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Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Laura and I Writer. In Season two

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Speaker 1: of False Confessions, we brought you the stunning story of

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Speaker 1: Tommy Ward, and unfortunately I have some sad news to

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Speaker 1: share about his case. In January twenty twenty one, a

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Speaker 1: district judge at the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals gave

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Speaker 1: us the news we were all hoping for and vacated

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Speaker 1: Tommy's conviction, but he waited in prison still while the

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Speaker 1: state appealed that decision. Sadly, justice hasn't yet been served.

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Speaker 1: This innocent man is still in prison. The state won

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Speaker 1: their appeal reinstating Tommy's conviction in twenty twenty two, and

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Speaker 1: as of this update, Tommy and his legal team are

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Speaker 1: preparing to file again with the federal courts. Tommy, We're

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Speaker 1: all hoping that the courts get it right this time

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Speaker 1: and grant you the freedom you deserve. Keep fighting and

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Speaker 1: stay strong. Welcome to Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions. I'm Laura

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Speaker 1: and I Writer, and I'm Steve Dressing. In nineteen eighty four,

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Speaker 1: a woman from Ada, Oklahoma, went missing. A few months later,

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Speaker 1: a man named Tommy Ward told police that he'd had

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Speaker 1: a bad dream about her murder. Incredibly, the police took

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Speaker 1: that dream and turned it into a false confession. Tommy

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Speaker 1: Ward's story has fascinated the world. In two thousand and six,

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Speaker 1: the author John Grisham wrote a book about Tommy and

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Speaker 1: his co defendant, Carl Fontaneau. John's career as a writer

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Speaker 1: was changed by Tommy and Carl's case, but he's not

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Speaker 1: the only one who's been moved by it. A few

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Speaker 1: years ago, their story was made into a Netflix global

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Speaker 1: series called The Innocent Man. Now the whole world has

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Speaker 1: been moved too. It's our honor to be part of

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Speaker 1: the fight to exonerate Tommy Ward and Carl Fonteneau. Here's

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Speaker 1: hoping we can deliver a wake up call in this

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Speaker 1: nightmare of a case.

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Speaker 2: I'm John Grisham, author of a number of legal thrillers

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Speaker 2: and one work of nonfiction. About fifteen years ago, I

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Speaker 2: found myself in Ada, Oklahoma, doing the research for a

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Speaker 2: nonfiction book that was eventually titled The Innocent Man. It's

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Speaker 2: just a truly fascinating case because there were no clues,

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Speaker 2: there were no witnesses, there was no body, there was

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Speaker 2: no corpse, there was no murder weapon, there was nothing

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Speaker 2: for Tommy Wiard confessed to the crime, and from.

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Speaker 3: That moment on he was a guilty man.

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Speaker 2: The judge allowed this case to go forward without a body.

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Speaker 2: Even on my most creative days, I'm not sure I

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Speaker 2: could create stuff like this.

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Speaker 3: Once I started researching Tommy's case Carl's case, I realized

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Speaker 3: that there are thousands of innocent people in prison, and

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Speaker 3: I've never realized that before. At that point I moved away,

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Speaker 3: for the most part, from suspense intrigue thrillers to something

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Speaker 3: still similar but much more issue driven capital punishment, wrong

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Speaker 3: for confiction, mass incarceration, the issues I care about in

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Speaker 3: the criminal justice system and the injustices that we tolerate

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Speaker 3: when we could fix this stuff if we had the will.

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Speaker 4: To do it.

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Speaker 2: So, the Tommy Willard Carl Fontina case had a profound

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Speaker 2: impact on me as a writer.

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Speaker 1: You know, Steve John Grisham's right in this case, the

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Speaker 1: truth really is stranger than fiction. This is one of

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Speaker 1: the most bizarre kinds of false confessions you can imagine.

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Speaker 4: This case is fascinating because it is about a dream

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Speaker 4: that is converted by police officers into a confession. Cases

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Speaker 4: like this are extremely.

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Speaker 1: Rare, right, I mean, how many dream cases do you

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Speaker 1: know about.

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Speaker 4: I've studied hundreds of false confessions and maybe there's a dozen.

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Speaker 1: Of them to our listeners. If you haven't heard this story,

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Speaker 1: get ready, it's an incredible one. If you have read

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Speaker 1: John Grisham's book or seen the Netflix series, we have

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Speaker 1: some new developments to share with you.

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Speaker 4: Because attorneys at the Center on Wrongful Convictions, the organization

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Speaker 4: You and I Codirect have uncovered new information that makes

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Speaker 4: it clear that Tommy Ward is innocent, but.

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Speaker 1: He's still in prison. He's been there for thirty five years.

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Speaker 1: He needs to come home now, right now. Tommy's story

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Speaker 1: starts in the town of Ada, a rural Oklahoma community

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Speaker 1: of about seventeen thousand people. It's a Bible belt town

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Speaker 1: where the churches are full but the factories are empty.

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Speaker 1: In Aida, poverty can sometimes make justice seem like a

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Speaker 1: faraway dream. In nineteen eighty four, Denise Harroway was one

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Speaker 1: of Ada's seventeen thousand people. Denise was twenty four years old,

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Speaker 1: a petite, blonde woman who'd recently gotten married. She was

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Speaker 1: enrolled in college and helped pay tuition by working the

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Speaker 1: evening shift by herself at mckinellly's convenience store, but when

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Speaker 1: customers walked into mcinally's at eight fifty pm on April

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Speaker 1: twenty eighth, they found an open cash register and no

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Speaker 1: attendant in sight. Denise had vanished. There'd be no sign

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Speaker 1: of her for a year and a half. Ada police

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Speaker 1: started investigating Denise's disappearance, and right away they suspected foul play.

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Speaker 1: A customer who'd been at mcinally's earlier that evening told

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Speaker 1: police he'd seen Denise leave the store with a strange

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Speaker 1: man who drove her away in a pickup truck. Police

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Speaker 1: also spoke to a female clerk at a different nearby

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Speaker 1: convenience store. She reported that a few hours before Denise disappeared,

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Speaker 1: two men came into her store. They were rowdy, she said,

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Speaker 1: and kept buying alcohol. They made her nervous. She gave

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Speaker 1: the cops some rough descriptions, and a police artist made

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Speaker 1: two composite sketches. In terms of evidence, that was it.

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Speaker 1: No one knew what happened to Denise. There was no body,

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Speaker 1: no sightings, no nothing. Police showed the composite sketches on

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Speaker 1: TV and asked for the public's help. Dozens of tips

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Speaker 1: were phoned in a few callers thought that the sketches

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Speaker 1: looked a little bit like a twenty four year old

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Speaker 1: Ada man named Tommy Ward.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 1: The Ward family was poor. They lived on Ada's South Side,

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Speaker 1: in the part of town that everyone knew was on

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Speaker 1: the wrong side of the tracks. Growing up, there were

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Speaker 1: eight kids in the house. Tommy was number seven. Everyone

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Speaker 1: children included was expected to pitch in to keep the

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Speaker 1: lights on and the rent paid. The older kids would work,

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Speaker 1: the younger kids would spend hot Oklahoma summers walking along

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Speaker 1: the highway searching for empty beer cans that they could

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Speaker 1: turn in for a five cent deposit. The Wards were

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Speaker 1: a law abiding family. When Tommy was a teenager, he'd

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Speaker 1: been arrested a few times for petty crimes like public drunkenness,

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Speaker 1: but nothing serious. The idea of him suddenly kidnapping Denise

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Speaker 1: Harroway was pretty crazy. Despite this, police brought Tommy in

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Speaker 1: for questioning just a few days after Denise's disappearance. Tommy

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Speaker 1: told them he had nothing to do with Denise. In fact,

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Speaker 1: he said on the night she disappeared, he was at

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Speaker 1: a keg party out of town twenty five miles away.

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Speaker 1: Police released Tommy and tracked down some other partygoers, several

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Speaker 1: of them confirmed Tommy's alibi, but police also caught wind

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Speaker 1: of a rumor that had been spreading around town. Tommy

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Speaker 1: supposedly told others at the party that he'd done something terrible.

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Speaker 1: That one word was apparently enough to make the cops

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Speaker 1: think that Tommy had killed Denise. They bring Tommy back

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Speaker 1: to the station months later, on October eighteenth, nineteen eighty four,

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Speaker 1: for what would become nine hours of interrogation. Who killed

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Speaker 1: that girl? Did you kill her? You thought she was pretty,

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Speaker 1: didn't you. The questions come fast and furious, but Tommy

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Speaker 1: still denied having anything to do with Denise's disappearance. He

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Speaker 1: reminds his interrogators of his alibi, but they administer a polygraph.

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Speaker 1: They falsely tell Tommy that it proved he'd been lying.

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Speaker 1: That's when the interrogation turns nightmarish. Tommy tells the cops

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Speaker 1: that maybe he failed the polygraph because he was nervous.

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Speaker 1: In fact, he says, knowing he was a suspect in

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Speaker 1: this case had upset him so much that he had

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Speaker 1: a bad dream. Tell us about your dream, the police say,

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Speaker 1: and Tommy does. In the dream, Tommy was out by

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Speaker 1: Ada's local power plants, sitting in a pickup truck with

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Speaker 1: three people he didn't know, two men and a woman.

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Speaker 1: One of the men tried to kiss the woman and

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Speaker 1: Tommy told him to back off. Then Tommy said he

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Speaker 1: wanted to go home. You're already home, the man answered. Suddenly,

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Speaker 1: Tommy was standing at his kitchen sink trying to scrub

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Speaker 1: a dark liquid off his hands. The cops pounced. They say,

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Speaker 1: matches the facts of the case. There's a pickup truck

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Speaker 1: in your dream, and we believe Denise was kidnapped in

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Speaker 1: a pickup truck. It doesn't make sense to say this

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Speaker 1: was just a dream. They say. You know what does

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Speaker 1: make sense, you and these other two men killing Denise.

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Speaker 1: So where did the story in Tommy's dream come from?

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Speaker 1: Turns out a few days before this nine hour interrogation,

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Speaker 1: police had briefly talked to Tommy, and during.

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Speaker 4: That questioning, the police officers said to Tommy, use your

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Speaker 4: imagination for just a moment. This girl was taken out

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Speaker 4: of a grocery store at night. Two guys come in

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Speaker 4: and got her, and they'd gotten a pickup and they

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Speaker 4: drove away. A beautiful girl like that. Maybe they raped

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Speaker 4: her before they killed her. That is a direct quote

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Speaker 4: from these detectives. The police officers had planted the core

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Speaker 4: ideas of this crime in Tommy's mind, including the pickup truck,

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Speaker 4: which remember as a detail that a witness had already

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Speaker 4: told them about, and Tommy began to have nightmares about

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Speaker 4: the story the police told him.

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Speaker 1: The interrogation continues for hours. Police tell Tommy he'll get

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Speaker 1: the death penalty if he doesn't confess to killing Denise. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: Tommy caves. He starts changing his dream to include what

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Speaker 1: the police tell him. In his dream, he says he

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Speaker 1: did recognize the other guys. They were two eight of

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Speaker 1: men named Carl Fontaneau and Odell Titsworth. He dreamed that

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Speaker 1: they'd robbed Mcanelli's together, that they'd kidnapped Denise and raped

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Speaker 1: her in a pickup truck. They stabbed her in the

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Speaker 1: dream too, he says, and left her body in a

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Speaker 1: culvert by the power plant. After nine hours of this,

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Speaker 1: police bring in a video camera. According to Tommy, they say,

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Speaker 1: time to cut the dream. Bullshit. This wasn't something you dreamed,

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Speaker 1: it was something you did.

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Speaker 2: Tommy. You have the power plant where nay share? Why

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Speaker 2: did you go to the para plant It's worth and

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Speaker 2: pulled over.

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Speaker 1: Tommy finds himself repeating the whole story on camera, not

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Speaker 1: as a dream, but as cold hard reality.

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Speaker 4: It was the first person in the door.

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Speaker 2: Did he have any weapons?

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Speaker 4: They told me that he was going to kill her.

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Speaker 5: That's where got out.

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Speaker 2: To you understand how serious this investigation is.

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Speaker 1: Incredibly, the police have transformed Tommy's dream into a murder confession.

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Speaker 4: Let's talk a little bit about dream statements. You know,

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Speaker 4: there comes a point in every interrogation where the police

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Speaker 4: officers have tried to get the suspect to confess, and

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Speaker 4: the suspect just says, well, I have no memory of

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Speaker 4: committing this crime, or I can't help you. I wasn't there.

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Speaker 4: And then either the police officers suggest to the suspect

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Speaker 4: have you had any dreams about this case? Or the

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Speaker 4: suspect will suggest on his own accord, you know, I

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Speaker 4: have had some dreams about this And what that does

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Speaker 4: is it gives police officers something to exploit. It allows

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Speaker 4: the conversation to continue, and the police officers end up

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Speaker 4: converting what was a dream into a confession.

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Speaker 1: During Tommy's videotaped statement, the only lingering reference to any

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Speaker 1: of this being a dream comes at the very end.

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Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want to add? Police ask him.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was just a dream. Tommy quietly says he.

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Speaker 4: Always thought that the police officers would recognize this is

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Speaker 4: not reality. Go out investigate the case, and you're going

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Speaker 4: to find out that this is all a bunch of horseship.

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Speaker 1: Based on his so called confession, Tommy Ward found himself

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Speaker 1: in jail, charged with capital murder, and the investigation that's

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Speaker 1: to come, well, horseshit is exactly the right word.

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Speaker 5: I was stationed on an aircraft current when my sister

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Speaker 5: called and started telling me that they got Tommy for this.

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Speaker 4: It was not a good day.

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Speaker 1: That's Melvin Ward, one of Tommy's older brothers. He was

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Speaker 1: in the service when he found out that Tommy had

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Speaker 1: been arrested, and he flew back to Ada right away.

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Speaker 5: I did not believe it. I thought, well, you know,

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Speaker 5: he's going to get awf on this because I know

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Speaker 5: he didn't do it. It's not Tommy's character to do

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Speaker 5: something like this.

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Speaker 4: He was not a bad kid.

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Speaker 5: He'd never heard anybody. He'd stayed out of trouble other

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Speaker 5: than a few public drunks. Tommy would have been the

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Speaker 5: kind of person that if somebody was attacking this lady,

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Speaker 5: he would have been there to protect her.

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Speaker 4: That's Tommy.

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Speaker 5: Tommy did nothing for them to go after him like

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Speaker 5: they did, other than we living on another side track.

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Speaker 5: We was not in the proper society at the time.

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Speaker 5: They believed that Tommy was guilty and they was going

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Speaker 5: to pull no stops to get into confess, and that's

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Speaker 5: not proper police work at all.

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Speaker 1: Tommy wasn't the only person from the wrong side of

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Speaker 1: the tracks who got ensnared in this case. Within hours,

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Speaker 1: police arrest Tommy's dream accomplices, Carl Fontano and Odell Titsworth

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Speaker 1: and questioned them both. Carl was twenty years old, a

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Speaker 1: friend of Tommy's who was seriously intellectually disabled and pretty

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Speaker 1: much alone in the world.

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Speaker 5: Carl was a nice guy. I know my mom liked him,

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Speaker 5: and my mom bless her heart, she was a good

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Speaker 5: judge character. At the time, she was working at one

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Speaker 5: of the convenience stores down there in Ada, and the

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Speaker 5: kid would come in and he didn't have much of

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Speaker 5: the family. She would give him a sandwich from a

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Speaker 5: the story every now and then and I think Tommy

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Speaker 5: met Carl by he was sleeping on my sister's front porch.

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Speaker 5: Tommy kind of took Carl on his wing, and uh,

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Speaker 5: they become friends.

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Speaker 1: To understand how Carl's interrogation went down, you need to

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Speaker 1: know that a few months earlier, Carl had witnessed his

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Speaker 1: own mother's death. The two of them had been driving

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Speaker 1: on the highway when their car broke down. Carl's mom

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Speaker 1: got out and headed for a nearby restaurant to call

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Speaker 1: for help, but as she was crossing the highway, she

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Speaker 1: was hit and killed by another car. Carl felt terrible guilt.

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Speaker 1: He blamed himself for not being the one who'd gone

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Speaker 1: for help. It was that sense of guilt, along with

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Speaker 1: his disability, that police used to manipulate Carl during his interrogation.

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Speaker 1: The police suggested that Carl should make amends for his

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Speaker 1: mom's death by saying he was involved in Denise's death.

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Speaker 4: Can you imagine the trauma he must have been experiencing

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Speaker 4: he saw his mother die. The police officers used that

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Speaker 4: prior traumatic event to help break down Carl into accepting

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Speaker 4: responsibility for Denise's death, and he caved much sooner than

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Speaker 4: Tommy did.

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Speaker 1: Just like with Tommy. Police took a videotaped statement from Carl.

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Speaker 1: In it, he agreed that he helped Odell Titsworth and

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Speaker 1: Tommy Ward rape and stabbed Denise.

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Speaker 4: Carl, let me ask you this, at any point in time,

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Speaker 4: did you stab her? No?

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Speaker 2: I did not, nor did Tommy Odell done all this

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Speaker 2: day right there?

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Speaker 4: Did y'all try to stop him from stander?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: Carl even said they'd burned her body afterwards.

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Speaker 2: Who spread the gas?

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Speaker 4: Odell?

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Speaker 2: He poured all the gas on her air side and

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Speaker 2: went threw the match on her and walked out, and

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Speaker 2: then I asked to burn up on either side.

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Speaker 1: Based on this confession, Carl Fontaneau was charged with Denise's death,

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Speaker 1: right alongside Tommy.

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Speaker 5: Knowing that Tommy was innocent. That made me know that

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Speaker 5: Carl was innocent. Tommy, it took him almost nine hours

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Speaker 5: to break him down, and Carl he was a little

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Speaker 5: bit more acceptible to their interrogation. Now they could higher

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Speaker 5: in forty five minutes.

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Speaker 1: But the supposed third guy, Odell Titsworth, well, he's another story.

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Speaker 1: Odell was a four time convicted felon with experience in

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Speaker 1: the interrogation room. When police questioned him about Denise. He

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Speaker 1: doesn't budge an inch. I don't care what Ward and

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Speaker 1: Fontineau say. He insists I had nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: Denise's disappearance. Now Odell is thrown in jail anyway, but

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Speaker 1: pretty soon it becomes clear that he's got a great alibi.

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Speaker 1: Two days before Denise's disappearance, Odell had an altercation with

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Speaker 1: the police and they'd broken his arm badly. On the

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Speaker 1: night Denise disappeared, Odell Titsworth was laid up with a

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Speaker 1: spiral fracture struggle with a grown woman, hold her down

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Speaker 1: and rape her, stab her. It was physically impossible. Odell

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Speaker 1: was cleared.

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Speaker 5: This is one point I've always trying to wrap around

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Speaker 5: people's head. If they were not being fed information, how

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Speaker 5: did both of them boys come up with a totally

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Speaker 5: innocent man's name. He can't happen, see what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: While Odell Titsworth got to go home, Tommy and Carl

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Speaker 1: weren't so lucky. Prosecutors pressed forward with cases against Tommy

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Speaker 1: and Carl, even though their confessions turned out to be

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Speaker 1: wildly different. The confessions didn't agree on who raped Denise,

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Speaker 1: where she was stabbed, or when she died, and when

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Speaker 1: it came to the big question where was Denise? The

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Speaker 1: confessions disagreed there too. Remember, Tommy said they'd left her

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Speaker 1: body in a culvert near the power plant, but Carl

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Speaker 1: said they'd burned Denise's body in an abandoned house, and

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Speaker 1: then they burned the house down too. The authorities checked

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Speaker 1: out both stories, but they found no sign of Denise

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Speaker 1: in either the culvert or the abandoned house. In fact,

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Speaker 1: Carl's abandoned house actually burned down ten months before Denise disappeared.

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Speaker 1: Their confessions just didn't match reality. In a last ditch

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Speaker 1: effort to get Carl to clean up his story, police

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Speaker 1: try something pretty outrageous.

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Speaker 4: So Carl is sitting in jail, he's just confessed to

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Speaker 4: this crime, and the police officers go to a local

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Speaker 4: university and gather a bunch of.

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Speaker 1: Bones from the science lab human bones.

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Speaker 4: And they bring this bag of bones into the jail

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Speaker 4: and they say, we found Denise Haraway's skull where you

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Speaker 4: said it was, but we can't find the rest of

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Speaker 4: her body. And Carl can't answer the question. He says,

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Speaker 4: I wish I could help, but I don't know where

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Speaker 4: her body is Carl's terrified.

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Speaker 1: He can't tell him a thing.

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Speaker 4: I mean, what the fuck is this. I've never seen

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Speaker 4: this before, Lara, this is just beyond the pale.

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Speaker 1: Carl and Tommy were tried together on September twenty fourth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five. At trial, prosecutors called a mcinally's customer

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Speaker 1: named James Moyer. Moyer testified that he'd seen someone who

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Speaker 1: looked like Tommy Ward in the store an hour before

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Speaker 1: Denise disappeared. That's pretty thin evidence, but the prosecutors had more.

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Speaker 1: As the centerpiece of the trial, they played Tommy and

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Speaker 1: Carl's confession tapes for the jury. Prosecutors conceded that, sure,

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Speaker 1: Tommy and Carl got a lot of things wrong, Sure

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Speaker 1: their confessions were false when it came to Odell's involvement,

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Speaker 1: and sure the facts that they seemed to get right,

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Speaker 1: like the pickup truck, had been fed to them by

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Speaker 1: their interrogators. But set all that aside, prosecutors said, we've

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Speaker 1: got proof. They said that Tommy and Carl's confession are reliable,

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Speaker 1: a real ace in the hole. So what was that proof?

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Speaker 1: Prosecutors argued that Tommy and Carl's confessions could be trusted

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Speaker 1: because they both accurately described what Denise was wearing the

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Speaker 1: night she disappeared. During Tommy's confession, he said Denise was

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Speaker 1: wearing a button up blouse with little blue roses on

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Speaker 1: it and lace on the collar and sleeves. Similarly, Carl

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Speaker 1: had said she was wearing a button up blouse with

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Speaker 1: ruffles on the collar and elastic on the sleeves. Now,

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Speaker 1: prosecutors said at the time of the confessions the police

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Speaker 1: had no idea what Denise had been wearing, so the

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Speaker 1: interrogators couldn't have fed details about the blouse to Tommy

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Speaker 1: and Carl. The only explanation for Tommy and Carl's matching

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Speaker 1: stories was that they had both actually been with Denise

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Speaker 1: that night. To really clinch the case, Denise's sister took

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Speaker 1: the stand and revealed that Denise did own a blouse

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Speaker 1: with blue flowers and a lacey ruffled collar. Also after

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Speaker 1: Denise disappeared, the sister reported that that blouse was missing

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Speaker 1: from Denise's closet. Denise's sister said she hadn't told police

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Speaker 1: about the missing blouse until after Tommy and Carl confessed.

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Speaker 4: Going into trial, the police and prosecutors have two confessions

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Speaker 4: that are at odds with the objectively noble facts of

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Speaker 4: the crime. There's no corroboration of this confession, and it's

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Speaker 4: filled with errors, But the police have one fact that

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Speaker 4: is the anchor of their case. The defense counsel had

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Speaker 4: no explanation for why both Tommy and Carl independently had

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Speaker 4: described Denise's missing blouse the same way.

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Speaker 1: That anchor ended up taking both Tommy and Carl down.

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Speaker 1: On day thirteen of the trial, the jury returned a verdict.

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Speaker 1: Both men were guilty of murdering Denise Harroway. Shortly afterwards,

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Speaker 1: the judge sentenced Tommy Ward and Carl Fontana to death.

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Speaker 5: The district attorney got a conviction on his boys because

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Speaker 5: the description of the shirt that supposedly no one knew

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Speaker 5: at the time of their confessions. I knew that Tommy

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Speaker 5: and Carl was but having tom and Carl both to

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Speaker 5: say something about that shirt that was a pretty hard

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Speaker 5: thing to get passed.

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Speaker 4: These men were sentenced to death on the basis of

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Speaker 4: a single fact, a description of a blouse. Tommy and

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Speaker 4: Carl were able to lead police to evidence that they

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Speaker 4: didn't already have. I mean, these are the kinds of

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Speaker 4: facts that you and I look at when we assess

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Speaker 4: the reliability of a confession, Laura, and if police don't

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Speaker 4: know information and the suspect leads them to it, that's

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Speaker 4: a red flag for a reliable confession.

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Speaker 1: How could Tommy and Carl have been wrong about so

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Speaker 1: many facts yet right about this fact despite it all,

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Speaker 1: Could they possibly be guilty? It's sure looked that way,

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Speaker 1: at least at first, decades would pass before we found

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Speaker 1: out the truth. There's so much more to this case,

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Speaker 1: more than we can tell you today. So join us

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Speaker 1: next week as we close our second season, we'll bring

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Speaker 1: you part two of the story of Tommy Ward and

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Speaker 1: Carl Fontaneau. Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions is a production of

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Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number

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Speaker 1: one Special thanks to our executive producers Jason Flamm and

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Speaker 1: Kevin Wardis. Our production team is headed by senior producer

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Speaker 1: An Pope, along with producers Joshi Hammer and Jess Shane.

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Speaker 1: Our show is mixed by Genie Montalvo. John Colbert is

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Speaker 1: our intrepid intern. Our music was composed by Jay Ralph.

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Speaker 1: You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter at Laura

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Speaker 1: and I writer, and you can follow me.

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Speaker 4: On Twitter at Sdrizzen.

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Speaker 1: For more information on the show, visit wrongfulconvictionpodcast dot com.

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Speaker 1: Be sure to follow the show on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

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Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

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Speaker 1: wrong Conviction