Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukleman.
Speaker 2: This is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called
Speaker 2: The Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper,
Speaker 2: and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast,
Speaker 2: presented by f h F Gear, American Maid, purpose built
Speaker 2: hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged
Speaker 2: as the place as we explore. So yesterday I was
Speaker 2: checking my multary app as I'm prone to do in
Speaker 2: the evenings primetime, and I see a gilly suited figure
Speaker 2: come across my trail camera and it's Bear and he
Speaker 2: he leans in front of the camera with this arrow
Speaker 2: like this, and there's a rabbit hanging down from his arrow,
Speaker 2: and he's got his self bow. And it was basically
Speaker 2: like sometimes Bear has a challenge in communicating with his father,
Speaker 2: especially when he's in the field. When he's in the field,
Speaker 2: I'm constantly like give me updates, like what do you see?
Speaker 2: Like I need play by play, Like I even say
Speaker 2: I want to know every blue Jay that you see,
Speaker 2: you know, like give me the details, And I get
Speaker 2: like two updates a day, like if he's a long
Speaker 2: ways away. So I felt like this was like a
Speaker 2: picture's worth a thousand words.
Speaker 3: It was like, what more do you need to know?
Speaker 3: You needed to see?
Speaker 2: Hey, you know what you So we're here with Jordan
Speaker 2: Sellers of Meat Eater, of the new podcast Blood Trails
Speaker 2: on meat Eater. That's just done really well. We're going
Speaker 2: to talk all about it. But me and Bear have
Speaker 2: a scenario that the world nothing about that we need
Speaker 2: some input on them. Bear had a trail camera out
Speaker 2: on public land over here and left it out maybe
Speaker 2: a little bit too long during GUNN season, which I
Speaker 2: would have advised him against doing.
Speaker 1: Somebody stole it.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and they did not turn the video off
Speaker 2: really yeah, And I'm a little nervous to share all
Speaker 2: the details, but I think I can't see any reason
Speaker 2: why I wouldn't. It was a kid, oh like a like.
Speaker 1: Maybe like a twelve year old kid. Yeah, and this
Speaker 1: I mean it might as well.
Speaker 2: Like I mean it happened in northwest Arkansas on public land,
Speaker 2: twelve year old kid. Like we have the full video, like,
Speaker 2: take the camera off the tree and then the thing
Speaker 2: continues to play, like take video in the truck on
Speaker 2: the way home, takes it in his house, sets it
Speaker 2: on a counter case outward and basically we get videos
Speaker 2: of this.
Speaker 3: Family for.
Speaker 1: Until the camera ran out.
Speaker 3: Of battery, No kidding.
Speaker 2: I called the sheriff the first day, and I wasn't
Speaker 2: that worried about the trail camera. I wasn't even and
Speaker 2: he was like, well, do you want to press charges
Speaker 2: on these people? And I was like, well, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: probably not. I mean, I didn't want to make a
Speaker 2: big deal about it. I said, I do want y'all
Speaker 2: to know that my trail camera that's in their house
Speaker 2: taking videos of their families has nothing to do with me.
Speaker 1: They stole my trail camera.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're not spying on them for some reason. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And what's a man to do in that situation? Jordan?
Speaker 3: What would you do?
Speaker 1: What would you have done?
Speaker 2: I tried to shut off the camera, but I couldn't
Speaker 2: figure out how to actually shut the camera down anyway.
Speaker 1: What would you do?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I mean, that's obviously, you know, not y'all's fault at all.
Speaker 4: And I agree with you. It's not so much like
Speaker 4: the camera's not so important. If I was, you know,
Speaker 4: that kid's parent, I would want to know, Hey, this
Speaker 4: is what your kid's doing. But also I think a
Speaker 4: lot of times stuff like that can sometimes be just
Speaker 4: the tip of the iceberg, right right, And so it's
Speaker 4: good to inform law enforcement.
Speaker 3: You don't want to press charges, you don't want.
Speaker 4: To get these people in trouble for that specific thing,
Speaker 4: but you want to say, hey, because maybe maybe someone
Speaker 4: in that household is being investigated for something else and
Speaker 4: law enforcement is going to know that, and so that's
Speaker 4: going to be something that you know they're going to
Speaker 4: want to be in the loop on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think you did the right thing.
Speaker 2: Well, it's also hard to imagine how the parents couldn't
Speaker 2: have been in on it, because this kid went from
Speaker 2: hunting right into a vehicle that was driven home and
Speaker 2: he's got the camera just like bouncing around in the truck.
Speaker 4: And yeah, I mean that's why I say, I think,
Speaker 4: you know, maybe the adults in the house, maybe law
Speaker 4: enforcement will want to know what's going on here, right.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I could imagine that they're not seeing the
Speaker 5: camera the way it's set up, it's got to be
Speaker 5: just like right out in the open.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just feel like there's a real I still
Speaker 2: am kind of giving them the benefit of the doubt
Speaker 2: in a way, because I almost I mean, it would
Speaker 2: be crazy for someone who these people appeared to be.
Speaker 2: I mean, they had camouflage, they had Hunter's orange, they
Speaker 2: had guns, like they kind of knew what they were doing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but they were crazy enough to not know that that
Speaker 2: camera was on and taking video right and didn't turn
Speaker 2: it off. So that's step number one that they don't
Speaker 2: really know what's going on. Yeah, but I mean, would
Speaker 2: it be possible in twenty twenty five that some kid
Speaker 2: could have been like, oh, they left their trail camera
Speaker 2: out here. I guess they're not coming back for it.
Speaker 2: Let's get it.
Speaker 4: Do you did you have your like contact info or
Speaker 4: anything on the camera.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure we might have, yeah.
Speaker 4: Because in that scenario they knew yeah, right, but maybe
Speaker 4: I mean yeah, maybe it was more innocent and this
Speaker 4: is just like you know, they thought it was theirs
Speaker 4: for the taking.
Speaker 2: Maybe well yeah, yeah, it's uh, it was a it
Speaker 2: was a unnerving I mean I was unnerved because I
Speaker 2: didn't wanna. I mean, I don't know, when somebody steals
Speaker 2: something from you, you feel like, yeah, they should be
Speaker 2: held accountable.
Speaker 4: Was it what I mean, what did you see when
Speaker 4: you like it set up on a counter? Is it
Speaker 4: like the kitchen or.
Speaker 2: I checked that multi app like way too much, you know,
Speaker 2: throughout the day. And my first clue was I started
Speaker 2: seeing the cab of a truck, right, and I just
Speaker 2: thought maybe Baird picked up a camera and moved it
Speaker 2: and didn't turn it off, you know. And then I
Speaker 2: started seeing faces of people I didn't know, and it
Speaker 2: was it was taking videos. Yeah, and I didn't request
Speaker 2: like ninety percent of the videos. I never like requested
Speaker 2: the video because on the multi app, you see this
Speaker 2: like thumbnail and you request the video and then it
Speaker 2: sends it to you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and so.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Anyway, so if if if this is you, if you're
Speaker 2: out there listening and you've taken our trail camera, I
Speaker 2: will not humiliate you publicly. If you'd like to contact me.
Speaker 2: Several people said, well, Klay put this video on online,
Speaker 2: and I was like, there's no way I'm going to
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 2: Like out for blood, right, But a lot of people
Speaker 2: would have maybe in a different scenario than me.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I think it makes a big difference
Speaker 4: that it's a kid first, it does, that's.
Speaker 1: A right, videos of parents too, yeah, yeah, or who somebody.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know, I don't know. That's a tough one.
Speaker 5: I've I've had a number of things stolen off public
Speaker 5: land this year, really had a tree stand and then, Uh,
Speaker 5: the most frustrating one was I had a camera that
Speaker 5: I'd set out like way back in there all year
Speaker 5: and I went to go check it and someone had
Speaker 5: just taken the SD card, which is so disappointing. Yeah,
Speaker 5: because I wanted to see what was on there. Yeah,
Speaker 5: have a big buck on there.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: Well, they're like, hey, we can maybe get some intel.
Speaker 4: Would have been nice to return it, you know, right,
Speaker 4: look at it.
Speaker 3: Fine. But at least.
Speaker 2: One time, years ago, when I was not using cell
Speaker 2: cameras and I had I had cameras in bear boxes.
Speaker 2: They was in bear country, so I wasn't really trying
Speaker 2: to lock the cameras from people, but I was trying
Speaker 2: to keep them from bears chewing them up. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: so I I left them unlocked but still in a
Speaker 2: bare box, you know. And I wrote in a sharpie
Speaker 2: marker on the thing, my name, my cell phone number,
Speaker 2: and I said call me and I will share these
Speaker 2: images with you.
Speaker 3: Oh, there you find it. There you go.
Speaker 4: It's kind of like people who leave their car unlocked, right,
Speaker 4: it's like, don't break my window, just you know, if
Speaker 4: you want the car, just take it, right, you want
Speaker 4: the stuff inside, just take it, you know.
Speaker 3: Well idea.
Speaker 2: I felt like it was a reasonable thing that I did,
Speaker 2: and I never got a single call.
Speaker 1: I mean it was it was so far back.
Speaker 2: The way I justified it in my mind was that
Speaker 2: if there's somebody standing right here, I would I want
Speaker 2: to be their friend, kind of one of those deals
Speaker 2: like I want to know why you're back here because
Speaker 2: this is a dumb place to be, right and uh
Speaker 2: and but I never never had a call. Maybe I
Speaker 2: only got one picture in like a seven year span
Speaker 2: of another person, So somebody walked past that camera would
Speaker 2: have seen that, but they didn't. Didn't mess with a camera. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so anyway, trail cameras trail cameras.
Speaker 4: Well, speaking of blood trails and trail cameras, the last
Speaker 4: episode in this season, the detective the Hunter was killed
Speaker 4: out in the forest in Michigan, and the detective put
Speaker 4: trail cams looking at the place where the guy died
Speaker 4: because he thought maybe the person who killed him will
Speaker 4: come back. Oh and uh, this is kind of a
Speaker 4: long story, but sure enough, a guy comes back. Multiple days,
Speaker 4: they get photos of him looking down at the spot
Speaker 4: where this guy died, and then he also gets independently
Speaker 4: other tips coming in saying you should look at this guy.
Speaker 4: Turns out it's the same guy. I thought that was
Speaker 4: a smart use of trail cams.
Speaker 2: You know, you think he hid the trail camera though, yeah,
Speaker 2: he liked it really well, yeah.
Speaker 4: He hit it, so the guy didn't know there was
Speaker 4: a camera there. But he's walking past this, you know,
Speaker 4: the crime scene, like a week after it happened. Wow,
Speaker 4: And I was like, that's a that's really smart because
Speaker 4: you'd imagine, you know, if that happened, you'd go back
Speaker 4: right if whether it was an accident or on purpose,
Speaker 4: like you kind of have this fascination with that spot.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I won't give it away, but that guy who
Speaker 4: they saw on the trail cam ended up he had
Speaker 4: an alibi.
Speaker 3: And it's this kind of whole thing.
Speaker 2: But oh wow, yeah, well okay, I have a similar scenario,
Speaker 2: but not with a human. So in Arkansas a couple
Speaker 2: of months ago, well October the second, there was a
Speaker 2: bear that killed a man in Arkansas about two hours
Speaker 2: from here. Yeah, Game and Fish put up trail cameras
Speaker 2: at the at the spot and put up a bunch
Speaker 2: of traps and eight and basically, if a bear came
Speaker 2: back in that fit the description of the bear that
Speaker 2: we had pictures of, So that the guy that had
Speaker 2: been killed took pictures of a bear in his camp
Speaker 2: and bear Knwkom and I, by kind of happenstance were
Speaker 2: involved in some way with this. We were there when
Speaker 2: they found it out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And.
Speaker 2: So they set up so after that day they took
Speaker 2: the body and they set up trail cameras, sell cameras,
Speaker 2: and basically they said, if we get a picture of
Speaker 2: a bear that does not go into trap, the first
Speaker 2: chance was to put it in a trap catch it.
Speaker 2: But it was right during October when all the acrons
Speaker 2: were falling, and all of us that hunted bear over
Speaker 2: bait knew that probably the bear was not going to
Speaker 2: go into trap, and sure enough we were right three
Speaker 2: days later. So it's a Thursday afternoon when we went
Speaker 2: to the scene of where the guy was killed. And
Speaker 2: then that Sunday afternoon we got a call and I
Speaker 2: knew guys that had dogs that would tree bear, and
Speaker 2: so we got a call that they had a camera
Speaker 2: a bear on camera. This is kind of a follow
Speaker 2: up because we talked about this on Bear Grease Render,
Speaker 2: but we didn't tell the rest of the story, as
Speaker 2: Paul Harry would say, So we thought the bear that
Speaker 2: killed this guy is going to come back to where
Speaker 2: it happened.
Speaker 1: Well, shure it up.
Speaker 2: Three days later, a juvenile male shows up on the
Speaker 2: camera and gave him fish calls, and they're like, bam,
Speaker 2: it's here, bring the hounds. It didn't go on a trap,
Speaker 2: so we zoom over there and uh and basically I
Speaker 2: was just a part of it, and there were there
Speaker 2: were two or three local houndsmen turned loose dogs and
Speaker 2: tree this bear within an hour. I mean, it was
Speaker 2: just like that easy wow, and they shoot the bear.
Speaker 2: I get there right after the bear's been shot. I
Speaker 2: did talk about this. So we hauled the bear out
Speaker 2: in the body bag out of this big canaan and
Speaker 2: they sent it to the crime lab. And every one
Speaker 2: of us there that night I think would have bet
Speaker 2: our trucks.
Speaker 1: That it was the bear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just you know, the only bear that showed back
Speaker 2: up goes to the crime lab and it's not the bear.
Speaker 1: The wrong bear.
Speaker 2: Disappointing, So it's kind of like, well, I don't know
Speaker 2: the final don't call it for me, but your criminal
Speaker 2: sounds very similar back to the scene. Our criminal never
Speaker 2: did because one bear in thirty days, they kept trail
Speaker 2: cameras up and fresh bade out for thirty days at
Speaker 2: this place called Sam's Throne where this bear was, where
Speaker 2: this man was killed. Not a single other bear came
Speaker 2: in there. That was the only bear that came back.
Speaker 2: And it was not the bear, and it had a
Speaker 2: blonde muzzle.
Speaker 5: It was a small male like it looked exactly like
Speaker 5: the one in the picture.
Speaker 4: No kidding, Yeah it did. And they had a I know,
Speaker 4: like with I assume they did like DNA testing where
Speaker 4: they compared the saliven things. Yeah, and they had a
Speaker 4: high degree of confidence not the right bear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, really high degree of confidence because you know the
Speaker 2: body of the man had yeah right bear DNA all
Speaker 2: over it.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and.
Speaker 1: So it was a wrong bear.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, man, tell me about blood trails.
Speaker 2: So if if you're listening to Bear Greece, you've probably
Speaker 2: heard about blood trails before, but.
Speaker 1: Tell me just like the general premise of it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So it's a it's a true crime podcast about
Speaker 4: hunters and Anglers is kind of the elevator pitch for it.
Speaker 3: So there they're criminal cases.
Speaker 4: Sometimes a hunter is killed, sometimes the hunter is the perpetrator.
Speaker 4: There's a few stories where hunters go missing and it's
Speaker 4: not like you know, he he got lost or whatever.
Speaker 4: There's suspicious circumstances that surround the missing person. And so
Speaker 4: this is the first season. It's almost done as of
Speaker 4: this recording. There's eight episodes in this first season, but
Speaker 4: we're working on more. So if you like these first eight,
Speaker 4: there's gonna be more coming up in the next.
Speaker 2: Year that it'll be there'll be seasons with like blongs
Speaker 2: of episodes.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna release them by season. So,
Speaker 4: you know, I don't know exactly what the release schedule
Speaker 4: will look like, but we're thinking sometime in the spring
Speaker 4: we'll release another block of eight to ten and they're.
Speaker 1: Maybe two of those a year.
Speaker 3: Yep, yep. That's the hope. That's the cope.
Speaker 4: And the episodes are usually kind of standalone. Well, I
Speaker 4: think we'll do the occasional like two parter where it's
Speaker 4: you know, two episodes, but you know, each each episode
Speaker 4: is a different case.
Speaker 1: Sty hour long.
Speaker 3: Yeah, about an hour long. Some aer are a little more,
Speaker 3: some a little less.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so did you were you interested in this
Speaker 2: kind of stuff before because you're also a writer.
Speaker 1: At Meat Eater.
Speaker 2: Yeah, write a lot of just like hunting, fishing stuff,
Speaker 2: NEWSS related stuff.
Speaker 3: Yep, yep. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So I'm I'm the managing editor of the website, so
Speaker 4: I write a lot of the articles on the website.
Speaker 4: I also help Ryan Callahan write his podcast. Okay, so
Speaker 4: he's he does you know, I'm sure everyone knows Cal's
Speaker 4: Week in Review.
Speaker 3: It's a news podcast.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm always sort of in the weeds on
Speaker 4: the latest news, the latest stories coming out. And a
Speaker 4: lot of the stories we cover for both the website
Speaker 4: and for Cal's podcast are crime stories, and usually there
Speaker 4: it's wildlife crime, so it's poachers things like that. But
Speaker 4: you know, occasionally they'll be a hunter who dies and
Speaker 4: we'll cover that type of story as well. So, yeah,
Speaker 4: this is something I've been doing for you know, quite
Speaker 4: a few years now, you know, researching these stories, finding sources,
Speaker 4: trying to put the pieces together. And Blood Trails really
Speaker 4: started with this guy wrote in and he said my
Speaker 4: buddy was killed. He was a Turkey hunter and he
Speaker 4: was killed out in the woods. They never found out
Speaker 4: who did it, but I have some ideas on who
Speaker 4: did it, and that was obviously very interesting. So I
Speaker 4: call him up and he tells me this wild story
Speaker 4: of he did his own kind of investigation. He came
Speaker 4: up with his own suspects, but law enforcement, you know,
Speaker 4: for whatever reason, they never charged anyone.
Speaker 3: He you know, the person who did it was never found.
Speaker 4: And so I thought, this, this story is good enough,
Speaker 4: you know, for not just for an article on the website,
Speaker 4: but for a whole podcast, like a whole episode. And
Speaker 4: so we put out that podcast back in March of
Speaker 4: this year as a kind of a pilot episode, and
Speaker 4: people like that a lot, and so we decided, you
Speaker 4: know what, let's there's plenty of stories out there, right
Speaker 4: That's and that's a question I get is like, how
Speaker 4: many stories.
Speaker 3: Could there be?
Speaker 1: That was my next question.
Speaker 4: Yeah, criminal stories related to hunters, anglers, and we we
Speaker 4: we do expand it out a little bit to you know, hikers, campers,
Speaker 4: people who are using public land in some way. And
Speaker 4: there's there's tons, I mean there's tons just this yeah,
Speaker 4: just this last year, and this is another story we're
Speaker 4: looking into There are these two kids who were camping
Speaker 4: out in Arizona on some some public land that were
Speaker 4: found murdered and it was totally random. They couldn't figure
Speaker 4: out who did it. They just arrested a suspect just
Speaker 4: like a month ago. And so, you know, unfortunately, these
Speaker 4: stories are are fairly common. And you know, we're going
Speaker 4: back to the earliest story from this season is nineteen
Speaker 4: seventy five, so you know, if if you take that
Speaker 4: expanse of time, there's gonna be plenty of stories like this.
Speaker 6: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that really was gonna be by the story
Speaker 2: is you know, how common is this?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I mean it's it's you know, unfortunately common enough. And
Speaker 4: once these first episodes started to come out, we're getting
Speaker 4: tons of emails like, hey, you should cover this story,
Speaker 4: Hey cover that story. Even we're getting detectives, you know,
Speaker 4: who say, I have this cold case from the nineties,
Speaker 4: we haven't figured out who did it. I'd love to,
Speaker 4: you know, talk to you so you can kind of
Speaker 4: spread the word. And a lot of times with those
Speaker 4: cold cases, people are are more than happy to talk,
Speaker 4: you know, because they want to get the word out.
Speaker 3: They want to help R and I have I have
Speaker 3: heard back.
Speaker 4: I can't really provide a ton of detail right now,
Speaker 4: but I have heard back from a few of the
Speaker 4: people involved in episodes that have come out who have said,
Speaker 4: this is getting people talking where we think we're making
Speaker 4: some progress here just because of the you know, getting
Speaker 4: the word out and and a lot of times, you know,
Speaker 4: if if law enforcements talking to me, it probably means
Speaker 4: they're really what they really need our tips coming in
Speaker 4: from someone, someone who knows something, and so that's what
Speaker 4: they're relying on. And you know, I hope, I hope
Speaker 4: some of these episodes can generate some.
Speaker 1: Of ye helps solve the case.
Speaker 4: I would love that because I mean, one of the
Speaker 4: things that it's really important to me with with these
Speaker 4: episodes is I want to talk to the families of
Speaker 4: the victims, because I want to know about the victim, right.
Speaker 4: I don't want the victim to just be like, you know,
Speaker 4: it's not just like a puzzle to solve. This is
Speaker 4: a real person and they have a real family and
Speaker 4: it impacted them deeply. So I try whenever I can
Speaker 4: to talk to the families of the victims and so
Speaker 4: to have, you know, potentially this case be solved. Having
Speaker 4: spoken with them and then having told me, like how
Speaker 4: difficult it is, especially for these cold cases, how difficult
Speaker 4: it is to not know what happened.
Speaker 3: That would just, I mean, be so cool, so cool.
Speaker 2: I guess a lot of these true, like the big
Speaker 2: like Crime Junkie is one of the biggest podcasts in
Speaker 2: the world.
Speaker 3: Yeah, am I right?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's. I think I just saw Spotify's
Speaker 4: list for this year. I think it was four fourth
Speaker 4: on Spotify.
Speaker 2: So in that podcast has helped solve a lot of cases,
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 3: I think so, yeah, I've heard that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, I guess it would get a
Speaker 2: lot of people excited.
Speaker 1: It would.
Speaker 2: There's probably some criminals shaking in their boots.
Speaker 3: Sellers is on the case.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you better better watch it, man, you better
Speaker 1: watch it.
Speaker 4: I don't know about that, but you know it's it's
Speaker 4: it's fun to have that potentially that real world, real
Speaker 4: world impact.
Speaker 2: So, okay, this is this is what I wanted to
Speaker 2: talk to you about. When you're when you're dealing with families. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like now Bear Grease, we really was just happenstance. We
Speaker 2: just did our first murder, which kind of overlaps into
Speaker 2: your lane.
Speaker 1: Lake Pickle was like, Clay, why are you.
Speaker 2: Doing this to Jordan And I was like doing what
Speaker 2: And I was like, well, it really was just completely
Speaker 2: happenstance that we did. Uh we did a murder mystery
Speaker 2: in Bear Greasewitch. Great job by the way, Yeah, thank you,
Speaker 2: and it just kind of the story just kind of
Speaker 2: fell on my lap. But I'm I'm more common to
Speaker 2: us is doing like an outlaw podcast, which involves criminals
Speaker 2: or potential criminals, maybe guys that were never even caught.
Speaker 2: And I'm always like tiptoeing around and really conscious of
Speaker 2: people's families, like living Like if I'm talking about someone,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about their living family, and I feel like
Speaker 2: that would be pretty sensitive with what you're doing.
Speaker 1: I don't know, what, what do you think about? How
Speaker 1: do you how do you handle that?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I mean that's that's one of the most difficult things
Speaker 4: to navigate, right, is Like you want you want the
Speaker 4: family of a victim to talk to you, in part
Speaker 4: selfishly because it's going to make the episode so much
Speaker 4: more you know, interesting for the audience, right, but you
Speaker 4: also have to recognize, like you're asking them to relive
Speaker 4: what's probably the worst thing that's ever happened to them, right,
Speaker 4: Like I I've talked to I talked to a guy
Speaker 4: who found his father dead in the woods, and you know,
Speaker 4: I had I had to ask him what was that?
Speaker 3: Like, like, tell me what happened?
Speaker 4: And in doing that, I'm asking him to relive this
Speaker 4: horrible thing, right that he probably tries not to think about, right,
Speaker 4: and I'm asking him try to think about it.
Speaker 3: So I never take that for granted.
Speaker 4: They do it usually because they're they're wanting the case
Speaker 4: to be solved, and they recognize that by talking to me,
Speaker 4: by answering my questions that could help the case be solved.
Speaker 4: When it gets more difficult from my perspective, is when
Speaker 4: the case is closed. Because we don't just cover cold
Speaker 4: cases on this podcast, some of the cases have been
Speaker 4: officially closed.
Speaker 3: I would say, there's there are still questions.
Speaker 4: With each story that we cover, there's still unanswered questions,
Speaker 4: but some of the cases have been officially closed, and
Speaker 4: so the family feels like, you know, I don't I
Speaker 4: don't want to talk about this.
Speaker 3: I want to move on. And you know what.
Speaker 4: I hope is that they'll still talk to me, because,
Speaker 4: like I said, I want the victim to be like
Speaker 4: a fully fleshed out human. And the best person to
Speaker 4: make that happen is the family, because they're the ones
Speaker 4: who can tell me, you know what, what.
Speaker 3: Was this caser?
Speaker 1: I had some people not want to talk to you.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh yeah?
Speaker 1: Does it? Does it shut the story down?
Speaker 3: There was?
Speaker 4: There have been a couple where I've wanted to cover
Speaker 4: and just have hit brick wall after brickwall. Sometimes it's
Speaker 4: law enforcement, sometimes it's families. You know, a lot of
Speaker 4: times people just don't respond. They don't they don't even
Speaker 4: say like, I don't want to talk about this.
Speaker 1: I just just can't get any traction there.
Speaker 4: There have been a couple where someone has responded and
Speaker 4: we go back and forth a bit and then they decide, actually,
Speaker 4: I don't want to do this, yeah, for for whatever reason.
Speaker 4: Sometimes it's do you feel a little bit.
Speaker 2: A little bit like I don't want to use the
Speaker 2: word icky, but that's the way.
Speaker 3: That's probably the best word.
Speaker 2: When you're kind of like digging in somebody and they go, hey, no.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because I have before well and and this is
Speaker 4: this is the reputation that especially true crime podcasts get
Speaker 4: right where kind of capitalizing on people's grief. Right, we're
Speaker 4: taking advantage of this horrible thing that happened to people,
Speaker 4: and I'm I'm very sensitive to that, which is why
Speaker 4: I always want to be as respectful as possible to
Speaker 4: everyone involved, whether that's the families of the victims, but
Speaker 4: also the families of the perpetrators of the people who
Speaker 4: have done this horrible thing. Their families, as long as
Speaker 4: they weren't complicit, their families are are also victims in
Speaker 4: a sense, yes, And so you know, it's it's a
Speaker 4: tricky thing to navigate. I the after an episode comes out.
Speaker 4: The thing I don't read comments, I don't I don't
Speaker 4: do that. But the thing that I'm that worries me
Speaker 4: the most is that text from the family member they've
Speaker 4: listened to the episode so far, everything's it's all been positive.
Speaker 4: I've just gotten this is great, we really appreciate it,
Speaker 4: thanks so much, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but that's what really that's what would really bother me,
Speaker 4: I think is if a family member texted me and said,
Speaker 4: you messed up. You didn't, you know, describe this correctly,
Speaker 4: you made it worse. Anything like that, that would you know,
Speaker 4: that would really.
Speaker 2: Bother me, man, I completely identify with what you're saying.
Speaker 2: I told someone just this last week, well with this
Speaker 2: Bucky Garrison story. In this case, I was I wasn't
Speaker 2: able to contact any of the family on this one.
Speaker 2: I just it just like every time I went that way,
Speaker 2: it just kind of got shut down. And it wasn't
Speaker 2: by the family, It just I couldn't find them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's tough, and yeah, but.
Speaker 2: I was very interested in Oklahoma Department Wildlife, like their
Speaker 2: perspective on it, and so I was kind of like
Speaker 2: waiting for that text message of like, hey, thanks, you know,
Speaker 2: so I understand.
Speaker 1: I understand that completely, and I wasn't going to say
Speaker 1: the victims.
Speaker 2: It's really easy to talk about a bad guy. But really,
Speaker 2: if you understand humans, you understand that a lot of
Speaker 2: bad guys come from families that aren't all bad guys,
Speaker 2: you know. And so you're kind of bringing up something
Speaker 2: from the past happened a long time ago, that's in
Speaker 2: this family's rear view mirror. They're probably trying to get
Speaker 2: away from it exactly. And that's one that's harder. It's
Speaker 2: easier to justify doing a story because this person was
Speaker 2: the bad guy and in a sense, you know, you
Speaker 2: kind of feel justified and like, well, they should have
Speaker 2: never done this to begin with, so we can tell
Speaker 2: this story again. But I have felt like in some
Speaker 2: of the Outlaw stuff we've done, been very conscious of
Speaker 2: the Outlaws family, yep, you know, just because it's like
Speaker 2: they wanted to forget.
Speaker 4: Yeah, their friends or family are going to listen to
Speaker 4: the podcast, you know, and some of them maybe they
Speaker 4: don't they didn't know, and they're gonna text them say, hey,
Speaker 4: I didn't know. You know, your so and so was
Speaker 4: a such and such and it's gonna it's gonna cause problems.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Like the the one episode that came out, well it's
Speaker 4: coming out this week as of this recording, but it's
Speaker 4: it's about a guy, a hunter in Georgia who was
Speaker 4: found stabbed eighteen times and they ruled it a suicide
Speaker 4: and there's all kinds of reasons for that in the
Speaker 4: podcast to you can you can listen to that. But
Speaker 4: his hunting buddy was you know, suspect number one, right,
Speaker 4: because they traveled somewhere else to hunt. So these two
Speaker 4: guys were the only two that knew each other. It
Speaker 4: was kind of in this hard to get to back place.
Speaker 4: It was dark, it was after dark, and so this
Speaker 4: this guy's hunting buddy was suspect number one. And this
Speaker 4: is one where you know, we went back and forth
Speaker 4: for a while and he seemed willing to talk about it.
Speaker 4: But then I think the more he thought about it,
Speaker 4: he told me he's just like I. As I've been
Speaker 4: thinking about it, it's brought back so many horrible memories
Speaker 4: that I just don't want to I don't want to
Speaker 4: talk about it, you know, I want to put it
Speaker 4: in my rearview mirror.
Speaker 3: I don't want to think about it anymore.
Speaker 4: And so that you know that that's kind of difficult
Speaker 4: for me as someone who is putting out this story,
Speaker 4: who you know, people are going to start talking.
Speaker 3: About this guy again.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't want that to blow back on him
Speaker 4: because he didn't do it. It's it's pretty clear that
Speaker 4: he didn't do it, and so you know. But but again,
Speaker 4: I think there's a there's still a public interest in
Speaker 4: people knowing about these stories. But they're not without you know,
Speaker 4: it's not without some qualms on my part at.
Speaker 2: Times, Barry have any questions for him? You be thinking
Speaker 2: about it, I've got another you be thinking you're up next,
Speaker 2: what's the typical scenario?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: Uh, like, if with all that you've done, and you know,
Speaker 2: five years from now, after you've done you know, seventy
Speaker 2: of these, maybe you would have a better sense. But like,
Speaker 2: what happens with hunters and anglers? Are they are they
Speaker 2: usually or is there any trend? Are they usually killed
Speaker 2: by a stranger? Are they usually killed by their buddy?
Speaker 2: Did they usually die on accident? What's the trend?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 4: I mean, I think accident is going to be the
Speaker 4: number one thing. That's not We're not really going to
Speaker 4: cover unless there's some other kind of circumstance involved. A
Speaker 4: lot of those though, I will say the we covered
Speaker 4: a story of a hunter named Aaron Hedges who went
Speaker 4: hunting with two of his buddies out in Montana, and
Speaker 4: it appears like that was probably an accident. But I
Speaker 4: say probably because there's still some kind of questions. But
Speaker 4: I would say accident has to be. It's got to
Speaker 4: be number one, right, like whether the gun or whatever.
Speaker 4: I think there are a lot where I don't know
Speaker 4: about a lot, but but it seems to come up
Speaker 4: where it's an accidental shooting. Right, It's not a malicious
Speaker 4: like murder, but the person who pulled the trigger doesn't
Speaker 4: runs away, doesn't come forward, right, So that's kind of
Speaker 4: a crime on top of a crime. He doesn't mean
Speaker 4: to kill it, like the one the first when you
Speaker 4: go back in March with the turkey hunter that got
Speaker 4: shot right at daylight and they just never knew who
Speaker 4: did it right, right, And that's what you know, the
Speaker 4: family thinks, probably an accident. I would imagine that's law
Speaker 4: enforcement's theory that they didn't talk to me. So I
Speaker 4: think that's probably the most common thing. Uh, you know,
Speaker 4: I think I'm sure there are cases where it's malicious
Speaker 4: and it's a hunting buddy, I think not super often.
Speaker 4: I think it's you know a lot of times it's
Speaker 4: that accidental shooting that turns into something more because they
Speaker 4: don't come forward, they don't confess, they don't they run away.
Speaker 2: When was that original it's the one you ran back
Speaker 2: in March, the first episode. Yeah, what was the time
Speaker 2: frame that guy got killed?
Speaker 3: I want to say it was two thousand and four
Speaker 3: to early two thousand.
Speaker 2: So yeah, very likely the person that shot that guy
Speaker 2: still love it's possible, yeah, I mean yeah, assuming that Yeah, yep.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's very possible they're still alive.
Speaker 1: That's that's and it's.
Speaker 4: I you know, I can't imagine living with that because
Speaker 4: and that was the other thing is that there is
Speaker 4: some evidence that the person walked up to the body
Speaker 4: of the victim. So it's not like they did it
Speaker 4: and just didn't know and have been living their life,
Speaker 4: you know, not knowing. I can't imagine knowing that and
Speaker 4: just living living your life.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Wow, Yeah, that that's what's strange about these some of
Speaker 2: these stories is to think that the person that did
Speaker 2: it is still just out there.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Well, and I mean that was really the big one
Speaker 4: of the big questions with the Paul Hutchinson case episode
Speaker 4: two and three of this year.
Speaker 3: A guy.
Speaker 4: He killed a fifteen year old girl up in Montana
Speaker 4: around the Bosman area. He raped her, he killed her,
Speaker 4: and then just went on and lived a life in
Speaker 4: that area. He became a BLM biologist. He had a
Speaker 4: wife and two kids just living in that same area.
Speaker 4: And he was eventually found out and right after law
Speaker 4: enforcement interviewed him the first time, he went and committed suicide,
Speaker 4: which for a lot of people is like the greatest
Speaker 4: there was DNA evidence, but the greatest evidence of his
Speaker 4: guilt is that, right, And so obviously you know this
Speaker 4: is something he's lived with for twenty twenty years, right,
Speaker 4: twenty thirty years, and the moment he's like there's any
Speaker 4: kind of accountability, he's.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, how did you get the video for that?
Speaker 2: Because in this episode, and I think I texted you
Speaker 2: when I watched it, I was on like pins and needles.
Speaker 2: Much of the episode is an actual interview that the police.
Speaker 1: Did with this guy.
Speaker 2: Yep, Yeah, how did you legally get access to that?
Speaker 4: So that was and I have to kind of give
Speaker 4: credit where credit is due. Forty eight hours covered this story, okay,
Speaker 4: and they got that video. They had it in that episode,
Speaker 4: So that's how I knew like it was available in
Speaker 4: some way.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Now, it still took me six months because it required
Speaker 4: me to submit a request, but then that request had
Speaker 4: to go before a judge.
Speaker 3: Who then had to approve it. Really mm hmmm.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that wasn't even the hard thing to get,
Speaker 4: but yeah, that had to go before a judge, so
Speaker 4: I was kind of just in line waiting.
Speaker 3: The clerk who helped me was very nice.
Speaker 4: She always answered my emails because I was constantly like, hey,
Speaker 4: when is this you know, but yeah, it was just waiting.
Speaker 4: So so the judge approved it, signed off on it,
Speaker 4: the clerk, you know, I asked for a few other
Speaker 4: things alongside with that, put it all together and mailed
Speaker 4: it to me. I got a flash drive in the
Speaker 4: mail with the video on it. Yeah, but yeah, that's
Speaker 4: actually that's another kind of big priority for me with
Speaker 4: with these episodes is getting stuff like that, and we
Speaker 4: actually have law enforcement interviews for that episode, and then
Speaker 4: these final three episodes all feature in some way law
Speaker 4: enforcement interviews that we got through public records requests.
Speaker 2: Public records request so that was evidence that was used
Speaker 2: in the court of law.
Speaker 3: It would have been if he did true, yeah, he
Speaker 3: was gone.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but because the case is closed, that we have
Speaker 4: access to that, so you have to it. Yeah, So
Speaker 4: that's one one kind of benefit. It's kind of like
Speaker 4: the way I think of it is if it's an
Speaker 4: open case, if it's a cold case, you can a
Speaker 4: lot of times get like family and friends will talk
Speaker 4: to you and tell you what happens. Sometimes law enforcement will,
Speaker 4: but you don't have access to any of the documents,
Speaker 4: any videos, any audio recordings because the case is still open,
Speaker 4: and so you can't submit a record's request for a
Speaker 4: case that's open because they can't share it when the
Speaker 4: case is closed. Family oftentimes, you know, like we said,
Speaker 4: doesn't want to talk. But you can get access to
Speaker 4: all the case file, you know, everything that law enforcement
Speaker 4: had a lot of times, if you're patient, you can
Speaker 4: you can get it.
Speaker 3: Man.
Speaker 1: That's that's some strong journalism.
Speaker 3: Well it's been a learning process. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't
Speaker 3: realize how.
Speaker 4: Time consuming it was going to be because you know,
Speaker 4: a lot of times these public records clerks, it's like
Speaker 4: get in line, you know, and you're in the back
Speaker 4: of the line, and so you just have to wait.
Speaker 4: In Park County, Montana, I actually had to open I
Speaker 4: don't know if it's technically a lawsuit, but I had
Speaker 4: to like pay money to open a case with the
Speaker 4: court in order to get some incident reports from that
Speaker 4: Aaron Hedges case. And so you know, it's just a
Speaker 4: and the other thing is a different process for each state.
Speaker 4: Some states are very quick, some states are very slow.
Speaker 4: So wow, wild, Yeah, it's been what's your question? I
Speaker 4: got two questions. They're connected.
Speaker 5: How many of the of your you've done eight episodes
Speaker 5: so far, how many of them have been like last
Speaker 5: ten years.
Speaker 4: Let's see, I think all of them have been. So
Speaker 4: there are two that are one from one is from
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy five and the other is from nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 3: All of the rest of them.
Speaker 4: Have been within the last ten to twenty years, I
Speaker 4: would say, Okay, so most of them are more recent.
Speaker 4: The older ones, those have their own challenges, right, because
Speaker 4: sometimes people have died who like the investigators, you know,
Speaker 4: some of the family, and so that can be challenging
Speaker 4: in and of itself. But yeah, most of them I
Speaker 4: think are more recent.
Speaker 5: So as you're like looking, you know, like trying to
Speaker 5: find cases, have you noticed any sort of like increase
Speaker 5: in events like this happening and the like recently, Because
Speaker 5: I know, like around here this summer, two people got
Speaker 5: killed in like a state park. Yeah, yeah, that's right,
Speaker 5: And that was just like unfathomable.
Speaker 3: Yeah to me, that was the story to happen.
Speaker 5: Like whenever that happened, we were actually on our way
Speaker 5: to the state park. Really yeah, my uncle called me
Speaker 5: and said turn around and and and there's been a
Speaker 5: few other events like that recently that like I don't know,
Speaker 5: maybe I've just never been paying attention, but it has
Speaker 5: seemed like stuff like this has been happening more.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know, and that's a great question. I
Speaker 4: don't know that I've noticed a particular like over time increase.
Speaker 4: But it makes sense that you know, as I guess
Speaker 4: this depends on where you live in the area of
Speaker 4: the country you live in, but you know, some areas
Speaker 4: you're seeing a lot more people out in the woods,
Speaker 4: and so it would make sense if there's more people
Speaker 4: out there, more opportunities for stuff to happen, and so
Speaker 4: in that sense, it's probably somewhat of a numbers game.
Speaker 4: But like you know, people are people, like people have
Speaker 4: been doing horrible things to each other for since people
Speaker 4: have been around, and so I don't think there would
Speaker 4: necessarily be an uptick for like any other reason than
Speaker 4: just more people out there in some areas.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean you think about the population of
Speaker 2: the US is now like three hundred and thirty plus million, yep.
Speaker 2: And I mean even back in the nineteen eighties, I
Speaker 2: mean it was like two hundred and fifty million or
Speaker 2: two hundred and four so I mean like one hundred million,
Speaker 2: almost one hundred million more people in America since like
Speaker 2: I was born, And I mean that's that's just a
Speaker 2: lot of a lot of potential conflict. Yeah, so I
Speaker 2: would it feels like our murder maybe not murder per capita,
Speaker 2: but there's more murders than there would have been.
Speaker 3: I would imagine. Yep.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so, and more people.
Speaker 2: More people are using, recreating on public lands and doing everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, my dad always used to tell me when
Speaker 2: I was a little kid, hunting by myself or he
Speaker 2: would drop me off and I would be scared of
Speaker 2: the dark.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he would always be.
Speaker 2: Son, there's nothing out here to be scared of, which
Speaker 2: you should be afraid.
Speaker 3: Of as people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I like for a while I kicked
Speaker 4: around a kind of a tagline for blood Trails that
Speaker 4: was something along those lines. Yeah, it's like the people
Speaker 4: are the most dangerous whatever.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Well, I think I think that's a realistic idea that
Speaker 2: most people have when they're in the woods. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: most people aren't afraid of I mean unless you're in
Speaker 2: like a hide did and see grizzly area or something.
Speaker 2: That's really about the only thing that you should legitimately
Speaker 2: be really cautious of. I would say almost in all
Speaker 2: of North America. I mean, other than rattlesnakes and stuff.
Speaker 2: But people, Yeah, people would be what you would.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: When I'm out in the woods, like you know, camping
Speaker 5: by myself, it's usually usually what I'm worried about. Like
Speaker 5: when I hear something walking out there, I'm usually not
Speaker 5: too worried about it being like a bear or something.
Speaker 5: It's usually the thought that's running through my mind is like,
Speaker 5: is that a person?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Well so bear grease.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: We did, I think our first murder mystery this week
Speaker 2: on this this story titled Unusual that the Unusual death
Speaker 2: of Melvin Bucky Garrison, and it was pretty it was interesting,
Speaker 2: and I kind of told how it happened. But I
Speaker 2: was in Okema, Oklahoma actually with eating lunch with Evan
Speaker 2: Felker of the Turnpike Troubadors and his good buddy Andrew Stubbs.
Speaker 1: Who was on the episode in the cold open, and.
Speaker 2: We're setting around the Shonees Buffet there in Okema, which
Speaker 2: if he hadn't been there, you should check it out.
Speaker 2: Pretty classy place to get the lowdown, and I believe
Speaker 2: Andrew Stubbs was eating his dessert of peaches and cottage
Speaker 2: cheese when he said to me, we're talking about some
Speaker 2: bear grease outlaw stories. And he was like, now, I
Speaker 2: heard about an old outlaw over here that killed the
Speaker 2: game warden.
Speaker 1: That was just what he said. And I was like,
Speaker 1: what do you mean?
Speaker 2: And he begins to tell me the story that he
Speaker 2: had heard his whole life about melon Bucky Garrison. And
Speaker 2: I was intrigued by the story, and immediately that very
Speaker 2: day contacted the captain of the First Division of Wildlife
Speaker 2: and Oklahoma, this guy named Hank Jinx, and I said,
Speaker 2: does the name Bucky Garrison mean anything to you? And
Speaker 2: he was like, oh yeah, he knew it immediately and
Speaker 2: had told me, Hey, Clay, I actually was talking about
Speaker 2: Bucky Garrison, like very recently. And that's kind of how
Speaker 2: it all That's kind of how it all started. And
Speaker 2: so we set up and this is one of these
Speaker 2: stories that happened so long ago it was hard to find.
Speaker 2: It was almost it was difficult to do it because
Speaker 2: most of the people that were actually involved.
Speaker 3: In it are not around anymore.
Speaker 2: But it was also a unique story for me because
Speaker 2: a little bit touchy because the suspect, yep is to
Speaker 2: the court of law, is completely innocent, and so so
Speaker 2: much of the story was about this guy that they
Speaker 2: think did it, and that's kind of tricky too.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Well, I wanted to ask you, because this is something
Speaker 4: I think a lot about, is what what was the
Speaker 4: thought process behind deciding to not say his name in
Speaker 4: the episode.
Speaker 1: The God's family still lives right there?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and it just is hearsay. I mean,
Speaker 2: like I kept, I kept like searching for concrete evidence
Speaker 2: that this guy had done it, and there's just none
Speaker 2: other than everybody over there says that they heard this
Speaker 2: guy second hand it basically admit to it.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, you referenced that kind of towards the end,
Speaker 4: that he admitted to it.
Speaker 2: Well, but I mean, he I don't know if he
Speaker 2: did or not. Right, So you're Jordan, you're taking words
Speaker 2: out of my mouth. I didn't say he admitted it.
Speaker 2: I said I was told by people through the grape
Speaker 2: vine that had believed that he admitted it.
Speaker 1: But I just feel I just have enough.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's it's ill faded hope, but I just feel
Speaker 2: like if he had actually admitted it that he would
Speaker 2: have they would have got him.
Speaker 1: I mean they you know.
Speaker 4: It depends on the because the one of the episodes
Speaker 4: in this season is a hunter who went missing and
Speaker 4: the game Wardens is up in Maine. Uh. The game
Speaker 4: wardens basically tracked down the two guys who they thought
Speaker 4: did it, and they just couldn't quite get enough evidence
Speaker 4: to put them away. They they basically kidnapped him. He
Speaker 4: was he shot a deer, They stole his deer, killed him,
Speaker 4: and then you know, left his body somewhere. And one
Speaker 4: of the guys allegedly told basically a drinking buddy that
Speaker 4: he'd done it, and he explained everything, and this guy
Speaker 4: went to the police. The problem was the police were like,
Speaker 4: this guy is not a credible person, right, So we
Speaker 4: could try to put this guy on the stand and
Speaker 4: say and he could say, yeah, you know, he told
Speaker 4: me he did it. Here's what he said. But no,
Speaker 4: you know, defense is gonna like tear him apart. So
Speaker 4: they're like, we need a more credible person. So I
Speaker 4: don't know who this guy supposedly told in the Bucky
Speaker 4: Garrison story, but it could have been just someone who
Speaker 4: you know, no one would take seriously and that could
Speaker 4: have been the problem.
Speaker 2: Well, bear you listened to it, what was your general impression?
Speaker 1: Okay, story, what stood out to you it was?
Speaker 3: What was what do you think? Well?
Speaker 1: I think it was pretty.
Speaker 3: Well Okay.
Speaker 5: I think that the number of people that like new
Speaker 5: both you know, the perpetrator and the and Bucky, I
Speaker 5: think that speaks a lot to it. Like I feel
Speaker 5: like there's a lot of power in just like the
Speaker 5: human gut, you know, like people just like knowing, knowing
Speaker 5: if something has happened or not, and like kind of
Speaker 5: connecting dots that you know, maybe necessarily like yeah, logical.
Speaker 5: I think there's a lot of power in that. But
Speaker 5: it is really hard to say because I also think
Speaker 5: a lot of times like as as like the group
Speaker 5: starts to believe it, more and more people start to
Speaker 5: believe it, yes, and then eventually it just becomes fact. Yeah,
Speaker 5: And you know, like it's it's hard in this situation
Speaker 5: to really determine and like what side of that the
Speaker 5: people are on, Like did did the people does everyone
Speaker 5: who believes it? Do they just believe it because you know,
Speaker 5: they were told that or do they believe it because
Speaker 5: they actually knew knew the situation and everything around it,
Speaker 5: and can kind of put two and two together.
Speaker 6: So it's it's I'm kind of conflicted. I really can't.
Speaker 6: I can't. I can't say I can't really.
Speaker 2: Well, if you had to today, if you were the
Speaker 2: decider and you we had to go off what you
Speaker 2: thought from the amount of information you have, did the
Speaker 2: suspect do it?
Speaker 3: Or did Bucky de a natural death?
Speaker 5: I don't think I would say I don't think that
Speaker 5: he died a natural death.
Speaker 1: But what was what was the His partner's name was Bullet,
Speaker 1: Bullet Burns.
Speaker 3: Great, yeah, great.
Speaker 1: Great name.
Speaker 3: Bullet did it? No? No, no, but Bullet said, it's
Speaker 3: a great name.
Speaker 2: By the way, Bullet and Bucky, Ye write me a ticket, guys.
Speaker 1: I mean, I just want to be around y'all for.
Speaker 3: A little while.
Speaker 5: But Bullet his his theory was that like two people
Speaker 5: did it in a boat?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Was it?
Speaker 1: I couldn't.
Speaker 5: I wasn't quite tracking if he thought that the what
Speaker 5: everyone else the guy that everyone else thought, okay, he did, okay, Okay,
Speaker 5: Well I would I would, I would have to.
Speaker 1: Say that I would.
Speaker 3: I would probably believe.
Speaker 1: That you believe what Bullet thought.
Speaker 5: Yeah, just because like the waiters being stripped off and
Speaker 5: the bullet, like the actual bullet one shot and then
Speaker 5: the shotgun being gone. I mean it's just like there's
Speaker 5: no way, I mean, like, how else could that have happened?
Speaker 3: The waiters thing is very weird. Were they like chest waiters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it just would have been there was
Speaker 2: no detail. Again, we don't have the case file. The
Speaker 2: case file's gone, but you just assume it would have
Speaker 2: been a really primitive pair of waiters from the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 3: And then so so bullets.
Speaker 4: Theory was that he was kind of dragged along by
Speaker 4: a boat yep, and that's how the waiters got stripped off. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean I was trying to figure out how could
Speaker 4: that have possibly happened? That's the I mean, that's as
Speaker 4: good a theory as I couldn't come up with anything.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, I don't know how else.
Speaker 2: I thought maybe some waterfowl guys might might give gives
Speaker 2: just like a scenario. And I actually saw one comment
Speaker 2: today on social media that said he thinks it's possible
Speaker 2: that he got water in his waiters and was just
Speaker 2: trying to take him off.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, it's a good like you would you would just.
Speaker 2: Be trying to shed yourself of him. Yep, Hey Dad,
Speaker 2: how you drowned doing that? And you know water that
Speaker 2: deep and you're twenty seven years old and capable and strong. Yeap,
Speaker 2: It doesn't make sense. But his whole point was I
Speaker 2: think he was trying to take.
Speaker 1: His waiters off.
Speaker 2: But it's still it doesn't make sense of why you would, Yeah,
Speaker 2: why you would? Well, what do you I mean, Jordan,
Speaker 2: what kind of given the same scenario, Yeah, what do
Speaker 2: you think?
Speaker 4: I I just don't think there's enough that I know
Speaker 4: to know, like these details from how they found him,
Speaker 4: It's really hard to come up with a scenario that
Speaker 4: accounts for all these details, like whether he was killed
Speaker 4: by someone else or whether it was an accident. It's
Speaker 4: harder to come up with a scenario if it was
Speaker 4: an accident.
Speaker 3: Is there's the dirt under his nails? How that happen?
Speaker 3: There's the why did he shoot one shot from his derringer? Right?
Speaker 4: So it seems to me, and so I definitely agree
Speaker 4: with Bear that like something happened, probably not an accident,
Speaker 4: but I don't know why without any kind of other details.
Speaker 3: Like, I mean, one thing I was.
Speaker 4: Thinking, was I assume they looked at this the suspects alibi,
Speaker 4: like did you have an alibi? Did you have anyone
Speaker 4: else who could vouch for his whereabouts? And we just
Speaker 4: don't know that.
Speaker 3: Ye, And that's like a really basic kind of that's
Speaker 3: the very first thing you look.
Speaker 4: Another thing I thought was I think you said to
Speaker 4: get out there. It was like one road basically, So
Speaker 4: were there other tire marks or was it just so
Speaker 4: was it used so much that wouldn't have been an
Speaker 4: issue or like not something you could figure out. So
Speaker 4: just stuff like that. There's so much that I just
Speaker 4: you know, it's impossible to say.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And that's that's where this as a as a story
Speaker 2: was you know, weak in a way because we just
Speaker 2: didn't have all the data.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: When I first started getting into the story, and what
Speaker 2: became most interesting to me was how confident everyone was
Speaker 2: in the story.
Speaker 3: I mean, ed.
Speaker 2: Rodebush and now I've got to he's a competent man,
Speaker 2: like had a really good career with the game and
Speaker 2: fish and it was like a legitimate guy and you
Speaker 2: know here he came ten years later worked with Bullet
Speaker 2: Burns for a long period of time, and Bullet would
Speaker 2: have been first hand, you know, within arm's reach of
Speaker 2: this deal, and bullet Burns was completely convinced of who
Speaker 2: did it and how it happened. And I mean, you
Speaker 2: get the sense that bullet Burns.
Speaker 3: Was a pretty legit guy.
Speaker 1: So you kind of just have to go, man.
Speaker 2: They going back to what Bear said, there must have
Speaker 2: been more than what we had, than the evidence that we.
Speaker 4: Have, you would think, Because another thing I thought is like,
Speaker 4: were there rumors that this guy killed anyone else? That's
Speaker 4: another question I had because usually it's you know, if
Speaker 4: you do something like that, get away with it, like
Speaker 4: it's either not the first time or it's not the
Speaker 4: last time. But another thing is is the gentleman you
Speaker 4: interviewed who was Bullet's partner, said, I mean he stopped
Speaker 4: this guy thirty.
Speaker 3: Times over the course of his career.
Speaker 4: Yes, and according to his theory, that's what Bucky was doing.
Speaker 3: He was stopping him. It was a wildlife enforcement thing.
Speaker 4: So why why would this guy kill a game warden
Speaker 4: because he was caught poaching when he'd been caught poaching before,
Speaker 4: he was caught poaching after. It just doesn't seem like
Speaker 4: a response that's like consistent with how he behaved for
Speaker 4: the rest of his life.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've had the same thought.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like in in and I asked ed about his
Speaker 2: response to the guy. I said, so, the first time
Speaker 2: you met this guy, what did you think? And he
Speaker 2: said I thought His answer was very straightforward. He said,
Speaker 2: I was looking at his chest six inch circle on
Speaker 2: his chest and saying I was going to put all
Speaker 2: six of them right there.
Speaker 1: It was going to be him and not me.
Speaker 2: I don't think he said that lightly, like he's not frivolous.
Speaker 2: And this guy Ed was just, I mean, just like
Speaker 2: a veteran, well respected officer. I mean I don't know
Speaker 2: all the details of his career, but I mean, like,
Speaker 2: you know, a good guy.
Speaker 1: I don't think he said that.
Speaker 2: I don't think he would say that about anybody else
Speaker 2: in his career that he dealt with. But I also
Speaker 2: know that if I tell you, Jordan, the guy that's
Speaker 2: about to walk in this door is a murderer. I
Speaker 2: tell you that, whether it's true or not, that's going
Speaker 2: to taint the way that you think about this guy
Speaker 2: inner act with him, right.
Speaker 4: And I'm going to tell my buddy later on I
Speaker 4: met this guy, he was acting kind of weird. Right,
Speaker 4: there were these things about him, the way he looked
Speaker 4: at me, right, Yeah, And if you hadn't told me that,
Speaker 4: I might not have thought that. So that we can
Speaker 4: influence how we view other people by just being told
Speaker 4: something about them.
Speaker 3: Who knows whether it's true.
Speaker 2: And my intent was not to defend this wildlife criminal
Speaker 2: that we know is a convicted wildlife criminal.
Speaker 1: My goal was not to defend him at all.
Speaker 2: But I kept thinking about how easy it would be
Speaker 2: to pin something on. And what I thought about was
Speaker 2: back to my own hometown, Louis Delle and Charlie Edwards.
Speaker 2: We did a series years ago called Genuine Outlaws about
Speaker 2: these two guys from my hometown that were notorious.
Speaker 3: Turkey outlaws yep.
Speaker 2: And I just thought, what if there had been a
Speaker 2: wildlife relates, a game warden murder or a dead game
Speaker 2: warden in the epicenter of their turf. Right, you could
Speaker 2: interviewed one hundred people and said who killed that game warden?
Speaker 2: And they all probably would have blamed those guys for
Speaker 2: no reason other than they were they had animosity towards
Speaker 2: the game and fish. But I mean, you know, so,
Speaker 2: I just I just recognize how easy it would be
Speaker 2: if there was a murder in the epicenter of a
Speaker 2: pretty known outlaws.
Speaker 1: Region that you would just be like, well, I bet
Speaker 1: that guy did it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that would be easy.
Speaker 4: Well, and like, on the kind of on the other
Speaker 4: side of that argument, we've seen how these kind of
Speaker 4: serial offenders, these serial poachers kind of end up moving
Speaker 4: towards you know, crimes against humans, right, Like it indicates
Speaker 4: something about their you know, whether they're antisocial, whether they
Speaker 4: have some kind of you know, mental health issue, whether
Speaker 4: you know they're just like I don't care. Obviously, they
Speaker 4: don't care about the law, right And so then if
Speaker 4: they're in a position where you know, they can get
Speaker 4: some advantage by hurting someone else or killing someone else,
Speaker 4: they're kind of used to breaking the law, right And
Speaker 4: this is not like, this is not and this is
Speaker 4: what I've heard from from game wardens, Like, this is
Speaker 4: not the guy who goes out and like accidentally, you know,
Speaker 4: shoots a deer on private land or even like knowingly
Speaker 4: poaches at night one time. This is like this serial
Speaker 4: wildlife criminal. A lot of times they end up doing
Speaker 4: worse things, and so you know, it kind of fits
Speaker 4: that pattern. This guy sounds like he doesn't care about
Speaker 4: wildlife laws at all.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's established.
Speaker 4: And so you know, maybe he had something going he
Speaker 4: really cared about out there, you know, in in in
Speaker 4: the woods, and this game warden was going to mess
Speaker 4: it up.
Speaker 3: I don't know, and something happened.
Speaker 1: Would you have told the guy's name?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 4: No, I don't think so, I think And that's generally
Speaker 4: been our policy on blood Trails is if they haven't
Speaker 4: been accused, like officially accused, we don't say their real name.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that it, it's it.
Speaker 4: There was one episode where we got into a potential suspect.
Speaker 4: There was some evidence though, along with testimony from family.
Speaker 4: So but but generally speaking, we don't use the real name.
Speaker 4: And you know, for the same reasons that we talked about,
Speaker 4: like the family still around. There's also you know, legal
Speaker 4: potential legal issues, right if you defame someone, and you
Speaker 4: know there are protections First Amendment, like we journalists have protections.
Speaker 4: But it's like, do you do you need to get
Speaker 4: into that potential liability to tell the story? And if
Speaker 4: the answer is no, we could still tell it without
Speaker 4: that and we could be faithful to the story. Then
Speaker 4: it's kind of like we don't feel the need to yeah.
Speaker 2: So now okay, but then why did you wonder why
Speaker 2: I didn't tell the story tell a guy's name. I
Speaker 2: thought maybe you were going to be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I would have told the guy's name.
Speaker 4: No, I just wanted to hear what your rationale was. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: because because I've thought the same thing many times, like
Speaker 4: we do we say the real name?
Speaker 3: Do we not? And so I just was curious what
Speaker 3: you're thinking was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well I just as I heard the story,
Speaker 2: I was like, I mean, this guy was never convicted
Speaker 2: of I mean, they never even tried him. Yeah, they
Speaker 2: never even brought a conviction against him.
Speaker 3: So it's just like the guy's well, the guy's innocent.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And if you don't know, like if there's no
Speaker 4: reason besides the kind of public rumor, then it's really
Speaker 4: like we can't you know, like defame this guy and
Speaker 4: potentially harm his family for no reason.
Speaker 3: Basically, well, it was.
Speaker 2: It was I wish I could be in that community
Speaker 2: and understand, you know, like what all these people know
Speaker 2: or think or think they know. But because there there's
Speaker 2: got to be and then I know there was more
Speaker 2: back in the day in terms of a criminal case.
Speaker 2: You know, I think about the shotgun and again not
Speaker 2: not trying to. I mean, the shotgun could have been
Speaker 2: mashed down in the mud somehow and they just never
Speaker 2: found it. I mean they said they drained the lake
Speaker 2: and took metal detectors out there and stuff. But there's
Speaker 2: a lot of big questions. But if the if the gun,
Speaker 2: the gun ended up being the biggest thing that screamed
Speaker 2: foul play. Yeah, you know, the missing shotgun that was
Speaker 2: that was probably the biggest thing.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I wondered if maybe so, why are we so
Speaker 4: certain he had it in the first place, like, like
Speaker 4: not just that he took it out with him, but
Speaker 4: that he had it like in the truck.
Speaker 3: Was it just always in the truck?
Speaker 2: That was Again, this is one of these things that
Speaker 2: just time has erased the details. But I think if
Speaker 2: we had that case file, they would have been one
Speaker 2: hundred percent certain that he had the gun.
Speaker 1: And I think we couldn't say that because surely they
Speaker 1: would have.
Speaker 2: Gone to the family and been like, is Bucky shotgun
Speaker 2: at the house and they're like, no, he had he
Speaker 2: always carried it in his truck in the boardens, you know.
Speaker 2: Hank Jinks was like, yeah, he would have carried it
Speaker 2: always carried a shotgun.
Speaker 1: They always carried a shotgun.
Speaker 2: So I mean he had a shotgun, as I understand it,
Speaker 2: I think we could say he had a shotgun before
Speaker 2: the incident and the family and him and everybody.
Speaker 3: The shotgun was gone after.
Speaker 4: It because that because I did wonder if maybe someone
Speaker 4: stole it from his truck, like between like as it
Speaker 4: was just parked out there, if someone came along and
Speaker 4: they just saw it and they took it from the truck.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that would have been a major coincidence though, too,
Speaker 2: youldn't it.
Speaker 3: You know what? It would have It would have for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4: But again it was like I think someone said this, like,
Speaker 4: why would he have taken it in there if he
Speaker 4: was just doing like enforcement stuff. Yeah, right, because like
Speaker 4: it's kind of threatening, you know, Yeah, he had his deringer.
Speaker 4: To me, it was the shot, the shot from the
Speaker 4: derringer that said foul play more than the shotgun not
Speaker 4: being there, because that's like, we know, he pulled that
Speaker 4: trigger for some reason. Yeah, probably because he was felt
Speaker 4: threatened for some reason. Yeah, So that to me was
Speaker 4: the biggest indication, like, yeah, something happened because you wouldn't
Speaker 4: just I don't know, probably not just do it for fun, right, Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I'm really excited about this next episode. We
Speaker 2: are we're going to go into territory that we we've
Speaker 2: never gone into before in Bear Grease, and that we
Speaker 2: are going to How much detail did I give in
Speaker 2: the outro of the podcast? Do you remember what I said?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 5: You said game Warden had used deadly force to avoid
Speaker 5: getting drowned.
Speaker 2: Oh, I just spilled the whole thing out. Maybe we
Speaker 2: can take that back.
Speaker 1: I'm kidding now we.
Speaker 2: Uh uh, you didn't do that, Bear, I did?
Speaker 1: I spilled the hole.
Speaker 5: Okay, Well, I was just thinking that I'm not totally
Speaker 5: sure you said that or.
Speaker 3: No, I think you're right. I think I think you're right.
Speaker 1: I think I did you know what, Jordan?
Speaker 2: When I first started Bear Grease, one of the first
Speaker 2: real uh feedback that Steve Runella gave me, which was
Speaker 2: really good, was he said, well, you're burying the hook
Speaker 2: too deep, because sometimes I would go to deep long before.
Speaker 1: You kind of gave the hook.
Speaker 2: And so I think I've found a happy medium because
Speaker 2: sometimes you want to just like tease people along, but
Speaker 2: then sometimes you gotta just like tell them what happened.
Speaker 3: You know what's funny.
Speaker 4: He he's given also great advice to me for blood Trails.
Speaker 4: He's been he's been a big part of it. But
Speaker 4: he gave me the opposite advice. He was like, Jordan,
Speaker 4: you're giving away too much. You're giving away too much
Speaker 4: too early. Really tease them a little more. Yeah, give
Speaker 4: them a reason to keep listening. So I guess we
Speaker 4: just have opposite tendencies there, Yes, And that could be
Speaker 4: just from you know, doing journalism. You put everything at
Speaker 4: the top, right, like the first three paragraphs is going
Speaker 4: to be all the most important information. So that's just
Speaker 4: the model that I've written in for so long. It
Speaker 4: was hard to kind of save some you know, keep
Speaker 4: some things back.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's funny because yeah, I would have been opposite that.
Speaker 1: If it was up to me.
Speaker 2: On every bear grease, you wouldn't hear the hook till
Speaker 2: the very last second, and then you would just be like,
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, I couldn't I have been on pins
Speaker 2: and needles this whole time. But you kind of gotta,
Speaker 2: you kind of lead them in and then you kind
Speaker 2: of got to tell them like what's going on? Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then so yeah.
Speaker 1: So yeah.
Speaker 2: So this next episode, though, we we interview a game
Speaker 2: warden who h tells us, tells us the story of
Speaker 2: having to use deadly force on someone that's trying to
Speaker 2: drow him. So that's all I'll say. It's it's pretty interesting.
Speaker 2: Wild story, it is, Yeah, it is. It's a wild story. Well,
Speaker 2: so after this comes out, there'll be one more episode
Speaker 2: of Blood Trails for this year.
Speaker 4: Last episode comes out December eighteenth. Okay, now there's a chance.
Speaker 4: Well yeah, last episode comes out December eighteenth. We'll leave
Speaker 4: it at that. So okay, yep, yep. Thursdays is when
Speaker 4: is when they come out every Thursday.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they have been coming out every Thursday for
Speaker 2: like eight weeks.
Speaker 3: Yep. Exactly.
Speaker 1: When you run your seasons, you just run them all together.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that model for a for a podcast. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, we we five years ago just went with
Speaker 2: a we're going to just have an episode every week,
Speaker 2: you know, and so but I feel like you might
Speaker 2: that model gives you time to probably make some really
Speaker 2: quality episodes.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean I couldn't because we thought about that too,
Speaker 4: and it's just too much of a lift for me
Speaker 4: to do that, you know, that many episodes over that
Speaker 4: amount of time because I could work ahead, right, but
Speaker 4: then I would I wouldn't be able to keep up, Yes,
Speaker 4: because it takes so long to you know, like I say,
Speaker 4: get those public records.
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's six months. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I was trying to talk with an investigator in Georgia.
Speaker 4: It took six months for him to get approval from
Speaker 4: his agency, and then like all the whole process, it
Speaker 4: just it takes too long. So we do them by
Speaker 4: seasons because you know, we try to just make sure
Speaker 4: the quality is there and I've at least tried to
Speaker 4: talk to all the relevant people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, Well cool man, Well, anything else you need
Speaker 2: to tell us about Blood Trails.
Speaker 1: There's a there's a YouTube version of it.
Speaker 4: There is, Yeah, you can it's it's up on YouTube.
Speaker 4: There's a video version of the podcast. It's not quite
Speaker 4: dateline yet, but we're we're we're working on it, but
Speaker 4: people seem to really like it, so and like, if
Speaker 4: you're curious about what these people look like, that's a
Speaker 4: great way to watch it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: There's also, uh, we have a web page for each episode,
Speaker 4: so at the meat Eater dot com. Uh uh slash
Speaker 4: Blood Trails there's a case file for each of the
Speaker 4: episodes where we post images, you know, links to to listen, uh,
Speaker 4: and then we have an email so it's blood Trails
Speaker 4: at the meat Eater dot com. If you know you
Speaker 4: have a story you think we should cover, or a
Speaker 4: tip from a story that we've already covered, feel free
Speaker 4: to to send that in and I read all of
Speaker 4: it and try to respond to as much as I can.
Speaker 2: Cool man, that's great. Well, you're doing a great job
Speaker 2: with it, you really are. I know it makes a
Speaker 2: lot of work, and yeah, you're doing a great job.
Speaker 2: I look forward to when when Blood Trails solve some
Speaker 2: crack some case.
Speaker 3: That'll be cool. Yeah, that would be very cool. That'd
Speaker 3: be very cool. Yeah.
Speaker 4: No, I just I've been blown away by the response.
Speaker 4: People seem to really like it, and I just appreciate
Speaker 4: everyone who's who's listened to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, so.
Speaker 2: The Meat Eater Live Tour is starting very soon after
Speaker 2: this episode comes out. I think there's still tickets available
Speaker 2: in Birming, Birmingham, Nashville, Memphis, Dallas, and Austin. I think
Speaker 2: there's still tickets. The only the only town Jordan that
Speaker 2: there's not tickets left is Fadville, Arkansas.
Speaker 3: There you go, come on, you go coming out to
Speaker 3: see well.
Speaker 1: I mean, well, I'm not I'm not, That's not what
Speaker 1: I'm insinuating. Just meat eat. I'm kind of bragging on this.
Speaker 2: They asked me, or I told them a long time ago,
Speaker 2: it is like, if we do a live tour, you
Speaker 2: got to come to Fadeville, Arkansas.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so when they were putting this live tour together,
Speaker 2: one of the higher ups, the big men called me
Speaker 2: in was like, I think we should come to Fadeville.
Speaker 3: And I was like, you gotta come to Fadeville.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And sure enough, in three days the shows
Speaker 2: sold out.
Speaker 1: Keep thanking the people of Arkansas.
Speaker 3: Good folks that will.
Speaker 2: Come see Brent. You know, Brent's on a live tour.
Speaker 2: So and then yeah, Bary'll be there. It's kind of
Speaker 2: a secret. I'm gonna let it out though. Bary'll be there.
Speaker 2: And then we'll have one other secret guest that you'll
Speaker 2: be very glad is there. All right, So it's going
Speaker 2: Faidville and there there's there's secret guests at every location.
Speaker 3: You know, so they're all going to be fun. Yeah,
Speaker 3: all gonna be fun. Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 1: You coming to one in Dallas.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna try. Yeah, I'm gonna try.
Speaker 4: It's like three days before Christmas, but I'm definitely gonna
Speaker 4: try to be stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's a Christmas it's a Christmas theme.
Speaker 4: Hey, if if you're off work, you know, come out
Speaker 4: have some fun. Yeah, and your friends, Like, sounds like
Speaker 4: a great time.
Speaker 2: I've never met anybody that was disappointed. I'm sure there there.
Speaker 2: It's possible that someone would have been disappointed that wouldn't
Speaker 2: have contacted me.
Speaker 1: Just vibe.
Speaker 2: The vibe that I've gotten from every single live event,
Speaker 2: live turur that I've been on has been that just
Speaker 2: people have a great time, kind of a surprising good time.
Speaker 3: Yeah you know. Yeah, well yeah they do a great
Speaker 3: job with them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, they're fun.
Speaker 3: They're fun.
Speaker 1: So all right, well, thanks Jordan for coming up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having me. It's good to good to
Speaker 3: out here.
Speaker 2: Everybody can check out Blood Trails now the YouTube channel
Speaker 2: is it the podcast Meet Eater podcast?
Speaker 3: Yeah, the mutuo.
Speaker 4: You have like a separate YouTube channel for the podcasts,
Speaker 4: so it's on there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right there. Podcasts. Yeah, he just starts that
Speaker 3: it'll come up Blood.
Speaker 1: Trail all right, well, keep the wild places wild
Speaker 3: Because that's where the bears live.