1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 2 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. 3 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,159 Speaker 1: You know, folks, I'm always grateful, and I say this 4 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: at the top of my interviews with Jonathan, that we 5 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: have somebody whose work is to focus on gun violence 6 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: in this country and how to solve it, how to 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: have conversations that actually move push the needle and expand 8 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: people's minds. And you know, for that, I'm always grateful 9 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: to get into conversations, whether there is a headline that 10 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: is horrific and tragic about another mass shooting or not. 11 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: It's important to keep these conversations at the front of 12 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: our minds. And you know, as I talk to Jonathan today, 13 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: a better session that is taking place in Tennessee where 14 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: he is, where his university is, I keep thinking about 15 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: the fact that, you know, we're headed into right summer 16 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: is winding its way down. There's still several weeks left 17 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: of summer, but it is winding its way down. How 18 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: do I know this because I see back to school 19 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: commercials And as soon as I start to see back 20 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: to school commercials, it's like, you know, just so depressing. 21 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: Even still as an adult. But what makes me depressed 22 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: is not just the fact that summer is over, but 23 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: that the headlines of school shootings will be back in 24 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: the news because the only reprieve that we have from 25 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: school shootings is summer, right, is when kids are not 26 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: in school, or like we saw during quarantine and COVID, 27 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: when kids are at home. Right, it's the only time 28 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: that we don't see mass shootings. And so every year 29 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: in September, I start to get a pit in my stomach. 30 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: And I don't have kids that I'm sending into the 31 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: school system. So I don't know, honestly how parents are 32 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: able to do it right. But they have no choice 33 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: because we don't have a system that is centered around care, 34 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:20,679 Speaker 1: right and empathy and compassion. That's not how America works, right, 35 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: It's you know, cash rules everything around me, and the 36 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: NRA is the one that has the bank roll. So 37 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: in this conversation today with Jonathan, we talk about, you know, 38 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: kind of the art of conversation, what he experienced in 39 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: this pre session ahead of this legislative session that is 40 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: coming up in Tennessee in a few weeks, And I 41 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: ask the question, like, how do you come to the 42 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: table with people who are just crazy. How are we 43 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: supposed to meet in the middle with crazy? So that 44 00:02:53,440 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: conversation with our fabulous in house doctor is coming up next, folks. 45 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: You know that whenever I have the opportunity to speak 46 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: with our in house doctor each and every week, the 47 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: doctor Jonathan Metzel, I am always thrilled. And Jonathan, you 48 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: have been a part of a event that took place 49 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: in Tennessee because there is a big session that is 50 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: coming up with regard to gun violence, and the folks 51 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: remember which feels like a million years ago, but it wasn't. 52 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: It was a few months ago that a religious school 53 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: in Tennessee was the latest in a slew of school shootings. 54 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: There were protests led by young people walk out. So 55 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: we learned about the Tennessee three and the two justins 56 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: that were expelled for their participation and their solidarity with 57 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: students that you know, don't want to be gunned down 58 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: in their classroom. Jonathan tell us the latest on what's 59 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: happening in Tennessee. 60 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I'm back in Brooklyn now, but I've 61 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: been in Tennessee all week and we had a big event, 62 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: the first of a number of events in Nashville a 63 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: couple of nights ago that we're just bringing together religious leaders, 64 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: congregants from temples and churches from around Nashville and just 65 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 2: really having conversations with everyday people and faith leaders about 66 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 2: what can be done. It's a really important time for 67 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 2: Nashville right now because, as you mentioned, August twenty first 68 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 2: of this month, there is what had initially been called 69 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: a special Session on gun violence. This story of this 70 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 2: for people who don't remember, As you mentioned, there was 71 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: a mass shooting at Covenant School in Nashville, which not 72 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 2: only was another horrific mass shooting at a school, but 73 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 2: it was one that really hit home for a lot 74 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 2: of people because a lot of people know people who 75 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 2: go to this school or send their kids to this school. 76 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: And it was also a school that followed all the 77 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 2: quote unquote rules. 78 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: About having armed people all that kind. 79 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 2: Of stuff, but a very again discrontled former student with 80 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 2: a grudge and easy access to multiple semi automatic weapons 81 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: that that person had purchased by just going around and 82 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 2: legally buying a bunch of ar fifteens, and so it's 83 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: set off a kind of what the hell are we 84 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 2: doing and how do we go here? Which many communities do. 85 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: We've had that conversation in Nashville after the waffle House 86 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 2: mass shooting in twenty eighteen, and this was kind of 87 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 2: like a man, enough is enough now. The other important 88 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 2: thing about this shooting was that Governor Lee had the 89 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 2: governor of Tennessee, had a personal connection to this shooting. 90 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 2: They have friends who were among the victims and who 91 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 2: worked there, and so it wasn't very far removed from 92 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 2: a lot of people, and so there was a lot 93 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,679 Speaker 2: of protests. There was a lot of pressure and either 94 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 2: in a moment of bravery or calculation, it's kind of 95 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: hard to tell, right, they called a session and he 96 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 2: said we're going to have a session to talk about this. 97 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: So initially this was being billed as a session to 98 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 2: look at kind of what we can do, and people, 99 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 2: a bunch of us were asked to submit proposals and 100 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: what we can talk about. Do we need more red 101 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 2: flag laws, more background checks, more school safety. Obviously the 102 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: other side is saying, you know, armed teachers, more guards. 103 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: So it was going to be a kind of what 104 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 2: do we do and is this a moment where a 105 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 2: red state actually takes safety and public safety seriously about 106 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 2: this stuff? Particularly in schools and workplaces, and there's been 107 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: a lot of well, when the call came out, I mean, 108 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: the fact that the call came out is remarkable in 109 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 2: the first place, because there was a lot of pressure 110 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 2: from the right to cancel, and so a lot of 111 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 2: people were thinking, is this thing to be canceled because 112 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 2: the fire the right leaning Firearms Association in Tennessee said no, 113 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 2: we don't want to have this, so they called to 114 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 2: come out to call the legislators back to session a 115 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 2: couple of days ago. But people are noting that a 116 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 2: lot of the stuff that people thought this was going 117 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 2: to be about gun safety bridging divides is not on 118 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 2: the docket, and so it'll be really important and people 119 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 2: should really follow this space because again, on one hand, 120 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 2: it's important that this conversation is taking place, but is 121 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 2: this going to be something that just doubles down on 122 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 2: more guns and guns in schools that seems like a 123 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: real possibility, or is the place where we're going to 124 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: be able to have real conversations. And so that's kind 125 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: of what we're doing in Tennessee is having a bunch 126 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: of conversations leading up to this. A big one the 127 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: other night, another big one through the group millions of 128 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: conversations that's happening on the twentieth and then the sessions 129 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 2: on the twenty first. 130 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you this, because you know, I 131 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: am a true believer in conversation, right. I am a 132 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: true believer in people coming to the table. But what 133 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: I recognize about the Republican parties that they're nuts. 134 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 2: Right. 135 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: So it's like coming to the table with a crazy 136 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: person and expecting to have, you know, thoughtful conversation and 137 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: meet in the middle on issues. They tell me that 138 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: the sky is purple, and I tell them that the 139 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: sky is blue, and I'm supposed to meet them in 140 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: the middle. I feel as if there have been numerous occasions, 141 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: numerous school shootings, numerous mass shootings, where we said, oh, 142 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: this is going to be it, and we can come 143 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: to the table, we can have a conversation about sensible 144 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: gun laws, right, Tennessee, Like you said, this particular school, 145 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: they had an armed they had armed teachers, they had 146 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 1: armed security, They had all of the things that the 147 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: right tells us that we need just to have more guns. Right. 148 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: They had an active shooter drill. They had all of 149 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: these things, and nine people were still killed. Right, children 150 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: were still killed. And so when you say come to 151 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: the table or or this isn't going to necessarily be 152 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: what we thought it was, it's just like, where do 153 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: you think these conversations can go when you have one 154 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: party that is hell bent on murder? 155 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 2: Well, that's a great point. Let me let me take 156 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 2: you to what we did the other night, because the 157 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 2: panel we had was it was gun owners and non 158 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: gon owners, it was Republicans and Democrats and independents. And 159 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people, at least this obviously 160 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 2: is a sample, a skewed sample, because if you're going 161 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 2: to go to a conversation about common cause on gun inform, 162 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 2: you already are selecting out the people who aren't going 163 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 2: to do it. But I do think that there was 164 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 2: a surprising level of frustration on across the board about 165 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 2: the relationship between It's just a lot of people feel 166 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 2: like this is a problem that every day people could 167 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 2: come up with better solutions for than elected leaders who 168 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 2: were in the pocket of the NRA, or judges who 169 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 2: are put in there to do the bidding of the NRA, 170 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 2: or who, for all we know, took twenty six paid vacations. 171 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: Did not Declarence Thomas over YEA thirty eight. 172 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: So I do think that the way we structured, at 173 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 2: least the conversation you asked about the conversation was we 174 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 2: started off the night and it was organized again by 175 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 2: this incredible group millions of conversations that tries to do 176 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 2: bridging the divide. So again I'm not saying this is 177 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 2: a sample totally because to go to this, you're going 178 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 2: to want to have the conversation. But the way the 179 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 2: night started was that people were at like fifteen different 180 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 2: tables of twelve people, and there were a bunch of 181 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 2: kind of icebreaker questions. Do you own guns, what do 182 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: you think about guns, What do you think about firearms? 183 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 2: Do you feel safe in your community? What makes you 184 00:10:57,720 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: feel safe, what makes you feel unsafe? So we were 185 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: having these kind of conversations that were pretty surprising before 186 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 2: the event started. And then there was a panel of 187 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 2: three people, myself, David French, who's a columnist for the 188 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 2: New York Times but is a wrote for the National Review, 189 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 2: a Republican, a gun owner, has written in support of 190 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 2: gun rights, and he and I disagree because he's also 191 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: written in support of the bruined decision and the Supreme 192 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 2: Court recently in other places. And Jason Dempsey, who's a 193 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: former high ranking officer in the US military who's a 194 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 2: gun owner and a Democrat and supports gun control. So 195 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 2: we had three people kind of modeling a conversation who 196 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: were We were asked, how did you come to this topic, 197 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 2: what do you think can be done? Kind of things, 198 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 2: and we had a pretty open conversation about where we agreed, 199 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: where we disagreed, and that lasted about an hour, and 200 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 2: then people went back to the table and they did 201 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 2: take on points and calls for action, and one of 202 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,959 Speaker 2: the calls for action was come up with talking points 203 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: and then bring them back to your community and make 204 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 2: a fifteen minute call or outreach or something like that. 205 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 2: So it's very community focused and just getting people to 206 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 2: talk to each other. Now again, I mean, I'm writing 207 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 2: a book about this very point, So I know. The 208 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: frustrating point here is it's not like we need more 209 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: conversation about this, Like eighty percent of people in the 210 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 2: country already agree about background checks and stuff. It's not 211 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 2: like we need more conversation. But I think the idea 212 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 2: is maybe this is a ground up kind of conversation 213 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 2: that needs to happen among other conversations. I know David 214 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 2: Hoague has started an organization yesterday that also looks more 215 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 2: at the electoral process. But I do think that I 216 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 2: guess I'm surprised, at least in these conversations how much 217 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 2: there are people who feel frustrated with the status quo, 218 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: which is something you wouldn't know if you didn't have 219 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 2: these conversations. So I mean, again, I take that with 220 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 2: a grain of salt, because I'm sure there are people 221 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 2: who live in Hungary and Russia and China who are 222 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 2: frustrated with the status quo. If you did, you know. 223 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 2: So that's not how fascism works, right, It's a top 224 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 2: down process. But I will say that at least in 225 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 2: our system, having these conversations that then maybe puts pressure 226 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 2: on people about the will of the people is an 227 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 2: important way to at least model and if not at 228 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: least understand how the other side thinks so that you 229 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 2: can better understand how to intervene. 230 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: How did the talking the drafting of the talking points go. 231 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: Were you able to see any of those that folks 232 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: came up with on their own, as opposed to, like 233 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: you said, it coming from the top down. 234 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 2: The story I told in my part of the channel. 235 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 2: When I was writing Dying of Whiteness, I was in 236 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 2: southern Missouri, and I came as a really kind of 237 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 2: openly as a liberal gun control person. But I wanted 238 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: to understand what guns meant in people's lives, and I 239 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: interviewed as people who know the book, I interviewed people 240 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 2: who had lost family members to guns suicide, and it 241 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 2: was they were incredible, like brave, remarkable survivor, people who 242 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 2: were suffering the most unimaginable loss you can think of. 243 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 2: But when I would they and they agreed to speak 244 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 2: with me, which I thought was incredible. I don't know 245 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 2: if I was in issues if I would if a 246 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: conservative Republican came to talk to me about something like this, 247 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 2: I don't know if I would do it or not, honestly, 248 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: but they were great. But when I would do the interviews, 249 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 2: I would go in and I'd you know, we talk 250 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 2: about the loss and what it meant and really horrible stories. 251 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: And then when they would say I would, I would 252 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: ask this question in the beginning of the interviews when 253 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 2: I started doing them, and it was did this experience 254 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 2: change the way you think about guns? Like losing a 255 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: child to gun suicide, and they would look at me like, 256 00:14:57,880 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 2: you don't get it at all, do you. And that 257 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 2: that was the moment where I was kind of outed 258 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 2: as a liberal because what they said. You know, what 259 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 2: people would tell me is, you know, it's not the 260 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 2: gun's fault, or this is guns are part of our 261 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 2: religion or whatever. Now judgment aside about how people might 262 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 2: think about that answer. The point was, it's kind of 263 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 2: like if you're a really religious person and then somebody 264 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: you know, gets struck by lightning, and somebody gets interviewed 265 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 2: and they say, this outsider asks you, does this change 266 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 2: how you feel about God or something like that, And 267 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: what you find is when people suffer loss like that, 268 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 2: they actually become more ideological, more religious, more talismanic. And 269 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 2: so in a way, this was a question that identified 270 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 2: me as an outsider in a way, and they were like, no, 271 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 2: it doesn't change how I feel about guns. Guns are 272 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: my protector. It makes me think about responsible people or 273 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 2: something like that. So I actually changed that question when 274 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 2: I was doing the interviews. I would later ask what 275 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 2: can we do to better keep our families safe? You know, 276 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: just kind of. 277 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: Keep which is a totally different question, right, But for 278 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: you as a researcher, it is going to provide you 279 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: with some insight as to how people are thinking. But 280 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: the first question was one that would just shut people down. 281 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 2: Well because it identified like what I was asking them 282 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 2: was just having this horrible thing happened to you make 283 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 2: you want to become a Democrat. But I mean that's 284 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: how they heard it, and that's probably what I meant 285 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 2: in the beginning. And so I realized, like, oh, I'm 286 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: coming in with some preconceived assumptions that having this thing 287 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 2: happen will change people from point A to point B, 288 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 2: and I live at point B, and it was just 289 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 2: one of these things. It wasn't about a debate, It 290 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 2: wasn't about who you're going to vote for or anything 291 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 2: like that. It was just about people's life and loss 292 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: and mourning and trauma. And I realized, you know, I'd 293 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 2: need to learn better how to have this conversation if 294 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 2: I'm going to talk to people who don't agree with me, 295 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: but who also are the people who own guns and 296 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 2: support gun owners. And so that was the story I 297 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 2: told at the panel about how I learned a lesson 298 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 2: in my own research just about what it means to 299 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 2: talk to people about this. And I felt like it 300 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,719 Speaker 2: was actually really instructive for me because my aim was 301 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: not to change their mind, it was to have the conversation. 302 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: But the way I asked the question, they heard it 303 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 2: as like, why won't you change your mind? And I 304 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 2: think for me that was the kind of story that 305 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 2: people were telling, Like how do other people think about 306 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 2: this when you have a gun? What do you imagine 307 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 2: that gun's going to do? Or what do you think 308 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 2: about gun owners? Like those kind of things that kind 309 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 2: of get people talking about assumptions, biases, and also about 310 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 2: the thing itself. I will say, if I have time, 311 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 2: just one other thing that happened out of this thing, 312 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 2: which is that they asked this question, and you know, 313 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 2: I go back and forth between Tennessee and Brooklyn, and 314 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 2: they said, how safe do you feel five on a 315 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 2: scale of five in your neighborhood? 316 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: By being the most safe. 317 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 2: And five being them was safe. And the other interesting 318 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 2: thing is I didn't realize I was going to say this, 319 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 2: but they said, and all these people were like, I 320 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 2: live in the suburbs, and I feel four out of 321 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 2: five safe because somebody could still come and attack me. 322 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 2: Or there could be a mass shooting or something. And 323 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 2: when it got to me, it's like, this is really weird. 324 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 2: And I hadn't thought about this before, but I split 325 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 2: time between Nashville and New York, and when I'm in Brooklyn, 326 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 2: I really feel five out of five safe for the 327 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 2: most part. I mean, there's bad stuff if you go 328 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 2: on like one of those apps, the crime apps, like 329 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 2: stuff's happening everywhere, but there are also like people around, 330 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 2: and there are gun laws, and there are bike lanes 331 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 2: and people are looking out for each other. Like I 332 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 2: have to say, I feel really pretty safe when I'm 333 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 2: in Brooklyn, Like there's just. 334 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: So did you say, did you say a five? 335 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 2: I said a five about Brooklyn? I did. I mean, 336 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 2: I know it's crazy because it's but I just feel 337 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: like there are people around. I mean, stuff can always happen, 338 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 2: and stuff's happened to you and to me, but somehow 339 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm part of a system where there's 340 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 2: just like you're just there are people around, and somehow 341 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 2: I find that reassuring. 342 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 1: And I thought, I find that I feel absolutely the same. 343 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 1: I feel that if I were in a place where 344 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: let's say I'm in a I remember house sitting for 345 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: a former boss of mine who lived in like rural Maryland, 346 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: and his neighbor his next neighbor was you know, like 347 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 1: a mile away and either in either direction, and it 348 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 1: was so quiet, and I felt so unsafe. I was like, 349 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: if I were to scream, no one is going to 350 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: hear me. If like something happens, like, no one is 351 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: going to come to my aid. And I realized that 352 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: I felt like, and this is a product of living 353 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: in the city, is that I felt more comfortable and 354 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: more safe knowing that there's somebody on the other side 355 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 1: of the wall, whether up or down or next door, that, 356 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: like I muffled sounds is a comfort in me. 357 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 2: But also, like people think, it's not just about the noise. 358 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 2: It's about people think community, right, Like if you just 359 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: go on the subway and drop a dollar, twenty people 360 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: will say, hey, you dropped a dollar, you know, like 361 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 2: it happens all the time in a million different ways 362 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 2: in New York. And what I said the difference is 363 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 2: I live in a city in Nashville too. I have 364 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 2: an apartment in downtown in Nashville. And I said, but 365 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 2: in Nashville, I have like I feel a three out 366 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 2: of five because the system is not built for safety 367 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 2: right in Nashville. The example I gave is in New York, 368 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 2: there are bike lanes that are protected bike lanes pretty 369 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 2: much everywhere. I mean, I know people get hit all 370 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 2: the time on their bikes. But in Nashville, they just 371 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 2: paint a picture of the bike on the road so 372 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 2: that the cars are supposed to see you, but you're 373 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 2: actually there's no bike lane, so that it's just like 374 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 2: and so people get whacked all the time. Like there's 375 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 2: nobody saying like protected bike lanes in Nashville. There are 376 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 2: no gun laws in Nashville. And so I said, like, 377 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: I only feel a three out of five in Nashville 378 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: because like the system is set up. It's not a 379 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 2: public health system. It's like whoever has the biggest car 380 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 2: runs down the road and tough if you run over 381 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 2: a biker. That's kind of how it feels. And everybody 382 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 2: there freaked out and they're like what New York, that's 383 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 2: where like Biggie Small's just had that thing in Union 384 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 2: Square giving away, like you know, that's just they're like, oh, 385 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 2: that's whatever. It's like it's just like and conversely, you know, 386 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 2: people in New York. I mean whatever Nashville does, But 387 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 2: I just said Nashville feels less safe for me, and 388 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 2: I realized it's in part because of gun laws. Also 389 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 2: that there are just are no gun laws in Tennessee, 390 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 2: and so I feel like the chance of anything happening 391 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 2: in that regard just feels much higher there, and data 392 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 2: bears that out. And so I don't know, those kind 393 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 2: of conversations I found to be really helpful. You asked like, 394 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 2: how can we have conversations? But I think in a 395 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: way it was just kind of it was more usually 396 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 2: I just get up and give a lecture, and this 397 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: was let's talk openly and honestly, and then everybody would say, 398 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 2: here are the take on points I heard about what 399 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 2: you said, and here's how we can build off of it. 400 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 2: So I don't know, I thought it was kind of cool. 401 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 2: No matter what happens from this possible quite possibly bogus 402 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 2: session on the twenty first. 403 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: I do think that it is important. One. I would 404 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: be really interested to see what the response is to 405 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: that question of safety, how safety you feel in you know, 406 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: pick a state and go to the rural area, the 407 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: city and the suburbs and ask that same question about 408 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: safety and how and how safe people feel, because it's 409 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 1: it's really interesting that everything is shaped by your perspective 410 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: and your lived experience, and that's what that's the beauty 411 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: of conversations are to understand other people's perspectives and like 412 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: how the world has shaped them right, so that you 413 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: can figure out, Okay, well, how do I really connect 414 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: with this person? Because the purpose is right in humanity, 415 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: is for us to be able to connect to one 416 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: another right and not just live a life of dismissal, 417 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: dismissing people and their opinions and their experiences. And so 418 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: for me, it's just like I think that that that 419 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: conversation is important. I think that all fucking like focused 420 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: groups to probably fit in on that sit in on 421 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: that conversation to figure out how to construct the questions 422 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: that they ask for the polls that they give us 423 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: on a regular basis. But Jonathan, you'll have to follow 424 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: up with us when this session actually does take place 425 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: to let us know what the outcome is and if 426 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 1: it is bogus as you're as you're thinking it is 427 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: going to be, or if it actually can be used 428 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: as a model for how we move forward in red state. 429 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 2: No, I think it's important. I mean, at the most 430 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 2: basic level, going to win a debate if you don't 431 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 2: understand the other person's perspective and talk to it. So, 432 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 2: even if it's strategic about why people are having these conversations, 433 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 2: I think they're important conversations to be having. But again, TVD, 434 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 2: on this session, we'll have to see that there's a 435 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 2: lot of people talking about it and paying attention to it, 436 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 2: so it'll be interesting to see what happens. 437 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: All right, Jonathan, we will leave it there and pick 438 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: it up again next week. 439 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 2: Thank what's new? What's my new sign off? Now? 440 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: Stay safe? I love puppies. 441 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, gogo go by the tree. 442 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, ride a bike safely in a real bike lane. 443 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: But we appreciate you. That is it for me today, 444 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: Dear friends on woke app as always Power to the 445 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: people and to all the people. Power, get woke and 446 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: stay woke as fuck.