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Speaker 1: The following podcast contains very sensitive information regarding intrusive thoughts,

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Speaker 1: sexual assault, and suicide. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart radio podcast.

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Speaker 1: This week's Thursday episode, We've got a Legra cast In's on.

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Speaker 1: So she's a licensed marriage and family therapist. She has

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Speaker 1: a master's degree in clinical psychology from Pepperdine. She is

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Speaker 1: the founder of the Center of OCD, Anxiety and Eating Disorders.

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Speaker 1: She sees clients out of her New York office as

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Speaker 1: well as via teletherapy. So she specializes in the treatment

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Speaker 1: of obsessive compulsive disorder, anxiety disorders, body focused repetitive behaviors,

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Speaker 1: and eating disorders. And she has a podcast called Books, Looks,

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Speaker 1: and Lobotomies. And she's currently writing a memoir. So let's

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Speaker 1: get her on.

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Speaker 3: Hello, HOI you did, I'm good? How are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm good. I'm Jana. This is my husband Alan Leice

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Speaker 1: to me to meet you too. Hello. Hello, So we're

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Speaker 1: excited to have you on to chat all things. I

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Speaker 1: kind of want to just take it back though to

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Speaker 1: the very beginning. When did you well, when did you

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Speaker 1: first realize that you were We're dealing with OCD.

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Speaker 4: So I was nineteen years old, and well, actually nineteen

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Speaker 4: was when I had my onset of symptoms that just

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Speaker 4: debilitated me. So it was like, in point two seconds

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Speaker 4: everything changed. It felt like a flip switched to my

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Speaker 4: mind and I started having repetitive intrusive thoughts.

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Speaker 3: All day long.

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Speaker 4: But I didn't actually get diagnosed for another fifteen months,

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Speaker 4: so I think I was twenty years old when that happened.

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Speaker 1: What was the thing that was like happening that You're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is this is OCD?

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Speaker 4: So I was having and I don't know how much

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Speaker 4: you know about OCD, but I was having repetitive, unwanted

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Speaker 4: sexual thoughts about kids and animals and family members, and

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Speaker 4: it was the last thing that I wanted to think about,

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Speaker 4: but it just kept popping into my mind all day long.

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Speaker 4: So at first I didn't associate that with OCD because

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Speaker 4: I thought OCD was a disorder of cleanliness and organization.

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Speaker 4: And when I finally googled after fifteen months, like why

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Speaker 4: am I having these terrifying thoughts? OCD came up on

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Speaker 4: the Internet and that kind of changed my whole life.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea personally, I thought it was something

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Speaker 1: where I heard the clean thing, but also it's like

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Speaker 1: you touch the same spot every single day or is

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Speaker 1: that part of OCD too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I always gauge things around professional sports,

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Speaker 2: and you hear coaches say all the time when they

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Speaker 2: misplace their cones and they have to walk back and

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Speaker 2: replace them and then walk back and replate, like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: it's just my OCD, But it's not. It's you don't

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Speaker 2: have OCD, you have an attention for detail. There is

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Speaker 2: a big, big difference. And I looked into it a

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Speaker 2: little bit yesterday and it's amazing how it affects people's life.

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Speaker 2: But at what point did it become dangerous for you

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Speaker 2: in your life?

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Speaker 4: So that's you know, it's a tough question because I

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Speaker 4: was what we call high functioning. I was working in

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Speaker 4: Los Angeles at the time as a publicist, and I

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Speaker 4: think being very high functioning masked a lot of my suffering.

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Speaker 4: But it got to a point where I was in

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Speaker 4: trigger warning I'm going to talk about suicide, where I

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Speaker 4: wanted to kill myself because I didn't want to live

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Speaker 4: with these thoughts anymore. And I had been getting in

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Speaker 4: a lot of car accidents because I couldn't focus, Like

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Speaker 4: I just kept having the scariest thoughts replay over and

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Speaker 4: over and over, and when I wanted to end my

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Speaker 4: life because of this, that is when I really thought

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Speaker 4: like I need to get some kind of help or

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Speaker 4: I will be dead.

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Speaker 2: I must be really tough. I mean, you know what

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Speaker 2: it's like in period in life where you don't your

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Speaker 2: decision making and trusting your own decision making is as vital.

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Speaker 2: And for that to be, I mean, how much does

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Speaker 2: it affect your decision making and your normal function on

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Speaker 2: a daily basis, because your decision making is everything and life.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, now I am at a place of recut, so

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Speaker 4: I would say I don't meet diagnostic criteria for OCD.

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Speaker 4: But when I was really sick, it took up every

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Speaker 4: single second of my day, Like there was not a

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Speaker 4: second that I wasn't having a scary thought or doing

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Speaker 4: a mental compulsion like ruminating about why I was having

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Speaker 4: these thoughts, And it became really hard to trust myself.

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Speaker 3: Like I knew, I knew I.

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Speaker 4: Was born to be a mom. That's just something that

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Speaker 4: I've always known about myself. I've always loved kids. I

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Speaker 4: worked with kids before the onset of my OCD, and

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Speaker 4: so when this happened and out of the blue, I

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Speaker 4: started having scary sexual thoughts about kids, it made me

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Speaker 4: doubt myself and the kind of person that I was.

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Speaker 4: And I think it's it's a scary experience for a

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Speaker 4: lot of people with OCD because you know who you are,

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Speaker 4: but you have these really odd thoughts in your brain

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Speaker 4: that are trying to tell you that you're something that.

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Speaker 3: You are not.

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Speaker 4: So it really attacked my whole identity and at a

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Speaker 4: time in my life where I think, nineteen twenty years old,

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Speaker 4: you're already kind of trying to find yourself, and that

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Speaker 4: really impaired a lot of different areas of my life.

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Speaker 1: I have two kind of questions around it. At the first,

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Speaker 1: So were you nervous to speak about the things that

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Speaker 1: you were dealing with because I could sense some or

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Speaker 1: I could imagine people hear that and they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: stay away from my kids, or something like a thousand Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I was terrified.

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Speaker 4: I didn't even want to google it because I didn't

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Speaker 4: want like, I didn't want to google why am I

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Speaker 4: having these scary thoughts about kids? Because I didn't want

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Speaker 4: the Internet to say you're a pedophile because I knew

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Speaker 4: that I wasn't.

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Speaker 3: I was not getting enjoyment out of these thoughts.

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Speaker 4: OCD is very egodystonic, Like I knew that this wasn't me,

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Speaker 4: and then I was really afraid to tell a doctor

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Speaker 4: because I didn't want them to tell me you must

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Speaker 4: be a pedophile, because I knew so deeply that I wasn't.

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Speaker 4: And that's a fear a lot of people with OCD have,

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Speaker 4: whether it's postpartum obsessions about one's baby harm obsessions, like

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Speaker 4: they worry that they're going to go see a therapist

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Speaker 4: who doesn't understand OCD and then says you're a killer,

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Speaker 4: or you're going to drown your baby, or you're a pedophile,

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Speaker 4: and that's actually the last thing that the person is.

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Speaker 1: So now that you've gotten, you know through through the

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Speaker 1: work of all this, like what was the do you

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Speaker 1: know why it comes up? And then how was the

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Speaker 1: like the healing to get through it?

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Speaker 4: I really wish I had that answer, And I'm writing

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Speaker 4: a memoir right now, and like that is the question

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Speaker 4: that I probably won't ever have an answer to. We

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Speaker 4: don't know what causes OCD right now. It's often people

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Speaker 4: think it's a mix of genetics, biology, environment, So if

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Speaker 4: you have trauma growing up, that might contribute to it.

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Speaker 4: And I was anorexic at the time, so I think

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Speaker 4: that me being anarexic struggling with an eating disorder and

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Speaker 4: not eating enough probably contributed to my brain not functioning

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Speaker 4: as well as it should have. But I don't think

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Speaker 4: I'll ever know what caused this, and that is kind

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Speaker 4: of scary if I think about it, because I guess

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Speaker 4: I never know if I'm going to have that like

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Speaker 4: relapse of symptoms again in that way.

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Speaker 1: So how did you get through it?

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Speaker 5: Then?

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Speaker 1: What were the If someone else is listening to this,

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh my gosh, same and I've been to

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Speaker 1: or ified to admit it. So thank you, you know,

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Speaker 1: for sharing for those that can, because you're going to

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Speaker 1: be helping people obviously through sharing everything you share. So

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Speaker 1: what was the first thing you did and how what

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Speaker 1: were the steps following?

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Speaker 4: So I saw a therapist who understood OCD, which was

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Speaker 4: really helpful. And there's a specific evidence based treatment for OCD.

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Speaker 4: It's not like general talk therapy that you might do.

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Speaker 4: It's cognitive behavioral therapy with an emphasis on exposure and

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Speaker 4: response prevention. So I started seeing a therapist who understood OCD,

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Speaker 4: and then I also started taking medication, which I'm not

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Speaker 4: saying that other people have to, but that was also

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Speaker 4: a really big tool in my healing journey, like quieted

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Speaker 4: the thoughts down, I didn't feel as anxious, and it

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Speaker 4: enabled me to do the therapy work.

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Speaker 1: I'm just curious what medicine.

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Speaker 3: I'm on, Prozac, prozach okay, yes, yes.

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Speaker 1: Just curious if I had anything, because I used to

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Speaker 1: take lexapro. So I was just wondering, like which ones

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Speaker 1: stimulate certain different SSRIs or whatever.

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Speaker 3: It depends on the person.

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Speaker 4: Which is another shitty Like I had to go through

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Speaker 4: four medications and three different doctors to find a doctor

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Speaker 4: and a med that actually worked for me, And that

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Speaker 4: can be really scary for people who want that fix quickly,

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Speaker 4: to feel like a guinea pig.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it just it just amazes me because there's a

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Speaker 2: perception of what an outside perception of what OCD is like,

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Speaker 2: to give an example, like, and it's a poor perspective really,

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Speaker 2: Like to give an example, I used to play soccer

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Speaker 2: and there was a period where I was walking the

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Speaker 2: team out and I was a captain, right and I was,

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Speaker 2: I had so many superstitions, so been interesting to see

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Speaker 2: what the links are between superstitions and OCD. Because there's

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Speaker 2: one time we were just walking the team out. I

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Speaker 2: was going in the field and like, my shoes are

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Speaker 2: facing the wrong way in the locker room, and I

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Speaker 2: left my teammates and walked back like eighty yards so

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Speaker 2: that I could put my shoes back the right way,

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Speaker 2: just so that I thought, because I thought that would

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Speaker 2: ruin my performance. So it'd be amazing. I'd be amazed

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Speaker 2: to see the links between what people think are superstitions

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Speaker 2: and think are OCD when it's not. It's just a

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Speaker 2: it's just a stupid superstition based on which is essentially

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Speaker 2: what it is, based on what you think how it's

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Speaker 2: going to affect your day and affect your performance. And

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Speaker 2: when I read I didn't take a deep dive, but

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Speaker 2: I read about OCD, and I'm like, wow, it's so

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Speaker 2: far from what you think it is it really is

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Speaker 2: and what and what the public perceivers is o c D.

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Speaker 2: And it actually really amazed me, Like even like I

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Speaker 2: seen I saw one of your posts yesterday. It was

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Speaker 2: about you having intrusive thoughts on a plane yes, related

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Speaker 2: to me because Janna is not a good flyer.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, and I'm constantly thinking, is it Does that

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Speaker 1: mean I'm OCD? Then? Because but I have like thoughts

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Speaker 1: all the time. I'm like about the plane going down,

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Speaker 1: and then what's going to happen? And then like am

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Speaker 1: I gonna have to do this? And I have like

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Speaker 1: thirty different steps of what I'm doing on the plane?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so my question what are those intrusives? So if

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Speaker 2: you're in the exit role of a flight, yeah, what

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Speaker 2: goes through your head and makes it so dangerous for you?

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Speaker 4: So like now I can laugh about it because I'm

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Speaker 4: in a place of recovery. And by the way, like

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Speaker 4: anybody can have an intrusive thought, For the person with OCD,

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Speaker 4: it's repetitive, it tends to stick, and the person is

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Speaker 4: performing mental, mental, and or physical compulsions that take up

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Speaker 4: an hour of their day. So if you have a

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Speaker 4: random intrusive thought, that doesn't automatically mean that you have OCD.

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Speaker 4: For me, I was able to just say, like, that's

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Speaker 4: a ridiculous thought and get on with it. But ten

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Speaker 4: years ago that would have consumed my entire flight, Like

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Speaker 4: I probably would have wanted to get up and move

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Speaker 4: to a different row, because I would have been so

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Speaker 4: afraid that I could just snap and open up the

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Speaker 4: door midflight.

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Speaker 1: And then what so, okay, so you say that, and

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Speaker 1: then what are the other actions that you say go

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Speaker 1: along with it for the next hour.

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Speaker 4: So mental compulsions are big, and a lot of people

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Speaker 4: don't understand that. They think if someone has OCD, I'll

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Speaker 4: see them redoing something or sanitizing. For me, all of

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Speaker 4: my compulsions were mental. So they might sit there ruminating

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Speaker 4: about whether or not they actually want to open the door.

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Speaker 4: They might mentally review the past to see if there

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Speaker 4: are any instances that confirm that they could be a killer,

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Speaker 4: or they could reassure themselves internally. They could neutralize their

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Speaker 4: thoughts constantly repeating I'm not going to do that, I'm

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Speaker 4: not going to do that.

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Speaker 3: So a lot of mental compulsions for people.

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering now is like my anxiety actually OCD.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a complete deference on how anxiety affects. You'll see,

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Speaker 2: like I was reading, but.

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Speaker 1: I obsess of things like mentally in my brain.

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Speaker 2: Anxiety is your perception of yourself.

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Speaker 1: That is fear too of like unknown.

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Speaker 4: Tell us the difference for sure between anxiety and OCD.

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Speaker 4: With OCD, there tends to be what we call obsessional

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Speaker 4: doubt or pathological doubt. So the person is doubting what

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Speaker 4: they know. Like I know that I'm not a pedophile,

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Speaker 4: but I keep having these thoughts about that. I know

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Speaker 4: that I'm not a killer, but these thoughts keep popping

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Speaker 4: into my mind. So there's a lot of doubt that

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Speaker 4: is not super rational. And there's also a lot of anxiety.

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Speaker 4: With generalized anxiety, someone might be experiencing an excessive amount

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Speaker 4: of anxiety about an everyday life experience like taking an exam,

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Speaker 4: getting onto an airplane, but it's not necessarily that irrational.

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Speaker 3: What if if that makes sense?

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Speaker 4: And what's tough is people with anxiety can perform mental compulsions.

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Speaker 4: You can ruminate all day long and have anxiety and

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Speaker 4: not OCD.

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Speaker 2: That's fascinating.

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Speaker 1: So then how what's then the difference with that? So, like,

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Speaker 1: let's say I ruminate all day like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: I'm so because I have like this weird like medical

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Speaker 1: anxiety thing. I'm like, oh my god, I'm gonna go

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Speaker 1: to the hospital and I'm gonna be sick in this

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Speaker 1: That and the other all day ruminating about it, where

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Speaker 1: then would it make it OCD.

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Speaker 4: So a lot of the times it comes down to

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Speaker 4: the doubt. So like, for instance, what if I have cancer.

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Speaker 4: If that's someone's obsession and they have health OCD, there

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Speaker 4: isn't anything in the here and now that would substantiate

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Speaker 4: that doubt.

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Speaker 3: If it is.

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Speaker 4: More of anxiety about a health situation that's actually happening,

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Speaker 4: that would be a bit different, because with OCD, we

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Speaker 4: want to resolve the doubt to the best of our ability,

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Speaker 4: to get the person to understand you're not a pedophile,

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Speaker 4: you don't have cancer, you're not a killer. Whereas if

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Speaker 4: it's something future based with anxiety, like what if our

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Speaker 4: plane crashes, that's not really something that we can resolve.

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Speaker 4: There is some uncertainty to tolerate there. So they are

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Speaker 4: pretty similar.

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Speaker 5: Really, it can be resolved, yes, absolutely, oh yeah, Whereas

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Speaker 5: sometimes with anxiety, when it's future oriented, there just isn't

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Speaker 5: an answer.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense, So then I'm just anxious human?

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Speaker 1: What has been? Because how old? Can I ask? How

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Speaker 1: old are you?

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Speaker 3: I'm twenty nine?

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Speaker 1: Okay, oh you love that, twenty nine?

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Speaker 3: Do I look old? Scared?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 1: No, no, because you're still young, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: Like it's I feel like I'm but thank you the

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Speaker 1: same trust. So you've been essentially quote living with this

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Speaker 1: for you know, as you know, ten ten years. What

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Speaker 1: has been the biggest besides therapy in the medicine, like,

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Speaker 1: the biggest tool for you that has helped you on this.

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Speaker 4: Path acceptance and acceptance of the thoughts that I'm having.

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Speaker 3: Not that the thoughts are true. I think that that word.

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Speaker 4: Scares people with OCD, but I really had to get

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Speaker 4: to a place of this is my brain. It will

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Speaker 4: think the wildest thoughts possible, and I just have to

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Speaker 4: let those exist because the more that I fight with them,

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Speaker 4: the more I experience those thoughts. So acceptance, I would say,

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Speaker 4: is the number one tool out of anything that I've

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Speaker 4: done that changed my recovery journey.

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Speaker 1: For me well, and with you being very open to

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Speaker 1: on your podcast, I make up that it's probably difficult

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Speaker 1: to having people that come to you and like say

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Speaker 1: things that might be again hurtful, but also you're speaking

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Speaker 1: your truth too. So in that we've obviously helped a

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Speaker 1: lot of people. What's the biggest thing that you've heard

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Speaker 1: from people that reach out to you.

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Speaker 4: I get messages almost every day that I've saved someone's life,

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Speaker 4: which really I I mean I sometimes they can't even

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Speaker 4: comprehend it, but it's usually that like, I've never heard

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Speaker 4: someone openly talk about this. I didn't know that what

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Speaker 4: I was experiencing was OCD because of all the misconceptions.

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Speaker 3: So probably those two things.

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Speaker 4: And I think having someone like I never know how

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Speaker 4: to talk about this, but when you when you think

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Speaker 4: about someone having scary sexual thoughts about kids, you probably

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Speaker 4: think about like the eighty five year old grandpa in

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Speaker 4: the basement. But when it's someone like me, who's like,

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Speaker 4: you know, was a twenty five year old, twenty one

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Speaker 4: year old whatever experiencing it, I think it makes people

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Speaker 4: feel better like this can happen to anyone. You know,

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Speaker 4: You're not like a creepy, gross, weird person. It's just

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Speaker 4: a mental health condition.

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Speaker 1: For the anorexia. Do you mind if we touch on

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Speaker 1: that for a second.

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely?

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Was that just a way of controlling? Was that a

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Speaker 1: part of the OCD you think was having that control?

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Speaker 1: Was it was it inexia or bolimia?

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Speaker 3: It was anarexia.

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Speaker 1: It's arexias? So did you not eat because of a

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Speaker 1: message you heard or was it control or what was it?

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Speaker 4: That's another thing I don't think I'll ever have the

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Speaker 4: complete answer to.

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Speaker 3: But it was me.

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Speaker 4: It started with me wanting to lose weight, and that's

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Speaker 4: something that I had been told my entire life, that

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Speaker 4: I should lose weight, and so I started a diet

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Speaker 4: my freshman year of college, and then a couple of

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Speaker 4: months later. The only way I can describe it is

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Speaker 4: like I just fell into an eating disorder and I

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Speaker 4: couldn't think about anything else other than food and body,

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Speaker 4: and it was it felt similar to OCD because there

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Speaker 4: were obsessions and there were convulsions, but it was to.

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Speaker 3: Me a lot easier than the OCD that came.

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Speaker 1: Next, Right, And like you said, like I feel like

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Speaker 1: or I'm sure there was nutrients possibly missing in the.

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Speaker 3: Brain, right, Oh for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that might have triggered certain things.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, not eating can really impair a person's cognitive functioning,

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Speaker 4: and so I work with OCD and eating disorders. Those

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Speaker 4: are two of my specialties. And if someone comes in

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Speaker 4: and they're really malnourished, that is like the first thing

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Speaker 4: that we have to address, because it's hard to do

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Speaker 4: that cognitive treatment work if your brain is just not functioning.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because my daughter's in she's in third grade,

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Speaker 1: and she has I don't know where she's heard it

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Speaker 1: because we don't say fat or skinny in this house.

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Speaker 1: We always just say like healthy, and you know, we

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Speaker 1: work out a lot. But I've never been like, oh

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Speaker 1: I'm fat or anything about skinny. And so she the

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Speaker 1: other day she was like, Mommy, am I fat? Or

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Speaker 1: am I skinny? And I'm just like, I was like, honey,

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Speaker 1: you are healthy, you are beautiful. But I'm like, am

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Speaker 1: I even saying the right words. I'm like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know because I'm like, obviously I wouldn't say like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're skinny. I mean, she's she's a slender girl. But

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I you know, it's like all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: third grade is opening the door to all these bigger

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Speaker 1: conversations which something happened their day. I have to talk

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Speaker 1: to you about allan. But we know she heard something

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Speaker 1: at school, and so there's things I'm like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: It's like I remember what it was like for me,

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Speaker 1: you know, being a kid and then going into middle

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Speaker 1: school and just having the comparing your bodies to other girls,

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Speaker 1: and even it's worse now because it's social media. So

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Speaker 1: it's just like and then I've been looking at her

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Speaker 1: lunch box too and being like, honey, and I noticed

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Speaker 1: that she didn't eat all of her food and she

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Speaker 1: had like a lot left, and so I kind of

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Speaker 1: looked at her and then I'm like should I even

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Speaker 1: be questioning her on this right now? But also like

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Speaker 1: she barely touched her lunch, so and it was after

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Speaker 1: the skinny conversation, so I was like, hey, baby, I

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Speaker 1: was like, I noticed you didn't eat your lunch, like

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Speaker 1: is every were you okay? She's like, oh, I just

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Speaker 1: had a lot of the nuts, and I was like okay.

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Speaker 1: But then it like cocked in my head, is like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, is she like thinking about not eating

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Speaker 1: because she wants to be skinny? And so then I

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Speaker 1: just like spiraled on that.

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Speaker 4: But any advice, So, I think when kids come to

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Speaker 4: us and they say, am I skinny?

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Speaker 3: Am I fat?

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Speaker 4: What's really important is to look at those words as

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Speaker 4: descriptors and to try to help them see that. So

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Speaker 4: there's nothing wrong with being fat. If a person is fat,

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Speaker 4: there's nothing bad about that. Some people have more fat

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Speaker 4: on their bodies. Some people have less fat on their bodies,

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Speaker 4: So talking about those words in that way instead of

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Speaker 4: saying like you are skinny, which obviously you didn't do.

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Speaker 4: And even the word healthy can be super loaded. I

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Speaker 4: think a lot of the times people think that being

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Speaker 4: thin means being healthy, but you can also be fat

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Speaker 4: and be healthy.

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Speaker 3: You can be thin and you can be unhealthy.

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Speaker 4: So I think helping your kids see that no matter what, like,

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Speaker 4: these are descriptors and they're not good or bad, they

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Speaker 4: just are. Some people have long hair, some people have

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Speaker 4: short hair, some people have round bellies, some people have

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Speaker 4: flat bellies, and all of that.

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Speaker 1: Is okay, yeah, that way a better conversation.

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Speaker 4: But it sounds like she's really internalized something from school.

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Speaker 4: So I think having that conversation might be helpful.

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Speaker 1: Okay, thank you, I appreciate that.

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Speaker 2: I talked to me about groin. I started to watch

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Speaker 2: a yesterday.

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Speaker 3: I'm obsessed.

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Speaker 1: Okay, an Scottish accent too.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, So, oh my god, I just went to Scotland

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Speaker 4: last week for the first time and it was amazing.

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Speaker 1: So wait, catch all of us up that had no idea,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the listeners.

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Speaker 2: Please all did you enjoy scott Scotland.

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Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I want to move there, but I

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Speaker 4: have an American stafford charitary so pitbull, and I don't

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Speaker 4: think that she'll be allowed.

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Speaker 2: That would be your own reason for not moving.

432
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Speaker 3: Yeah, because they'll take her away.

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Speaker 2: Mmm? Is it a pit bull?

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Speaker 3: I mean technically, but aren't all bull terriers?

435
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Speaker 2: You know?

436
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Speaker 1: Can you go back to the gruns?

437
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 2: It's called groin ahead.

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Speaker 3: This is the funniest I have ever been asked this.

439
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,480
Speaker 2: Listen. I might be smiling and laughing, but I get

440
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 2: that it might be. It's obviously a.

441
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 3: Sure.

442
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,639
Speaker 2: So I started to watch. I started to watch a

443
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 2: video with you and one of it, I think it

444
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,639
Speaker 2: was maybe someone you'd on your podcast or a show,

445
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 2: and you and you guys started to talk about groino

446
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 2: and then my flight took off and I couldn't I

447
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 2: couldn't hear the rest of it, so I stayed intrigued.

448
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,439
Speaker 2: So I thought, I need to ask you what and

449
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,199
Speaker 2: elaborate on what it actually is.

450
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 3: Okay, this is a life saving question, It really is.

451
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 4: So basically, this can happen for anyone, not even just

452
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 4: people with ocd Our bodies don't always respond to what

453
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,199
Speaker 4: we're actually aroused by So what tends to happen for

454
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 4: people with sexual intrusive thoughts is they feel something in

455
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 4: their gronal area because they're having a sexual thought that

456
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 4: is not automatically indicative of desire. So there's something called

457
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 4: arousal non concordance where you're having a physical response but

458
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 4: it's not at all concordant with what you like up here,

459
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 4: and so people with OCD talk about it as like

460
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,439
Speaker 4: a gronal response. I'm having a coronal response to this

461
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 4: thought that is so disgusting to me. And Emily Nagowski,

462
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if you've heard of her, she wrote,

463
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 4: Come as you Are. She's a fabulous sex educator. She

464
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 4: gave an example her husband in high school was thinking

465
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 4: about a donut and then got an.

466
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 1: Erection thinking about a donut.

467
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 4: Yes, he didn't want to put the donut, but when

468
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 4: you're thinking about like a whole and you're fifteen years old,

469
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,439
Speaker 4: like your brain registers that as sexual somehow, and so

470
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 4: he had an erection thinking about that, and that's kind

471
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 4: of what that is.

472
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 3: Like you could have a sexual thought about your mother

473
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 3: and it disgust you.

474
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 4: But because it's sexual in nature, your body responds, or

475
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 4: I also want to give a trigger warning.

476
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 3: I'm going to talk about sexual assault.

477
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,919
Speaker 4: People who are raped sometimes orgasm, not because they're enjoying

478
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,360
Speaker 4: it whatsoever, but because their body is responding to something sexual.

479
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,920
Speaker 4: So a grinal response is you are having some kind

480
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 4: of response and you think it's evidence that your obsession

481
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 4: is true and it is not.

482
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 2: So is that what happened to gym from American pie?

483
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 3: I haven't seen that, you know, an American pile. I

484
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 3: was just twenty nine.

485
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 1: Penis and a pie. An apple pie just goes what

486
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 1: a pull?

487
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 5: Wow?

488
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 1: More questions?

489
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, these are great questions from you.

490
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just really need I needed to clear it

491
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 2: up what it actually was. It was intriguing, but it's

492
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 2: one of those questions where I didn't know whether it

493
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 2: was going to be because it kind of seems funny,

494
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: but it's not as serious clearly, So then don't how

495
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 2: you approach it? So I'd just be okay, growing tell

496
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 2: me more.

497
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 4: I'm glad you asked, because that is something that keeps

498
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 4: people stuck in like I might be this bad person

499
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 4: when it's like no, you're just having a bodily response

500
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 4: to something, just like we can feel anxious about something

501
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 4: that isn't actually real. Same with our bodies, we can

502
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 4: feel like a bodily sexual response to something that we

503
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:24,360
Speaker 4: do not desire.

504
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 2: Crazy.

505
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 1: You're great. Yeah, I appreciate you coming on and so

506
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 1: you got your when when's your memoir coming out.

507
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 4: Spring of twenty twenty six, So I'm still writing, I'm

508
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 4: on deadline.

509
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 1: That's amazing.

510
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 3: Thank well you.

511
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: I appreciate you being authentic. I appreciate you sharing your story.

512
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: You were helping people and that is the win at

513
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 1: the end of the day, and everyone else, you know,

514
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 1: can just look the other way if they don't want

515
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: to listen, is what I always say.

516
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 2: So yeah, I love that. I think you're educating people

517
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 2: on something that they think they know about it, but

518
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 2: the one of a clue what it?

519
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: I literally just not OCD was just cleaning obsessively. Yes,

520
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: so this is very enlightening. And everyone listened to books,

521
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: Looks and the Bottom. Yes, podcast new episodes every Wednesday.

522
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,239
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, girl. I really appreciate you.

523
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 3: So nice to meet you.

524
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: Bye.