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Speaker 1: Couples come in basically saying, doctor, can you change my partner?

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Speaker 1: I think you guys should just break up and stop

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Speaker 1: torturing each other, or I'm just not the right person

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Speaker 1: for you.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Ornigerolnik is a clinical psychologist, psychoanalyst, and a writer.

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Speaker 1: The star of the groundbreaking show Couple's Therapy.

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Speaker 2: She explores the depths of human relationships in trauma. Everyone

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Speaker 2: feels like they've dated a narcissist? How accurate?

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Speaker 1: Are one hundred percent accurate?

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Speaker 2: When you find couples coming with financial issues, is it

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Speaker 2: really about money?

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Speaker 1: They want to feel like no, money doesn't matter, but

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Speaker 1: it matters to everyone.

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Speaker 2: Do more people want more intimacy or more sex? What's

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Speaker 2: the first hard question you should ask yourself in a relationship?

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Speaker 1: Can I give?

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Speaker 2: What about when someone feels I've given them too many

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Speaker 2: chances and they're just not shifting?

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Speaker 1: That would have been a situation where I would say

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Speaker 1: that the pain of divorce is worth it.

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Speaker 2: How do you know your relationship is strong enough? I

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Speaker 2: would say The number one health and wellness podcast Jay Sendi, Jay,

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Speaker 2: Shenny Only Jetty. Hey, everyone, welcome back to on Purpose,

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Speaker 2: the place you come to become the happier, healthier, and

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Speaker 2: more healed. Today's guest is doctor Horna Gerolnick, a clinical

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Speaker 2: psychologist and psychoanalyst, best known as the therapist on Showtime

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Speaker 2: series Couples Therapy, where she guides real life couples with

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Speaker 2: transformative conversations and breakthroughs. With her expertise in relationship dynamics, trauma,

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Speaker 2: and creating healthy habits, doctor Garolnick has started making couples

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Speaker 2: ask the hard questions. Welcome to on Purpose, Doctor Horna,

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Speaker 2: Girlnick Honor, thank you, j thank you for being here.

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Speaker 2: As I said to you, this is my favorite topic.

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Speaker 2: I believe it's one of the most important parts of

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Speaker 2: our lives. Agree and it's the area of our life

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Speaker 2: that seems to hold so much power in our happiness.

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Speaker 2: Yet we have zero training, zero education, and zero focus

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Speaker 2: on being good at it. So having you here is amazing.

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Speaker 2: You're such a phenomenal expend this space, and I want

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Speaker 2: to start off by asking you what would you say

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Speaker 2: are the top three things you hear when someone first

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Speaker 2: comes in to your office.

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Speaker 1: I often joke about it that most couples come in

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Speaker 1: saying that they have problems in communication. Now I understand

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Speaker 1: that it looks like a problem in communication because the

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Speaker 1: way couples interact with each other is mostly by talking,

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Speaker 1: although there's a lot of nonverbal talking through one's feet.

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Speaker 1: But where whatever's going on between them manifest is going

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Speaker 1: to be in their communication. So couples typically think, if

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Speaker 1: only we could communicate better, our problems would be solved.

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Speaker 1: So that's the number one thing that people come in with.

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Speaker 1: Then there are particular kind of we could say content

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Speaker 1: areas that couples come complaining about, depending on where they

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Speaker 1: are in their life cycle. Very common one is division

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Speaker 1: of labor, it's not fair who's doing what. More questions

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Speaker 1: around intimacy, whether it's sex or spending time together or connecting.

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Speaker 1: Then there are ways in which their early childhood manifests

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Speaker 1: in their couple's life. But I'd say those are like

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Speaker 1: the key areas.

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Speaker 2: So it sounded like when you were saying, people come

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Speaker 2: in and they think communications the issue. Yeah, the look

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Speaker 2: on your face was, that's not really the issue, right,

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Speaker 2: So what is the issue? Right?

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Speaker 1: Well, there are many issues, but the thing is when

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Speaker 1: you when you guide people into how to communicate better

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Speaker 1: and how to really speak and listen to each other

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Speaker 1: and get to the heart of the issue. Usually they're

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Speaker 1: real issues that are underlying the issues of communication, and

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Speaker 1: often people make communication difficult because it's hard for them

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Speaker 1: to touch the real issues, so they defensively create problems

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Speaker 1: in communication. So when you're asking what are the real issues?

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Speaker 1: At least from my perspective, I think if I had

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Speaker 1: to summarize it in the most succinct way, I would

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Speaker 1: say the real issue that couples face is that they're

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Speaker 1: building a relationship or living with another person who's different

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Speaker 1: from them, and that is really hard. It's very exciting.

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Speaker 1: It's a source of growth, it's a source of desire,

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Speaker 1: it's a source of lots of good things. But it's

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Speaker 1: also incredibly difficult and annoying. Whether it's like the small

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Speaker 1: habits of another person or or the deepest core of

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Speaker 1: who they are and their values and their politics. There

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Speaker 1: are many ways in which the otherness of your partner

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Speaker 1: infringes on you and puts you in all sorts of

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Speaker 1: like difficult positions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking back to it. I remember

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Speaker 2: when my wife and I when we were just dating

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Speaker 2: and when we lived together for a brief amount of time.

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Speaker 2: That was when I was like, oh, I think we

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Speaker 2: could be good together because it was it felt easy

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Speaker 2: to go to work, be in the same space. We

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Speaker 2: kind of had a good distribution of household responsibilities. We

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Speaker 2: felt like we had a flow. It's really interesting to

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Speaker 2: me because when I look earlier in my dating life

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Speaker 2: and when I speak to so many people myself, sometimes

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Speaker 2: you can be such good partners when your boyfriend and

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Speaker 2: girlfriend or whatever your makeup may be, but then when

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Speaker 2: you move in together, you're not as good roommates. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and it feels like that transition is where so much

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Speaker 2: of this is discovered.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that is probably the first round in which things

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Speaker 1: are discovered, like the living together. And you can think

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Speaker 1: of it as compatibility. Some people just have similar habits

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Speaker 1: or you know, they like the dishwasher loaded a particular

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Speaker 1: way similarly, or and it makes it easy. But if

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Speaker 1: you go kind of deeper under I think part of

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Speaker 1: it is how do you respond to otherness? How do

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Speaker 1: you respond to someone who's different from you in the

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Speaker 1: smallest way and in the biggest way. And for some

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Speaker 1: of us, differentness poses a lot of issues, a lot

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Speaker 1: of problems. It feels intrusive, It makes you question your

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Speaker 1: own beliefs, it's you immediately get into questioning who's right,

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Speaker 1: who's wrong, who's top, who's bottom. Otherness can trigger a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff, whatever the otherness is, And for some

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Speaker 1: people it's more easy going. It's easier to just accept

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Speaker 1: the fact that people have different habits. Part of it

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Speaker 1: is compatibility, and part of it is like, can you

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Speaker 1: really are you ready to tolerate another person and to

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Speaker 1: adjust to another person and change in response to letting

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Speaker 1: someone else into your life.

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Speaker 2: I'm really appreciating the language with it you're explaining this,

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Speaker 2: because I genuinely don't believe I've heard it that simply

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Speaker 2: before and that well. And I say that because I

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Speaker 2: think we often make it about do we have compatibility,

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Speaker 2: do we have chemistry? Do we have connection? And really,

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Speaker 2: you're so right that it's feeling othered or otherness that

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Speaker 2: really causes all of our conflict. And when Radi and

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Speaker 2: I first started living together, we found that we had

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Speaker 2: very a very small example, we had very different routines

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Speaker 2: in how we liked to host and entertain. So if

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Speaker 2: we had friends over, we both want to have dinner

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Speaker 2: with them, But then after having dinner, I want to

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Speaker 2: hang out on the couch. I want to talk to them.

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Speaker 2: I want to relax. I want to spend time with them.

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Speaker 2: Radi wants to get into the kitchen and clean while

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Speaker 2: everyone's there and then go to hanging And I want

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Speaker 2: to hang out with everyone, and then I want to

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Speaker 2: go and clean when everyone's left.

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Speaker 1: Totally get it.

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Speaker 2: And mine comes from how I was raised, So that's

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Speaker 2: what we did in my house, and hers comes from

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Speaker 2: how she was raised. Now, I don't think there's a

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Speaker 2: better or worse. I think it's a preference. But what

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Speaker 2: I found was that when I would hang out straight

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Speaker 2: after eating and I wouldn't clean up, there were times

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Speaker 2: when Radi would see that as me not valuing her responsibility,

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Speaker 2: shaking responsibility, or you expect me to do everything. And

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Speaker 2: that's not how I felt, But that's how it came across.

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Speaker 2: That's why what you're saying resonates with me so strongly,

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Speaker 2: because the otherness of activity also leads to the otherness

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Speaker 2: of emotion, and all of a sudden, now you're filling

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Speaker 2: in the gaps of that space of being others. So

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Speaker 2: to her it became I'm disrespected, I'm not valued, you're

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Speaker 2: shirking responsibility, you're lazy, whatever it may have been for me,

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Speaker 2: it became well, I'm just trying to hang out, what's

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Speaker 2: wrong with you? Why can't you just have fun? You know?

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Speaker 2: Why do you have to be so fixated on cleaning up?

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Speaker 2: Like why you whatever? It may be? Right?

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Speaker 1: So now perfect?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, can I of course borrow this from please my book? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Please? That's it's like a perfect example. And just the

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Speaker 1: way you said it also that that's exactly it. That

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Speaker 1: there's a space of difference and you don't understand why

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Speaker 1: you're different, and you immediately start building theories that are

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Speaker 1: basically meant to answer the question how am I right?

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Speaker 1: And what's wrong with you?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: Because difference we can't just it's very hard for us

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Speaker 1: to just let difference sit there and just say we're

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Speaker 1: just different, and how are we gonna move with this difference?

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Speaker 1: What's the best way to move with it? Immediately start

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Speaker 1: like involving I don't know what it is, it's like

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Speaker 1: our ego or something about who we are that's at

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Speaker 1: question with difference. And that's where a lot of the

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Speaker 1: trouble starts coming in, Like you build theories like she's

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Speaker 1: building a theory that you're like shirking responsibility or Oh,

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Speaker 1: here's another guy just wanting the woman in the kitchen,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, here is a wife that doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to have fun. She's just going to be like

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Speaker 1: nagging me to do this, that and the other. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we know the theories. It's very easy to kind of

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Speaker 1: inject theories in there. But part of what happens in

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Speaker 1: couple's work, and you don't have to do it through therapy,

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Speaker 1: but part of what happens is you start tracking the

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Speaker 1: automatic way that you assign all these scripts to your

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Speaker 1: partner to avoid just dealing with the discomfort of otherness.

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Speaker 1: I think if it's sometimes like a thorn, like a

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Speaker 1: thorn that gets stuck in you, that disrupts your way

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Speaker 1: of thinking about things, like suddenly there's another way of

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Speaker 1: doing things, and you're like, wait a minute, do I

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Speaker 1: have to think about how I'm doing things at all?

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Speaker 1: Do I have to question what I'm doing and how

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Speaker 1: am I going to respond to that provocation?

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Speaker 2: And what's the difference between Like I feel like for

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Speaker 2: a lot of people, they maybe in the beginning they'll

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Speaker 2: just fold and do what their partner wants because it's easier, right,

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Speaker 2: And then maybe many years later they'll be like I

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Speaker 2: changed for you, I did that for you, I did

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Speaker 2: all these things for you, but you didn't value me

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Speaker 2: and you know you haven't changed, or whatever it may be. Totally,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of different versions of that. That's one version.

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Speaker 2: What's the right balance between looking for the right solution

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Speaker 2: and looking for I'm not a fan of the word compromise.

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Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on the word compromise?

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Speaker 1: Could you say a little bit more just yeah, sure,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: I don't love so For example, for me, I don't

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Speaker 2: believe I think compromise is us both saying well, okay,

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Speaker 2: well i'll do a little bit of this for you

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Speaker 2: if you do a little bit of this for me,

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Speaker 2: Whereas to me, it's like, well, can we work together

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Speaker 2: to figure out what makes the most sense and what

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Speaker 2: is actually the most practical, best effective solution where everyone's happier,

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Speaker 2: And I don't think that means something. For example, with

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Speaker 2: this situation, we have now believed that it is nicer

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Speaker 2: to host as long as Radley has the peace of

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Speaker 2: mind that everything will be cleaned that evening. We've come

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Speaker 2: to a conclusion which I don't think is a compromise

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Speaker 2: for either of us. It's a feeling that we both

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Speaker 2: found a solution together. Yeah, and compromise, to me makes

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Speaker 2: me feel like I gave up something, or I lost

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Speaker 2: out on something, or she did, And I don't want

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Speaker 2: her to give up something for me that's important. If

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Speaker 2: she said to me, Jay, it is so important to

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Speaker 2: me that we clean up right away, I would value

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Speaker 2: that and I would do it. I don't want to

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Speaker 2: do it because I feel forced to her I have to.

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Speaker 2: That's my issue with it.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about how I work it out with couples

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Speaker 1: when first of all, couples need to abandoned the idea

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Speaker 1: that one of them is completely right and one of

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Speaker 1: them is wrong.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: You want to approach the difference with the idea that

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Speaker 1: you're equal partners, that you each have a valid point

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Speaker 1: of view, even if it's different. And that's actually not

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Speaker 1: an easy thing to get to.

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Speaker 2: It's so hard, so hard, right, I see that being

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Speaker 2: the biggest challenge for you.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And it would be interesting to think about, like

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Speaker 1: why is it's so hard for us? But it's very hard.

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Speaker 1: But once you approach a difference in terms of it

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Speaker 1: simply being two equal partners struggling with difference then you

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Speaker 1: want to create a space. And I agree with you

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Speaker 1: that to simply compromise is sometimes just a quick fix,

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Speaker 1: and it kind of it's like a band aid that

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Speaker 1: underneath it can breed resentments and you can eventually somehow

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Speaker 1: go back to the idea that it's not fair I

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Speaker 1: compromise more than you. But to do what you're suggesting doing,

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Speaker 1: which is to really put both minds to it and

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Speaker 1: arrive at a conclusion. To get it's actually really hard.

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Speaker 1: You have to overcome both a lot of your own

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Speaker 1: convictions selfish needs, and really work for the good of

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Speaker 1: the relationship of the total the total good. That's why

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Speaker 1: I often say that couples form between them like a

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Speaker 1: political system. It's like the first political system of how

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Speaker 1: do you resolve difference? Are you going to be like

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Speaker 1: autocratic or democratic in terms of how you resolve a difference?

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Speaker 1: That sometimes I go back to reminding people of how

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Speaker 1: when you have two kids playing and wanting to play

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Speaker 1: with the same toy, Like, how do you coach kids

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Speaker 1: on what to do in that case? Do you take turns?

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Speaker 1: Do you give both kids the same toy? Do you

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Speaker 1: just remove the kids from the situation and say, oh,

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Speaker 1: they can't play well together. Do you leave one kid

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Speaker 1: crying having to compromise in a way that was just

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Speaker 1: really depriving for them and they were not ready for

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Speaker 1: all this. To say that the solution that you're suggesting,

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Speaker 1: which is to really put your minds together and figure

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Speaker 1: out a solution that is good for everyone, is hard.

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Speaker 1: I do think it's the best one, but I think

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Speaker 1: it requires a certain kind of honesty and willing to

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Speaker 1: give up a certain kind of investment, selfish investment in

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Speaker 1: the thing that you believe in. You have to like

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Speaker 1: relax your convictions.

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Speaker 2: It made so much sense to me because I feel

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Speaker 2: like most issues are this, and most people are not

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Speaker 2: solving this. Yeah, I'm a lost trying to solve some

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Speaker 2: other puzzle. Ye. And I couldn't agree with you more

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Speaker 2: that whether I'm talking to a family member, a friend,

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Speaker 2: a coaching client, or I'm watching something on TV or

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Speaker 2: hearing from someone about something, this is the problem, yep.

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Speaker 2: And this is the root of it. That we don't

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Speaker 2: want to accept that someone else may be right and

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Speaker 2: we may be wrong, ye, That someone else may have

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Speaker 2: a better idea than ours and ours may be worse,

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Speaker 2: and that the way their parents did things might actually

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Speaker 2: supersede the way our parents did things, and we don't

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Speaker 2: like that because it makes us feel almost disloyal to

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Speaker 2: our own upbringing. There's like a feeling of I'm betraying

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Speaker 2: what my parents did, I'm betraying tradition. There's an ego

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Speaker 2: conflict thereof But this is my identity, this is who

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Speaker 2: I am, and by telling me there's another way, a

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Speaker 2: better way, you're almost making me feel like my identity

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Speaker 2: is becoming more and more insignificant day.

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Speaker 1: By day, and I'm losing something that grounds me. What's

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Speaker 1: going to happen to me if I don't have this

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Speaker 1: identity exactly? And the loyalty can be to parents, it

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Speaker 1: can be to a particular group that you're associated with.

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Speaker 1: It could be to your religion, and it can be

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Speaker 1: to an ideology or a belief system that you feel

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Speaker 1: like yourself kind of depends.

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Speaker 2: On how do you open up to the idea that

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Speaker 2: someone else's value may be helpful without devaluing yourself almost

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Speaker 2: how do you open up to the idea that someone

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Speaker 2: else and you can build something together without feeling like

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Speaker 2: you're losing and merging yourself? Because I think what's interesting

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Speaker 2: here is the person often with the better idea is

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Speaker 2: also not doing it to find a common solution. They

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Speaker 2: also just want you to go their way, and so

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Speaker 2: we're also not being led perfectly. If that's right.

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Speaker 1: You know, ideally you want to create conditions where it

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Speaker 1: stops being about who's right who's wrong, but again it's

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Speaker 1: for the good of everyone. Like the ideally you want

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Speaker 1: kind of the questions of the ego to kind of

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Speaker 1: drop to the background and to really get into the

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Speaker 1: state of mind where both participants feel acknowledged, safe, and

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Speaker 1: they don't have to worry about their identity or their

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Speaker 1: ego or their personal investment, and they have a feeling

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Speaker 1: that they're going to gain something for the good of

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Speaker 1: the couple or the family or the unit, that there's

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Speaker 1: something that exceeds them that will benefit from this. And

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Speaker 1: to get there, there are many ways to get there,

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Speaker 1: but I know what I try to do in my

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Speaker 1: practice is to create first of all, a sense of

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Speaker 1: you know what people call now in popular language like

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Speaker 1: a safe space, and what does that mean. It means

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Speaker 1: a space in which what matters to you in a

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Speaker 1: deep way is heard, is respected. You may not necessarily

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Speaker 1: get exactly your way, but you feel on a basic

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Speaker 1: human level that your dignity, the things you care about

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Speaker 1: that really matter to you are seen and respected, and

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Speaker 1: that whoever's negotiating with you will take that into account,

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Speaker 1: not just kind of you know, bulldoze over you. And

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Speaker 1: when people feel cared for in this way by the

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Speaker 1: therapist or eventually by their partner, they're willing to do

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Speaker 1: a lot. I think people were all mostly we have

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Speaker 1: like an incredibly generous creative spirit within us that if

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Speaker 1: we stop feeling threatened, we want to operate from there

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Speaker 1: for the better of everyone. And I think when you

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Speaker 1: get to a solution where one person feels, oh, I

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Speaker 1: got my way and the other one didn't, it never

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Speaker 1: ultimately feels good. It might feel good in the moment,

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Speaker 1: like you got a momentary win, but you're left with

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Speaker 1: this kind of churning, uncomfortable feeling that you took something

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Speaker 1: that you shouldn't have taken from someone.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the challenge that people experience is like,

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Speaker 2: let's say it's the holidays and I'm saying to you,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I know we're going to your families for Christmas.

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Speaker 2: I just want you to know that I really feel

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Speaker 2: uncomfortable around your parents because I feel like they're always,

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Speaker 2: you know, picking up my career, or they're always making

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Speaker 2: me feel a bit insecure about something like this, or

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Speaker 2: maybe they're somewhat downplaying some of my achievements or whatever.

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Speaker 2: I just want you to know that sometimes I feel triggered. Like,

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Speaker 2: let's say I said that to my partner. Yes, very

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Speaker 2: untrue for my life, but actually it's a very common

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Speaker 2: thing for us, and your partner doesn't have. What I

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Speaker 2: find today is people don't have the capability to validate

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Speaker 2: you without feeling like they're invalidating themselves. Yeah. So the

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Speaker 2: person responding to that goes, how can you say that

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Speaker 2: about my parents? They love you? I mean they love you,

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Speaker 2: Like what are you talking about? Like, yeah, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: they've got an amazing gift, Like it's a surprise, like

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Speaker 2: you don't even know, like you know, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: they were just asking about you yesterday. And you're like, no,

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Speaker 2: I get that. I'm not saying they're not loving, but

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Speaker 2: I just feel like I get really triggered because of

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Speaker 2: this this and they're like, look, you're just crazy, Like

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Speaker 2: just you know, don't worry about it, Like just just

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Speaker 2: it's not a big deal, And it's not that that

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Speaker 2: person is met. Your partner's not being mean, but they

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Speaker 2: don't realize because they're so scared, or they'll say something

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Speaker 2: to you like I can't believe you can say that

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Speaker 2: about my parents. My parents are loving, wonderful people, and

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Speaker 2: now you feel really hurt and pushed away. Yeah, because

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Speaker 2: you're like, well wait a minute. So I find that

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Speaker 2: often when people share how they actually feel, the person

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Speaker 2: on the receiving side doesn't know how to receive that

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Speaker 2: totally because they're scared that if they accept that, then

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Speaker 2: then they have to accept that their parents are the

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Speaker 2: worst people on the planet or whatever else comes with

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Speaker 2: that criticism. How do we kind of wrap ahead around.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're capturing something very significant. I think, first of all,

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Speaker 1: just to understand why is that kind of moment so

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Speaker 1: difficult before even trying to think of the solution. I

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Speaker 1: think one of the things it brings up for people,

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Speaker 1: Let's say, to go with the example you're raising, it

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Speaker 1: brings up both conflicting loyalties what you were saying earlier,

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Speaker 1: loyalty to your family of origin, loyalty to your culture,

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Speaker 1: loyalty to yourself, your sense of goodness versus your loyalty

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Speaker 1: to taking care of your partner and caring about their feelings.

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Speaker 1: That's a real inner conflict that that kind of predicament

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Speaker 1: puts the receiving partner in. They're conflicted between these loyalties.

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Speaker 1: Just to underline something here, To be in a state

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Speaker 1: of inner conflict is difficult. It's difficult for all of us.

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Speaker 1: We like simple solutions. We like right or wrong, we

396
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Speaker 1: like good or bad. We don't like I love my parents,

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Speaker 1: They're awesome, They've taken such good care of me, but

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Speaker 1: they're also hurting my partner. It's very uncomfortable for all

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Speaker 1: of us to be an inner conflict. So to understand

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Speaker 1: that putting your partner in that position is already asking

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Speaker 1: them to sit in a difficult position for themselves. So

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Speaker 1: what to do in that case? I think what I

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Speaker 1: do when I work with couples when they're in that

404
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 1: kind of predicament is I help both of them understand

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Speaker 1: the difficulties they're going through in having the conversation. Not

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Speaker 1: the solution, but why is the conversation difficult. Let's say

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Speaker 1: the receiving partner whose parents are criticized, I might slow

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Speaker 1: them down and first of all, ask them to talk

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Speaker 1: about what kind of position that puts them in, like

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Speaker 1: to try to describe the inner conflict that puts them in,

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Speaker 1: like their love for their parents. And I ask the

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Speaker 1: partner to understand that they're asking their partner to position

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Speaker 1: themselves away from their parents, and that's a hard thing

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Speaker 1: to do. And I'm asking the receiving partner to understand

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Speaker 1: that the person who's let's say, criticizing their parents or

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Speaker 1: talking about being triggered, is also a complex person who's

417
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Speaker 1: talking about having multiple kinds of feelings. They can both

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Speaker 1: appreciate the parents, appreciate their connection to the parents, and

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Speaker 1: have another kind of feeling. We're talking about kind of

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Speaker 1: expanding the spectrum of what people can hear and feel,

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Speaker 1: hear from each other, feel in themselves, and calm down

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Speaker 1: about it. It's okay to have conflicting, multiple feelings and

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Speaker 1: nothing has to be like an immediate resolution. Okay, that

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Speaker 1: means I'm never coming to Thanksgiving with your parents or

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be a jerk and not talk to

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Speaker 1: your father. It's okay to have all these feelings and

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Speaker 1: sit and eat the turkey.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of I feel like a lot of

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Speaker 2: men feel caught in between their mom and their wife

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Speaker 2: if they're in an absolutely heterosexual relationship, Like, yeah, there's

431
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Speaker 2: this conflict of oh my gosh, I've got to choose

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Speaker 2: between my mom and my wife, yeah, or my girlfriend

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Speaker 2: or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Which is true?

435
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 2: Which is true, It's true.

436
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 1: You have to make a tr transition when you get

437
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: involved with a significant other, you're making a transition. I mean,

438
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: I love the fact that you brought up the idea

439
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: of loyalties, which is so powerful for all of us.

440
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: Loyalties to family, loyalties to ideas. There is an element

441
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: of making a transition from belonging to one group to

442
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: belonging to a new family or new group, and that

443
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: is hard. It's hard for the person, and it's hard

444
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: for the mother, and it's hard for everyone.

445
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that because I think culturally and different

446
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 2: cultures have different expectations too. So for example, in the

447
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 2: Indian culture, yeah, it's generally seen that the woman becomes

448
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,479
Speaker 2: a part of the man's family. Now that's a very

449
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 2: traditional idea. I was very fortunate to grow up in

450
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 2: a home that was far more broad minded than that.

451
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 2: And we don't, I don't subscribe to what generation, are you,

452
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 2: I'm like first generation in first generation in England. Yeah,

453
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: first generation in England. I definitely don't subscrip to that idea.

454
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 2: To me, it's dehumanizing of the individual who kind of

455
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 2: becomes like, oh you.

456
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: Were You're like an object.

457
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like an object that's not been placed over. Now.

458
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 2: Do I believe that we're a part of each other's families,

459
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: of course, but I think for me it was very

460
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 2: clear that we were now building something together. Yeah, and

461
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 2: that became the priority. And the buildings that we both

462
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 2: came from were homes that we could always visit and

463
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,719
Speaker 2: be a part of, but we had to be very

464
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 2: careful in curating the home. And I would explain this

465
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: the way like couples to think about it, because I

466
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 2: know a lot of people who when I say this

467
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 2: to them, they get robbed the wrong way because they're like,

468
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 2: what about culture, what about tradition? What about my family values?

469
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 2: Going back to loyalty? And I like people to think

470
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 2: about it like designing a home. And we were talking

471
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 2: about that earlier. So you grew up in a certain

472
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 2: home and your partner grew up in a certain home,

473
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 2: and I'm guessing when you move into a home or

474
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: you've rent an apartment, or whatever it is that you

475
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 2: both decide to do together, you design it to your

476
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: tastes together. It would be very rare for you to

477
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 2: say I want this to look exactly like my mom's home,

478
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 2: and be very rare for that person to say, I

479
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 2: want this to look exactly like my dad's home. Chances

480
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 2: are you're both going to come together and you maybe

481
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 2: one of the partners takes the lead because the other

482
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 2: person doesn't have much interest or talent or skill, and

483
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 2: you end up creating this space. But the point was

484
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 2: you knew you were creating something together, right, And so

485
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 2: I like to think about it like that, where it's like, Okay,

486
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 2: well we're designing something together, and that doesn't mean we

487
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: don't take influence and inspiration from the homes we came from,

488
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: but we're not trying to mirror those homes perfectly, no

489
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 2: matter how amazing they were. How do we open up

490
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 2: our minds to that? Because I think so many people

491
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 2: just go, well, no, this is how it's done, and

492
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 2: this is how it's meant to be.

493
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 1: People come into relationships, probably with your idea that they're

494
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 1: going to create something together. And that's their kind of

495
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: conscious mind. But then as the relationship starts to kind

496
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: of take shape, all sorts of unconscious loyalties so to

497
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: creep in, and then and might believe that they're creating

498
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: this new home, but they suddenly feel like to use

499
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: it metaphorically, but the foyer has to look a certain

500
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: way and they don't even know why, but it's coming

501
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: from their family of origin a certain kind of It

502
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: makes me think also of queer couples that were raised

503
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 1: by straight parents. They have to really rebrand everything and

504
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 1: recreate They can't rely on the old model, but they

505
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: don't have another model to rely on yet, So it

506
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: creates like all these like confusions like weight, are we

507
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: trying to build kind of a straight like relationship or

508
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: are we creating something totally new? And it's hard to

509
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: create new. I mean, it's there's something that's easy when

510
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: you rely on like an old model that was handed

511
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: down to you, and you don't have to like reinvent things,

512
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: and you don't have to think and wonder what's right,

513
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: what's wrong. You're just kind of repeating something that was done. Yeah,

514
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: it comes up again around questions of raising children. That's

515
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: like then it starts all over again, like what's the

516
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: right way to raise children? And you know, I don't

517
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: know sleep training or.

518
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is just yeah, And then both your parents

519
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: have ideas and how you should raise the kids too,

520
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 2: and now you're fighting about what your parents think. Yeah,

521
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,719
Speaker 2: is the right way to raise kids? Yeah, Like, well,

522
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 2: my mom raised me and she did a great job.

523
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 2: And then well my mom raised me and she did

524
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 2: a great job. Right, and now it's like, my mom's

525
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: better than your mom, and it's but' that is what

526
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: people are That's all the conversations people are having. Yeah, right,

527
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 2: that's what you're hearing too.

528
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm hearing that a lot. When people have the

529
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: experience of letting go of the right wrong either or

530
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: when they work through problems in a different way, they

531
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: it does get internalized and people get the hang of

532
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: it and the good feeling of oh my god, it's

533
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: not my ego doesn't have to be at stake with

534
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: every discussion or right wrong is not the only way

535
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: to think about things. There are like so vast other

536
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: ways to think about difference, and when you get into

537
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,479
Speaker 1: the groove of that, the world opens up.

538
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think we need to give people a vocabulary

539
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: for that. Yeah, and it's really hard when we've lived

540
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: in a very logical, rational world where you learned math

541
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 2: and there was something there was a right answer and

542
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: there was a wrong answer.

543
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: Although even in math it's not true there's any ways

544
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: to get to a solution.

545
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,239
Speaker 2: But the way we were taught in school, yes, there

546
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 2: was always a right and wrong answers. So we don't

547
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 2: really have the ability. And I keep coming to art

548
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 2: as a way of talking about it. It's like art

549
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: just doesn't have a lot of right and wrong. Yeah,

550
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 2: it's just taste. Yeah, And taste is not good or bad.

551
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 2: It's just taste. It's just like you could put a

552
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 2: color that doesn't make sense next to another color and

553
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 2: it could work and it could not work, but you're

554
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 2: not looking at it in a binary way. You have

555
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 2: a reason for why it's placed there. Yeah. And I

556
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: think we've in trying to get to right and wrong,

557
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 2: we've lost our reasoning power. Yeah, Like why am I

558
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 2: doing this? Why are we doing this? How are we behaving? Yeah?

559
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: But first, here's a quick word from the brands that

560
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 2: support the show. All right, thank you to our sponsors.

561
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: Now let's dive back in how quickly do you know

562
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 2: when you meet someone whether they're going to make it.

563
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: Or not a couple, Yeah, you know, I don't make

564
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: quick judgments. I really refrain from that because I think

565
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: humans to me, I mean, I've been working as a

566
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: psychologist and analyst for many years, but humans to me remain,

567
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: in principle, remain a certain kind of mystery. There's something

568
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: about humans that is like ever surprising to me. And

569
00:31:55,560 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: when a couple walks in, they might look like they

570
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: have like the most intense kind of hair raising problems.

571
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: My general approach is I want the mystery of why

572
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: they're together and what they're trying to have with each

573
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: other reveal itself, and I want to line up with

574
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: that part of them. So I try really trying not

575
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: to rush to any kind of judgment. Oh, these guys

576
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: are never going to make it. I mean, there are

577
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: certain things that, let's say, bother me when with couples.

578
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: I mean, when they're very committed to a certain stance

579
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: of let's say, contempt or put downs or if you want,

580
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: you can call it abuse, although abuse is a complicated

581
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: word nowadays, but there's a certain kind of pleasure in

582
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: sadism that some couples develop that they get hooked on

583
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: a certain kind of sato mesochistic dynamic that I'm not into.

584
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: And if I can't convince a couple, most couples want

585
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: to get out of that. They don't enjoy it. I'm

586
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: not talking about kink. I'm talking about like a pernicious

587
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: kind of mutually destructive way of engaging. And if I

588
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: can't convince a couple to move out of that mode,

589
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: if there's something that is too tempting for them, then

590
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: either I think you guys should just break up and

591
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: stop torturing each other, or I'm just not the right

592
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: person for you. I don't want to be in the

593
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: presence of that. But that mostly people are not into that.

594
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,959
Speaker 1: They might get stuck in that kind of pattern, then

595
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: they look for me to help them. But most people

596
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: want to get out of that, and they go for

597
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: the honey, you know, they go for the good if

598
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: you just help them figure out.

599
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: How If a couple stuck in the blame game, like lord,

600
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 2: this is only your fault, and then the other person's like, well,

601
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: I've been trying my best, you know, but it's really

602
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: what you've been doing. How do you start rewiring that conversation.

603
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 2: What does it take? What are the steps to getting

604
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: out of the blame game which seems to be such

605
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: a commonplace.

606
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: Right, it's big, There's no there's no one way because

607
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: people get stuck in that blame game, which is pernicious

608
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 1: for different reasons. My job and when people are in

609
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 1: that kind of pattern is to convince each of them

610
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: to kind of release the grip they have, Like be

611
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 1: a little less convinced and sure about their own narrative.

612
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: Just get a little less stubborn about your narrative and

613
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 1: start getting curious about other ways to see things, and

614
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: then start getting curious about yourself rather than hyper focus

615
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: on your partner and put everything outside, Like try to

616
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: pull back from that hyper focus and start asking yourself questions,

617
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: why does this thing bother me so much? What is

618
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: the thing that is like making me crazy? Like if

619
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: we went back to like the example of like the

620
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: dinner parties, Like why is it so important to clean

621
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,760
Speaker 1: right after? What's the fear if the if the dishes

622
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: sit there for another two hours, what's the issue? Like

623
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: look back at yourself, don't focus on your partner. What's

624
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: he doing not doing? What's getting stirred up in you,

625
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: and usually you find really interesting things there, Like when

626
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: people are really willing to like pull away from their

627
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: partner and look into themselves, they're like, oh, this is

628
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: really interesting. This is kind of reminding me of blah

629
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 1: blah blah. And suddenly it's less about the partner and

630
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: there's a whole world to discover about yourself, and the

631
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: whole intensity of blame goes down, and then people get

632
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: curious about each other, you know, and you're going to

633
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: be like, oh, yeah, I noticed that your mom is

634
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: like so fastidious and she's so afraid of germs and

635
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: what happened to her when she was a kid, And

636
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: like a whole world opens and the whole blame thing

637
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: becomes less interesting.

638
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember doing that for myself and realizing I

639
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: thought I'd been tolerant on my partner, and then realize

640
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 2: my wife's actually been so tolerant of me. Like you

641
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 2: have that kind of one to eighty degree view where

642
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: you just got to wait a minute. I thought I

643
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 2: was the one like doing everything. Yeah, but that's because

644
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: I never kept score on her scorecard. Yeah right. It

645
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 2: was very easy for you to always look at things

646
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: through your lens totally. You can always count the amount

647
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 2: of overtime hours you did. Yes, it's the same at work.

648
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: You can always count the amount of effort you've put in,

649
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 2: but you never see anyone else's effort. You never see

650
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,479
Speaker 2: And we also missed the like when our partner lets

651
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 2: us off with bad behavior or a bad mood, you

652
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: don't take note of that. No, But then when your partner,

653
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 2: when you you know, react to your partner's bad mood

654
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: or whatever, you're like, oh my god, look I held

655
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: back and yeah, I wis why aren't doing that for me? Yeah?

656
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 2: Why are you doing that for me? But when.

657
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: You're describing this change in you, the thing that is

658
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: interesting to me and I often try to bring couple's

659
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: attention to that, is I would assume that when you

660
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 1: had that change, it actually felt really good.

661
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 2: Oh for sure. Right.

662
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: People are so afraid that they're going to lose something,

663
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,240
Speaker 1: but they gain something when they go through that change.

664
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 1: That's what I was talking about earlier, Like the world

665
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: opens and good feelings come in, like oh, we're both

666
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 1: in it together, or we're not like oh she's bad,

667
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: I'm good, and like she's to blame and it's suddenly like, oh,

668
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: we're both human together, we're both flawed, we're both awesome.

669
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 2: What happens when objectively someone is being genuinely taken advantage of.

670
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 2: So it's like they're doing all the chores, they're contributing

671
00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 2: fifty percent financially. Yeah, their feelings are not heard or seen. Yeah,

672
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: they're never validated. The person does actually have an expectation

673
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: that you're meant to do all this. This is who

674
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 2: you are, this is your role in life. Yeah, how

675
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 2: does someone think through that when they still feel the

676
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:13,720
Speaker 2: person's a good person.

677
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: And first of all, I have to say it's more

678
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: rare than you'd think.

679
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 2: It's interesting.

680
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sometimes looks like that. Like one person could

681
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: be like you know, like you're saying, doing all the

682
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: work and the other person is like mooching off them.

683
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 1: But when you look at the relationship, often what you

684
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 1: find is that they're contributing in some other very subtle way.

685
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: It could be not something you can really put your

686
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: finger on, but they're like the let's say they're loyal

687
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: to the couplehood. They're holding like the the whatever that

688
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 1: thing of the boat is called the keel of the boat.

689
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: They're like the most romantic and holding on to the

690
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,760
Speaker 1: deepest idea of what the couple is despite all the fighting.

691
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: Or they might be.

692
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 1: Contributing in ways that are hard to account for, and

693
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: it's important to unearth that and give each person a

694
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: sense of what their contribution really is. Some of the

695
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 1: work that I have to do with couples is make

696
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: people aware and accountable for where they are being selfish,

697
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: because we all have an inclination to, as you said earlier,

698
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: to only see our own work and only see our

699
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: own point of view, and we're selfish, and we're not

700
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 1: even selfish, we're self centered. We've got, like you know,

701
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: the our perceptive field and we don't really see the other.

702
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 1: And working through that and getting to a more humble

703
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: place where you understand that you've been more selfish and

704
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: than in certain ways you are exploiting your partner. It's

705
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: an important piece of the work I have to go

706
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: about it. It's hard for all of us to acknowledge that,

707
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 1: so I have to go about it gingerly and sensitively

708
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: with people and give a lot of reinforcement for being

709
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: willing to take on that less pretty part of ourselves.

710
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 1: But ultimately, like you were, saying earlier. It's a gratifying process.

711
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: That's why it sounds almost like Pollyannish or Cornea, especially nowadays.

712
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: But I do believe in the goodness of people. We

713
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: ultimately want what's good for our partner.

714
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:40,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just that we want what's good for our partner,

715
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 2: but maybe we don't know what's good for them. Yeah, right,

716
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 2: And we often think we know what's good for our

717
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 2: partner or right for our partner, and that's sometimes our

718
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 2: greatest mistake, Yeah, because we're not really listening to them

719
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:00,959
Speaker 2: or taking in from them what they're saying, right, and feeling.

720
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 1: We're self centered, we're narcissistic in many ways. There's a

721
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: way in which our worldview is limited by being, you know,

722
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 1: the way, especially the way we're raised. I actually wonder

723
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: what you'd think about this, because I think it's it's

724
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: very different in Western versus other cultures, but we're raised

725
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: with such a focus on the self. I mean, there's

726
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: a certain kind of narcissism built into our culture that

727
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: makes it harder for us to be in deep relationships.

728
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 2: Do you have thoughts on this, Yeah, definitely, Yeah, I

729
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 2: feel that to me, relationships have to be about growth

730
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:45,280
Speaker 2: and service, and I think we think that they're about

731
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 2: pleasure and ease. Yeah, and self and self, And that's

732
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 2: my pleasure. Pleasures always the self is always linked to

733
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 2: pleasure and ease and comfort. And it's funny because growth

734
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 2: and service are the exact opposite. So earth is the

735
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 2: opposite of ease and comfort, and service is the opposite

736
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 2: of self centeredness. I've thought about it so often. I've

737
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 2: grown so much more. And what I mean grown, I

738
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 2: mean like challenged to grow by being in a relationship

739
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 2: with my wife in a healthy way. Then I have

740
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,439
Speaker 2: just had fun. So we have lots of fun. Things great,

741
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 2: But I've become a better human because of this relationship

742
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,439
Speaker 2: on so many levels. I've become more self aware. I've

743
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 2: become less egotistical, I've become more conscious of my flaws,

744
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 2: and it's happened all in a less judgmental way. And

745
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 2: I think that's the part that I think people get wrong,

746
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 2: is that we say this is the person that we

747
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 2: want to love forever, but they end up becoming the

748
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 2: person we judge forever, and they become the person that

749
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 2: we criticize forever. And they've become the person that we

750
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 2: complain about forever, and the person you said you wanted

751
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 2: to love forever becomes the person who actually gets the

752
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 2: least loving part of you. And so when I say

753
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 2: grow both and service, I don't mean subservience when I

754
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 2: say service, and I don't mean judgment when I say growth,

755
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: because I think a lot of people think, oh, well,

756
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 2: if I'm going to point out all my partner's flaws

757
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 2: so that they can grow, and I look, I'm helping them,

758
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, no, that does you know Raley's

759
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 2: never done that to me. And I think that's one

760
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: of the reasons why we have a healthy relationship because

761
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 2: we both don't do that. We both feel like we're

762
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 2: guiding and coaching each other on things we both opt

763
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 2: in and say we want to work on.

764
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: What would you say if you had to characterize each

765
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: of your basic stances towards each other, how would you

766
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: describe it?

767
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 2: Oh, that's interesting. I don't know if I've even had

768
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,399
Speaker 2: the vocabulary for that. It's a great question. I would say,

769
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 2: I am completely in awe of my wife. I love her.

770
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 2: I find it to be the most adorable, wonderful human being.

771
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 2: I could like, look at you know, a video or

772
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 2: a picture of it, and I just we've been together

773
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 2: for eleven years and I'll just feel this like overarching

774
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 2: feeling of love towards her, And that's her stance. I

775
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 2: would have to ask her for this question. I think.

776
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:08,959
Speaker 2: I think if she was answering this in a question

777
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 2: to you or when I wasn't in the room, I

778
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 2: think she'd say that she has a deep sense of respect.

779
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 2: And I don't want to use the word adoration of context,

780
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 2: but like there's a if if she's sharing how she

781
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 2: feels with me in private or in a in a

782
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 2: special moment, or through a friend who said something to me,

783
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 2: it would be that I think she just she trusts

784
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 2: me deeply. She has a very positive feeling towards me

785
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,240
Speaker 2: as a human, let alone just as a partner.

786
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing and I don't yeah, and.

787
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 2: You know sometimes I have to get that out of Yeah, but.

788
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: That but that's what you're describing, what you're It's like

789
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: the space that you're creating for each other right to

790
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 1: live in that kind of basic stance, Like when you

791
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: were asking earlier, like what what are couples that will

792
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: not make it? I mean, that's that's what you want,

793
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: you want the couple to create that kind of space

794
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 1: between them to live in that you're creating the world

795
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:13,720
Speaker 1: in which you're living.

796
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 2: How do you encourage them to do that when they're

797
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 2: saying to you, you know, but when I look in

798
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 2: my partner, he's like, I know he's a good guy

799
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 2: at hat. I know, I know he's I know he

800
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 2: means well, but he just you know, all he does

801
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 2: is watch football all weekend, and like he always forgets

802
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 2: my birthday, and you know, it's just like it's always

803
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 2: about like spending time with his family, and like, you know,

804
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 2: I don't even think even he never wants to talk

805
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 2: about his feelings. Like, you know, if that's what you're hearing,

806
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 2: it's very different I do here, I do exactly. How

807
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,399
Speaker 2: do you encourage them to heal that well?

808
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 1: Hopefully, you know, to have that kind of stance that

809
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: you describe so beautifully, like that you each kind of

810
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: provide for each other. First of all, you have to

811
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: have that capacity inside you, right, meaning it speaks to

812
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: some way that you come into the relationship with a

813
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: capacity to love, right, like a capacity to experience those

814
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 1: kind of feelings towards another person.

815
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 2: And then.

816
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: Which is great, and I believe most of us have that.

817
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: I mean, most of us have enough good inside us

818
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: that we have that. It's just now, how do you

819
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: create the conditions where that is the thing that can

820
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 1: come out? And couples come into treatment Basically I often

821
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 1: joke about the fact that couples come in basically saying doctor,

822
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: can you change my partner? That's like, they won't say it,

823
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: but that's really why couples come into my office. Can

824
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: you please change my partner? Everything will be okay if

825
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 1: you just change her. But when you get people less

826
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,320
Speaker 1: invested in what we were saying earlier, like the blame, blame, blame,

827
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: and he did this, she did that, and get them

828
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 1: back into this feeling of awe about another person, this

829
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: feeling like but actually, look at them. They're just so

830
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: wonderful in some elemental way, in some way that I

831
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: know I know their goodness. Remember that feeling, like, approach

832
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: them from that place. You're creating the conditions for that

833
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: person to thrive. Right when when your wife looks at

834
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: you with adoration, that's when your best self will come out.

835
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: When your wife looks at you like ugh, st up again,

836
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 1: for sure, you're just like I don't care anymore. I'm

837
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 1: going to go play video games, Like who needs that?

838
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 2: Right?

839
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,280
Speaker 1: So you're by the way you're looking at your partner,

840
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: you're inviting certain parts of themselves out, and I remind

841
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 1: people of that. We respond to each other, we respond

842
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 1: to the gay, to the music we're sending each other,

843
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,879
Speaker 1: and it invites different parts of us out.

844
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 2: What about when someone feels I've given them too many chances,

845
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 2: I've given them that lens for too long and they're

846
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 2: just not shifting. But they've not done anything terrible where

847
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 2: I need to leave them, but they're also not making

848
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 2: any progress on this path. Then I kept looking at

849
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 2: them with a loving lens, with the compassionate lens, but

850
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 2: I just keep running out of patience.

851
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: In that case, I would need to hear from the

852
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 1: partner what's going on? I mean some people, I mean

853
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: it's the partner depressed. I don't know what's going on there.

854
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: Like if really a lot is on is being offered

855
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 1: and the partner can't pick up on those nutrients, what's

856
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 1: going on? Are maybe they're going through something. Maybe there's

857
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 1: something completely different going on on their end, some kind

858
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: of grudge or something that they haven't had a chance

859
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 1: to write to really articulate. I mean, that would be

860
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 1: interesting for me if that happens. That's not the typical

861
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: thing that happens between people interesting. I mean typically if

862
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: you put good out, good will come back.

863
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 2: And I like that idea of when you look at

864
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,919
Speaker 2: your partner in a certain way, it's what they feel

865
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 2: and it's what you feel. And I think it goes

866
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: back to that human need we all have as wanting

867
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 2: someone to believe in us. Yeah, there's such a feeling,

868
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 2: like I believe everyone has that at the core, of course,

869
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 2: like everyone, but there's very few people who believe in you,

870
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 2: or at least you make you feel that way.

871
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it starts obviously, you know, you know, I'm a psychoanalyst.

872
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: I'm eventually gonna go back to childhood. But it starts

873
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: with the way whoever raised you looked at you, Like,

874
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 1: what was the you know, it doesn't have to be

875
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,320
Speaker 1: the mother, but what was the look in your mother's

876
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 1: eye when she saw you. Did the mother's eyes ultimately

877
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,839
Speaker 1: sparkle and like, oh my baby? Or did the mother

878
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:04,320
Speaker 1: always say you're always disappointing? Right, There's like this basic

879
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 1: way in which we're invited into the world or not

880
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 1: that stays with us, and that's a powerful kind of

881
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: early platform from which we operate.

882
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 2: What's the first hard question you should ask yourself in

883
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 2: a relationship?

884
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 1: I would say, maybe, am I ready to let someone

885
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 1: else in with their otherness, with the challenge to my narcissism?

886
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 1: Am I ready for that? This is sort of following

887
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:51,320
Speaker 1: everything we've been saying.

888
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 2: That's a great question. Can I give yeah? Can I

889
00:50:55,400 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 2: give yeah? Yeah? And can I hold space for someone

890
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 2: else to have to go through their transformation? Yeah? Because

891
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 2: chances are they're not going to come fully formed right

892
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 2: And even if they're perfect on my wedding day or

893
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 2: right now, chances are they're going to go through stuff. Yeah.

894
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 2: And being honest with myself because I think sometimes we

895
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 2: feel guilty. I know a lot of people who say

896
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 2: to me, Jay, I would have stayed with him, Like

897
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 2: there's someone that they're dating, they're not married, they're not

898
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 2: in a committed relationship. They're like, I would have stayed

899
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 2: with them, But I don't think I can for what

900
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 2: he has to go through and grow through. Wow, you know,

901
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 2: he's not ambitious. He needs to figure out his career

902
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 2: he's struggling with his mental health. Like, I don't know

903
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 2: if I want to be the person to go through it.

904
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: With him, right, Although I would also say in that

905
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: case you're ready, you're not ready. And no one wants

906
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 1: to be in a relationship where their partner is just

907
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: waiting for them to change for the relationship to really start.

908
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: You want to feel like your relationship is your home,

909
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 1: not the future home you're going to have if you change. Yeah,

910
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,399
Speaker 1: there's a certain level of acceptance that has to happen.

911
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 1: Of course, we want to change and get better and

912
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: grow with each other, but you can't really be in

913
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 1: a conditional relationship. I'm going to love you when you change.

914
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to be generous with you when you change.

915
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 2: That's not the real that is what people want.

916
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: That's that's not going to work.

917
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 2: I literally feel like we find someone that we find

918
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 2: attractive and that we enjoy our time with, and then

919
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 2: we want to change everything else about them. True, Like,

920
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:41,919
Speaker 2: that's literally what we're looking for, because you meet people

921
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 2: who like they'll find the person who actually has everything

922
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 2: set up for the future, but we're not attracted to

923
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 2: them and we don't like hanging out with them. And

924
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 2: so we're like, oh, I can't be with you obviously,

925
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 2: But then we the opposite, We're like, oh, yeah, you're

926
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 2: my person. I'm attracted to you. We love hanging out

927
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,320
Speaker 2: and having drinks, and we have good banter and we

928
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 2: can you know, we can spa verbally. Yeah, and you

929
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 2: must be the perfect person for me, even though I

930
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 2: don't like anything about your actual life, well, like you're

931
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:10,879
Speaker 2: not ambitious, you don't have a good career, you don't

932
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 2: make it up, like all the stuff that we think

933
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:13,479
Speaker 2: is important, right.

934
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: I would probably frame it differently, please. I would say,

935
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: the person that you really kind of get hooked onto

936
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 1: and feel like you are the person I want to

937
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 1: be with probably has in them components of things that

938
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 1: are really important for you to revisit and work on

939
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: that are not easy.

940
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 2: But you don't know that.

941
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 1: You don't know that. You're just in your gut you're

942
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: terribly attracted to that person. And no matter all the

943
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: other good partners that seem to have all the good

944
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: qualities are not sticking. And then that one partner, that

945
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 1: one person you keep going back to because there's something there.

946
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: Then the preoccupation with wanting to check change that partner

947
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 1: is typically some way that you're working through something deep

948
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:09,839
Speaker 1: within yourself, because you know, ultimately, I mean, even when

949
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 1: people talk about ambition or it's like it's not about that,

950
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:15,840
Speaker 1: Like why do you need your partner to be so ambitious?

951
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: You go be ambitious if you want ambition. It's usually

952
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 1: you're working through something. There was a couple on the

953
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: show that were a great example of that, where the

954
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: woman started off with like really intense complaints about her

955
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: husband that he's not ambitious, and ultimately we learned that

956
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:41,359
Speaker 1: a lot of it had to do with like her

957
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 1: mom and father, like a repeat of some kind of

958
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 1: old story that never got resolved between her parents, and

959
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: she was totally working it out through her husband. And

960
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 1: once she got focused on the parents and on her

961
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 1: early history, she was suddenly back to like the best

962
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: friendship in the world with her husband. Were just like

963
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 1: so adorable together. You know, it's often something else that

964
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: creates this kind of you got to change.

965
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 2: For me, Yeah, yeah, because it reminds us of something

966
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:12,320
Speaker 2: from me.

967
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 1: It reminds us of something that we haven't resolved, or

968
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 1: that your parents haven't resolved, or it could be like

969
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if we want to get

970
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 1: into that. But it could be like something like politically

971
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: that wasn't resolved. I'll just say in general, that couldn't

972
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,799
Speaker 1: resolve a certain issue of passports between them that had

973
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 1: to do with one of them being Palestinian and like

974
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 1: not having like statehood and would fight with their partner

975
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:42,800
Speaker 1: about passports. But it had nothing to do with the partner.

976
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: It didn't even have to do with their own families.

977
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 1: It had to do with Palestinian identity. All sorts of

978
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:53,800
Speaker 1: things make their way into what seems like an issue

979
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:56,840
Speaker 1: between the partners that come from really other places.

980
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 2: Yeah.

981
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, so when people start like blaming their partner for stuff,

982
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 1: for me, it's like a riddle, Yeah, what is this

983
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:05,760
Speaker 1: really about?

984
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 2: And those are the kind of questions that if we

985
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:12,839
Speaker 2: reflect on it ourselves too, it can help us so much.

986
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 2: I mean, are you do you find that are women

987
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:17,840
Speaker 2: more prone to be the fixes?

988
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:21,759
Speaker 1: First of all, I think things are changing as far

989
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 1: as genders, so it's a little hard to make real

990
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:30,479
Speaker 1: statements about like women and men. But if I had

991
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 1: to kind of say something general, I'd say women are

992
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 1: they're raised to be more kind of tuned into the

993
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 1: ins and out of a relationship and kind of take

994
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 1: care of the relationship in a certain way in terms

995
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 1: of like talking more bringing feelings to the table, and

996
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 1: men are more tuned into like the frame around their

997
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: relationship and a certain kind of loyalty. Over time, they

998
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 1: add a certain rudder to the relationship. So it's different

999
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: ways of tending to the relationship. But even that it

1000
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 1: changes a lot, And of course it then looks very

1001
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 1: different in queer relationships. But that's kind of my crue

1002
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 1: generalization about women and men.

1003
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 2: How have you helped men who struggle to open up

1004
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 2: about their emotions open up? Because I think sometimes there's

1005
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 2: a lot of pressure for men to show up emotionally,

1006
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 2: but he may never have had that training or that

1007
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 2: vocabulary or that safe space his whole life.

1008
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: Well, he probably has anti training, right men are I

1009
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 1: mean again, it's different nowadays, but typically men are raised

1010
00:57:55,080 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: to disavow their feelings, focus on power protection, I mean

1011
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: important functions, not to minimize that there's a lot of

1012
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 1: value in those, but they're raised to turn away from

1013
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 1: their feelings. And what I do in my work with

1014
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 1: men is I, in a way teach them to pay

1015
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 1: attention to small hints about their emotional world, and they're

1016
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: always their stomach ache, the tightness in the chest, a

1017
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 1: habit that is not good for them. And to follow

1018
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: those beginning hints and clues and try to get curious

1019
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 1: about what else can they tell me about their emotions,

1020
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 1: And when they start getting in touch with feelings, it's

1021
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 1: usually it's very gratifying. It's good to get in touch

1022
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 1: with your feelings. It feels good, you feel more round it,

1023
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: your world gets richer, and your relationships get better. So

1024
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 1: it's really starting from the little clues and developing curiosity

1025
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 1: and then kind of developing a menu, like a vocabulary

1026
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 1: for all these little things that happen in you, Like

1027
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 1: from having like three words for feelings like I'm angry,

1028
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 1: I'm bored, I'm happy, you know, you can start expanding

1029
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 1: to twelve words and then eventually to like seventy words,

1030
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 1: and then you know, it gets it gets interesting.

1031
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:39,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I feel like people have to be patient

1032
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 2: before we dive into the next moment. Let's hear from

1033
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 2: our sponsors and back to our episode. That's what I

1034
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 2: found in relationships the most, that a lot of us

1035
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 2: are waiting for everything to change at the next therapy session. Yeah,

1036
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 2: the next twenty four hours, Yeah, the next argument, or

1037
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 2: we just learned that it should be solved now, right.

1038
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 2: And I'm like, you realize they've been practicing that habit.

1039
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:08,800
Speaker 1: For like twas generations Yeah, yeah.

1040
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 2: And generations even more than twenty nine years, And so

1041
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 2: I just feel like we've lost our ability to be

1042
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:21,240
Speaker 2: patient because there's so much choice. Yeah, and there's a

1043
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 2: feeling that, well, someone must be able to do all

1044
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:26,200
Speaker 2: these things. Yeah, what do we do when we think

1045
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 2: that way?

1046
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 1: I'm a big advocate for you know, slowness. I mean,

1047
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 1: psychoanalysis is a slow process. We spend like several times

1048
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 1: a week and over years, like slowly attending to things.

1049
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 1: I think when people are offered the experience of going

1050
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 1: through things slowly, they suddenly remember, oh, this is actually

1051
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 1: good for me. I mean, rather than scrolling through like

1052
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 1: a million quick videos or snippets of things, or like

1053
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,720
Speaker 1: just the headlines of news to sync into something is

1054
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 1: actually gratifying, Right, it feels good. Yeah, you just have

1055
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 1: to be guided. You have to offer people a frame,

1056
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 1: like the analytic frame. Like people sit in my office,

1057
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 1: A couple sits for an hour without looking at their phones,

1058
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:20,400
Speaker 1: and we're slowly working through things, and then it feels

1059
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 1: good and things really happen. So it's just having the experience.

1060
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to focus on a different life cycle

1061
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,120
Speaker 2: part of relationships. When people are starting to date, all

1062
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 2: the things that they can look for that show the

1063
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:40,200
Speaker 2: sign of someone being a strong partner for them or

1064
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 2: a week partner.

1065
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 1: You know that so much happens early on when we

1066
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 1: just meet people that is unconscious. So much is unconscious,

1067
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 1: like years later, you'll be able to analyze why you

1068
01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 1: really like this person or what went wrong. So it's

1069
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 1: hard to make people really fully aware of what's moving them.

1070
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 1: I would say listen to your gut. Your gut is

1071
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 1: telling you important things, and it might be telling you

1072
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 1: important things about yourself, about your own history. It might

1073
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 1: be telling you to keep repeating the same mistakes, or

1074
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 1: it might be telling you something really worth listening to

1075
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 1: about the other person that is good. Don't be afraid,

1076
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 1: so listen to your gut. I would also say listen

1077
01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 1: to what the other person is telling you. People often

1078
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 1: disclose a lot about themselves right at the beginning, and

1079
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 1: we often don't listen. I know that from when patients

1080
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:45,520
Speaker 1: come into my practice and I'm having first sessions with people.

1081
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 1: Often people tell me everything right at the beginning, even

1082
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 1: in the way they they're like ate to a session

1083
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 1: and the way they explain it, they might be telling

1084
01:02:56,400 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 1: me a lot about their whole life history, just just

1085
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 1: in the very beginning. So listen. Don't ignore information that's

1086
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 1: right in front of you. Like Hillary was actually telling

1087
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:17,440
Speaker 1: me that a friend of hers dated someone who I

1088
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 1: think on their first date told her I have a

1089
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 1: suitcase of unpaid bills under my bed, and she thought

1090
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 1: it's funny and ignored that. Of course, only later later

1091
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 1: or later to find out. I mean, this person was

1092
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:34,919
Speaker 1: like a mess.

1093
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 2: It sounded funny.

1094
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 1: On the it sounded funny, but they're telling you real information.

1095
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 1: So listen. Listen to what people are telling you. Listen

1096
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 1: is generally a good piece of advice.

1097
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 2: If someone tells you that they have a bad relationship

1098
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 2: with their parents, are there certain things to expect or

1099
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:56,800
Speaker 2: is that too general?

1100
01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:02,439
Speaker 1: First of all, that's an interesting piece of information. Talking

1101
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 1: about listening, I would immediately get curious, like what is

1102
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 1: the person telling me? Is the person telling me something

1103
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 1: about early trauma? And I'd want to know what happened

1104
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 1: and how did this person. What does it mean to

1105
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 1: not have a good relationship with a parent after trauma?

1106
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:31,920
Speaker 1: So I'd want to know what happened And is the

1107
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:37,400
Speaker 1: person you're getting to know are they did something bad

1108
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 1: happen to them with their family of origin and they

1109
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 1: have developed a certain kind of wisdom where they know

1110
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 1: how to separate themselves from from earlier traumatic experiences are

1111
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:53,760
Speaker 1: not good experiences and they've kind of formed their own

1112
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 1: personhood in a way that you can trust. Or is

1113
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 1: this so I mean, to the other end of things,

1114
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:07,720
Speaker 1: is someone in a way stuck in something that they

1115
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 1: kind of have not found a way to work their

1116
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:14,960
Speaker 1: way out of, and they're going to be forever stuck

1117
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 1: in a certain old pattern that they really need to

1118
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 1: be doing the work to move out of. So you know,

1119
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm giving two extremes, Like one is I've

1120
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 1: had like something bad happened to me, or that this

1121
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 1: was not good and I've just worked my way out

1122
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:37,960
Speaker 1: of it and I'm separate from this family of origin.

1123
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 1: Or on the other extreme is yeah, I hold a

1124
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:46,160
Speaker 1: grudge and I'm forever grudging these parents And really I'm

1125
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:48,800
Speaker 1: going to be repeating that in this relationship too, because

1126
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 1: this is my life story, grudge.

1127
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 2: It's so hard because it seems like long term relationships,

1128
01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 2: which is what we all want, require three types of healing,

1129
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 2: Like that person needs to heal, You need to heal,

1130
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 2: and then you need to heal together, and you need

1131
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:08,080
Speaker 2: to make space for them to heal, They need to spay,

1132
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:10,400
Speaker 2: make space for you to heal. You need to make

1133
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:13,439
Speaker 2: space for yourself to heal. And then there's so much

1134
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:20,280
Speaker 2: healing required, and it requires so much patience, compassion, empathy,

1135
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 2: like almost endless to some degree. Again, I'm not talking

1136
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:29,000
Speaker 2: about abusive or you know, violent relationships. We're talking about

1137
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:32,760
Speaker 2: a relationship that's not abusive or violent. There's like endless

1138
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 2: amounts because you know, it's like things were great and

1139
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 2: then you had a child, and then the childed challenges

1140
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:41,800
Speaker 2: and then you went through that together. And I've had

1141
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 2: so many friends this year go through a miscarriage and

1142
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 2: like that created new things in their relationship that they

1143
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 2: didn't have before because they both dealt with grief differently.

1144
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:56,360
Speaker 1: Some Sarah, life is difficult. I mean, life's amazing, but

1145
01:06:56,560 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 1: life is full of I mean, you know, Americans think

1146
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:05,720
Speaker 1: that life is about pleasure and happiness. I mean life

1147
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:09,440
Speaker 1: is a challenge. I mean, I mean death is embedded

1148
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: in life. I mean life is full of difficulties. There's

1149
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 1: always loss, there's always a challenge. It's the stuff of life,

1150
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:23,720
Speaker 1: and I welcome that. That's what life is about.

1151
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:26,400
Speaker 2: How do you know your relationship is strong enough? How

1152
01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 2: do you prepare? Not that you can ever prepare for

1153
01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 2: anything like that, but how do you know you're in

1154
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 2: a strong, healthy relationship? Because I think up until now,

1155
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:39,280
Speaker 2: the only marker we've had, which I don't agree with,

1156
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:42,480
Speaker 2: is we never argue. So a lot of people will

1157
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:44,480
Speaker 2: be like, oh, I have a great relations We never argue, right,

1158
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 2: which is that sounds scary? I agree, but I feel

1159
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:52,200
Speaker 2: like that's been our only metric of how we perceive.

1160
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:54,760
Speaker 2: If we say someone has a great manure, they never argue.

1161
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 2: Have you seen them like it's great?

1162
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 1: Right?

1163
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:58,840
Speaker 2: It's not. We don't have more than that. We don't

1164
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 2: have a bigger grading exercise. We do length. So we said, oh,

1165
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 2: they've been together for thirty years, they must have a

1166
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:08,760
Speaker 2: great marriage. So we use length as a marker of success.

1167
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:12,640
Speaker 2: We use not arguing or like they rarely have you know,

1168
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 2: disagreements or whatever, maybe as a marker of success and

1169
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:18,400
Speaker 2: we have oh they have a beautiful family, like if

1170
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:20,680
Speaker 2: they have kids in it. Yeah, it feels like we

1171
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:24,240
Speaker 2: have very basic markers to assume that someone has a

1172
01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:27,759
Speaker 2: healthy relationship. How do we make sure we're in a strong,

1173
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:29,840
Speaker 2: healthy relationship? What does that look like?

1174
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:32,479
Speaker 1: First of all, I would say that what we said earlier,

1175
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:36,639
Speaker 1: that kind of stance when you spend time with a couple,

1176
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:39,120
Speaker 1: When you spend time with a couple, you have they

1177
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 1: have they build a certain there's a way that there's

1178
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 1: an atmosphere around them that you can it's palpable. And

1179
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 1: if the atmosphere around them is of a certain kind

1180
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:55,680
Speaker 1: of mutual respect, adoration, a certain kind of acceptance, that

1181
01:08:56,120 --> 01:08:58,759
Speaker 1: is that is a good relationship. That is a good

1182
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:02,200
Speaker 1: world to live in. They've created a world in which

1183
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 1: they they're there is space for them to thrive. So

1184
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:09,040
Speaker 1: it's sort of the music of a relationship. Is it

1185
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:14,880
Speaker 1: a music of like a mutual respect adoration or is

1186
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:20,080
Speaker 1: it a music of gotcha? This is where you failed,

1187
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 1: This is where you messed up. So that's one dimension.

1188
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 1: I would say. If a couple is changing together, meaning

1189
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:34,240
Speaker 1: is there a room for each of them to change

1190
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:36,920
Speaker 1: at their own speed, and together as a couple of

1191
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:41,200
Speaker 1: do they go through changes in evolutions. That's a really

1192
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:45,920
Speaker 1: good quality of the relationship. That it's it's you know

1193
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:50,080
Speaker 1: that it doesn't break under pressure, but it changes under pressure.

1194
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:54,360
Speaker 1: That's that's a very strong quality. I mean, couples that

1195
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 1: don't argue scare me. I don't know how they what

1196
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:01,680
Speaker 1: what happens there? What do they just not talk or

1197
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:04,439
Speaker 1: do they not reveal ways in which they're different? Or

1198
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 1: that's scary?

1199
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:08,680
Speaker 2: Tell me more on that.

1200
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 1: I like that, Like, what how do you not never argue?

1201
01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:13,120
Speaker 2: Like?

1202
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:15,719
Speaker 1: What are you just the same person?

1203
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:16,200
Speaker 2: Have you?

1204
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:19,679
Speaker 1: Have you become like enmessed with each other and everything

1205
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:24,720
Speaker 1: about you that is different? You just repress or dissociate.

1206
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:26,600
Speaker 1: Are you so afraid of conflict?

1207
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 2: Are you?

1208
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:32,519
Speaker 1: Where are you each? Have you vanished? It just seems unreal.

1209
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:40,680
Speaker 1: I think the ability to face differences and back to

1210
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:44,600
Speaker 1: what we were talking about earlier, find how how have

1211
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:48,200
Speaker 1: you faced your differences? How do you work through your differences?

1212
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 1: Is what's really interesting about a relationship and that's where

1213
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:55,200
Speaker 1: it's life is. But can I ask you what would

1214
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:58,400
Speaker 1: you say are the markers of like a good relationship?

1215
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:03,880
Speaker 2: Appreciate your answer? I think it's unique. I've not heard

1216
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:08,320
Speaker 2: those things before, and I appreciate that a lot. I

1217
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 2: think one where both people don't expect the other person

1218
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:17,519
Speaker 2: to value what they value, but they allow the other

1219
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:20,200
Speaker 2: person to have their values and they have their own,

1220
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:25,320
Speaker 2: and both people respect each other's values, but they don't

1221
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:28,800
Speaker 2: want the other person to believe as strongly about theirs

1222
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:32,080
Speaker 2: as they do the others, because I just think that

1223
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:37,400
Speaker 2: that's pretty difficult if you're honest. It's easy if you're

1224
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:39,800
Speaker 2: living at a surface level and a superficial level to

1225
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:42,240
Speaker 2: be like, oh, we both value family, and it's like, well,

1226
01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 2: you don't really like maybe it's second on your list,

1227
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:49,200
Speaker 2: but first on your list is your career. Let's just

1228
01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:52,080
Speaker 2: be honest. There's nothing wrong with that, but let's be

1229
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:55,800
Speaker 2: honest about it. And hey, for family, it's not really family.

1230
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 2: It's specifically your kids, it's not the whole family. So

1231
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:02,200
Speaker 2: let's really be let's get really honest about that, and

1232
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:04,360
Speaker 2: then we may realize we have different values. That doesn't

1233
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:07,400
Speaker 2: break our relationship because I respect and we know where

1234
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:09,360
Speaker 2: we stand. So I think that's a sign of a

1235
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:11,720
Speaker 2: healthy relashue when we could be really That's what I

1236
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:14,400
Speaker 2: think honesty is I don't think honesty is I did this,

1237
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:17,240
Speaker 2: what did you do? That's a part of honesty, but yeah,

1238
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:18,240
Speaker 2: the real honesty is like.

1239
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:20,519
Speaker 1: The depth of your what you believe in?

1240
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:23,479
Speaker 2: Yeah? What can I really tell you what I believe in? Yeah?

1241
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 2: And you're okay with it? Yeah, And of course when

1242
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:29,559
Speaker 2: that changes, it can be hard. And I think that's

1243
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:31,720
Speaker 2: a sign of a good relationship is how we deal

1244
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:34,800
Speaker 2: with new information and change. And that doesn't mean you

1245
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:36,920
Speaker 2: have to stay together if the information is not what

1246
01:12:37,040 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 2: you want to hear or isn't right for you. But

1247
01:12:39,439 --> 01:12:43,519
Speaker 2: I think a strong and healthy relationship is where you

1248
01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:48,840
Speaker 2: are okay with most changes and you're able to flow

1249
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:52,400
Speaker 2: rather than saying, well, you're not the same person you were.

1250
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:55,000
Speaker 2: I thought you were this right, and they're like, yeah,

1251
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:57,920
Speaker 2: we've been together for ten years and so I think

1252
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 2: a healthy relationship is one that allows for different iterations

1253
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:05,599
Speaker 2: of each other and what that comes with, and rather

1254
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:07,320
Speaker 2: than trying to hold on to the person you had

1255
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:10,080
Speaker 2: on your wedding day, you're open to the idea that

1256
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:12,960
Speaker 2: they're actually going to be different every day in every decade.

1257
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:15,400
Speaker 2: I would say, I help the relationship is one where

1258
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:19,360
Speaker 2: you don't depend on the other person for everything. When

1259
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:23,120
Speaker 2: you have other people in your life, your friends, your family,

1260
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:26,720
Speaker 2: your parents, you have other people you can turn to

1261
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:30,599
Speaker 2: as well as turning to your partner. But it isn't

1262
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:34,639
Speaker 2: an over dependence on them, or it isn't the opposite,

1263
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:36,760
Speaker 2: which is an over reliance and everyone else and no

1264
01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:40,240
Speaker 2: dependence on them. When it comes to my relationship, I

1265
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:42,679
Speaker 2: talk to my partner. When it comes to other stuff,

1266
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:44,840
Speaker 2: I have other people to talk about it with, right,

1267
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:47,240
Speaker 2: Like that balance of if we're talking about issues in

1268
01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:48,840
Speaker 2: the relationship, I don't need to talk to someone else.

1269
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:50,400
Speaker 2: I need to talk to my partner about it. They're

1270
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:52,439
Speaker 2: the person I need to go to. But if I

1271
01:13:52,479 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 2: have issues with something that came up today and actually

1272
01:13:56,160 --> 01:13:58,719
Speaker 2: I love venting with my mom or my brother or whatever,

1273
01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:01,160
Speaker 2: then that's what I'm going to turn. Yeah, so that's

1274
01:14:01,200 --> 01:14:01,880
Speaker 2: what comes to mind.

1275
01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:04,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, And can I go back and ask you. I'm

1276
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 1: just curious what you think about, Like what for you

1277
01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:10,480
Speaker 1: is like a sign of a bad relationship.

1278
01:14:11,439 --> 01:14:18,200
Speaker 2: I want to ask you too. I have a really

1279
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:25,519
Speaker 2: interesting perspective on love and relationships and it comes from

1280
01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:27,759
Speaker 2: my mom. Like I believe my mom made me believe

1281
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:30,320
Speaker 2: that I was lovable and that I feel that in

1282
01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 2: my core, and so giving love for me feels very

1283
01:14:34,160 --> 01:14:37,120
Speaker 2: easy because I feel like I was showered in it

1284
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:39,040
Speaker 2: since I was a kid. And when I say love,

1285
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:41,839
Speaker 2: I mean love, I don't mean things. I don't mean stuff,

1286
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:45,360
Speaker 2: I don't mean I mean just I think my mom

1287
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:47,639
Speaker 2: loves me. And I've always felt that my mom's love

1288
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:51,439
Speaker 2: was a shield to early trauma that I did experience

1289
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:54,880
Speaker 2: but didn't penetrate the shield, and so I feel very lucky.

1290
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:56,559
Speaker 2: So I feel like I could love the whole world

1291
01:14:56,640 --> 01:15:00,479
Speaker 2: and never run out. And it's and it from my mom.

1292
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:03,000
Speaker 2: My mom gets the credit for that. And what you

1293
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:04,600
Speaker 2: were saying when you're like, does that mom have that

1294
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:06,439
Speaker 2: look in her eyes? Yeah, like my mom has that,

1295
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:08,519
Speaker 2: Like I could totally resonate. I was like, yeah, that's

1296
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:11,840
Speaker 2: my mom, So that's why you can. Yeah. So I

1297
01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:14,200
Speaker 2: have an unlimited I feel an unlimited And of course

1298
01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:16,479
Speaker 2: I feel very connected to God, I feel connected to source.

1299
01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:20,320
Speaker 2: So I feel a very unlimited sense of love. It

1300
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:22,639
Speaker 2: shows up in different ways. Sometimes setting love is setting

1301
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:26,920
Speaker 2: boundaries and not overgiving or compassion fatigue, and you know,

1302
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:29,479
Speaker 2: all those things have to be taken into account. But

1303
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:31,720
Speaker 2: I think when you asked me what's a sort of

1304
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:37,960
Speaker 2: an unhealthy relationship or a bad relationship, I think it's

1305
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 2: when I feel that we're both only looking at the

1306
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:49,080
Speaker 2: other person's mistakes, we're not looking at our own, and

1307
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:52,760
Speaker 2: we're looking for all accountability to be taken by the

1308
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:58,000
Speaker 2: other person and not ours, and we're not willing to

1309
01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:04,320
Speaker 2: at certain time be potentially the savior of the relationship

1310
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:06,920
Speaker 2: when we're thinking, well, they should be doing it too.

1311
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:10,439
Speaker 2: And I think a healthy relationship is recognizing some days

1312
01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:13,040
Speaker 2: you're going to carry me, and some dames, I'm going

1313
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:15,600
Speaker 2: to carry you. And yes, it may have looked like

1314
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:18,200
Speaker 2: I carried you for the last two years, but you

1315
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:21,040
Speaker 2: may carry me for the next two. And I don't

1316
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:23,240
Speaker 2: want to live in a world where we're counting every

1317
01:16:23,439 --> 01:16:26,920
Speaker 2: day whether everything is fifty to fifty, because I don't

1318
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 2: think it works that way. Like my wife was there

1319
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:30,840
Speaker 2: were you know, when we first got married and we

1320
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:35,040
Speaker 2: moved to New York and she was away from her family,

1321
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:38,559
Speaker 2: and she never once complained to me she missed her

1322
01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:41,160
Speaker 2: family a lot, and she told me she missed them

1323
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:46,200
Speaker 2: and in London and she missed her family a lot,

1324
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:47,960
Speaker 2: but she didn't complain to me. She didn't nag me,

1325
01:16:48,040 --> 01:16:49,679
Speaker 2: she didn't tell me like it was all my fault

1326
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:52,120
Speaker 2: that she was away from her family, and so I

1327
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 2: know she tolerated a lot. And at the same time,

1328
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:56,519
Speaker 2: all I wanted was for her to be with her

1329
01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 2: family because I knew how much that meant to her.

1330
01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:01,400
Speaker 2: H And I would say that in those early years,

1331
01:17:01,560 --> 01:17:03,920
Speaker 2: she was so patient and so tolerant with the fact

1332
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:06,040
Speaker 2: that we'd moved here for my work and my mission

1333
01:17:06,160 --> 01:17:10,000
Speaker 2: and my purpose and I was living my dream, but

1334
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:11,920
Speaker 2: a part of my dream is also seeing her happy.

1335
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 2: So my dream wasn't complete either. But I think the

1336
01:17:15,439 --> 01:17:18,400
Speaker 2: point is she carried me in those years because she

1337
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:21,960
Speaker 2: didn't feel like a weight she could have, but she

1338
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:24,920
Speaker 2: chose not to, even though she was honest about how

1339
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:26,840
Speaker 2: she felt. But it wasn't like it was my fault.

1340
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:30,240
Speaker 2: It didn't feel projected onto me. And then she's been

1341
01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:32,360
Speaker 2: through such an evolution in the last couple of years

1342
01:17:32,479 --> 01:17:36,080
Speaker 2: where her role in our life has changed, her career

1343
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:40,800
Speaker 2: has taken off, her purposes blossomed. So much has happened,

1344
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:43,200
Speaker 2: and I feel I've been there for her while she's

1345
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:46,120
Speaker 2: been finding herself and discovering herself and I've been open

1346
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:48,000
Speaker 2: to that, and I'm like, but if she was like

1347
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:50,000
Speaker 2: looking at it in the early days and it's like

1348
01:17:50,120 --> 01:17:52,360
Speaker 2: I moved for you, I did all this for you,

1349
01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:55,080
Speaker 2: what are you doing for me? You're just living your dream.

1350
01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:57,080
Speaker 2: If she said that to me, I don't know if

1351
01:17:57,080 --> 01:18:00,439
Speaker 2: we would have survived. And then now when she needed

1352
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:03,599
Speaker 2: a partner to give her space to blossom and grow,

1353
01:18:04,320 --> 01:18:06,000
Speaker 2: if she would have left me before for all those

1354
01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:07,880
Speaker 2: reasons or whatever, then she may not have found a

1355
01:18:07,920 --> 01:18:09,920
Speaker 2: person who is willing to And I wasn't doing it

1356
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:11,040
Speaker 2: because she did it for me. I was doing it

1357
01:18:11,080 --> 01:18:13,160
Speaker 2: because I love her. Yeah, And I think that's what

1358
01:18:13,200 --> 01:18:15,000
Speaker 2: it is. You're motivated from a place of it's not

1359
01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:16,800
Speaker 2: like I'm counting. I'm just doing this because I love you.

1360
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:19,840
Speaker 2: I'm not doing this because Yeah, that makes a lot

1361
01:18:19,880 --> 01:18:21,320
Speaker 2: of sense. Yeah, does that make sense? I don't know.

1362
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:22,759
Speaker 2: Sorry I took a windly rotation.

1363
01:18:22,840 --> 01:18:26,280
Speaker 1: No, no, no. It also ties to a few of

1364
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:29,200
Speaker 1: the things we've been talking about. It sort of. It

1365
01:18:29,320 --> 01:18:32,320
Speaker 1: even ties to like the question of like if someone

1366
01:18:32,439 --> 01:18:35,920
Speaker 1: says I'm estranged from my family of origin, Like, again,

1367
01:18:36,120 --> 01:18:39,280
Speaker 1: is it like a stance of like they didn't do

1368
01:18:39,479 --> 01:18:42,280
Speaker 1: enough for me grudge grudge, grudge or is it a

1369
01:18:42,360 --> 01:18:45,759
Speaker 1: stance of I'm taking responsibility for myself?

1370
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:48,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it all comes down to the

1371
01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:52,120
Speaker 2: old wisdom of just what can I do, what can

1372
01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:55,240
Speaker 2: I control? What can I focus on? It's not about

1373
01:18:55,280 --> 01:18:57,840
Speaker 2: what I can't control, and yeah, what I don't think about,

1374
01:18:58,240 --> 01:19:00,360
Speaker 2: or the blame game or the blame game you ask

1375
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:02,040
Speaker 2: you about some of more of those things actually, Like,

1376
01:19:02,160 --> 01:19:04,640
Speaker 2: what are your thoughts on how often do you hear

1377
01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:07,880
Speaker 2: the word gas lighting in the office? Is it common?

1378
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:10,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, there are There are a bunch of words

1379
01:19:10,120 --> 01:19:11,960
Speaker 1: that I hear a lot now in the office that

1380
01:19:12,040 --> 01:19:24,719
Speaker 1: I think come from Yeah, yeah, gaslighting, triggers, trauma, love bombing,

1381
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:27,400
Speaker 1: love bombing. Yeah, recently there was a lot of love

1382
01:19:27,479 --> 01:19:28,000
Speaker 1: bombing it.

1383
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:30,760
Speaker 2: What are your reactions to this word? So when I

1384
01:19:30,800 --> 01:19:33,759
Speaker 2: say the word love bombing, yeah, what are you an issue?

1385
01:19:33,800 --> 01:19:35,280
Speaker 2: What are your instant thoughts?

1386
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:42,400
Speaker 1: My instant thoughts are, first of all, I'm old because

1387
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:49,759
Speaker 1: I came in with a different vocabulary, and I typically

1388
01:19:50,040 --> 01:19:56,040
Speaker 1: ask people to or there's another one activated, I'm activated.

1389
01:19:56,080 --> 01:19:59,440
Speaker 1: That's people are using that a lot, triggered and activated.

1390
01:20:01,960 --> 01:20:07,600
Speaker 1: I typically ask people to I like play dumb, and

1391
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:10,040
Speaker 1: I say, tell me what you mean. I don't know

1392
01:20:10,120 --> 01:20:14,000
Speaker 1: what you mean, because they usually the way people use

1393
01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:18,680
Speaker 1: these words is they have a feeling about something, but

1394
01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:21,599
Speaker 1: they don't exactly know what that something is, so they

1395
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:24,760
Speaker 1: grab a word I guess from TikTok that kind of

1396
01:20:24,840 --> 01:20:28,599
Speaker 1: supposedly captures it, and then they're done thinking. They stop

1397
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:32,479
Speaker 1: investigating themselves. They stop really, they're just like, aha, I

1398
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 1: found the culprit gaslighting. That's what's happening to me. I

1399
01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:37,400
Speaker 1: don't have to think about it anymore. Someone is bad,

1400
01:20:38,080 --> 01:20:38,240
Speaker 1: you know.

1401
01:20:38,439 --> 01:20:40,280
Speaker 2: It's usually I love that. I agree with you.

1402
01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:43,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's usually a lot more complicated than I found

1403
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:44,960
Speaker 1: the word and someone is bad.

1404
01:20:45,479 --> 01:20:47,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost a relief we feel when we find

1405
01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:50,560
Speaker 2: the word. Yeah, but actually he's a narcissist.

1406
01:20:50,840 --> 01:20:53,000
Speaker 1: He's a narcissist. He's gaslighting me.

1407
01:20:53,479 --> 01:20:56,360
Speaker 2: So I feel like the world as everyone feels like

1408
01:20:56,400 --> 01:20:58,320
Speaker 2: they've dated a narcissist.

1409
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:04,000
Speaker 1: You one hundred percent accurate, because we all have parts

1410
01:21:04,040 --> 01:21:08,759
Speaker 1: of ourselves that are narcissistically oriented, meaning there to protect

1411
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:13,320
Speaker 1: our sense of self. Some people move more to the extreme,

1412
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:17,760
Speaker 1: and they're really like deeply wounded and have to spend

1413
01:21:17,840 --> 01:21:22,000
Speaker 1: a lot of energy protecting themselves and working around their ego.

1414
01:21:22,280 --> 01:21:28,320
Speaker 1: But most of us, in certain situations were provoked to

1415
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:32,960
Speaker 1: behave in more narcissistic ways, and when we're offered other conditions,

1416
01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:36,840
Speaker 1: we can be more open and interested in the world.

1417
01:21:37,640 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 1: So it's usually the way it's used in pop language.

1418
01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:44,200
Speaker 1: It's usually just like a word that covers up a

1419
01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:48,200
Speaker 1: whole other world of things. I think when people talk

1420
01:21:48,240 --> 01:21:52,639
Speaker 1: about I've dated a narcissist, they're like, that person didn't

1421
01:21:52,680 --> 01:21:58,439
Speaker 1: give me enough attention, and what's that about?

1422
01:21:58,479 --> 01:21:58,519
Speaker 2: That?

1423
01:21:58,920 --> 01:22:01,519
Speaker 1: There could be so much there, like what went on

1424
01:22:01,680 --> 01:22:04,880
Speaker 1: between the two of you? Why what happened? Where were

1425
01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:08,519
Speaker 1: you in that it doesn't tell you much.

1426
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:11,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so happy to hear that, because I do

1427
01:22:11,400 --> 01:22:14,120
Speaker 2: think that the word is a relief and it's not

1428
01:22:14,200 --> 01:22:17,760
Speaker 2: that it's wrong, it's just that don't stop unpacking it there. Yeah,

1429
01:22:17,920 --> 01:22:21,080
Speaker 2: So those words are really helpful for you to categorize,

1430
01:22:21,120 --> 01:22:25,479
Speaker 2: summarize your experience, but don't feel that that's the end

1431
01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:29,120
Speaker 2: of the investigation, Like there's so much more exactly, and

1432
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:31,080
Speaker 2: you're actually doing yourself a disservice.

1433
01:22:31,280 --> 01:22:33,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the moment you're thinking about I found a

1434
01:22:33,920 --> 01:22:38,760
Speaker 1: word that finds all the problem outside of me, you're

1435
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:39,679
Speaker 1: deluding yourself.

1436
01:22:40,280 --> 01:22:43,200
Speaker 2: Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from

1437
01:22:43,240 --> 01:22:47,080
Speaker 2: our sponsors. Thanks for taking a moment for that. Now

1438
01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:49,960
Speaker 2: back to the discussion. When you find couples coming with

1439
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:53,360
Speaker 2: financial issues, is it really about money?

1440
01:22:53,760 --> 01:22:56,080
Speaker 1: Money is a big issue for people. Money is a

1441
01:22:56,120 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 1: big issue for people. You know, the question of money.

1442
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:02,280
Speaker 1: One of the questions that people that couples deal with

1443
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:07,679
Speaker 1: when they're fighting or debating about money is the deep

1444
01:23:07,840 --> 01:23:14,920
Speaker 1: question of mine versus ours? What's mine and what are

1445
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:18,840
Speaker 1: we sharing? And the most concrete version of it is money,

1446
01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:25,719
Speaker 1: but it's everything. It's time, it's attention, it's airtime, it's sex,

1447
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:31,519
Speaker 1: it's so much. Is like mine versus ours, But money

1448
01:23:31,640 --> 01:23:33,960
Speaker 1: is like, especially in our culture, money is like the

1449
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:36,439
Speaker 1: most concrete way to talk about it and to fight

1450
01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:39,840
Speaker 1: about it. Like if you're making more money than your

1451
01:23:40,120 --> 01:23:44,439
Speaker 1: spouse or than your partner who pays for dinner, Like

1452
01:23:44,640 --> 01:23:47,240
Speaker 1: what's the vibe between the two of you? Is it

1453
01:23:47,800 --> 01:23:52,320
Speaker 1: shared money or is it no? We're still going Dutch right.

1454
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:56,360
Speaker 1: Fights about money are about the concreteness of money, but

1455
01:23:56,400 --> 01:24:00,240
Speaker 1: they're also about where do I begin and end? And

1456
01:24:00,400 --> 01:24:03,960
Speaker 1: what's us together. And then there's a whole other thing

1457
01:24:04,040 --> 01:24:07,560
Speaker 1: with money, which is money is also something to do

1458
01:24:07,800 --> 01:24:14,400
Speaker 1: with our relationship with reality, right, I mean back to

1459
01:24:14,439 --> 01:24:17,240
Speaker 1: the idea of someone hiding a suitcase with bills, unpaid

1460
01:24:17,280 --> 01:24:21,640
Speaker 1: bills under the bed, Like how realistic is your relationship

1461
01:24:21,800 --> 01:24:24,400
Speaker 1: with reality with what you have, with what you're making.

1462
01:24:25,360 --> 01:24:28,400
Speaker 1: Like when people talk about money, they're talking about reality

1463
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:33,360
Speaker 1: in certain ways. I usually ask people, how do you

1464
01:24:33,520 --> 01:24:36,320
Speaker 1: think money should play out between the two of you?

1465
01:24:37,120 --> 01:24:41,040
Speaker 1: If you're making more money than your partner, what is

1466
01:24:41,120 --> 01:24:44,040
Speaker 1: your ideology on this? What do you really think should happen?

1467
01:24:44,600 --> 01:24:47,880
Speaker 1: Does that give you more power? Does that mean you

1468
01:24:47,920 --> 01:24:51,479
Speaker 1: should be making more of the decisions? Does that mean

1469
01:24:51,600 --> 01:24:54,760
Speaker 1: your partner should be paying for less? How do you

1470
01:24:54,880 --> 01:24:57,920
Speaker 1: think about it? Each of you? Just what's your basic ideology?

1471
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:00,600
Speaker 1: Which is hard for people to acknowledge.

1472
01:25:00,800 --> 01:25:00,920
Speaker 2: Right.

1473
01:25:01,560 --> 01:25:04,160
Speaker 1: They want to feel like no, money doesn't matter, but

1474
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:07,120
Speaker 1: it matters to everyone in some way or another. They

1475
01:25:07,240 --> 01:25:10,560
Speaker 1: have an ideology, So are they willing to put it

1476
01:25:10,640 --> 01:25:12,559
Speaker 1: on the table to be honest with how they think

1477
01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:16,400
Speaker 1: about it? And then once you compare these ideologies, then

1478
01:25:16,400 --> 01:25:18,800
Speaker 1: we can have a discussion. It's back to the idea

1479
01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:25,720
Speaker 1: of like the couple creating their political backdrop, like what

1480
01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:29,920
Speaker 1: is the politics of this relationship? Are you like socialist?

1481
01:25:30,080 --> 01:25:31,320
Speaker 1: Or are you capitalist?

1482
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:31,760
Speaker 2: Or you.

1483
01:25:33,479 --> 01:25:34,280
Speaker 1: What's your economy?

1484
01:25:35,240 --> 01:25:38,000
Speaker 2: What if we vote differently, you probably will.

1485
01:25:37,880 --> 01:25:40,919
Speaker 1: Disagree on some level. You will somewhere you will disagree,

1486
01:25:40,960 --> 01:25:42,800
Speaker 1: and then it's going to get interesting. It's going to

1487
01:25:42,840 --> 01:25:46,760
Speaker 1: be like a congress, like right debating what's the right

1488
01:25:46,840 --> 01:25:48,840
Speaker 1: way to do it? But it's better to have that

1489
01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:52,439
Speaker 1: debate on the table rather than acted out in those

1490
01:25:52,600 --> 01:25:56,200
Speaker 1: like what was that film? There was that? Oh my god,

1491
01:25:56,280 --> 01:26:00,519
Speaker 1: it's a film in which there's a shipwreck. There's this

1492
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:03,439
Speaker 1: couple that are sitting at the dinner table and they're

1493
01:26:03,520 --> 01:26:05,320
Speaker 1: looking at each other like who's going to pull out

1494
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:05,960
Speaker 1: the credit card?

1495
01:26:06,080 --> 01:26:06,600
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know.

1496
01:26:07,439 --> 01:26:12,000
Speaker 1: Brilliant scene. Everything about their relationship was in that scene.

1497
01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:15,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, with her kind of pretending she lost

1498
01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:21,040
Speaker 1: her card, oh okay, and him but reluctantly pulling out

1499
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:24,679
Speaker 1: his credit card, and then there was It was just perfect.

1500
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:26,920
Speaker 2: I was thinking of a movie called fair Play. I

1501
01:26:26,960 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 2: did you see that?

1502
01:26:28,120 --> 01:26:29,240
Speaker 1: I heard about it. I didn't see it.

1503
01:26:29,439 --> 01:26:31,439
Speaker 2: I think you I don't know if you'd enjoy it.

1504
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:32,920
Speaker 2: I don't know. Your taste of movies. But I think

1505
01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:36,200
Speaker 2: it's pretty interesting. It's a story, but where it's a

1506
01:26:36,280 --> 01:26:39,600
Speaker 2: movie made about a couple who are competing for the

1507
01:26:39,640 --> 01:26:42,840
Speaker 2: same job because they work at the same company. But

1508
01:26:42,960 --> 01:26:46,920
Speaker 2: it's really dark and it really goes into that the

1509
01:26:47,040 --> 01:26:52,559
Speaker 2: psychology of competition, gender, roles, the pay gap, everything comes

1510
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:56,040
Speaker 2: to playah and it shows how it affects them from

1511
01:26:56,120 --> 01:26:59,559
Speaker 2: the bedroom to the boardroom to everywhere else. It's really

1512
01:26:59,600 --> 01:27:02,559
Speaker 2: well done. Yeah, it's really well done. It just shows

1513
01:27:02,600 --> 01:27:05,320
Speaker 2: you what's going on inside of our heads that doesn't

1514
01:27:05,360 --> 01:27:11,400
Speaker 2: often come out, and just how we all feel. And

1515
01:27:11,479 --> 01:27:14,160
Speaker 2: it's so interesting how society and all of this has

1516
01:27:14,200 --> 01:27:18,120
Speaker 2: such a play on how we feel about our role

1517
01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:20,000
Speaker 2: and who we are. Today, we have so many more

1518
01:27:20,040 --> 01:27:23,400
Speaker 2: people to look at and view and see how their

1519
01:27:23,479 --> 01:27:26,799
Speaker 2: lives are going. I had a friend who his girlfriend

1520
01:27:26,840 --> 01:27:29,479
Speaker 2: made more money than him, and he did really well

1521
01:27:29,479 --> 01:27:32,600
Speaker 2: for himself, but she made more money than him, but

1522
01:27:32,760 --> 01:27:36,639
Speaker 2: she expected him to pay for everything, and she wanted

1523
01:27:36,720 --> 01:27:40,200
Speaker 2: him not only to pay for dinners and rent, and

1524
01:27:40,720 --> 01:27:43,280
Speaker 2: she wanted him to buy her a car because she

1525
01:27:43,439 --> 01:27:46,240
Speaker 2: believed that because he's a man, because he's the man,

1526
01:27:46,760 --> 01:27:49,519
Speaker 2: that's how she should be treated and you know that

1527
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:50,040
Speaker 2: was for her.

1528
01:27:50,439 --> 01:27:53,280
Speaker 1: Imagine them having a conversation. They ended up breaking up,

1529
01:27:54,040 --> 01:27:58,160
Speaker 1: but what would their conversation sound like? Literally, this, I

1530
01:27:58,320 --> 01:28:01,479
Speaker 1: detailed this, I'm a queen, I'm a princess.

1531
01:28:01,760 --> 01:28:05,160
Speaker 2: I'm like this hour should be treated like you think

1532
01:28:05,240 --> 01:28:09,120
Speaker 2: she said something like she said stuff like this. Yeah, wow,

1533
01:28:09,240 --> 01:28:09,839
Speaker 2: that's amazing.

1534
01:28:09,960 --> 01:28:11,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing.

1535
01:28:11,840 --> 01:28:13,639
Speaker 2: And you see a lot of this language on TikTok

1536
01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:16,000
Speaker 2: and things like that about what a high value man is,

1537
01:28:16,120 --> 01:28:18,960
Speaker 2: what a high value woman is, and a lot of

1538
01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 2: the language and vocabulary out there. What is it?

1539
01:28:21,280 --> 01:28:22,960
Speaker 1: What is meant by a high value man?

1540
01:28:23,120 --> 01:28:27,000
Speaker 2: I mean, there's lots of different definitions, but generally it's

1541
01:28:27,040 --> 01:28:29,280
Speaker 2: someone who does has a good career, makes a lot

1542
01:28:29,320 --> 01:28:31,600
Speaker 2: of money, does well for themselves. And you know that

1543
01:28:32,120 --> 01:28:33,600
Speaker 2: the obvious definition of it.

1544
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:36,040
Speaker 1: Well it's not obvious, yeah no, but.

1545
01:28:38,040 --> 01:28:41,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's just interesting to hear how these societal

1546
01:28:41,200 --> 01:28:44,040
Speaker 2: ideas kind of because then we're like, oh, but you're

1547
01:28:44,040 --> 01:28:46,680
Speaker 2: not with a high value man, you know. And and

1548
01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:50,920
Speaker 2: it's really interesting because in my world, a high value

1549
01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:52,360
Speaker 2: man would be someone who has good value.

1550
01:28:52,360 --> 01:28:55,960
Speaker 1: It's like the good value being like ethics.

1551
01:28:55,840 --> 01:29:01,120
Speaker 2: Ethics, Yeah, exactly, like character, moral character, strength and bravery

1552
01:29:01,240 --> 01:29:04,479
Speaker 2: and yes, honesty and right, that's why I would consider

1553
01:29:04,520 --> 01:29:08,439
Speaker 2: a high value person forget man. Yeah, And it's interesting

1554
01:29:08,479 --> 01:29:13,320
Speaker 2: how all this language at play kind of cascades ideas quickly,

1555
01:29:13,479 --> 01:29:15,840
Speaker 2: Like you said, yeah, because it's easier rather than saying

1556
01:29:15,840 --> 01:29:17,280
Speaker 2: I'm with a good man. It's easy to arm with

1557
01:29:17,280 --> 01:29:22,439
Speaker 2: a high value man. But you know what does that mean? Right? Yeah,

1558
01:29:22,479 --> 01:29:25,200
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you do more people want

1559
01:29:25,360 --> 01:29:27,120
Speaker 2: more intimacy or more sex?

1560
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:32,400
Speaker 1: I think its first of all, it's it's a complicated

1561
01:29:32,520 --> 01:29:36,519
Speaker 1: thing to draw the line between intimacy and sex. Oh interesting, okay,

1562
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:40,639
Speaker 1: And I think it depends very much on the stage

1563
01:29:40,760 --> 01:29:44,360
Speaker 1: of the relationship early on. One of the things. I mean,

1564
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:47,000
Speaker 1: we all know that one of the things that binds people,

1565
01:29:47,080 --> 01:29:50,960
Speaker 1: one of the strongest glues is sex, like passion and

1566
01:29:51,080 --> 01:29:53,760
Speaker 1: excitement about each other and like, you know, wanting to

1567
01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:54,719
Speaker 1: get into bed together.

1568
01:29:55,720 --> 01:29:56,360
Speaker 2: And then.

1569
01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:02,480
Speaker 1: At some point people start coming to terms with like differences,

1570
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:07,439
Speaker 1: differences in scripts, differences in appetite. I know that the

1571
01:30:10,720 --> 01:30:14,120
Speaker 1: like the stereotype is that men are more focused on

1572
01:30:14,280 --> 01:30:16,720
Speaker 1: sex and want more sex, and women want less or

1573
01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:19,880
Speaker 1: it's less important to them. I don't think that's actually true.

1574
01:30:20,760 --> 01:30:23,720
Speaker 1: I think again, it's very hard to make generalizations, and

1575
01:30:23,800 --> 01:30:27,439
Speaker 1: it changes between like straight and queer couples. So it's

1576
01:30:27,520 --> 01:30:34,440
Speaker 1: really not necessarily about the biology. But I think typically

1577
01:30:36,400 --> 01:30:40,559
Speaker 1: there are different focuses for men and women, and then

1578
01:30:41,200 --> 01:30:45,840
Speaker 1: later in the relationship things change because I think later

1579
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:50,960
Speaker 1: in the relationship the line between sex and intimacy gets

1580
01:30:51,120 --> 01:30:56,120
Speaker 1: very blurry. And I think generally everyone wants both intimacy

1581
01:30:56,360 --> 01:31:00,120
Speaker 1: and sex. Everyone wants it, and everyone wishes it for

1582
01:31:00,200 --> 01:31:04,880
Speaker 1: themselves and wants it in large quantities. Everyone needs it,

1583
01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:07,440
Speaker 1: but they focus on different things.

1584
01:31:07,800 --> 01:31:08,920
Speaker 2: And no one has energy for.

1585
01:31:08,960 --> 01:31:11,879
Speaker 1: It, and no one has energy for it, and anyway,

1586
01:31:11,960 --> 01:31:15,520
Speaker 1: a lot of it is about wanting to feel desire

1587
01:31:16,160 --> 01:31:17,240
Speaker 1: of some sort.

1588
01:31:17,439 --> 01:31:18,040
Speaker 2: That's what it is.

1589
01:31:18,360 --> 01:31:22,200
Speaker 1: That's really what it is, and not necessarily wanting you know,

1590
01:31:23,680 --> 01:31:26,160
Speaker 1: oh I need to have it three times a week,

1591
01:31:26,280 --> 01:31:28,640
Speaker 1: or I need this, or I need that. It's a

1592
01:31:28,720 --> 01:31:32,400
Speaker 1: lot about the experience of desire and being desired. That

1593
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:36,559
Speaker 1: is really kind of the the thing we all want

1594
01:31:37,960 --> 01:31:40,840
Speaker 1: to be living in desire rather than living in a

1595
01:31:40,920 --> 01:31:44,800
Speaker 1: certain kind of deadness. That's ultimately what everyone wants.

1596
01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:46,920
Speaker 2: That's so powerful because it goes back to what we

1597
01:31:47,000 --> 01:31:48,760
Speaker 2: were talking about earlier of like we just want someone

1598
01:31:48,800 --> 01:31:50,720
Speaker 2: to believe in us. It's like we just want that

1599
01:31:50,840 --> 01:31:53,240
Speaker 2: feeling of yes, I have value, I have something to get.

1600
01:31:54,160 --> 01:31:59,759
Speaker 1: I'm desired, And people want to feel desire, to feel desired,

1601
01:32:00,120 --> 01:32:02,720
Speaker 1: so to feel desire for the other.

1602
01:32:03,320 --> 01:32:05,479
Speaker 2: And it's so interesting because it feels like our partners

1603
01:32:05,520 --> 01:32:07,759
Speaker 2: are the people that make us feel the least of everything,

1604
01:32:07,880 --> 01:32:10,960
Speaker 2: because it's like a partner makes us feel the least desired.

1605
01:32:11,520 --> 01:32:14,599
Speaker 2: A partner makes us feel the least important. We almost

1606
01:32:14,680 --> 01:32:17,400
Speaker 2: have this worry that if I say too many nice

1607
01:32:17,439 --> 01:32:20,360
Speaker 2: things to my partner, they'll get a big head, or

1608
01:32:20,360 --> 01:32:23,880
Speaker 2: if I'm too nice to them, they'll think that they're

1609
01:32:23,920 --> 01:32:26,720
Speaker 2: better than me. Like I feel like there's a subconscious

1610
01:32:26,800 --> 01:32:29,480
Speaker 2: this isn't something someone would say, but there's this subconscious

1611
01:32:29,560 --> 01:32:32,960
Speaker 2: belief of that I shouldn't honor my partner too much

1612
01:32:33,400 --> 01:32:34,960
Speaker 2: because it almost puts me in a week like a

1613
01:32:35,120 --> 01:32:37,560
Speaker 2: zero sum kind of yeah. Like it almost like a

1614
01:32:37,600 --> 01:32:40,679
Speaker 2: feeling of like weakness, like if I compliment them too much, yeah,

1615
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:43,360
Speaker 2: I'm weaker in this relationship because I'm the one who

1616
01:32:43,439 --> 01:32:44,000
Speaker 2: needs them more.

1617
01:32:44,520 --> 01:32:48,879
Speaker 1: It's a fear of vulnerability, of showing that you depend

1618
01:32:49,240 --> 01:32:53,280
Speaker 1: showing that you need, showing that you desire. It puts

1619
01:32:53,320 --> 01:32:57,680
Speaker 1: you in a vulnerable place. Yeah, but it's I.

1620
01:32:57,680 --> 01:32:58,960
Speaker 2: Mean, that's who everything is.

1621
01:32:59,240 --> 01:33:04,280
Speaker 1: But yeah, people thrive and feeling wanted and appreciated. Anything

1622
01:33:04,400 --> 01:33:09,160
Speaker 1: that makes people more stingy I think is problematic. I

1623
01:33:09,240 --> 01:33:17,679
Speaker 1: think stinginess withholding is like destructive. Give more, give, give, give,

1624
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:21,960
Speaker 1: give freely, create a good environment around.

1625
01:33:21,680 --> 01:33:24,120
Speaker 2: You or no. Thank you for your time and energy today.

1626
01:33:24,160 --> 01:33:27,280
Speaker 2: You've been so gracious and I've genuinely loved talking to you.

1627
01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:29,240
Speaker 2: I felt like I had I felt like I had

1628
01:33:29,280 --> 01:33:32,479
Speaker 2: so many new thoughts and ideas today just being in

1629
01:33:32,560 --> 01:33:34,200
Speaker 2: your presence. And now I'm like, now I know what

1630
01:33:34,280 --> 01:33:35,760
Speaker 2: it feels like to be in the room with you,

1631
01:33:35,880 --> 01:33:39,160
Speaker 2: and sweet Honestly, I mean that like I felt like

1632
01:33:39,200 --> 01:33:41,960
Speaker 2: everything was firing in my mind and I was connecting

1633
01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:44,479
Speaker 2: dots that I haven't before. So yeah, thank you such

1634
01:33:44,479 --> 01:33:46,240
Speaker 2: a joy for me too.

1635
01:33:46,280 --> 01:33:49,360
Speaker 1: Jay, It was wonderful questions and I love all the

1636
01:33:50,200 --> 01:33:53,080
Speaker 1: both the vignettes that you bring in that are immediately like,

1637
01:33:53,280 --> 01:33:55,639
Speaker 1: oh my god, the whole world is in this vignette,

1638
01:33:56,160 --> 01:33:59,120
Speaker 1: and the questions you're asking are right at the core.

1639
01:33:59,400 --> 01:34:03,040
Speaker 2: Thank you so kind. We end every on purpose interview

1640
01:34:03,040 --> 01:34:05,479
Speaker 2: with the final five. These questions have to be answered

1641
01:34:05,520 --> 01:34:07,559
Speaker 2: in one word to one sentence maximum.

1642
01:34:07,800 --> 01:34:09,200
Speaker 1: Okay, so these are.

1643
01:34:09,200 --> 01:34:10,360
Speaker 2: Your final five?

1644
01:34:10,479 --> 01:34:10,719
Speaker 1: Okay.

1645
01:34:10,800 --> 01:34:13,639
Speaker 2: The first question is what is the best relationship advice

1646
01:34:13,880 --> 01:34:15,120
Speaker 2: you've ever heard or received?

1647
01:34:15,600 --> 01:34:16,679
Speaker 1: Stay in your own lane?

1648
01:34:17,200 --> 01:34:19,800
Speaker 2: The best rest Why? How is the How does it

1649
01:34:20,200 --> 01:34:20,479
Speaker 2: tell me?

1650
01:34:20,800 --> 01:34:25,920
Speaker 1: It means don't intrude on someone else's journey, Like, stay

1651
01:34:26,000 --> 01:34:28,880
Speaker 1: in your own lane, do the thing you're supposed to do,

1652
01:34:29,120 --> 01:34:32,360
Speaker 1: and live and let live. Yeah, that's that's the best

1653
01:34:32,400 --> 01:34:35,440
Speaker 1: way to create a good environment for a relationship.

1654
01:34:35,760 --> 01:34:38,680
Speaker 2: Second question, what is the worst relationship advice you've ever

1655
01:34:38,720 --> 01:34:39,479
Speaker 2: heard or received?

1656
01:34:40,240 --> 01:34:41,680
Speaker 1: Don't let him get away with it?

1657
01:34:43,120 --> 01:34:44,120
Speaker 2: Why is that bad advice?

1658
01:34:44,360 --> 01:34:49,440
Speaker 1: That's paranoid? It's like a like, be suspicious, be paranoid,

1659
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:54,040
Speaker 1: don't give the benefit of the doubt, guard your own

1660
01:34:55,200 --> 01:34:58,360
Speaker 1: It's not a good attitude because because the way you

1661
01:34:59,080 --> 01:35:01,719
Speaker 1: the way you're approach, the way you look at a person,

1662
01:35:01,960 --> 01:35:04,080
Speaker 1: speaking of what we've been, that's what you're going to

1663
01:35:04,160 --> 01:35:08,040
Speaker 1: get back. If you're paranoid about someone, they're going to

1664
01:35:08,080 --> 01:35:08,519
Speaker 1: be bad.

1665
01:35:09,320 --> 01:35:12,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it steals your energy, and it steals your energy. Right.

1666
01:35:13,400 --> 01:35:16,960
Speaker 2: Question number three, what's something you used to believe was

1667
01:35:17,120 --> 01:35:20,360
Speaker 2: true about couples, but now you have a different view

1668
01:35:20,439 --> 01:35:20,600
Speaker 2: on it.

1669
01:35:21,439 --> 01:35:27,000
Speaker 1: Maybe I used to believe that compatibility is the most

1670
01:35:27,120 --> 01:35:34,200
Speaker 1: important thing, and now I think, like I said earlier,

1671
01:35:34,320 --> 01:35:38,720
Speaker 1: that the capacity to love someone who's different from you

1672
01:35:39,920 --> 01:35:41,599
Speaker 1: is the best source of growth.

1673
01:35:43,040 --> 01:35:47,760
Speaker 2: So well said, I love it. I'm sold on that idea. Great,

1674
01:35:47,880 --> 01:35:50,760
Speaker 2: that's everything Great. We've been spending too much time trying

1675
01:35:50,800 --> 01:35:54,160
Speaker 2: to find this like perfect match. Yeah, perfect fit. Who's

1676
01:35:54,280 --> 01:35:56,920
Speaker 2: like it's just like, yeah, there isn't I think about

1677
01:35:56,960 --> 01:35:59,479
Speaker 2: that With my wife. We are so different. We couldn't

1678
01:35:59,520 --> 01:36:03,439
Speaker 2: be more friend like in every way in so many ways,

1679
01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:08,080
Speaker 2: and I love being alone. She loves being surrounded by family. Like, yeah,

1680
01:36:08,479 --> 01:36:13,840
Speaker 2: I'm I'm super driven, focused, ambitious. She's fun, playful, doesn't

1681
01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:16,599
Speaker 2: take life seriously. It's great, Like it's just but it's

1682
01:36:16,680 --> 01:36:20,320
Speaker 2: so different. I'm always on time, I like order, I

1683
01:36:20,439 --> 01:36:25,320
Speaker 2: like structure, I like systems. She believes in fair, spontaneity

1684
01:36:25,400 --> 01:36:29,120
Speaker 2: and completely you know. Yeah, And so that initially did

1685
01:36:29,240 --> 01:36:33,280
Speaker 2: create so many rifts and challenges, Like it was hard

1686
01:36:33,320 --> 01:36:35,639
Speaker 2: because it was like I was ready to go on time,

1687
01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:37,360
Speaker 2: She's not to me.

1688
01:36:37,520 --> 01:36:38,920
Speaker 1: That's that's hard.

1689
01:36:39,040 --> 01:36:41,639
Speaker 2: A big issue. I want systems in order. I want

1690
01:36:41,680 --> 01:36:44,280
Speaker 2: to plan our weekend out, our vacation. And she's like,

1691
01:36:44,360 --> 01:36:45,720
Speaker 2: let's just go and see how it goes. I'm like,

1692
01:36:46,240 --> 01:36:48,800
Speaker 2: that's like my worst nightmare is to like turn up

1693
01:36:48,800 --> 01:36:50,960
Speaker 2: somewhere and see how it goes. Like what if it's booked,

1694
01:36:51,640 --> 01:36:54,559
Speaker 2: What if the show's booked, what if the scuba diving's

1695
01:36:54,560 --> 01:36:58,040
Speaker 2: book like whatever. It is, Like, that's like my worst How.

1696
01:36:58,000 --> 01:37:00,400
Speaker 1: Do you do it? Now? How can we do the

1697
01:37:00,479 --> 01:37:01,799
Speaker 1: lateness and not lateness?

1698
01:37:02,479 --> 01:37:04,360
Speaker 2: I realized that a lot of the things I wanted

1699
01:37:04,400 --> 01:37:07,040
Speaker 2: to be on time for didn't matter. There were things

1700
01:37:07,080 --> 01:37:10,200
Speaker 2: that were and things that didn't. It was me holding

1701
01:37:10,280 --> 01:37:15,240
Speaker 2: myself to a standard that wasn't always necessary. It comes

1702
01:37:15,320 --> 01:37:17,120
Speaker 2: back to her with the plates. It was the same thing.

1703
01:37:17,240 --> 01:37:19,479
Speaker 2: It was like, sometimes it is important to be on

1704
01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:20,920
Speaker 2: time like today it was important for me to be

1705
01:37:21,000 --> 01:37:23,880
Speaker 2: on time for you. Sometimes it's not important for me

1706
01:37:23,960 --> 01:37:26,240
Speaker 2: to be on time because it's casual and it's friends

1707
01:37:26,320 --> 01:37:29,040
Speaker 2: and everyone's kind of turning up and you've got a

1708
01:37:29,120 --> 01:37:31,120
Speaker 2: window to turn up in. But I still want to

1709
01:37:31,160 --> 01:37:34,360
Speaker 2: be there on time because that's just my training. Because

1710
01:37:34,360 --> 01:37:36,160
Speaker 2: my mum always told me, if you're not early, you're

1711
01:37:36,240 --> 01:37:39,200
Speaker 2: late and so that comes from that training of just

1712
01:37:39,320 --> 01:37:42,439
Speaker 2: military discipline, which is what I lived my life. So

1713
01:37:42,560 --> 01:37:45,160
Speaker 2: I had to learn that for the late thing. And

1714
01:37:45,240 --> 01:37:50,360
Speaker 2: then when it came on the vacations we planned. We

1715
01:37:50,479 --> 01:37:52,840
Speaker 2: both wanted one day on, one day off. So if

1716
01:37:52,880 --> 01:37:55,280
Speaker 2: you've got a MA cations for seven days, three or

1717
01:37:55,320 --> 01:37:56,920
Speaker 2: four of the days are planned and three and four

1718
01:37:56,920 --> 01:37:59,439
Speaker 2: of the days of content and we actually actually love that. Yeah,

1719
01:37:59,600 --> 01:38:01,960
Speaker 2: it worked, Whereas I used to do seven days planned,

1720
01:38:01,960 --> 01:38:04,680
Speaker 2: but that would exhaust me. Yeah, and so now I'm like, ah,

1721
01:38:04,760 --> 01:38:06,160
Speaker 2: this is actually a healthier solution.

1722
01:38:06,439 --> 01:38:06,840
Speaker 1: So yeah.

1723
01:38:07,080 --> 01:38:10,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Taken from that question number four, what is the

1724
01:38:11,040 --> 01:38:17,000
Speaker 2: most difficult relationship you've ever had to help or solve?

1725
01:38:18,040 --> 01:38:21,040
Speaker 1: I have two things that come to mind. One is

1726
01:38:22,200 --> 01:38:28,120
Speaker 1: a relationship in which I did feel like one one

1727
01:38:28,400 --> 01:38:32,640
Speaker 1: in the couple was just too My explanation is that

1728
01:38:32,720 --> 01:38:40,480
Speaker 1: he was just too traumatized and he kept really viciously

1729
01:38:40,720 --> 01:38:46,240
Speaker 1: abusing his wife in my presence. And I really tried everything,

1730
01:38:46,320 --> 01:38:49,040
Speaker 1: and I believe they really wanted to change. But I

1731
01:38:50,160 --> 01:38:54,080
Speaker 1: I tried everything, and I had no impact on him,

1732
01:38:54,360 --> 01:38:57,799
Speaker 1: no impact like he tried. I sent him to read books,

1733
01:38:58,439 --> 01:39:01,280
Speaker 1: I worked with him. Individual Julie some of the time.

1734
01:39:01,360 --> 01:39:04,040
Speaker 1: I had to like remove them from the room some

1735
01:39:04,200 --> 01:39:07,160
Speaker 1: of the sessions and do some work. I really put

1736
01:39:07,280 --> 01:39:11,280
Speaker 1: my heart and soul into helping them get out of

1737
01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:16,320
Speaker 1: this like extreme form of like blame and abuse, and

1738
01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:22,479
Speaker 1: I did not make a dent. Aside from the fact

1739
01:39:22,479 --> 01:39:26,160
Speaker 1: that I felt bad that I couldn't help them, it

1740
01:39:26,360 --> 01:39:31,960
Speaker 1: was also really a toxic situation to be in. Like

1741
01:39:32,400 --> 01:39:37,920
Speaker 1: the sessions were just awful for me. So that was

1742
01:39:37,960 --> 01:39:38,639
Speaker 1: probably the worst.

1743
01:39:39,320 --> 01:39:41,160
Speaker 2: And they didn't they stayed together, or.

1744
01:39:41,520 --> 01:39:44,439
Speaker 1: They actually stayed together they did. I mean, I think

1745
01:39:44,560 --> 01:39:48,479
Speaker 1: the work eventually did help them to some degree, but

1746
01:39:50,040 --> 01:39:50,679
Speaker 1: it was awful.

1747
01:39:51,360 --> 01:39:54,759
Speaker 2: When do you know divorce is the right choice?

1748
01:39:55,439 --> 01:39:58,479
Speaker 1: With that couple, I thought divorce was the right choice,

1749
01:39:58,640 --> 01:40:02,720
Speaker 1: and they chose not to. I just couldn't imagine why

1750
01:40:04,120 --> 01:40:09,120
Speaker 1: would a family keep going with that level of toxicity.

1751
01:40:10,920 --> 01:40:13,800
Speaker 1: I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But they chose to

1752
01:40:13,840 --> 01:40:16,400
Speaker 1: stay together. And that's I mean, people live the way

1753
01:40:16,439 --> 01:40:17,040
Speaker 1: they want to live.

1754
01:40:17,080 --> 01:40:17,560
Speaker 2: What can I do?

1755
01:40:18,240 --> 01:40:20,439
Speaker 1: But that would have been a situation where I would

1756
01:40:20,479 --> 01:40:24,439
Speaker 1: say that the pain of divorce is worth it, because

1757
01:40:25,160 --> 01:40:27,120
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a good idea to live in

1758
01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:32,360
Speaker 1: that kind of abusive, blamey environment, day in, day out.

1759
01:40:33,640 --> 01:40:38,800
Speaker 1: Another difficult situation was a couple that I cared about

1760
01:40:38,960 --> 01:40:43,679
Speaker 1: deeply and I really really understood them. It was an abuse,

1761
01:40:43,760 --> 01:40:48,879
Speaker 1: but they couldn't They couldn't stop repeating a certain pattern

1762
01:40:49,000 --> 01:40:55,200
Speaker 1: that was a direct replay of each of their childhood traumas.

1763
01:40:55,760 --> 01:40:59,480
Speaker 1: It was an abuse. It was just like issues around abandonment,

1764
01:41:00,240 --> 01:41:05,920
Speaker 1: and that was very hard. The common denominator is situations

1765
01:41:05,960 --> 01:41:09,280
Speaker 1: where I'm doing my best and I can't affect change.

1766
01:41:10,000 --> 01:41:10,479
Speaker 1: That's hard.

1767
01:41:11,040 --> 01:41:11,800
Speaker 2: How do you deal with that?

1768
01:41:12,680 --> 01:41:17,040
Speaker 1: I try hard. I'm like relentless. I mean, I will

1769
01:41:17,160 --> 01:41:20,840
Speaker 1: work with couples. I will sweat, i will put my

1770
01:41:20,960 --> 01:41:25,840
Speaker 1: heart into it. I'll think about it later, I'll read,

1771
01:41:26,040 --> 01:41:31,080
Speaker 1: I'll talk to colleagues. I try. I'm like, if I

1772
01:41:31,160 --> 01:41:34,640
Speaker 1: take on a couple, I'm like in it. But ultimately,

1773
01:41:34,920 --> 01:41:37,960
Speaker 1: you know, stay in your own lane. People are going

1774
01:41:38,080 --> 01:41:40,400
Speaker 1: to live their life. I'll bring the horse to the

1775
01:41:40,479 --> 01:41:45,560
Speaker 1: water if they repeatedly won't drink, it's I've got my

1776
01:41:45,680 --> 01:41:46,240
Speaker 1: life to live.

1777
01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:50,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Fifth and final question. If you could create one

1778
01:41:51,000 --> 01:41:53,720
Speaker 2: law that everyone in the world had to follow, what

1779
01:41:53,800 --> 01:41:54,200
Speaker 2: would it be?

1780
01:42:00,120 --> 01:42:05,439
Speaker 1: Gay? Do no harm, Do no harm?

1781
01:42:06,520 --> 01:42:10,280
Speaker 2: Beautiful? Yeah, Ernan, Thank you so much.

1782
01:42:10,640 --> 01:42:11,439
Speaker 1: Thank you Jay.

1783
01:42:11,880 --> 01:42:14,360
Speaker 2: If you love this episode, you're going to love my

1784
01:42:14,520 --> 01:42:17,880
Speaker 2: conversation with Matthew Hussey on how to get over your

1785
01:42:17,960 --> 01:42:21,679
Speaker 2: ex and find true love in your relationships. People should

1786
01:42:21,680 --> 01:42:25,920
Speaker 2: be compassionate to themselves that extend that compassion to your

1787
01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:30,120
Speaker 2: future self, because truly extending your compassion to your future

1788
01:42:30,200 --> 01:42:32,960
Speaker 2: self is doing something that gives him or her a

1789
01:42:33,120 --> 01:42:35,000
Speaker 2: shot at a happy and a peaceful life.