1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Coll Zone Media. 2 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, Molly here. I know it's not Thursday. This 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 2: isn't a new episode of Weird Little Guys, but I 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 2: think it is something you might enjoy. There's a book 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 2: that comes up a lot on this show, a book 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 2: called Siege by James Mason. It's a foundational text for 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 2: the modern neo Nazi terrorist. It was required reading for 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: members of the Neo Nazi terrorist organization Adam Woffin, and 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 2: it was written by a guy whose life was absolutely 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 2: weird enough for his own series of episodes. One of 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 2: these days, this is an interview with the author of 12 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 2: a book about that book, and I had a great 13 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 2: time talking with Spencer Sunshine about his book Neo Nazi 14 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 2: Terrorism and Countercultural Fascism, The Origins and Afterlife of James 15 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 2: Mason's Siege. I don't actually recommend reading Siege, but if 16 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 2: you're interested in that text, you should definitely check out 17 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 2: Spencer's book about it. The interview went up earlier this 18 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 2: week as an episode of it could happen here another 19 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 2: show on the Cool Zone Media network. But I know 20 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 2: now everybody subscribes to all the shows on the network, 21 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 2: even if you should, and I thought you all might 22 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 2: enjoy this too. It provides a little more context for 23 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 2: that weird Nazi book I keep bringing up. So if 24 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 2: you haven't already heard this episode on another feed, I 25 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 2: hope you'll give it a listener. 26 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome back to it could happen here. 27 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 2: I am once again your occasional host, Molly Conker, and 28 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 2: I am joined today by Spencer Sunshine, the author of 29 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 2: Neo Nazi Terrorism and Countercultural Fascism, The Origins and Afterlife 30 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 2: of James Mason's Siege. It's available now in paperback. I 31 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 2: have my paperback copy from Ritledge Press. So Spencer, I 32 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: guess let's get right into it. 33 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 3: What is Siege and why should we still be talking 34 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 3: about it? 35 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 4: Well, unfortunately, we should still be talking about it because 36 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 4: it's still influential. It was a book originally published in 37 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 4: nineteen ninety three, but that is an edited version of 38 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 4: newsletters published in the eighties by a fellow named James Mason, 39 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 4: who is a lifelong neo Nazi. He joined the American 40 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 4: Nazi Party at age fourteen in nineteen sixty six. He 41 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 4: is still an active ideological believer in national socialism. It's 42 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 4: a book that in it he makes the argument that 43 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:30,679 Speaker 4: any kind of normal legal political activity was pointless for 44 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 4: neo Nazis to engage in and like forming organizations, holding marches, 45 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 4: making the traditional propaganda, trying to build up parties, even 46 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 4: guerrilla warfare. At the end of it, he becomes very 47 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 4: cynical about and he says, through what are essentially dramatic 48 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 4: random acts of violence, of terrorism or murder. He even 49 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 4: goes into praising serial killers like Joseph Paul Franklin, we 50 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 4: can destabilize the government and society and after this neo 51 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 4: Nazis can come to pay. This has become a very 52 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 4: influential idea. More recently he was rediscovered. It was a 53 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 4: pretty obscure The newsletters were very unpopular that he never 54 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 4: made more than one hundred copies. The original book had 55 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 4: a print run of one thousand, so it was a 56 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 4: sort of obscure text. It was known amongst neo Nazi 57 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 4: circles for some unusual reasons. It became mixed up with 58 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 4: some countercultural figures and that was actually what made it 59 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 4: more well known. But it was revived in twenty fifteen. 60 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 4: It was found by these younger aspiring terrorists, let's say 61 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 4: at the time around a message board called Iron March. 62 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 4: It became the bible of the Adam Offin Division, this 63 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 4: neo Nazi group that its members and associates killed five people, 64 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 4: and out of that everyone in the Adam off And 65 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 4: Division had to read Siege, which became the hashtag. And 66 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 4: out of that grew this whole sort of network, first 67 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 4: of groups and now really totally decentralized like propaganda channels 68 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 4: on Telegram, dub Terogram promoting these same ideas, and so 69 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 4: it's become very influential today. It gets named in like 70 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 4: terrorist manifestos. The school shooter, I think it was in Nashville, 71 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 4: Tennessee that just happened. He makes a reference to people 72 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 4: who are into siege in his writings, and more and 73 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 4: more I've documented before him at least twelve murders that 74 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 4: are either by the Adam Waffin Division, by people inspired 75 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 4: by Siege culture, or by people directly linked to Terogram. 76 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 4: So if we want to look at the main text 77 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 4: animating neo Nazi terrorism today, which has now spread around 78 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 4: the globe, of this groups in Latin America, there's groups 79 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 4: in eastern Western Europe. It's even influencing groups in the 80 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 4: Middle East. Or people in the Middle East. They're called accelerationists. 81 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 4: They want to accelerate the collapse of things. And if 82 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 4: there's a single ideological text today that's influential on the scene, 83 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 4: it is by easily James Mason Siege. 84 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 2: And what I particularly am enjoying about the book, I 85 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 2: just told you before we started recording. 86 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 3: I haven't finished it yet. 87 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 2: What I'm enjoying about this book is so you know, 88 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 2: you were saying that Sames Mason started writing this in 89 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: the eighties, right, but nobody was reading it. It was 90 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 2: very sort of niche. It wasn't popular, even within its 91 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: own niche. He was not a popular man. He had 92 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 2: a lot of beefs with other leaders in the movement. 93 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 2: It's rediscovered in the twenty tens. It's big on Iron March. 94 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 2: It's the animating force behind Adam Waffin. And so all 95 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: of a sudden in the last ten years, people like us, 96 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 2: you know, researchers of the far right, mainstream journalists, people 97 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 2: are talking about Siege, they're talking about Mason. But this, 98 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 2: I think, correct me if I'm wrong, is the only 99 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,799 Speaker 2: book sort of tracing it back to its root. James 100 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 2: Mason did not come into existence in twenty fifteen on 101 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: the pages of Iron March. Right, they sort of dug 102 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 2: back up this writing that was at that point thirty 103 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 2: years old. But this book, I mean, it's an incredible 104 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 2: work of research, but it's also sort of a picuresque, right. 105 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 2: It follows James Mason through decades of Nazi history. 106 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 3: Right. 107 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 2: He wasn't just a guy who wrote a newsletter. He 108 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: was a guy who was in a lot of rooms. 109 00:05:58,160 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 2: He knew a lot of people. So through the leg 110 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 2: of James Mason's life, you can follow the origins of 111 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 2: the modern neo Nazi movement back to the sort of 112 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: splinters and sects and rival personalities of the seventies. Right 113 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 2: that you can't understand modern neo Nazi organizing if you 114 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 2: don't know the history that goes back to the sixties 115 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 2: and seventies. 116 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 4: Well thank you forgetting that. I had someone write a 117 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 4: review and it was an interesting view from the viewpoint 118 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 4: of literary criticism, and he's like, well, this is one 119 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 4: of these books about a book it's not And I'm like, yeah, 120 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 4: it kind of is, but it's really And I started 121 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 4: after I started writing this which has an unusual origin 122 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 4: or just maybe it is a usual origin. Like the 123 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 4: first half is about Neo Nazism in the nineteen seventies, 124 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 4: which is incredibly undocumented. There's a huge problem with a 125 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 4: documentation about the far right in general before twenty fifteen. 126 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 4: Probably more books have come out in the last ten 127 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 4: years about the far right in the US before twenty 128 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 4: fifteen than came out before, and certainly about neo Nazis, 129 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 4: who are almost always when they are written about American 130 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 4: neo Nazis, it's usually in a history of the white 131 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 4: supremacist movement, and there's no differentiation made between them, and 132 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 4: I would say the National Socialists are quite different from 133 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 4: other white supremacists for a variety of different reasons. So 134 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 4: there is no book about Neo Nazism in the nineteen 135 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 4: seventies in the US at all. There are only two 136 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 4: documents I can really name, and they're both written by 137 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 4: National Socialists actually, one in Australia and one the head 138 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 4: of the New Order which used to be the American 139 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 4: Nazi Party. It's actually not bad. It's an eight part 140 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 4: series by Martin Kirk. So the first half is really 141 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 4: reconstructing what happened in the nineteen seventies because this is 142 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 4: what Siege is coming out of. This Siege is an 143 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 4: answer to the questions that faced neo Nazis in the 144 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 4: nineteen seventies. And then the second half of the book 145 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 4: is even I would say less about Mason. It's about 146 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 4: these four countercultural figures who discover Mason, help publish him, 147 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 4: and eventually published and disseminated Siege itself. And part of 148 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 4: that is I was just around the scene these people 149 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 4: were part of in the nineteen nineties. Like I saw 150 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,679 Speaker 4: one of them, boyd Rice play. I had many mutual 151 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 4: friends with another, the publisher Adam Parfrey of Farrell House. 152 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 4: So like, I was like right around what these people 153 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 4: were doing as part of the nineties counterculture. So I 154 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 4: became very interested in that because these people always denied 155 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 4: their background, you know, or s left it off or something. 156 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 4: And I found just so many smoking guns in this 157 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 4: And so I will say how this started is right 158 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 4: after Charlottesville. They unite the Right rally at Charlottesville. Always 159 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 4: you say these things and just you give the name 160 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 4: of the thing, and people are like, wait a minute, 161 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 4: that's like where I live. You know, we're more than that, 162 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 4: you know. I was in Seattle. I was like, oh, 163 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 4: I was at Seattle, referring to this nineteen ninety nine demonstration, 164 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 4: and I'm like, people are here, weren't even necessarily born then, 165 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 4: and just saying at Seattle doesn't mean anything. So after 166 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 4: Unite the Right, there was a spike in popularity in 167 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 4: Siege and the hashtag read siege because it looked like 168 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 4: the rally followed what he said, and he said, no 169 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 4: one in American society will allow neo Nazis to succeed. 170 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 4: And a lot of people don't know this, but what 171 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 4: happened at the initial rally is that it wasn't the 172 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 4: street fighting people might be familiar with, even that's fading 173 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 4: from memory. Was before it was supposed to start, And 174 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 4: when it was supposed to start at noon, the police, 175 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 4: who had been standing a block away and letting everything unfold, 176 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 4: marched in and forced everyone out, meaning the rally never happened. 177 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 3: Nobody ever gave a speech. 178 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 4: Nobody gave a speech. As we know, the car attack 179 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 4: happened like an hour or two later. I got to 180 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 4: look at a timeline, it's all like garbled now right, Yeah, 181 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 4: that sounds right. And the book is co dedicated to 182 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 4: Heather hair I just want to point out. So it 183 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 4: seemed to coincide with what Mason said. He's like, you 184 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 4: can't do legal work, you have to do a terrorism right, 185 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 4: And so there was a spike and interest in it, 186 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 4: and Adam Offfen had been doing more and more. Adam 187 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 4: often people are committing murders, strange murders. They're all very 188 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 4: strange murders, which I think speaks to a lot of 189 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 4: the personalities who are involved in this and other forms 190 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 4: of violence. Even in more structured political movements. I think 191 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 4: it does a tends to attract fringe people, except at 192 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 4: certain times where people are intentionally using it as a 193 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 4: strategy as part of a bigger mass movement. Anyway, these 194 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 4: are questions for terrorism studies, and so there was a 195 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 4: spike of interest in it. So I was going to 196 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 4: write a short article for a think tank I used 197 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 4: to be associated with, which I will not name because 198 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 4: I had such a bad experience with them, and it 199 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 4: was going to be an article. I couldn't get the 200 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 4: facts to line up. As I said, there's terrible scholarship 201 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 4: about this period, and so I used this very sophisticated 202 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 4: research tool called Google, and through that I found that 203 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 4: Mason's papers. There was a huge collection of Mason's papers 204 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 4: at the University of Kansas and Lawrence, Kansas, so I 205 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,959 Speaker 4: decided I'd go there. I thought I'd just straighten these 206 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 4: things out. There were some documents I needed, some very 207 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 4: obscure fanzines and stuff. That'd be the end of the day. 208 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 4: I got through. Well, first I discovered it's not easy 209 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 4: to get to Lawrence, Kansas. You have to fly into 210 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 4: an airport, and then I think I took an uber 211 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 4: for like an hour. There was like one bus a 212 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 4: day or something. Anyway, I got there and started poking 213 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 4: at the papers. It was sixty boxes of his core respondents. 214 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 4: He had letters incoming and outgoing since the early nineteen sixties. 215 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 4: As you mentioned, he was an insider to the neo 216 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 4: Nazi movement, so it was with all these people he 217 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 4: had kept carving copies of his outgoing letters. Was a 218 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 4: unique slice of national socialist life in the United States. 219 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 4: Never seen an archive like it. People didn't keep their 220 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 4: papers because they were doing illegal activities. The government sees 221 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 4: them and has them in a warehouse somewhere or whatever. 222 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 4: This is even in the pre Internet. I can only 223 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 4: do this because it was pre Internet, and there were 224 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 4: paper copies of stuff and of the age where I 225 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 4: grew up doing all research on paper and in archives. 226 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 4: And I quickly found out what I had. And there 227 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 4: were two things. One, as I said, was that there 228 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 4: was this whole story of American neo Nazism, of when 229 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 4: the American Nazi Party splinters then called the National Socialist 230 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 4: White People's Party in the nineteen seventies, and all these 231 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 4: groups come out of it, many of which we know 232 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 4: parts of, like William Peters who wrote the Turner Diaries 233 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 4: and the Skoky incident which is parodied in The Blues Brothers. 234 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 4: Some people don't know this, just so Paul Franklin shooting 235 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 4: and paralyzing the publisher Larry Flint, and some other things. 236 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 4: And I was like, Oh, these are all people who 237 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 4: came out of one thing, a splintering of the party. 238 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 4: And I realized that there basically was a terrorist wing 239 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 4: that came out of the splintering. And people knew Mason 240 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 4: and people knew Pierce, but there was like a couple 241 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 4: other groups or people, but people didn't put it together 242 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 4: that they were all like the most radical wing of 243 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 4: these splinter groups. So there was that story and then, 244 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 4: as I mentioned, there was a second story about these 245 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 4: kuntercultural people who had always denied that they were involved 246 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 4: in national socialism or the level of it. It was 247 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 4: just a joke, all these things that we hear today, 248 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 4: almost word for word. And so I found all their 249 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 4: letters to James Mason, and they're adorned with swastikas and 250 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 4: eight aids, and they're helping him. Had they reveal the 251 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 4: extent that they helped him? And the funny thing is 252 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 4: a lot of this stuff was actually available and out 253 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 4: in the open. It was published books, but it was 254 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 4: like little pieces of flakes of gold scattered around everything, 255 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 4: and I started picking them up because I realized you 256 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 4: could put them together. And so one article turned out 257 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 4: was supposed to be one article, and then it turns 258 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 4: two articles. And I sat down to write it and 259 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 4: turned into a book. And then five years later I 260 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 4: finally had the manuscript done. Then took another year at 261 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 4: the publishers, and then it came out last year. So 262 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 4: it's been seven years of work, and I've been going 263 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 4: around doing talks. I did seventeen talks and supported the 264 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 4: book and as many podcasts and stuff. So I'm still 265 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 4: The book is still part of my life, as much 266 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 4: as I would like to sort of put it down. 267 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:25,959 Speaker 4: But thank you for remedy on the podcast. This is 268 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 4: not great they have me on the podcast. Not against 269 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 4: no diss against you, no shade, no shade no. 270 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 2: And I'm so I'm so jealous of your trip to 271 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 2: Kansas to see the archives. I only recently a year 272 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 2: or two, discovered that his papers existed in those archives, 273 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: and so I wrote to the archivist and I said, like, 274 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 2: you know, are any of these digitized? I would love 275 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 2: to see them. And there's like, you know, we've only 276 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 2: digitized like one box. And they sent me a couple 277 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 2: of a couple of scans, but most of it has 278 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 2: not been digitized. So you have to go to Kansas 279 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: if you want to read this old pedophile Nazis letters 280 00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 2: to Charles Manson. 281 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 4: Well, I do have thousands of pictures I took of 282 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 4: this correspondence. So yeah, if you request digital copies, they 283 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 4: won't tell you what they've digitized. And so it's it's 284 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 4: like you know, trying to like randomly throw darts or something. 285 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 4: If you get the right file, they have them. 286 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 2: And I was like, I was begging and pleading, I 287 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: was like, please, just like any letters you have with 288 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 2: Bob Heyke, I just I just want the Bob Hike letters. 289 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 4: But I can give you the Bob Hyke letters. 290 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 3: I would love those. 291 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 4: I think they'll they'll digitize stuff for a price. 292 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 3: Though, I'm sure. I'm sure if I pay for it, 293 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: they would do me the favor. 294 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 2: But that's the thing, is that there's so much interconnection 295 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: here because these stories always get told episodically, right, like 296 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: the story of James Mason and Adam Woffen, the story 297 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 2: of William Luther Peers, the story of the founding of 298 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: the National Socialist Movement. But nobody takes those pieces and 299 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 2: slots them together because they interlock. They all interlock, right, 300 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: And so this idea of the lone wolf, I mean, 301 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: I guess James Mason's life's work is to perpetuate and 302 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 2: motivate the lone wolf. But is it really a lone 303 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 2: wolf if he's training them. 304 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 4: Well, the lone wolf question is is a long question. 305 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 4: A lot of people know Metzger moved to the lone 306 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 4: wolf strategy after a war was sued by the SPLC 307 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 4: and collapse, but Mason was advocating this beforehand and was 308 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 4: very tight with Metzger. So there is actually a book 309 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 4: describing what you've said, putting the pieces together, and it's 310 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 4: called Neo Nazi Terrorism and Counterculturals exactly. It's the I 311 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 4: think which you can buy today. 312 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 2: I mean, like I said, it is the only book 313 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 2: that I know of that fits these pieces together. 314 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 4: No, it is the only book. Actually, I've been in 315 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 4: contact with James Mason, and he said when radio interview, 316 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 4: it's not the first of its kind, but it's the 317 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 4: best of its kind. 318 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 2: A high praise from the book's Nazi pedophile subject. Why 319 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 2: did he donate his papers to the library, because, like 320 00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: you said, most people are not not only not per 321 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 2: deserving these items where they're not preserving them at all 322 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 2: because they know what they've done is illegal or embarrassing 323 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: to everyone involved, and they're intentionally destroying the evidence of 324 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 2: these kinds of communications. But he not only saved them, 325 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: but he wanted to make sure we could read them. 326 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 2: Did you talk to him at all about why he 327 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 2: did that? 328 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 4: Well, he sold them. He was a wheeler dealer in 329 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 4: especially American Nazi Party memorabilia. You know, he sold furniture 330 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 4: on the side like antiques. He'd go antiquing, and he 331 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 4: if you've seen pictures of his apartment, it's filled with 332 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 4: Nazi nickknacks. Right, he's got a knife collection. 333 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 2: I mean, it looks like it looks like the Area 334 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: Nation's booth at the Tulsa Gun Show. 335 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 4: It looks like my apartment, but like the in the 336 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 4: inverse and fewer plants. So he was a collector, so 337 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 4: he was already on. My understanding is he was already 338 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 4: selling George Lincoln Rockwell memoryabilia or whatever, papers and such. 339 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 4: Two Kansas. They have this collection there called the Wilcox 340 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 4: Collection of anti Extremist stuff. This guy, Lair Wilcox, had 341 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 4: been in early students for Democratic Society before they took 342 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 4: the like Marxist turn, and then decided that the left 343 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 4: and the right were the same, like in the seventies 344 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 4: or something, and started collecting all this material. So they 345 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 4: were one of the they're probably the biggest collection of far 346 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 4: right material. And as I said, at the time, libraries 347 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 4: weren't collecting it and people weren't writing about it. They 348 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 4: were like, oh, these are just a bunch of kooks 349 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 4: and wing nuts. They're not important. And some of this 350 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 4: is because, like as I say in the book, the 351 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 4: first neo Nazi mass murder wasn't until the late seventies, 352 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 4: like it was what we know as neo Nazism today 353 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 4: really only emerged in the seventies, is when my arguments 354 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 4: in the book. So the papers were there because he 355 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 4: sold them. The second thing is he is unique, I 356 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 4: think not unique, but very uncommon because he is an 357 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 4: unabashed neo Nazi. He does not try to hide it. 358 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 4: He is not like the NSM, which is actually a 359 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 4: party he co founded shockingly but left over it as 360 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 4: they turned because originally it was to promote violence, and 361 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 4: then as it turned to a more traditional Hollywood Nazi party, 362 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 4: he left. But it's the same one that was at Charlottesville, 363 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 4: and Jeff's Scoop was the head of I actually taught 364 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 4: Jeff Scoop about how the party was founded. That was 365 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 4: very interesting. I interviewed him for the book. 366 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 3: Another one of those dishonest actors. 367 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 4: Well, the guy who had made him the head of 368 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,479 Speaker 4: the party, who was actually the second head, Harrington, cliff Harrington. 369 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 4: Clifford Harrington did not give him the truthful account of 370 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 4: the parties founding. Harrington claimed he was a co founder 371 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 4: and he wasn't he claimed a different date. This is 372 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 4: one reason I spent so much time on stuff. Also 373 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 4: that I found all these things that had been printed 374 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 4: that were wrong. The bi scholars and others that were 375 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 4: and it wasn't their fault. They were taken. It was 376 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 4: hard to get these harder to get these documents, especially 377 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 4: when a group is moving. And so Harrington claimed he 378 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 4: had been a co founder in nineteen seventy four or whatever, 379 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 4: but he was lying. Mason was one of the co 380 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 4: founders and not him. He only became the head in 381 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 4: the eighties. So this is some of this stuff I found. Anyway, 382 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 4: I was going to say the NSM at one point 383 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 4: go where not Neo Nazis were National Socialists. 384 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 5: I was like, get the fuck out of here, like really, 385 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 5: like come all, your flag is a swastikonic ah. I mean, 386 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 5: this is absurd, but people will do that, right, It's 387 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 5: like the Dead Parrots skit in Monty Python. 388 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 4: If people know this and so. But Mason stands out 389 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 4: because he's always been very upfront about his views. He's 390 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 4: very proud of them. He's not ashamed, and if it's 391 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 4: embarrassed other people, they didn't belong. He's as he told 392 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 4: to me they didn't believe in the One True religion. 393 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 4: So I asked him about these counterculture figures who have 394 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 4: denied they were ever involved in this stuff. At the time, 395 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 4: he was convinced they were National socialists, and he was like, well, 396 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 4: they believed in something else other than the One True Faith. 397 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 4: I think that's the word he used. So yeah, he 398 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 4: is nothing to hide. He's very open about it, very 399 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 4: open about promoting terrorism, as you know, and maybe some 400 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 4: of the listeners do. Young neo Nazis go to his 401 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 4: apartment and he tutors them. They take pictures with him. 402 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 4: This included Sam Woodward, who murdered a young gay Jewish man, 403 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 4: Blaze Bernstein recently sent his to life in prison. There's 404 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 4: picture is a Woodword in Mason's apartment. So yeah, I 405 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 4: mean he wants is He's proud of his lineage and 406 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 4: he wants it documented. And I know I did him 407 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 4: a favor by writing a book about his movement. I mean, 408 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 4: they don't have the intellectuals and the resources to in 409 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 4: the train people to write historical books, and I did 410 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 4: it a pretty straight up book. Even Mason was like, 411 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 4: I kept waiting to read the smear I kept waiting 412 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 4: for the smear. There was no smear. I was like, yeah, 413 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 4: I just wrote it as a history book, and so 414 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 4: in a way I've given them an insight into their 415 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 4: history which wouldn't exist otherwise. So this stuff is always 416 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 4: a double edged sword when you cover as you know, 417 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 4: when you cover fascist groups, they want the publicity, by 418 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 4: and large. I was told sometimes at the SPLC, like 419 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 4: groups contact them and they're like, cover us, give us. 420 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 3: Coverage, sending them their press releases. 421 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. 422 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 2: But I mean, I think someone like Mason, I guess 423 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 2: he doesn't see this smear because, like you said, he's 424 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 2: proud of himself. So this is I think is an 425 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 2: honest appraisal of his legacy, and most people would see 426 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 2: that as a but he's proud of it. 427 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 4: Well, it's not a smear. I don't need to say 428 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 4: anything bad about him. He's there promoting Nazi terrorism. What's 429 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 4: the point of, like, you know, denouncing this or something. 430 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 2: I mean, Whereas I think someone like Pierce, I think 431 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 2: sometimes when people write honestly about Pierre, obviously he's been 432 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 2: dead for twenty five years, but he resisted the characterization 433 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 2: that he was inciting terrorism, even though he like Mason 434 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: very much, was. 435 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 4: Oh well, Pierce is just a liar. I mean, all 436 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 4: these guys exactly. 437 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 3: That's what I mean. 438 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 2: But I think a book like this about Pierce, I 439 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 2: think he would not have enjoyed, whereas Mason is at 440 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 2: least honest about his legacy. 441 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 4: You know, there is a terrible book about Pierce by 442 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 4: one of the sycophants who is a professor actually Griffin. 443 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that again, that is one of those dishonest histories. 444 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 2: I think we were talking before we started recording that 445 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 2: the problem with archival research trying to write a history 446 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 2: of these movements is they are dishonest actors. 447 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 3: And so Robert S. Griffin, he wrote, what is it 448 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 3: the fame of a dead Man's Deeds? Is that what 449 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 3: it's called? 450 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 2: He went into it, you know, saying like, I'm going 451 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 2: to write this neutral appraisal of this figure of the movement, 452 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 2: about William Luther Pierce. And over the weeks that he 453 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 2: spent on the compound to write it, and he spent 454 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 2: time with Peers on the compound in Hillsborough, became radicalized 455 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 2: and is a Nazi. Now are he still alive? I mean, 456 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 2: he could take issue with that characterization if he wants. 457 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: But I'm sure you've read the book. 458 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 3: It's not neutral. It's a has giography of Peers. 459 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 4: Yeah. There's actually a book by Pierce's son too, which 460 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 4: is interesting. 461 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 3: I've read that. It's quite good. 462 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 4: Well, unfortunately a lot of it's copy pasta. 463 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: But. 464 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 2: I think his insight into his relationship with his father 465 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 2: is very unique. It is called The Sins of My 466 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 2: Father by Kelvin Pearce. I mean, that's a window you 467 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 2: don't often get, although I guess now we do also 468 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 2: have the Klansman's Son by Don Black's daughter. 469 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 4: Black's daughter or son. 470 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 3: She has transitions. 471 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 4: Oh, I did not know that, well, Mazeltov. Yeah, yeah, 472 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 4: I remember reading their work before Trump, and they actually 473 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 4: wrote one of the most moving resignations from the movement 474 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 4: that I've read, very much taking you know, being accountable, 475 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 4: even though they were raised in it. And I feel like 476 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 4: children raised in this are not like as accountable as 477 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,239 Speaker 4: adults are, right, especially like they were in college at 478 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 4: the time. But it was like a true interesting working 479 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 4: through it, and I felt like heartfelt apology for it. 480 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 4: And yeah, actually this is a fun fact. You may 481 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 4: know a member of the Aryan Nationalist Action A and A. 482 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 4: This terrorist is a bank robbing group from the eighties, 483 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 4: I think became the first person to transition gender. 484 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 3: From Donald Lanyan. 485 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 2: Donna Langen was known as pretty Boy Pedro when she 486 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 2: was the head of the Argan Republican Armies, a bank 487 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 2: robbery gang out of Ellaheim City. Yeah, she was the 488 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 2: first person to win a battle with the federal government 489 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 2: to transition in federal. 490 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 4: Prison to get surgery. 491 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 492 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 2: And just recently, actually, there was a filing in her case. 493 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 2: She's trying to get the way the case is titled 494 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 2: in the court records is still Peter Langan, her dead name, 495 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 2: and the judge denied her petition to retitle the case. 496 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 3: But she has transitioned and is in a women's prison. 497 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 4: Is she in Texas? 498 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 3: Oh gosh, I could look up in the BOP where 499 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:15,959 Speaker 3: she is. 500 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 4: Texas bans prisoners from changing their names. 501 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,719 Speaker 3: She is in FMC cars. 502 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 4: Well, that isn't in Dallas, Texas. Yea, yeah, that's why. 503 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 4: That's why. 504 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 2: So she's still in the BOP system under her dead name, 505 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 2: but she was allowed to physically transition. So that's again 506 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 2: just a strange twist of history, right, that the person 507 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 2: who won that legal model for us was a Nazi 508 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 2: bank robber. 509 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 4: Well, she has also long repudiated those politics. So I 510 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 4: think she's been the only person to have surgery transperson 511 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 4: has surgery who was in prisoned at the time, because 512 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 4: I think that was recently and then everything, you know, 513 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 4: everything they changed. They I know that they slowed down 514 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 4: their transpower waiting to see the results of the election. 515 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 4: So for a strange reason, I know, actually a bunch 516 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 4: of the stuff about trans people in prison and so anyway. 517 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 3: No, it's I mean, it's a remarkable, remarkable history. 518 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. 519 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So you started writing this book after Unite the Right. 520 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 3: Because there was this renewed interest in siege. 521 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: I mean, because what has the experience been, like, you know, 522 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 2: over the course of spending the last six years of 523 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 2: your life working on this, realizing that it is only 524 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 2: becoming more relevant and not less. 525 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 4: Well, the problem is is like for people like us 526 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 4: who watch the far right, like our work is only 527 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 4: important or people are only interested in it when there 528 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 4: is a big upswing, and then like that's when people 529 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 4: are interested and that's when it is more important. So 530 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 4: on one hand, it's good that I didn't spend five 531 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 4: years and then no one remembered what siege was and 532 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 4: it was just a blip. I mean, that's good for me, 533 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 4: but I have to say what's good for me is 534 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 4: bad for society. 535 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 2: And so, I mean, I think it would have been 536 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 2: an important work of history regardless. But I guess as 537 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 2: you're working on it, realizing that the body count is 538 00:25:58,280 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 2: only growing. 539 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's I don't know, I don't really you know, 540 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 4: what do you say about that? I call these people 541 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 4: empty people spreading emptiness. Like it's hard for me even 542 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 4: to get mad at the more aggressive neo Nazis and 543 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 4: white supremacists. Like often they're young, and I just see 544 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 4: like sad young people who can't deal with their problems, 545 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 4: engaged in like hurting other people who are often not 546 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 4: so different than them, you know. I mean there's a 547 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 4: trans man who was in Adam. Often, you know, like 548 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 4: they're yeah, numerous stories of people being you know, of 549 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 4: not white descent, either they're hiding that they're not, or 550 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 4: they're a mixed race descent and they're sort of passing 551 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 4: as wide of being Jewish and being queer, all this stuff. 552 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 4: The movement's filled with these people. Sometimes it's the people 553 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 4: are even like how many straight white men are there 554 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 4: in the movement, Like and it's just sad. You're like, 555 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 4: I see you're being attracted to this because you're so 556 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 4: alienated or you were so your identity is so shaky 557 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 4: that you are attracted to this idea of a firm, 558 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 4: strong identity. And I mean sometimes people forget fascism in 559 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 4: Italy and Germany arose and basically the last two countries 560 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 4: that arose and solidified in Europe, Like those were countries 561 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 4: that wasn't clear what Italy was going to be. There's 562 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 4: such differences between the north and the south. There's no reason, 563 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 4: Like it was unclear originally whether Germany was going to 564 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 4: be Austria too, you know, and so they were. It's 565 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 4: a way part of fascism is shoring up that national identity, 566 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 4: which was very fragmented, and it works the same I 567 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 4: think with people's identities. And one of the one of 568 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 4: the things that attracts people to neo Nazism, I think 569 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 4: is this strong affirmation of an identity, and people with 570 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 4: mixed identities or conflicted about it or filled with self 571 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 4: loathing are drawn to this for that reason. One of 572 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 4: the many reasons. People get drawn. 573 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 3: Into these things, and they recruit so young. 574 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 2: I mean, I think in the book you're talking about this, 575 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 2: you know, all the way back to James Mason's origins 576 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 2: that he became interested in the Nazi Party is a 577 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 2: fourteen year. 578 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 4: Old joined it, joined it at fourteen. 579 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 2: So he's a child, right getting into this movement, and 580 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 2: now that he is an old man, he is in 581 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 2: turn in doctrinating children. Right that Adam Woffen members are 582 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,199 Speaker 2: very young, I guess were Adam Woffin technically doesn't exist anymore, 583 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 2: but most of the most of the young men who 584 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 2: spilled blood for Adam Waffen were twenty years old, nineteen 585 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 2: years old. 586 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 4: And you know, someone pointed out the founder of the 587 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 4: feuer Krieg Division when he founded it was twelve. He 588 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 4: was arrested when he was thirteen or fourteen, but he 589 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 4: founded it at twelve. 590 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 2: And which tragic, obviously tragic, heartbreaking, disgusting. But imagine being 591 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 2: one of the adults who is in that. 592 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 3: Group and finding out that your fear was twelve. 593 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 4: I grew up in the South in an extremely Protestant 594 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 4: area at the height of that like eighties fundamentals Christian 595 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 4: Christian right thing, and there were I knew about. These 596 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 4: are kind of an older thing, child preachers. Have you 597 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 4: ever heard of child preachers? This was a big thing 598 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 4: during the. 599 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, they speak in tongues and they sort of parrot 600 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 2: the cadence of the way adults speak. 601 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 3: But if you listen carefully, they're not saying anything. 602 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 4: If they've memorized the way that adults give these barn 603 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 4: burning you know, adult Protestants Evangelicals give these barn burning sermons, 604 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 4: but they don't necessarily understand what they're saying. And so, 605 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's pretty common people adults will 606 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 4: do this. They believe in what they're saying. Maybe they 607 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 4: understand it a little better. I think there's a bunch 608 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 4: of post structuralist academics who don't even understand what they're saying. 609 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 4: But that could happen too, And so I think people like, well, 610 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 4: I don't know, I was a pretty smart twelve year old. 611 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 4: Maybe I would understand it better. But you just need 612 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 4: somebody repeating it. It's the slogans and the narratives have 613 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 4: already been formed by others. You're not necessarily innovating on it. 614 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 4: As long as you can repeat the dogma. It doesn't 615 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 4: really matter who's saying. It doesn't matter if you're at 616 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 4: the person is gay or Jewish. 617 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 3: And I mean the Estonian twelve year old was not 618 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 3: a one off. 619 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 4: You know. 620 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 2: In the Ethan Melzer case a year or two ago, 621 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 2: Ethan Melzer was a US Army private who was trying 622 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 2: to set up his unit in Turkey to be attacked 623 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 2: by Middle Eastern terrorist groups. And the person he was 624 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: communicating with online sort of goading him into these acts 625 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 2: was a child. 626 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 3: It was a child. 627 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 4: He was the Order of Nine Angles though right he 628 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 4: was ONA. He wasn't a near Nazi, right. I always 629 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 4: try to distinguish there's some nine A's who are not. 630 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 2: He was at the bleed point of Adam Waffin splinter 631 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 2: group and ONA. He was involved with rape Waffen A 632 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 2: was he? 633 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. The lineage of these groups is so messy. 634 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 2: I think some of them don't even understand the ideological 635 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 2: lineage of the sect they've ended up in. But Melzer 636 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 2: was at that sort of bleed point where Adam Woffen 637 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 2: was becoming ONA. 638 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 4: But I think what we're seeing now and definitely in 639 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 4: these last two school shootings in the last month is 640 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 4: a syncretic murder cull. The guy who just did the 641 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 4: nasphoon one was black. But if you start looking at 642 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 4: both of their manifestos, they're referring to all different kinds 643 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 4: of things, some of whom are white supremacists and neo Nazis, 644 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,479 Speaker 4: many of whom aren't just other school shooters, and they 645 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 4: don't seem to have a real ideological, necessarily connection to 646 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 4: some of this the political stuff. It's not become an 647 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 4: O nine A. They are founded by neo Nazi and 648 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 4: many of them are Neo Nazis. And so I was 649 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 4: going to say they're not. They don't have to be, 650 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 4: and all the people aren't. And even if you were 651 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 4: supposed to be they are, they aren't all. And so 652 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 4: we're just getting through these various online forums on Telegram 653 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 4: and elsewhere. Sometimes they just spread over all kinds of 654 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 4: the different platforms. We're getting just this syncretic mix of 655 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 4: these things. And this is one of the things that 656 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 4: made nine A and Siege Culture are parallel Mason's ideas, 657 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 4: because Mason's not a Satanist, and in fact, he's recently 658 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 4: denounced Ordered nine Angles, and when he was around Satanists 659 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 4: they were atheist Satanists around the Church of Saint that 660 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 4: when you start saying, hey, we need to commit random 661 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 4: murders in this goal of destroying the like suppose the 662 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 4: Jewish controlled society, so there could be a white arian revolution. Like, 663 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 4: it doesn't matter if you have a really political reason 664 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 4: or if you're thinking that these heretical acts will destroy 665 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 4: somehow the consensus. Reality, you're just trying to go people 666 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 4: into these violent, random acts of terrorism and more random murders, right. 667 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 3: And the end result is the same they're. 668 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 4: Thinking is the same, and the end results is the same. 669 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 4: So they start cross pollinating. And then what's the difference 670 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 4: between the school shooter cults, you know, and now we 671 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 4: have groups like the Maniac murder cull who are ostensibly political, 672 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 4: ostensibly neo Nazi and Order of nine angle has been 673 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 4: a reality or just like go attack old people from behind. 674 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 4: I mean it's just pathetic stuff. Go, you know, beat 675 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 4: up homeless people and stab them. It's like at some 676 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 4: point often say this and my speeches, and it's become 677 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 4: more and more real. Is like everything blends together in 678 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 4: our society. I think, you know, you start with like 679 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 4: school shooters and it's hard to distinguish them from like 680 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 4: a political mass shooters and from political mass shooters. Right 681 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 4: at one point, it just becomes this one thing that's 682 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 4: like all mixed together because we're having in the United States, 683 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 4: we're having these constant attacks and constant that often the 684 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 4: body account is very high. Like what becomes the difference anymore? 685 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 4: Does it really matter? Like the Allen, Texas guy who 686 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 4: was a Latino neo Nazi who killed a bunch of 687 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 4: people in an outlet mall, this is really a neo 688 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 4: Nazi action, like he was, like clearly if you look 689 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 4: at his stuff or an article called Nazis of Color 690 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 4: about this dynamic. But was his action? How is his 691 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 4: action necessarily any different than like a school shooting or whatever, 692 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 4: or just like you know, it's just like he's going 693 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 4: somewhere and killing random people, Like what is this about? 694 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 4: So I think we're seeing this syncretic murdercal is really 695 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,719 Speaker 4: I know other people have different ways of posing this 696 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 4: that is sprawling out on different online platforms and appealing 697 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 4: to very young, alienated people, probably whose whole lives are online. 698 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 4: I think, especially younger people who went through COVID zoomers, 699 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,240 Speaker 4: and I guess people younger than that would be Generation 700 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 4: Alpha spend more time online than any other generation. Obviously 701 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 4: they must, and this becomes especially when they're much younger 702 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 4: the horizon of the world right, and if they're in 703 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 4: cells and they're not really connected to other people and 704 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 4: they're not connected to their family like it, it just 705 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 4: drives these impulses more and more, and they don't have 706 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 4: the maturity to look outside of it, or to think 707 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 4: about the repercussions of it, or think of have the 708 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 4: empathy to think about how it's going to affect other 709 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 4: people in their families. 710 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 2: And so when it comes to Siege, what would you 711 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 2: say its current role in this sort of evolving syncretic 712 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 2: murder culture that we have, is it is Siege's legacy 713 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 2: now just that it's ideological lineage lives on in sort 714 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 2: of the terogram milieu. 715 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 3: Or is it still itself influential? 716 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 4: Oh, some of this is a question of ideas. I 717 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 4: think sometimes Siege acts as a symbol. People can gesture 718 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 4: that their neo Nazis is a serious neo Nazi four 719 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 4: hundred and fifty page tone. 720 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 3: They didn't read it, they didn't all read it. 721 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, read Siege just like, how many of 722 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 4: you have read Siege? And I found out doing the 723 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 4: work that there's like an edited one hundred page version, 724 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 4: and then there's like a little pocket version, and then 725 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 4: someone even made the ten Tenants of Siege. 726 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 3: There's the spark notes murder called. 727 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,720 Speaker 4: Well Adam Waften Division apparently had a test on Siege 728 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 4: to get in. And I'm like, I know these people 729 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 4: didn't write. They're like a lot of very disturbed or 730 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 4: you know, people who aren't going to like it's a 731 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,399 Speaker 4: boring text. I mean I read it twice in like, I've. 732 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 2: Read portions, but I'm not going to sit here and 733 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 2: say I read the whole book. 734 00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:58,919 Speaker 3: It's four hundred and fifty page. 735 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 4: Man, I read every news letter and the book and 736 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 4: it's yes, no, oh. So it acts as the symbol 737 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 4: to be like, look, we have a serious intellectual thing. 738 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 4: How many Christians have read the Bible. Let's be really sorting. 739 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I think that's the right analogy, right, 740 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 2: that it is a foundational text, but they're not all 741 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 2: sitting down and digesting or even understanding it. Yeah. 742 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 4: I mean, how many Communists have read Dos Capital, even 743 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 4: just volume one, which I have. I would like to 744 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 4: say I have, actually, is it more or less boring 745 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 4: than siege? It's more intellectual and so there's that, and 746 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,280 Speaker 4: there's also like the conclusions are there, right, the whole 747 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 4: argument is developed in siege. But you really just need 748 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 4: to take the conclusions, which is, you can't do any 749 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 4: political work. It's hopeless. You need to go out and 750 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 4: commit dramatic acts of violence to help inspire people, and 751 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 4: then you know, maybe afterwards there'll be some aryan blah 752 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 4: blah blah. Frankly, that's all you need to know about it, 753 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 4: because that's what it advocates. You just need the praxis 754 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 4: that it concludes. And most actstivists aren't intellectuals. Like I 755 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 4: always say, like a movement can have three slogans and 756 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 4: what you need to do on the left, you need 757 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 4: to make sure those are the right slogans pointing in 758 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 4: the right direction, because somebody who flows into activism who's young, 759 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 4: who it doesn't matter if they're young, doesn't have a 760 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 4: background of politics, is going to take the thing seriously 761 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 4: that you say. And you can only say so many 762 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 4: things to people. Political movements are stupid. I mean, this 763 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,240 Speaker 4: is why we are. The ninety nine percent was great, 764 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 4: it was great, it wasn't true. I mean half of 765 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 4: Americans are like it, you know, support the Republicans, but like, 766 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 4: it's like one thing, and then the person can think 767 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,800 Speaker 4: about those things. They're not going to have complicated ideas. 768 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 4: So what is what are the slogans that come out 769 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 4: of something? What are the basic what does it boil 770 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 4: down to the things you're saying? And people have inherited 771 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 4: that from Siege or inherited it secondhand, you know, because 772 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 4: Terogram is very well versed in what Siege is about. 773 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 4: I mean Adam often had to read it, so they 774 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 4: were more I think, into it as a text. And 775 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 4: then as it's gone out, you know, Tarogram people, the 776 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 4: Tterogram collective certainly knew what was in it and stuff, 777 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 4: and so people are being affected by it even if 778 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 4: they don't know, even if they haven't read, or even 779 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 4: if they don't know, that's the origin of those ideas. 780 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 2: Right. 781 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 3: So Terogram is directly downstream of Siege. Right. 782 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 2: So Siege was a newsletter that became a book. People 783 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 2: read the book, and the people who read that book 784 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 2: turned it back into a zine. Right, So it's it's 785 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 2: sort of oh to someone it's moving through its phases 786 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 2: and now it's regressing back into sort of mimetic zine form. 787 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 4: But people who join these movements who want something more intellectual, 788 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 4: because everyone who joins a religious or political movement, some 789 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 4: people want a more rigorous They're like, well, what's the 790 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:39,800 Speaker 4: reason for this? Well, I have these questions. How do 791 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 4: you answer them? What is why are we doing this? 792 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 4: Want more rigorous? Some people want a more rigorous background 793 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,479 Speaker 4: can turn to siege, and as they get older, will 794 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 4: turn to siege or move out of it. And they're like, 795 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 4: what were the ideas behind this? Why did we have 796 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 4: these ideas? And I think that's it's normal. I mean, 797 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 4: there are all kinds of weird intellectual groundings for white supremacists. 798 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,800 Speaker 4: A lot of it is theology, which is sort of curious. 799 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 4: And I kind of concluded at some point that you 800 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 4: just needed something complicated because they couldn't use race science anymore, 801 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 4: and there weren't people who developed social science other than 802 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 4: someone like Alndebenoist, who's saying something much more complicated than 803 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 4: most white supremacs are. And so like theology just allowed 804 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 4: something intellectual for people to chew on, you know what 805 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 4: I mean, Like people are real smart who are very 806 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 4: analytical want something to chew on with the ideas, whether 807 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,359 Speaker 4: it really changes their practice or not. And I think 808 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 4: there has to be something that serves that need. 809 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,320 Speaker 2: And so I guess wrapping up, because we're supposed to 810 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 2: keep these daily shows short. What is the takeaway that 811 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,359 Speaker 2: you want people to to come away from this book with? 812 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 2: I guess, especially in this political moment. 813 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,399 Speaker 4: I think there's two things. The book has two things. One, 814 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,959 Speaker 4: I just want to have people have a better understanding 815 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 4: of neo Nazism in the US and how it developed. 816 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 4: It's just one big blur. It's part of other things, 817 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 4: and I see it as a distinct strain. And I 818 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,280 Speaker 4: want people to have a just a better understan standing 819 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 4: of that political movement's origins, which is maybe a more 820 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 4: scholarly thing. And I am my next book, I hope 821 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 4: if I can get a contract, is to write a 822 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 4: history of national socialism in America, because again, there's not 823 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 4: a single book that describes that, which is very strange. 824 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 4: Certainly not a history post war, and there may be 825 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 4: a pre war one, but not one that puts it 826 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 4: all together. So there's a lot of ignorance about this movement. 827 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,800 Speaker 4: And the second part about the cultural actors is about 828 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 4: the danger of taking a radical cultural movement and to 829 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 4: use impulses like transgression and turn them into the very 830 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 4: toxic politics, into terrorist politics. At the end of the day, 831 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,320 Speaker 4: I had a discussion on Blue Sky. It was amazing. 832 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 4: You could see. It wasn't Twitter. I had a useful 833 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 4: discussion on Blue Sky and where I learned something. It 834 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 4: was just fabulous. And it was this woman posted that, 835 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,920 Speaker 4: which is like essentially in Matzau I read it. In 836 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 4: the twentieth century, there was always this assumption that transgressive art, 837 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 4: avant garde art was implicitly progressive. Sometimes it was ideological, 838 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 4: but even and it wasn't even when it had some 839 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 4: dodgy elements, the impulse of it led to progressive, left 840 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 4: leaning politics, and it's very transgression was progressive. And I mean, 841 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 4: these guys I'm looking at are and working in the 842 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 4: eighties and you see it now. We've all seen it 843 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 4: with four Chan like that was never that isn't true, 844 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 4: and that was never true true, right. I mean, those 845 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 4: of us in the punk scene in the eighties and 846 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 4: nineties could see this, even if we certainly didn't put 847 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 4: it that way. With like skinheads in particular. It was 848 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 4: contested terrain where people were trying to take the subculture 849 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 4: and pull it to the left and right right. There 850 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 4: were so many Nazis, but there were anti fascist skinheads too, Sharps. 851 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,279 Speaker 4: Sharps to some extent, Sharps were a lot of them 852 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,799 Speaker 4: are righting nationalists, they just weren't just Nazis. This is 853 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 4: a common There was grips like rash Red and anarchist 854 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 4: skinheads who still exist, but there was a contested terrain 855 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 4: where people trying to pull it in different directions. This 856 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 4: is still the case in neo folk and heathen religious circles, 857 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 4: and that's sort of you. There's an implication which I 858 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,799 Speaker 4: don't think I can only like put it into words now, 859 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,239 Speaker 4: that like the transgressive elements of these subcultures didn't necessarily 860 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 4: go one way or the other, and it was something 861 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,360 Speaker 4: you'd have to fight over, like they could go in 862 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 4: any direction. And I think it was clear in four 863 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 4: Chan early on. I once was mentioned very early on 864 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:17,360 Speaker 4: in four Chan and someone chimed in and they're like, 865 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 4: leave him alone, he's my friend. And I'm like, which 866 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 4: of my friends are on four Chan and defending me? 867 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:24,920 Speaker 4: But like four Chan didn't have to end up the 868 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 4: way it did. You know, the earlier internet culture wasn't 869 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:33,040 Speaker 4: like this. It was progressive or libertarian, or a more 870 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 4: decent libertarian for reading of libertarianism than we have now. 871 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 4: So that's the second part. I mean, other than these guys, 872 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:41,879 Speaker 4: if you ever were in the industrial or neo folk 873 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 4: scene and you heard about there's Nazis, I have all 874 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,319 Speaker 4: of the receipt in detail in the book. If that's 875 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 4: of interest to you. 876 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, Boyd Rice will tell you he never meant it, 877 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 2: but I've read some of the primary documents that lead 878 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 2: me to believe otherwise. 879 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 5: Yeah. 880 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,400 Speaker 4: And I even made a video of him creatively entitled 881 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 4: Boyd Rice New Nazi Collaborator. And I know you're like Spencer, 882 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 4: what are you really getting at here? And I show 883 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 4: the letters and stuff, and just if you're not familiar 884 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 4: with these figures, I know a lot of people there 885 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,279 Speaker 4: were very obscure movements at the time, and you know, 886 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 4: people are not familiar with them, But I think are 887 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 4: familiar enough with this idea of like a super radical 888 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 4: cultural movement about step by step I show how it 889 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 4: can move into fully politicized a transgressive movement can move 890 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:27,360 Speaker 4: into a fully politicized, super toxic neo Nazism that is 891 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,400 Speaker 4: espousing terrorism, and that that this is something that we 892 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 4: always have to watch out for in our own religious 893 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 4: movements and our own cultural movements and accult circles. I 894 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,920 Speaker 4: just did a podcast with some you know, a cult 895 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 4: style esoteric podcast, and I'm talking about Satanists to become Nazis. 896 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,319 Speaker 4: Satanists are sort of i would say split these days, 897 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 4: but there's definitely a Nazi, you know, peace in there 898 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 4: are a very visible one. And so some of it's 899 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:52,880 Speaker 4: just about these things. 900 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 2: That's an important takeaway too that you know, in any subculture, 901 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 2: especially the sort of transgressive subcultures like you know, counterculture 902 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 2: music and art, and you know, occult spaces have a 903 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 2: magical practice that you engage in people who engage in, 904 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 2: you know, practice pagan faiths in all these subcultures, you 905 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,240 Speaker 2: need to call out these bad actors early and often 906 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:16,840 Speaker 2: push back, don't let them bully you, and push them 907 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:17,239 Speaker 2: out of your. 908 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 4: Spaces absolutely, and Nazis ruin everything. They intentionally go into 909 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 4: all these spaces and sometimes don't intentionally. Actually this was 910 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,920 Speaker 4: a comment on Stormfront. I learned from talking about Nazis 911 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 4: and the animal rights movement, and they're like, Spencer doesn't understand. 912 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 4: We're not infiltrating these movements. We're just vegans. We're just 913 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:42,520 Speaker 4: also Nazis. Like, but we're not vegans because we're Nazis. 914 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 4: We're not coming here from some other reason. 915 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:46,919 Speaker 3: Well, you can't let them sit with you either way. 916 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 4: Well, this is a funny story. I don't know if 917 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 4: you have tied, but I heard this story from a 918 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 4: friend of mine that they were in a vegan group 919 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 4: in southern California, I think, and they had a unofficial party, 920 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,360 Speaker 4: like a barbecue. It's people from the group, from the 921 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,440 Speaker 4: group doing it. People brought their partners. It wasn't an 922 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,760 Speaker 4: official group function. But this one member of the group 923 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:09,319 Speaker 4: brought her husband, who is Kevin McDonald. Oh, and they 924 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,240 Speaker 4: were vegetarians or vegans, and people were like holy fuck. 925 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,439 Speaker 4: And he was like, I mean, I feel a little 926 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,200 Speaker 4: sympathetic to him. He's like, hey, man, I don't know, 927 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 4: I'm just I'm a I'm a vegetarian or whatever. I'm 928 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 4: here with my wife. She's going to a party. 929 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,400 Speaker 2: Like, no, you're not allowed to have friends. You're not 930 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 2: allowed to have friends you're not allowed to have hobbies, 931 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:26,960 Speaker 2: you can't be here. 932 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, but he's like, I'm not here to recruit anyone. 933 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:32,600 Speaker 4: I'm here, you know what I mean. 934 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,319 Speaker 2: It's the barbecue is over when the race scientist shows up. 935 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,839 Speaker 4: Well, this became a big discussion in the group about 936 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:40,680 Speaker 4: whether to push him out or not. But you have 937 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 4: to do these things. And if you even if you 938 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,120 Speaker 4: don't want to, they're my friend or everyone's welcome or whatever. 939 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,399 Speaker 4: What is gonna end up happening if you don't push 940 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:49,319 Speaker 4: the Nazi. 941 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,080 Speaker 3: Out is that more Nazis show up. 942 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,200 Speaker 4: Well, if it's a single person, people are gonna start leaving. 943 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,799 Speaker 4: People of color are gonna leave, Jews are gonna leave, 944 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 4: LGBTQ plus people are gonna leave, and you're gonna end 945 00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,719 Speaker 4: up the one person losing many more So, even just 946 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,840 Speaker 4: on your own, you know, enlightened self interest if you 947 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 4: want to keep your group together. And I've seen this 948 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,879 Speaker 4: again and again and again, and then they're like, you're 949 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,920 Speaker 4: defending a Nazi, so you're one too, So yeah, you 950 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 4: got to kick these people out, even just for practical reasons. 951 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,359 Speaker 4: I have a very low bar for people these days, 952 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 4: and I try to appeal I try to appeal to 953 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,400 Speaker 4: the baser reasons sometimes with people. 954 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:24,759 Speaker 3: You know well. 955 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 2: If you would like to learn more about how a 956 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 2: couple of guys in the counterculture movement in the eighties 957 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,520 Speaker 2: are responsible for the publication of the book that serves 958 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,719 Speaker 2: as the bible for modern Nazi terrorism, you can pick 959 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 2: up a copy of Neo Nazi Terrorism and Countercultural Fascism, 960 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 2: The Origins and Afterlife of James Mason's Siege by Spencer 961 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,440 Speaker 2: Sunshine from Routlige Press is available, I think wherever books 962 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,759 Speaker 2: are sold. I bought my copy directly from the publisher 963 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 2: Routledge Press. I think it was only twenty seven dollars. 964 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,719 Speaker 2: You know, a bargain and a steal, So pick up 965 00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,279 Speaker 2: a copy of that and where else can people find 966 00:46:59,320 --> 00:46:59,600 Speaker 2: your work? 967 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,000 Speaker 4: Spencer, thank you for now that you mentioned that. I 968 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:06,080 Speaker 4: am on all of the socials usually at Transform sixty 969 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,120 Speaker 4: seven eight nine. Have a webpage if you want. If 970 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,800 Speaker 4: you have an RSS feed. If someone said this recently, 971 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 4: they're like, it's actually one of the better ways to 972 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,839 Speaker 4: keep track of people, as like this is your follow 973 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,400 Speaker 4: rezillion people anyway, Spencersunshine dot com. Also, if you'd like 974 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,040 Speaker 4: to support anti fascist research and get a warm, fuzzy feeling. 975 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,239 Speaker 4: You should sign up for my Patreon for as little 976 00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:26,839 Speaker 4: as two dollars a month. You can help me out 977 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,719 Speaker 4: with the rent and get some exclusive content. So yeah, 978 00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:31,680 Speaker 4: hell yeah. 979 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,080 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us today. 980 00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me on the show. It's been great. 981 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,840 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 982 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,080 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 983 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on me, 984 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,799 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. 985 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:50,799 Speaker 3: You listen to podcasts. 986 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,080 Speaker 1: You can now find sources for It could Happen Here, 987 00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,080 Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.