WEBVTT - Thursday Therapy: The Other Side of OCD 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.520 The following podcast contains very sensitive information regarding intrusive thoughts, 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:09.039 sexual assault, and suicide. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:15.120 Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart radio podcast. 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:18.560 This week's Thursday episode, We've got a Legra cast In's on. 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:22.160 So she's a licensed marriage and family therapist. She has 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:26.079 a master's degree in clinical psychology from Pepperdine. She is 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:29.680 the founder of the Center of OCD, Anxiety and Eating Disorders. 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.159 She sees clients out of her New York office as 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:36.640 well as via teletherapy. So she specializes in the treatment 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:42.720 of obsessive compulsive disorder, anxiety disorders, body focused repetitive behaviors, 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:47.760 and eating disorders. And she has a podcast called Books, Looks, 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:51.120 and Lobotomies. And she's currently writing a memoir. So let's 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:51.559 get her on. 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:56.000 Hello, HOI you did, I'm good? How are you? 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.080 I'm good. I'm Jana. This is my husband Alan Leice 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.080 to me to meet you too. Hello. Hello, So we're 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:04.720 excited to have you on to chat all things. I 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:06.760 kind of want to just take it back though to 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:09.720 the very beginning. When did you well, when did you 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:15.120 first realize that you were We're dealing with OCD. 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:20.560 So I was nineteen years old, and well, actually nineteen 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:22.679 was when I had my onset of symptoms that just 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:25.320 debilitated me. So it was like, in point two seconds 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:27.959 everything changed. It felt like a flip switched to my 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:31.240 mind and I started having repetitive intrusive thoughts. 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:31.720 All day long. 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:36.280 But I didn't actually get diagnosed for another fifteen months, 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:38.680 so I think I was twenty years old when that happened. 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:41.720 What was the thing that was like happening that You're like, oh, 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:44.240 this is this is OCD? 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:48.000 So I was having and I don't know how much 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:50.880 you know about OCD, but I was having repetitive, unwanted 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:54.680 sexual thoughts about kids and animals and family members, and 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:57.280 it was the last thing that I wanted to think about, 0:01:57.320 --> 0:01:59.920 but it just kept popping into my mind all day long. 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.280 So at first I didn't associate that with OCD because 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:06.880 I thought OCD was a disorder of cleanliness and organization. 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:10.280 And when I finally googled after fifteen months, like why 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:13.200 am I having these terrifying thoughts? OCD came up on 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:16.600 the Internet and that kind of changed my whole life. 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.120 I had no idea personally, I thought it was something 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:22.360 where I heard the clean thing, but also it's like 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.360 you touch the same spot every single day or is 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:26.840 that part of OCD too. 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:31.000 Yeah, I think so. I always gauge things around professional sports, 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:33.440 and you hear coaches say all the time when they 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:35.880 misplace their cones and they have to walk back and 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:38.680 replace them and then walk back and replate, like, Oh, 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:42.200 it's just my OCD, But it's not. It's you don't 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:44.600 have OCD, you have an attention for detail. There is 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:46.760 a big, big difference. And I looked into it a 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:54.520 little bit yesterday and it's amazing how it affects people's life. 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:57.880 But at what point did it become dangerous for you 0:02:59.120 --> 0:02:59.880 in your life? 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:03.799 So that's you know, it's a tough question because I 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.320 was what we call high functioning. I was working in 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.400 Los Angeles at the time as a publicist, and I 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:12.640 think being very high functioning masked a lot of my suffering. 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:15.120 But it got to a point where I was in 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:17.200 trigger warning I'm going to talk about suicide, where I 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:19.919 wanted to kill myself because I didn't want to live 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:23.200 with these thoughts anymore. And I had been getting in 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:25.960 a lot of car accidents because I couldn't focus, Like 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:28.280 I just kept having the scariest thoughts replay over and 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:31.720 over and over, and when I wanted to end my 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.440 life because of this, that is when I really thought 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:36.120 like I need to get some kind of help or 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:36.920 I will be dead. 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:39.520 I must be really tough. I mean, you know what 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:42.560 it's like in period in life where you don't your 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:46.520 decision making and trusting your own decision making is as vital. 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:50.440 And for that to be, I mean, how much does 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.280 it affect your decision making and your normal function on 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:56.840 a daily basis, because your decision making is everything and life. 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.560 Yeah, now I am at a place of recut, so 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.640 I would say I don't meet diagnostic criteria for OCD. 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:06.800 But when I was really sick, it took up every 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:09.320 single second of my day, Like there was not a 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:11.920 second that I wasn't having a scary thought or doing 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:14.760 a mental compulsion like ruminating about why I was having 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:18.760 these thoughts, And it became really hard to trust myself. 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:20.720 Like I knew, I knew I. 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:22.400 Was born to be a mom. That's just something that 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.080 I've always known about myself. I've always loved kids. I 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.680 worked with kids before the onset of my OCD, and 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:30.400 so when this happened and out of the blue, I 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.880 started having scary sexual thoughts about kids, it made me 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:37.479 doubt myself and the kind of person that I was. 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:40.120 And I think it's it's a scary experience for a 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:42.200 lot of people with OCD because you know who you are, 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.359 but you have these really odd thoughts in your brain 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:46.360 that are trying to tell you that you're something that. 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:46.719 You are not. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.279 So it really attacked my whole identity and at a 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:53.160 time in my life where I think, nineteen twenty years old, 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:56.080 you're already kind of trying to find yourself, and that 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:59.520 really impaired a lot of different areas of my life. 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.320 I have two kind of questions around it. At the first, 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:06.479 So were you nervous to speak about the things that 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:08.960 you were dealing with because I could sense some or 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:13.120 I could imagine people hear that and they're like, oh, 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:16.279 stay away from my kids, or something like a thousand Yeah. 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:17.440 Oh, I was terrified. 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:19.760 I didn't even want to google it because I didn't 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:21.800 want like, I didn't want to google why am I 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.159 having these scary thoughts about kids? Because I didn't want 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:26.800 the Internet to say you're a pedophile because I knew 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:27.360 that I wasn't. 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:29.640 I was not getting enjoyment out of these thoughts. 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:33.320 OCD is very egodystonic, Like I knew that this wasn't me, 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:35.800 and then I was really afraid to tell a doctor 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:38.600 because I didn't want them to tell me you must 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.440 be a pedophile, because I knew so deeply that I wasn't. 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:44.080 And that's a fear a lot of people with OCD have, 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:48.599 whether it's postpartum obsessions about one's baby harm obsessions, like 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:50.599 they worry that they're going to go see a therapist 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:54.360 who doesn't understand OCD and then says you're a killer, 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:57.160 or you're going to drown your baby, or you're a pedophile, 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:59.560 and that's actually the last thing that the person is. 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:04.840 So now that you've gotten, you know through through the 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.760 work of all this, like what was the do you 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:09.520 know why it comes up? And then how was the 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:11.240 like the healing to get through it? 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:13.880 I really wish I had that answer, And I'm writing 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.560 a memoir right now, and like that is the question 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:19.080 that I probably won't ever have an answer to. We 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:22.760 don't know what causes OCD right now. It's often people 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:27.160 think it's a mix of genetics, biology, environment, So if 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:29.920 you have trauma growing up, that might contribute to it. 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:32.560 And I was anorexic at the time, so I think 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.880 that me being anarexic struggling with an eating disorder and 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:39.960 not eating enough probably contributed to my brain not functioning 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.480 as well as it should have. But I don't think 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:46.479 I'll ever know what caused this, and that is kind 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:49.280 of scary if I think about it, because I guess 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:51.320 I never know if I'm going to have that like 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:53.839 relapse of symptoms again in that way. 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:55.720 So how did you get through it? 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:55.920 Then? 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:58.279 What were the If someone else is listening to this, 0:06:58.320 --> 0:06:59.919 they're like, oh my gosh, same and I've been to 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:01.560 or ified to admit it. So thank you, you know, 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:04.200 for sharing for those that can, because you're going to 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:07.080 be helping people obviously through sharing everything you share. So 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:09.520 what was the first thing you did and how what 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:10.560 were the steps following? 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.840 So I saw a therapist who understood OCD, which was 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:19.160 really helpful. And there's a specific evidence based treatment for OCD. 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:22.120 It's not like general talk therapy that you might do. 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:26.040 It's cognitive behavioral therapy with an emphasis on exposure and 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:30.080 response prevention. So I started seeing a therapist who understood OCD, 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.080 and then I also started taking medication, which I'm not 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.400 saying that other people have to, but that was also 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:38.560 a really big tool in my healing journey, like quieted 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:41.040 the thoughts down, I didn't feel as anxious, and it 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:42.960 enabled me to do the therapy work. 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.000 I'm just curious what medicine. 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:48.760 I'm on, Prozac, prozach okay, yes, yes. 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:50.720 Just curious if I had anything, because I used to 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.560 take lexapro. So I was just wondering, like which ones 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.040 stimulate certain different SSRIs or whatever. 0:07:57.360 --> 0:07:58.400 It depends on the person. 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.040 Which is another shitty Like I had to go through 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.480 four medications and three different doctors to find a doctor 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:06.960 and a med that actually worked for me, And that 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:11.160 can be really scary for people who want that fix quickly, 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:12.800 to feel like a guinea pig. 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.240 Yeah, it just it just amazes me because there's a 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:23.320 perception of what an outside perception of what OCD is like, 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:28.400 to give an example, like, and it's a poor perspective really, 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.160 Like to give an example, I used to play soccer 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.480 and there was a period where I was walking the 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:36.760 team out and I was a captain, right and I was, 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:39.600 I had so many superstitions, so been interesting to see 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:43.839 what the links are between superstitions and OCD. Because there's 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.160 one time we were just walking the team out. I 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:48.400 was going in the field and like, my shoes are 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:50.640 facing the wrong way in the locker room, and I 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:54.640 left my teammates and walked back like eighty yards so 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.880 that I could put my shoes back the right way, 0:08:57.960 --> 0:08:59.480 just so that I thought, because I thought that would 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:03.040 ruin my performance. So it'd be amazing. I'd be amazed 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:05.920 to see the links between what people think are superstitions 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:07.840 and think are OCD when it's not. It's just a 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:12.080 it's just a stupid superstition based on which is essentially 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:14.199 what it is, based on what you think how it's 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:16.680 going to affect your day and affect your performance. And 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:19.920 when I read I didn't take a deep dive, but 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:22.880 I read about OCD, and I'm like, wow, it's so 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.600 far from what you think it is it really is 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:28.640 and what and what the public perceivers is o c D. 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.640 And it actually really amazed me, Like even like I 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:33.839 seen I saw one of your posts yesterday. It was 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:44.040 about you having intrusive thoughts on a plane yes, related 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:45.840 to me because Janna is not a good flyer. 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.440 I'm like, and I'm constantly thinking, is it Does that 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.760 mean I'm OCD? Then? Because but I have like thoughts 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:54.800 all the time. I'm like about the plane going down, 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:56.440 and then what's going to happen? And then like am 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:57.920 I gonna have to do this? And I have like 0:09:58.040 --> 0:09:59.960 thirty different steps of what I'm doing on the plane? 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:03.160 Yeah, so my question what are those intrusives? So if 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:04.960 you're in the exit role of a flight, yeah, what 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.920 goes through your head and makes it so dangerous for you? 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.600 So like now I can laugh about it because I'm 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:12.880 in a place of recovery. And by the way, like 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:16.400 anybody can have an intrusive thought, For the person with OCD, 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:20.240 it's repetitive, it tends to stick, and the person is 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:24.440 performing mental, mental, and or physical compulsions that take up 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:26.240 an hour of their day. So if you have a 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:29.520 random intrusive thought, that doesn't automatically mean that you have OCD. 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:32.080 For me, I was able to just say, like, that's 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:34.360 a ridiculous thought and get on with it. But ten 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:37.800 years ago that would have consumed my entire flight, Like 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:39.800 I probably would have wanted to get up and move 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:41.480 to a different row, because I would have been so 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:43.840 afraid that I could just snap and open up the 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:44.720 door midflight. 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.240 And then what so, okay, so you say that, and 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:48.880 then what are the other actions that you say go 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:50.120 along with it for the next hour. 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.520 So mental compulsions are big, and a lot of people 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:56.400 don't understand that. They think if someone has OCD, I'll 0:10:56.400 --> 0:11:00.240 see them redoing something or sanitizing. For me, all of 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:02.800 my compulsions were mental. So they might sit there ruminating 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:05.280 about whether or not they actually want to open the door. 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:08.880 They might mentally review the past to see if there 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.720 are any instances that confirm that they could be a killer, 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:16.600 or they could reassure themselves internally. They could neutralize their 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:19.600 thoughts constantly repeating I'm not going to do that, I'm 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:20.280 not going to do that. 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:22.640 So a lot of mental compulsions for people. 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:39.120 I'm wondering now is like my anxiety actually OCD. 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:44.600 Well, there's a complete deference on how anxiety affects. You'll see, 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:45.679 like I was reading, but. 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:49.439 I obsess of things like mentally in my brain. 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:53.440 Anxiety is your perception of yourself. 0:11:53.800 --> 0:12:01.959 That is fear too of like unknown. 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.920 Tell us the difference for sure between anxiety and OCD. 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.080 With OCD, there tends to be what we call obsessional 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:10.000 doubt or pathological doubt. So the person is doubting what 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.360 they know. Like I know that I'm not a pedophile, 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:14.360 but I keep having these thoughts about that. I know 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.160 that I'm not a killer, but these thoughts keep popping 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:19.360 into my mind. So there's a lot of doubt that 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:23.240 is not super rational. And there's also a lot of anxiety. 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:28.040 With generalized anxiety, someone might be experiencing an excessive amount 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:32.280 of anxiety about an everyday life experience like taking an exam, 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:36.920 getting onto an airplane, but it's not necessarily that irrational. 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:38.400 What if if that makes sense? 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:44.280 And what's tough is people with anxiety can perform mental compulsions. 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:47.080 You can ruminate all day long and have anxiety and 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:47.800 not OCD. 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:49.720 That's fascinating. 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.120 So then how what's then the difference with that? So, like, 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:55.520 let's say I ruminate all day like, oh my gosh, 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:57.360 I'm so because I have like this weird like medical 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:58.800 anxiety thing. I'm like, oh my god, I'm gonna go 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:00.000 to the hospital and I'm gonna be sick in this 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.240 That and the other all day ruminating about it, where 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:04.480 then would it make it OCD. 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.680 So a lot of the times it comes down to 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:11.160 the doubt. So like, for instance, what if I have cancer. 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.280 If that's someone's obsession and they have health OCD, there 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.439 isn't anything in the here and now that would substantiate 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:18.120 that doubt. 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:19.520 If it is. 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:23.840 More of anxiety about a health situation that's actually happening, 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:26.600 that would be a bit different, because with OCD, we 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.240 want to resolve the doubt to the best of our ability, 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:31.840 to get the person to understand you're not a pedophile, 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:35.000 you don't have cancer, you're not a killer. Whereas if 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:38.880 it's something future based with anxiety, like what if our 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:42.400 plane crashes, that's not really something that we can resolve. 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.839 There is some uncertainty to tolerate there. So they are 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:46.760 pretty similar. 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:53.640 Really, it can be resolved, yes, absolutely, oh yeah, Whereas 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:56.960 sometimes with anxiety, when it's future oriented, there just isn't 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:57.600 an answer. 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:03.199 Okay, that makes sense, So then I'm just anxious human? 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.240 What has been? Because how old? Can I ask? How 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:08.600 old are you? 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:09.720 I'm twenty nine? 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:12.240 Okay, oh you love that, twenty nine? 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:14.160 Do I look old? Scared? 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:14.760 No? 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.120 No, no, because you're still young, you know what I mean, 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.080 Like it's I feel like I'm but thank you the 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:25.680 same trust. So you've been essentially quote living with this 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.560 for you know, as you know, ten ten years. What 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:33.080 has been the biggest besides therapy in the medicine, like, 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.160 the biggest tool for you that has helped you on this. 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:41.960 Path acceptance and acceptance of the thoughts that I'm having. 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:45.640 Not that the thoughts are true. I think that that word. 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:47.720 Scares people with OCD, but I really had to get 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.040 to a place of this is my brain. It will 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.400 think the wildest thoughts possible, and I just have to 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.080 let those exist because the more that I fight with them, 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:59.240 the more I experience those thoughts. So acceptance, I would say, 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:01.360 is the number one tool out of anything that I've 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.240 done that changed my recovery journey. 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:06.440 For me well, and with you being very open to 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:11.080 on your podcast, I make up that it's probably difficult 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:13.520 to having people that come to you and like say 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:17.240 things that might be again hurtful, but also you're speaking 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.360 your truth too. So in that we've obviously helped a 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:23.320 lot of people. What's the biggest thing that you've heard 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:25.240 from people that reach out to you. 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:28.880 I get messages almost every day that I've saved someone's life, 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:33.560 which really I I mean I sometimes they can't even 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.520 comprehend it, but it's usually that like, I've never heard 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.680 someone openly talk about this. I didn't know that what 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.120 I was experiencing was OCD because of all the misconceptions. 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:45.160 So probably those two things. 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:48.280 And I think having someone like I never know how 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.360 to talk about this, but when you when you think 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:53.200 about someone having scary sexual thoughts about kids, you probably 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:54.960 think about like the eighty five year old grandpa in 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:57.600 the basement. But when it's someone like me, who's like, 0:15:58.000 --> 0:15:59.600 you know, was a twenty five year old, twenty one 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.600 year old whatever experiencing it, I think it makes people 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:04.840 feel better like this can happen to anyone. You know, 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:08.080 You're not like a creepy, gross, weird person. It's just 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:09.480 a mental health condition. 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:15.240 For the anorexia. Do you mind if we touch on 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:15.800 that for a second. 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:15.960 Oh? 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:16.480 Absolutely? 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:16.960 Yeah. 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:20.240 Was that just a way of controlling? Was that a 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:23.360 part of the OCD you think was having that control? 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.640 Was it was it inexia or bolimia? 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:27.680 It was anarexia. 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:31.040 It's arexias? So did you not eat because of a 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.000 message you heard or was it control or what was it? 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:36.680 That's another thing I don't think I'll ever have the 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:38.040 complete answer to. 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:40.680 But it was me. 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:42.760 It started with me wanting to lose weight, and that's 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:44.920 something that I had been told my entire life, that 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.520 I should lose weight, and so I started a diet 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:49.920 my freshman year of college, and then a couple of 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:51.880 months later. The only way I can describe it is 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:54.840 like I just fell into an eating disorder and I 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:58.280 couldn't think about anything else other than food and body, 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.560 and it was it felt similar to OCD because there 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.960 were obsessions and there were convulsions, but it was to. 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.280 Me a lot easier than the OCD that came. 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.960 Next, Right, And like you said, like I feel like 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.040 or I'm sure there was nutrients possibly missing in the. 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:15.119 Brain, right, Oh for sure. 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:17.760 Yeah that might have triggered certain things. 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:22.520 Yeah, not eating can really impair a person's cognitive functioning, 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:25.920 and so I work with OCD and eating disorders. Those 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:27.879 are two of my specialties. And if someone comes in 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.880 and they're really malnourished, that is like the first thing 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.120 that we have to address, because it's hard to do 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:37.160 that cognitive treatment work if your brain is just not functioning. 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:42.240 It's interesting because my daughter's in she's in third grade, 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:46.080 and she has I don't know where she's heard it 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:48.440 because we don't say fat or skinny in this house. 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.440 We always just say like healthy, and you know, we 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.560 work out a lot. But I've never been like, oh 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.600 I'm fat or anything about skinny. And so she the 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.840 other day she was like, Mommy, am I fat? Or 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:04.760 am I skinny? And I'm just like, I was like, honey, 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.199 you are healthy, you are beautiful. But I'm like, am 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:08.760 I even saying the right words. I'm like, I don't 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:10.480 know because I'm like, obviously I wouldn't say like, yeah, 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:13.000 you're skinny. I mean, she's she's a slender girl. But 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.560 I'm like, I you know, it's like all of a sudden, 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:18.359 third grade is opening the door to all these bigger 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.280 conversations which something happened their day. I have to talk 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:23.600 to you about allan. But we know she heard something 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:25.480 at school, and so there's things I'm like, oh my gosh, 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:27.679 It's like I remember what it was like for me, 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.560 you know, being a kid and then going into middle 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:34.840 school and just having the comparing your bodies to other girls, 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:37.119 and even it's worse now because it's social media. So 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:40.119 it's just like and then I've been looking at her 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:42.359 lunch box too and being like, honey, and I noticed 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:44.560 that she didn't eat all of her food and she 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:46.000 had like a lot left, and so I kind of 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:47.720 looked at her and then I'm like should I even 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:49.399 be questioning her on this right now? But also like 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.920 she barely touched her lunch, so and it was after 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:53.800 the skinny conversation, so I was like, hey, baby, I 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.159 was like, I noticed you didn't eat your lunch, like 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:57.840 is every were you okay? She's like, oh, I just 0:18:57.880 --> 0:18:59.719 had a lot of the nuts, and I was like okay. 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:01.600 But then it like cocked in my head, is like, 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:03.560 oh my gosh, is she like thinking about not eating 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:05.359 because she wants to be skinny? And so then I 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:06.520 just like spiraled on that. 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:12.520 But any advice, So, I think when kids come to 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:14.120 us and they say, am I skinny? 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:14.800 Am I fat? 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:18.880 What's really important is to look at those words as 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:20.960 descriptors and to try to help them see that. So 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.560 there's nothing wrong with being fat. If a person is fat, 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:25.640