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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: I've Never Told You, production of I Heart Radio's House

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Speaker 1: Stuff Work. So today's episode is inspired by two things too,

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Speaker 1: and I only put one in the outline, so the

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Speaker 1: other one is a surprise, Yeah you got me the

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Speaker 1: first one, the main one being this article from that

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Speaker 1: I read out of The Atlantic called The End of

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Speaker 1: Men by Hannah Rosen, and it was it really got

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Speaker 1: me thinking, and it's the basis of a lot of

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Speaker 1: what we're going to talk about today. And I mentioned

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Speaker 1: it in our Hello episode and this article examined the

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Speaker 1: ways that our society is slash was because it was

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Speaker 1: written ten years ago, um shifting in terms of power dynamics,

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Speaker 1: and it's really fascinating. It's the kind of stuff I

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Speaker 1: really like thinking about, like and yeah, we wanted to

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Speaker 1: talk about some of those things. And she went on

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Speaker 1: to write a book about all of it, called The

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Speaker 1: End of Men and the Rise of Women, if you

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Speaker 1: want to check that out right. So disclaimer before we

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Speaker 1: get into this, This discussion is largely centered around Western

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Speaker 1: civilization and in particular the US, but all of this

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Speaker 1: certainly has global implications and we will definitely get into

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Speaker 1: that as well, and a good bit of this excute

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Speaker 1: hetero as well, so especially head of the household stuff,

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Speaker 1: So you're gonna get a lot of the normative ideas. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so just go ahead with that there. Yeah, And that

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Speaker 1: actually is a good segue into my second reason. Yes,

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Speaker 1: a couple years ago, when my dad first got really ill,

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Speaker 1: like the effects were really making themselves known, my mom

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Speaker 1: and I were in the kitchen and she was kind

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Speaker 1: of seeing, well, what are we going to do about

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Speaker 1: this and this and this, And I jokingly said, perhaps

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Speaker 1: with a little alcohol in me, well I can be

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Speaker 1: the man of the house. And I was talking about, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is this is so stereotypical to under stereotypical.

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Speaker 1: But he did the grilling like, I can do that.

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Speaker 1: I can do that. That's fine, I can carry heavy stuff,

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Speaker 1: I can do that. So it was just this idea

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Speaker 1: that got in my head that we still have this

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Speaker 1: sort of men do this and there the head of

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Speaker 1: the house, and the fact that I just said it

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Speaker 1: jokingly really got me thinking, and so we wanted to

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Speaker 1: take a look at how that is changing, right, And

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Speaker 1: of course this has become a bigger conversation. Yes, and

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Speaker 1: it's getting more and more elaborate because you and I

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Speaker 1: I couldn't stop talking about some of the things that

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Speaker 1: were restarting, and I'm like, and we need to do

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Speaker 1: this because it just became such a whole big storm

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Speaker 1: of underlying issues or even questions, right, And that's actually

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Speaker 1: probably another good disclaimer to put in here. This is

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Speaker 1: obviously perhaps very complicated, right. There is a lot a

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Speaker 1: lot of factors going on, and it's hard to point

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Speaker 1: to things and say, oh, it's this, this thing, and

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Speaker 1: that means it's all going to move this way. It's

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Speaker 1: just so convoluted, right, Anything with sociology is going to

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Speaker 1: be ever growing and ever changing. So that's an obvious

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Speaker 1: disclaimer to everything when we talked abouts or ideology. That

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Speaker 1: should be a blanket disclaimer every episode we do. So

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Speaker 1: we didn't want to start with a couple of key

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Speaker 1: stats and definitions, one being post industrial economy because that's

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Speaker 1: something we're really talking about today. From the dictionary, that

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Speaker 1: is a phrase that describes the shift of some major

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Speaker 1: industrial economies in the late twentieth century away from producing

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Speaker 1: goods and towards producing services. And with that, college degrees

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Speaker 1: women earned three to every two men earned so six

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Speaker 1: women are in a bachelor's degree in the mid two thousands,

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Speaker 1: and there was even concerned about the growing gender gap

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Speaker 1: at public universities. Some elite liberal schools were investigated by

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Speaker 1: the U. S Commission on Civil Rights under the grounds

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Speaker 1: that they were discriminating in emissions in order to maintain

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Speaker 1: what they regard as an appropriate gender balance. And when

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Speaker 1: research suggested that being male increased acceptance rates by up

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Speaker 1: to nine it was regarded as an quote open secret

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Speaker 1: and an acknowncement that men just needed a little help.

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Speaker 1: That's a quote too. They asked an admissions dean of

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Speaker 1: admissions and he said, well, we just men just need

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Speaker 1: a little extra push, like they just need a little help. What.

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Speaker 1: As of seventy two point five percent of girls who

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Speaker 1: had graduated high school were enrolled in two or four

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Speaker 1: year colleges, compared to sixty percent of boys. Fifty six

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Speaker 1: percent of college students were women, And I found a

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Speaker 1: whole infuriating essay arguing that women were just entering college

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Speaker 1: at high rates did get an m RS. So they

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Speaker 1: were going to drop out when they got married. Were

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Speaker 1: you go to find your husband? Yeah? You know, That's

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Speaker 1: what I've been told I didn't another way, we didn't

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Speaker 1: GM blast And this college degree thing, for better or worse,

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Speaker 1: it's a big deal when it comes to finding a

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Speaker 1: job in our post industrial economy. For a long time,

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Speaker 1: men without college educations could depend on manual labor based jobs.

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Speaker 1: But those jobs are disappearing and they are going to

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Speaker 1: continue to disappear. After the recession, almost eight point five

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Speaker 1: million of the about eleven point six jobs created required

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Speaker 1: a college degree. And there's been recent research at every

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Speaker 1: level of education looking into why boys underperformed when compared

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Speaker 1: to girls, and all kinds of reasons have been suggested.

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Speaker 1: Curriculum biased towards girls, brain chemistry, all the such. And

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Speaker 1: studies have found too that boys who do well in

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Speaker 1: school get made fun of more than girls, often with

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Speaker 1: some sort of insult comparing them to a girl. Oh no, right.

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Speaker 1: Surveys have found that girls are more concerned about getting

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Speaker 1: good grades, and maybe we could say that, we too,

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Speaker 1: hold girls at a higher standard and punish them more

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Speaker 1: when they don't meet those standards. Yeah. I remember the

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Speaker 1: first time I got to be and I was grounded,

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Speaker 1: and I can't tell you my brother's grades compared to mine,

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Speaker 1: And how little. They were grounded. I'm not better about right.

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Speaker 1: I think for me my brothers, there was always excuses

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Speaker 1: why they didn't well, not not not oldest brothers a genius,

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Speaker 1: and he did well everything he did. My younger older brother,

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Speaker 1: I'm the youngest, he didn't do as well, and there

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Speaker 1: was reasons as to why, and he was just not

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Speaker 1: that type and all of those things. That's where it

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Speaker 1: was just expected. So when I did make those good grades,

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Speaker 1: I didn't get celebrated. It was just like, yeah, of course, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right, of course. Like it wasn't that I was

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Speaker 1: punished if I didn't do well. It was just like, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I made an eighty nine and got in trouble. I

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Speaker 1: made one. See, my heart didn't actually hurt that. It

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Speaker 1: was like the fifth grade though. It's fine, It's all fine,

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Speaker 1: we are, that's okay. UM. To combat these these things

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Speaker 1: we were talking about about UM, boys underperforming compared to

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Speaker 1: girls in schools at young age especially, researchers have suggested

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Speaker 1: all kinds of things from all boys classes, giving boys

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Speaker 1: more time on test and allowing them to walk around

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Speaker 1: the classroom. And the US is not the only place

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Speaker 1: this education gap is occurring. There a lot of articles

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Speaker 1: you can find um in different countries where even up

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Speaker 1: to the government they're looking into into this and why

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Speaker 1: I might be. And then once you move out of college,

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Speaker 1: let's look at the workforce. A majority of the fastest

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Speaker 1: growing job sectors are currently dominated by women, with notable

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Speaker 1: exception for stem jobs, which is changing. Yes. Two statistics

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Speaker 1: from the U. S Department of Labor found that women

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Speaker 1: made over fifty of accountant positions, over fifty of professional

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Speaker 1: slash manage real jobs, over fifty of banking and insurance jobs,

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Speaker 1: and of law firm associates. Also of physicians. Yes, And

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Speaker 1: as we discussed in that Hello episode, a lot of

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Speaker 1: the jobs that are being automated are in sectors traditionally

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Speaker 1: dominated by men. Wild jobs that can't be so easily replaced.

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Speaker 1: Jobs that requiring our personal skills like listening and empathy

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Speaker 1: have long been dominated by women. And to be here,

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Speaker 1: as we said numerous times, women aren't naturally better at

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Speaker 1: those things, were certainly socialized to be better at those things.

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Speaker 1: But there's nothing stopping men from going into stay nursing

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Speaker 1: or teaching jobs like that. A lot of the articles

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Speaker 1: on the subject brought that up, and that women have

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Speaker 1: been able to adapt to traditionally magualized jobs, so men

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Speaker 1: haven't been able to or unwilling to to adapt to

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Speaker 1: feminize jobs. Women are more likely to adopt traditionally masculine

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Speaker 1: traits like assertiveness along with traditionally feminine coded traits, whereas

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Speaker 1: men still largely avoid being associated with feminine traits sexism.

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Speaker 1: It hurts everybody. It hurts everybody. It will be interesting

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Speaker 1: to see if men do eventually move into these jobs,

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Speaker 1: especially if the compensation goes up, as has happened so

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Speaker 1: many times before, like in computer engineering. As a social worker,

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Speaker 1: that was one of the big pushes UM trying to

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Speaker 1: get male students as a part of the actual demographics,

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Speaker 1: and they being told, they were told to their face,

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Speaker 1: you will get paid more, will move up faster, because

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Speaker 1: you would be one of the few men in this field. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I remember that. We're looking around, going any what's happening.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think she was saying that as just

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Speaker 1: a statement and not necessarily as a pro or con.

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Speaker 1: It was just this is what's going to happen. You

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Speaker 1: should stay in this. Well, this is the reality. So

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Speaker 1: women in leadership positions, particularly management, have risen, though we

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Speaker 1: still have a long ways to go. Wage gap. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: it's still a big, big problem because we continue to

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Speaker 1: talk about it in almost every sector, in almost every field. Um,

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Speaker 1: what did that reason study say, did you not talking

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Speaker 1: about it? Was like, it only takes oh, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: two fifty seven years for the gap to close. Everything's

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Speaker 1: gonna be perfectly fine in the world, right as I'll

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Speaker 1: not burning flames right now. Yes, we have high hopes, hopes,

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Speaker 1: And then yeah, let's talk about this head of the

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Speaker 1: household thing. Women still do a majority of unpaid to

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Speaker 1: stick work. We talked about that all the time, like cleaning, cooking,

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Speaker 1: and childcare. They make up most of American consumer choices

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Speaker 1: and spending and control a good chunk of the financial decisions,

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Speaker 1: although there is conflicting data on that point. In either

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Speaker 1: case is close to fift so they're controlling a lot

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Speaker 1: of what's going on in the household. Working mothers are

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Speaker 1: the primary income earner four out of ten times, and

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Speaker 1: the average working mom brings home about forty five of

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Speaker 1: family income. This means that the traditional family dynamic is changing.

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Speaker 1: And then, of course there's the life expectancy in the

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Speaker 1: US and most countries women have longer life expectancies. American

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Speaker 1: women live five years longer on average here in the

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Speaker 1: United States. Right, so that's a good thing. Maybe maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe I mean more exactly, that is a like longer

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Speaker 1: of an expense we have to pay for. And if

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Speaker 1: you aren't making money or you're there's a wage gap

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Speaker 1: and you should have more money. And right, that is

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Speaker 1: a bit of a problem. Right, Actually, let's look back

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Speaker 1: on the pass. Let's do it. Yes, so things are

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Speaker 1: changing very rapidly. The seventies when American women started entering

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Speaker 1: the workforce and mass happened to coincide with companies moving

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Speaker 1: their offices out to the suburbs for lower rent. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: who did they find writing eager to fill those positions? Women, Yes,

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Speaker 1: they did. Also in the nineteen seventies, a man named

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Speaker 1: Ronald Ericsson started leasing to clinics what he touted as

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Speaker 1: the first scientific method of choosing the sex of a baby.

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Speaker 1: He grew up on a ranch, and he would show

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Speaker 1: up to presentations and cowboy hat and boots, sometimes using

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Speaker 1: a pointer made out of the cartilage from a bull's penis. Also,

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Speaker 1: his ranch is the backdrop to the Malboro Man's ranch.

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Speaker 1: That's his place, So that's that's kind of a picture

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Speaker 1: of this guy. He was such a presence that People

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Speaker 1: magazine pitched a television mini series about him called Cowboy

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Speaker 1: in the ub A Maz sounds like a winner, sounds

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Speaker 1: like this is so seventies to me. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if it is, but for some reason it feels very seventies.

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Speaker 1: But not everyone at People was a fan of this guy.

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Speaker 1: In the right. Up on Ericson, Roberto Steinbacher wrote, you

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Speaker 1: have to be concerned about the future of all women.

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Speaker 1: There's no question that there exists a universal preference for sons.

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Speaker 1: So her concern being, everyone's going to choose boys if

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Speaker 1: there if this technology is available, everyone's gonna go with boys, obviously, right.

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Speaker 1: But it turned out this was not the case. A

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Speaker 1: couple of decades later, the nineties, Erickson surveyed the twenty

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Speaker 1: or so is clinics that offered his method and found

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Speaker 1: that more people were choosing girls as opposed to boys,

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that advertisements touted as more successful at

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Speaker 1: producing boys. And yes, I think this is still a thing.

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Speaker 1: You can still do it. Ericson claims that women used

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Speaker 1: to tindally request for a girl. Like maybe they'd say, oh,

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Speaker 1: I already have a son, I'd like a girl. But now,

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Speaker 1: and this is a quote, they just call and say, outright,

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Speaker 1: I want a girl. These mothers look at their lives

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Speaker 1: and think their daughters will have a bright future. Their

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Speaker 1: mother and grandmother didn't have brighter than their sons. Even so,

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Speaker 1: why wouldn't you choose a girl. Another company that does

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Speaker 1: pretty much the same thing, called micro Sort, purportedly gets

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Speaker 1: about seventy request for girls. I wonder if part of

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Speaker 1: that is also they know that the girls will take

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Speaker 1: care of the geriatric level. That is a good point.

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Speaker 1: Always looking out. I just I'm thinking about what's going

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Speaker 1: to happen to me when I'm all like, who's gonna

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Speaker 1: take care of me? Beaches, It's definitely not gonna take

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Speaker 1: care of me, It's true. So that's huge when we

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Speaker 1: think about the history of women being property and of

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Speaker 1: not having access to opportunity. Men have been in power

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Speaker 1: just about everywhere for you know, forever. So Queen's murdered

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Speaker 1: for not having sons bearing an air. Ancient Greek men

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Speaker 1: allegedly tied off their left testicle in the belief this

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Speaker 1: would increase their chances of having a boy, and if

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Speaker 1: you wanted a girl, you tied off the right and

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Speaker 1: ate a lot of salad. Yes, there's so many hilarious

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Speaker 1: history jokes about salad. I have a whole book on that.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's just the whole thing, you know, it is, okay,

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Speaker 1: I mean, just in general, salads somehow get you laid,

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Speaker 1: somehow get you a girl, okay, whatever, But all of that,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's an aphrodisiac, which I still hold to the

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Speaker 1: point that that's not sexy. I've never been sexy eating

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Speaker 1: a salad, just so you know, Actually, okay, the salad

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Speaker 1: is the only food item I've I've read that it's

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Speaker 1: an aphrodisiac, but it's the only food item I've done.

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Speaker 1: On my other shows, Savor that we found was references,

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Speaker 1: not an It's not sexy. I've watched myself eating a

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Speaker 1: salad and and it's not pretty. You get the long

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Speaker 1: leaves and there, and then you just shoveling more because

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Speaker 1: it's not hasty, and then you're like spitting out half

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Speaker 1: the tomatoes, and then the dressing is dribbling down your faith.

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Speaker 1: It's not sexy. It's not I mean, eating it makes

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Speaker 1: me feel sexy, and I'm like, you know, sal is delicious,

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Speaker 1: but okay, anyway, the importance of firstborn sons as the

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Speaker 1: most valuable in things like the Bible as we know,

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Speaker 1: or if we look at more modern things like China's

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Speaker 1: one child policy and the clear preference for boys, that's

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Speaker 1: having an enormous impact to this day. And we see that,

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Speaker 1: we see that as a conversation, we see that as

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Speaker 1: policy changing as well a little lot of places. And

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Speaker 1: I think if you do look back at the Bible

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Speaker 1: and if we even look about inheritance rights and who

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Speaker 1: has rights to property, even not up until recent who

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Speaker 1: gets claim yes, yes, um, I actually have in my

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Speaker 1: family an example of the the man of the family

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Speaker 1: inheriting everything over all of the women in it. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: Rosen also details the example of South Korea. We're up

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Speaker 1: until the seventies and eighties, women who didn't have boys

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Speaker 1: were often abused, um for us to be domestic servants.

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Speaker 1: That started changing when restrictions around women in the workplace

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Speaker 1: were lifted and droves of women went to universities and

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Speaker 1: got jobs, and then things just snowballed from their laws

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Speaker 1: changing to give women more autonomy and agency owning property,

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Speaker 1: keeping custody of their children. Survey of South Korean women

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Speaker 1: found that over fifty percent said they must have a son.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand three, that number was only fift okay,

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Speaker 1: So it makes economic sense that countries that embrace all

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Speaker 1: of their people as resources as opposed to just half

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Speaker 1: of them would have more success. So there's sort of

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Speaker 1: a domino effect of countries taking note of the financial

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Speaker 1: power of women in the workplace and following suit. Political

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Speaker 1: quotas have played a role in this shift as well.

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Speaker 1: So indicators are everywhere. Of private businesses are owned by

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Speaker 1: women in China, and about fifty of entrepreneurs in that

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Speaker 1: country are women, which is amazing because the population is women,

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Speaker 1: so that's amazing number. A couple of years ago, women

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Speaker 1: in China protested after some universities put policies in place

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Speaker 1: that made it harder for them to gain entrance after

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Speaker 1: the acceptance rate tilted towards women. And then in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and nine, Iceland elected Prime Minister Johanna set Here,

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Speaker 1: the first openly lesbian head of state. She ran on

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Speaker 1: the platform of ending the quote age of testosterone, pointing

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Speaker 1: to the damage done by the rich men who ruined

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Speaker 1: that country's banking system the age of testosterone. Some evidence

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Speaker 1: suggests that our post industrial economy might just be easier

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Speaker 1: for women to navigate. During the two thousand eight recessions,

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Speaker 1: of the eight million of American jobs loss were held

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Speaker 1: by men, with a lot of traditionally male sectors getting

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Speaker 1: hit the hardest. And that brings us to a section

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Speaker 1: on some backlash and fall out to all of this.

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Speaker 1: Are you surprised? Yes, But first it brings us to

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Speaker 1: a quick break for a word from our sponsor, and

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Speaker 1: we're back, thank you sponsor. And yes, we're back with

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Speaker 1: some backlash to all of this, So let's talk about that.

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Speaker 1: So the nostalgia election of Trump, there is certainly an

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Speaker 1: argument to be made, and it has been made that

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Speaker 1: working classmen afraid of their place in this new economy

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Speaker 1: and all of the social change helped elect Trump. Nostalgia

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Speaker 1: is a very powerful thing, and of course so was

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Speaker 1: fear um, which is trying to start over again. That's scary,

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Speaker 1: and thinking that you've lost your good privilege in your

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Speaker 1: place in life, which was nice and comfy. It's all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden question, yeah, and I mean comfy and

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Speaker 1: coal mining maybe not, but you had to. You had

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Speaker 1: a set job and you were securing that job and

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Speaker 1: it's being threatened now. And I feel like it was

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Speaker 1: one of the most annoying things to me personally during

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Speaker 1: the election cycle and post election, when there's precisely one

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Speaker 1: million news stories on older white men who used to

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Speaker 1: mind coal and they're really mad about it now and

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Speaker 1: they wanted to come back. Right, Well, the world is changing, right,

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Speaker 1: it's burning again. Literally, the world is burning. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for listening. Story. We always strive to leave you on

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Speaker 1: a high no field upbeat as part of this backlash

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Speaker 1: and fought. One of the most interesting things I found,

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Speaker 1: or that Hannah Rosen found and I got to discover

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Speaker 1: thanks to her her great work in that article. Uh

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Speaker 1: male support groups that have sprung up across the country,

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Speaker 1: but particularly in areas hardest hit by the changes of

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Speaker 1: post industrial economy, like in areas that were big and coal.

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Speaker 1: These groups focus on things like coping with job loss,

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Speaker 1: are shifting family dynamics. Mustafa el Skari leads one such

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Speaker 1: group in Kansas City, mostly populated by men required to

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Speaker 1: attend after not paying child support or or something like that.

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Speaker 1: On one of the Knights Rose in attended else you

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Speaker 1: lectured quote, what is our role? Everyone's telling us we're

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Speaker 1: supposed to be the head of a nuclear family, so

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Speaker 1: you feel like you got robbed. It's toxic and poisonous

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Speaker 1: and it's setting us up for failure. Then he went

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Speaker 1: to the white board and wrote, eighty five dollars, this

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Speaker 1: is her salary. Then twelve dollars, this is your salary.

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Speaker 1: Who's the damn man? Who's the man? Now that's right,

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Speaker 1: She's the man. It's a great movie, Amanda Bides. I'm

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Speaker 1: just saying, oh wow, what a throwback. I wasn't expecting.

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Speaker 1: You're welcome. And though it's not a support grade, it

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Speaker 1: does seem like unsolicited conventions and programs are popping up

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Speaker 1: promising to make men manly or or more bad ass

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Speaker 1: and women great again. And I'm sure you guys have

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Speaker 1: referenced or heard of this reference and I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: allowed right anymore. But it includes a promise, because you

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Speaker 1: and I went on to sites to look at these things,

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Speaker 1: and including a promise to increase your femininity by five, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, is hilarious and frightening. Because I'm cool

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Speaker 1: with where I'm at. All I'm imagine is like I

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Speaker 1: just constantly bleed for years and years and for the

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Speaker 1: rest of my life. That's the level of femininity that

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Speaker 1: I don't never want to be at. So it leads

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Speaker 1: to your dead just like forever periods for the rest

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Speaker 1: of your life. Oh gosh, that sounds horrible. Rights guarantee,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure I want more of anything? Right, which

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Speaker 1: is like, where did he? Where did you prove it?

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Speaker 1: Where did this number come from? Are we saying these

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Speaker 1: conferences aren't scrupulous? Is it meaning that I will forever

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Speaker 1: turn away from men altogether because you've scared me away

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Speaker 1: from men in such a way that I just want

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Speaker 1: to go into my hut and my island of my

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Speaker 1: lady friends and those who are like, yeah, you know

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying, or my friends who identify as females

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Speaker 1: or non binary and just hang out with them. That

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Speaker 1: would be a beautiful world. I think that would be

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Speaker 1: the complete opposite of what they would want. But that's true.

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Speaker 1: They didn't think this through. They didn't think it through.

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Speaker 1: Who could believe it? Who knew? There are other issues

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Speaker 1: to other backlashes. I guess the boon of men inheriting

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Speaker 1: a family business or a farm might now be more

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Speaker 1: of a curse. If the business does not make a

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Speaker 1: profit in our modern economy, or the farm doesn't the

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Speaker 1: women would or could go off to the city, get

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Speaker 1: an education, a job, and when they return, if they

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Speaker 1: ever do return, the men feel like their status isn't

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Speaker 1: up to part. Compared to that, Statistics show that compared

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Speaker 1: to nineteen seventy of women between the ages of thirty

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Speaker 1: to forty four were married. Nowadays, it's only about sixty.

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Speaker 1: Some of the reasons suggested for why that might be

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Speaker 1: are that women can't find men with comparable education and income,

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Speaker 1: and that's something that's really important to them. And I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you all probably heard the headline, pretty sure we've

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Speaker 1: mentioned it on this show before that. Semi recently made

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Speaker 1: their rounds about how the researcher Mail researcher said that

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Speaker 1: while marriage benefited men and children, he did not recommend

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Speaker 1: it for women. He said that in the article he

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Speaker 1: said single women are quote the happiest group of people,

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Speaker 1: which is such a reverse of how we're portrayed every phase.

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Speaker 1: Such a huge reversion for a man to say that,

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Speaker 1: even I know. So we're seeing this play out all

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Speaker 1: of our media to the displaced man who feels lost

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Speaker 1: like a loser. So like films knocked up four year

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Speaker 1: old virgin, she's out of my league, Noah Bombux Greenberg

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Speaker 1: and even yes, these underachievers usually do still get the

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Speaker 1: woman that is quote out of their lead. Right. We've

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Speaker 1: seen the backlash trip of the Cougar and the double

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Speaker 1: standards therein. However, else Gal Collins wrote in The New

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Speaker 1: York Times, the trope is more and more starting to

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Speaker 1: look like desperate young American men who are latching on

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Speaker 1: to an older woman who's a good earner a k a.

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Speaker 1: Every other Tyler Perry movie ever. Just say it, just

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Speaker 1: saying so up in the air. The whole plot is

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Speaker 1: about George Clooney, multiple Sixtiest Man Alive winner, who plays

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Speaker 1: a dude in the midst of layoffs told by his

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Speaker 1: younger female co worker he's too old, and then he

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Speaker 1: finds out that the woman that is his aid he

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Speaker 1: just hoicked up with and consequently of course falls in

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Speaker 1: love with, is married with kids. The betrayal. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: that's such a huge flip two because normally that would

428
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 1: be I mean, it's George Clooney, and normally that would

429
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: be the woman she falls in love if you're having

430
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,400
Speaker 1: a casual hook up and she finds out he's got

431
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: a family. But it's it's flipping. And of course there's

432
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of double standards we can

433
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 1: talk about here, especially with the Cougar. We gotta come

434
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 1: back to that one day, um, because we just had

435
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: a good idea of our hard movie based on Freddy Kruger.

436
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: But with the cougar anyway, slip up, Yeah, that's the

437
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,719
Speaker 1: kind of slip up that is the best kind of

438
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 1: flip up. And Jessica Gross's Slate article Oh May of

439
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,199
Speaker 1: Males and the Women who Hate Them, she details the

440
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: Omega male who men who are unemployed and have trouble

441
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 1: in the romantic department, men who were told as boys

442
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: that they'd grow up and have everything, could be anything,

443
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: and then that just didn't happen, and sort of what

444
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: that results in. Um, well, if we look at the future,

445
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: and I was thinking personally, how I've seen things change.

446
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: I have seen a lot of what we're talking about

447
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: reflected in my own friend groups, where my female friends

448
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: they say, look here, here are my standards. If you

449
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: don't meet them, I'm fine by myself. And that that's

450
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: for dating, but also for friends like this, this is

451
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 1: this is what I want. I'm gonna go kick gas,

452
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go work hard. I'm gonna focus on myself

453
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 1: and um that's if I happen to meet somebody along

454
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 1: the way, great, otherwise whatever, And personally, I can say

455
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: I used to have a very severe fear that I

456
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: would settle one day, and I don't have that fear

457
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: at all anymore. Um, I would absolutely had to be alone, right.

458
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,479
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of where we are now. I

459
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: was thinking about this earlier today, um being almost forty

460
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: end of keep mentioning that you're welcome everyone, um presence,

461
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: how I have again, we haven't met all of these

462
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 1: expectations in life, or I haven't hit all of the

463
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 1: milestones that I thought I was supposed to. And I

464
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: was thinking about children today and up thinking am I

465
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 1: abnormal that I don't even have an inkling of yes,

466
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,239
Speaker 1: I need a child, I need to bear children, you know,

467
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 1: or have something to take care of, and that I'm

468
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: very happy with just being quote unquote a dog mom,

469
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 1: you know. And then the candle that says that everybody

470
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: I just want I did not for myself. But you've

471
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: got one anyway, I can't. I can't deny it anyway.

472
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 1: But yeah, so all of those things have come to

473
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 1: the point that I'm because I know my body is

474
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: getting to the point that I'm not going to be

475
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 1: able to have ability to have children or whether you know,

476
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: because my biological clock has quit on me or fell

477
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: out or I pushed it out. However you know, I'm

478
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:14,959
Speaker 1: chunken away however you want to take it. About it

479
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: that but it's not something that I missed. It's not

480
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: something that I feel like I'm gonna regret because it's

481
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: not come into my mind. And I just thought about

482
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: that today and I was like, huh, I'm wondering, how

483
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: am I just a weird? Am I just an abnormal person?

484
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: Am I is there's something wrong with me? Because I

485
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 1: don't even have those feelings and I expected to have it. Um.

486
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: But I think that's a question of all right, So

487
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: what does that mean? Because when we go back and

488
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: forth about all right, we're coming to the age that

489
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: we are supposed to be in these places in our lives,

490
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: but we missed those points and to the point that

491
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: I'm like, I care for myself I do not have

492
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: men to do these things for me. I do my father.

493
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: I know I could depend on him if I had questions,

494
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: but he's not someone I go too often. He's not

495
00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: someone that I looked to to help me out all

496
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 1: the time. I buy my own car, I buy my

497
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: you know, like all of those things. I signed off

498
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: on my own insurance stuff. I make these decisions all us.

499
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 1: Not wish someone would make it for me. Sometimes it

500
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 1: would be nice, but all of those things that, you know,

501
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: for the longest time, I thought I had to have

502
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: a husband, a partner to do this with, or that

503
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: eventually would become something that would do with. You know,

504
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 1: if I do in a buying a house, what does

505
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: that look like? And we no longer have to have that,

506
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: that's not a requirement, and so therefore all of these

507
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,919
Speaker 1: things are being met without the need for that partner,

508
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, and that's uh, we're not really going

509
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 1: to talk about this today, but those are definitely other

510
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: factors too. Of I think it's interesting that as life

511
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: expectancy has gone on and with things like birth control,

512
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: we're not making these decisions as young anymore, but people

513
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: still do. And I wonder because I thought I wanted

514
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: kids when I was like probably up until twenty two

515
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: or something. I think that that was like twenty eight

516
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: when I thought it's still yeah. There. I there was

517
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: a pretty long time when I was very convinced um.

518
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: And if I had found somebody I was really into

519
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: and got pregnant, then maybe I would be It's just

520
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: your your brain changes and your wants changes, and it

521
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:24,719
Speaker 1: feels like I just wonder how many things that are changing.

522
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: A part of that is we're we have access to

523
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: birth control, and you know, we were thinking about, well,

524
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: I how can I afford this? If you're telling me

525
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: I gotta I can't. There's a wage gap, and I'll

526
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: like the what is it? We haven't gotten raises in forever.

527
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: Cost of living changed constantly, but we don't get raises.

528
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,239
Speaker 1: As a government worker, I've never got one, I think.

529
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: And by the way of minimum it is not that

530
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: much essentially, UM. But that's kind of the thing and

531
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: everything else is. Wouldn't we look at the household. My

532
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: household is not make up with a man in it.

533
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: My household and me and my dog, Me and a dog,

534
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,239
Speaker 1: you know, And I think that's been the way it is,

535
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: and that's gonna be the way it is for a

536
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: long while. Even with being in a relationship or whatever,

537
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,479
Speaker 1: it's still not I consider that as, hey, what are

538
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: we going to do? Of course I'm gonna be considered

539
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: and ask you to be part of this or whatever,

540
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: but you're not a part of my household, you know.

541
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: And it's kind of to me the same as like

542
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: my relationship with him is similar to my relationship with

543
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: you in that friendship of Hey, you're coming over, let's

544
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: have dinner. I'm going to give you food, I'm gonna

545
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: give you drinks. I'm going to give you a pillow.

546
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you whatever you need. You're getting

547
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: a drawer, which again it's still more than he's got,

548
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 1: so as it should be, as it should be. And yeah,

549
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: we're definitely like I have friends who have the house,

550
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: the household and the kids and the perfect well not

551
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: perfect partnership, and it is. Yeah, we don't want to

552
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: look down upon that at all. I think it's just

553
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: changing how we view it and the multitude of experiences

554
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: that can be encompassed in it. I think that we're

555
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: noting the changes and then the last changes that are

556
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: happening because also I know for a lot of people

557
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: who have that set up, who can't have children, who

558
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: are unable to have children, you know, that's a heartbreaking

559
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: part of their lives too, and that's something we need

560
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: to acknowledge as well. And again, things are changing and

561
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: hopefully changing for the better. Goes um to have that

562
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: as an accomplishment as well, right, if that's what an

563
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: accomlish is for you. And we do have a little

564
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: bit more some concluding thoughts, but first we have one

565
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: more quick break for work from our sponsor and we're back,

566
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. So we've been kind of painting. I

567
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: suppose you could categorize it as a rosy p sure,

568
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: other than the world is burning, um, but there there's

569
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: still a lot of a lot of things that are

570
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: troubling that we need to combat. One, men still control

571
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: much of the wealth and higher paid positions without access

572
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: to things like paternity, even affordable childcare. I personally don't

573
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: think that's going to change anytime soon, as more women

574
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: run for office and when policies are getting proposed addressing

575
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: these things. So that's good, that's progress that's going to

576
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,239
Speaker 1: have a ripple effect on women and people everywhere. As

577
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: we've said, a lot of these things are new, so

578
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: there are growing pains, and we have not seen the

579
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: full impact of these changes and what that impact will be.

580
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: For instance, women do make up a majority of university students,

581
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: but um are nowhere near represented in college leadership. That's

582
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: that's going to change, because as we see these waves

583
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: of women graduate, it's just gonna have to and having

584
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: women in those positions is going to set off a

585
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: whole other chain of reactions and changes, and it's gonna

586
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: be easy, and it's gonna take time, but the ratifications

587
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: of that are huge. However, companies do see this as

588
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: a failure in retention, often referring to it as a

589
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: brain drain. Article after article offer advice to companies about

590
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: how to retain women, and women who do rise up

591
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: the corporate pairment are highly sought after and they're competitively paid,

592
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: often earning higher raises. Yeah, but the pool is still

593
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: small boo. And of course there's all this recent research

594
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: that shows the companies that hire more women and have

595
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: more women in leadership positions perform better. Corporations are taking

596
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: note of all of this, please do instituting policies of

597
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: flex time and mentor programs, which is a very great thing. Yeah,

598
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: and there are even courses at universities aimed at helping

599
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: leaders cultivate more traditionally feminine traits like reading body language,

600
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: and I actually taught one of these classes myself. Earlier.

601
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: Research even suggest that people are starting to view women

602
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: as more level headed. And this is probably at least

603
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: in part due to women for so long being gaslighted

604
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: about being emotional, and also that level of perfectionism which

605
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 1: isn't healthy but makes us push ourselves that we've talked

606
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: about before on the show. And also also that whole

607
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,439
Speaker 1: women mature earlyer thing, or girls mature earlier thing, which

608
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: is now being turned around against men in some professional settings,

609
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: as in they just take longer to mature. They'll get

610
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: there eventually. However, as our society transforms, we're redefining what

611
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: leadership looks like in the qualities that come with it.

612
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: Another part of this, I mean, uh, if you want

613
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: to look at Brett Kavin on Christine Blaisie Ford, we

614
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: can see he's sort of freaking out having the what

615
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: items the tantrums, Yeah, that we would have generally call

616
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: point out for women, like being emotional while she was

617
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: just even kill reasonable um, but still she got criticized.

618
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: Why don't whatever are hungry? Yes, and a burnout is

619
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: another part of this conversation that we've talked about before.

620
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: We're not really going to get into today, but these

621
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: expectations on women to push themselves, it does lead to

622
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: high rates of burnout. And of course there are still

623
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: barriers to access when it comes to women with lower

624
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,399
Speaker 1: incomes who can't afford a college education, which is by

625
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,919
Speaker 1: and large a prerequisite for a lot of what we're

626
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: talking about, and women of color still face more obstacles

627
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: than compared to white women. Black women, for instance, who

628
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: face both sexism and racism and education and the workfor

629
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: us everywhere, are far likelier to be sold breadwinners for

630
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: their households and stood at. Debt is also obviously a

631
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 1: huge problem, which is why it's going into a huge

632
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: mode of debate. Yeah. One study found that if American

633
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 1: women participated in the workforce at the same rates of

634
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: Canada or Germany, it would add five hundred billion dollars

635
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: to our economy a year away. To address this would

636
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: be again paid fraternity le flexible hours, equal pay, and

637
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 1: affordable child care. Another problem is the series types are

638
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: still there that women can't lead, for one, impacting how

639
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: both men and women see women's place in society. The

640
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: statistics for women are still in a lot of ways

641
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 1: bleak when you think about women dominating the lowest paying

642
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 1: jobs while men dominate the highest, the rates of sexual

643
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: assaught and violence against women. The smaller things we've just

644
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,800
Speaker 1: for so long accepted, like constant exhaustion, harrassment, having pain dismissed,

645
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: not getting sexual satisfaction at the same rates. The picture

646
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: for women in some areas of the world is definitely

647
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 1: not as rosy as what we've been talking about today.

648
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: Sex trafficking is at an all time high, abuse, genital mutilation.

649
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: As some people rise up, it's our responsibility to uplift others.

650
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: And all of this work isn't necessarily good for us either.

651
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: It's stressful and exhausting. Men have more leisure time compared

652
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: to women. Yes, and we don't want to leave made behind.

653
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: Feminism is about equality. Yes. Sexism hurts everyone, like what

654
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: you said, and one of the ways it has historically

655
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 1: done that for men is keeping them from forming support groups,

656
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: which would be helpful during this time of massive shift

657
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: It's alarming but not too surprising that a lot of

658
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 1: the support groups that have formed our men's rights groups

659
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: that view women's increased agency as dangerous could die into this.

660
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: We don't really have time to talk about it today,

661
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 1: but the conversation around the crisis of masculinity, toxic masculinity,

662
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 1: will definitely come back to that. Yeah, And and just

663
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: to kind of put this in there, because while we

664
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: were reading, you and I had this big discussion and yes,

665
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: again we're going to talk a little more about toxic

666
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: masculinity and all of that. And I know we've been

667
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: talking about it and people have been talking about it,

668
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: but um, and during our research we found Arthur and feminists.

669
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: Susan Faludi asked in her book Stiff, The Betrayal of

670
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: the American Man, if perhaps we're looking at the problem

671
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: and even solution incorrectly, She writes, Today it is men

672
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,879
Speaker 1: who clean more tightly to their illusions. They would rather

673
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: see themselves as battered by feminism than shaped by the

674
00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: larger culture. Feminism can be demonized as just an quote

675
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: unnatural force to try to rest men's natural power and

676
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 1: control from their grasp. Culture, by contrast, is the whole

677
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: environment we live in to acknowledge its ways, to admit

678
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: that men never had the power slash control they imagined.

679
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: To say that men are embedded in the culture is

680
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: to say, by the current standards of masculinity that they

681
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: are not men. So this could all be a whole

682
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: other conversation about the reality of misogyny and the idea

683
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 1: of what control and what does it look like when

684
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 1: we take a closer look at the root of the

685
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: idea of misogyny and power. And again, we do want

686
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: to look deeper into this in future episodes of the

687
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: Root and possible underlying questions and unraveling misogyny, which, yes,

688
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: huge astonomical conversation, but hey, we got some time, right, yes,

689
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 1: And I would love to talk about that, because when

690
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: I was thinking about all this again, this is the

691
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: this is the stuff that gets me going. And I've

692
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: been thinking a lot about control and what that means,

693
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 1: what that looks like, and what a world that was

694
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: actually about equality, what that would look like and dismantling

695
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 1: these systems we've put in place that of oppressed people exactly.

696
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: And then just the fact that the word control is

697
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: a heavy word, heavy handed word, and it is used

698
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: in a very negative connotation right now. I think that

699
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 1: when you use that word that means power over someone,

700
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 1: that's automatic, whether it means that or not, whether it's

701
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 1: controlling your emotions where it is still power over something,

702
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: and that in itself causes fear and a lot of questions.

703
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: It does, It does, And if you have a lot

704
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: of questions for us, what you can send them to us.

705
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 1: Our email is Stuff Media, mom Stuff at i heeart

706
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 1: media dot com. You can also find us on Instagram

707
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 1: at Stuff I've Never Told You and on Twitter at

708
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our superproducer Andrew Howard. Yes,

709
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: thank you all, and thanks to you for listening Stuff

710
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 1: I've Never Told You his protection of Iheartradios how Stuff

711
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 1: works for more podcasts from iHeartRadio, is that I Hear Radio, Apple,

712
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,760
Speaker 1: Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

713
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: M