WEBVTT - From the Vault: Toy Guns 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:08.479 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. This is 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.880 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. In today's episode is 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:14.239 from the vault. It is an episode that we did 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.680 last year on toy Guns. Originally published December twenty two. 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:21.799 All right, well, let's unwrap it and uh and have 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:27.440 a go at it. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:36.760 production of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:39.479 Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:41.559 Joe McCormick. And Rob I've got a question for you 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:44.960 to start off with today. I want to know if you, 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.360 as a child had a toy that I also had. 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:51.519 I think it was really common and I got it 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:55.080 for Christmas one year, I remember, and what it was 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:59.680 was a a plastic alien pistol that when you pulled 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:02.880 the trigger, it would play one of a sequence of 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:07.000 like five different sequences of sound effects. So the first 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:08.520 one would go like do you do? You do you do? 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:11.560 And then the next one would go what what? And 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.600 the next one would be like I've got that kind 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.759 of memorized in my brain. Uh. And in the version 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:20.679 that I had, there was like a little red and blue, 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:24.639 clear plastic case over some led lights that would shoot 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:27.360 back and forth when you fired the gun. Do you 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:29.200 know what I'm talking about? I don't know what the 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:30.920 name of this thing is, so I don't know how 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:33.720 to look it up. I I don't think I had 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.000 the exact one you had, but I must have had 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:38.319 like an earlier model, because I had one that was 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.920 black and red and it did the exact same sound 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:44.080 effects you're discussing here, So I feel like it had 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:47.840 to have been the same tech in just a different color, 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:52.280 or like a slightly different plastic toy gun. Now, there 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:54.600 was one thing I liked about this toy gun, which 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:56.960 was that every time you pull the trigger, it would 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:00.520 make a different sound effect, which means that it was 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:03.440 almost like you could imagine that you had like one 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.880 of the Stormtrooper blasters from the very beginning of Star Wars, 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.000 where you have multiple settings. You can set, I guess 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:12.320 for the regular blast, and then you can set for stun. 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:15.920 Except the problem was you couldn't toggle the sound effects 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:17.760 on this thing. They just win in a sequence, So 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.399 if you wanted to get one sound effect in particular, 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:22.480 you'd have to pull the trigger a certain number of 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:25.440 times to like run through the cycle and get back there. 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:29.200 I think part of that is the toy designers focus 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:32.399 on tormenting the parents, because I've noticed this in contemporary 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:36.079 toys as well. Um, where my son has a few 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.000 different lightsabers, and one of the ones he has it 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:42.959 seems to at random either do lightsaber noises or play 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:47.120 part of the Star Wars theme. But it seems entirely unpredictable, 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.240 so if the batteries are in, if the device is on, 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:53.480 and it seems also confusing about if it's toggled on 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:58.000 or not, like you're never sure, um, yeah, you it's 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.000 apparent listening in from the next room over, you don't 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:03.280 know what to expect. It just keeps you completely on edge. 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:05.760 I think if you want to calibrate a sound effects 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:10.080 toy for maximum parental torment, you should somewhat randomize the 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:12.240 sounds that come out and the sequence at which they 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:16.120 come out, because that we know that randomized rewards they 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:19.239 tend to create more addictive effects. The child will make 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:22.120 the sound effects more often for longer durations, and the 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:25.919 parents will slowly lose their minds. And of course it's 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.280 also written in a in a way ridiculous because when 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.120 we were kids, but also kids today perfectly capable of 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:35.560 creating their own sound effects. You don't need the toy 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:38.000 regun to go, Pu pu, you don't need the lightsaber 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:41.080 to go because we can do those sound effects. We 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:43.640 do them all the time. Um. In fact, I think 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:45.680 I read that that they had to get onto you 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:49.160 and McGregor in filming the prequel films because he kept 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:53.280 making those sounds with his mouth during the lightsaber battles. Yeah. 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:55.200 I read that somewhere. I don't know if that's true, 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:59.880 but it's it's it's wonderful either way. So he was like, anaka, 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:04.560 I have the high ground. M yep, I think so. 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:07.960 But I guess this all comes up because today you 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:10.560 wanted to talk about toy guns, which I thought was 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:13.240 a very interesting topic. Yeah. And in a way, this 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:16.000 is a holiday episode because the holidays are about toys 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:18.880 under the trees, right, and the holidays at their best 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:22.760 or about imaginative escapes, and um, you know, I know 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.320 in my own experience raising an eight year old, it's 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:30.720 it's proven impossible to ignore the specter of the gun. Um. 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.560 You know, it's it's everywhere it was in it was 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.400 you know, in our upbringing. So I thought it would 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:38.560 be good to look at some of the sort of 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:42.520 broad studies and meta analyzes that that look at the 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:45.799 idea of toy guns, because I mean, first and foremost, 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.279 we have to recognize that that actual guns are lethal 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.760 instruments designed to kill animals and or humans, depending on 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.919 their exact design. Now, gun ownership itself is obviously a 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.760 divisive topic, and one can spend a lot of time 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:02.200 discussing objections to the legal use of such weapons, and 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:04.320 there's there's too much here for us to get into 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:06.520 in this episode, but I think we can mostly agree 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:10.320 that improper use and misuse of firearms is to be avoided, 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.360 and in very broad strokes, I'm thinking about guns used 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:16.440 in homicides and suicides, guns used in mass shootings and 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:21.520 accidental deaths involving firearms, especially those involving children. Right, And 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.880 of course, the the obvious implication there is that children 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.320 should not be playing with real guns, even though there's 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:32.320 clearly a desire among many children to enact types of 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:36.599 play that involve guns or involve surrogates for guns. So 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:40.200 so there's sort of a natural accommodation that happens there. 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:42.760 It's like well, kids wanna want to pretend to play 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:45.719 with guns. Obviously they should not be seeking out and 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:49.799 handling real guns, So give them plastic toy guns. Yeah, 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.240 and of course, especially nowadays, But but I mean this 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:55.680 was also president in the minds of parents in the 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:57.920 past too. You know, we ask ourselves, are we doing 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.120 the right thing? Should they have toy guns? Should we 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.839 take all the toy guns away? Um, there's so many 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:05.600 questions that emerge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I I wonder about 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:08.640 this question myself. I mean I can. I can very 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:11.000 much see both sides of it. I mean, on one hand, 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.479 I feel like, well, I mean, you know, conflict play 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:17.240 is a normal type of imaginative play. Uh. One of 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.240 the most common types of conflict that children are going 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:22.800 to imagine given the world we live in, is conflict 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.679 with guns. So they will want to act that out 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:27.880 and in a way that just seems like part of 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:30.360 childhood development. But then on the other hand, like if 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:32.920 you watch a child, like, you know, running around pretending 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:35.440 to shoot each other, You're like, oh my god, no, 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:40.360 something horrible is happening here. This can't be allowed. Yeah. Yeah, 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:42.800 it gets increasingly complex the more you think about it. 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:45.760 You know, because especially since you're dealing in different worlds, 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:49.080 you know, generally speaking, like the child's world and their 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:52.880 exposure to guns is almost entirely within this realm of fantasy, 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:56.400 you know, if you know, if if you're fortunate and uh, 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.760 and adults live in a broader world of understanding about 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.200 what guns are and what they can do, and you 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:04.520 don't want to just grab them and pull them completely 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:07.560 into your bubble. But but then also the question is 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.480 what should I leave them over there and their bubble, Like, yeah, 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:14.200 it becomes this this this labyrinth, this maze that you 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.200 try and figure your way out of. So this is 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.840 what we're gonna basically be talking about in today's episode. 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.000 But before we go go further, I thought it might 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:24.000 be helpful to go ahead and throw out some stats 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:27.760 and some numbers, um, just to um, you know, underlie 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:32.680 the conversation here. So, according to the CDC stats for eighteen, 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:36.120 the most recently made available as of this recording, at 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:39.440 the tail end of the United States saw thirty eight 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:44.400 thousand three deaths from firearm violence in and that accounted 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:51.840 for homicides and suicides UH those involved firearms. Additionally, Americans 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:54.040 are ten times more likely to be killed by guns 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.240 than people in other developed countries. According to a two 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:59.280 thousand sixteen study published in the American Journal of Medicine, 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:03.239 gun purchases surged over the summer in as did incidents 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.680 of gun violence we face. And on top of that, 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.960 of course, we faced increased awareness of police violence against minorities. 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:11.880 And as Craig Jackson pointed out on the conversation, despite 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:15.040 lockdown measures in the US, mass shootings in the US 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:18.560 sharply rows. As of November twenty six, I believe there 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:21.240 were five d seventy eight mass shootings in the country, 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.440 already ahead of the total four hundred seventeen from the 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:27.560 year before. So we have to face the fact that 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.440 if our children are going to be running around pretending 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:32.680 to play with guns, you're holding that in your head 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.440 with the reality of all the terrible things that guns 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:37.719 can do and have been used to do, even just 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.840 in in recent memory. Yeah, I mean, as as a parent, 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:44.240 it is it is at once terrifying and then terrifyingly 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.640 commonplace to get that that robot call from your school 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:50.680 telling you that the school has been locked down because 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:54.360 of an incident in the surrounding area, but that everything 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:56.800 is cool, and you're you know it, it's it's shocking, 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:58.480 and then you're like, oh, everything's okay, And then you 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:00.800 you ask yourself, should I feel okay about this? Because 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:03.480 I feel like I shouldn't. But anyways, as far as 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:05.760 children and guns go, some more stats here. At two 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.640 thousand sixteen study published in the New England Journal of 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.439 Medicine found that death by gunshot with the second highest 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:14.400 cause of death in the United States and sixteen among 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:18.240 children and adolescents ages one through nineteen. Firearms were the 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:20.559 second leading cause of death in two thousand fourteen for 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.280 American children between ages of one and nineteen, an average 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:26.000 of eight kids shot per day um if you average 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:30.000 that out over the calendar year. And then also saw 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:34.080 an uptick in unintentional shootings by children by in March 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:36.959 and April. And I believe commentators often, you know, link 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:38.880 that to the fact that suddenly children were at home 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:43.439 more and it gave them greater opportunity to come across 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.600 guns in the household. Uh And and of course that 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:50.040 opens up the door for misuse and accidental usage of 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:53.520 the weapon. I think sometimes people get the feeling when 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.920 when you're talking about things like certain like safety precautions 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:00.200 involving like gun storage, you know, should you keep a 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:04.240 gun stored in the homeloaded? And questions like that. Um, 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:09.120 It's it's strange how people can know what the risks 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:12.840 of certain things are but still think, Uh, those risks 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.920 only apply like statistically to people in general. And I 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.839 am not like people in general, So I'm okay like 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.120 that that I the same logic that holds true in 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:27.800 general for people and households won't apply to me or 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.680 to my household. You know, I don't need to worry 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.560 about that kind of stuff. Isn't it like weird how 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:36.240 we can think like that? Yeah? Yeah, And and plus 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.360 I think we also color our estimation of these numbers 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:41.600 based on our own experiences, and are you know the 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:44.560 limited nature of our experiences, you know? Like I? On 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:46.200 on one hand, I can lie, I can look back 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:48.840 at my own past and say, well, uh, you know, 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:51.280 I grew up with guns in the household, and and 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:54.160 I didn't, you know, have an accident with a gun. 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:55.960 I didn't. I don't. I never loaded a gun on 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.120 my own or anything like that. I I don't think 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.440 I knew any growing up that was engaged in a 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:06.120 firearm related accident or the accidental discharge of a fire 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.120 firearm in the house. But but then again, that's just 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:13.679 my limited experience, you know, and you know, and then rationally, 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:17.400 I'm not willing to to to roll the dice for 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:20.440 my own child based on what I experienced, you know, right, 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:23.480 I mean, but there is definitely a natural tendency to 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.960 sort of think of yourself as an exception to whatever 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:30.440 the statistical rule is, and to elevate the importance of 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.160 anecdotes in your own life over the you know what 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:37.400 the risks actually are exactly. Yeah, So as far as 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:39.240 the stats go, we could we could keep going on 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.240 and on about this and torturing the numbers, but and 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:44.440 there're ultimately number of different directions one could go into 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:47.679 discussing these numbers, the causes, the possible solutions. But one 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.080 question that always comes up, sometimes in good faith, sometimes 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:54.600 as a distraction is what about guns in childhood play? 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:56.760 And and one of the reasons, again, like we've been 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:59.320 discussing that this is so um, you know, there's something 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:01.840 we end up meditating on so much is that, you know, 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.079 I found that guns and media and subsequently in play 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:08.400 are almost impossible to avoid because while you can curate 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.040 what your kids watch and and ultimately this is even 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:13.439 harder than I expected it to be, they're still going 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:15.720 to interact with other kids, and there's always going to 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:18.080 be a kid on the playground that turns a stick 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:20.000 into a weapon, turns a stick into a gun or 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.000 a sword or spear or what have you, but very 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:23.600 often a gun. And even if they don't have access 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:27.840 to sticks, they can make the finger guns and blast away. Right. Yeah, again, 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.360 I think this comes down to like this difficult question 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:34.199 that people have over like how much is it reasonable 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:38.520 to try to control your child's experience of the world. Um, like, 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:40.959 you're always going to be balancing that. I mean when 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.160 you talked about media for some reason, the thing that 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.240 immediately popped into my head is like what happens once 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:49.600 a child discovers YouTube? Like how do you do you 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.679 just like set a child loose on YouTube? Or like 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.520 how do if if not, how do you prevent that 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:59.320 from happening? Uh? I don't you know, it just seems 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.400 like it's it's mind boggling to me. Yeah, yeah, it is. 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:04.280 You know, what we have We can certainly go on 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:08.080 about about that that topic as well. But but of 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.719 course sorry that that's ancillarty your main point, which is 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:13.760 about play. Yeah, I mean, I think it's absolutely clear 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.200 probably everybody who's been around kids for any amount of 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.440 time or was once a child themselves, probably remembers or 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:23.640 has observed the natural emergence of violent and conflict play 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:27.480 among kids. It doesn't seem like something it's hard to 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:29.440 rule this out, but it doesn't seem like something that 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.800 like parents have to instruct their children how how to 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.400 do it. Seems like it just kind of comes naturally 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:37.839 out of the child brain that like we need to 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:42.080 enact some kind of imaginative violent conflict. Yeah, and then 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:45.840 the gun being an inevitable part of the conflict media, 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:48.600 they absorb, it just becomes a part of it, and 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.040 it's a you know, you can try and sort of 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.079 steer your children towards things like lightsabers and ninja turtles, 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:57.160 you know, but even in those genres, a lot of guns, 0:13:57.240 --> 0:13:59.160 you know, there's a lot there's there's those are very 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.480 ultimately very shooty properties as well. So you know, unless 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:04.760 you you know, just want your your you're just gonna 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.360 feed your kid pop patrol over and over again and 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:09.599 never let them move on to something else. Yeah, what 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.240 do you do? It's funny how many of these properties 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:17.080 I can think of several offhand. You know, Batman, uh, 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.840 Star Wars whatever, have this sort of moral hierarchy of 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:25.880 weapons selection where the most morally virtuous characters never use guns. 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.520 They will use like hand to hand combat. They do 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:33.040 still use weapons of various types, lightsabers and all that. 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:36.520 But then as you go down the the hierarchy, down 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.400 the ladder of moral virtue into more ambiguous and then 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:44.280 ultimately evil characters, the propensity for firearms and firearm analogs 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:47.640 gets higher and higher. Yeah, that is interesting, and and 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.800 I I suppose I like that. There may be problems 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:52.440 with it if I an analyze it too much, but 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.280 on the surface, I like that that I that idea 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.240 that the lightsaber is the civilized weapon and the blaster 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.560 is the uncivilized weapon. So I guess, I guess it's 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:05.080 complicated there because also the Sith Lords primarily use lightsabers, 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:08.280 like the most evil of the most evil, also as 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:11.000 shoe blasters, and and we'll only you know, you can 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.600 do a lot of damage with the lightsaber. You can 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.360 be a bad guy with just a laser sword. Yeah, 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:18.720 I have reservations at times when I am ambushed by 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:20.920 my my son with a lightsaber because even though I'm 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:23.200 not being you know, shot at in the allway, you know, 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:25.880 he is trying to dismember me. So but it's dismemberment 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:29.800 that comes from a place of love. Yeah, yeah, um, 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:31.760 And you know, well, I think we'll actually come back 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.200 to to some of that in a bit here, but 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:36.520 but let's go ahead and talk about just the topic 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.560 of aggressive play because that's, you know, very broadly what 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:43.680 we're talking about here. Um, you know, getting out of 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:46.280 the media portion of this and getting more into like 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.520 what children are doing when they're engaging with their toys 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.840 and each other in their imagination. As Jeffrey Goldstein of 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:55.080 the University of you Trek and the Netherlands pointed out 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.840 in Aggressive Toy Play published in and the Future of 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:04.640 Play Theory, aggressive play includes mock fighting, general rough housing, 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.760 and fantasy aggression, and we can further think of imaginary 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:12.640 battles and war toys as being part of war play. 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:16.960 Part quote. Aggressive toys and war toys are those that 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.400 children use in play fighting and fantasy aggression, including but 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:24.840 not limited to, toys that resemble weapons, and naturally this 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:27.760 covers a great deal of territory. You know an old 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:31.440 timey you know, silver toy, cowboy pistol. You know that 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:34.560 there's a there's a weapon, uh toy, a bright orange 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:36.800 ray gun that looks like nothing you would actually use 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.520 in a real world combat scenario. Same case a tiny 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.520 blaster and a Lego mini mini figures hand yep that 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:46.080 applies Lego blocks formed roughly into the shape of a gun. 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:49.600 The same thing, a stick, finger guns, you name it. 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.080 All of that kind of falls under the same uh 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.360 loose category here, So basically like most of the toys 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:58.160 I remember having as a kid. That may be overstating it, 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:01.240 but it is weird. Also the I wonder how much 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:04.320 of this has changed generationally. I'm sure people were having 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.240 this debate when we were kids, But I just remember 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:11.320 having lots and lots of explicit weapon and even gun 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:13.800 toys as a child, and all my friends having the 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:18.040 same stuff. Yeah, and I remember making guns like I 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.640 would watch like a James Bond film and I think 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:23.199 it was what from Russia with Love? And there's the 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:24.760 whole thing he has like a rifle that folds up 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.159 in a suitcase so I somehow got my hands on 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:29.800 an old suitcase and I had like a pipe that 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.520 I had in there, and like some sort of capsule 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:35.760 that I was pretending was the the bullet. You know. Um, 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:38.439 it's just it was so so easy to get excited 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.960 about those things. Well, I think you you should be 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:43.480 proud of any child who shows ingenuity of that kind. 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:46.960 What did you also make yourself a like a Robert 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:51.159 Shaw garatte wire. Oh yeah, that that suitcase had so 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.359 many interesting bits of spycraft in it. But um, I 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.080 can't remember what all I had in it. You know, 0:17:56.240 --> 0:18:00.199 it was it was the imagination was like it. So 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:04.439 it wasn't too impressive. Okay. Now, generally speaking, studies have 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:07.639 shown and continue to show that that boys display more 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:11.480 aggressive play than girls and their various theorized reasons here. 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:14.080 But it doesn't mean that it's only boys by any stretch. 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:18.880 The sex differences, though, seem to have been observed across cultures. Uh. Now, 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:23.360 given you know, the cultural landscape of everything, I imagine 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.159 this is an area where we're going to continue to 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:27.680 see analysis of where we are with this and where 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:30.199 we're going with this. Uh, you know, because there were 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.760 a number of of sort of loose ends I could 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:36.800 have gone after when I was looking at this, and 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:39.520 originally like, there's a whole thing about like gender marketing 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:43.479 in uh gun weapons, you know, particularly like in nerve toys. 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:47.120 So there's a lot to consider just in this category 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:48.639 as well. But these seem to be the trends that 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:50.840 have played out over time, and these are the trends 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:53.560 that are often, uh at least brought up in any 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:58.640 kind of study regarding aggressive play and gun play among children. Yeah, 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:00.679 it seems pretty clear that that us of play is 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:03.960 uh present regardless of gender, but it's more common in 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:08.800 boys now. Goldstein pointed out that warplay usually begins around 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.440 age two and occurs once a week with at least 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:13.840 a couple of other kids. I love this detail because 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:16.080 I know what he's saying. But it also makes me 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:19.480 imagine like a child keeping a schedule and you're like, hey, 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:21.480 do you wanna do you want to watch a movie 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.440 this Wednesday? As I'm sorry, I got warplay. Um, you know, 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.600 Keith and Toby are are are already uh yes, is 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:30.719 for that, so I'm gonna have to pass. I like that, 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.320 and it also makes me think of, um remembering back 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:39.520 to my own childhood, how thin sometimes the boundary was 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:44.679 between something that was explicitly war or violence play and 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:49.600 something that was a thinly disguised or leaky surrogate for 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:52.919 war violence play, some kind of game that was like 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:56.439 almost a war, that would you'd easily sort of like 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:58.840 slip into it being a violent war, do you know 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.080 what I mean? Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean I think 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:03.960 one of the most you know, obvious examples is of 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:07.119 course sports itself. I mean, you know, several times away, 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:09.120 like what every day you would go to pe class, 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:11.800 and you know, maybe you're square dancing or doing that 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:14.440 thing with the with the parachute where you dance around 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:16.680 in circles with it. But a lot of times you're 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.920 playing games, sports games, and those are essentially wars. Those 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:23.840 are wars that are that are carried out in a 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:27.720 mostly non violent way with some rule limitations, but they 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:31.840 kind of fulfill the same um role that warfare plays um. 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:33.600 And then you know, on on top of that, you've 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:35.920 got all sorts of things, all sorts of games. I mean, 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:37.920 you could, if you really wanted to stretch things, you 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:40.000 could say a game of cards as a war. I mean, 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:43.000 any kind of competition, right, Yeah, and but I mean 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:45.760 in a in a closer literal sense. I mean, I 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.120 remember a lot of the games we came up with 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:50.280 as a child, when you're not playing like a pre 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.199 created game that has its own rules and all that 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:55.440 external to you, but you're doing some kind of Calvin 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:57.600 ball thing when kids do all the time that you 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:00.119 come up with some original game in your head and 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.280 you play with your friends. A lot of those games 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:06.320 I recall, we're basically just like half a step removed 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:08.760 from being a cage match. You know. It's like it's 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:11.479 a game that maybe involves a ball or you know, 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.240 some kind of abstract item or rules in some way, 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:19.560 but it could easily just devolve into a battle royale. Yeah. Well, 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:21.440 I guess part of it is when you see kids play, 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:22.960 a lot of it comes down to this sort of 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:26.240 improv that they're doing. They're all bringing a certain energy 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:28.959 and certain ideas to what they're playing and how they're playing, 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:32.119 and so you know, the right combination of kids might 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:35.040 be just concerned with building a house for a mouse 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:38.160 or doing an archaeological dig in the dirt. But then 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:40.119 there's gonna be a kid that comes up and is 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:41.960 gonna bring the finger gun and you know, kind of 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:45.560 like a Michael Scott in the office in every improv 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:49.200 scene pretends to have a gun. Well, that scene in 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:52.240 the office highlights a great thing about about play, actually, 0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:55.240 which is that you know, occasionally in an improv scene, 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:57.160 if somebody were to bring a gun into the scene, 0:21:57.200 --> 0:21:59.439 that would be fun and interesting and it would liven 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:01.600 things up. Know what are we gonna do now? But 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:04.680 the problem comes because he introduces a gun into every 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.800 improv skit. And I think the same thing could probably 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:10.199 be said of play, Like, you know, it's normal for 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:14.320 children to enact is imaginative conflict play, but when when 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:18.439 some kid wants to turn everything into an imagined violent conflict, 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:21.720 then it's like, Okay, that's not fun anymore. Yeah, yeah, 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:24.360 And then I don't remember if it was explicitly stated 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:27.000 or if it was even implied, but I looking back 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:28.639 on it, I kind of feel like it was the 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:32.240 same gun scenario that he would bring, which also ties 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:34.320 into some of the points that are are made in 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:36.960 one of the sources we looked at for this episode. 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:45.240 So anyway, the big question here is not whether kids 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:48.320 engage in aggressive play, because they do, but it's rather 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:51.000 about what is it for and indeed, if it actually 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:54.800 leads to more aggressive behavior and golds Steam points to 0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:57.480 a trio of studies from the ninety nineties that that 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:01.320 indicate that war games and video games with violent themes 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:05.320 increase the frequency and duration of aggressive play. But the 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:08.880 connection to actually aggressive behavior that that's a different story 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:11.520 that's ultimately a lot more complicated. Yeah, I guess this 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:13.479 is the big question that a lot of parents are 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:16.760 probably worried about, Like if they watched their kids doing 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:19.800 doing aggressive play that what they're worried about often is 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:22.840 does this mean my child is going to grow up 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:26.159 to be a violent person. Yeah, And we may think 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:29.119 about this sometimes as adults when we play our video 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:32.480 games and and whatnot, especially if you're playing a game 0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:35.640 that actually gives you like a kill count, which could 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:37.320 be a little sobering at times, and you're like, oh 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:40.679 my god, I sure did pretend shoot a lot of people? 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:43.600 Am I? Okay? So anyway, that that's a whole area 0:23:43.640 --> 0:23:45.639 we'll have to consider coming back to in the future. 0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:48.200 But uh, I've got a good place to go from 0:23:48.240 --> 0:23:51.760 here would be to travel back to nine seven and 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:57.240 consider something that we know as the weapons effect. So 0:23:57.440 --> 0:24:01.320 back in sixty seven, American social psychologist Leonard Berkowitz and 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:05.880 co author Anthony Lapage conducted a randomized study using male 0:24:06.000 --> 0:24:10.320 college students. Now, each test involved two participants, but one 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:13.760 of these participants was always a secret accompliments accomplice of 0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:18.720 the testers. So you only really have one random individual one, 0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:21.680 you know, the purer college student that's in here and 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:25.240 is being tested. The other person is just is actually 0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:27.399 a part of the study but pretending to be a 0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:31.640 test subject. So the subject in the accomplice would take 0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:35.360 turns engaging in a mundane task such as the example 0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:38.120 of that that I saw listed was uh, listing ideas 0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:43.720 to help sell used cars, and the first point a 0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:46.399 gun at the buyer. No, no, no, the gun. The 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:49.919 gun comes in later. But but so the the actual 0:24:49.920 --> 0:24:51.760 assignment here has nothing to do with guns. It's just 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:55.840 something mundane and you know, and ultimately I think non violent. 0:24:56.640 --> 0:25:00.440 So first, the accomplice gives the subject feedback on their work, 0:25:00.760 --> 0:25:04.160 and they give this feedback with between zero and ten 0:25:04.320 --> 0:25:10.919 small electric shocks. Okay, okay, so that's again that's the 0:25:11.000 --> 0:25:15.000 fake test subject shocking the actual test subject. But then 0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:18.960 it's the actual test subjects turn to shock back. Uh 0:25:19.000 --> 0:25:22.200 so this was the basic test for regression. How many 0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:25.639 shocks would they retaliate with, how aggressive would they be? 0:25:27.760 --> 0:25:31.680 And here's where the weapon came into play. Sometimes there 0:25:31.720 --> 0:25:33.480 was a gun or guns on the table. I believe 0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:36.600 it was a shotgun and a revolver um. And in 0:25:36.640 --> 0:25:39.680 other cases they would have a badminton racket and some shuttlecocks. 0:25:39.880 --> 0:25:41.520 And there was also a control group that had no 0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:44.680 items on the table at all. The actual subjects were 0:25:44.720 --> 0:25:47.360 told that these were just part of another study and 0:25:47.560 --> 0:25:51.960 we're just items to be ignored, which of course sounds 0:25:52.000 --> 0:25:55.879 kind of comical in and of itself. Um but but but, 0:25:55.920 --> 0:25:58.280 I mean the big thing is, it's impossible to ignore 0:25:58.280 --> 0:26:00.640 those weapons, right, I mean, there's a there's it's it's 0:26:00.680 --> 0:26:03.439 kind of impossible to ignore anything that is there on 0:26:03.480 --> 0:26:06.720 the table, like the shuttle cocks and the badminton racket, 0:26:06.720 --> 0:26:09.480 but especially the pistol and the shotgun. It's kind of 0:26:09.480 --> 0:26:12.080 reminds me of in Madmen were for a long time, 0:26:12.119 --> 0:26:15.120 Pete Campbell just carries a rifle around the office and 0:26:15.840 --> 0:26:17.800 no one seems to think it's that big a deal. 0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:22.199 Oh man, I can forgot about that episode, but it 0:26:22.240 --> 0:26:27.359 comes up in several episodes. It's like a fixture. Huh. So, 0:26:27.400 --> 0:26:30.240 as you can imagine the idea, here is what happens. 0:26:30.280 --> 0:26:33.880 How does just the mere sight of weapons, the mere 0:26:33.920 --> 0:26:36.760 sight of some guns, how does that affect uh, the 0:26:36.800 --> 0:26:40.479 individual's aggressive response? And so this is this is what 0:26:40.520 --> 0:26:44.240 the results were. Provoked participants who saw the guns were 0:26:44.320 --> 0:26:47.920 more aggressive than the other participants, and the authors called 0:26:47.920 --> 0:26:50.360 this the weapons effect, and they argued that it meant 0:26:50.400 --> 0:26:52.840 that the mere sight of a gun made us more aggressive, 0:26:53.160 --> 0:26:56.679 not more aggressive without provocation, minds you, and certainly not 0:26:56.800 --> 0:26:59.040 so provoked that they say, grab the gun or anything 0:26:59.080 --> 0:27:02.080 like that, but more were aggressive within the boundaries of 0:27:02.200 --> 0:27:05.399 the study parameters. Okay, so what they're claiming is to 0:27:05.480 --> 0:27:07.560 have found that when you see the gun, it's not 0:27:07.640 --> 0:27:10.199 that you pick up the gun and kill somebody with it, 0:27:10.240 --> 0:27:11.760 but when you see the gun, it's going to make 0:27:11.840 --> 0:27:15.880 you make your shape, your cognition to give more shocks 0:27:15.920 --> 0:27:18.880 to this other guy and to be more vengeful. Right, 0:27:18.920 --> 0:27:20.359 And you know, this kind of lines up with a 0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:22.760 lot of studies that we've that have been conducted in 0:27:22.800 --> 0:27:24.840 something we've looked at in the past about just how 0:27:25.960 --> 0:27:29.320 random or even you know, not so random things in 0:27:29.359 --> 0:27:32.920 our environment, symbols, etcetera can affect the way that we 0:27:33.040 --> 0:27:36.560 think and behave, you know, be it religious iconography, or 0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:39.720 eyes staring at us from something. You know that that 0:27:39.840 --> 0:27:41.879 all all of these things, all all of this is 0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:46.960 stimuli that can affect the manifestation of the mind. Oh yeah, 0:27:47.000 --> 0:27:49.480 So if, for example, you take that study that found 0:27:49.520 --> 0:27:52.640 that people might be more generous in putting money into 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:55.160 like a collection box if there are some eyes painted 0:27:55.200 --> 0:27:58.080 on it, or or less likely to steal money from 0:27:58.080 --> 0:28:00.080 it if there's some eyes painted on it, what's the 0:28:00.119 --> 0:28:04.240 effect if there's just a gun sitting beside it? Yeah, 0:28:04.480 --> 0:28:06.720 or the collection play, Yeah, has a gun? Like what 0:28:06.800 --> 0:28:11.640 if the what if the Santa that is collecting coins 0:28:11.640 --> 0:28:13.960 with the bell, what if he also is packing a 0:28:14.040 --> 0:28:16.480 heat I don't know, I don't know if you saw this, 0:28:16.560 --> 0:28:19.679 But actually the one of the authors here, Leonard Burkowitz, 0:28:19.760 --> 0:28:22.920 is associated with an anti metaboli that he used to 0:28:23.440 --> 0:28:27.200 communicate the results that he said he found here, and 0:28:27.240 --> 0:28:31.240 the anti metaboli was, yes, it's true that the finger 0:28:31.320 --> 0:28:36.160 pulls the trigger, but sometimes the trigger also pulls the finger. Yes, Yeah, 0:28:36.280 --> 0:28:38.040 that's that's a that's a big one, and that of 0:28:38.080 --> 0:28:40.720 course has been been echoed a lot, because as you 0:28:40.720 --> 0:28:44.080 can well imagine, um, this isn't there's an argument that 0:28:44.200 --> 0:28:47.120 definitely plays into the various discussions that have taken place 0:28:47.240 --> 0:28:53.360 over the subsequent decades regarding weapons in society. Now, I 0:28:53.480 --> 0:28:56.200 will say that one thing we know that this is 0:28:56.240 --> 0:28:59.000 basically going to be one example of a study on 0:28:59.120 --> 0:29:01.840 what's known as price aiming, right, the priming effects of 0:29:01.960 --> 0:29:05.800 like seeing objects and how that affects cognition. And there 0:29:05.840 --> 0:29:08.479 are a lot of questions about priming studies, I mean, UH, 0:29:08.800 --> 0:29:11.239 and some priming effects really do seem to hold up 0:29:11.320 --> 0:29:14.480 under subsequent testing. Some priming effects that people have found 0:29:15.000 --> 0:29:17.920 UH in studies of decades past have really been undermined 0:29:18.040 --> 0:29:22.080 by like failed replication attempts or later analyzes. So part 0:29:22.120 --> 0:29:25.440 of the question would be, how does this uh supposed 0:29:25.520 --> 0:29:29.000 priming effect discovered in the sixties hold up under scrutiny 0:29:29.080 --> 0:29:32.800 and under review of all the subsequent research. Yeah, exactly, 0:29:32.880 --> 0:29:35.840 because it's one thing for one study to observe this 0:29:36.160 --> 0:29:38.520 back in the late sixties, but how does it hold 0:29:38.600 --> 0:29:42.440 up over time and with different experiments, etcetera. So I 0:29:42.680 --> 0:29:47.280 was looking at effects of weapons on aggressive thoughts, angry feelings, 0:29:47.360 --> 0:29:51.680 hostile appraisals, and aggressive behavior. A meta analytic review of 0:29:51.760 --> 0:29:55.000 the weapons effect uh literature, And this was by Benjamin 0:29:55.120 --> 0:29:59.120 at all published in two thousand eighteen in the Personality 0:29:59.160 --> 0:30:02.800 and Social psycholo Gy Review. In it, as the title implies, 0:30:02.840 --> 0:30:05.400 the authors looked at various later experiments into the so 0:30:05.520 --> 0:30:08.760 called weapons effect. Uh. Yeah, because basically there have been 0:30:08.880 --> 0:30:13.040 numerous versions of this experiment over the last fifty three years. 0:30:13.480 --> 0:30:16.280 And this isn't even the first meta analysis all of them. 0:30:16.360 --> 0:30:19.200 It's just one of the it's either the most recent 0:30:19.280 --> 0:30:20.720 or the most recent one that turned up when I 0:30:20.800 --> 0:30:23.680 was looking around. But but these are the big takeaways 0:30:23.720 --> 0:30:27.400 that Benjamin at all Um put out there. First of all, 0:30:27.680 --> 0:30:31.959 weapons do appear to increase aggressive thoughts and hostile appraisals, 0:30:32.480 --> 0:30:36.719 although their effect on aggressive behavior is currently less clear. Uh. 0:30:37.160 --> 0:30:40.160 That's a that's a direct quote from the paper. But 0:30:40.240 --> 0:30:42.600 they also say that the relationship to that for the 0:30:42.640 --> 0:30:45.960 relationship to become more clear, we need quote higher powered 0:30:46.000 --> 0:30:52.280 studies with provocation manipulation. Provocation manipulation. The hairs on the 0:30:52.320 --> 0:30:54.360 back of my next stand up at those two words 0:30:55.640 --> 0:30:57.360 but yeah, So what they're saying is that when you 0:30:57.440 --> 0:30:59.600 look at all of these studies over the years and 0:30:59.720 --> 0:31:01.840 you do a meta analysis, meaning you sort of like 0:31:01.960 --> 0:31:05.560 average all the results together and look at them in total. Uh, 0:31:06.160 --> 0:31:10.000 it does seem pretty clear that the seeing weapons around 0:31:10.040 --> 0:31:13.760 the presence of weapons or weapon imagery, it makes people's 0:31:13.880 --> 0:31:19.640 thoughts more aggressive, and it increases people's tendency to perceive hostility, 0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:23.200 but there's not necessarily evidence that it makes them act 0:31:23.400 --> 0:31:27.080 more aggressive in an external way. Right. Yeah, It's an 0:31:27.120 --> 0:31:30.120 area whereas this is often the case, more more research 0:31:30.200 --> 0:31:33.240 is required. Yeah, And I gotta say I think this 0:31:33.440 --> 0:31:36.520 is one realm where a meta analysis is very important 0:31:36.920 --> 0:31:39.080 rather than just looking at one study here or there. 0:31:39.200 --> 0:31:41.600 Because I don't have any way to prove this, but 0:31:42.320 --> 0:31:45.760 I have a pretty strong gut feeling that, like guns, 0:31:45.840 --> 0:31:49.320 psychology research is an area of research where there are 0:31:49.360 --> 0:31:52.200 probably some people messing around in this field with some 0:31:52.360 --> 0:31:54.960 kind of political acts to grind one way or another, 0:31:55.080 --> 0:31:57.600 And so you probably could get some individual studies that 0:31:57.680 --> 0:32:01.440 are less objective than one would hope. Yeah. Yeah, And 0:32:01.560 --> 0:32:03.760 and likewise, there's plenty of room for cherry picking from 0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:06.520 these studies as well. Like if you don't like the 0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:08.640 idea of the weapons effect, then yeah, you can definitely 0:32:08.680 --> 0:32:11.680 find some some studies that fail to replicate it, right, 0:32:12.200 --> 0:32:15.160 uh And and meta analysis is helpful for multiple reasons. 0:32:15.360 --> 0:32:17.560 There was another thing that they looked into. One of 0:32:17.640 --> 0:32:21.880 the major factors tempering their findings here is a question 0:32:22.240 --> 0:32:25.320 of publication bias in the literature on the weapons effect. 0:32:25.400 --> 0:32:30.480 So I'll briefly explain what they called the naive meta analysis, 0:32:30.560 --> 0:32:33.320 which basically just means you average together all the results 0:32:33.400 --> 0:32:36.000 of the studies they looked at without doing any like 0:32:36.200 --> 0:32:39.560 correcting for potential biases and the results. You just take 0:32:39.600 --> 0:32:41.880 the results at face value and put them all together, 0:32:42.000 --> 0:32:44.560 look at them against one another, and see what you find. 0:32:44.840 --> 0:32:48.360 And they found that this naive mean definitely confirmed that 0:32:48.560 --> 0:32:53.800 merely quote, seeing a weapon can increase aggressive thoughts, hostile appraisals, 0:32:53.840 --> 0:32:57.920 and aggressive behavior. But they also ran a meta analysis 0:32:58.040 --> 0:33:02.719 using techniques that are designed to techt signs of publication bias. 0:33:03.120 --> 0:33:05.520 Publication bias, of course, is not a problem just with 0:33:05.680 --> 0:33:09.080 this subject. It's a major problem affecting the quality of 0:33:09.160 --> 0:33:11.760 all kinds of scientific literature, I think, especially in the 0:33:11.840 --> 0:33:15.720 social sciences. And it basically goes like this, Studies that 0:33:15.880 --> 0:33:19.600 find a significant result are more likely to be published 0:33:19.920 --> 0:33:23.280 than studies that test for something and find no evidence, 0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:26.600 also known as a null result. And this is actually 0:33:26.640 --> 0:33:30.280 a problem because it leads to biases in the existing literature. 0:33:30.840 --> 0:33:35.719 If Alice doesn't experiment and finds some interesting hypothesis is confirmed, 0:33:36.240 --> 0:33:39.920 and then Bob doesn't experiment that does not yield any 0:33:40.000 --> 0:33:43.160 kind of solid conclusion, and then Alice publishes and Bob 0:33:43.240 --> 0:33:46.440 does not this, and then this kind of keeps happening. 0:33:46.560 --> 0:33:49.160 This can give us an inaccurate picture when we try 0:33:49.240 --> 0:33:52.680 to run a meta analysis on the existing literature UH, 0:33:52.760 --> 0:33:56.640 and that this publication disparity could also potentially pressure researchers 0:33:56.760 --> 0:34:01.320 to UH perhaps unconsciously, probably unconsciously to the time, lean 0:34:01.560 --> 0:34:06.600 into UH study designs and manipulations that would try to 0:34:06.680 --> 0:34:10.360 get a significant result showing something something interesting that you 0:34:10.440 --> 0:34:13.120 can report apart from just saying like, yeah, we looked 0:34:13.160 --> 0:34:16.440 and we didn't find anything. And this is why it's 0:34:16.480 --> 0:34:21.280 important to publish and reward well executed studies that receive 0:34:21.360 --> 0:34:24.560 a null result. And I understand the difficulty with that, 0:34:24.719 --> 0:34:27.239 like I try to remember to mention them on the 0:34:27.280 --> 0:34:29.600 show when I come across them. But I admit it's 0:34:29.600 --> 0:34:32.759 a lot harder to make a good podcast talking about 0:34:32.800 --> 0:34:36.320 a bunch of studies that just didn't find anything interesting. So, 0:34:36.520 --> 0:34:39.560 you know, it's definitely something that modern science is struggling with. 0:34:39.719 --> 0:34:42.240 But it's also a good thing that researchers are aware 0:34:42.280 --> 0:34:44.359 of it, looking out for it and trying to come 0:34:44.440 --> 0:34:47.560 up with ways of detecting the bias when it occurs. 0:34:48.160 --> 0:34:51.600 But anyway, with regards to this particular literature, what what 0:34:51.800 --> 0:34:55.160 did the researchers find? How how does publication bias affect 0:34:55.200 --> 0:34:57.719 the weapons effect? Well, it looks like it does not 0:34:57.920 --> 0:35:01.520 erase it, but it does appear to reduce the magnitude 0:35:01.600 --> 0:35:04.120 of it and to affect some of the conditions in 0:35:04.200 --> 0:35:08.040 which it applies. So, to read from their discussion section quote, 0:35:08.920 --> 0:35:11.719 the naive meta analysis showed that the weapons effect is 0:35:11.800 --> 0:35:15.360 quite robust. It occurred inside and outside the lab for 0:35:15.480 --> 0:35:19.920 many different kinds of weapons e g. Guns, knives, spears, swords, 0:35:20.040 --> 0:35:24.480 hand grenades, for real and toy weapons, for males and females, 0:35:24.800 --> 0:35:27.759 for college students and non students, and for people of 0:35:27.840 --> 0:35:31.959 all ages, regardless of whether they were provoked. For some distributions, 0:35:32.040 --> 0:35:34.680 the weapons effect was also robust to the influence of 0:35:34.760 --> 0:35:39.160 publication bias and or outliers. Yet for other distributions, the 0:35:39.239 --> 0:35:42.960 weapons effect was not robust these phenomena. The results from 0:35:43.000 --> 0:35:46.200 the sensitivity analysis, and that's the the analysis they ran 0:35:46.320 --> 0:35:49.800 to look for publication bias, showed that a publication bias 0:35:49.920 --> 0:35:52.960 had a small to moderate impact on the cognitive and 0:35:53.080 --> 0:35:57.440 appraisal outcomes. Given the difficulty in triangulating around a likely 0:35:57.600 --> 0:36:00.800 true effect size for affective and behave of your outcomes 0:36:00.880 --> 0:36:05.400 for instance, we recommend interpreting their mean estimates with considerable caution. 0:36:06.520 --> 0:36:08.520 So as best I can tell from these results, it 0:36:08.600 --> 0:36:11.359 looks to me like the weapons effect is probably real 0:36:11.640 --> 0:36:14.400 on average with regards to cognition how it affects what 0:36:14.520 --> 0:36:17.759 we're thinking about, But the size of the effect maybe 0:36:17.800 --> 0:36:21.880 a good bit smaller than some studies have suggested. So 0:36:22.120 --> 0:36:24.719 so maybe a gun on the table makes your cognition 0:36:24.840 --> 0:36:29.760 a little more violent. Yeah, they also write that quote. Overall, 0:36:29.800 --> 0:36:32.560 the magnitude of the weapons effect may even be increasing 0:36:32.640 --> 0:36:34.759 over time, although that may be due to the fact 0:36:34.800 --> 0:36:37.600 that much of this research has focused on cognitive and 0:36:37.640 --> 0:36:42.279 appraisal outcomes since the nineties. That's a really interesting observation. 0:36:42.440 --> 0:36:44.360 So so there are a couple of things here. It 0:36:44.440 --> 0:36:47.080 could be an artifact of just how the studies have 0:36:47.280 --> 0:36:50.520 evolved in their methodology and things like that. But if 0:36:50.600 --> 0:36:52.920 that is real, I wonder what would explain that If 0:36:52.960 --> 0:36:56.480 there's actually a more cognitive priming from the presence of 0:36:56.560 --> 0:36:59.279 weapons now than there were like fifty years ago, what 0:36:59.360 --> 0:37:03.560 would that mean? Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure. Um, you know, 0:37:04.080 --> 0:37:07.239 ultimately in the paper they acknowledge that that, yes, technically, 0:37:07.360 --> 0:37:10.280 the the the adage is true, guns don't kill people. 0:37:10.440 --> 0:37:14.800 People kill people, But the research does indicate that guns 0:37:15.000 --> 0:37:18.879 are are not neutral stimuli. Right, So you can say, 0:37:18.920 --> 0:37:21.800 even even if it's not, even if the magnitude of 0:37:21.840 --> 0:37:24.319 the weapons effect is kind of in question, it does 0:37:24.400 --> 0:37:28.319 seem to be there these it's not neutral stimuli, right. 0:37:28.440 --> 0:37:30.239 And so I think this would be a counter to 0:37:30.280 --> 0:37:33.239 anybody who who wants to argue, like, oh, a gun 0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:36.360 is just a tool, you know, it's like whatever. No, 0:37:36.480 --> 0:37:38.120 I mean, like, if there's a gun in the room 0:37:38.200 --> 0:37:40.400 and people can see it, like their brains are going 0:37:40.440 --> 0:37:44.560 to start behaving somewhat differently, right, And And I think 0:37:44.640 --> 0:37:47.120 on on some level, I think most people realize that, 0:37:47.280 --> 0:37:49.279 like isn't that one of the reasons you have the 0:37:49.320 --> 0:37:51.520 gun on the wall right for people to see it, 0:37:52.280 --> 0:37:53.719 or in the back of the truck or what have you. 0:37:54.320 --> 0:37:57.200 But again, the extent of which weapons actually influenced aggressive 0:37:57.239 --> 0:38:01.799 behavior that remains debated and in need of further study. UM. 0:38:02.040 --> 0:38:05.360 I mentioned already that you can find some cases where, uh, 0:38:05.440 --> 0:38:08.680 they were not able to replicate the weapons effect in studies. Um. 0:38:09.080 --> 0:38:11.600 And then there there's some other interesting cases as well, 0:38:12.719 --> 0:38:15.880 study from Click and mcelreth that even turned up a 0:38:15.960 --> 0:38:19.239 reverse weapons effect, which at least suggests that there there's 0:38:19.239 --> 0:38:21.480 a lot more going on than an ABC sort of 0:38:21.560 --> 0:38:25.000 reaction to seeing a weapon. But it's also worth noting 0:38:25.080 --> 0:38:27.680 that it's pretty much impossible to fully conduct a real 0:38:27.760 --> 0:38:31.040 world test off the weapons effect, as it could potentially, 0:38:31.360 --> 0:38:35.480 you know, concern aggressive behavior. Uh, but it's it's still 0:38:35.480 --> 0:38:39.400 an official stopping point in considering such topics as gun control, 0:38:39.560 --> 0:38:43.160 violent media, and toy guns. Yeah, totally. I mean, I 0:38:43.280 --> 0:38:46.240 think this is a very interesting and fruitful realm of research. 0:38:46.320 --> 0:38:50.600 So yeah, more more on gun psychology. Absolutely, it certainly 0:38:50.680 --> 0:38:54.280 made me think more about how many you know, manifestations 0:38:54.320 --> 0:38:57.480 of a gun I encounter in just an average day, 0:38:58.120 --> 0:39:00.680 you know, like all my hobbies see too, in some 0:39:01.000 --> 0:39:03.680 at some level or another involve the gun. Like I'm 0:39:03.719 --> 0:39:06.680 painting these little miniatures, and and yeah, there's like I 0:39:06.760 --> 0:39:08.400 was just I was counting the other day while I 0:39:08.480 --> 0:39:10.160 was at my laptop. My painting stuff was on a 0:39:10.239 --> 0:39:14.440 tray next to my laptop, and I counted, like I think, uh, 0:39:15.360 --> 0:39:20.359 counting both physical models and illustrations and some instructions. There 0:39:20.400 --> 0:39:24.080 were like two lightsabers and something like fifteen total blaster weapons, 0:39:24.640 --> 0:39:27.160 you know. And then like if I'm playing a video game, 0:39:27.200 --> 0:39:29.600 there's often some sort of a blasting weapon or a gun. 0:39:29.800 --> 0:39:31.719 If I'm reading a book, there's often some sort of 0:39:31.800 --> 0:39:34.120 conflict at the heart of it. You know, it's often 0:39:34.160 --> 0:39:37.319 going to have laser guns or or some weapons gonna 0:39:37.360 --> 0:39:39.000 show up at some point or another. Or it's gonna 0:39:39.000 --> 0:39:42.160 be swords and whatnot, and even magic wands and wizard 0:39:42.239 --> 0:39:45.439 spells or ultimately some version of the weapon. Well, yeah, 0:39:45.440 --> 0:39:47.520 I mean this comes back to something I was talking 0:39:47.520 --> 0:39:49.520 about at the beginning, which is that when we let 0:39:49.600 --> 0:39:52.680 our imaginations run wild. I mean, when we play, whether 0:39:52.760 --> 0:39:55.360 that's as children or adults, and you know whatever the 0:39:55.640 --> 0:39:59.520 adult uh mental operations are that we call play. A 0:39:59.640 --> 0:40:02.040 lot of what we're gonna be doing is imagining potential 0:40:02.239 --> 0:40:05.760 or hypothetical conflicts, and those don't have to be violent conflicts. 0:40:05.800 --> 0:40:10.200 You sometimes people imagine arguments that people imagine, you know, 0:40:10.520 --> 0:40:13.760 political squabbles and all that. But almost every good story 0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:16.040 is about conflict of some kind, and one of the 0:40:16.160 --> 0:40:19.719 major types of conflict is violent, deadly conflict. Yeah, I 0:40:20.400 --> 0:40:22.400 just to drive this time. I'm recording in a closet 0:40:22.520 --> 0:40:26.160 as usual, and I just counted eleven weapons uh on 0:40:27.000 --> 0:40:30.680 on packaging or images or books. Uh you know, that's 0:40:30.719 --> 0:40:32.840 the only thing is not not a weapon in an 0:40:32.880 --> 0:40:36.040 illustration then as I'm looking around, or is a box 0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:39.640 a boxed game of Ticket to Ride and a VHS 0:40:39.880 --> 0:40:43.280 of Jerry McGuire, And that's it. There are no guns 0:40:43.320 --> 0:40:48.240 in Jerry McGuire. It's it's I guess it's the cinema 0:40:48.320 --> 0:40:52.120 of peace. That's true. Now, there was one really strange 0:40:52.200 --> 0:40:54.880 thing that I was reading in the meta analysis you 0:40:54.880 --> 0:40:56.640 brought up a minute ago. This is yet another thing 0:40:56.719 --> 0:41:00.080 that could just be a sort of like artifact of 0:41:00.280 --> 0:41:03.280 of the existing research that isn't really robust, doesn't actually 0:41:03.320 --> 0:41:06.080 mean anything, but it could be a real discovery, and 0:41:06.160 --> 0:41:08.520 if it is, it's very intriguing to me. So to 0:41:08.640 --> 0:41:12.560 read from their paper quote. One counterintuitive finding in our 0:41:12.560 --> 0:41:18.319 analyses concerned the comparison of real weapons and images of weapons. Specifically, 0:41:18.719 --> 0:41:22.759 the magnitude of the effect for images of weapons was 0:41:23.000 --> 0:41:27.360 larger than for real weapons. Although there is no particular 0:41:27.440 --> 0:41:30.480 theoretical reason why there should be a difference between real 0:41:30.600 --> 0:41:34.160 weapons and images of weapons, the difference was significant in 0:41:34.280 --> 0:41:38.920 the naive meta analysis, and the difference remain significant after 0:41:39.080 --> 0:41:44.480 taking publication bias and potential outliers into consideration. Perhaps participants 0:41:44.520 --> 0:41:48.160 were more suspicious when they saw real weapons. I mean, 0:41:48.239 --> 0:41:51.480 that seems sensible to me. Yeah, uh so, maybe you're 0:41:51.520 --> 0:41:54.239 saying more so. I think the idea more suspicious is 0:41:54.360 --> 0:41:58.719 that people's genuine reactions were maybe tempered in an experiment 0:41:58.760 --> 0:42:01.520 where there's a real gun on the table because they 0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:04.839 feel like something's wrong here and you know that I'm 0:42:04.880 --> 0:42:08.440 being provoked or like you know that, they detect the priming, 0:42:08.600 --> 0:42:11.680 they start to understand what the experiment is testing for 0:42:11.920 --> 0:42:15.239 which they shouldn't in a well designed experiment, um, and 0:42:15.400 --> 0:42:18.160 that affects what they actually report in the end. That's 0:42:18.200 --> 0:42:22.480 a possibility another thing is just that. Yeah, it emerges 0:42:22.880 --> 0:42:26.240 some other strange artifact. But if that were a real effect, 0:42:26.320 --> 0:42:28.239 I would wonder what could explain that. I mean, would 0:42:28.280 --> 0:42:32.600 people actually be more primed to think host to to 0:42:32.800 --> 0:42:37.880 like perceive hostility, and to think aggressive and violent thoughts 0:42:38.200 --> 0:42:40.040 when they look at a picture of a gun rather 0:42:40.120 --> 0:42:42.239 than when when they see a physical gun sitting in 0:42:42.360 --> 0:42:44.319 front of them. Yeah, I mean, I guess, I mean, 0:42:44.400 --> 0:42:46.680 the obvious answer that comes to mind, it might not 0:42:46.760 --> 0:42:49.000 actually line up all that well, is just you know, 0:42:49.120 --> 0:42:50.960 it is it is reality. It is a thing that 0:42:51.080 --> 0:42:53.279 I can pick up and it will become it would 0:42:53.320 --> 0:42:55.840 become a part of my body schema, you know. And 0:42:55.920 --> 0:42:58.520 it is also something that can can you have you 0:42:58.600 --> 0:43:01.200 have used the right way or the wrong way, depending 0:43:01.200 --> 0:43:03.440 how you want to look at it. Uh, could hurt me, 0:43:03.760 --> 0:43:05.960 whereas the picture of the gun is not going to 0:43:06.080 --> 0:43:10.000 hurt me. So you're saying that maybe the picture what's 0:43:10.040 --> 0:43:11.640 the logic there? You're saying, maybe the picture of the 0:43:11.680 --> 0:43:14.239 gun is just like would give you more freedom to 0:43:14.440 --> 0:43:18.680 explore dangerous aggressive thoughts because there's not actually something you 0:43:18.760 --> 0:43:21.840 need to be cautious about in your environment. I don't know, 0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:23.600 like I said, I don't know if this this actually 0:43:23.719 --> 0:43:28.680 has any any meat to it. Yeah, but uh yeah, 0:43:28.719 --> 0:43:30.799 I mean, you know, certainly we can. We can sort 0:43:30.800 --> 0:43:33.800 of bring in our own, um, you know, personal experience, 0:43:33.840 --> 0:43:35.640 like the difference between seeing a picture of a gun 0:43:35.719 --> 0:43:39.000 and seeing somebody, say, with a gun. You know. But 0:43:39.640 --> 0:43:42.360 oh yeah, I guess now that I think about it, Okay, 0:43:42.400 --> 0:43:44.640 So I can imagine, like I watch a scene of 0:43:44.880 --> 0:43:47.719 violence in a movie and I can get like, I 0:43:47.719 --> 0:43:50.439 can get pumped up about it. I'm like, yeah, time 0:43:50.480 --> 0:43:53.200 to fight. If I were to watch the same scene 0:43:53.200 --> 0:43:56.880 of violence play out in physical reality, like on the street, 0:43:57.280 --> 0:43:58.920 I would be like, oh my god, I've got to 0:43:58.920 --> 0:44:03.360 get away from here. So like maybe the physical reality 0:44:03.480 --> 0:44:08.760 of the weapon um produces a different a different cognitive response, 0:44:08.840 --> 0:44:11.400 because like when it's just an image, you're more likely 0:44:11.480 --> 0:44:15.600 to start fantasizing about violence, and when it's a physical reality, 0:44:15.640 --> 0:44:20.200 you're more likely to respond with hesitation, caution, all that. Yeah, 0:44:24.680 --> 0:44:28.200 thank all right, Well at this point, let's get back 0:44:28.239 --> 0:44:31.720 into the discussion of aggressive play versus aggressive behavior with children. 0:44:32.760 --> 0:44:35.560 A really great, great source that I enjoyed reading for 0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:38.640 this is an article that popped up on Slate in 0:44:39.719 --> 0:44:44.120 from Melinda Winner Moyer a science journalists science author who 0:44:44.480 --> 0:44:47.200 I feel like you've probably if you've definitely encountered her 0:44:47.239 --> 0:44:49.160 work before. She's been published in a number of different 0:44:49.200 --> 0:44:52.200 major publications. She's written some books on parenting. And this 0:44:52.280 --> 0:44:55.040 particular article is titled It's Fine for Kids to Play 0:44:55.080 --> 0:44:58.000 with pretend Guns, which I suppose that kind of gives 0:44:58.040 --> 0:45:00.480 away the overall answers that she presents a the article, 0:45:01.160 --> 0:45:02.680 but it's a great article, and it touches on some 0:45:02.760 --> 0:45:06.160 of the key gun safety principles and modern parenting, you know, 0:45:06.400 --> 0:45:09.640 such as not only properly storing guns and AMMO separately 0:45:09.760 --> 0:45:12.840 in a household, but also inquiring about gun safety at 0:45:12.880 --> 0:45:15.120 any house that your child might be going over to. 0:45:15.760 --> 0:45:18.680 Uh and how uh. You know, parents have have been 0:45:18.719 --> 0:45:20.680 pushing to just sort of make this a regular and 0:45:20.800 --> 0:45:23.600 not weird part of our discourse, or you know, as 0:45:23.680 --> 0:45:25.279 as not weird as it can be. You know, it's 0:45:25.320 --> 0:45:29.400 just something you ask, something you inquire about. Um. And 0:45:29.600 --> 0:45:32.040 you know this, added with the reality that gun safety 0:45:32.160 --> 0:45:35.720 education is only so effective in preventing children from handling 0:45:35.880 --> 0:45:38.879 or playing with real firearms, you have given the opportunity, 0:45:39.560 --> 0:45:42.759 which which is interesting to note because again coming back 0:45:42.800 --> 0:45:45.319 to how we think about our own lives versus the statistics. 0:45:45.640 --> 0:45:48.120 It's easy to think, well, well, my child knows the 0:45:48.160 --> 0:45:51.160 difference between a real gun and a fake gun, or 0:45:51.440 --> 0:45:53.880 my child, I've gone over some of the safety tips, 0:45:53.920 --> 0:45:55.360 you know, maybe I've even a roll and roll the 0:45:55.440 --> 0:45:57.080 child in some sort of class. They're going to know 0:45:57.160 --> 0:46:00.200 how to be safe with a gun. But yuh, it 0:46:00.360 --> 0:46:03.640 doesn't look like the research actually lines up with this, 0:46:04.320 --> 0:46:07.120 um and there have been some very recent studies on 0:46:07.239 --> 0:46:11.080 this to back it up. Study from Rutgers University found 0:46:11.080 --> 0:46:14.480 that gun safety programs do not prevent children from handling firearms. 0:46:15.120 --> 0:46:18.200 And then there was also a presentation at the American 0:46:18.239 --> 0:46:22.160 Academy of Pediatrics there two thousand eighteen National Conference and 0:46:22.280 --> 0:46:26.120 Exhibition UH that found that most children surveyed couldn't tell 0:46:26.440 --> 0:46:29.719 real guns from toy guns. Yeah, I was reading about 0:46:29.760 --> 0:46:33.480 that one. Actually, that's a and and here's a question 0:46:33.800 --> 0:46:36.239 came up in twenty seventeen. Are children who see movie 0:46:36.360 --> 0:46:39.520 characters using guns more likely to use them? Well, this 0:46:39.600 --> 0:46:43.200 particular study published in um Jam of Pediatrics found that 0:46:43.320 --> 0:46:46.960 children who watched a PG rated movie clip containing guns 0:46:47.360 --> 0:46:50.840 played with a disabled real gun longer and pulled the 0:46:50.880 --> 0:46:54.000 trigger more often than children who saw the same movie 0:46:54.320 --> 0:46:58.120 not containing guns. Not super surprising. Kids love to act 0:46:58.200 --> 0:47:01.200 out scenes from movies that they've liked. Yeah, and I 0:47:01.280 --> 0:47:03.200 bring us up to that. I think it's all good 0:47:03.280 --> 0:47:06.400 information to have in your head regarding your expectations of 0:47:06.480 --> 0:47:10.279 even your own perfect child. You know, Um, this is 0:47:10.360 --> 0:47:14.040 just kids statistically based on these studies. Now, a lawyer 0:47:14.160 --> 0:47:16.200 goes goes on from all this, the points out that 0:47:16.280 --> 0:47:18.319 you know, first of all, aggression play is of course 0:47:18.400 --> 0:47:22.040 normal and especially noted among boys. Uh. And and in 0:47:22.280 --> 0:47:24.839 in boys and among boys, you know, in individual boys, 0:47:24.840 --> 0:47:28.280 but then also when boys play together. In two thousand, 0:47:28.360 --> 0:47:32.040 two thirteen study from Fair and Russ Early Education and 0:47:32.120 --> 0:47:36.279 Development is the publication. The research has found that preschoolers 0:47:36.320 --> 0:47:39.560 who engaged in oral aggression play, such as having one 0:47:39.640 --> 0:47:43.120 stuffed animal bite the hell out of another stuffed animal. Uh, 0:47:43.520 --> 0:47:46.920 these children were less aggressive in the classroom. And the 0:47:47.000 --> 0:47:50.480 speculation here is the more violence that kids incorporate into 0:47:50.560 --> 0:47:54.280 their pretend play, the more they may learn to control 0:47:54.480 --> 0:47:58.440 violent impulses in real life and control their own emotions. 0:47:58.960 --> 0:48:02.000 And uh, and you've seen even stronger emphasis on all 0:48:02.000 --> 0:48:04.080 of this a two thousand thirteen paper by Heart and 0:48:04.160 --> 0:48:08.400 Tannic published in Children Australia even speculated that we may 0:48:08.480 --> 0:48:12.239 be interfering with a child social emotional, physical, cognitive, and 0:48:12.400 --> 0:48:16.319 communicative development if we try to prevent them from play 0:48:16.400 --> 0:48:20.280 fighting and engaging in this kind of like creative play aggression. 0:48:20.680 --> 0:48:23.560 Now there's some caveats here that that Moyer points out. 0:48:23.640 --> 0:48:25.319 First of all, if a child is actually hurting other 0:48:25.440 --> 0:48:28.120 kids during play fighting, then there may be some impulse 0:48:28.160 --> 0:48:30.520 control issues there. It might be something that that requires 0:48:30.960 --> 0:48:34.239 further attention. It also might be of concern if there 0:48:34.360 --> 0:48:38.200 is no imagination involved in the process, if it is, 0:48:38.320 --> 0:48:40.520 as Moyer puts it, a case of a child simply 0:48:40.640 --> 0:48:43.320 hitting one toy with the other over and over again. 0:48:43.680 --> 0:48:46.799 So narrative ultimately seems to be important part of all 0:48:46.880 --> 0:48:50.239 of this also makes sense. Yeah, so the creation of 0:48:50.400 --> 0:48:53.839 violent or war narrative seems to be key, Moyer says, 0:48:53.920 --> 0:48:57.640 because mirror imitation, let's say, recreating a key battle seen 0:48:57.719 --> 0:49:00.960 from Star Wars is not engage in the sort of 0:49:01.120 --> 0:49:04.719 play that actually works out problems. And I have to 0:49:04.760 --> 0:49:07.239 say I found this pretty interesting, you know, from a 0:49:07.280 --> 0:49:10.440 personal standpoint, but also just looking at toys, because there 0:49:10.480 --> 0:49:12.480 are a lot of toys and play sets out there 0:49:12.880 --> 0:49:16.320 that that aim that that sell themselves on providing you 0:49:16.440 --> 0:49:18.920 with the tools to just recreate pivotal scenes in a 0:49:19.000 --> 0:49:21.640 lot of movies. Um, it's certainly the case with say 0:49:21.680 --> 0:49:23.799 Star Wars and Lego for example. You know you'll find 0:49:23.840 --> 0:49:27.880 sets that are all about like key duels, key action scenes. 0:49:28.640 --> 0:49:31.960 But it may not be that wrote reproduction of key 0:49:32.000 --> 0:49:35.440 scenes that's important, but the creation of different narratives. Well, 0:49:35.480 --> 0:49:38.080 I gotta say, and unfortunately this is just anecdotal again, 0:49:38.239 --> 0:49:41.040 but you know, in my memory of childhood, there was 0:49:41.080 --> 0:49:44.960 a ton of recreating with toys and just out of 0:49:45.040 --> 0:49:49.200 pure imagination play in both cases just recreating scenes directly 0:49:49.320 --> 0:49:51.759 from movies, but also a lot of times I feel 0:49:51.800 --> 0:49:55.120 like that type of play would evolve. So you would 0:49:55.239 --> 0:49:58.520 start by recreating a scene in a movie with legos 0:49:58.640 --> 0:50:01.920 or with toys, and then it would turn into what 0:50:02.080 --> 0:50:04.880 happens next, and then from there you just sort of 0:50:04.960 --> 0:50:08.160 branch out. Yeah, yeah, I I definitely see this in 0:50:08.239 --> 0:50:11.520 my own son, Like I remember him building this, putting 0:50:11.560 --> 0:50:14.040 up a battle scene with Legos and he was like, Dad, 0:50:14.440 --> 0:50:16.759 this is the second battle of Enosis, And I was 0:50:16.800 --> 0:50:19.000 like all right, and uh, but then it it did 0:50:19.040 --> 0:50:21.640 evolved from there to where now it's it's a different 0:50:21.640 --> 0:50:23.960 battle scene every time I go into his room and 0:50:24.000 --> 0:50:26.440 they're off in these little side things he's set up 0:50:26.480 --> 0:50:29.600 where it's like Clone troopers camping and looking after an 0:50:29.600 --> 0:50:32.400 animal or some other like. It's it's kind of an 0:50:32.440 --> 0:50:35.360 interesting puzzle to try and put together the narratives that 0:50:35.719 --> 0:50:38.200 he's clearly playing out in all of these little scenes. 0:50:38.560 --> 0:50:41.239 Are they ever looking over a baby Yoda? We don't 0:50:41.280 --> 0:50:44.799 have a baby Yoda yet, so maybe maybe by by 0:50:44.880 --> 0:50:46.719 the time Christmas rolls around, they'll be a little baby 0:50:46.800 --> 0:50:49.160 Yoda Yoda for them to interact with. What do you think? 0:50:49.200 --> 0:50:51.080 What do you think the next Star Wars baby is 0:50:51.120 --> 0:50:53.200 going to be? So we've had baby Yoda, I'm thinking 0:50:53.239 --> 0:50:57.080 about baby Darth Maul. Can you get a baby Darth Maul? Well, yeah, 0:50:57.160 --> 0:51:00.160 you could definitely have a baby of his species. I 0:51:00.239 --> 0:51:01.920 mean on the Clone War series you had a baby 0:51:02.040 --> 0:51:06.800 hut you had a Hutlet and that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, 0:51:06.800 --> 0:51:09.360 I guess I gotta watch this. Yeah, I said that 0:51:09.480 --> 0:51:12.239 a bunch of times on the show. Now my son 0:51:12.360 --> 0:51:15.239 informs me that in some Star Wars Lego show, there's 0:51:15.239 --> 0:51:18.200 a baby wampa that's super adorable as well. So I mean, really, 0:51:18.440 --> 0:51:20.480 you make a baby out of anything in the Star 0:51:20.560 --> 0:51:22.719 Wars universe versu it's going to be adorable. But you 0:51:22.800 --> 0:51:24.840 get that wampa. It's cute. When it's a baby, it 0:51:24.920 --> 0:51:26.640 starts to grow up. You can't just flush it down 0:51:26.680 --> 0:51:29.680 the toilet like an alligator. Don't do that to alligators, 0:51:29.719 --> 0:51:35.359 by the way, don't buy baby alligators, but or baby wampa. Now, 0:51:35.480 --> 0:51:38.560 now this isn't to say that parents can't or shouldn't 0:51:38.680 --> 0:51:41.960 enter into this sort of thing, that they shouldn't interrupt 0:51:42.120 --> 0:51:44.719 or maybe not interrupt, but but at least, uh, you know, 0:51:45.080 --> 0:51:48.719 converse with their child about these sort of holy experiments 0:51:48.800 --> 0:51:52.799 and conflict play UM and Moyer sites. Diane Levin, an 0:51:52.840 --> 0:51:57.160 early and education specialist at Wheelock College in Boston, UH 0:51:57.239 --> 0:52:00.239 and the author of the war play Dilemma. Levin says 0:52:00.320 --> 0:52:02.520 that you can you can ask follow up questions to 0:52:02.640 --> 0:52:06.600 statements about, say, killing bad guys, with questions like, well, 0:52:06.680 --> 0:52:08.719 what did the bad guy do? Is there anything else 0:52:08.760 --> 0:52:11.600 that can be done besides killing the bad guy? Uh? 0:52:11.680 --> 0:52:14.520 You know, there are conversations you can have about conflict 0:52:14.560 --> 0:52:18.080 in the nature of conflict and how this imagined conflict 0:52:18.160 --> 0:52:21.239 lines up with real life. Plus, they point out that 0:52:21.360 --> 0:52:24.440 trying to prevent things like gun play, you know, are 0:52:24.560 --> 0:52:27.839 likely to backfire anyway, making it more desirable. So it's 0:52:27.880 --> 0:52:30.520 best to engage in conversations about it, like it better 0:52:30.560 --> 0:52:32.480 to have the conflict play is allowed, but it's something 0:52:32.560 --> 0:52:35.400 we can have conversations about, so that we can you know, 0:52:35.480 --> 0:52:39.399 you can have these these important conversations about how real 0:52:39.520 --> 0:52:43.319 conflict works and the ramifications of violence in the real world. Yeah, 0:52:43.360 --> 0:52:46.880 you don't want to just send the gun play underground? Yeah, Now. 0:52:46.880 --> 0:52:49.080 I think it's also worth noting that some of this 0:52:49.280 --> 0:52:52.799 would seem to go far beyond anything specifically involving guns 0:52:52.840 --> 0:52:56.800 and weapons. For instance, a June study from the University 0:52:56.840 --> 0:53:00.799 of Cambridge found that children's children whose father make time 0:53:00.920 --> 0:53:03.160 to play with them from a very early age may 0:53:03.239 --> 0:53:07.040 find it easier to control their behavior and emotions as 0:53:07.080 --> 0:53:09.719 they grow up. And the key distinction here, and I 0:53:09.760 --> 0:53:11.880 think I think one worth pointing out for single parents 0:53:11.920 --> 0:53:14.480 and saying the same sex parents is that it's not 0:53:14.840 --> 0:53:17.520 it's not about the you know, the gender of the father, etcetera. 0:53:17.560 --> 0:53:20.719 It's about a more physical play style and stuff like 0:53:20.960 --> 0:53:25.319 quote tickling, chasing, and piggyback rides. But this studying question 0:53:25.360 --> 0:53:27.640 looked at forty years of research and found quote a 0:53:27.680 --> 0:53:32.520 consistent correlation between father child play and children's subsequent ability 0:53:32.600 --> 0:53:36.040 to control their feelings. So play more in the domain 0:53:36.160 --> 0:53:42.360 of rough housing maybe sometimes helps children understand understand boundaries 0:53:42.520 --> 0:53:47.239 better and and control their their outbursts and impulses. Yeah, 0:53:47.360 --> 0:53:49.160 and so like this is me, not the study, but 0:53:49.239 --> 0:53:51.680 I instantly think of the times when I've been kind 0:53:51.680 --> 0:53:54.560 of playing rough with the kiddo and I get kind 0:53:54.600 --> 0:53:57.480 of clocked, you know, or something ends up really hurting. 0:53:57.560 --> 0:53:59.600 Like like maybe that kind of thing is a part 0:54:00.000 --> 0:54:04.880 of of understanding like you know, restrain and the boundaries 0:54:04.880 --> 0:54:08.120 of physical aggression, etcetera. You find out what too rough 0:54:08.360 --> 0:54:13.000 is by by like going there with a responsible adult present, Right, 0:54:13.640 --> 0:54:15.920 All right, Well we're gonna go and close it out there. Um, 0:54:16.160 --> 0:54:18.000 you know, hopefully just gave everybody a little you know, 0:54:18.120 --> 0:54:20.640 food for thought, and we would love to hear from 0:54:20.680 --> 0:54:22.360 everybody out there if you have any thoughts on what 0:54:22.440 --> 0:54:25.360 we discussed here today, you know, especially in and around 0:54:25.360 --> 0:54:27.759 the holidays, when inevitably there's gonna there are going to 0:54:27.880 --> 0:54:31.760 be toy weapons under the tree. They might be human size, 0:54:31.800 --> 0:54:34.719 they might be very miniature. Uh, they might be for 0:54:34.760 --> 0:54:36.759 grown ups, they might be for kids. But you know, 0:54:36.840 --> 0:54:38.120 what are we supposed to do with that? How are 0:54:38.160 --> 0:54:40.560 we supposed to to think about these things? Uh? So 0:54:40.640 --> 0:54:42.560 I thought it was a good a good episode to 0:54:42.680 --> 0:54:46.680 roll out this time of year. Oh man. One we 0:54:46.760 --> 0:54:50.359 didn't even get into toy weapons for adults, such as 0:54:50.520 --> 0:54:52.880 like what do you call it when like an adult 0:54:53.000 --> 0:54:56.200 person buys a buys a sword. They're not planning on 0:54:56.400 --> 0:54:59.239 using it in battle, they just wanted to have it. Yeah, 0:54:59.320 --> 0:55:01.160 that you want to put a on the wall, which 0:55:01.239 --> 0:55:03.680 of course you know if you if you think about 0:55:03.680 --> 0:55:05.680 the weapons effect, Yeah, that that means every time I 0:55:05.719 --> 0:55:08.520 walk into the living room, I'm gonna be touched by 0:55:08.520 --> 0:55:12.280 the weapons effect, right, Um, it's yeah, it's it's interesting. 0:55:12.360 --> 0:55:14.200 I mean then also, you if you buy that sword 0:55:14.880 --> 0:55:16.680 to put on the wall, you are going to hold 0:55:16.719 --> 0:55:21.040 it at some point if you, um, you might film 0:55:21.120 --> 0:55:24.200 yourself on your phone doing tricks with it. Yeah, it's 0:55:24.239 --> 0:55:27.399 it's gonna happen. Um, if you have a rental house 0:55:27.440 --> 0:55:29.640 and you put on like Airbnb or something, and you 0:55:29.719 --> 0:55:31.799 have a sword on the wall. People who stay there 0:55:31.840 --> 0:55:33.680 are going to try and take the sword off the wall. 0:55:33.800 --> 0:55:36.560 It's it's they're they're gonna go for it, even if 0:55:36.600 --> 0:55:38.120 it's fixed in place. It's gonna be like the sword 0:55:38.120 --> 0:55:41.920 in the stone bolt that sucker down. Yeah, all right, 0:55:41.960 --> 0:55:44.400 we're gonna go and close it out then. Um. In 0:55:44.480 --> 0:55:46.160 the meantime, if you want to check out other episodes 0:55:46.200 --> 0:55:47.600 of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you can find us 0:55:47.600 --> 0:55:50.279 wherever you get your podcast, wherever that happens to be. 0:55:50.520 --> 0:55:54.240 We just hope that you rate, review, and subscribe. Episodes 0:55:54.280 --> 0:55:56.080 of Stuff to Blow Your Mind come out on Tuesdays 0:55:56.120 --> 0:55:59.040 and Thursdays. We have some other shorter content that comes 0:55:59.080 --> 0:56:02.960 out on days and Wednesdays. Fridays that's gonna be Weird 0:56:03.040 --> 0:56:05.120 House Cinema, and then what on Saturday you get a 0:56:05.160 --> 0:56:09.719 repeat episode. So it's a full a full menu of possibilities. 0:56:10.040 --> 0:56:14.200 Your audio stockings are stuffed anyway, huge thanks as always 0:56:14.239 --> 0:56:17.080 to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you 0:56:17.080 --> 0:56:18.920 would like to get in touch with us with feedback 0:56:19.000 --> 0:56:21.080 on this episode or any other to suggest topic for 0:56:21.120 --> 0:56:23.279 the future, just to say hello, you can email us 0:56:23.320 --> 0:56:25.879 at contact at stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com 0:56:25.960 --> 0:56:35.960 Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 0:56:36.360 --> 0:56:39.239 For more podcasts for my heart radiosit the iHeart Radio app, 0:56:39.440 --> 0:56:42.160 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.