WEBVTT - OpenAI Part 4: Heaven and Hell, Part 2

0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:03.480
<v Speaker 1>Previously on Foundering, I think it'd be.

0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:05.440
<v Speaker 2>Good to end poverty. Maybe you think we should stop

0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:07.640
<v Speaker 2>the technology think can do that, I personally don't. The

0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:09.840
<v Speaker 2>first time I looked at GPT too, I was like,

0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:12.040
<v Speaker 2>oh my, this is like, this is crazy. This is

0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:14.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's there's nothing like, there's nothing like this

0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:16.360
<v Speaker 2>in the world, Like it's crazy that this is possible.

0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:20.799
<v Speaker 1>This was much more fluid feeling. It gave you a

0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:24.480
<v Speaker 1>sense that you were communicating with a person, even though

0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:26.600
<v Speaker 1>you were clearly not communicating with a person.

0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:29.320
<v Speaker 2>I think it's how we get to this world of abundance.

0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:32.760
<v Speaker 2>I think AI will probably, like most likely sort of

0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:34.879
<v Speaker 2>lead to the end of the world, and.

0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:39.800
<v Speaker 1>Yet we are wasting our time talking about these fantasy

0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:43.680
<v Speaker 1>scenarios because the people with all the money decided to

0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:47.280
<v Speaker 1>get worried about it. This episode picks up from where

0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:51.000
<v Speaker 1>part one of Heaven and Hell left off. If you

0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:53.559
<v Speaker 1>haven't listened to that episode yet, you might want to

0:00:53.600 --> 0:01:01.440
<v Speaker 1>go back and listen in order. One thing Sam has

0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:04.720
<v Speaker 1>been really clear he believes is that AI is going

0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:09.000
<v Speaker 1>to dramatically change our society and probably put a lot

0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:12.160
<v Speaker 1>of people out of work. His voice is matter of

0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.320
<v Speaker 1>fact when He describes this on the Joe Rogan podcast.

0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:17.640
<v Speaker 2>I think it's going to be a great thing, but

0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:19.640
<v Speaker 2>I think it's not going to be all a great thing.

0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:21.959
<v Speaker 2>It's not this clean story of we're going to do

0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:23.560
<v Speaker 2>this and it's all going to be great, and it's

0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:25.399
<v Speaker 2>going to be net great, but it's going to be

0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:29.240
<v Speaker 2>like a technological revolution. It's going to be a societal revolution.

0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:32.119
<v Speaker 1>When Sam says net, he means overall.

0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:35.360
<v Speaker 2>And even if it's like net wonderful, you know, there's

0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:37.600
<v Speaker 2>things we're going to lose along the way. Some kinds

0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:39.360
<v Speaker 2>of job, some kind of parts of our way of life,

0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:40.720
<v Speaker 2>some parts of the way we live are going to

0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:41.640
<v Speaker 2>change or go away.

0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:46.120
<v Speaker 1>These are scary changes. But when Sam talks about these changes,

0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:50.720
<v Speaker 1>he also has a proposed solution to them, Universal Basic income,

0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:55.880
<v Speaker 1>or UBI. It's a method of distributing money to keep

0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:59.600
<v Speaker 1>people out of poverty, and it has a few key tenets.

0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:04.000
<v Speaker 1>It's cash given to everyone on a regular schedule, and

0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:07.960
<v Speaker 1>it's unconditional, it's not tied to a job, and people

0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:11.120
<v Speaker 1>can spend it on whatever they want, no strings attached.

0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:15.200
<v Speaker 1>Sam says UBI is a great solution, one that we

0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:19.880
<v Speaker 1>should pursue as a society. It will help reduce inequality worldwide.

0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:21.880
<v Speaker 2>We're going to have an opportunity to push the reset

0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:24.359
<v Speaker 2>button and think about the world we want, and I

0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:26.720
<v Speaker 2>think universal basic income is one part of that that.

0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:28.760
<v Speaker 2>I think we do have an opportunity as we rewrite

0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:32.560
<v Speaker 2>the social contract to think about how we can get

0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:33.760
<v Speaker 2>towards a more equal world.

0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:37.600
<v Speaker 1>Sam has spent almost a decade making himself into a

0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:41.720
<v Speaker 1>tech expert on UBI. In twenty sixteen, when he was

0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:46.560
<v Speaker 1>running y Combinator, he started a basic income study in Oakland.

0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:51.359
<v Speaker 1>That project eventually gave one thousand people one thousand dollars

0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:55.720
<v Speaker 1>every month. It's no longer associated with YC and is

0:02:55.760 --> 0:03:00.440
<v Speaker 1>now funded by OpenAI. He also started a crypto project

0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:04.960
<v Speaker 1>called world Coin, which uses these silver orbs to scan

0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.919
<v Speaker 1>your eyeballs and register you in a database in exchange

0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:12.280
<v Speaker 1>for a digital currency. The point is to one day

0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:15.720
<v Speaker 1>be able to distribute a universal basic income to everyone

0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:21.519
<v Speaker 1>through this eyeball registry. Anyway, regardless of the method, Sam

0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:25.919
<v Speaker 1>has clearly made UBI part of his personal brand. As

0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.440
<v Speaker 1>you heard in Part one, he wants to eradicate poverty,

0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.200
<v Speaker 1>and he has continued to talk about this as recently

0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:33.280
<v Speaker 1>as twenty twenty three.

0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.120
<v Speaker 2>You know, I think the world should eliminate poverty if

0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:37.920
<v Speaker 2>able to do so. But one thing I think we

0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:40.840
<v Speaker 2>all could agree on, we just shouldn't have poverty in

0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:42.360
<v Speaker 2>the world. I think it'd be good to end poverty.

0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:44.320
<v Speaker 2>Maybe you think we should stop a technology that can

0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:45.920
<v Speaker 2>do that, I personally don't.

0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.720
<v Speaker 1>What really strikes me is that Sam positions himself as

0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.760
<v Speaker 1>the visionary behind this AI that might put us all

0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:56.920
<v Speaker 1>out of work, and the visionary behind systems that will

0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:01.080
<v Speaker 1>save us from that chaos. He's offering fixes to the

0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:06.600
<v Speaker 1>problems that his own technology will create. Imagine a future

0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.840
<v Speaker 1>where Sam Altman's company has invented AI so powerful that

0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:14.880
<v Speaker 1>it upends the entire labor economy. We no longer work

0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:20.160
<v Speaker 1>for money. Instead, we get monthly checks from Sam Altman's

0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:24.640
<v Speaker 1>income distribution system. I can imagine that his intentions might

0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:27.560
<v Speaker 1>be good, and that he wants to make a difference here.

0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:33.640
<v Speaker 1>But what Sam's proposing is ending poverty through systems overseen

0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.120
<v Speaker 1>by him, basically, and that's asking us to put a

0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:41.360
<v Speaker 1>huge amount of trust in him. Remember, Sam is really

0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:44.560
<v Speaker 1>good at gaining power. He has a deep drive to

0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:48.480
<v Speaker 1>be in charge. His company has made promises about adhering

0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:52.320
<v Speaker 1>to certain principles and then moved away from them. It

0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:55.000
<v Speaker 1>brings me back to this question we asked in episode one,

0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:58.039
<v Speaker 1>what I think is the key question of this series.

0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:00.240
<v Speaker 1>Should we trust this person?

0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:02.320
<v Speaker 2>We'll be right back.

0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:06.599
<v Speaker 1>Like we said earlier, there's a part of Sam's life

0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:10.120
<v Speaker 1>that really complicates this image of him. It's the story

0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:14.320
<v Speaker 1>of his little sister Annie. She says she lives in poverty.

0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:18.680
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes she struggles with homelessness. She says she survives by

0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:23.320
<v Speaker 1>doing sex work. Sam is pitching this dream future in

0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:27.080
<v Speaker 1>which universal basic income will protect everyone who needs it.

0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:31.480
<v Speaker 1>That sounds lovely in theory, but when it's held up

0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:35.800
<v Speaker 1>next to Annie's messy, everyday reality, that promise starts to

0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:41.279
<v Speaker 1>sound a bit hollow. Housing insecurity has defined Annie's life

0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:44.680
<v Speaker 1>for the past few years. This is a complex and

0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.800
<v Speaker 1>sensitive situation, so I wanted to hear from her myself.

0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:51.080
<v Speaker 3>In my experience, it's not only hard to do anything

0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:55.280
<v Speaker 3>when you are housing insecure, it is impossible. I haven't

0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:59.760
<v Speaker 3>had a typical day in four years because of how

0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:04.760
<v Speaker 3>much energy both physically like looking for places or doing things,

0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:09.400
<v Speaker 3>or looking for jobs and emotionally goes into housing insecurity.

0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.479
<v Speaker 3>It has been the single biggest energy output of my

0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:13.279
<v Speaker 3>past year.

0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:18.000
<v Speaker 1>In person, Annie is upbeat and smiley. She has good

0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:21.320
<v Speaker 1>suggestions for health food stores on Maui. She has the

0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:25.200
<v Speaker 1>word love tattooed across her knuckles. She makes a podcast,

0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:28.640
<v Speaker 1>Hello and Welcome to the Annie Altman Show All Humans

0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:32.120
<v Speaker 1>or Human Podcast, and posts videos of her singing on YouTube.

0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:35.080
<v Speaker 4>This is for my dad.

0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:45.760
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes, I and to better understand her story, I want

0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:49.640
<v Speaker 1>to rewind to her childhood. When we heard from Annie

0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:53.360
<v Speaker 1>briefly in the first episode, she talked about Sam's domineering

0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:57.000
<v Speaker 1>attitude within their family, how he dictated they wouldn't have

0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:00.000
<v Speaker 1>Christmas trees and put himself in charge of how long

0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:04.000
<v Speaker 1>each sibling could speak at their dad's funeral. Their family

0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:08.200
<v Speaker 1>has three boys. Sam's the oldest, then Max, then Jack.

0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.600
<v Speaker 1>Annie is the youngest, nine years younger than Sam and

0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:18.880
<v Speaker 1>the only girl. Her brothers loved science, math, games, nerdy stuff.

0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:23.840
<v Speaker 1>She was always the artistic, sensitive one. Even when they

0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.560
<v Speaker 1>were children, she sometimes felt like the odd one out,

0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.840
<v Speaker 1>and as they became adults, the bonds between the brothers

0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:37.240
<v Speaker 1>tightened both personally and professionally. While Sam was running YC,

0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:41.320
<v Speaker 1>Jack founded a software company that was funded by YC.

0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:46.559
<v Speaker 1>Jack and Max also both worked with Sam, helping run

0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:50.920
<v Speaker 1>his investment fund with money from Peter Teel. Then all

0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:54.760
<v Speaker 1>three started another investment fund together in which they used

0:07:54.880 --> 0:08:03.000
<v Speaker 1>Sam's personal wealth. The three brothers lived together in San Francisco, brothers, coworkers, roommates,

0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:10.320
<v Speaker 1>a tight, messy knot of family, business and money. Annie,

0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:13.240
<v Speaker 1>on the other hand, was not part of the Altman

0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:17.240
<v Speaker 1>family brand. With each new step in her life, she

0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.160
<v Speaker 1>seemed to veer farther away from the path she felt

0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:24.080
<v Speaker 1>was expected of her. She completed pre med requirements, but

0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:28.440
<v Speaker 1>decided not to pursue that further. She did improv classes,

0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:33.400
<v Speaker 1>stand up comedy, yoga, teacher training. She said her dad

0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.520
<v Speaker 1>was supportive of this turn away from a more traditional path.

0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:40.200
<v Speaker 1>Her mom, who was a physician, was less excited.

0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:46.880
<v Speaker 3>My siblings and mother were very judgmental about the shift

0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:51.319
<v Speaker 3>and also very this is just a phase. I was

0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:54.960
<v Speaker 3>an am at total daddy's girl. With my mother. There

0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.839
<v Speaker 3>was closeness only when I was doing what she wanted

0:08:57.840 --> 0:08:59.960
<v Speaker 3>me to do, which is a story. Sadly, I feel

0:08:59.960 --> 0:09:01.360
<v Speaker 3>like a lot of people can relate to.

0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:05.079
<v Speaker 1>Just a note. We reached out to Sam his siblings,

0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:08.559
<v Speaker 1>and his mom for comment in this episode. His mom,

0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:13.720
<v Speaker 1>Connie Gibstein, responded with this statement, We love Annie and

0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:17.240
<v Speaker 1>are very concerned about her well being. Over the years,

0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.600
<v Speaker 1>we have offered her financial support and help and continued

0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:25.280
<v Speaker 1>to offer it today. Navigating the balance between providing support

0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:29.760
<v Speaker 1>without enabling self destructive behavior for a family member with

0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:34.600
<v Speaker 1>mental health struggles is extraordinarily difficult. We only want the

0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.040
<v Speaker 1>best for Annie and hope everyone will treat her with compassion.

0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:43.160
<v Speaker 1>In twenty eighteen, Annie's father died suddenly of a heart attack,

0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:47.880
<v Speaker 1>and the grief hit her hard. Meanwhile, she also started

0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:51.560
<v Speaker 1>dealing with some chronic health issues, including tendonitis in her

0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:55.080
<v Speaker 1>ankle that made it difficult to do work that required standing.

0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.080
<v Speaker 1>She quit her job. She was still mourning her dad.

0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.600
<v Speaker 1>She had gotten some life insurance money after he died,

0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.679
<v Speaker 1>but when that ran out a year later, she still

0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:10.320
<v Speaker 1>found herself in a desperate financial situation. In order to

0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:14.720
<v Speaker 1>pay rent, she started selling her furniture. She says she

0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:18.240
<v Speaker 1>asked her family directly for money to pay rent and

0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:19.200
<v Speaker 1>cover groceries.

0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:22.120
<v Speaker 4>I asked my mother for help and she said no,

0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.480
<v Speaker 4>And then asked Sam and he was told to say

0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:30.240
<v Speaker 4>no because of her wanting him to say no, and

0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:36.720
<v Speaker 4>he's a grown man in his thirties millions of dollars now.

0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.680
<v Speaker 1>Sam and his family have given Annie money at times,

0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.280
<v Speaker 1>but she says it always came with heavy conditions that

0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:47.040
<v Speaker 1>made her nervous. At one point, Sam wanted her to

0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.400
<v Speaker 1>get back on zoloft, an antidepressant, which she had started

0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:54.079
<v Speaker 1>as a teen but had stopped. Later on, She forwarded

0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.400
<v Speaker 1>me an email from Sam where he asked her to

0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:59.000
<v Speaker 1>share her bank statements and to allow him and his

0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.480
<v Speaker 1>mom to sit in on some of her therapy sessions

0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.079
<v Speaker 1>in exchange for her rent and medical expenses being covered.

0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:08.920
<v Speaker 1>She felt like it was his way of exerting leverage

0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:12.680
<v Speaker 1>or power over her. Of course, Sam can spend his

0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:17.400
<v Speaker 1>money as he pleases, but again, he's on stage espousing

0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:22.600
<v Speaker 1>the virtues of universal basic income giving money away for free, unconditionally,

0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.719
<v Speaker 1>and Annie says he didn't do the same here for her.

0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:29.720
<v Speaker 1>There were times when I'd gone back and forth about

0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:33.640
<v Speaker 1>what to include from Annie's story. It's a very personal,

0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:38.880
<v Speaker 1>messy family situation, and I'll confess that on occasion I've

0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:43.360
<v Speaker 1>doubted some unrelated things she's told me. But also I've

0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:46.880
<v Speaker 1>looked through corroborating emails and documents. We drove to a

0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:49.600
<v Speaker 1>lot of places Annie lived, and I met people she

0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:55.080
<v Speaker 1>lived with. So in late twenty nineteen, when she asked

0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:57.959
<v Speaker 1>for help and says she was told no, she turned

0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:01.760
<v Speaker 1>to something she considered a last resort to make money.

0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:05.080
<v Speaker 1>She started sex work. She made an account on a

0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:09.640
<v Speaker 1>sugar Daddy dating website where people trade money for companionship

0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:10.520
<v Speaker 1>and often sex.

0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:13.559
<v Speaker 3>I was just I was in a desperate place. I

0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.480
<v Speaker 3>mean I literally like people who have been in a

0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:18.760
<v Speaker 3>position like this ever know that when you're in a

0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:22.760
<v Speaker 3>place of selling furniture, you're in a desperate position of

0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.120
<v Speaker 3>I'm out options. This is a plan z I would

0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:28.400
<v Speaker 3>not be doing this if plans a through I had

0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:29.880
<v Speaker 3>worked out in any capacity.

0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.800
<v Speaker 1>The first thing she tried was video chatting with a

0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:36.320
<v Speaker 1>middle aged man. She flashed him on camera and he

0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.960
<v Speaker 1>sent her money over Zell. She posted videos on OnlyFans

0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:44.600
<v Speaker 1>and porn Hub. She also did in person sex work

0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:48.040
<v Speaker 1>for two years. She says she didn't want to, but

0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:49.880
<v Speaker 1>it was the work that she was able to fit

0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:53.200
<v Speaker 1>into her unpredictable schedule of dealing with her health issues,

0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.079
<v Speaker 1>her lack of stable income, led to a long period

0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:01.280
<v Speaker 1>of housing insecurity. At times, she lived with sex work

0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:05.640
<v Speaker 1>clients or even with strangers from the internet. Her sex

0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:09.320
<v Speaker 1>work contributed to her precarious housing. She didn't have pay

0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:12.680
<v Speaker 1>stubs or regular income, which limited the kind of leases

0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:17.400
<v Speaker 1>she could get. It felt like this interconnected web, exactly

0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.480
<v Speaker 1>the kind of vicious cycle that something like universal basic

0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:21.880
<v Speaker 1>income tries to break.

0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:24.760
<v Speaker 3>If I had a security deposit in my bank account,

0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:27.800
<v Speaker 3>never would have lived with this man, not, not even

0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.040
<v Speaker 3>a little bit of a chance. Would I have lived

0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:35.400
<v Speaker 3>with this man. There's some unhealthy sex work experiences, and

0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:39.480
<v Speaker 3>I've also had very traumatizing experiences from in person work

0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:43.040
<v Speaker 3>that would not have happened if I had secure housing.

0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:45.960
<v Speaker 3>I'm still in and have been so long in survival

0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:51.800
<v Speaker 3>mode that it really shifts everything. It really shifts everything

0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.480
<v Speaker 3>times when it's been really like both places like staying

0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:58.559
<v Speaker 3>just for a week and a half and then enough

0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:00.520
<v Speaker 3>floor for a week, and then someone's for a night,

0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:02.240
<v Speaker 3>and then a floor for a week. In those places

0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.080
<v Speaker 3>of really moving that much in a short period of time,

0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:09.640
<v Speaker 3>there's no I had no energy for anything else, really

0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:14.080
<v Speaker 3>feeling a sense of helplessness and powerlessness that I have

0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:15.199
<v Speaker 3>never experienced.

0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:21.200
<v Speaker 1>Ever, it's not a clean cut situation. In twenty twenty two,

0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:25.160
<v Speaker 1>Sam offered to buy Annie a house, but she says

0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.400
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't going to be in her name and the

0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:29.080
<v Speaker 1>conditions made her uncomfortable.

0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.440
<v Speaker 3>It became clear to me that it was not an

0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:34.560
<v Speaker 3>offer for my house. It was an offer for a

0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.240
<v Speaker 3>house of Sam's or a lawyer of his that I

0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:38.560
<v Speaker 3>would be allowed to live in.

0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.000
<v Speaker 1>She felt like it was a throwback to Sam's attempts

0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:44.240
<v Speaker 1>to get her on Zoloft and to peer into her

0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:48.600
<v Speaker 1>bank statements, so she said, no, I do want to

0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.280
<v Speaker 1>pause on this because I know it may sound illogical.

0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.360
<v Speaker 1>After all, it would have been a place to live.

0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.160
<v Speaker 1>But from her point of view, Sam had exerted control

0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:02.080
<v Speaker 1>over her throughout their lives, and this seemed like one

0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:06.680
<v Speaker 1>more attempt to control her. During those conversations, she was

0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:09.560
<v Speaker 1>clear with Sam about the hardships she had endured in

0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:10.600
<v Speaker 1>the past couple of years.

0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:13.600
<v Speaker 3>I told him over the series of those phone calls too,

0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:17.480
<v Speaker 3>that I had started sex work, and distinctly remember when

0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:19.600
<v Speaker 3>I first told him about doing sex work and he said,

0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:20.680
<v Speaker 3>quote good.

0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:24.560
<v Speaker 1>Annie was stung because she remembers that he didn't ask

0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.840
<v Speaker 1>anything more about it, like she was sharing something that

0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.920
<v Speaker 1>was painful for her and he was blowing past.

0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:34.840
<v Speaker 3>It to hear your little sister tell you she's doing

0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:39.920
<v Speaker 3>something she doesn't want to do related to sex, and

0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:43.680
<v Speaker 3>for the response to be good. So I was like, oh,

0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:47.360
<v Speaker 3>you're glad that I'm starting to post on OnlyFans. It

0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:50.680
<v Speaker 3>sounds good to you because I'm supporting myself, even if

0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.720
<v Speaker 3>I'm telling you I'm doing this as a plan Z

0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:55.480
<v Speaker 3>because I don't know what else to do.

0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:59.280
<v Speaker 1>A person close to Sam says that Sam remembers the

0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:05.680
<v Speaker 1>conversation differently. Annie and Sam are mostly estranged. After that conversation,

0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:11.160
<v Speaker 1>she kept living in Hawaii, struggling in obscurity. Meanwhile, Sam

0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:15.520
<v Speaker 1>was ascendant. He was doing world tours CEO of the year,

0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:20.400
<v Speaker 1>he officially became a billionaire. Most of the world had

0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:24.080
<v Speaker 1>no idea Annie Altman existed, let alone that she was

0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:28.480
<v Speaker 1>depending on OnlyFans for survival. But last fall New York

0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:32.680
<v Speaker 1>magazine published a profile of Sam, and the journalist Elizabeth

0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:37.960
<v Speaker 1>Wyle interviewed Annie. The article was the first time a

0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.840
<v Speaker 1>lot of people have found out Sam even had a sister.

0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:44.840
<v Speaker 1>Myself included some of the trippiest messages I got from

0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:46.280
<v Speaker 1>reporters when that.

0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:51.520
<v Speaker 3>Article first came out were reporters who have watched every

0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:55.560
<v Speaker 3>interview Sam has ever done, saying he's never mentioned a sister.

0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:59.800
<v Speaker 1>Annie worries that because she's basically invisible in Sam's public

0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:03.480
<v Speaker 1>life life, especially compared to his tight relationship with his brothers,

0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.119
<v Speaker 1>reporters won't take her story seriously.

0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:10.960
<v Speaker 3>That they will then question my validity or oh, well,

0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:13.399
<v Speaker 3>she's crazy. Maybe he did, you know, maybe he's just

0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.679
<v Speaker 3>not talking about her because she's so mentally unstable, and

0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.080
<v Speaker 3>so now let's recycle that Annie's crazy narrative and this

0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:20.760
<v Speaker 3>is why she can't be trusted, or we should just

0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:21.440
<v Speaker 3>ignore her.

0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:24.000
<v Speaker 1>In the days leading up to the article coming out,

0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:26.880
<v Speaker 1>New York Magazine reached out to Sam and his family

0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:30.240
<v Speaker 1>and Open AI for fact checking and to confirm details.

0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.320
<v Speaker 1>So Sam knew the story was going to mention Annie,

0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:37.600
<v Speaker 1>and then the day before the article ran, something spurred

0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:42.680
<v Speaker 1>Sam to make an unexpected move. He emailed Annie, and

0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.480
<v Speaker 1>the night before it came out was Yam Kapoor, the

0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:48.200
<v Speaker 1>Jewish day of forgiveness.

0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:52.919
<v Speaker 3>Sam emailed me no subject in an all lowercase and

0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:57.240
<v Speaker 3>said hi Annie, in the spirit of it. Almost being

0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:01.080
<v Speaker 3>Yam Kapoor. I wanted to apologize and ask for forgiveness

0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:05.440
<v Speaker 3>for something I should have kept sending you money without conditions,

0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:09.879
<v Speaker 3>even though our family had concerns. I was in a

0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:12.920
<v Speaker 3>tough position of wanting to let mom drive decisions as

0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:16.880
<v Speaker 3>the parent and seeing how much stress you were causing

0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:21.800
<v Speaker 3>her parentheses, and also agreeing it would be better for

0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.919
<v Speaker 3>everyone if you were able to support yourself, and thinking

0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:31.000
<v Speaker 3>that you needed medical help close parentheses, and it being

0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:36.480
<v Speaker 3>clear you just weren't really able to function very well. Still,

0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:40.639
<v Speaker 3>I made the wrong call and should have just kept

0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:47.240
<v Speaker 3>supporting you. I sincerely apologize. I hope you find peace.

0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.920
<v Speaker 3>There's no mention of this article that's coming out tomorrow,

0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.199
<v Speaker 3>and there's no mention of the fact checking that he

0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:55.920
<v Speaker 3>just went through.

0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:59.280
<v Speaker 1>Annie felt that the timing of this email was really

0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.840
<v Speaker 1>telling that for all this time, while Annie was staying

0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:07.320
<v Speaker 1>in the background, Sam didn't feel any need to apologize. Then,

0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:09.960
<v Speaker 1>just as she's about to exert a little bit of

0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:14.000
<v Speaker 1>power over him by complicating his image, he reaches out

0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:18.080
<v Speaker 1>and invokes their shared Jewish heritage to ask for forgiveness.

0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:23.320
<v Speaker 1>I asked Annie how she felt about Sam speaking publicly

0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:27.520
<v Speaker 1>about universal basic income and ending poverty when he hasn't

0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:28.320
<v Speaker 1>done the same for her.

0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.320
<v Speaker 3>It was a very big slap in the face. It

0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:37.040
<v Speaker 3>feels embarrassing to be related to him. It's beyond depressing

0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:42.520
<v Speaker 3>and heartbreaking and disappointing that someone who I thought had

0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:44.560
<v Speaker 3>a different moral compass, or who I thought would be

0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:47.240
<v Speaker 3>there for me when I needed someone and was really sick,

0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:52.879
<v Speaker 3>I wasn't is I'm going to be creeving in the

0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:54.359
<v Speaker 3>same way I'm going to be creeving my dad for

0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:55.840
<v Speaker 3>the rest of my life. I'm going to be creeving

0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:58.920
<v Speaker 3>Sam for the rest of my life. And the sadness

0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:04.040
<v Speaker 3>of of someone who saw me in a walking boot

0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:08.840
<v Speaker 3>and didn't say, how can I help you. It's why

0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:10.680
<v Speaker 3>I use the term sibling in not brother.

0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:15.920
<v Speaker 1>Even though Annie's story is really complicated, I think it's

0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:19.560
<v Speaker 1>relevant to all of us because when Sam is going

0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:23.480
<v Speaker 1>around talking about our AI future, he acknowledges that AI

0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:26.400
<v Speaker 1>could take our jobs and upend society and money as

0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:29.320
<v Speaker 1>we know it, and he says he'll come up with

0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:34.120
<v Speaker 1>a solution for us universal basic income. But when he's

0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:38.360
<v Speaker 1>faced with the messy reality of his own sister, suddenly

0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:43.439
<v Speaker 1>it's not so simple. In public, he is literally saying

0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:46.879
<v Speaker 1>that there shouldn't be poverty. Money will be given away

0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:51.800
<v Speaker 1>to everyone. In private, when Annie asked for help, he

0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:53.919
<v Speaker 1>didn't come through for her in the way she needed.

0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.920
<v Speaker 1>In the next and final episode, we'll see that even

0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.879
<v Speaker 1>the board of Open AI, the people whose job it

0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:06.760
<v Speaker 1>was to keep Sam in check, decided they didn't trust him.

0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:10.640
<v Speaker 1>He had to go, and they needed to take drastic

0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:14.200
<v Speaker 1>measures to remove him from the seat of power. That's

0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:23.760
<v Speaker 1>next time on Foundering. Foundering is hosted by me Ellen Hewitt.

0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:27.919
<v Speaker 1>Sean Wen is our executive producer. Mollie Nugent is our

0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:32.719
<v Speaker 1>associate producer. Blake Maples is our audio engineer, Mark Million

0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:36.960
<v Speaker 1>and Vandermain seth Fiegerman, Tom Giles and Molly Schutz are

0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:40.440
<v Speaker 1>our story editors. We had production help from Jessica Nix

0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:44.960
<v Speaker 1>and Antonia Mufferetch. Thanks for listening. If you like our show,

0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:49.160
<v Speaker 1>leave a review, and most importantly, tell your friends. See

0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:49.800
<v Speaker 1>you next time.