1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. This is 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. In today's episode is 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,239 Speaker 1: from the vault. It is an episode that we did 4 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: last year on toy Guns. Originally published December twenty two. 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: All right, well, let's unwrap it and uh and have 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: a go at it. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: production of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to 8 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm 9 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: Joe McCormick. And Rob I've got a question for you 10 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: to start off with today. I want to know if you, 11 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: as a child had a toy that I also had. 12 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: I think it was really common and I got it 13 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: for Christmas one year, I remember, and what it was 14 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: was a a plastic alien pistol that when you pulled 15 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: the trigger, it would play one of a sequence of 16 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: like five different sequences of sound effects. So the first 17 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: one would go like do you do? You do you do? 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: And then the next one would go what what? And 19 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: the next one would be like I've got that kind 20 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 1: of memorized in my brain. Uh. And in the version 21 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: that I had, there was like a little red and blue, 22 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,639 Speaker 1: clear plastic case over some led lights that would shoot 23 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: back and forth when you fired the gun. Do you 24 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about? I don't know what the 25 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: name of this thing is, so I don't know how 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: to look it up. I I don't think I had 27 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: the exact one you had, but I must have had 28 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: like an earlier model, because I had one that was 29 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: black and red and it did the exact same sound 30 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: effects you're discussing here, So I feel like it had 31 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: to have been the same tech in just a different color, 32 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: or like a slightly different plastic toy gun. Now, there 33 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: was one thing I liked about this toy gun, which 34 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: was that every time you pull the trigger, it would 35 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: make a different sound effect, which means that it was 36 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: almost like you could imagine that you had like one 37 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: of the Stormtrooper blasters from the very beginning of Star Wars, 38 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: where you have multiple settings. You can set, I guess 39 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: for the regular blast, and then you can set for stun. 40 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: Except the problem was you couldn't toggle the sound effects 41 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: on this thing. They just win in a sequence, So 42 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,399 Speaker 1: if you wanted to get one sound effect in particular, 43 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: you'd have to pull the trigger a certain number of 44 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: times to like run through the cycle and get back there. 45 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: I think part of that is the toy designers focus 46 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,399 Speaker 1: on tormenting the parents, because I've noticed this in contemporary 47 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: toys as well. Um, where my son has a few 48 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: different lightsabers, and one of the ones he has it 49 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 1: seems to at random either do lightsaber noises or play 50 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: part of the Star Wars theme. But it seems entirely unpredictable, 51 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: so if the batteries are in, if the device is on, 52 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: and it seems also confusing about if it's toggled on 53 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: or not, like you're never sure, um, yeah, you it's 54 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: apparent listening in from the next room over, you don't 55 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: know what to expect. It just keeps you completely on edge. 56 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: I think if you want to calibrate a sound effects 57 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: toy for maximum parental torment, you should somewhat randomize the 58 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: sounds that come out and the sequence at which they 59 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: come out, because that we know that randomized rewards they 60 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,239 Speaker 1: tend to create more addictive effects. The child will make 61 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: the sound effects more often for longer durations, and the 62 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: parents will slowly lose their minds. And of course it's 63 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: also written in a in a way ridiculous because when 64 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: we were kids, but also kids today perfectly capable of 65 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: creating their own sound effects. You don't need the toy 66 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: regun to go, Pu pu, you don't need the lightsaber 67 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: to go because we can do those sound effects. We 68 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: do them all the time. Um. In fact, I think 69 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: I read that that they had to get onto you 70 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: and McGregor in filming the prequel films because he kept 71 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: making those sounds with his mouth during the lightsaber battles. Yeah. 72 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: I read that somewhere. I don't know if that's true, 73 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: but it's it's it's wonderful either way. So he was like, anaka, 74 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: I have the high ground. M yep, I think so. 75 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: But I guess this all comes up because today you 76 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about toy guns, which I thought was 77 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: a very interesting topic. Yeah. And in a way, this 78 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: is a holiday episode because the holidays are about toys 79 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: under the trees, right, and the holidays at their best 80 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: or about imaginative escapes, and um, you know, I know 81 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: in my own experience raising an eight year old, it's 82 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: it's proven impossible to ignore the specter of the gun. Um. 83 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's everywhere it was in it was 84 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: you know, in our upbringing. So I thought it would 85 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: be good to look at some of the sort of 86 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: broad studies and meta analyzes that that look at the 87 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,799 Speaker 1: idea of toy guns, because I mean, first and foremost, 88 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: we have to recognize that that actual guns are lethal 89 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: instruments designed to kill animals and or humans, depending on 90 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: their exact design. Now, gun ownership itself is obviously a 91 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: divisive topic, and one can spend a lot of time 92 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: discussing objections to the legal use of such weapons, and 93 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: there's there's too much here for us to get into 94 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: in this episode, but I think we can mostly agree 95 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: that improper use and misuse of firearms is to be avoided, 96 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: and in very broad strokes, I'm thinking about guns used 97 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: in homicides and suicides, guns used in mass shootings and 98 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: accidental deaths involving firearms, especially those involving children. Right, And 99 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: of course, the the obvious implication there is that children 100 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: should not be playing with real guns, even though there's 101 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: clearly a desire among many children to enact types of 102 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: play that involve guns or involve surrogates for guns. So 103 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: so there's sort of a natural accommodation that happens there. 104 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: It's like well, kids wanna want to pretend to play 105 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: with guns. Obviously they should not be seeking out and 106 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,799 Speaker 1: handling real guns, So give them plastic toy guns. Yeah, 107 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: and of course, especially nowadays, But but I mean this 108 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: was also president in the minds of parents in the 109 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: past too. You know, we ask ourselves, are we doing 110 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: the right thing? Should they have toy guns? Should we 111 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: take all the toy guns away? Um, there's so many 112 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: questions that emerge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I I wonder about 113 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: this question myself. I mean I can. I can very 114 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: much see both sides of it. I mean, on one hand, 115 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: I feel like, well, I mean, you know, conflict play 116 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: is a normal type of imaginative play. Uh. One of 117 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: the most common types of conflict that children are going 118 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: to imagine given the world we live in, is conflict 119 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,679 Speaker 1: with guns. So they will want to act that out 120 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: and in a way that just seems like part of 121 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: childhood development. But then on the other hand, like if 122 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: you watch a child, like, you know, running around pretending 123 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: to shoot each other, You're like, oh my god, no, 124 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: something horrible is happening here. This can't be allowed. Yeah. Yeah, 125 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: it gets increasingly complex the more you think about it. 126 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: You know, because especially since you're dealing in different worlds, 127 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: you know, generally speaking, like the child's world and their 128 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: exposure to guns is almost entirely within this realm of fantasy, 129 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: you know, if you know, if if you're fortunate and uh, 130 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: and adults live in a broader world of understanding about 131 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: what guns are and what they can do, and you 132 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: don't want to just grab them and pull them completely 133 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: into your bubble. But but then also the question is 134 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: what should I leave them over there and their bubble, Like, yeah, 135 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: it becomes this this this labyrinth, this maze that you 136 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: try and figure your way out of. So this is 137 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: what we're gonna basically be talking about in today's episode. 138 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: But before we go go further, I thought it might 139 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: be helpful to go ahead and throw out some stats 140 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: and some numbers, um, just to um, you know, underlie 141 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: the conversation here. So, according to the CDC stats for eighteen, 142 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: the most recently made available as of this recording, at 143 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: the tail end of the United States saw thirty eight 144 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: thousand three deaths from firearm violence in and that accounted 145 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: for homicides and suicides UH those involved firearms. Additionally, Americans 146 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: are ten times more likely to be killed by guns 147 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: than people in other developed countries. According to a two 148 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: thousand sixteen study published in the American Journal of Medicine, 149 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,239 Speaker 1: gun purchases surged over the summer in as did incidents 150 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: of gun violence we face. And on top of that, 151 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: of course, we faced increased awareness of police violence against minorities. 152 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: And as Craig Jackson pointed out on the conversation, despite 153 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: lockdown measures in the US, mass shootings in the US 154 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: sharply rows. As of November twenty six, I believe there 155 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: were five d seventy eight mass shootings in the country, 156 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: already ahead of the total four hundred seventeen from the 157 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: year before. So we have to face the fact that 158 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: if our children are going to be running around pretending 159 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: to play with guns, you're holding that in your head 160 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: with the reality of all the terrible things that guns 161 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,719 Speaker 1: can do and have been used to do, even just 162 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: in in recent memory. Yeah, I mean, as as a parent, 163 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: it is it is at once terrifying and then terrifyingly 164 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: commonplace to get that that robot call from your school 165 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: telling you that the school has been locked down because 166 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: of an incident in the surrounding area, but that everything 167 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: is cool, and you're you know it, it's it's shocking, 168 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: and then you're like, oh, everything's okay, And then you 169 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: you ask yourself, should I feel okay about this? Because 170 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: I feel like I shouldn't. But anyways, as far as 171 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: children and guns go, some more stats here. At two 172 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: thousand sixteen study published in the New England Journal of 173 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 1: Medicine found that death by gunshot with the second highest 174 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: cause of death in the United States and sixteen among 175 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: children and adolescents ages one through nineteen. Firearms were the 176 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: second leading cause of death in two thousand fourteen for 177 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: American children between ages of one and nineteen, an average 178 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: of eight kids shot per day um if you average 179 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: that out over the calendar year. And then also saw 180 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: an uptick in unintentional shootings by children by in March 181 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,959 Speaker 1: and April. And I believe commentators often, you know, link 182 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: that to the fact that suddenly children were at home 183 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,439 Speaker 1: more and it gave them greater opportunity to come across 184 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: guns in the household. Uh And and of course that 185 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: opens up the door for misuse and accidental usage of 186 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: the weapon. I think sometimes people get the feeling when 187 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: when you're talking about things like certain like safety precautions 188 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: involving like gun storage, you know, should you keep a 189 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: gun stored in the homeloaded? And questions like that. Um, 190 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: It's it's strange how people can know what the risks 191 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: of certain things are but still think, Uh, those risks 192 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: only apply like statistically to people in general. And I 193 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 1: am not like people in general, So I'm okay like 194 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: that that I the same logic that holds true in 195 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: general for people and households won't apply to me or 196 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: to my household. You know, I don't need to worry 197 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: about that kind of stuff. Isn't it like weird how 198 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: we can think like that? Yeah? Yeah, And and plus 199 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: I think we also color our estimation of these numbers 200 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: based on our own experiences, and are you know the 201 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: limited nature of our experiences, you know? Like I? On 202 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: on one hand, I can lie, I can look back 203 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: at my own past and say, well, uh, you know, 204 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: I grew up with guns in the household, and and 205 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: I didn't, you know, have an accident with a gun. 206 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: I didn't. I don't. I never loaded a gun on 207 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: my own or anything like that. I I don't think 208 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: I knew any growing up that was engaged in a 209 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: firearm related accident or the accidental discharge of a fire 210 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: firearm in the house. But but then again, that's just 211 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 1: my limited experience, you know, and you know, and then rationally, 212 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: I'm not willing to to to roll the dice for 213 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: my own child based on what I experienced, you know, right, 214 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: I mean, but there is definitely a natural tendency to 215 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: sort of think of yourself as an exception to whatever 216 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: the statistical rule is, and to elevate the importance of 217 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: anecdotes in your own life over the you know what 218 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: the risks actually are exactly. Yeah, So as far as 219 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: the stats go, we could we could keep going on 220 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: and on about this and torturing the numbers, but and 221 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: there're ultimately number of different directions one could go into 222 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: discussing these numbers, the causes, the possible solutions. But one 223 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: question that always comes up, sometimes in good faith, sometimes 224 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: as a distraction is what about guns in childhood play? 225 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: And and one of the reasons, again, like we've been 226 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: discussing that this is so um, you know, there's something 227 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: we end up meditating on so much is that, you know, 228 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 1: I found that guns and media and subsequently in play 229 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: are almost impossible to avoid because while you can curate 230 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: what your kids watch and and ultimately this is even 231 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 1: harder than I expected it to be, they're still going 232 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: to interact with other kids, and there's always going to 233 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: be a kid on the playground that turns a stick 234 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: into a weapon, turns a stick into a gun or 235 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: a sword or spear or what have you, but very 236 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: often a gun. And even if they don't have access 237 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: to sticks, they can make the finger guns and blast away. Right. Yeah, again, 238 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: I think this comes down to like this difficult question 239 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: that people have over like how much is it reasonable 240 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: to try to control your child's experience of the world. Um, like, 241 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 1: you're always going to be balancing that. I mean when 242 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: you talked about media for some reason, the thing that 243 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: immediately popped into my head is like what happens once 244 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: a child discovers YouTube? Like how do you do you 245 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: just like set a child loose on YouTube? Or like 246 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: how do if if not, how do you prevent that 247 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: from happening? Uh? I don't you know, it just seems 248 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: like it's it's mind boggling to me. Yeah, yeah, it is. 249 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: You know, what we have We can certainly go on 250 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: about about that that topic as well. But but of 251 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,719 Speaker 1: course sorry that that's ancillarty your main point, which is 252 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: about play. Yeah, I mean, I think it's absolutely clear 253 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: probably everybody who's been around kids for any amount of 254 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: time or was once a child themselves, probably remembers or 255 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: has observed the natural emergence of violent and conflict play 256 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: among kids. It doesn't seem like something it's hard to 257 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: rule this out, but it doesn't seem like something that 258 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: like parents have to instruct their children how how to 259 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: do it. Seems like it just kind of comes naturally 260 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 1: out of the child brain that like we need to 261 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: enact some kind of imaginative violent conflict. Yeah, and then 262 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: the gun being an inevitable part of the conflict media, 263 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: they absorb, it just becomes a part of it, and 264 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: it's a you know, you can try and sort of 265 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 1: steer your children towards things like lightsabers and ninja turtles, 266 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: you know, but even in those genres, a lot of guns, 267 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot there's there's those are very 268 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: ultimately very shooty properties as well. So you know, unless 269 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: you you know, just want your your you're just gonna 270 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: feed your kid pop patrol over and over again and 271 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,599 Speaker 1: never let them move on to something else. Yeah, what 272 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: do you do? It's funny how many of these properties 273 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: I can think of several offhand. You know, Batman, uh, 274 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: Star Wars whatever, have this sort of moral hierarchy of 275 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: weapons selection where the most morally virtuous characters never use guns. 276 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: They will use like hand to hand combat. They do 277 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: still use weapons of various types, lightsabers and all that. 278 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: But then as you go down the the hierarchy, down 279 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: the ladder of moral virtue into more ambiguous and then 280 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: ultimately evil characters, the propensity for firearms and firearm analogs 281 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: gets higher and higher. Yeah, that is interesting, and and 282 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: I I suppose I like that. There may be problems 283 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: with it if I an analyze it too much, but 284 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: on the surface, I like that that I that idea 285 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: that the lightsaber is the civilized weapon and the blaster 286 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: is the uncivilized weapon. So I guess, I guess it's 287 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: complicated there because also the Sith Lords primarily use lightsabers, 288 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: like the most evil of the most evil, also as 289 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: shoe blasters, and and we'll only you know, you can 290 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: do a lot of damage with the lightsaber. You can 291 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: be a bad guy with just a laser sword. Yeah, 292 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: I have reservations at times when I am ambushed by 293 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: my my son with a lightsaber because even though I'm 294 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: not being you know, shot at in the allway, you know, 295 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: he is trying to dismember me. So but it's dismemberment 296 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: that comes from a place of love. Yeah, yeah, um, 297 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: And you know, well, I think we'll actually come back 298 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: to to some of that in a bit here, but 299 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: but let's go ahead and talk about just the topic 300 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: of aggressive play because that's, you know, very broadly what 301 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: we're talking about here. Um, you know, getting out of 302 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: the media portion of this and getting more into like 303 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: what children are doing when they're engaging with their toys 304 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: and each other in their imagination. As Jeffrey Goldstein of 305 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: the University of you Trek and the Netherlands pointed out 306 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: in Aggressive Toy Play published in and the Future of 307 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: Play Theory, aggressive play includes mock fighting, general rough housing, 308 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: and fantasy aggression, and we can further think of imaginary 309 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: battles and war toys as being part of war play. 310 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: Part quote. Aggressive toys and war toys are those that 311 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: children use in play fighting and fantasy aggression, including but 312 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: not limited to, toys that resemble weapons, and naturally this 313 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: covers a great deal of territory. You know an old 314 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: timey you know, silver toy, cowboy pistol. You know that 315 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: there's a there's a weapon, uh toy, a bright orange 316 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: ray gun that looks like nothing you would actually use 317 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: in a real world combat scenario. Same case a tiny 318 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: blaster and a Lego mini mini figures hand yep that 319 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: applies Lego blocks formed roughly into the shape of a gun. 320 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: The same thing, a stick, finger guns, you name it. 321 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: All of that kind of falls under the same uh 322 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: loose category here, So basically like most of the toys 323 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: I remember having as a kid. That may be overstating it, 324 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: but it is weird. Also the I wonder how much 325 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: of this has changed generationally. I'm sure people were having 326 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: this debate when we were kids, But I just remember 327 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: having lots and lots of explicit weapon and even gun 328 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: toys as a child, and all my friends having the 329 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: same stuff. Yeah, and I remember making guns like I 330 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 1: would watch like a James Bond film and I think 331 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 1: it was what from Russia with Love? And there's the 332 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: whole thing he has like a rifle that folds up 333 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: in a suitcase so I somehow got my hands on 334 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: an old suitcase and I had like a pipe that 335 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: I had in there, and like some sort of capsule 336 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: that I was pretending was the the bullet. You know. Um, 337 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: it's just it was so so easy to get excited 338 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: about those things. Well, I think you you should be 339 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: proud of any child who shows ingenuity of that kind. 340 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: What did you also make yourself a like a Robert 341 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: Shaw garatte wire. Oh yeah, that that suitcase had so 342 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: many interesting bits of spycraft in it. But um, I 343 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: can't remember what all I had in it. You know, 344 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 1: it was it was the imagination was like it. So 345 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 1: it wasn't too impressive. Okay. Now, generally speaking, studies have 346 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: shown and continue to show that that boys display more 347 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: aggressive play than girls and their various theorized reasons here. 348 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean that it's only boys by any stretch. 349 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 1: The sex differences, though, seem to have been observed across cultures. Uh. Now, 350 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 1: given you know, the cultural landscape of everything, I imagine 351 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: this is an area where we're going to continue to 352 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: see analysis of where we are with this and where 353 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 1: we're going with this. Uh, you know, because there were 354 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: a number of of sort of loose ends I could 355 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: have gone after when I was looking at this, and 356 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: originally like, there's a whole thing about like gender marketing 357 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,479 Speaker 1: in uh gun weapons, you know, particularly like in nerve toys. 358 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 1: So there's a lot to consider just in this category 359 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: as well. But these seem to be the trends that 360 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: have played out over time, and these are the trends 361 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: that are often, uh at least brought up in any 362 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 1: kind of study regarding aggressive play and gun play among children. Yeah, 363 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: it seems pretty clear that that us of play is 364 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: uh present regardless of gender, but it's more common in 365 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: boys now. Goldstein pointed out that warplay usually begins around 366 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: age two and occurs once a week with at least 367 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: a couple of other kids. I love this detail because 368 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: I know what he's saying. But it also makes me 369 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: imagine like a child keeping a schedule and you're like, hey, 370 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: do you wanna do you want to watch a movie 371 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 1: this Wednesday? As I'm sorry, I got warplay. Um, you know, 372 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: Keith and Toby are are are already uh yes, is 373 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,719 Speaker 1: for that, so I'm gonna have to pass. I like that, 374 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: and it also makes me think of, um remembering back 375 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: to my own childhood, how thin sometimes the boundary was 376 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: between something that was explicitly war or violence play and 377 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: something that was a thinly disguised or leaky surrogate for 378 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: war violence play, some kind of game that was like 379 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: almost a war, that would you'd easily sort of like 380 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: slip into it being a violent war, do you know 381 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: what I mean? Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean I think 382 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: one of the most you know, obvious examples is of 383 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: course sports itself. I mean, you know, several times away, 384 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 1: like what every day you would go to pe class, 385 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: and you know, maybe you're square dancing or doing that 386 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: thing with the with the parachute where you dance around 387 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: in circles with it. But a lot of times you're 388 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: playing games, sports games, and those are essentially wars. Those 389 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: are wars that are that are carried out in a 390 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: mostly non violent way with some rule limitations, but they 391 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: kind of fulfill the same um role that warfare plays um. 392 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: And then you know, on on top of that, you've 393 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: got all sorts of things, all sorts of games. I mean, 394 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: you could, if you really wanted to stretch things, you 395 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: could say a game of cards as a war. I mean, 396 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: any kind of competition, right, Yeah, and but I mean 397 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: in a in a closer literal sense. I mean, I 398 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: remember a lot of the games we came up with 399 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: as a child, when you're not playing like a pre 400 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 1: created game that has its own rules and all that 401 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: external to you, but you're doing some kind of Calvin 402 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: ball thing when kids do all the time that you 403 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: come up with some original game in your head and 404 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: you play with your friends. A lot of those games 405 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: I recall, we're basically just like half a step removed 406 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: from being a cage match. You know. It's like it's 407 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,479 Speaker 1: a game that maybe involves a ball or you know, 408 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: some kind of abstract item or rules in some way, 409 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: but it could easily just devolve into a battle royale. Yeah. Well, 410 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: I guess part of it is when you see kids play, 411 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: a lot of it comes down to this sort of 412 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: improv that they're doing. They're all bringing a certain energy 413 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,959 Speaker 1: and certain ideas to what they're playing and how they're playing, 414 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: and so you know, the right combination of kids might 415 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: be just concerned with building a house for a mouse 416 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: or doing an archaeological dig in the dirt. But then 417 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: there's gonna be a kid that comes up and is 418 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: gonna bring the finger gun and you know, kind of 419 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: like a Michael Scott in the office in every improv 420 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: scene pretends to have a gun. Well, that scene in 421 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: the office highlights a great thing about about play, actually, 422 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: which is that you know, occasionally in an improv scene, 423 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: if somebody were to bring a gun into the scene, 424 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: that would be fun and interesting and it would liven 425 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: things up. Know what are we gonna do now? But 426 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: the problem comes because he introduces a gun into every 427 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: improv skit. And I think the same thing could probably 428 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 1: be said of play, Like, you know, it's normal for 429 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: children to enact is imaginative conflict play, but when when 430 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 1: some kid wants to turn everything into an imagined violent conflict, 431 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: then it's like, Okay, that's not fun anymore. Yeah, yeah, 432 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 1: And then I don't remember if it was explicitly stated 433 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: or if it was even implied, but I looking back 434 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: on it, I kind of feel like it was the 435 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: same gun scenario that he would bring, which also ties 436 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: into some of the points that are are made in 437 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: one of the sources we looked at for this episode. 438 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: So anyway, the big question here is not whether kids 439 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: engage in aggressive play, because they do, but it's rather 440 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: about what is it for and indeed, if it actually 441 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: leads to more aggressive behavior and golds Steam points to 442 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: a trio of studies from the ninety nineties that that 443 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: indicate that war games and video games with violent themes 444 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: increase the frequency and duration of aggressive play. But the 445 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: connection to actually aggressive behavior that that's a different story 446 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: that's ultimately a lot more complicated. Yeah, I guess this 447 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,479 Speaker 1: is the big question that a lot of parents are 448 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: probably worried about, Like if they watched their kids doing 449 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: doing aggressive play that what they're worried about often is 450 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: does this mean my child is going to grow up 451 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: to be a violent person. Yeah, And we may think 452 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: about this sometimes as adults when we play our video 453 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: games and and whatnot, especially if you're playing a game 454 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: that actually gives you like a kill count, which could 455 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: be a little sobering at times, and you're like, oh 456 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: my god, I sure did pretend shoot a lot of people? 457 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: Am I? Okay? So anyway, that that's a whole area 458 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: we'll have to consider coming back to in the future. 459 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: But uh, I've got a good place to go from 460 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: here would be to travel back to nine seven and 461 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: consider something that we know as the weapons effect. So 462 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: back in sixty seven, American social psychologist Leonard Berkowitz and 463 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 1: co author Anthony Lapage conducted a randomized study using male 464 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: college students. Now, each test involved two participants, but one 465 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: of these participants was always a secret accompliments accomplice of 466 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: the testers. So you only really have one random individual one, 467 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: you know, the purer college student that's in here and 468 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: is being tested. The other person is just is actually 469 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: a part of the study but pretending to be a 470 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: test subject. So the subject in the accomplice would take 471 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 1: turns engaging in a mundane task such as the example 472 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: of that that I saw listed was uh, listing ideas 473 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: to help sell used cars, and the first point a 474 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: gun at the buyer. No, no, no, the gun. The 475 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 1: gun comes in later. But but so the the actual 476 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: assignment here has nothing to do with guns. It's just 477 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: something mundane and you know, and ultimately I think non violent. 478 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: So first, the accomplice gives the subject feedback on their work, 479 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: and they give this feedback with between zero and ten 480 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 1: small electric shocks. Okay, okay, so that's again that's the 481 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: fake test subject shocking the actual test subject. But then 482 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: it's the actual test subjects turn to shock back. Uh 483 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: so this was the basic test for regression. How many 484 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: shocks would they retaliate with, how aggressive would they be? 485 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: And here's where the weapon came into play. Sometimes there 486 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: was a gun or guns on the table. I believe 487 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: it was a shotgun and a revolver um. And in 488 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: other cases they would have a badminton racket and some shuttlecocks. 489 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: And there was also a control group that had no 490 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: items on the table at all. The actual subjects were 491 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 1: told that these were just part of another study and 492 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: we're just items to be ignored, which of course sounds 493 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: kind of comical in and of itself. Um but but but, 494 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: I mean the big thing is, it's impossible to ignore 495 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: those weapons, right, I mean, there's a there's it's it's 496 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: kind of impossible to ignore anything that is there on 497 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: the table, like the shuttle cocks and the badminton racket, 498 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: but especially the pistol and the shotgun. It's kind of 499 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: reminds me of in Madmen were for a long time, 500 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: Pete Campbell just carries a rifle around the office and 501 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: no one seems to think it's that big a deal. 502 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 1: Oh man, I can forgot about that episode, but it 503 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: comes up in several episodes. It's like a fixture. Huh. So, 504 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: as you can imagine the idea, here is what happens. 505 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 1: How does just the mere sight of weapons, the mere 506 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: sight of some guns, how does that affect uh, the 507 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,479 Speaker 1: individual's aggressive response? And so this is this is what 508 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: the results were. Provoked participants who saw the guns were 509 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 1: more aggressive than the other participants, and the authors called 510 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: this the weapons effect, and they argued that it meant 511 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: that the mere sight of a gun made us more aggressive, 512 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 1: not more aggressive without provocation, minds you, and certainly not 513 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: so provoked that they say, grab the gun or anything 514 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: like that, but more were aggressive within the boundaries of 515 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 1: the study parameters. Okay, so what they're claiming is to 516 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: have found that when you see the gun, it's not 517 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,199 Speaker 1: that you pick up the gun and kill somebody with it, 518 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: but when you see the gun, it's going to make 519 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: you make your shape, your cognition to give more shocks 520 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: to this other guy and to be more vengeful. Right, 521 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: And you know, this kind of lines up with a 522 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: lot of studies that we've that have been conducted in 523 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: something we've looked at in the past about just how 524 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: random or even you know, not so random things in 525 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 1: our environment, symbols, etcetera can affect the way that we 526 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: think and behave, you know, be it religious iconography, or 527 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: eyes staring at us from something. You know that that 528 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: all all of these things, all all of this is 529 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: stimuli that can affect the manifestation of the mind. Oh yeah, 530 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: So if, for example, you take that study that found 531 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 1: that people might be more generous in putting money into 532 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: like a collection box if there are some eyes painted 533 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: on it, or or less likely to steal money from 534 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: it if there's some eyes painted on it, what's the 535 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: effect if there's just a gun sitting beside it? Yeah, 536 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: or the collection play, Yeah, has a gun? Like what 537 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 1: if the what if the Santa that is collecting coins 538 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: with the bell, what if he also is packing a 539 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: heat I don't know, I don't know if you saw this, 540 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: But actually the one of the authors here, Leonard Burkowitz, 541 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: is associated with an anti metaboli that he used to 542 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: communicate the results that he said he found here, and 543 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: the anti metaboli was, yes, it's true that the finger 544 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 1: pulls the trigger, but sometimes the trigger also pulls the finger. Yes, Yeah, 545 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: that's that's a that's a big one, and that of 546 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: course has been been echoed a lot, because as you 547 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: can well imagine, um, this isn't there's an argument that 548 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: definitely plays into the various discussions that have taken place 549 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: over the subsequent decades regarding weapons in society. Now, I 550 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: will say that one thing we know that this is 551 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: basically going to be one example of a study on 552 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: what's known as price aiming, right, the priming effects of 553 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: like seeing objects and how that affects cognition. And there 554 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,479 Speaker 1: are a lot of questions about priming studies, I mean, UH, 555 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,239 Speaker 1: and some priming effects really do seem to hold up 556 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: under subsequent testing. Some priming effects that people have found 557 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: UH in studies of decades past have really been undermined 558 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: by like failed replication attempts or later analyzes. So part 559 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: of the question would be, how does this uh supposed 560 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: priming effect discovered in the sixties hold up under scrutiny 561 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: and under review of all the subsequent research. Yeah, exactly, 562 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: because it's one thing for one study to observe this 563 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: back in the late sixties, but how does it hold 564 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: up over time and with different experiments, etcetera. So I 565 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: was looking at effects of weapons on aggressive thoughts, angry feelings, 566 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: hostile appraisals, and aggressive behavior. A meta analytic review of 567 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: the weapons effect uh literature, And this was by Benjamin 568 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: at all published in two thousand eighteen in the Personality 569 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: and Social psycholo Gy Review. In it, as the title implies, 570 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: the authors looked at various later experiments into the so 571 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: called weapons effect. Uh. Yeah, because basically there have been 572 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: numerous versions of this experiment over the last fifty three years. 573 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: And this isn't even the first meta analysis all of them. 574 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: It's just one of the it's either the most recent 575 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: or the most recent one that turned up when I 576 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: was looking around. But but these are the big takeaways 577 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: that Benjamin at all Um put out there. First of all, 578 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,959 Speaker 1: weapons do appear to increase aggressive thoughts and hostile appraisals, 579 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,719 Speaker 1: although their effect on aggressive behavior is currently less clear. Uh. 580 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: That's a that's a direct quote from the paper. But 581 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: they also say that the relationship to that for the 582 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: relationship to become more clear, we need quote higher powered 583 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: studies with provocation manipulation. Provocation manipulation. The hairs on the 584 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: back of my next stand up at those two words 585 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: but yeah, So what they're saying is that when you 586 00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: look at all of these studies over the years and 587 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: you do a meta analysis, meaning you sort of like 588 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: average all the results together and look at them in total. Uh, 589 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: it does seem pretty clear that the seeing weapons around 590 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: the presence of weapons or weapon imagery, it makes people's 591 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: thoughts more aggressive, and it increases people's tendency to perceive hostility, 592 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: but there's not necessarily evidence that it makes them act 593 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: more aggressive in an external way. Right. Yeah, It's an 594 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: area whereas this is often the case, more more research 595 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: is required. Yeah, And I gotta say I think this 596 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: is one realm where a meta analysis is very important 597 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: rather than just looking at one study here or there. 598 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: Because I don't have any way to prove this, but 599 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: I have a pretty strong gut feeling that, like guns, 600 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: psychology research is an area of research where there are 601 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: probably some people messing around in this field with some 602 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: kind of political acts to grind one way or another, 603 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: And so you probably could get some individual studies that 604 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: are less objective than one would hope. Yeah. Yeah, And 605 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: and likewise, there's plenty of room for cherry picking from 606 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: these studies as well. Like if you don't like the 607 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: idea of the weapons effect, then yeah, you can definitely 608 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: find some some studies that fail to replicate it, right, 609 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: uh And and meta analysis is helpful for multiple reasons. 610 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: There was another thing that they looked into. One of 611 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: the major factors tempering their findings here is a question 612 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: of publication bias in the literature on the weapons effect. 613 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: So I'll briefly explain what they called the naive meta analysis, 614 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: which basically just means you average together all the results 615 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: of the studies they looked at without doing any like 616 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: correcting for potential biases and the results. You just take 617 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: the results at face value and put them all together, 618 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: look at them against one another, and see what you find. 619 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: And they found that this naive mean definitely confirmed that 620 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: merely quote, seeing a weapon can increase aggressive thoughts, hostile appraisals, 621 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: and aggressive behavior. But they also ran a meta analysis 622 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,719 Speaker 1: using techniques that are designed to techt signs of publication bias. 623 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: Publication bias, of course, is not a problem just with 624 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: this subject. It's a major problem affecting the quality of 625 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: all kinds of scientific literature, I think, especially in the 626 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: social sciences. And it basically goes like this, Studies that 627 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: find a significant result are more likely to be published 628 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: than studies that test for something and find no evidence, 629 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: also known as a null result. And this is actually 630 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: a problem because it leads to biases in the existing literature. 631 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:35,719 Speaker 1: If Alice doesn't experiment and finds some interesting hypothesis is confirmed, 632 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: and then Bob doesn't experiment that does not yield any 633 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: kind of solid conclusion, and then Alice publishes and Bob 634 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: does not this, and then this kind of keeps happening. 635 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: This can give us an inaccurate picture when we try 636 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: to run a meta analysis on the existing literature UH, 637 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: and that this publication disparity could also potentially pressure researchers 638 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: to UH perhaps unconsciously, probably unconsciously to the time, lean 639 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: into UH study designs and manipulations that would try to 640 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: get a significant result showing something something interesting that you 641 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: can report apart from just saying like, yeah, we looked 642 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: and we didn't find anything. And this is why it's 643 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:21,280 Speaker 1: important to publish and reward well executed studies that receive 644 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: a null result. And I understand the difficulty with that, 645 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: like I try to remember to mention them on the 646 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: show when I come across them. But I admit it's 647 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: a lot harder to make a good podcast talking about 648 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,320 Speaker 1: a bunch of studies that just didn't find anything interesting. So, 649 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: you know, it's definitely something that modern science is struggling with. 650 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,240 Speaker 1: But it's also a good thing that researchers are aware 651 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: of it, looking out for it and trying to come 652 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: up with ways of detecting the bias when it occurs. 653 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: But anyway, with regards to this particular literature, what what 654 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: did the researchers find? How how does publication bias affect 655 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: the weapons effect? Well, it looks like it does not 656 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: erase it, but it does appear to reduce the magnitude 657 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: of it and to affect some of the conditions in 658 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: which it applies. So, to read from their discussion section quote, 659 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: the naive meta analysis showed that the weapons effect is 660 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 1: quite robust. It occurred inside and outside the lab for 661 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: many different kinds of weapons e g. Guns, knives, spears, swords, 662 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: hand grenades, for real and toy weapons, for males and females, 663 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: for college students and non students, and for people of 664 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,959 Speaker 1: all ages, regardless of whether they were provoked. For some distributions, 665 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: the weapons effect was also robust to the influence of 666 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: publication bias and or outliers. Yet for other distributions, the 667 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 1: weapons effect was not robust these phenomena. The results from 668 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: the sensitivity analysis, and that's the the analysis they ran 669 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 1: to look for publication bias, showed that a publication bias 670 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: had a small to moderate impact on the cognitive and 671 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: appraisal outcomes. Given the difficulty in triangulating around a likely 672 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,800 Speaker 1: true effect size for affective and behave of your outcomes 673 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: for instance, we recommend interpreting their mean estimates with considerable caution. 674 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: So as best I can tell from these results, it 675 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,359 Speaker 1: looks to me like the weapons effect is probably real 676 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: on average with regards to cognition how it affects what 677 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: we're thinking about, But the size of the effect maybe 678 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 1: a good bit smaller than some studies have suggested. So 679 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: so maybe a gun on the table makes your cognition 680 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,760 Speaker 1: a little more violent. Yeah, they also write that quote. Overall, 681 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: the magnitude of the weapons effect may even be increasing 682 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: over time, although that may be due to the fact 683 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: that much of this research has focused on cognitive and 684 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: appraisal outcomes since the nineties. That's a really interesting observation. 685 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: So so there are a couple of things here. It 686 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: could be an artifact of just how the studies have 687 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: evolved in their methodology and things like that. But if 688 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: that is real, I wonder what would explain that If 689 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: there's actually a more cognitive priming from the presence of 690 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: weapons now than there were like fifty years ago, what 691 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: would that mean? Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure. Um, you know, 692 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 1: ultimately in the paper they acknowledge that that, yes, technically, 693 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,280 Speaker 1: the the the adage is true, guns don't kill people. 694 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 1: People kill people, But the research does indicate that guns 695 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 1: are are not neutral stimuli. Right, So you can say, 696 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 1: even even if it's not, even if the magnitude of 697 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: the weapons effect is kind of in question, it does 698 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: seem to be there these it's not neutral stimuli, right. 699 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: And so I think this would be a counter to 700 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: anybody who who wants to argue, like, oh, a gun 701 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: is just a tool, you know, it's like whatever. No, 702 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: I mean, like, if there's a gun in the room 703 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: and people can see it, like their brains are going 704 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: to start behaving somewhat differently, right, And And I think 705 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: on on some level, I think most people realize that, 706 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 1: like isn't that one of the reasons you have the 707 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: gun on the wall right for people to see it, 708 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: or in the back of the truck or what have you. 709 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: But again, the extent of which weapons actually influenced aggressive 710 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 1: behavior that remains debated and in need of further study. UM. 711 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 1: I mentioned already that you can find some cases where, uh, 712 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: they were not able to replicate the weapons effect in studies. Um. 713 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: And then there there's some other interesting cases as well, 714 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 1: study from Click and mcelreth that even turned up a 715 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: reverse weapons effect, which at least suggests that there there's 716 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: a lot more going on than an ABC sort of 717 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: reaction to seeing a weapon. But it's also worth noting 718 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: that it's pretty much impossible to fully conduct a real 719 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: world test off the weapons effect, as it could potentially, 720 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: you know, concern aggressive behavior. Uh, but it's it's still 721 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: an official stopping point in considering such topics as gun control, 722 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: violent media, and toy guns. Yeah, totally. I mean, I 723 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,240 Speaker 1: think this is a very interesting and fruitful realm of research. 724 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, more more on gun psychology. Absolutely, it certainly 725 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,280 Speaker 1: made me think more about how many you know, manifestations 726 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: of a gun I encounter in just an average day, 727 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: you know, like all my hobbies see too, in some 728 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: at some level or another involve the gun. Like I'm 729 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: painting these little miniatures, and and yeah, there's like I 730 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,400 Speaker 1: was just I was counting the other day while I 731 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: was at my laptop. My painting stuff was on a 732 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: tray next to my laptop, and I counted, like I think, uh, 733 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:20,359 Speaker 1: counting both physical models and illustrations and some instructions. There 734 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: were like two lightsabers and something like fifteen total blaster weapons, 735 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: you know. And then like if I'm playing a video game, 736 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: there's often some sort of a blasting weapon or a gun. 737 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: If I'm reading a book, there's often some sort of 738 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: conflict at the heart of it. You know, it's often 739 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: going to have laser guns or or some weapons gonna 740 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: show up at some point or another. Or it's gonna 741 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 1: be swords and whatnot, and even magic wands and wizard 742 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,439 Speaker 1: spells or ultimately some version of the weapon. Well, yeah, 743 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: I mean this comes back to something I was talking 744 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: about at the beginning, which is that when we let 745 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: our imaginations run wild. I mean, when we play, whether 746 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: that's as children or adults, and you know whatever the 747 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: adult uh mental operations are that we call play. A 748 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 1: lot of what we're gonna be doing is imagining potential 749 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,760 Speaker 1: or hypothetical conflicts, and those don't have to be violent conflicts. 750 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: You sometimes people imagine arguments that people imagine, you know, 751 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,760 Speaker 1: political squabbles and all that. But almost every good story 752 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: is about conflict of some kind, and one of the 753 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 1: major types of conflict is violent, deadly conflict. Yeah, I 754 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: just to drive this time. I'm recording in a closet 755 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: as usual, and I just counted eleven weapons uh on 756 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 1: on packaging or images or books. Uh you know, that's 757 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: the only thing is not not a weapon in an 758 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: illustration then as I'm looking around, or is a box 759 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: a boxed game of Ticket to Ride and a VHS 760 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,280 Speaker 1: of Jerry McGuire, And that's it. There are no guns 761 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:48,240 Speaker 1: in Jerry McGuire. It's it's I guess it's the cinema 762 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: of peace. That's true. Now, there was one really strange 763 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: thing that I was reading in the meta analysis you 764 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: brought up a minute ago. This is yet another thing 765 00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,080 Speaker 1: that could just be a sort of like artifact of 766 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,280 Speaker 1: of the existing research that isn't really robust, doesn't actually 767 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: mean anything, but it could be a real discovery, and 768 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: if it is, it's very intriguing to me. So to 769 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: read from their paper quote. One counterintuitive finding in our 770 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:18,319 Speaker 1: analyses concerned the comparison of real weapons and images of weapons. Specifically, 771 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 1: the magnitude of the effect for images of weapons was 772 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 1: larger than for real weapons. Although there is no particular 773 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: theoretical reason why there should be a difference between real 774 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: weapons and images of weapons, the difference was significant in 775 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 1: the naive meta analysis, and the difference remain significant after 776 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 1: taking publication bias and potential outliers into consideration. Perhaps participants 777 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: were more suspicious when they saw real weapons. I mean, 778 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 1: that seems sensible to me. Yeah, uh so, maybe you're 779 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: saying more so. I think the idea more suspicious is 780 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 1: that people's genuine reactions were maybe tempered in an experiment 781 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: where there's a real gun on the table because they 782 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,839 Speaker 1: feel like something's wrong here and you know that I'm 783 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: being provoked or like you know that, they detect the priming, 784 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 1: they start to understand what the experiment is testing for 785 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,239 Speaker 1: which they shouldn't in a well designed experiment, um, and 786 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: that affects what they actually report in the end. That's 787 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: a possibility another thing is just that. Yeah, it emerges 788 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,240 Speaker 1: some other strange artifact. But if that were a real effect, 789 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: I would wonder what could explain that. I mean, would 790 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: people actually be more primed to think host to to 791 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 1: like perceive hostility, and to think aggressive and violent thoughts 792 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: when they look at a picture of a gun rather 793 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 1: than when when they see a physical gun sitting in 794 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 1: front of them. Yeah, I mean, I guess, I mean, 795 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: the obvious answer that comes to mind, it might not 796 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: actually line up all that well, is just you know, 797 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: it is it is reality. It is a thing that 798 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 1: I can pick up and it will become it would 799 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,840 Speaker 1: become a part of my body schema, you know. And 800 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: it is also something that can can you have you 801 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 1: have used the right way or the wrong way, depending 802 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: how you want to look at it. Uh, could hurt me, 803 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 1: whereas the picture of the gun is not going to 804 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 1: hurt me. So you're saying that maybe the picture what's 805 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:11,640 Speaker 1: the logic there? You're saying, maybe the picture of the 806 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,239 Speaker 1: gun is just like would give you more freedom to 807 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 1: explore dangerous aggressive thoughts because there's not actually something you 808 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 1: need to be cautious about in your environment. I don't know, 809 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 1: like I said, I don't know if this this actually 810 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: has any any meat to it. Yeah, but uh yeah, 811 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:30,799 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, certainly we can. We can sort 812 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,800 Speaker 1: of bring in our own, um, you know, personal experience, 813 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,640 Speaker 1: like the difference between seeing a picture of a gun 814 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: and seeing somebody, say, with a gun. You know. But 815 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,360 Speaker 1: oh yeah, I guess now that I think about it, Okay, 816 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 1: So I can imagine, like I watch a scene of 817 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 1: violence in a movie and I can get like, I 818 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,439 Speaker 1: can get pumped up about it. I'm like, yeah, time 819 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: to fight. If I were to watch the same scene 820 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,880 Speaker 1: of violence play out in physical reality, like on the street, 821 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:58,920 Speaker 1: I would be like, oh my god, I've got to 822 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:03,360 Speaker 1: get away from here. So like maybe the physical reality 823 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:08,760 Speaker 1: of the weapon um produces a different a different cognitive response, 824 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 1: because like when it's just an image, you're more likely 825 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: to start fantasizing about violence, and when it's a physical reality, 826 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 1: you're more likely to respond with hesitation, caution, all that. Yeah, 827 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,200 Speaker 1: thank all right, Well at this point, let's get back 828 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,720 Speaker 1: into the discussion of aggressive play versus aggressive behavior with children. 829 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 1: A really great, great source that I enjoyed reading for 830 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 1: this is an article that popped up on Slate in 831 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: from Melinda Winner Moyer a science journalists science author who 832 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 1: I feel like you've probably if you've definitely encountered her 833 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: work before. She's been published in a number of different 834 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 1: major publications. She's written some books on parenting. And this 835 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 1: particular article is titled It's Fine for Kids to Play 836 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 1: with pretend Guns, which I suppose that kind of gives 837 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,480 Speaker 1: away the overall answers that she presents a the article, 838 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: but it's a great article, and it touches on some 839 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: of the key gun safety principles and modern parenting, you know, 840 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: such as not only properly storing guns and AMMO separately 841 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,840 Speaker 1: in a household, but also inquiring about gun safety at 842 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: any house that your child might be going over to. 843 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: Uh and how uh. You know, parents have have been 844 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:20,680 Speaker 1: pushing to just sort of make this a regular and 845 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: not weird part of our discourse, or you know, as 846 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:25,279 Speaker 1: as not weird as it can be. You know, it's 847 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:29,400 Speaker 1: just something you ask, something you inquire about. Um. And 848 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,040 Speaker 1: you know this, added with the reality that gun safety 849 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,720 Speaker 1: education is only so effective in preventing children from handling 850 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,879 Speaker 1: or playing with real firearms, you have given the opportunity, 851 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 1: which which is interesting to note because again coming back 852 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,319 Speaker 1: to how we think about our own lives versus the statistics. 853 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: It's easy to think, well, well, my child knows the 854 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 1: difference between a real gun and a fake gun, or 855 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,880 Speaker 1: my child, I've gone over some of the safety tips, 856 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 1: you know, maybe I've even a roll and roll the 857 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,080 Speaker 1: child in some sort of class. They're going to know 858 00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,200 Speaker 1: how to be safe with a gun. But yuh, it 859 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,640 Speaker 1: doesn't look like the research actually lines up with this, 860 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: um and there have been some very recent studies on 861 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 1: this to back it up. Study from Rutgers University found 862 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,480 Speaker 1: that gun safety programs do not prevent children from handling firearms. 863 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,200 Speaker 1: And then there was also a presentation at the American 864 00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 1: Academy of Pediatrics there two thousand eighteen National Conference and 865 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:26,120 Speaker 1: Exhibition UH that found that most children surveyed couldn't tell 866 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,719 Speaker 1: real guns from toy guns. Yeah, I was reading about 867 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 1: that one. Actually, that's a and and here's a question 868 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,239 Speaker 1: came up in twenty seventeen. Are children who see movie 869 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,520 Speaker 1: characters using guns more likely to use them? Well, this 870 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,200 Speaker 1: particular study published in um Jam of Pediatrics found that 871 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,960 Speaker 1: children who watched a PG rated movie clip containing guns 872 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,840 Speaker 1: played with a disabled real gun longer and pulled the 873 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,000 Speaker 1: trigger more often than children who saw the same movie 874 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 1: not containing guns. Not super surprising. Kids love to act 875 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,200 Speaker 1: out scenes from movies that they've liked. Yeah, and I 876 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 1: bring us up to that. I think it's all good 877 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,400 Speaker 1: information to have in your head regarding your expectations of 878 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,279 Speaker 1: even your own perfect child. You know, Um, this is 879 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,040 Speaker 1: just kids statistically based on these studies. Now, a lawyer 880 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 1: goes goes on from all this, the points out that 881 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,319 Speaker 1: you know, first of all, aggression play is of course 882 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:22,040 Speaker 1: normal and especially noted among boys. Uh. And and in 883 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,839 Speaker 1: in boys and among boys, you know, in individual boys, 884 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,280 Speaker 1: but then also when boys play together. In two thousand, 885 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 1: two thirteen study from Fair and Russ Early Education and 886 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:36,279 Speaker 1: Development is the publication. The research has found that preschoolers 887 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 1: who engaged in oral aggression play, such as having one 888 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 1: stuffed animal bite the hell out of another stuffed animal. Uh, 889 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,920 Speaker 1: these children were less aggressive in the classroom. And the 890 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,480 Speaker 1: speculation here is the more violence that kids incorporate into 891 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:54,280 Speaker 1: their pretend play, the more they may learn to control 892 00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,440 Speaker 1: violent impulses in real life and control their own emotions. 893 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,000 Speaker 1: And uh, and you've seen even stronger emphasis on all 894 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,080 Speaker 1: of this a two thousand thirteen paper by Heart and 895 00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:08,400 Speaker 1: Tannic published in Children Australia even speculated that we may 896 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,239 Speaker 1: be interfering with a child social emotional, physical, cognitive, and 897 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,319 Speaker 1: communicative development if we try to prevent them from play 898 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,280 Speaker 1: fighting and engaging in this kind of like creative play aggression. 899 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,560 Speaker 1: Now there's some caveats here that that Moyer points out. 900 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,319 Speaker 1: First of all, if a child is actually hurting other 901 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,120 Speaker 1: kids during play fighting, then there may be some impulse 902 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: control issues there. It might be something that that requires 903 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,239 Speaker 1: further attention. It also might be of concern if there 904 00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 1: is no imagination involved in the process, if it is, 905 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 1: as Moyer puts it, a case of a child simply 906 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,320 Speaker 1: hitting one toy with the other over and over again. 907 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,799 Speaker 1: So narrative ultimately seems to be important part of all 908 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,239 Speaker 1: of this also makes sense. Yeah, so the creation of 909 00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,839 Speaker 1: violent or war narrative seems to be key, Moyer says, 910 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: because mirror imitation, let's say, recreating a key battle seen 911 00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,960 Speaker 1: from Star Wars is not engage in the sort of 912 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,719 Speaker 1: play that actually works out problems. And I have to 913 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,239 Speaker 1: say I found this pretty interesting, you know, from a 914 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,440 Speaker 1: personal standpoint, but also just looking at toys, because there 915 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,480 Speaker 1: are a lot of toys and play sets out there 916 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,320 Speaker 1: that that aim that that sell themselves on providing you 917 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,920 Speaker 1: with the tools to just recreate pivotal scenes in a 918 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,640 Speaker 1: lot of movies. Um, it's certainly the case with say 919 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:23,799 Speaker 1: Star Wars and Lego for example. You know you'll find 920 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,880 Speaker 1: sets that are all about like key duels, key action scenes. 921 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,960 Speaker 1: But it may not be that wrote reproduction of key 922 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,440 Speaker 1: scenes that's important, but the creation of different narratives. Well, 923 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,080 Speaker 1: I gotta say, and unfortunately this is just anecdotal again, 924 00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,040 Speaker 1: but you know, in my memory of childhood, there was 925 00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,960 Speaker 1: a ton of recreating with toys and just out of 926 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:49,200 Speaker 1: pure imagination play in both cases just recreating scenes directly 927 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,759 Speaker 1: from movies, but also a lot of times I feel 928 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,120 Speaker 1: like that type of play would evolve. So you would 929 00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,520 Speaker 1: start by recreating a scene in a movie with legos 930 00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,920 Speaker 1: or with toys, and then it would turn into what 931 00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,880 Speaker 1: happens next, and then from there you just sort of 932 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,160 Speaker 1: branch out. Yeah, yeah, I I definitely see this in 933 00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,520 Speaker 1: my own son, Like I remember him building this, putting 934 00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,040 Speaker 1: up a battle scene with Legos and he was like, Dad, 935 00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,759 Speaker 1: this is the second battle of Enosis, And I was 936 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,000 Speaker 1: like all right, and uh, but then it it did 937 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,640 Speaker 1: evolved from there to where now it's it's a different 938 00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:23,960 Speaker 1: battle scene every time I go into his room and 939 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,440 Speaker 1: they're off in these little side things he's set up 940 00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,600 Speaker 1: where it's like Clone troopers camping and looking after an 941 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,400 Speaker 1: animal or some other like. It's it's kind of an 942 00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,360 Speaker 1: interesting puzzle to try and put together the narratives that 943 00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,200 Speaker 1: he's clearly playing out in all of these little scenes. 944 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,239 Speaker 1: Are they ever looking over a baby Yoda? We don't 945 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,799 Speaker 1: have a baby Yoda yet, so maybe maybe by by 946 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:46,719 Speaker 1: the time Christmas rolls around, they'll be a little baby 947 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,160 Speaker 1: Yoda Yoda for them to interact with. What do you think? 948 00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,080 Speaker 1: What do you think the next Star Wars baby is 949 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 1: going to be? So we've had baby Yoda, I'm thinking 950 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:57,080 Speaker 1: about baby Darth Maul. Can you get a baby Darth Maul? Well, yeah, 951 00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,160 Speaker 1: you could definitely have a baby of his species. I 952 00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:01,920 Speaker 1: mean on the Clone War series you had a baby 953 00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:06,800 Speaker 1: hut you had a Hutlet and that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, 954 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,360 Speaker 1: I guess I gotta watch this. Yeah, I said that 955 00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,239 Speaker 1: a bunch of times on the show. Now my son 956 00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,239 Speaker 1: informs me that in some Star Wars Lego show, there's 957 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,200 Speaker 1: a baby wampa that's super adorable as well. So I mean, really, 958 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,480 Speaker 1: you make a baby out of anything in the Star 959 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:22,719 Speaker 1: Wars universe versu it's going to be adorable. But you 960 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,840 Speaker 1: get that wampa. It's cute. When it's a baby, it 961 00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:26,640 Speaker 1: starts to grow up. You can't just flush it down 962 00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,680 Speaker 1: the toilet like an alligator. Don't do that to alligators, 963 00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:35,359 Speaker 1: by the way, don't buy baby alligators, but or baby wampa. Now, 964 00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,560 Speaker 1: now this isn't to say that parents can't or shouldn't 965 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,960 Speaker 1: enter into this sort of thing, that they shouldn't interrupt 966 00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,719 Speaker 1: or maybe not interrupt, but but at least, uh, you know, 967 00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,719 Speaker 1: converse with their child about these sort of holy experiments 968 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,799 Speaker 1: and conflict play UM and Moyer sites. Diane Levin, an 969 00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:57,160 Speaker 1: early and education specialist at Wheelock College in Boston, UH 970 00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,239 Speaker 1: and the author of the war play Dilemma. Levin says 971 00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:02,520 Speaker 1: that you can you can ask follow up questions to 972 00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,600 Speaker 1: statements about, say, killing bad guys, with questions like, well, 973 00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:08,719 Speaker 1: what did the bad guy do? Is there anything else 974 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,600 Speaker 1: that can be done besides killing the bad guy? Uh? 975 00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,520 Speaker 1: You know, there are conversations you can have about conflict 976 00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:18,080 Speaker 1: in the nature of conflict and how this imagined conflict 977 00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,239 Speaker 1: lines up with real life. Plus, they point out that 978 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,440 Speaker 1: trying to prevent things like gun play, you know, are 979 00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,839 Speaker 1: likely to backfire anyway, making it more desirable. So it's 980 00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:30,520 Speaker 1: best to engage in conversations about it, like it better 981 00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:32,480 Speaker 1: to have the conflict play is allowed, but it's something 982 00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:35,400 Speaker 1: we can have conversations about, so that we can you know, 983 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:39,399 Speaker 1: you can have these these important conversations about how real 984 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,319 Speaker 1: conflict works and the ramifications of violence in the real world. Yeah, 985 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,880 Speaker 1: you don't want to just send the gun play underground? Yeah, Now. 986 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,080 Speaker 1: I think it's also worth noting that some of this 987 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,799 Speaker 1: would seem to go far beyond anything specifically involving guns 988 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,800 Speaker 1: and weapons. For instance, a June study from the University 989 00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:00,799 Speaker 1: of Cambridge found that children's children whose father make time 990 00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,160 Speaker 1: to play with them from a very early age may 991 00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:07,040 Speaker 1: find it easier to control their behavior and emotions as 992 00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,719 Speaker 1: they grow up. And the key distinction here, and I 993 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:11,880 Speaker 1: think I think one worth pointing out for single parents 994 00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:14,480 Speaker 1: and saying the same sex parents is that it's not 995 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,520 Speaker 1: it's not about the you know, the gender of the father, etcetera. 996 00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,719 Speaker 1: It's about a more physical play style and stuff like 997 00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:25,319 Speaker 1: quote tickling, chasing, and piggyback rides. But this studying question 998 00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,640 Speaker 1: looked at forty years of research and found quote a 999 00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:32,520 Speaker 1: consistent correlation between father child play and children's subsequent ability 1000 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,040 Speaker 1: to control their feelings. So play more in the domain 1001 00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:42,360 Speaker 1: of rough housing maybe sometimes helps children understand understand boundaries 1002 00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:47,239 Speaker 1: better and and control their their outbursts and impulses. Yeah, 1003 00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:49,160 Speaker 1: and so like this is me, not the study, but 1004 00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:51,680 Speaker 1: I instantly think of the times when I've been kind 1005 00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,560 Speaker 1: of playing rough with the kiddo and I get kind 1006 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,480 Speaker 1: of clocked, you know, or something ends up really hurting. 1007 00:53:57,560 --> 00:53:59,600 Speaker 1: Like like maybe that kind of thing is a part 1008 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:04,880 Speaker 1: of of understanding like you know, restrain and the boundaries 1009 00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:08,120 Speaker 1: of physical aggression, etcetera. You find out what too rough 1010 00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:13,000 Speaker 1: is by by like going there with a responsible adult present, Right, 1011 00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:15,920 Speaker 1: All right, Well we're gonna go and close it out there. Um, 1012 00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,000 Speaker 1: you know, hopefully just gave everybody a little you know, 1013 00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,640 Speaker 1: food for thought, and we would love to hear from 1014 00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:22,360 Speaker 1: everybody out there if you have any thoughts on what 1015 00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,360 Speaker 1: we discussed here today, you know, especially in and around 1016 00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:27,759 Speaker 1: the holidays, when inevitably there's gonna there are going to 1017 00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,760 Speaker 1: be toy weapons under the tree. They might be human size, 1018 00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,719 Speaker 1: they might be very miniature. Uh, they might be for 1019 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:36,759 Speaker 1: grown ups, they might be for kids. But you know, 1020 00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:38,120 Speaker 1: what are we supposed to do with that? How are 1021 00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:40,560 Speaker 1: we supposed to to think about these things? Uh? So 1022 00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:42,560 Speaker 1: I thought it was a good a good episode to 1023 00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:46,680 Speaker 1: roll out this time of year. Oh man. One we 1024 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,359 Speaker 1: didn't even get into toy weapons for adults, such as 1025 00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:52,880 Speaker 1: like what do you call it when like an adult 1026 00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:56,200 Speaker 1: person buys a buys a sword. They're not planning on 1027 00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,239 Speaker 1: using it in battle, they just wanted to have it. Yeah, 1028 00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:01,160 Speaker 1: that you want to put a on the wall, which 1029 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:03,680 Speaker 1: of course you know if you if you think about 1030 00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:05,680 Speaker 1: the weapons effect, Yeah, that that means every time I 1031 00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,520 Speaker 1: walk into the living room, I'm gonna be touched by 1032 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:12,280 Speaker 1: the weapons effect, right, Um, it's yeah, it's it's interesting. 1033 00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,200 Speaker 1: I mean then also, you if you buy that sword 1034 00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:16,680 Speaker 1: to put on the wall, you are going to hold 1035 00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:21,040 Speaker 1: it at some point if you, um, you might film 1036 00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:24,200 Speaker 1: yourself on your phone doing tricks with it. Yeah, it's 1037 00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:27,399 Speaker 1: it's gonna happen. Um, if you have a rental house 1038 00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 1: and you put on like Airbnb or something, and you 1039 00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:31,799 Speaker 1: have a sword on the wall. People who stay there 1040 00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:33,680 Speaker 1: are going to try and take the sword off the wall. 1041 00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,560 Speaker 1: It's it's they're they're gonna go for it, even if 1042 00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:38,120 Speaker 1: it's fixed in place. It's gonna be like the sword 1043 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:41,920 Speaker 1: in the stone bolt that sucker down. Yeah, all right, 1044 00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:44,400 Speaker 1: we're gonna go and close it out then. Um. In 1045 00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:46,160 Speaker 1: the meantime, if you want to check out other episodes 1046 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:47,600 Speaker 1: of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you can find us 1047 00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,279 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast, wherever that happens to be. 1048 00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:54,240 Speaker 1: We just hope that you rate, review, and subscribe. Episodes 1049 00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,080 Speaker 1: of Stuff to Blow Your Mind come out on Tuesdays 1050 00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:59,040 Speaker 1: and Thursdays. We have some other shorter content that comes 1051 00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,960 Speaker 1: out on days and Wednesdays. Fridays that's gonna be Weird 1052 00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:05,120 Speaker 1: House Cinema, and then what on Saturday you get a 1053 00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:09,719 Speaker 1: repeat episode. So it's a full a full menu of possibilities. 1054 00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:14,200 Speaker 1: Your audio stockings are stuffed anyway, huge thanks as always 1055 00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:17,080 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you 1056 00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:18,920 Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 1057 00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,080 Speaker 1: on this episode or any other to suggest topic for 1058 00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:23,279 Speaker 1: the future, just to say hello, you can email us 1059 00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,879 Speaker 1: at contact at stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com 1060 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:35,960 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 1061 00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,239 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart radiosit the iHeart Radio app, 1062 00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,160 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.