WEBVTT - Jake Fischer joins Heat Check 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:16.320 No, no, come home, Come home. 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:19.320 On this episode of the Heat Check, we have a 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:22.320 very special guest, my guy, Jake Fisher. 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.920 He's an author. Folks don't know he's written books. 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:29.320 Uh. He's the author of Bill to Lose. How the 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:32.840 NBA's tanking era changed the league forever. 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:36.599 I think that tanking. We'll talk about this another time. 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.519 But like owners that just try to lose, I just 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:42.240 can't stand it. I really can't. 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:47.440 Uh. He also is a newsbreaker newsmaker works for currently 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:51.640 works for Bleacher Report, has worked for SI, has worked 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:55.320 for SB Nation. Actually got his start at the Boston Globe, 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:57.480 which I did not know until today. 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:01.240 Very very big ja, you know, very big jay. 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:05.360 Journalist Jake Fisher making some moves, making some moves, bust 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:08.280 out on the scene, Jake Fisher out of fucking nowhere 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:09.080 to just. 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:12.400 All of a sudden, breaking huge news. Welcome to the show, 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:13.120 Jake Fisher. 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:17.280 That is a very kind intro. You know, I'd like 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:19.280 to think I was like around for a long time. 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:22.400 You know, I was. I was picking away with my 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.000 axe at Slam and the SI. But then, you know, 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.360 all of a sudden, we got thrust into this transaction world. 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:31.160 So we're trying to make it work. 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:34.920 You know, how did you get into it? 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:38.080 Because I feel like you don't just bring I mean, 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.000 it's not easy to just all of a sudden be 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:45.680 developing the relationships where you break news? Did that come from? 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:48.800 So this built to lose? How the NBA's tanking era 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:52.120 changed the league forever? Did the relationships through that sourcing 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.160 of that book end up lead you on this path? 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.680 Was it like break down? How you got here as 0:01:58.800 --> 0:01:59.840 like cogently as. 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.760 Pop Well, First of all, thank you for the very 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:07.559 seamless and organic plugs of the book title. Multiple times 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:12.320 my publish really regard for that. But to answer your question, 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.960 and it's funny, it's honestly the question I typically get 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.400 the most when I when I did talk on so 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.040 such as these, but I mean at SI for years, 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.880 I was writing all these dumb, silly features that people 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:29.520 wanted to talk about. Like I got coffee with Mike 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:34.040 D'Antoni one day at like seven am downtown in five 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.160 I had the Starbucks because apparently he is addicted to 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:41.360 Starbucks cappuccinos. It's the only thing that is like close 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:44.960 to resembling his time in Milan or all over Italy. 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:47.760 When he was playing and coaching the professionally and like 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:50.880 stuff like I mean, there's a lot down the list 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:53.840 of those types of like personality type stories, and I 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.600 got to know people in the league by being someone 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.919 who wasn't trying to call them about very pressing details 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.080 such as the ones I'm doing now but flash forward. 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.480 I got laid off by Sports Illustrated in October twenty 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.840 nineteen when the company got taken over by new management, 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:15.480 leadership whatever. Unfortunately, my editor at Bleach Report, Chris Trenchard, 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:17.760 I had a relationship with him just being in the 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.520 industry for a couple of years, and he was letting 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.000 me freelance there. I did some stuff like I remember 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:25.880 I did a story about Trey Young before his All 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:28.160 Star Game, how he was like hanging out with Chris 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:30.239 paul as like a high school kid and going to 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:33.120 Kevin Durant's apartment to watch T and T Thursday night 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:37.600 games when he was sixteen seventeen years old. I did 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:41.960 some feature after the pandemic began about how the teams 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:44.280 gearing up to go to the bubble were in seat 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.440 set of high five and they were like tapping each 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:49.520 other with his feet and sneakers to try to like 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.200 avoid the germi vacation of you know, COVID and everything. 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.960 And then twenty twenty one, beginning of that year, my 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.720 editor Chris said, you know, we kind of need the 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.600 away from the freelance stuff and the future writing that 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:05.560 you prefer to do. We want to go and do 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:09.080 this more transactional game. So to bring a long ramble 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:11.080 to a close, I wanted to do it in a 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:15.280 way that was storytelling though, so I do try to 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.640 write a story every week and something that I feel 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:20.640 like we go back and forth a lot on the 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:23.800 edits about trying to what's relevant, like what's going to 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:28.800 be aggregated, and like I am trying to interweave those 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:34.240 juicy tidbits within ultimately context, and the context just becomes 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.320 what I think is more of a narrative in the 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:40.880 day to day game of this transaction beast. 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.839 So, how do you get to the point where people 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.680 are all wanting to answer your calls. 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:52.160 Like as a new kid on the block, because I 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:54.760 feel like all the things that you were doing in 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:58.320 the relationships that you built from feature writing, now it's. 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:02.440 Like, hey, by the way, like I'm I'm just another 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:07.719 one of those those news news leeches. I need info, 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:09.640 and I think now. 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:12.440 I mean the leech thing is funny, like I do 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:14.440 address the elephant of the room and kind of make 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.080 fun of it myself when I'm hanging out with people, 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:19.000 you know off the record. I mean a lot of 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.840 people do. Still. I got was at dinner with a 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.000 bunch of people a week and a half ago, two 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:27.200 weeks ago wherever the dates were dan in New Orleans, 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:29.080 and some guy kept kind of saying, like, you know, 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:30.960 with Jake's here, Like, am I going to be some 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:33.760 unnamed source. I think you kind of have to steer 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.240 into that and like recognize the elephant in the room. 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:39.520 But also, I mean I've known a lot of his 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:43.400 people now for over almost a deck guy. I kind 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.359 of really started covering the league at the twenty thirteen draft, 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:48.360 so it's been it's been a long time for a 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:52.000 lot of these guys. People of late, like whenever I 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:55.880 meet someone new, Fortunately, I've found the last six to 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:59.520 eight nine months or so, people kind of know me 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:03.719 more so when it's a when it's an introduction, they're like, oh, yeah, okay, yeah, 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.760 I know what you do, and that that obviously is 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:12.200 a pretty nice lubricant to create a dialogue and a communication, 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.640 but to get people to give me the info as 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.760 to answer your question, Like what I do is just 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:21.920 like when I got the kind of quote unquote offer 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:26.239 or the positional shift push from my editor, I called 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:28.640 like ten to fifteen guys in the league that I 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:31.040 knew had access to info that I had been talking 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:33.520 with for years, and said, Hey, would you mind if 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.400 I just did this once a week and started badgering you, Like, 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:38.360 I know it's going to be annoying, but I promise 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:40.040 it'll be like we'll have a good time with it, 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:42.720 you know, like we're friends, or at least we've had 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:45.400 we have some type of relationship, and that's kind of 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:49.560 where it got started. And every week I make those 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.120 calls or you know, and that that list has grown 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.159 and shrunk, and some people fall in and out because 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:56.039 of what you write or because of what their boss 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:59.120 now doesn't want them to be saying to you. But 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:02.240 I think, you know, with like the TIBs story this week, 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.920 I just had heard that very loosely and then very 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:08.440 more strongly, and then like I finally gathered all my 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:11.040 intel and brought it to the highest ranking people that 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.840 I could that would truly know, and they kind of 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:17.840 confirmed and deny the little details, and then we write 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.280 something up and move on to the next the next week. 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:23.960 Awesome. That's that's really interesting. 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:27.480 I guess if you're bringing it out into the forefront 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.600 and saying like, hey, I'm going to be scheduling out 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:33.960 my times to pester you and to badger you, that's 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:36.720 and then they agree they kind of know what they're 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:39.720 signing up for. Especially since you're you've got a pre 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:41.080 existing relationship. 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:45.080 What are the dues and don'ts of news breaking, Like 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:46.080 what are things that. 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:50.400 Get you cut off from this business? And what are 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.000 ways that you think like help you be successful. 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:57.000 That's a great question, you know, And I will say 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:00.560 also to kind of bridge us to the last question too. Now, 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.560 also like people know that I and and for and 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:06.480 not trust me. Obviously I think everything I think I'm 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:08.720 talking in terms of my approach, I can't speak to that. 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.800 That's what everyone else is a pro that's I sort 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:15.360 of implied for sure, But in terms of like the 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:17.680 role that I can play in terms of like not 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:21.080 the article, but the actual conversations, like there are many 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:23.880 there's a lot of people in the media side of things. 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:28.400 But when you have access to information that is considered 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.080 a proprietary in terms of the NBA world, you know, 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:33.400 teams do want to know what I know. Like, there's 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:37.880 a lot of people who like I can help connect 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:40.360 the dot to create you know, I'm not saying like 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:45.440 I'm taking credit for a transaction happening, but that's I mean, 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:47.960 it's not just me again, this is what the role 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:51.679 that we can provide as a collective of you know, 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:56.120 the reporter in the NBA ecosystem. Like that's why at 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.240 the end of the day, people have a general incentive 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.960 to talk. And I think recognizing that is the biggest 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:05.199 to bring this to your second question, I think that's 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.679 the biggest thing to have in your in your quiver 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.240 when you're going into these conversations, Like if you if 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:14.760 you go into it as oh, yeah, I am just 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:16.959 a pest and I'm just coming to be annoying to you, 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.360 like that works, I think to show a humility and 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:24.720 and and the human aspect of the conversation you're having. 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:28.480 But if I call someone who like an agent of 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.080 a player who is requesting a trader or a general manager, 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:34.600 I'm talking about that team's trade conversations like you need 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:38.440 to I think also kind of hold yourself with an 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:41.160 authority and that like you have a purpose for that call, 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:44.160 because people will try to bully you and walk over 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.559 you and lie to you and try to not help you. 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.079 But if you if you present things I think in 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:51.480 a respectful way, in a professional way, in a way 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:54.480 that did not sound too corny like means business, I 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:58.920 think people will respect that ultimately, and they'll they'll recognize 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:03.360 them understanding for story coming out. You know their perspective 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:05.040 and what they can help to try to shift it 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.240 in a way that might even benefit them. It's also 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.640 your job to be thinking all the time what these 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:14.240 people's motivations are and where they're hoping to get the 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:16.120 story to be, and why they might be saying that 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:19.800 or where they might know that information from. There's a 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:21.640 lot of like second guessing I think you have to 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:23.800 do in your head all the time to try to 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:27.520 separate the fact from the fiction. Because the NBA is 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:31.000 I'm sure the NFL and baseball are very similar, but 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:34.679 the NBA ecosystem is very much rooted in rumor and 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:36.400 a lot of it isn't true. But a lot of 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:38.760 it is coming from something that is true. So if 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.480 you can peel back through all the bullshit and figure 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.120 out the truth, you can kind of write something and 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:46.480 write some tea leaves to things that are going to 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.720 happen when you know then ultimately they do get reported someday. 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.600 Are there things you should not do, like, say you're 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:55.800 at that dinner, Like, do those. 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:58.920 People do become unknown named sources if they're sort of 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:02.200 casually mentioning or is that the first breadcrumb. 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:04.360 That you end up using to then go in a 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.319 more formal basis to say, okay, like I can go 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:10.480 and call up a contact and confirm the case. 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:15.280 Well, the general don't do is I mean, like if 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:17.120 you are going to be a narc, like if everything 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:19.240 people say to you is going to be written publicly, 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:21.240 or you're going to be then spewing it and telling 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:23.199 everyone that you talk to like no one's gonna want 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:26.200 to talk to anymore. I mean there's a fine line between, Like, obviously, 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.679 when I'm talking to people, like everything I'm hearing is 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:34.160 ultimately coloring my overall understanding to make my stories more 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:37.240 accurate and more authentic and more knowledgeable. But at the 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:42.600 same time, like you can write something that's very honestly 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.199 damning about someone or a team, but also kind of 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.560 leaving out a lot of details that might not necessarily 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:52.000 be necessary or might not be confirmed, but you can 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:55.960 kind of characterize them in ways that also can help 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:59.079 a relationship continue, but also are still being fair and 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:01.640 critical at the same time. I think there is a 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:06.559 balance in that, And I think to your second part 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:08.360 of that question, like how do you switch? Make that 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.920 switch flip? See someone you can call? I mean to me, 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:16.199 like anybody is someone I can call. Like, especially coming 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:18.960 from the perspective of to do my job as well 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:20.959 as I can. I'm trying to get as much of 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:22.800 the truth as I can, and the best way to 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:26.079 do that is to talk to literally everybody. So if 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:28.920 that's the case, then I can call everybody in terms 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:31.600 of someone who I know wants to talk and whisper 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:33.920 and everyone wants to talk about other people, right those 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:37.360 people that I can have those palows with on a 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:40.440 semi weekly basis, you can tell pretty quickly right away. 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.640 Sometimes people are very straight up about it, kind of 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.640 like out of a TV show, And you know I 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:48.680 can help you, you can help me, Like here's my card. 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.000 Let's stay in touch. Like sometimes that is very It 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:54.520 is very like there's a it's kind of like an 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.400 on the date where you're having a good conversation all 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.200 of a sudden the conversation switches and you're like, oh, okay, 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:02.439 like I'm probably gonna kiss this person now. Obviously the 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:06.560 metaphor is whatever, but it is very similar. It really 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:08.040 is interesting. 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:10.240 You talked about a couple of things. 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.160 You talked about the Tibbs news that that's been fascinating 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:16.160 to We'll switch gears now into kind of like the 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:20.679 brass tacks I guess of the NBA te because I 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:23.319 think everyone's been wanting to know what's going on with 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:27.120 the Knicks. Everyone's wanting to know, how could a new 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:31.360 management team come in hand select the guy. That guy 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:34.560 end up winning Coach of the Year, taking a team 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:36.600 that hasn't been to the playoffs, and god knows how 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:39.800 long to the four seed getting home court advantage, obviously 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:42.679 flaming out to a team that overperformed right, and then 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.439 a year later after a lot of the moves that 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.920 he wanted the management to make did not get made. 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.760 Guys that come in that are very clearly not Tibbs, 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:56.320 guys like not defensive guys, say like Evan Fournier, say 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.400 like Kemba Walker, and then a couple of key injuries. 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.120 How one could see that management team who hands selected 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:07.000 Tibbs going away from him and firing him so early 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:08.040 on in his contract. 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:10.960 Can you just kind of shed light on that evolution, and. 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:13.720 Then how like maybe this team and how they've been 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.679 performing late changes maybe the trajectory of where they go 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:18.280 with Tibbs. 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:23.840 Yeah, I think ultimately, from my understanding, I don't think 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:27.760 his job ever really was in jeopardy, being that, as 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:30.680 I wrote yesterday and as I'll definitely say now, like, 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:33.760 it seems pretty clear Leon Rose has never had any 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:37.160 intention of making the change at his bench. And honestly, 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.840 I've kind of dipped off Twitter a bit in the 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.160 New York World for the last couple of weeks months, 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:45.520 Like when I put that story out, I was honestly 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:49.120 genuinely surprised how many Knicks fans were not happy with 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.840 that news, being that I think, I mean, I live 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:55.680 here in Brooklyn, like a couple months, a couple of 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:58.960 months ago. I mean that bing Bong night feels very 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.840 very very recent, right, And that was still so fresh 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:03.920 off that playoff run, eat and Eat that even after 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:06.640 they flamed out with Atlanta, like the Garden was back, 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:10.000 the city was rocking, and like Tibbs was the guy. 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:16.680 And it's really crazy how quickly the fans can shift gears. 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:19.040 And it's important because in a city like New York 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:22.480 and in many cities, when when when the fans turned 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:26.040 the tide to some degree that loudly, it can absolutely 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.320 get back to ownership, which changes the direction of what 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:33.120 management wants to do, sometimes for worse. And I think 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.440 it is important to recognize here that as much as 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:39.560 James Dolan's gotten his flack over the years, I do 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:44.760 think what I've heard, and it's been pretty consistent over 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:49.480 my career, he seems to give his management free reign 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.000 to do as they do please, which is what I 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:55.120 reported this week that basically the word I got was that, 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.160 you know, ownership. I don't know if it was Dolan specifically, 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.480 but permission, you know, do what you want. If you 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:03.520 want to keep him, great. If you don't find a 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:07.360 new guy, that's fine too. So that's at least interesting, 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:09.640 but that also maybe might not be interesting at all, 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:13.440 being that that's obviously just generally how it's gone, I think, 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:16.800 to the roster point of it all, that's kind of 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.440 been the biggest dynamic I think, and also being that 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:23.920 time and again even last year, like during the regular season, 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.080 teams that would lose to Minnesota, excuse me, lose to 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:31.080 the Knicks, Like I remember Minnesota. One time I was 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:34.000 talking to some guys on that staff after they lost 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:35.960 to the Knicks and they were saying, like, they beat 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.080 you up and were playing four and five nights, and 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:41.000 they don't like they're nights where you want to let 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:43.640 go of the rope because it's just the Tim's defense 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.560 coming at you. In the shortened year COVID, you know, shortness, 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:49.680 with the weird roster crunches and all that type of stuff, 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:52.920 they called their way to the four seed. Juluce Randel 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:54.960 has his career year that a lot of people in 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:58.480 the Knicks organization were already saying back then, this is 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:01.000 not going to be replicable. They're people with the Knicks 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:03.640 at the time who were I mean and still to 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.159 this day in New York, who were saying that, you know, 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:08.720 he's not worth that contract, we should even consider looking 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.399 to trade him at that deadline, that conversation happened. I 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:14.920 definitely have written this, but they never really did really 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:17.760 entertain that that Julius was their guy that wanted to reward. 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.159 He was the kind of focal point that was going 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:23.880 to lift them continually through the playoffs, and maybe someone 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:26.240 like Dame was gonna want to come right That was 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:29.480 kind of the goal. And obviously we are not there 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.440 right now. So I recognize why fans would want to 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:37.000 have a drastic change here. But everything I've heard, it 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:40.000 seems like coach in front office are still generally on 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:43.360 the same page, and they recognize the rosters flawed. They've 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:47.399 got things to adjust and really restructure this summer. I 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:49.480 do think they're going to try to be very active 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.480 in doing so. I don't want to say that there's 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:54.679 going to be a lot of activity, though definitively, because 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.240 they seemed very destined to do that at the deadline. 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.280 And as I wrote also yesterday, the way the Nicks 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:04.000 apparently operate as a front office in these negotiations, they 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:07.760 get a little picky and they I mean no pun intended, 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:10.120 but they really want extra draft picks all the time 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:12.520 and all these deals, and it's apparently led to a 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:15.399 lot of these trade talks falling apart. So if that 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:17.919 continues in the off season, I wonder how successful they 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.480 actually will be in really retooling this roster. 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:26.920 Do you think agents, like as a general rule, make 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:31.520 great front office members because it feels like agents want 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:34.560 to just and you've got a bunch of a bunch 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:37.680 of examples of it not being great. You got one 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.959 example obviously of it going really well with Bob Myers 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:43.960 and Golden State, But like it feels like agents always 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:48.280 want to squeeze out every last drop that they can, 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:53.680 to the detriment of maybe harmony between the fraternity. 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:53.919 In the NBA. 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.960 And now you've got guys coming from CIA, right, Leon 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:00.520 Rose has been doing this a long time. World Why West, 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:05.080 who I consider sort of like from above the clouds, 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.320 like you don't. He's got like a tower, a tower 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.840 like villain like castle in the sky and it's like 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:16.399 looking down, yes, and like nobody really sees him or 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:18.080 knows what he's up to, but he's kind of got. 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:19.040 His fingers and everything. 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:23.399 Do you think that that that's something that we're gonna 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:25.879 see moving forward? Do you think that actually like makes sense? 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:33.399 I mean, no, I don't and I don't want to 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:37.480 speak like so definitively on it, because a, the Lakers, 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:40.680 Rob Linka won a championship and it's only been it's 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:42.960 only been less than two it's been two years since 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:47.120 Leon took over in New York. So if I learned 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:51.320 anything like over my years covering team building and the 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:56.480 book reporting, you know, I think it's it's important to 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:58.399 consider the fact that, like a lot of times, something 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:00.800 happens for good and for and for bad that you 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:02.880 didn't expect to happen all of a sudden, Like you're 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:05.040 Memphis and you have John Morant and you're set for 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:08.399 the next decade. Right, So like if the Knicks somehow 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:11.680 when the number one picked this yere right, Like, wow, 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:15.680 the garden looks a lot different, you know. So I 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.320 don't want to definitely say that the end. And the Lakers, 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:20.200 of course, like we already talked about, won a title 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:22.040 and I still got Lebron, Like they got a lot 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:25.080 of options on the table this summer. Like who's to 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:29.280 say what those guys can't continue to accomplish, But it's 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:32.840 there's definitely hasn't seemed to be a smooth process and 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.440 a smooth transition, being that both those tenures have clearly 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:40.000 been riddled with drama and a little bit of chaos 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:45.040 and confusion and deals falling short. And again the Lakers 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:47.680 won the title. But like at the time of the 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:50.280 Anthony Davis trading, still today people on the league always 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:53.959 talk about that being an overpay and that David Griffin 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:56.480 did a pretty solid job and getting a strong haul 0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:59.080 when like there was no other option, like he wanted 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.480 to go to the Lakers, the Lakers wanted him, like 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:03.600 they I mean, they didn't they didn't really have a 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:06.440 need and and you know, they did stuff to kind 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:11.120 of sabotage Boston being a real player to go trade 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:13.200