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Speaker 1: Previously on Foundering, I think it'd be.

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Speaker 2: Good to end poverty. Maybe you think we should stop

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Speaker 2: the technology think can do that, I personally don't. The

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Speaker 2: first time I looked at GPT too, I was like,

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Speaker 2: oh my, this is like, this is crazy. This is

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Speaker 2: you know, there's there's nothing like, there's nothing like this

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Speaker 2: in the world, Like it's crazy that this is possible.

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Speaker 1: This was much more fluid feeling. It gave you a

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Speaker 1: sense that you were communicating with a person, even though

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Speaker 1: you were clearly not communicating with a person.

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Speaker 2: I think it's how we get to this world of abundance.

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Speaker 2: I think AI will probably, like most likely sort of

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Speaker 2: lead to the end of the world, and.

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Speaker 1: Yet we are wasting our time talking about these fantasy

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Speaker 1: scenarios because the people with all the money decided to

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Speaker 1: get worried about it. This episode picks up from where

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Speaker 1: part one of Heaven and Hell left off. If you

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Speaker 1: haven't listened to that episode yet, you might want to

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Speaker 1: go back and listen in order. One thing Sam has

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Speaker 1: been really clear he believes is that AI is going

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Speaker 1: to dramatically change our society and probably put a lot

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Speaker 1: of people out of work. His voice is matter of

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Speaker 1: fact when He describes this on the Joe Rogan podcast.

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Speaker 2: I think it's going to be a great thing, but

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Speaker 2: I think it's not going to be all a great thing.

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Speaker 2: It's not this clean story of we're going to do

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Speaker 2: this and it's all going to be great, and it's

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Speaker 2: going to be net great, but it's going to be

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Speaker 2: like a technological revolution. It's going to be a societal revolution.

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Speaker 1: When Sam says net, he means overall.

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Speaker 2: And even if it's like net wonderful, you know, there's

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Speaker 2: things we're going to lose along the way. Some kinds

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Speaker 2: of job, some kind of parts of our way of life,

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Speaker 2: some parts of the way we live are going to

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Speaker 2: change or go away.

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Speaker 1: These are scary changes. But when Sam talks about these changes,

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Speaker 1: he also has a proposed solution to them, Universal Basic income,

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Speaker 1: or UBI. It's a method of distributing money to keep

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Speaker 1: people out of poverty, and it has a few key tenets.

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Speaker 1: It's cash given to everyone on a regular schedule, and

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Speaker 1: it's unconditional, it's not tied to a job, and people

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Speaker 1: can spend it on whatever they want, no strings attached.

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Speaker 1: Sam says UBI is a great solution, one that we

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Speaker 1: should pursue as a society. It will help reduce inequality worldwide.

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Speaker 2: We're going to have an opportunity to push the reset

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Speaker 2: button and think about the world we want, and I

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Speaker 2: think universal basic income is one part of that that.

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Speaker 2: I think we do have an opportunity as we rewrite

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Speaker 2: the social contract to think about how we can get

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Speaker 2: towards a more equal world.

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Speaker 1: Sam has spent almost a decade making himself into a

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Speaker 1: tech expert on UBI. In twenty sixteen, when he was

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Speaker 1: running y Combinator, he started a basic income study in Oakland.

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Speaker 1: That project eventually gave one thousand people one thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: every month. It's no longer associated with YC and is

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Speaker 1: now funded by OpenAI. He also started a crypto project

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Speaker 1: called world Coin, which uses these silver orbs to scan

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Speaker 1: your eyeballs and register you in a database in exchange

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Speaker 1: for a digital currency. The point is to one day

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Speaker 1: be able to distribute a universal basic income to everyone

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Speaker 1: through this eyeball registry. Anyway, regardless of the method, Sam

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Speaker 1: has clearly made UBI part of his personal brand. As

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Speaker 1: you heard in Part one, he wants to eradicate poverty,

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Speaker 1: and he has continued to talk about this as recently

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Speaker 1: as twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 2: You know, I think the world should eliminate poverty if

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Speaker 2: able to do so. But one thing I think we

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Speaker 2: all could agree on, we just shouldn't have poverty in

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Speaker 2: the world. I think it'd be good to end poverty.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you think we should stop a technology that can

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Speaker 2: do that, I personally don't.

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Speaker 1: What really strikes me is that Sam positions himself as

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Speaker 1: the visionary behind this AI that might put us all

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Speaker 1: out of work, and the visionary behind systems that will

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Speaker 1: save us from that chaos. He's offering fixes to the

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Speaker 1: problems that his own technology will create. Imagine a future

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Speaker 1: where Sam Altman's company has invented AI so powerful that

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Speaker 1: it upends the entire labor economy. We no longer work

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Speaker 1: for money. Instead, we get monthly checks from Sam Altman's

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Speaker 1: income distribution system. I can imagine that his intentions might

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Speaker 1: be good, and that he wants to make a difference here.

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Speaker 1: But what Sam's proposing is ending poverty through systems overseen

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Speaker 1: by him, basically, and that's asking us to put a

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Speaker 1: huge amount of trust in him. Remember, Sam is really

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Speaker 1: good at gaining power. He has a deep drive to

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Speaker 1: be in charge. His company has made promises about adhering

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Speaker 1: to certain principles and then moved away from them. It

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Speaker 1: brings me back to this question we asked in episode one,

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Speaker 1: what I think is the key question of this series.

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Speaker 1: Should we trust this person?

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 1: Like we said earlier, there's a part of Sam's life

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Speaker 1: that really complicates this image of him. It's the story

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Speaker 1: of his little sister Annie. She says she lives in poverty.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes she struggles with homelessness. She says she survives by

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Speaker 1: doing sex work. Sam is pitching this dream future in

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Speaker 1: which universal basic income will protect everyone who needs it.

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Speaker 1: That sounds lovely in theory, but when it's held up

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Speaker 1: next to Annie's messy, everyday reality, that promise starts to

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Speaker 1: sound a bit hollow. Housing insecurity has defined Annie's life

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Speaker 1: for the past few years. This is a complex and

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Speaker 1: sensitive situation, so I wanted to hear from her myself.

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Speaker 3: In my experience, it's not only hard to do anything

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Speaker 3: when you are housing insecure, it is impossible. I haven't

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Speaker 3: had a typical day in four years because of how

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Speaker 3: much energy both physically like looking for places or doing things,

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Speaker 3: or looking for jobs and emotionally goes into housing insecurity.

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Speaker 3: It has been the single biggest energy output of my

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Speaker 3: past year.

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Speaker 1: In person, Annie is upbeat and smiley. She has good

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Speaker 1: suggestions for health food stores on Maui. She has the

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Speaker 1: word love tattooed across her knuckles. She makes a podcast,

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Speaker 1: Hello and Welcome to the Annie Altman Show All Humans

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Speaker 1: or Human Podcast, and posts videos of her singing on YouTube.

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Speaker 4: This is for my dad.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes, I and to better understand her story, I want

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Speaker 1: to rewind to her childhood. When we heard from Annie

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Speaker 1: briefly in the first episode, she talked about Sam's domineering

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Speaker 1: attitude within their family, how he dictated they wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: Christmas trees and put himself in charge of how long

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Speaker 1: each sibling could speak at their dad's funeral. Their family

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Speaker 1: has three boys. Sam's the oldest, then Max, then Jack.

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Speaker 1: Annie is the youngest, nine years younger than Sam and

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Speaker 1: the only girl. Her brothers loved science, math, games, nerdy stuff.

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Speaker 1: She was always the artistic, sensitive one. Even when they

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Speaker 1: were children, she sometimes felt like the odd one out,

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Speaker 1: and as they became adults, the bonds between the brothers

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Speaker 1: tightened both personally and professionally. While Sam was running YC,

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Speaker 1: Jack founded a software company that was funded by YC.

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Speaker 1: Jack and Max also both worked with Sam, helping run

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Speaker 1: his investment fund with money from Peter Teel. Then all

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Speaker 1: three started another investment fund together in which they used

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Speaker 1: Sam's personal wealth. The three brothers lived together in San Francisco, brothers, coworkers, roommates,

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Speaker 1: a tight, messy knot of family, business and money. Annie,

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, was not part of the Altman

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Speaker 1: family brand. With each new step in her life, she

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Speaker 1: seemed to veer farther away from the path she felt

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Speaker 1: was expected of her. She completed pre med requirements, but

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Speaker 1: decided not to pursue that further. She did improv classes,

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Speaker 1: stand up comedy, yoga, teacher training. She said her dad

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Speaker 1: was supportive of this turn away from a more traditional path.

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Speaker 1: Her mom, who was a physician, was less excited.

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Speaker 3: My siblings and mother were very judgmental about the shift

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Speaker 3: and also very this is just a phase. I was

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Speaker 3: an am at total daddy's girl. With my mother. There

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Speaker 3: was closeness only when I was doing what she wanted

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Speaker 3: me to do, which is a story. Sadly, I feel

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Speaker 3: like a lot of people can relate to.

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Speaker 1: Just a note. We reached out to Sam his siblings,

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Speaker 1: and his mom for comment in this episode. His mom,

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Speaker 1: Connie Gibstein, responded with this statement, We love Annie and

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Speaker 1: are very concerned about her well being. Over the years,

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Speaker 1: we have offered her financial support and help and continued

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Speaker 1: to offer it today. Navigating the balance between providing support

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Speaker 1: without enabling self destructive behavior for a family member with

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Speaker 1: mental health struggles is extraordinarily difficult. We only want the

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Speaker 1: best for Annie and hope everyone will treat her with compassion.

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Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, Annie's father died suddenly of a heart attack,

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Speaker 1: and the grief hit her hard. Meanwhile, she also started

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Speaker 1: dealing with some chronic health issues, including tendonitis in her

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Speaker 1: ankle that made it difficult to do work that required standing.

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Speaker 1: She quit her job. She was still mourning her dad.

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Speaker 1: She had gotten some life insurance money after he died,

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Speaker 1: but when that ran out a year later, she still

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Speaker 1: found herself in a desperate financial situation. In order to

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Speaker 1: pay rent, she started selling her furniture. She says she

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Speaker 1: asked her family directly for money to pay rent and

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Speaker 1: cover groceries.

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Speaker 4: I asked my mother for help and she said no,

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Speaker 4: And then asked Sam and he was told to say

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Speaker 4: no because of her wanting him to say no, and

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Speaker 4: he's a grown man in his thirties millions of dollars now.

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Speaker 1: Sam and his family have given Annie money at times,

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Speaker 1: but she says it always came with heavy conditions that

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Speaker 1: made her nervous. At one point, Sam wanted her to

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Speaker 1: get back on zoloft, an antidepressant, which she had started

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Speaker 1: as a teen but had stopped. Later on, She forwarded

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Speaker 1: me an email from Sam where he asked her to

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Speaker 1: share her bank statements and to allow him and his

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Speaker 1: mom to sit in on some of her therapy sessions

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Speaker 1: in exchange for her rent and medical expenses being covered.

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Speaker 1: She felt like it was his way of exerting leverage

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Speaker 1: or power over her. Of course, Sam can spend his

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Speaker 1: money as he pleases, but again, he's on stage espousing

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Speaker 1: the virtues of universal basic income giving money away for free, unconditionally,

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Speaker 1: and Annie says he didn't do the same here for her.

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Speaker 1: There were times when I'd gone back and forth about

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Speaker 1: what to include from Annie's story. It's a very personal,

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Speaker 1: messy family situation, and I'll confess that on occasion I've

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Speaker 1: doubted some unrelated things she's told me. But also I've

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Speaker 1: looked through corroborating emails and documents. We drove to a

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Speaker 1: lot of places Annie lived, and I met people she

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Speaker 1: lived with. So in late twenty nineteen, when she asked

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Speaker 1: for help and says she was told no, she turned

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Speaker 1: to something she considered a last resort to make money.

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Speaker 1: She started sex work. She made an account on a

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Speaker 1: sugar Daddy dating website where people trade money for companionship

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Speaker 1: and often sex.

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Speaker 3: I was just I was in a desperate place. I

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Speaker 3: mean I literally like people who have been in a

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Speaker 3: position like this ever know that when you're in a

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Speaker 3: place of selling furniture, you're in a desperate position of

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Speaker 3: I'm out options. This is a plan z I would

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Speaker 3: not be doing this if plans a through I had

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Speaker 3: worked out in any capacity.

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Speaker 1: The first thing she tried was video chatting with a

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Speaker 1: middle aged man. She flashed him on camera and he

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Speaker 1: sent her money over Zell. She posted videos on OnlyFans

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Speaker 1: and porn Hub. She also did in person sex work

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Speaker 1: for two years. She says she didn't want to, but

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Speaker 1: it was the work that she was able to fit

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Speaker 1: into her unpredictable schedule of dealing with her health issues,

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Speaker 1: her lack of stable income, led to a long period

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Speaker 1: of housing insecurity. At times, she lived with sex work

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Speaker 1: clients or even with strangers from the internet. Her sex

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Speaker 1: work contributed to her precarious housing. She didn't have pay

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Speaker 1: stubs or regular income, which limited the kind of leases

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Speaker 1: she could get. It felt like this interconnected web, exactly

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Speaker 1: the kind of vicious cycle that something like universal basic

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Speaker 1: income tries to break.

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Speaker 3: If I had a security deposit in my bank account,

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Speaker 3: never would have lived with this man, not, not even

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Speaker 3: a little bit of a chance. Would I have lived

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Speaker 3: with this man. There's some unhealthy sex work experiences, and

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Speaker 3: I've also had very traumatizing experiences from in person work

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Speaker 3: that would not have happened if I had secure housing.

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Speaker 3: I'm still in and have been so long in survival

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Speaker 3: mode that it really shifts everything. It really shifts everything

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Speaker 3: times when it's been really like both places like staying

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Speaker 3: just for a week and a half and then enough

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Speaker 3: floor for a week, and then someone's for a night,

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Speaker 3: and then a floor for a week. In those places

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Speaker 3: of really moving that much in a short period of time,

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Speaker 3: there's no I had no energy for anything else, really

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Speaker 3: feeling a sense of helplessness and powerlessness that I have

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Speaker 3: never experienced.

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Speaker 1: Ever, it's not a clean cut situation. In twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 1: Sam offered to buy Annie a house, but she says

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Speaker 1: it wasn't going to be in her name and the

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Speaker 1: conditions made her uncomfortable.

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Speaker 3: It became clear to me that it was not an

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Speaker 3: offer for my house. It was an offer for a

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Speaker 3: house of Sam's or a lawyer of his that I

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Speaker 3: would be allowed to live in.

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Speaker 1: She felt like it was a throwback to Sam's attempts

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Speaker 1: to get her on Zoloft and to peer into her

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Speaker 1: bank statements, so she said, no, I do want to

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Speaker 1: pause on this because I know it may sound illogical.

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Speaker 1: After all, it would have been a place to live.

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Speaker 1: But from her point of view, Sam had exerted control

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Speaker 1: over her throughout their lives, and this seemed like one

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Speaker 1: more attempt to control her. During those conversations, she was

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Speaker 1: clear with Sam about the hardships she had endured in

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Speaker 1: the past couple of years.

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Speaker 3: I told him over the series of those phone calls too,

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Speaker 3: that I had started sex work, and distinctly remember when

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Speaker 3: I first told him about doing sex work and he said,

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Speaker 3: quote good.

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Speaker 1: Annie was stung because she remembers that he didn't ask

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Speaker 1: anything more about it, like she was sharing something that

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Speaker 1: was painful for her and he was blowing past.

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Speaker 3: It to hear your little sister tell you she's doing

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Speaker 3: something she doesn't want to do related to sex, and

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Speaker 3: for the response to be good. So I was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: you're glad that I'm starting to post on OnlyFans. It

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Speaker 3: sounds good to you because I'm supporting myself, even if

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Speaker 3: I'm telling you I'm doing this as a plan Z

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Speaker 3: because I don't know what else to do.

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Speaker 1: A person close to Sam says that Sam remembers the

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Speaker 1: conversation differently. Annie and Sam are mostly estranged. After that conversation,

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Speaker 1: she kept living in Hawaii, struggling in obscurity. Meanwhile, Sam

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Speaker 1: was ascendant. He was doing world tours CEO of the year,

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Speaker 1: he officially became a billionaire. Most of the world had

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Speaker 1: no idea Annie Altman existed, let alone that she was

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Speaker 1: depending on OnlyFans for survival. But last fall New York

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Speaker 1: magazine published a profile of Sam, and the journalist Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: Wyle interviewed Annie. The article was the first time a

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Speaker 1: lot of people have found out Sam even had a sister.

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Speaker 1: Myself included some of the trippiest messages I got from

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Speaker 1: reporters when that.

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Speaker 3: Article first came out were reporters who have watched every

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Speaker 3: interview Sam has ever done, saying he's never mentioned a sister.

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Speaker 1: Annie worries that because she's basically invisible in Sam's public

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Speaker 1: life life, especially compared to his tight relationship with his brothers,

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Speaker 1: reporters won't take her story seriously.

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Speaker 3: That they will then question my validity or oh, well,

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Speaker 3: she's crazy. Maybe he did, you know, maybe he's just

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Speaker 3: not talking about her because she's so mentally unstable, and

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Speaker 3: so now let's recycle that Annie's crazy narrative and this

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Speaker 3: is why she can't be trusted, or we should just

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Speaker 3: ignore her.

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Speaker 1: In the days leading up to the article coming out,

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Speaker 1: New York Magazine reached out to Sam and his family

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Speaker 1: and Open AI for fact checking and to confirm details.

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Speaker 1: So Sam knew the story was going to mention Annie,

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Speaker 1: and then the day before the article ran, something spurred

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Speaker 1: Sam to make an unexpected move. He emailed Annie, and

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Speaker 1: the night before it came out was Yam Kapoor, the

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Speaker 1: Jewish day of forgiveness.

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Speaker 3: Sam emailed me no subject in an all lowercase and

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Speaker 3: said hi Annie, in the spirit of it. Almost being

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Speaker 3: Yam Kapoor. I wanted to apologize and ask for forgiveness

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Speaker 3: for something I should have kept sending you money without conditions,

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Speaker 3: even though our family had concerns. I was in a

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Speaker 3: tough position of wanting to let mom drive decisions as

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Speaker 3: the parent and seeing how much stress you were causing

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Speaker 3: her parentheses, and also agreeing it would be better for

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Speaker 3: everyone if you were able to support yourself, and thinking

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Speaker 3: that you needed medical help close parentheses, and it being

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Speaker 3: clear you just weren't really able to function very well. Still,

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Speaker 3: I made the wrong call and should have just kept

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Speaker 3: supporting you. I sincerely apologize. I hope you find peace.

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Speaker 3: There's no mention of this article that's coming out tomorrow,

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Speaker 3: and there's no mention of the fact checking that he

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Speaker 3: just went through.

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Speaker 1: Annie felt that the timing of this email was really

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Speaker 1: telling that for all this time, while Annie was staying

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Speaker 1: in the background, Sam didn't feel any need to apologize. Then,

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Speaker 1: just as she's about to exert a little bit of

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Speaker 1: power over him by complicating his image, he reaches out

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Speaker 1: and invokes their shared Jewish heritage to ask for forgiveness.

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Speaker 1: I asked Annie how she felt about Sam speaking publicly

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Speaker 1: about universal basic income and ending poverty when he hasn't

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Speaker 1: done the same for her.

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Speaker 3: It was a very big slap in the face. It

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Speaker 3: feels embarrassing to be related to him. It's beyond depressing

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Speaker 3: and heartbreaking and disappointing that someone who I thought had

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Speaker 3: a different moral compass, or who I thought would be

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Speaker 3: there for me when I needed someone and was really sick,

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Speaker 3: I wasn't is I'm going to be creeving in the

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Speaker 3: same way I'm going to be creeving my dad for

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Speaker 3: the rest of my life. I'm going to be creeving

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Speaker 3: Sam for the rest of my life. And the sadness

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Speaker 3: of of someone who saw me in a walking boot

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Speaker 3: and didn't say, how can I help you. It's why

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Speaker 3: I use the term sibling in not brother.

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Speaker 1: Even though Annie's story is really complicated, I think it's

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Speaker 1: relevant to all of us because when Sam is going

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Speaker 1: around talking about our AI future, he acknowledges that AI

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Speaker 1: could take our jobs and upend society and money as

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Speaker 1: we know it, and he says he'll come up with

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Speaker 1: a solution for us universal basic income. But when he's

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Speaker 1: faced with the messy reality of his own sister, suddenly

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Speaker 1: it's not so simple. In public, he is literally saying

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Speaker 1: that there shouldn't be poverty. Money will be given away

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Speaker 1: to everyone. In private, when Annie asked for help, he

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Speaker 1: didn't come through for her in the way she needed.

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Speaker 1: In the next and final episode, we'll see that even

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Speaker 1: the board of Open AI, the people whose job it

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Speaker 1: was to keep Sam in check, decided they didn't trust him.

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Speaker 1: He had to go, and they needed to take drastic

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Speaker 1: measures to remove him from the seat of power. That's

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Speaker 1: next time on Foundering. Foundering is hosted by me Ellen Hewitt.

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Speaker 1: Sean Wen is our executive producer. Mollie Nugent is our

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Speaker 1: associate producer. Blake Maples is our audio engineer, Mark Million

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Speaker 1: and Vandermain seth Fiegerman, Tom Giles and Molly Schutz are

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Speaker 1: our story editors. We had production help from Jessica Nix

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Speaker 1: and Antonia Mufferetch. Thanks for listening. If you like our show,

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Speaker 1: leave a review, and most importantly, tell your friends. See

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Speaker 1: you next time.