequently since I've become somebody who's 303 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: who's been so connected with Garner. So yeah, I think 304 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: her daughter and granddaughter have have have moved her back 305 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: more in that direction. Maybe then she would have anticipated 306 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: we've discussed the culture of food and the taste of 307 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: food and the family of food. That kind of brings 308 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: me to the political nature of food. And as we know, 309 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 1: during the pandemic, many children this school lunch and so 310 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: they didn't eat. And I think you said as well 311 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 1: that government and society shows itself in the way we 312 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: feed our children. And what are your thoughts about Parlty. 313 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: I feel so angry at the way that healthy and 314 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: nutritious foods have been turned into a luxury for the privilege. 315 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: I just think it's one of the scandals of our lives. 316 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 1: And when I was in my early twenties, I became vegan, 317 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: and you know, I'm I've had a privileged life, but 318 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: at the time I was training to be a barrister, 319 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: I had to borrow money to pay for my education. 320 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: I was living below the minimum wage, you know, and 321 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 1: as a barrister, people think you kind of enter into 322 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: this like super huch lifestyle. I earned ten thousand pounds 323 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: my first year at the bar, and I had tens 324 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: of thousands of pounds of debt to repay. It was 325 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: a real struggle at that stage of my life financially, 326 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: and I went vegan because I was starting to really 327 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: think about health and climate and I just couldn't believe 328 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: how expensive it was to feed myself on fresh and 329 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: whole foods. I really struggled. And that's an Oxford graduate 330 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: who's training to be a barrister, and it for me, 331 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: it was a real wake up call as to how 332 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: if you do try and do the right thing, and 333 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: you do try to be mindful of what you eat, 334 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: and you do make an effort to source things that 335 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 1: are grown locally or produced ethically, you price out the 336 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: vast majority of people. And that that was a period 337 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: that really radicalized me about how I'm fair. This was 338 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,239 Speaker 1: and also being part of the vegan community, which at 339 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: that time was very white and very privileged, and I 340 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: really didn't feel included in that community. And it really 341 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: made me think about why, you know, all of the 342 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: black people I knew, and people in underprivileged environs. I 343 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: was living in North London. You look look at the 344 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: area around me. Every child went to the chicken shop 345 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: after school and bought k chicken, which terrified me in 346 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: terms of its quality and um production. And then there 347 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: were all these kind of vegan and raw shops which 348 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: were for people who just had huge amounts of disposable income, 349 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: and I I think it's got worse, if anything, and 350 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: I feel really strongly about it. And I think there's 351 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: a you know, there's a there's a race aspect because 352 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: Black people in America and in Britain are massively overrepresented 353 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: in heart disease, strokes, diabetes, and struggle to get access 354 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: to high quality foods, and you know, it's just something 355 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: that I think it's just rarely talked about. It's interesting 356 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: during the pandemic who was There was a piece in 357 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: the New York Times and who sucked was a woman 358 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: and she said that if you want to know why 359 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: I have more African Americans are getting COVID and why 360 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: they're afraid to go to the hospital, it's one word, 361 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: and it's slavery. You know, that really looked back into 362 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: the history of what the experience of being a slave 363 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: in the United States was only you know, a hundred 364 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: and fifty years ago, and you were you weren't allowed 365 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: into hospitals, you didn't get to see doctors, you were fearful. 366 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: And with nutrition, it's in every poor community, black or white, 367 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: they don't get fresh vegetable there's a tendency also to 368 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: see that as an American phenomenon. But you know, Barbados 369 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: is the hypertensive capital of the world because Britain ran 370 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: its colonies in the Caribbean. It's slave plantation colonies the 371 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: same way and force people were force fed a diet 372 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: of sugar, and now you can actually trace the health 373 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: consequences of that in today's population of Caribbean heritage in Britain. 374 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: It's such a recent history people, it is still manifested 375 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: in people's bodies. And then then there's the other side, 376 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: which when I go to Ghana, which makes me raging 377 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 1: that Honor imports rice, tomatoes, so many foods that grow 378 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: naturally in Ghana that are not made profitable because the 379 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,360 Speaker 1: market is flooded with cheap imports from America, from Europe, 380 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: and instead of becoming a country that's allowed to be 381 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: self sufficient, all of these market forces, even aid has 382 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: been made conditional on African countries having to import cheap 383 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: products from Europe and America, and you can trace that 384 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: directly to the nutritional and financial problems that people there have. 385 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: It's really scandalous, and you know, I just I often 386 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: kind of wonder why we're not all up in arms 387 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: about it, but it never seems to be the priority. 388 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: And so what would you do? How do we reach 389 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: this government or the governments we've had every government? I mean, 390 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,239 Speaker 1: go to hospital and see the kind of food they 391 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 1: to schools and see what they feed children, you know, 392 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: go to food banks and see the food that is given. 393 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: I think, you know, we started this conversation by talking 394 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: about the political I think that we really need to 395 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: reconnect this with the political foundations of society. And I 396 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: think this is where we talk about class and we 397 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: talk about race. And it's so important to understand the history. Why, 398 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: um do people on lower incomes have access to such 399 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: bad food. There's this history behind it. There was a 400 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: decision that was made that um, people need to be 401 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: fed in a certain way to keep them in a 402 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: certain position. That African countries have deliberately been starved of 403 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: their own production to keep them subservient. And I don't 404 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: think you can understand one with understanding its history. And 405 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: these are systems that were created. You know, They're not 406 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: an accident, they're not something broken. They were designed. So 407 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 1: I don't think you can change it without going to 408 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: the root of why it was designed this way, and 409 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: people need to understand and feel angry about that. So 410 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: that's why I do the kind of storytelling I do, 411 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: because I think that without connecting these dots will always 412 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: just be superficially talking about improving school meals without actually 413 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: looking at the root of the class system. Whole education 414 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: system was designed to create factory workers for an industrial 415 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: society that doesn't even exist anymore. And that's the conversation 416 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: I don't see happening. It often feels like it's superficial, 417 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: you know, and really well intentioned. And this isn't to 418 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: undermine the work of the incredible activists who talk about 419 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: food and nutrition. It's so important, but I think that 420 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: joining it up with understanding how class and race works 421 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: and keeps people structurally in positions where they're not thriving 422 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 1: on purpose, I think that's really essential to understand. Um, 423 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: we spoke earlier about food and culture and food and 424 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: family and food and comfort. Your mother say she wanted 425 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: the comfort of her when she was sick, and she 426 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: wanted to eat food of her country. And so right 427 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: now you're writing and you're producing, and you're activism, and 428 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: there must be times when you are tired, you're feeling 429 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: whatever it is, and you do do need the comfort 430 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: of food. What food, um would you turn to? Dear? 431 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,719 Speaker 1: This was hard to pick because there are many foods 432 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: that comfort me. But I think I would have to 433 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: go when I when I think about in my house, 434 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: in my home, if we're having a low day, or 435 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,719 Speaker 1: it's cold and raining outside, or everyone's a bit tired, 436 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: the thing that I will make on demand is apple 437 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: and BlackBerry pie, especially in autumn, and I will I 438 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: grew up with a beautiful apple tree in my garden 439 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: and I don't have an apple tree in my garden anymore, 440 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: but I will try and buy apples locally, and we 441 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: even pick blackberries and Wimbledon commons some years. And that 442 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: is the because we have my my partner and my 443 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: daughter have slightly different taste to me, but the one 444 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: thing that unites us is the love of my apple pie. 445 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 1: So I think that might be my my ultimate comfort food. 446 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: And I'll even make custard, which is as English as 447 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: I know where to go delicious. It's so thank you, 448 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: so much, thank you, thank you. To visit the online 449 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: shop of The River Cafe, go to shop The River 450 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: Cafe dot co dot Ukka River Cafe. Table four is 451 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: a production of I heart Radio and Adam I Studios. 452 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i 453 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 454 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.