WEBVTT - Meeting Crazy in the Middle 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.560 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:18.279 Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.159 You know, folks, I'm always grateful, and I say this 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:24.040 at the top of my interviews with Jonathan, that we 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:28.200 have somebody whose work is to focus on gun violence 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:30.600 in this country and how to solve it, how to 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:36.680 have conversations that actually move push the needle and expand 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.200 people's minds. And you know, for that, I'm always grateful 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:45.199 to get into conversations, whether there is a headline that 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:49.519 is horrific and tragic about another mass shooting or not. 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:52.960 It's important to keep these conversations at the front of 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:56.840 our minds. And you know, as I talk to Jonathan today, 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:01.000 a better session that is taking place in Tennessee where 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:04.880 he is, where his university is, I keep thinking about 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:09.240 the fact that, you know, we're headed into right summer 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:12.399 is winding its way down. There's still several weeks left 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:14.679 of summer, but it is winding its way down. How 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:16.520 do I know this because I see back to school 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:18.440 commercials And as soon as I start to see back 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:23.720 to school commercials, it's like, you know, just so depressing. 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:29.560 Even still as an adult. But what makes me depressed 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:32.560 is not just the fact that summer is over, but 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:36.240 that the headlines of school shootings will be back in 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.880 the news because the only reprieve that we have from 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:43.120 school shootings is summer, right, is when kids are not 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.600 in school, or like we saw during quarantine and COVID, 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:52.200 when kids are at home. Right, it's the only time 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:56.320 that we don't see mass shootings. And so every year 0:01:56.800 --> 0:01:59.960 in September, I start to get a pit in my stomach. 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:03.360 And I don't have kids that I'm sending into the 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:07.680 school system. So I don't know, honestly how parents are 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:10.760 able to do it right. But they have no choice 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:13.880 because we don't have a system that is centered around care, 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:20.679 right and empathy and compassion. That's not how America works, right, 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:23.360 It's you know, cash rules everything around me, and the 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:27.120 NRA is the one that has the bank roll. So 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:32.040 in this conversation today with Jonathan, we talk about, you know, 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:36.360 kind of the art of conversation, what he experienced in 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:40.080 this pre session ahead of this legislative session that is 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:44.120 coming up in Tennessee in a few weeks, And I 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:46.320 ask the question, like, how do you come to the 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.960 table with people who are just crazy. How are we 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.320 supposed to meet in the middle with crazy? So that 0:02:53.440 --> 0:03:01.000 conversation with our fabulous in house doctor is coming up next, folks. 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:03.200 You know that whenever I have the opportunity to speak 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.120 with our in house doctor each and every week, the 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:11.880 doctor Jonathan Metzel, I am always thrilled. And Jonathan, you 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:18.480 have been a part of a event that took place 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.000 in Tennessee because there is a big session that is 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:24.160 coming up with regard to gun violence, and the folks 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:28.880 remember which feels like a million years ago, but it wasn't. 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:33.800 It was a few months ago that a religious school 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:39.440 in Tennessee was the latest in a slew of school shootings. 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.480 There were protests led by young people walk out. So 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.720 we learned about the Tennessee three and the two justins 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:50.520 that were expelled for their participation and their solidarity with 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:52.600 students that you know, don't want to be gunned down 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:56.880 in their classroom. Jonathan tell us the latest on what's 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:58.760 happening in Tennessee. 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:01.680 Well, thank you. I'm back in Brooklyn now, but I've 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:04.640 been in Tennessee all week and we had a big event, 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:09.840 the first of a number of events in Nashville a 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:15.360 couple of nights ago that we're just bringing together religious leaders, 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:21.000 congregants from temples and churches from around Nashville and just 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:26.039 really having conversations with everyday people and faith leaders about 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:28.440 what can be done. It's a really important time for 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:32.159 Nashville right now because, as you mentioned, August twenty first 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:36.839 of this month, there is what had initially been called 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:40.440 a special Session on gun violence. This story of this 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:42.280 for people who don't remember, As you mentioned, there was 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:46.640 a mass shooting at Covenant School in Nashville, which not 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:50.599 only was another horrific mass shooting at a school, but 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:52.480 it was one that really hit home for a lot 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:55.479 of people because a lot of people know people who 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:58.359 go to this school or send their kids to this school. 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:02.080 And it was also a school that followed all the 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:04.040 quote unquote rules. 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.440 About having armed people all that kind. 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:14.159 Of stuff, but a very again discrontled former student with 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:18.880 a grudge and easy access to multiple semi automatic weapons 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.000 that that person had purchased by just going around and 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.760 legally buying a bunch of ar fifteens, and so it's 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:28.520 set off a kind of what the hell are we 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:31.240 doing and how do we go here? Which many communities do. 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.400 We've had that conversation in Nashville after the waffle House 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:37.240 mass shooting in twenty eighteen, and this was kind of 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:41.920 like a man, enough is enough now. The other important 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:47.359 thing about this shooting was that Governor Lee had the 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:51.040 governor of Tennessee, had a personal connection to this shooting. 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:55.039 They have friends who were among the victims and who 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:59.360 worked there, and so it wasn't very far removed from 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:02.800 a lot of people, and so there was a lot 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.679 of protests. There was a lot of pressure and either 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:10.159 in a moment of bravery or calculation, it's kind of 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:12.960 hard to tell, right, they called a session and he 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:14.960 said we're going to have a session to talk about this. 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:18.960 So initially this was being billed as a session to 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.279 look at kind of what we can do, and people, 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.880 a bunch of us were asked to submit proposals and 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:27.040 what we can talk about. Do we need more red 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:31.320 flag laws, more background checks, more school safety. Obviously the 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.000 other side is saying, you know, armed teachers, more guards. 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:35.480 So it was going to be a kind of what 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:37.800 do we do and is this a moment where a 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.720 red state actually takes safety and public safety seriously about 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:46.920 this stuff? Particularly in schools and workplaces, and there's been 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:51.880 a lot of well, when the call came out, I mean, 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:54.440 the fact that the call came out is remarkable in 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:56.160 the first place, because there was a lot of pressure 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:58.600 from the right to cancel, and so a lot of 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.200 people were thinking, is this thing to be canceled because 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:06.840 the fire the right leaning Firearms Association in Tennessee said no, 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:09.360 we don't want to have this, so they called to 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:12.160 come out to call the legislators back to session a 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:15.600 couple of days ago. But people are noting that a 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:17.600 lot of the stuff that people thought this was going 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:23.360 to be about gun safety bridging divides is not on 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.520 the docket, and so it'll be really important and people 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.560 should really follow this space because again, on one hand, 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:33.200 it's important that this conversation is taking place, but is 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:36.040 this going to be something that just doubles down on 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:39.120 more guns and guns in schools that seems like a 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:41.920 real possibility, or is the place where we're going to 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:44.600 be able to have real conversations. And so that's kind 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:46.640 of what we're doing in Tennessee is having a bunch 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.520 of conversations leading up to this. A big one the 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:52.520 other night, another big one through the group millions of 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:56.640 conversations that's happening on the twentieth and then the sessions 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:57.440 on the twenty first. 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:01.280 Well, let me ask you this, because you know, I 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.120 am a true believer in conversation, right. I am a 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:07.920 true believer in people coming to the table. But what 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:12.800 I recognize about the Republican parties that they're nuts. 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:13.400 Right. 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:15.720 So it's like coming to the table with a crazy 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:20.520 person and expecting to have, you know, thoughtful conversation and 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:23.160 meet in the middle on issues. They tell me that 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:26.120 the sky is purple, and I tell them that the 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:27.960 sky is blue, and I'm supposed to meet them in 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:32.200 the middle. I feel as if there have been numerous occasions, 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:36.240 numerous school shootings, numerous mass shootings, where we said, oh, 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:37.720 this is going to be it, and we can come 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.560 to the table, we can have a conversation about sensible 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:45.680 gun laws, right, Tennessee, Like you said, this particular school, 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:50.360 they had an armed they had armed teachers, they had 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:53.319 armed security, They had all of the things that the 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:56.360 right tells us that we need just to have more guns. Right. 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:59.360 They had an active shooter drill. They had all of 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:03.000 these things, and nine people were still killed. Right, children 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:07.320 were still killed. And so when you say come to 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:11.120 the table or or this isn't going to necessarily be 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.840 what we thought it was, it's just like, where do 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:19.240 you think these conversations can go when you have one 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.760 party that is hell bent on murder? 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.760 Well, that's a great point. Let me let me take 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:28.760 you to what we did the other night, because the 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:32.120 panel we had was it was gun owners and non 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:37.240 gon owners, it was Republicans and Democrats and independents. And 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.480 I think a lot of people, at least this obviously 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.200 is a sample, a skewed sample, because if you're going 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:46.440 to go to a conversation about common cause on gun inform, 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.360 you already are selecting out the people who aren't going 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:51.240 to do it. But I do think that there was 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:56.600 a surprising level of frustration on across the board about 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.480 the relationship between It's just a lot of people feel 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:02.520 like this is a problem that every day people could 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:05.559 come up with better solutions for than elected leaders who 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:07.840 were in the pocket of the NRA, or judges who 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:10.320 are put in there to do the bidding of the NRA, 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:17.319 or who, for all we know, took twenty six paid vacations. 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.000 Did not Declarence Thomas over YEA thirty eight. 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:26.640 So I do think that the way we structured, at 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:30.040 least the conversation you asked about the conversation was we 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:32.440 started off the night and it was organized again by 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.080 this incredible group millions of conversations that tries to do 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.200 bridging the divide. So again I'm not saying this is 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.880 a sample totally because to go to this, you're going 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:42.640 to want to have the conversation. But the way the 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:46.760 night started was that people were at like fifteen different 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.360 tables of twelve people, and there were a bunch of 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:53.200 kind of icebreaker questions. Do you own guns, what do 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:55.760 you think about guns, What do you think about firearms? 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:57.720 Do you feel safe in your community? What makes you 0:10:57.720 --> 0:10:59.760 feel safe, what makes you feel unsafe? So we were 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:02.760 having these kind of conversations that were pretty surprising before 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.760 the event started. And then there was a panel of 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:10.680 three people, myself, David French, who's a columnist for the 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:14.560 New York Times but is a wrote for the National Review, 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.120 a Republican, a gun owner, has written in support of 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:20.280 gun rights, and he and I disagree because he's also 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:24.280 written in support of the bruined decision and the Supreme 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:30.160 Court recently in other places. And Jason Dempsey, who's a 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:37.120 former high ranking officer in the US military who's a 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:40.760 gun owner and a Democrat and supports gun control. So 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:44.120 we had three people kind of modeling a conversation who 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:47.240 were We were asked, how did you come to this topic, 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:49.200 what do you think can be done? Kind of things, 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:52.880 and we had a pretty open conversation about where we agreed, 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:55.880 where we disagreed, and that lasted about an hour, and 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.200 then people went back to the table and they did 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:02.440 take on points and calls for action, and one of 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:04.959 the calls for action was come up with talking points 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:07.400 and then bring them back to your community and make 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.520 a fifteen minute call or outreach or something like that. 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:15.680 So it's very community focused and just getting people to 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:18.360 talk to each other. Now again, I mean, I'm writing 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:20.040 a book about this very point, So I know. The 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:23.000 frustrating point here is it's not like we need more 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:25.400 conversation about this, Like eighty percent of people in the 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:29.120 country already agree about background checks and stuff. It's not 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.400 like we need more conversation. But I think the idea 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:35.679 is maybe this is a ground up kind of conversation 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:38.960 that needs to happen among other conversations. I know David 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.439 Hoague has started an organization yesterday that also looks more 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:48.000 at the electoral process. But I do think that I 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:51.960 guess I'm surprised, at least in these conversations how much 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.839 there are people who feel frustrated with the status quo, 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:57.000 which is something you wouldn't know if you didn't have 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:01.080 these conversations. So I mean, again, I take that with 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:02.760 a grain of salt, because I'm sure there are people 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.320 who live in Hungary and Russia and China who are 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:08.920 frustrated with the status quo. If you did, you know. 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.080 So that's not how fascism works, right, It's a top 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.480 down process. But I will say that at least in 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:18.840 our system, having these conversations that then maybe puts pressure 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:21.640 on people about the will of the people is an 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.920 important way to at least model and if not at 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.280 least understand how the other side thinks so that you 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.120 can better understand how to intervene. 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:35.040 How did the talking the drafting of the talking points go. 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.160 Were you able to see any of those that folks 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:41.120 came up with on their own, as opposed to, like 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:43.240 you said, it coming from the top down. 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:46.280 The story I told in my part of the channel. 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:48.480 When I was writing Dying of Whiteness, I was in 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:52.400 southern Missouri, and I came as a really kind of 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:55.920 openly as a liberal gun control person. But I wanted 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:58.720 to understand what guns meant in people's lives, and I 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.000 interviewed as people who know the book, I interviewed people 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.520 who had lost family members to guns suicide, and it 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:10.040 was they were incredible, like brave, remarkable survivor, people who 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:14.680 were suffering the most unimaginable loss you can think of. 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:19.400 But when I would they and they agreed to speak 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:21.440 with me, which I thought was incredible. I don't know 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.160 if I was in issues if I would if a 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:26.800 conservative Republican came to talk to me about something like this, 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.320 I don't know if I would do it or not, honestly, 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.760 but they were great. But when I would do the interviews, 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:36.200 I would go in and I'd you know, we talk 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:39.760 about the loss and what it meant and really horrible stories. 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:45.000 And then when they would say I would, I would 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:47.240 ask this question in the beginning of the interviews when 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:51.400 I started doing them, and it was did this experience 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.040 change the way you think about guns? Like losing a 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.960 child to gun suicide, and they would look at me like, 0:14:57.880 --> 0:14:59.840 you don't get it at all, do you. And that 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:01.640 that was the moment where I was kind of outed 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:06.360 as a liberal because what they said. You know, what 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.800 people would tell me is, you know, it's not the 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.520 gun's fault, or this is guns are part of our 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.600 religion or whatever. Now judgment aside about how people might 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.960 think about that answer. The point was, it's kind of 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:22.960 like if you're a really religious person and then somebody 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:25.680 you know, gets struck by lightning, and somebody gets interviewed 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:30.160 and they say, this outsider asks you, does this change 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:31.960 how you feel about God or something like that, And 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:34.880 what you find is when people suffer loss like that, 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:40.760 they actually become more ideological, more religious, more talismanic. And 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:44.440 so in a way, this was a question that identified 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.400 me as an outsider in a way, and they were like, no, 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.480 it doesn't change how I feel about guns. Guns are 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.680 my protector. It makes me think about responsible people or 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.840 something like that. So I actually changed that question when 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.560 I was doing the interviews. I would later ask what 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:03.280 can we do to better keep our families safe? You know, 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:03.960 just kind of. 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:07.120 Keep which is a totally different question, right, But for 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:10.160 you as a researcher, it is going to provide you 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:14.120 with some insight as to how people are thinking. But 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:18.280 the first question was one that would just shut people down. 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:21.400 Well because it identified like what I was asking them 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:24.120 was just having this horrible thing happened to you make 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.440 you want to become a Democrat. But I mean that's 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:28.480 how they heard it, and that's probably what I meant 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:32.000 in the beginning. And so I realized, like, oh, I'm 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:35.480 coming in with some preconceived assumptions that having this thing 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:38.080 happen will change people from point A to point B, 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.680 and I live at point B, and it was just 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:43.080 one of these things. It wasn't about a debate, It 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:45.240 wasn't about who you're going to vote for or anything 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:47.400 like that. It was just about people's life and loss 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:51.800 and mourning and trauma. And I realized, you know, I'd 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:53.800 need to learn better how to have this conversation if 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.480 I'm going to talk to people who don't agree with me, 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:58.880 but who also are the people who own guns and 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.440 support gun owners. And so that was the story I 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:04.200 told at the panel about how I learned a lesson 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.200 in my own research just about what it means to 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.320 talk to people about this. And I felt like it 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.719 was actually really instructive for me because my aim was 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:15.240 not to change their mind, it was to have the conversation. 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:17.760 But the way I asked the question, they heard it 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.760 as like, why won't you change your mind? And I 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.399 think for me that was the kind of story that 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:27.080 people were telling, Like how do other people think about 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:33.320 this when you have a gun? What do you imagine 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:35.200 that gun's going to do? Or what do you think 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:37.320 about gun owners? Like those kind of things that kind 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.680 of get people talking about assumptions, biases, and also about 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:43.040 the thing itself. I will say, if I have time, 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:44.840 just one other thing that happened out of this thing, 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:47.199 which is that they asked this question, and you know, 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:51.800 I go back and forth between Tennessee and Brooklyn, and 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:55.359 they said, how safe do you feel five on a 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:58.240 scale of five in your neighborhood? 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:00.240 By being the most safe. 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.720 And five being them was safe. And the other interesting 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:04.800 thing is I didn't realize I was going to say this, 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:10.000 but they said, and all these people were like, I 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:12.320 live in the suburbs, and I feel four out of 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:16.320 five safe because somebody could still come and attack me. 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.199 Or there could be a mass shooting or something. And 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:20.960 when it got to me, it's like, this is really weird. 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:22.760 And I hadn't thought about this before, but I split 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:27.520 time between Nashville and New York, and when I'm in Brooklyn, 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:29.760 I really feel five out of five safe for the 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.399 most part. I mean, there's bad stuff if you go 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:34.919 on like one of those apps, the crime apps, like 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:38.200 stuff's happening everywhere, but there are also like people around, 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.440 and there are gun laws, and there are bike lanes 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:43.720 and people are looking out for each other. Like I 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:45.880 have to say, I feel really pretty safe when I'm 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:47.439 in Brooklyn, Like there's just. 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:49.440 So did you say, did you say a five? 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:52.679 I said a five about Brooklyn? I did. I mean, 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:54.400 I know it's crazy because it's but I just feel 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:56.760 like there are people around. I mean, stuff can always happen, 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:00.320 and stuff's happened to you and to me, but somehow 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:02.879 I feel like I'm part of a system where there's 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:06.159 just like you're just there are people around, and somehow 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:07.440 I find that reassuring. 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:12.920 And I thought, I find that I feel absolutely the same. 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:16.400 I feel that if I were in a place where 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:20.840 let's say I'm in a I remember house sitting for 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:24.160 a former boss of mine who lived in like rural Maryland, 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.840 and his neighbor his next neighbor was you know, like 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:32.199 a mile away and either in either direction, and it 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.679 was so quiet, and I felt so unsafe. I was like, 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:38.320 if I were to scream, no one is going to 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:40.840 hear me. If like something happens, like, no one is 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:43.480 going to come to my aid. And I realized that 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.160 I felt like, and this is a product of living 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:48.800 in the city, is that I felt more comfortable and 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:51.399 more safe knowing that there's somebody on the other side 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:55.120 of the wall, whether up or down or next door, that, 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.000 like I muffled sounds is a comfort in me. 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.160 But also, like people think, it's not just about the noise. 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:05.119 It's about people think community, right, Like if you just 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.480 go on the subway and drop a dollar, twenty people 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:09.840 will say, hey, you dropped a dollar, you know, like 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.280 it happens all the time in a million different ways 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:14.640 in New York. And what I said the difference is 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:16.399 I live in a city in Nashville too. I have 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:18.879 an apartment in downtown in Nashville. And I said, but 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:21.640 in Nashville, I have like I feel a three out 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:27.520 of five because the system is not built for safety 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:30.800 right in Nashville. The example I gave is in New York, 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.320 there are bike lanes that are protected bike lanes pretty 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:35.159 much everywhere. I mean, I know people get hit all 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.280 the time on their bikes. But in Nashville, they just 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:41.320 paint a picture of the bike on the road so 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:43.119 that the cars are supposed to see you, but you're 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:45.720 actually there's no bike lane, so that it's just like 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:48.600 and so people get whacked all the time. Like there's 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:51.720 nobody saying like protected bike lanes in Nashville. There are 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:54.960 no gun laws in Nashville. And so I said, like, 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.280 I only feel a three out of five in Nashville 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.560 because like the system is set up. It's not a 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.760 public health system. It's like whoever has the biggest car 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:06.640 runs down the road and tough if you run over 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:09.639 a biker. That's kind of how it feels. And everybody 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:11.960 there freaked out and they're like what New York, that's 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:15.639 where like Biggie Small's just had that thing in Union 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:22.520 Square giving away, like you know, that's just they're like, oh, 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:27.040 that's whatever. It's like it's just like and conversely, you know, 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:30.399 people in New York. I mean whatever Nashville does, But 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:32.359 I just said Nashville feels less safe for me, and 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:34.680 I realized it's in part because of gun laws. Also 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:36.880 that there are just are no gun laws in Tennessee, 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:39.800 and so I feel like the chance of anything happening 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:42.280 in that regard just feels much higher there, and data 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:46.040 bears that out. And so I don't know, those kind 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:48.760 of conversations I found to be really helpful. You asked like, 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:51.399 how can we have conversations? But I think in a 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:53.600 way it was just kind of it was more usually 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:55.359 I just get up and give a lecture, and this 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:59.080 was let's talk openly and honestly, and then everybody would say, 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:01.000 here are the take on points I heard about what 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:02.879 you said, and here's how we can build off of it. 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:05.320 So I don't know, I thought it was kind of cool. 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:09.200