WEBVTT - Part One: Thomas Kinkade: the Evil-est Painter

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<v Speaker 1>Also media Ah.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast that lies

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<v Speaker 2>about its guests and gets them made the suspects of

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<v Speaker 2>ongoing murder investigations. Welcome to the program, Randy Millhall and Randy,

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<v Speaker 2>have you ever been expected suspected of a series of

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<v Speaker 2>violent crimes?

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<v Speaker 3>Only a triple ridgis sign.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh that's a good crime to be suspected for. Well, Randy,

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<v Speaker 2>today we're going to come up with a crime and

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<v Speaker 2>insinuate to our listeners that you committed it, although you know, honestly,

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<v Speaker 2>before we started this podcast, you were talking about having

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<v Speaker 2>just moved to la and people looking at you suspiciously

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<v Speaker 2>because you are, like me, a hulking man with a beard.

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<v Speaker 2>I used to have a much longer beard too, and

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<v Speaker 2>I know those looks. And honestly, when I started the

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<v Speaker 2>rumors that Jamie Loftus had killed all those people in

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<v Speaker 2>Grand Rabbits, I was just trying to make her more

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<v Speaker 2>empathetic to the struggles of men like you and me,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, so that she knows what it's like. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>we're the really the the largest discriminated against group in

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<v Speaker 2>this country.

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<v Speaker 1>I cannot, I cannot let you continue this bit.

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<v Speaker 2>Why not who men who look like extras from one

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<v Speaker 2>of the Dwarf heavy Lord of the Rings movies. Like,

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<v Speaker 2>what's wrong with that?

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<v Speaker 3>Are you saying that?

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<v Speaker 1>Because like a lost shirt?

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<v Speaker 2>I did not know that you were wearing a lego

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<v Speaker 2>Lost T shirt. I am Randy, Welcome back to the show.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a pleasure. Thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>You're the artist and writer behind the Something Positive webcomic.

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<v Speaker 2>You are also the legal guardian of Popeye the Sailor Man.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, that is actually accurate.

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<v Speaker 2>And you came on the show for the first time.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was last year to talk about Scott

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<v Speaker 2>Adams because I've been a fan of your your work

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<v Speaker 2>for a while and I was I found out that

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<v Speaker 2>you were a fan of the pod and I was like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>this will be I like to do that. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>this will be great. We'll have Randy on for the

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<v Speaker 2>one episode about an artist that we ever do. Surely

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<v Speaker 2>there aren't that many like world class historical monsters who

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<v Speaker 2>are also working illustrators, right, how many could there be? Anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>this is your third time back on the show, you.

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<v Speaker 3>Know it is amazing. Yeah, a lot of artists.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I get when you think about all

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<v Speaker 2>of the other kinds of art that produces monsters. I

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<v Speaker 2>guess it's not surprising. Just don't trust people who are creative.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, if anybody has a creative thought around you,

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<v Speaker 2>just start hitting.

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<v Speaker 1>Them what by job by job titles ahead of creative?

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<v Speaker 3>I feel at.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, well you're about to be attacked if our

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<v Speaker 2>listeners do the job anyway, Randy, what do you know?

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<v Speaker 2>What have you heard about Thomas Kincaid?

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<v Speaker 3>I know he's dead, yes, and yes, despite being dead,

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<v Speaker 3>that's gonna be a real highlight of I know that

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<v Speaker 3>being dead, his signature still appears on brand new art,

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<v Speaker 3>which leads me to think there's some type of assembly

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<v Speaker 3>line going on. Uh, that's really it. Like I think

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<v Speaker 3>my grandmother had one of his prints, and that's about it. Like,

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<v Speaker 3>I know love artists? Are people in art loved to

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<v Speaker 3>dunk on him?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes he does. He gets his art gets attacked, and honestly,

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<v Speaker 2>some of the dunks you strike me as people being

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<v Speaker 2>like a little bit up their own assholes. But I

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<v Speaker 2>don't like his art particularly either. But no, he's not

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<v Speaker 2>a bad We're not. We're not just going to be

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<v Speaker 2>doing an episode where we make fun of this guy's

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<v Speaker 2>art because it's bad art. He both occupies a place

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<v Speaker 2>in culture where he contributed to the kind of right

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<v Speaker 2>wing derangement of our society. And more to the point,

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<v Speaker 2>he just like I am, a deeply unethical man who

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<v Speaker 2>took advantage of his customers.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>And he also is kind of the kind of the

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<v Speaker 2>Ford of of paintings. Like when you said about there

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<v Speaker 2>being a h An industrial factory aspect to what he

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<v Speaker 2>did is very much accurate, although maybe not entirely in

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<v Speaker 2>the way that you had predicted. But Randy, you want

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<v Speaker 2>to learn about Thomas motherfucking Kincaid.

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<v Speaker 3>I know. I was excited to and then I saw

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<v Speaker 3>that this meeting is schedule for three hours and I'm

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<v Speaker 3>a little more nervous about it now.

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<v Speaker 2>And how long straight to We'll see how long.

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<v Speaker 3>Bring those like Ford and all the anti semitisms. I'm like,

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<v Speaker 3>you can't wait to see what pamphlets t well not

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<v Speaker 3>that bad?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, well, Randy, I will say the working title for

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<v Speaker 1>this episode is the Panther of Light was Worse than Hitler.

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<v Speaker 2>That was for your eyes only, Sony. That's not an

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<v Speaker 2>accurate title. Sometimes sometimes you just you know, hyperbole is

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<v Speaker 2>a necessary coping mechanism. When you have to write eight

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<v Speaker 2>and a half thousand words about Thomas Kinkaid, the Painter

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<v Speaker 2>of Light. Anyway, here it fucking goes eight and a

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<v Speaker 2>half thousand something like that. Pretty normal script. Yeah, it's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot to write about Thomas Kinkaid though. Anyway, cold open, closed,

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<v Speaker 2>We're back. So I think probably more than half of

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<v Speaker 2>the people listening have some awareness of who this is

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<v Speaker 2>just after I mentioned his name. He is one of

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<v Speaker 2>the best known, if not the best known artists in

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<v Speaker 2>the United States. And like you said, Randy, you think

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<v Speaker 2>you have a relative who might have had one of

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<v Speaker 2>his prints. A lot of people do. Right, If you've

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<v Speaker 2>ever been walking through like a relative's house or a

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<v Speaker 2>particularly opulent Airbnb and seeing a garish painting or a

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<v Speaker 2>series of garish paintings featuring idealized rule or small town

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<v Speaker 2>life with kind of a distinctive fifties Americana feel and

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<v Speaker 2>a use of color and light that feels simultaneously quaint

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<v Speaker 2>yet sinister, you are familiar with the work of Thomas Kincaid,

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<v Speaker 2>And if you aren't, Sophie's going to put up on

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<v Speaker 2>the screen some examples for the listeners. I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>try and describe this. This is going to be one

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<v Speaker 2>of the more visual episodes we've had, just because we're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about a painter. That's part of why we're we're

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<v Speaker 2>doing adding video now, although I promise most of our

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<v Speaker 2>episodes won't be about painters.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, check out the YouTube. Yeah YouTube dot com slash

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<v Speaker 1>at behind the Bastards.

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<v Speaker 2>If not, let me describe the first one we've got

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<v Speaker 2>here is the perspective in this painting is really fucked.

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<v Speaker 2>But it looks like almost.

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<v Speaker 3>It might be me because I'm like, yeah, tractor, Yeah

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<v Speaker 3>is tiny.

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<v Speaker 2>That truck also even with the distance, looks tiny like that.

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<v Speaker 2>You've got a soldier walking towards like a cottage farm house,

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<v Speaker 2>but there's some bus that's clearly dropped him off on

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<v Speaker 2>a dirt road. He's walking home. Looks like about World

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<v Speaker 2>War two. Maybe it could be Vietnam era, probably more

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<v Speaker 2>closer to Vietnam around the tree so you know, yes, yep,

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<v Speaker 2>waiting for him. Yeah, so they've been waiting for him. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a soldier returning home. The cabin. Part of where

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<v Speaker 2>I say sinister is like it's a daytime picture, Like

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<v Speaker 2>it's clearly the middle of the day, Like you can

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<v Speaker 2>see blue sky and a lot of you know, bright clouds.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of light on the ground. But also

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<v Speaker 2>the cabin is glowing from the inside in a way

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<v Speaker 2>that I think it's supposed to seem warm and homie.

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<v Speaker 2>That makes it feel like like a cabin from a

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<v Speaker 2>fucking Sam Raimi movie. Like it feels like there's a

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<v Speaker 2>devil inside there, and the soldiers come back home having

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<v Speaker 2>just survived the war, to confront the evil that's devoured

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<v Speaker 2>his family.

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<v Speaker 3>He does have an ecronomic on in that backpack.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, that's why it's so bulgye Yes, yeah, that he

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<v Speaker 2>just this is an alternate history where we won Vietnam

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<v Speaker 2>by bringing the dead Eites down upon them. Honestly, pretty

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<v Speaker 2>good movie in that premise, or bad movie in that premise.

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<v Speaker 3>There's a role playing game in that I think, actually.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely, definitely.

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<v Speaker 3>So.

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<v Speaker 2>The second picture we've got here is kind of a

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<v Speaker 2>very classic Kincaid. This is a cabin in the woods again.

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<v Speaker 2>You've got like the whole cabin lit from the inside

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<v Speaker 2>in a way that is supposed to be homie but

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<v Speaker 2>also seems kind of vaguely sinister. Everything sparkles a lot,

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<v Speaker 2>there's almost a glossy feel like. It feels like if

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<v Speaker 2>you've ever put you've been like painting miniatures and like

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<v Speaker 2>done like a glaze or something over them. It feels

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<v Speaker 2>like the whole picture has been kind of glazed in

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<v Speaker 2>that way.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And then the third one we've.

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<v Speaker 3>Built, it looks like a Christmas village building.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, it does look like it is that. That's the

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<v Speaker 2>best way to describe it. Randy's if you've ever if

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<v Speaker 2>you ever had a relative who like what every year

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<v Speaker 2>on the holidays would put up one of those Christmas

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<v Speaker 2>model villages. All of his paintings of cabins look like that.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's a lot of small town paintings too, very

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<v Speaker 2>much like kind of the best touchstone for that if

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<v Speaker 2>you haven't seen a Kincaid somehow. And then this last one, surprise, surprise,

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<v Speaker 2>he's super Christian and not the good kind. And we've

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<v Speaker 2>got this painting of a cross on top of a

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<v Speaker 2>mountain and like the clouds are kind of like retreating

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<v Speaker 2>from the path of the that of the cross like

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<v Speaker 2>that that gives it a line straight to the sun

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<v Speaker 2>which is setting. It's this I don't know very again,

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<v Speaker 2>it almost looks AI generated, right, I think a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people's first reaction to seeing these in the year

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty four, if they weren't familiar with Kincaid, would go, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>are these like some AI art? Right? It almost that

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<v Speaker 2>like hyper real, like shiny look that all of the

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<v Speaker 2>AI shit has his work kind of has.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's very unpleasant. Yeah, so much.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I find it off putting too, And I

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<v Speaker 2>think there's a good reason why my head immediately goes

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<v Speaker 2>to and I look at it now, Oh, this kind

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<v Speaker 2>of looks like a lot of AI art, because every

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<v Speaker 2>AI image generator has scraped a shitload of Kincaid's work.

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<v Speaker 2>He was incredibly prolific and incredibly popular, and I do

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<v Speaker 2>think he actually has probably wound up having an influence

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<v Speaker 2>on because of how well his stuff like It doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>just sell, people will post kincaid paintings to like Facebook

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<v Speaker 2>to get engagement, and I think that that has to

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<v Speaker 2>a significant extent influenced how a lot of these image

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<v Speaker 2>generators work and a lot of the crap that they

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<v Speaker 2>put out. And we'll be talking about that more later.

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<v Speaker 2>But for those of you who haven't been able to

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<v Speaker 2>see the art, or those of you who just want

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<v Speaker 2>to hear someone smarter than me describe it. I want

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<v Speaker 2>to quote Joan Didion's description of Thomas Kincaid's style. A

0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:03.120
<v Speaker 2>Kincaid painting was typically rendered in slightly surreal pastels. It

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<v Speaker 2>typically featured a cottage or a house of such insistent

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<v Speaker 2>coziness as to seem actually sinister, suggestive of a trap

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<v Speaker 2>designed to attract Hansel and Gretel. Every window was lit

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<v Speaker 2>to really effect as if the interior of the structure

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<v Speaker 2>might be on fire. The cottages had faxed rooms and

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<v Speaker 2>resembled a gingerbread house. The houses were Victorian and resembled

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<v Speaker 2>idealized bed and breakfast, at least two of which in Placerville,

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<v Speaker 2>the Chinchester McKey House and the Comelback Blair House, claim

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<v Speaker 2>to have been the models for kincaid Christmas paintings. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's very much a lot of it's kind of this

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<v Speaker 2>idolized rural California chic and it's yeah, I think I

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<v Speaker 2>think Joan kind of gets it right there. It does

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<v Speaker 2>there's something vaguely evil about his paintings.

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<v Speaker 3>But suddenly I want to thinkcaid painting of the gas

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<v Speaker 3>station from Texas chains on.

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<v Speaker 2>Mass that's actually there's kind of a whole style of

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<v Speaker 2>like meme art, that is, people taking Kincaid paintings and

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<v Speaker 2>like turning them into pea pieces of horror. We'll talk

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<v Speaker 2>about that in a little bit, but it's remarkably easy

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<v Speaker 2>to do. Now. Kinkaid is the kind of guy who

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<v Speaker 2>is mostly remembered as making like wal art for hotel

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<v Speaker 2>grade kind of shit. But he's probably the best selling

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<v Speaker 2>American painter of the last generation. And he is, by

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<v Speaker 2>any of any account, one of the wealthy, wealthiest artists

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<v Speaker 2>of any medium ever to live. He died worth somewhere

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<v Speaker 2>between fifty and seventy million dollars. So you were talking

0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:29.640
<v Speaker 2>about like basically no one in the arts ever makes

0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:34.280
<v Speaker 2>that kind of money, right, Like he is the yeah.

0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.320
<v Speaker 3>The only person I can think of who probably can't

0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:38.600
<v Speaker 3>close and many have the pass was like Charles Schultz

0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:39.920
<v Speaker 3>in his lifetime.

0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:45.840
<v Speaker 2>Schultz das maybe yeah, yeah, you know, yes, yeah, I

0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:48.040
<v Speaker 2>think you're probably right that, Like you have to go

0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:51.319
<v Speaker 2>to some of the most to the most successful commercial

0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.720
<v Speaker 2>cartoonists of and again you're still going back like a

0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.280
<v Speaker 2>generation to talk about anyone getting that kind of money

0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:00.800
<v Speaker 2>for this sort of work, And you know, part of

0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.960
<v Speaker 2>what makes him different is that those guys like Schultz

0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.920
<v Speaker 2>is making art that is consumed by tens of millions

0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:08.760
<v Speaker 2>of people. Right, That's why there's so much money, and

0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:11.600
<v Speaker 2>it was so much money in it for him. Painting

0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:16.559
<v Speaker 2>is a bit different, right, most paintings, you know, most painters,

0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:19.040
<v Speaker 2>if they get rich, do it because they make something

0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:22.920
<v Speaker 2>that gets you know, develops a value because of its

0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:27.120
<v Speaker 2>kind of cultural weight, and it gets sold to someone

0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:29.319
<v Speaker 2>very wealthy who's willing to pay for it, and then

0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.400
<v Speaker 2>it kind of gets deranged from any sort of real

0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:34.600
<v Speaker 2>value that can go back to the artist. Because what

0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:38.120
<v Speaker 2>happens with great paintings and valuable works of art when

0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.640
<v Speaker 2>they get bought by rich people usually is those rich

0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.160
<v Speaker 2>people put them in storage containers and trade them back

0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:44.839
<v Speaker 2>and forth with each other as a way of kind

0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:47.680
<v Speaker 2>of laundering money. That is most of the art market,

0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:53.440
<v Speaker 2>like the big art market. Kincaid made all of this money.

0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:57.440
<v Speaker 2>He didn't make this money selling originals to very rich people.

0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:00.439
<v Speaker 2>He made all of his money selling prints to middle

0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:01.240
<v Speaker 2>class people.

0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:01.800
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:07.360
<v Speaker 2>Uh. And that's that's completely unique. No one else really

0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:09.480
<v Speaker 2>has done it to the extent that he was able

0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.760
<v Speaker 2>to do it. And you know, it's counting stuff like

0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:14.880
<v Speaker 2>this is always kind of a crap shoot, but one

0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:16.719
<v Speaker 2>credible estimate says that sort of at the height of

0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.640
<v Speaker 2>his popularity, something like one in ten American homes had

0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.520
<v Speaker 2>a Thomas Kincaid print on at least one wall, which

0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:25.040
<v Speaker 2>is nuts. Like, that's a crazy level of penetration.

0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:30.440
<v Speaker 3>I guarantee more now because I know his label has

0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:35.440
<v Speaker 3>licensing agreements with Harry Potter, Disney and the Disney brands,

0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:37.760
<v Speaker 3>Like there are yeah, looking marveled.

0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.760
<v Speaker 2>There's Star Wars shit, yeah.

0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.640
<v Speaker 3>The Star Wars ones I've seen, and there that's some

0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.480
<v Speaker 3>ugly composition. I feel kind of that's saying I don't

0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:46.960
<v Speaker 3>like busting of art, but it's just.

0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:50.960
<v Speaker 2>It's it's he's turned into this is not really as

0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:52.880
<v Speaker 2>much of what it was for the most top part

0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:54.880
<v Speaker 2>when he was alive, but it's just kind of turned into, well,

0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:56.520
<v Speaker 2>people know this name, and they know that they can

0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:58.600
<v Speaker 2>get art from here, so let's make as many deals

0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:01.960
<v Speaker 2>as we can. But during his lifetime, it was really

0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:04.520
<v Speaker 2>just selling his work, and we're going to talk about

0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.440
<v Speaker 2>like how he actually made that profitable because it was

0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.120
<v Speaker 2>by taking the logic that we see use in multi

0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.880
<v Speaker 2>level marketing like pyramid schemes and by right wing populist

0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:17.320
<v Speaker 2>politicians and applying it to art sales. Right, that's how

0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.880
<v Speaker 2>he got this successful. And the fact that this worked

0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:22.960
<v Speaker 2>says a lot about our country, which is kind of

0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:25.280
<v Speaker 2>why we're telling this story in the Year of Our

0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.360
<v Speaker 2>Lord twenty twenty four. Is this as we watch an

0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.720
<v Speaker 2>election where one side is largely propped up by an

0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:36.920
<v Speaker 2>alliance of used car dealers, cryptos, scammers and fucking multi

0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:38.560
<v Speaker 2>level marketing con men.

0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:42.160
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, you might be being generous on that one.

0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:49.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. William Thomas Kinkaid the Third was born January nineteenth,

0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:54.560
<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifty eight, in Sacramento, California, better known as the

0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:58.520
<v Speaker 2>very crack of Hell itself. Have you been to Sacramento much?

0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.160
<v Speaker 2>I've not been to City of Trees? They call it

0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:04.120
<v Speaker 2>City a Tree.

0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.880
<v Speaker 1>And yes, yes, Robert, yes.

0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:11.000
<v Speaker 2>Uh it's okay. I had to live in reading Sacramento,

0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.840
<v Speaker 2>I know, I know, suffering too. Uh So he grew

0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:18.400
<v Speaker 2>up in Placerville. He grew up in Placerville. Sacramento's fine.

0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:20.920
<v Speaker 2>He grew up in Placerville, which was a quiet mountain

0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:24.920
<v Speaker 2>town in the Sierra Nevada foothills. His childhood is always

0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:27.200
<v Speaker 2>a sore spot for him. He does not, he does

0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:29.440
<v Speaker 2>not recall it as a nice one. But he's also

0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:32.560
<v Speaker 2>a professional fabulous, so he's going to lie about it constantly.

0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:35.200
<v Speaker 2>But one thing that is more or less accurate is

0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:38.560
<v Speaker 2>that he came from a broken home. His father abandoned

0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:41.560
<v Speaker 2>the family when Thomas was five. He was a painter,

0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.800
<v Speaker 2>although he never sold anything and mostly was an alcoholic

0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.320
<v Speaker 2>who survived off of part time janitorial work. Thomas is prob.

0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:52.360
<v Speaker 3>That's most painters.

0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:57.880
<v Speaker 2>That's most painters. Yes, drunken and doing janitorial work to

0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.520
<v Speaker 2>get by because painting is just not a great way

0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:05.640
<v Speaker 2>to get money. Nope, h Thomas. His brother Patrick recalls

0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.040
<v Speaker 2>him as a lovable, sad sack who was more of

0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.200
<v Speaker 2>a bit player in their childhoods than a father. Right,

0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.120
<v Speaker 2>this is not a situation where like he's gone entirely,

0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:18.159
<v Speaker 2>but I know it's a real bleak. Like he's like

0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:21.960
<v Speaker 2>a guest star in like a TV sitcom like Onis

0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.520
<v Speaker 2>once a season, he'll come in for an episode.

0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:28.080
<v Speaker 3>Charles Nelson Riley.

0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:32.479
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Weirdly, one of the quotes from Patrick about their

0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:35.879
<v Speaker 2>dad sounds very similar to Doctor Evil's speech about his

0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:39.480
<v Speaker 2>father and Austin powers and I just have to I'm

0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.480
<v Speaker 2>not going to try to do the voice. But Tom

0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.280
<v Speaker 2>and I both certainly felt that we were more sophisticated

0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:47.840
<v Speaker 2>than he was. He'd go off on these tangents, these

0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.000
<v Speaker 2>flights of fancy about what he was going to do

0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:52.680
<v Speaker 2>with his life, these bouts of expertise that he really

0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.560
<v Speaker 2>had no expertise about. He'd be so into it, and

0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:57.800
<v Speaker 2>Tom and I would just sit there and smile and nod,

0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:00.000
<v Speaker 2>knowing that this was all nonsense. And then my father

0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:02.560
<v Speaker 2>didn't really have the capacity to carry out that plan.

0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.200
<v Speaker 2>He wanted to sail around the Sea of Cortes. He

0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:07.399
<v Speaker 2>had this weird little boat that in no way was ready,

0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:09.119
<v Speaker 2>nor was he a sailor. He had a hat and

0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:16.399
<v Speaker 2>a map. Wow, I'm sorry, I'm not laughing at your

0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:18.280
<v Speaker 2>sad childhood, but that's pretty funny.

0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:23.080
<v Speaker 3>No, that's that's kind of like, that's amazing. Yeah, it

0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:24.880
<v Speaker 3>feels like some morested development level.

0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.359
<v Speaker 2>Since their dad was pretty useless, care and feeding of

0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.600
<v Speaker 2>the family fell upon their single mother. She got by

0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:37.040
<v Speaker 2>as best she could, working as a notary public and

0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.800
<v Speaker 2>surviving with the help of government welfare. Unfortunately, Like, there's

0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.960
<v Speaker 2>no shame in having to get by on welfare. As

0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:50.359
<v Speaker 2>the problem is, she hid this dependency from her kids, which,

0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:52.840
<v Speaker 2>as a result, they grew up not kind of and

0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:55.400
<v Speaker 2>I think this plays into how Tom is as an adult.

0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.280
<v Speaker 2>They grew up not really aware of how much of

0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:01.280
<v Speaker 2>their survival had hinged on the existence of a social

0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.119
<v Speaker 2>safety net. For an example of kind of how she

0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:07.080
<v Speaker 2>hid this, Tom and his brother as kids thought that

0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:09.879
<v Speaker 2>the jars of peanut butter stamped property of El Dorado

0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.160
<v Speaker 2>County were gifts from friends like she. She didn't want

0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:15.919
<v Speaker 2>to admit to them how bad their financial situation was,

0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.280
<v Speaker 2>and as a result, as kids, they weren't really aware

0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:21.400
<v Speaker 2>of like how much they like their family was being

0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:24.960
<v Speaker 2>supported by this by society, right, which is I think

0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.159
<v Speaker 2>not bad, especially if you're a kid who grows up

0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:30.880
<v Speaker 2>to be crazy rich. Maybe the feeling that, like, oh,

0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:33.000
<v Speaker 2>when I was a kid and needed it, I was

0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:36.000
<v Speaker 2>able to benefit from the support of my society. Perhaps

0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:38.480
<v Speaker 2>I have a moral obligation now that I'm rich to

0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.080
<v Speaker 2>help out other people. Thomas is not going to grow

0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.800
<v Speaker 2>up feeling that way, right, Yeah, I mean maybe he

0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:46.720
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't have either wayis right.

0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:50.080
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I feel sympathy and empathy for her.

0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Because yeah, it's tough.

0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:55.280
<v Speaker 3>You don't it's got to be a bruise to the ego.

0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:58.280
<v Speaker 3>And also you don't want your kid be made fun

0:19:58.320 --> 0:19:59.560
<v Speaker 3>of because.

0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:03.200
<v Speaker 2>Right the kids they go schooled pretty brutal. Yeah, yeah,

0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:06.159
<v Speaker 2>and I get why you would hide that. I understand

0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:09.960
<v Speaker 2>like the shame of it, you know, I am. I'm

0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:11.560
<v Speaker 2>thinking back to my own child, and I'm kind of

0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:14.400
<v Speaker 2>glad that my dad let me know about, like when

0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.680
<v Speaker 2>he was on unemployment, like what that is and how

0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:19.479
<v Speaker 2>it works, and like growing up with even that kind

0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.840
<v Speaker 2>of understanding to yeah, yeah, if.

0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:24.840
<v Speaker 3>You need help, you need help, then right, you should

0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:25.520
<v Speaker 3>be able to get it.

0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:28.840
<v Speaker 2>And that's that's not how he's going to Patrick is

0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:30.680
<v Speaker 2>going to grow up thinking about this sort of stuff.

0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:32.520
<v Speaker 2>Or that's not how Thomas and Patrick are going to

0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:34.000
<v Speaker 2>grow up thinking about this sort of stuff.

0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:34.640
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:37.480
<v Speaker 2>Their mother, they remember as a very cheery person who

0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.520
<v Speaker 2>used good humor to hide their desperate financial straits. At

0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:43.640
<v Speaker 2>one point, all of the family furniture was repossessed. When

0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:45.680
<v Speaker 2>the boys came home to an empty house, their mother

0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:47.800
<v Speaker 2>told them she'd chosen to get rid of the furniture

0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:49.639
<v Speaker 2>so they could have a fun time camping out in

0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:51.960
<v Speaker 2>their house. So we get not shitting on this lady.

0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:54.280
<v Speaker 2>She's doing the best with what she's got. That's that's true.

0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:59.960
<v Speaker 3>I mean, yeah, I get the desire to shield your

0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:04.960
<v Speaker 3>children from stuff like that because that's going to that's

0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:08.040
<v Speaker 3>a trauma. You're trying to make sure. She sounds like

0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:08.680
<v Speaker 3>a great mom.

0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:11.320
<v Speaker 2>To be honest, she sounds like she did her very best.

0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:14.080
<v Speaker 2>You know, you can't guarantee kids are going to come

0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:15.480
<v Speaker 2>out not be an assholes.

0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:15.920
<v Speaker 3>No.

0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:18.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And that said, I'm also not one hundred percent

0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:21.440
<v Speaker 2>sure how much of this to believe because that does

0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:25.480
<v Speaker 2>sound like a Hallmark original movie. And Thomas is like

0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:29.760
<v Speaker 2>he always has Hallmark brain. He's constantly spinning his own

0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:34.679
<v Speaker 2>life story. And I wouldn't be entirely surprised if aspects

0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:37.679
<v Speaker 2>of this whole broken home, you know, plucky but but

0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:41.920
<v Speaker 2>beleaguered single mom story were kind of played up because

0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:44.960
<v Speaker 2>he knows how they play as like a narrative, right.

0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:48.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't know though, But his version of the story

0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:51.040
<v Speaker 2>is that at a very young age, his mother told

0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:52.399
<v Speaker 2>him that he had to be the man of his

0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:55.800
<v Speaker 2>house now because his dad had left. Now, that same

0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:58.440
<v Speaker 2>version of the story, the one that Thomas liked to share,

0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:01.240
<v Speaker 2>claims that in school he was a child prodigy, good

0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:04.880
<v Speaker 2>at math cifix every class, but especially drawn to art.

0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:09.040
<v Speaker 2>His first major artistic venture was commercial. At age fourteen,

0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:11.440
<v Speaker 2>he set up a stand selling his drawings for two

0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:14.320
<v Speaker 2>dollars each. In an article for The New Yorker, Sue

0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:16.800
<v Speaker 2>or Lean writes, every time he sold one, he would

0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:18.840
<v Speaker 2>marvel at how he could make money on something that

0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:22.080
<v Speaker 2>had taken him only fifteen minutes to do. And that

0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:25.159
<v Speaker 2>does that his early attitude about art as well, I

0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:28.680
<v Speaker 2>can with very little work make money off of this,

0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:31.680
<v Speaker 2>Like kind of he's already thinking, how can I maximize

0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:34.600
<v Speaker 2>spending as little time as possible to get as much

0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:37.400
<v Speaker 2>return on the time I put into art? Like he's

0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:43.479
<v Speaker 2>financialized those Yeah, I do if he is. I mean

0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:46.520
<v Speaker 2>it sounds like he was actually very poor. I get

0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:50.040
<v Speaker 2>that right, because it's this thing that like people who

0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:53.440
<v Speaker 2>grow more comfortable, it's hard to understand, but like you

0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:56.479
<v Speaker 2>kind of have to think of everything in financial terms

0:22:56.560 --> 0:22:59.040
<v Speaker 2>when you're that amazing kid. So I'm not surprised.

0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:03.480
<v Speaker 3>That's fair and honestly, like, on one level, it's nice

0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:07.960
<v Speaker 3>to know that someone with archistic skill early realized that

0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:12.199
<v Speaker 3>they could make money because I've do so Many artists

0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:16.960
<v Speaker 3>don't understand the value of the work and over really

0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:19.840
<v Speaker 3>hard for it. So on one hand, it's nice to

0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:23.080
<v Speaker 3>know the young age he understood his value. I just

0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:26.040
<v Speaker 3>also know where this is going. Yeah, well, yes, I'm

0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:27.080
<v Speaker 3>not happy about it.

0:23:27.480 --> 0:23:32.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah. Now, Thomas was so was promising enough as

0:23:32.640 --> 0:23:35.840
<v Speaker 2>an artist that he started attracting mentors as a teenager.

0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:39.280
<v Speaker 2>One of them was a prominent artist named Glenn Wessels,

0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:41.680
<v Speaker 2>who was a professor at the California College of Arts

0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:45.639
<v Speaker 2>and You See Berkeley. Wessels eventually convinced Kincaid to pursue

0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:48.680
<v Speaker 2>art as a career and go to UC Berkeley. Now,

0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:51.080
<v Speaker 2>the story of Glenn and Thomas is a load bearing

0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:53.720
<v Speaker 2>piece of the Thomas Kincaid story, so much so that

0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:55.760
<v Speaker 2>in two thousand and eight it became the subject of

0:23:55.760 --> 0:24:01.560
<v Speaker 2>a Christmas biopic titled Thomas Kincaid's Christmas Cottage. Peter O'Toole

0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:05.560
<v Speaker 2>plays Glenn, and in a shocking twist, Thomas Kincaid is

0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:10.200
<v Speaker 2>played by Jared Padilechi aka the less Interesting brother from Supernatural.

0:24:10.720 --> 0:24:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Really really, I was shocked as hell to see.

0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:19.040
<v Speaker 3>That that's some that's not where I thought that was

0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:19.520
<v Speaker 3>gonna go.

0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:24.800
<v Speaker 2>Neither did I. It's like right at the start of

0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:29.240
<v Speaker 2>the series. Jared Padialachi too, So I am.

0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:31.600
<v Speaker 3>So sorry, but I am absolute Looking up screenshots of

0:24:31.640 --> 0:24:33.800
<v Speaker 3>that movie.

0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:38.320
<v Speaker 2>People say it's okay. The audience store is sixty two percent.

0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:42.359
<v Speaker 1>I can't believe they had Rory Gilmore as a worst boyfriend.

0:24:43.400 --> 0:24:49.399
<v Speaker 2>Wow. Wow, he's clearly the worst Winchester brother, Sophie gezor

0:24:49.720 --> 0:24:54.360
<v Speaker 2>boyfriend between us.

0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:57.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, look at that movie.

0:24:57.920 --> 0:25:02.880
<v Speaker 2>Also like it's it's by any count, Like it's what's

0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:05.320
<v Speaker 2>the word I'm looking for. It's a compliment to have

0:25:05.400 --> 0:25:08.480
<v Speaker 2>Jared Padileki in two thousand and six cast as you

0:25:08.680 --> 0:25:12.399
<v Speaker 2>in the movie about your your adolescent or your young adulthood.

0:25:12.680 --> 0:25:15.960
<v Speaker 2>But also like, I'm sorry, Thomas Kincaid, you don't look

0:25:16.000 --> 0:25:17.080
<v Speaker 2>like Jared Padillachi.

0:25:18.000 --> 0:25:25.480
<v Speaker 3>What are we talking about here, Thomas No, absolutely, Sophie

0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:27.800
<v Speaker 3>pulled that up because the people need to see, like

0:25:27.880 --> 0:25:31.080
<v Speaker 3>the toe with a beard, he does.

0:25:30.880 --> 0:25:34.120
<v Speaker 2>Not look like two thousand and six Jared Batileki.

0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:37.600
<v Speaker 3>No, No, he doesn't.

0:25:37.680 --> 0:25:43.159
<v Speaker 2>Two thousand and six Future Walker Texas Ranger disastrous idea

0:25:43.200 --> 0:25:47.920
<v Speaker 2>for a reboot. Jared Padileki, Oh my god, there's so fun.

0:25:49.320 --> 0:25:51.399
<v Speaker 2>Oh there's a picture of a mullet.

0:25:51.760 --> 0:26:00.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah yeah, yeah, that man knows the street value of Merbie.

0:26:00.560 --> 0:26:02.520
<v Speaker 1>Rory Gilmore is the worst boyfriend.

0:26:03.160 --> 0:26:06.479
<v Speaker 2>He could be Rory Gilmore's worst boyfriend, but Rory Gilmore

0:26:06.480 --> 0:26:08.919
<v Speaker 2>would have had to have several hard years first.

0:26:12.600 --> 0:26:16.919
<v Speaker 3>He looks like a pretending to be straight and trailer

0:26:17.000 --> 0:26:20.440
<v Speaker 3>park version of Glenn Shandox, who was Otho and Beatlejuice.

0:26:22.040 --> 0:26:25.400
<v Speaker 2>What a very specific comparison. You know, thank you.

0:26:28.280 --> 0:26:32.960
<v Speaker 3>Who should have played him because he was an amazing actor.

0:26:34.440 --> 0:26:39.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah and so damn anyway, real quick, Yeah, speaking of

0:26:41.560 --> 0:26:47.280
<v Speaker 2>Jared Padaluchi. This podcast is sponsored by Devan Dart.

0:26:47.600 --> 0:26:50.360
<v Speaker 1>I thought you're gonna say your worst boyfriend.

0:26:51.160 --> 0:26:54.639
<v Speaker 2>I was making I was making a supernatural fandom joke.

0:26:55.560 --> 0:27:00.359
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I just think of the worst, most upset adding

0:27:00.960 --> 0:27:03.119
<v Speaker 3>furry fetish stuff that someone can inflict on it.

0:27:03.280 --> 0:27:06.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh, you can find some great furry fetish supernatural cross

0:27:06.640 --> 0:27:10.120
<v Speaker 2>art good stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, fine, fight.

0:27:11.680 --> 0:27:15.320
<v Speaker 3>For super natural supernatural.

0:27:14.800 --> 0:27:18.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah h yeah, super fur natural damn. Yeah, there's probably

0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:21.359
<v Speaker 2>a whole convention based around that. Anyway, if you're if

0:27:21.400 --> 0:27:25.600
<v Speaker 2>you're a member of the supernatural furry Pornography fandom. This

0:27:25.640 --> 0:27:28.760
<v Speaker 2>has been your lucky day on Behind the Bastards. Here's

0:27:28.800 --> 0:27:39.840
<v Speaker 2>some ads. We're back anyway. Uh so, yeah, I don't

0:27:39.880 --> 0:27:42.040
<v Speaker 2>know about this movie, but what one reviewer calls it

0:27:42.119 --> 0:27:46.560
<v Speaker 2>overly sentimental and overly acted, yet surprisingly enjoyable, which corresponds

0:27:46.560 --> 0:27:48.880
<v Speaker 2>to how a lot of people feel about Thomas's artwork.

0:27:49.000 --> 0:27:49.080
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:27:49.160 --> 0:27:51.680
<v Speaker 2>You could say that about every Kincaid painting. It's cloingly

0:27:51.720 --> 0:27:54.840
<v Speaker 2>sweet and it drips with enough nostalgia to clog your arteries,

0:27:55.040 --> 0:27:58.280
<v Speaker 2>but there is something compelling about it. This may be

0:27:58.520 --> 0:28:00.760
<v Speaker 2>it's like that. That is kind of the thing about

0:28:00.760 --> 0:28:03.600
<v Speaker 2>it is, like, it's not it's wal art. It's the

0:28:03.680 --> 0:28:06.520
<v Speaker 2>kind of shit you'd see in a hotel, except most

0:28:06.560 --> 0:28:08.000
<v Speaker 2>of the kind of shit you'd see in a hotel

0:28:08.080 --> 0:28:11.359
<v Speaker 2>you would never look at or think about again, Thomas Kinkaid,

0:28:11.600 --> 0:28:15.560
<v Speaker 2>there is something about them, right, There is something interesting

0:28:15.760 --> 0:28:18.480
<v Speaker 2>going on here. I'm not saying that like it's good

0:28:19.000 --> 0:28:23.080
<v Speaker 2>or artistically, you know, brilliant, but there's there's a reason

0:28:23.200 --> 0:28:28.400
<v Speaker 2>different groups of people obsessively edit and modify kincad art.

0:28:28.400 --> 0:28:31.480
<v Speaker 2>Like there's a couple of different subcultures based around that.

0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:33.679
<v Speaker 2>You can find a lot of his work with like

0:28:33.800 --> 0:28:36.720
<v Speaker 2>eldritch horrors and elder gods added in as in, So

0:28:36.800 --> 0:28:39.720
<v Speaker 2>he's going to show you this Thomas Kincaid lighthouse paired

0:28:39.720 --> 0:28:40.440
<v Speaker 2>with Cthulhu.

0:28:40.840 --> 0:28:42.360
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, that's gorgeous.

0:28:42.560 --> 0:28:45.200
<v Speaker 2>It works pretty well. Yeah, Like it's a much better

0:28:45.280 --> 0:28:47.200
<v Speaker 2>painting when you throw Cthulhu in there.

0:28:47.320 --> 0:28:47.800
<v Speaker 1>Not matters.

0:28:49.120 --> 0:28:52.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And while Thomas Kinkaid's stuff, they do a Star

0:28:52.800 --> 0:28:55.360
<v Speaker 2>Wars imprint. There's been like a fan thing where people

0:28:55.400 --> 0:28:59.280
<v Speaker 2>will take his borderline surreal landscapes and cabin paintings and

0:28:59.320 --> 0:29:01.920
<v Speaker 2>turn them into this sits of colorful Star Wars battles,

0:29:02.600 --> 0:29:04.320
<v Speaker 2>as you can see here in this painting of a

0:29:04.360 --> 0:29:08.280
<v Speaker 2>Thomas Kincaid cottage with a pair of Ataight's not bad.

0:29:08.520 --> 0:29:08.880
<v Speaker 2>Not bad.

0:29:08.880 --> 0:29:10.040
<v Speaker 3>I've seen that one before.

0:29:10.160 --> 0:29:13.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeahh surprisingly they kind of fit in, like it is.

0:29:14.040 --> 0:29:17.000
<v Speaker 2>That doesn't work. It doesn't look jarring, right.

0:29:18.160 --> 0:29:20.240
<v Speaker 3>The worst part is that looks better than all the

0:29:20.280 --> 0:29:22.000
<v Speaker 3>official Thomas can Cad Star.

0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:24.880
<v Speaker 2>Wars so much battling, so much better.

0:29:25.320 --> 0:29:27.320
<v Speaker 3>God, like that is depressing.

0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:32.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Anyway, Thomas moves on to another art school after

0:29:32.000 --> 0:29:34.840
<v Speaker 2>two years at Berkeley, and it's somewhere in this period

0:29:35.080 --> 0:29:37.040
<v Speaker 2>like when he kind of leaves Berkeley to go to

0:29:37.040 --> 0:29:39.400
<v Speaker 2>this outher art school. That there's a major shift in

0:29:39.480 --> 0:29:42.440
<v Speaker 2>his personality right around the same time he leaves, because

0:29:43.120 --> 0:29:45.400
<v Speaker 2>the next art school he goes to is in Pasadena.

0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:48.640
<v Speaker 2>At age twenty, he undergoes what Sue or Lean described

0:29:48.680 --> 0:29:52.200
<v Speaker 2>as a Christian awakening. Quote. It changed his art. It

0:29:52.240 --> 0:29:55.480
<v Speaker 2>stopped being about his fears and anxieties and became optimistic

0:29:55.520 --> 0:29:59.160
<v Speaker 2>and inspirational with themes like hometowns and perfect days and

0:29:59.280 --> 0:30:03.240
<v Speaker 2>natural beauty. And millions of people responded. Now, this is

0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:05.080
<v Speaker 2>what Sue writes to The New Yorker, this is what

0:30:05.160 --> 0:30:07.960
<v Speaker 2>Thomas claims. I don't know that I think this is true.

0:30:08.000 --> 0:30:11.120
<v Speaker 2>In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not right, because this

0:30:11.320 --> 0:30:13.840
<v Speaker 2>is a very If you've spent a lot of time

0:30:13.840 --> 0:30:16.200
<v Speaker 2>at like revivals, if you've seen a lot of like

0:30:16.440 --> 0:30:20.200
<v Speaker 2>Christian evangelical speeches, this is how they all go.

0:30:20.600 --> 0:30:20.760
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:30:20.960 --> 0:30:23.360
<v Speaker 2>Usually sometime when I'm in college, I was surrounded by

0:30:23.360 --> 0:30:25.440
<v Speaker 2>this degeneracy. But then like I had this and it

0:30:25.560 --> 0:30:28.400
<v Speaker 2>changed everything. Once I, you know, once I you know,

0:30:28.480 --> 0:30:31.360
<v Speaker 2>saw the truth and accepted Jesus, Like my whole life

0:30:31.400 --> 0:30:33.959
<v Speaker 2>was different. Right. That's how these stories go. That's not

0:30:34.000 --> 0:30:36.440
<v Speaker 2>really how real life usually works, right, and it's not

0:30:36.520 --> 0:30:39.440
<v Speaker 2>how art usually works. But we'll start. I'm going to

0:30:39.520 --> 0:30:42.400
<v Speaker 2>tell you the real story, which is much more interesting

0:30:42.520 --> 0:30:47.160
<v Speaker 2>and involves Ralph Bakshi. Uh so, oh god, damn it. Yeah,

0:30:47.200 --> 0:30:50.280
<v Speaker 2>you goddamn right. But first, I'm going to tell the

0:30:50.360 --> 0:30:53.720
<v Speaker 2>version of the story that Thomas Kinkaid, once he becomes

0:30:53.880 --> 0:30:56.120
<v Speaker 2>a business empire, wants everyone to believe.

0:30:56.240 --> 0:30:58.320
<v Speaker 3>Now, I really want one of his pains that Frits

0:30:58.360 --> 0:30:59.840
<v Speaker 3>the cat put in it, so that.

0:31:01.000 --> 0:31:05.320
<v Speaker 2>If only fire and ice put a pin in that one.

0:31:05.560 --> 0:31:09.960
<v Speaker 2>By the way, so Sue describes, first, let's go with

0:31:10.040 --> 0:31:12.440
<v Speaker 2>Thomas's story, because this is what he wants people to believe.

0:31:12.520 --> 0:31:15.880
<v Speaker 2>So Sue Orlean, in her profile for The New Yorker,

0:31:15.920 --> 0:31:18.520
<v Speaker 2>describes how the company he created to tell his art

0:31:18.600 --> 0:31:21.720
<v Speaker 2>tended to tell the story of Thomas's development. From this point,

0:31:22.160 --> 0:31:23.800
<v Speaker 2>it's as good as story as you could hope for.

0:31:23.840 --> 0:31:25.800
<v Speaker 2>If you want to make a point about perseverance and

0:31:25.800 --> 0:31:28.880
<v Speaker 2>pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and appreciating life's bounty.

0:31:29.160 --> 0:31:31.040
<v Speaker 2>Even the bad parts of the story are good because

0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:33.840
<v Speaker 2>it's easier not to begrudge Kincaid his fortune when you

0:31:33.880 --> 0:31:35.880
<v Speaker 2>were reminded that he was a poor kid who had

0:31:35.880 --> 0:31:39.120
<v Speaker 2>to struggle, who rejected the smarty pants liberal establishment to

0:31:39.160 --> 0:31:41.520
<v Speaker 2>follow his heart, and he was proud of having earned

0:31:41.520 --> 0:31:46.000
<v Speaker 2>his way into the ultimate American aristocracy of successful entrepreneurs.

0:31:46.600 --> 0:31:49.400
<v Speaker 2>So basically, he's saying, like, yeah, I had this Christian awakening.

0:31:49.800 --> 0:31:52.120
<v Speaker 2>They wanted me to do all these sad paintings about

0:31:52.120 --> 0:31:55.840
<v Speaker 2>my fears and nightmares and insecurities. But I knew that

0:31:55.920 --> 0:31:58.720
<v Speaker 2>real art, you know, it should uplift people. It should

0:31:58.720 --> 0:32:02.320
<v Speaker 2>be about values, the real classic American values, And I

0:32:02.520 --> 0:32:05.240
<v Speaker 2>broke with the art establishment then at age twenty. That

0:32:05.400 --> 0:32:09.280
<v Speaker 2>is not at all what happens, demonstrably not the actual story.

0:32:10.280 --> 0:32:13.560
<v Speaker 2>So here's the actual story. In the summer of nineteen eighty,

0:32:13.680 --> 0:32:16.360
<v Speaker 2>Thomas Kincaid goes on a road trip with a friend,

0:32:17.080 --> 0:32:21.600
<v Speaker 2>his buddy and fellow artist, James Gurney, and they wind

0:32:21.720 --> 0:32:24.600
<v Speaker 2>up in New York City, where Thomas talks his way

0:32:24.680 --> 0:32:28.280
<v Speaker 2>into getting a book deal with James. They publish a

0:32:28.360 --> 0:32:31.320
<v Speaker 2>Guide to Sketching, which sold very well and is apparently

0:32:31.320 --> 0:32:33.640
<v Speaker 2>a pretty good guide to sketch art. Does the name

0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:35.320
<v Speaker 2>James Gurney mean anything to you?

0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:37.800
<v Speaker 3>Not? Really? No?

0:32:38.040 --> 0:32:40.240
<v Speaker 2>Okay, good, I think you'll recognize his work when we

0:32:40.280 --> 0:32:42.880
<v Speaker 2>get to that point. So this book that he and

0:32:43.000 --> 0:32:44.880
<v Speaker 2>James writes is enough of a hit that it gets

0:32:44.960 --> 0:32:47.239
<v Speaker 2>the attention of one of the country's most talented and

0:32:47.280 --> 0:32:51.280
<v Speaker 2>insane artists, a man named Ralph Bakshi. Now, if you

0:32:51.320 --> 0:32:53.760
<v Speaker 2>have not seen his movies like Fritz the Cat and

0:32:53.800 --> 0:32:56.960
<v Speaker 2>American Pop, Bakshi was a devotee of a type of

0:32:57.000 --> 0:33:01.200
<v Speaker 2>animation called rodoscoping, but he also wrote asks uping involves

0:33:01.240 --> 0:33:04.840
<v Speaker 2>these kind of like weird it's a weird method of

0:33:04.880 --> 0:33:07.680
<v Speaker 2>like filming actual people, but it also measures in with

0:33:07.720 --> 0:33:10.960
<v Speaker 2>traditional animation, which you use for the backgrounds for like

0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:14.160
<v Speaker 2>monsters and stuff. Great great ship.

0:33:14.240 --> 0:33:17.120
<v Speaker 3>You did the first to animate Lord of the Rings movies.

0:33:17.360 --> 0:33:19.920
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, that's that's kind of probably his most well

0:33:19.960 --> 0:33:24.080
<v Speaker 2>known stuff, and it's often like Bakshi style, it's often garish,

0:33:24.160 --> 0:33:27.280
<v Speaker 2>it's often grotesque. There's these distorted people in animals, but

0:33:27.320 --> 0:33:30.520
<v Speaker 2>there's this kind of magnetism to his work. Nonetheless that

0:33:30.800 --> 0:33:32.600
<v Speaker 2>I you know, a lot of people including me, have

0:33:32.640 --> 0:33:36.520
<v Speaker 2>always found like very intriguing. Bakshi saw talent.

0:33:36.640 --> 0:33:37.720
<v Speaker 3>It's a very weird guy.

0:33:37.960 --> 0:33:41.160
<v Speaker 2>He's a very weird guy, but especially Consered.

0:33:41.200 --> 0:33:44.120
<v Speaker 3>His career started in terry tunes like Heckel and Jackyal

0:33:44.600 --> 0:33:48.320
<v Speaker 3>and all that shit, and the nineteen sixties Spider Man

0:33:48.400 --> 0:33:50.880
<v Speaker 3>cartoon no shit, And it went from that to doing

0:33:51.320 --> 0:33:55.640
<v Speaker 3>Fritz Yeah, the Spider Man pointing each other meme. That's

0:33:55.720 --> 0:33:56.880
<v Speaker 3>I believe that's.

0:33:56.720 --> 0:33:59.000
<v Speaker 2>The boxhi, okay, okay. Interesting.

0:33:59.440 --> 0:34:02.480
<v Speaker 3>Then he started doing all his adult cartoons in the seventies,

0:34:02.880 --> 0:34:03.960
<v Speaker 3>in the early eighties.

0:34:04.600 --> 0:34:05.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and then we.

0:34:05.240 --> 0:34:08.719
<v Speaker 3>Got the You Will Never See Again nineteen eighty nine's

0:34:09.120 --> 0:34:12.760
<v Speaker 3>Mighty Mouse cartoon. Yeah, with the cocaine reference.

0:34:13.040 --> 0:34:18.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, Bakshi's blood was about sixty percent cocaine.

0:34:18.520 --> 0:34:20.440
<v Speaker 2>Through the entirety of the nineteen eighties.

0:34:20.760 --> 0:34:22.600
<v Speaker 3>John Chris Belushi was working on that.

0:34:22.640 --> 0:34:26.800
<v Speaker 2>One's for you, Yes, yeah, yeah, that'll be our probably

0:34:26.800 --> 0:34:30.080
<v Speaker 2>maybe our next episode the rin and Stimpy Guy Jesus

0:34:31.120 --> 0:34:33.439
<v Speaker 2>but bok. She sees talent in Thomas and he hires

0:34:33.520 --> 0:34:36.520
<v Speaker 2>him and Gurney to work on his new film nineteen

0:34:36.560 --> 0:34:38.879
<v Speaker 2>eighty threes, Fire and Ice, which you.

0:34:38.880 --> 0:34:40.600
<v Speaker 3>Had just brought up, guess.

0:34:40.760 --> 0:34:43.319
<v Speaker 2>Thomas Kinkaid does a lot of the background art in

0:34:43.360 --> 0:34:45.799
<v Speaker 2>Fire and Ice. A lot of the environment is drawn

0:34:45.840 --> 0:34:48.160
<v Speaker 2>by Kincaid, Yeah, and by Gurney.

0:34:48.239 --> 0:34:48.360
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:34:48.400 --> 0:34:51.080
<v Speaker 2>Gurney does a good amount of that too. And if

0:34:51.080 --> 0:34:53.279
<v Speaker 2>you haven't seen Fire and Ice, folks, I recommend you do.

0:34:53.440 --> 0:34:56.520
<v Speaker 2>It's a great movie. Maybe take some substances first, if

0:34:56.520 --> 0:35:00.000
<v Speaker 2>you're a substance taking kind of person. It's Bruce Flanne

0:35:00.080 --> 0:35:04.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh right, it's Vallejo, Bruce Valleeho, who did like a

0:35:04.000 --> 0:35:08.520
<v Speaker 2>lot of the most iconic Conan art. Sorry, Frank Frizzetta,

0:35:08.880 --> 0:35:12.200
<v Speaker 2>not Bruce Falleo. Yeah, it's Frank Frizetta who did who

0:35:12.239 --> 0:35:16.200
<v Speaker 2>did take a lot of Conan. And it's written by

0:35:16.520 --> 0:35:20.000
<v Speaker 2>a couple of guys who had done Conan, the Barbarian comics. Right,

0:35:20.040 --> 0:35:21.920
<v Speaker 2>So that this movie Fire and Ice is really it's

0:35:21.960 --> 0:35:23.920
<v Speaker 2>one of those, like one of these films that's kind

0:35:23.920 --> 0:35:26.480
<v Speaker 2>of a prism because a lot of different careers break

0:35:26.560 --> 0:35:28.919
<v Speaker 2>out after it. Right, There's a lot of people who

0:35:28.920 --> 0:35:31.040
<v Speaker 2>are going to go on to do very different but

0:35:31.160 --> 0:35:35.000
<v Speaker 2>influential things, who get, you know, part of their start

0:35:35.080 --> 0:35:38.040
<v Speaker 2>from Fire and Ice. So, Bakshi and Frizetta handle the

0:35:38.120 --> 0:35:41.040
<v Speaker 2>live action shots for the action sequences, well, Gurney and

0:35:41.080 --> 0:35:43.600
<v Speaker 2>Kinkaid do a lot of the background paintings, and the

0:35:43.960 --> 0:35:46.799
<v Speaker 2>project gives Thomas a lot of heat credits. In his

0:35:46.840 --> 0:35:49.640
<v Speaker 2>official story, Oh, I had this Christian awakening and it

0:35:49.719 --> 0:35:52.600
<v Speaker 2>convinced me. You know, I'm this painter of light and whatnot.

0:35:52.719 --> 0:35:55.000
<v Speaker 2>But you see in Fire and Ice a lot of

0:35:55.040 --> 0:35:58.439
<v Speaker 2>him playing with fog in the way light affects landscapes.

0:35:58.480 --> 0:36:00.239
<v Speaker 2>But you know, I've got a couple of clip in

0:36:00.320 --> 0:36:04.120
<v Speaker 2>here for you in a way that it is kind

0:36:04.160 --> 0:36:06.320
<v Speaker 2>of like you see a lot of fog in Kincaid's

0:36:06.360 --> 0:36:08.239
<v Speaker 2>later paintings. You see a lot of the same kind

0:36:08.239 --> 0:36:11.120
<v Speaker 2>of use of light. Like it's not really surprising when

0:36:11.200 --> 0:36:11.959
<v Speaker 2>you know this case.

0:36:12.320 --> 0:36:15.000
<v Speaker 3>It's the backgrounds are stunning. I remember that the movie.

0:36:15.440 --> 0:36:19.839
<v Speaker 2>He's very beautiful film. Yeah, and again, Fire and Ice

0:36:19.920 --> 0:36:21.960
<v Speaker 2>is one of these quietly influential films where a lot

0:36:22.000 --> 0:36:24.200
<v Speaker 2>of people who made shit you love got their start.

0:36:24.560 --> 0:36:27.640
<v Speaker 2>Thomas's friend, James Gurney, his co author, goes on from

0:36:27.680 --> 0:36:31.520
<v Speaker 2>this project to create, write, and illustrate the Dinotopia series.

0:36:31.600 --> 0:36:35.480
<v Speaker 2>That's who Gurny is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's James Garny, right,

0:36:35.520 --> 0:36:37.520
<v Speaker 2>who I was a big fan of that as a kid. Right.

0:36:38.040 --> 0:36:41.439
<v Speaker 2>The layout artist for Fire and Light Ice was Peter Chung,

0:36:41.520 --> 0:36:46.360
<v Speaker 2>who later created a on Flux. Okay, yeah, yeah, Roy Thomas,

0:36:46.400 --> 0:36:49.280
<v Speaker 2>one of the writers created the character vision for Marvel

0:36:49.360 --> 0:36:52.040
<v Speaker 2>as well as ghost Writer and fucking Morbius.

0:36:54.160 --> 0:36:57.719
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, Like, that's a lot of talent in

0:36:57.760 --> 0:36:58.360
<v Speaker 3>one film.

0:36:58.719 --> 0:37:00.320
<v Speaker 2>It really is.

0:37:00.320 --> 0:37:00.400
<v Speaker 1>Is.

0:37:01.320 --> 0:37:04.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we were this close to getting u Oh, what's that?

0:37:04.600 --> 0:37:07.320
<v Speaker 2>What's that creepy sex criminal who's in the Morbius movie?

0:37:07.320 --> 0:37:08.439
<v Speaker 2>I'm spacing on his name?

0:37:08.640 --> 0:37:09.920
<v Speaker 3>Oh, Letto Jared Leto.

0:37:10.080 --> 0:37:12.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we were this close to getting Jared Leto played

0:37:12.120 --> 0:37:14.279
<v Speaker 2>Thomas Kincaid in a movie. You know, there's still time.

0:37:14.320 --> 0:37:16.600
<v Speaker 2>There's still time Letto to.

0:37:16.560 --> 0:37:19.040
<v Speaker 1>Be doing that weird cold thing that he does.

0:37:19.560 --> 0:37:19.719
<v Speaker 3>Oh.

0:37:19.800 --> 0:37:23.160
<v Speaker 2>Also, the other co writer of Fire and Ice, Jerry Conway,

0:37:23.200 --> 0:37:26.239
<v Speaker 2>co created Killer Crock. So you know, again, a lot

0:37:26.239 --> 0:37:29.520
<v Speaker 2>of influential people in this movie. Yes, a lot of

0:37:29.600 --> 0:37:32.240
<v Speaker 2>load bearing parts of the culture come out of Fire

0:37:32.280 --> 0:37:32.680
<v Speaker 2>and Ice.

0:37:34.800 --> 0:37:36.279
<v Speaker 3>Plains it's a good movie, I guess.

0:37:36.400 --> 0:37:40.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's great, fucking awesome movie. Yes. So, on one hand,

0:37:40.400 --> 0:37:42.400
<v Speaker 2>Fire and iceed artists gave us a whole host of

0:37:42.440 --> 0:37:46.160
<v Speaker 2>Marvel characters, several of whom have movies Dinotopia and aon Flux.

0:37:46.320 --> 0:37:49.239
<v Speaker 2>And on the other hand, we have Thomas Kincaid, a

0:37:49.280 --> 0:37:51.719
<v Speaker 2>man who twenty years later would be declared by a

0:37:51.760 --> 0:37:55.239
<v Speaker 2>Salon writer, the George W. Bush of art. This is

0:37:55.280 --> 0:37:58.319
<v Speaker 2>before George W. Bush became the George W. Bush of art.

0:38:01.920 --> 0:38:05.080
<v Speaker 3>That's kind of hurt a little bit too.

0:38:07.280 --> 0:38:11.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, poor George W. Bush the most the greatest suffering

0:38:11.320 --> 0:38:12.040
<v Speaker 2>artist today.

0:38:13.719 --> 0:38:16.800
<v Speaker 3>Truly, yea, truly, no one has ever suffered more.

0:38:17.080 --> 0:38:19.400
<v Speaker 2>It would be really funny if he had, like a

0:38:19.560 --> 0:38:22.080
<v Speaker 2>if he'd gone like all full Warhol on it, Like

0:38:22.120 --> 0:38:24.800
<v Speaker 2>if George W. Bush were throwing these big warehouse parties

0:38:24.840 --> 0:38:27.920
<v Speaker 2>in New York and like like like literally just like

0:38:28.000 --> 0:38:32.160
<v Speaker 2>shooting up ketamine into his veins. That's the George Bush

0:38:32.200 --> 0:38:34.799
<v Speaker 2>we all deserve to get and steadies just rich and

0:38:34.840 --> 0:38:39.600
<v Speaker 2>lives in Dallas. So this version of the story, the

0:38:39.640 --> 0:38:42.680
<v Speaker 2>one where you know, Thomas Kincaid gets his big break

0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:45.160
<v Speaker 2>on a massive animated production and he comes right away

0:38:45.160 --> 0:38:47.720
<v Speaker 2>from it changed. I think that's more the real story

0:38:47.760 --> 0:38:51.439
<v Speaker 2>than the sudden Christian awakening thing. After Fire and Ice,

0:38:51.480 --> 0:38:54.319
<v Speaker 2>he starts working a lot more with light and landscapes

0:38:54.360 --> 0:38:56.680
<v Speaker 2>and fog and mist, and he warps his style from

0:38:56.719 --> 0:39:00.239
<v Speaker 2>a sort of restrained realism to this more fantastic and

0:39:00.360 --> 0:39:03.560
<v Speaker 2>surreal look. Now, Thomas likes the art he's making, but

0:39:03.600 --> 0:39:06.680
<v Speaker 2>it isn't really selling because people don't really buy a

0:39:06.680 --> 0:39:09.200
<v Speaker 2>lot of art, you know, like not enough that he

0:39:09.239 --> 0:39:11.759
<v Speaker 2>can live the kind of life that he wants to live. Right,

0:39:12.360 --> 0:39:13.640
<v Speaker 2>he probably, of.

0:39:13.560 --> 0:39:16.880
<v Speaker 3>All the paintings I have sold, I've sold more prints

0:39:16.880 --> 0:39:20.600
<v Speaker 3>than I've ever sold a paintings. Yes, well, it's definitely

0:39:20.640 --> 0:39:23.360
<v Speaker 3>made more money off Prince than Nasal originals, you know.

0:39:23.440 --> 0:39:25.560
<v Speaker 2>To be honest, Kincaid may be part of why the

0:39:25.600 --> 0:39:28.239
<v Speaker 2>business does work that way, or at least, you know,

0:39:28.280 --> 0:39:30.440
<v Speaker 2>maybe he's just it's probably more accurate to say he

0:39:30.520 --> 0:39:33.080
<v Speaker 2>realized that and figured out how to do it at

0:39:33.120 --> 0:39:36.680
<v Speaker 2>scale very quickly. So Thomas he might have been able

0:39:36.680 --> 0:39:38.440
<v Speaker 2>to make a place in the art world for himself

0:39:38.520 --> 0:39:41.400
<v Speaker 2>or in Hollywood for himself given enough time. But he

0:39:41.480 --> 0:39:43.719
<v Speaker 2>understood number one that like that kind of work was

0:39:43.760 --> 0:39:46.960
<v Speaker 2>never going to be regular enough or profitable enough for

0:39:47.040 --> 0:39:48.960
<v Speaker 2>him to get the kind of rich that he wanted

0:39:49.000 --> 0:39:51.800
<v Speaker 2>to be as a former poor kid. And he also

0:39:51.880 --> 0:39:54.360
<v Speaker 2>is aware as he starts trying to sell and display

0:39:54.400 --> 0:39:57.319
<v Speaker 2>his art that like critics don't like it. They think

0:39:57.360 --> 0:40:00.839
<v Speaker 2>that it looks either like chloyingly or on the more

0:40:00.880 --> 0:40:04.319
<v Speaker 2>fantastic side, like something you'd see in a conan comic, right,

0:40:04.680 --> 0:40:07.160
<v Speaker 2>and that's not something like art critics are going to

0:40:07.200 --> 0:40:09.000
<v Speaker 2>be bullish A No, they do.

0:40:09.000 --> 0:40:12.719
<v Speaker 3>Not like that. It's yeah, definitely the least favorite thing

0:40:12.760 --> 0:40:13.480
<v Speaker 3>to come across.

0:40:13.719 --> 0:40:15.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you know they're co bad guys in this.

0:40:15.880 --> 0:40:18.680
<v Speaker 2>I I try to there's criticism. I will try to

0:40:18.680 --> 0:40:20.920
<v Speaker 2>repeat the criticism of Kincaid that I think is good

0:40:21.239 --> 0:40:24.080
<v Speaker 2>and not just the stuff that's like clearly some guy

0:40:24.200 --> 0:40:29.120
<v Speaker 2>who wishes that like he were still huffing Andy Warhol's

0:40:29.160 --> 0:40:29.960
<v Speaker 2>fucking few.

0:40:30.080 --> 0:40:32.680
<v Speaker 3>Yes, there are definitely a lot of art critics who

0:40:33.080 --> 0:40:36.200
<v Speaker 3>if you mentioned landscape, it's just immediately those two hatred.

0:40:36.280 --> 0:40:37.680
<v Speaker 3>Like it's like a switch.

0:40:38.000 --> 0:40:40.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's them. Yeah, same with same.

0:40:40.560 --> 0:40:42.520
<v Speaker 3>With certain mediums. Like if you tell certain like oh

0:40:42.520 --> 0:40:44.960
<v Speaker 3>I do water cooler, they're like, oh, okay, see paint flowers.

0:40:45.239 --> 0:40:48.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah no. Well, and you know, I wonder if, because

0:40:48.680 --> 0:40:50.720
<v Speaker 2>we just talked about how there is some interesting stuff

0:40:50.760 --> 0:40:54.399
<v Speaker 2>being done by people who modify Concaid paintings, I wonder

0:40:54.440 --> 0:40:56.480
<v Speaker 2>if part of like the message there and the message

0:40:56.520 --> 0:40:58.160
<v Speaker 2>with Fire and Ice, is that this was never a

0:40:58.160 --> 0:41:01.000
<v Speaker 2>man whose work should have existed on it right, like

0:41:01.040 --> 0:41:04.120
<v Speaker 2>he could he could be part of good things when

0:41:04.400 --> 0:41:06.359
<v Speaker 2>he was a part of it, right when people were

0:41:06.400 --> 0:41:09.160
<v Speaker 2>like using his backgrounds and adding and putting things on them.

0:41:09.160 --> 0:41:11.319
<v Speaker 2>There was like a way in wait, like he was

0:41:11.320 --> 0:41:14.759
<v Speaker 2>actually part of some interesting art. But on his own,

0:41:15.000 --> 0:41:18.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, that's just not not a lot there anyway.

0:41:19.239 --> 0:41:21.719
<v Speaker 2>He gets kind of enraged at an early age that

0:41:21.760 --> 0:41:26.000
<v Speaker 2>his art is dismissed by these critics, and Kincaid himself

0:41:26.000 --> 0:41:29.040
<v Speaker 2>would always insist that, like because a big one of

0:41:29.040 --> 0:41:31.840
<v Speaker 2>the big criticisms he'll get is that his stuff is

0:41:31.920 --> 0:41:35.400
<v Speaker 2>just too pleasant, right, there's no no emotion behind it,

0:41:35.440 --> 0:41:39.480
<v Speaker 2>there's nothing complex behind it. And can Kaid's develops this

0:41:39.560 --> 0:41:43.359
<v Speaker 2>attitude that, well, art shouldn't be about complex emotions or pain.

0:41:43.920 --> 0:41:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Art exists to make people feel good, and if it

0:41:46.480 --> 0:41:48.719
<v Speaker 2>doesn't make people feel good, then it's not good art.

0:41:49.120 --> 0:41:51.759
<v Speaker 2>He later wrote, every element in my paintings, from the

0:41:51.760 --> 0:41:53.759
<v Speaker 2>patch of sun and the foreground to the mists on

0:41:53.800 --> 0:41:56.399
<v Speaker 2>a distant horizon, is an effort to summon back those

0:41:56.440 --> 0:41:59.080
<v Speaker 2>perfect moments that hang in our minds as pictures of harmony.

0:41:59.320 --> 0:42:02.280
<v Speaker 2>My deepest is that my work will help people despire

0:42:02.360 --> 0:42:06.239
<v Speaker 2>to the life those kinds of images evoke, And I

0:42:06.280 --> 0:42:08.239
<v Speaker 2>do think a valid criticism is that, like, Yeah, if

0:42:08.239 --> 0:42:11.680
<v Speaker 2>you're focused on your art only making people feel good, well,

0:42:11.680 --> 0:42:15.520
<v Speaker 2>that's not really very complicated or interesting art to a

0:42:15.560 --> 0:42:16.120
<v Speaker 2>lot of people.

0:42:16.480 --> 0:42:19.440
<v Speaker 3>I know, I don't disagree with them. I think that

0:42:19.480 --> 0:42:22.200
<v Speaker 3>there's a validity to this is just starting to make

0:42:22.239 --> 0:42:25.000
<v Speaker 3>you happy. Yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with that.

0:42:26.120 --> 0:42:28.960
<v Speaker 3>I do think I disagree with them that all art

0:42:29.000 --> 0:42:31.600
<v Speaker 3>has to make you feel good, because my brain went

0:42:31.680 --> 0:42:36.360
<v Speaker 3>to various Norman Rockwell paintings that were about integration. They're

0:42:36.480 --> 0:42:41.239
<v Speaker 3>very horrific images, or the one about them three pro

0:42:41.320 --> 0:42:45.120
<v Speaker 3>right civil rights activists who are murdered, painting about them,

0:42:45.719 --> 0:42:49.200
<v Speaker 3>and like, that didn't make me feel good, but damn

0:42:49.239 --> 0:42:51.360
<v Speaker 3>it was a hell of a painting and it really

0:42:51.360 --> 0:42:54.080
<v Speaker 3>did evoke his rage at what happened to these young men.

0:42:54.719 --> 0:42:57.440
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's a great comparison to make, because

0:42:57.520 --> 0:43:02.480
<v Speaker 2>Norman Rockwell is a guy who gets compared to Kincaid

0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:06.080
<v Speaker 2>a lot, and there are some similarities in there's a

0:43:06.120 --> 0:43:08.960
<v Speaker 2>lot of kind of fifties small town vibe aesthetics to

0:43:09.080 --> 0:43:14.520
<v Speaker 2>both guys. But Rockwell was always very willing to make

0:43:14.719 --> 0:43:17.480
<v Speaker 2>art that made a political point and that had emotion

0:43:17.680 --> 0:43:20.239
<v Speaker 2>behind it, and that was trying to say something, And

0:43:20.320 --> 0:43:22.440
<v Speaker 2>the only thing Kincaid stuff has ever said is like,

0:43:23.160 --> 0:43:25.600
<v Speaker 2>isn't it nice to be at home in your small town?

0:43:25.880 --> 0:43:28.520
<v Speaker 2>Aren't cabins great? You know, here's a sunset.

0:43:29.200 --> 0:43:31.640
<v Speaker 3>People tend to dismiss Rockwell's like, oh, like for cute

0:43:31.719 --> 0:43:33.840
<v Speaker 3>kitchen stuff and he did da but like he did

0:43:33.920 --> 0:43:37.400
<v Speaker 3>do angrier paintings and talked about like yeah, well, I

0:43:37.400 --> 0:43:39.560
<v Speaker 3>mean he did paintings for the Saturday ning posts, so

0:43:39.560 --> 0:43:42.040
<v Speaker 3>the love of them had to be about modern current events.

0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:44.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's kind of a good

0:43:44.600 --> 0:43:47.239
<v Speaker 2>way to sort of divide the two men for folks

0:43:47.239 --> 0:43:50.240
<v Speaker 2>who maybe aren't as familiar with their uvras. Is Kincaid

0:43:50.440 --> 0:43:53.080
<v Speaker 2>is kind of violently against the idea that his art

0:43:53.080 --> 0:43:57.359
<v Speaker 2>should mean anything but comfort, and Rockwell was somebody who

0:43:57.440 --> 0:43:59.560
<v Speaker 2>felt that art could make a point and could make

0:43:59.600 --> 0:44:06.920
<v Speaker 2>people think and feel critically about things. Yeah, So Thomas Kinkaid,

0:44:07.040 --> 0:44:09.160
<v Speaker 2>the kind of what we're building to here is with

0:44:09.239 --> 0:44:11.840
<v Speaker 2>this this he's kind of discreet. He has his brush

0:44:11.880 --> 0:44:14.719
<v Speaker 2>with Hollywood, but it doesn't really take He gets disgruntled,

0:44:14.800 --> 0:44:18.440
<v Speaker 2>critics don't like his work. It's not selling, And you know,

0:44:18.640 --> 0:44:20.719
<v Speaker 2>it's kind of interesting to me that from all of this,

0:44:20.800 --> 0:44:24.000
<v Speaker 2>he comes to a series of understandings and it kind

0:44:24.040 --> 0:44:26.680
<v Speaker 2>of he kind of becomes the first man to understand

0:44:27.160 --> 0:44:31.600
<v Speaker 2>and provide the underpinnings of what is now the most

0:44:31.719 --> 0:44:35.200
<v Speaker 2>viral kind of art in our culture, the stuff that

0:44:35.239 --> 0:44:38.080
<v Speaker 2>we now call Facebook AI boomer art. If you go

0:44:38.120 --> 0:44:40.880
<v Speaker 2>on Facebook today, you'll get pages and pages of obvious

0:44:40.960 --> 0:44:43.719
<v Speaker 2>AI art filled with comments from an even mix of

0:44:43.719 --> 0:44:45.759
<v Speaker 2>old people in bots saying how happy it made them.

0:44:46.120 --> 0:44:49.400
<v Speaker 2>Thomas Kinkaid is the first guy to realize that this

0:44:49.480 --> 0:44:51.520
<v Speaker 2>is going to be a thing and figure out how

0:44:51.560 --> 0:44:54.479
<v Speaker 2>to monetize on it before the internet's really a thing,

0:44:54.880 --> 0:44:58.719
<v Speaker 2>before AI certainly is a thing, Like you get. I'm

0:44:58.760 --> 0:45:01.600
<v Speaker 2>showing you a couple examples like this obviously fake baby

0:45:01.600 --> 0:45:04.480
<v Speaker 2>and little dog. This made me smile so sweet. You

0:45:04.480 --> 0:45:08.000
<v Speaker 2>know this soldier, no one is thanking me, is thinking,

0:45:08.400 --> 0:45:12.200
<v Speaker 2>no one thank is for service. Uh yeah, there's a

0:45:12.239 --> 0:45:16.200
<v Speaker 2>crying soldier saluted with his back turns to an American family.

0:45:16.440 --> 0:45:20.680
<v Speaker 2>There's a baby crying. It's like a little deranged baby.

0:45:20.920 --> 0:45:22.520
<v Speaker 3>Is like, there's not a steering wheel.

0:45:23.880 --> 0:45:26.799
<v Speaker 2>It's it's it's very it's a deranged piece of art.

0:45:27.160 --> 0:45:30.120
<v Speaker 2>And you know, kincaid stuff was always a lot simpler

0:45:30.160 --> 0:45:32.040
<v Speaker 2>than this. But it's the you know, you get this

0:45:32.120 --> 0:45:35.400
<v Speaker 2>sort of like here's a sad soldier saluting it a flag,

0:45:35.600 --> 0:45:39.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, walking home. It's always vaguely patriotic, but without

0:45:39.880 --> 0:45:45.680
<v Speaker 2>like yeah I scrolled, Yeah yeah, I'm building to like

0:45:45.800 --> 0:45:48.759
<v Speaker 2>kincaid stuff and all of this weird Ai boomera. It's

0:45:48.800 --> 0:45:57.879
<v Speaker 2>all stuff that's vaguely patriotic. It's usually paired with texts Jesus. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:45:58.080 --> 0:46:00.840
<v Speaker 2>it's got cat ears in the last but phoo, but

0:46:00.920 --> 0:46:03.480
<v Speaker 2>you almost you see. The kind of shine to them

0:46:03.520 --> 0:46:06.719
<v Speaker 2>reminds me a lot of Kincaid's stuff too, like, and

0:46:06.800 --> 0:46:08.520
<v Speaker 2>I wonder if that's just that there's so much of

0:46:08.560 --> 0:46:10.920
<v Speaker 2>his DNA and all of these models.

0:46:11.160 --> 0:46:15.560
<v Speaker 1>I like the one with the baby, Yeah baby, they're

0:46:15.600 --> 0:46:18.080
<v Speaker 1>all the ones with the baby. Yes, but the one

0:46:18.080 --> 0:46:21.600
<v Speaker 1>with the baby with Jesus and the baby have one

0:46:21.640 --> 0:46:25.000
<v Speaker 1>hand and they're taking a selfie because babies can hold

0:46:25.080 --> 0:46:25.919
<v Speaker 1>things like that.

0:46:26.680 --> 0:46:30.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Jesus has a Lenovo's smartphone from twenty sixteen.

0:46:30.760 --> 0:46:33.840
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I desperately want to photoshop and nail into that

0:46:33.960 --> 0:46:34.760
<v Speaker 3>Jesus wrist.

0:46:35.200 --> 0:46:39.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't know why, where's the sting on fucking AI.

0:46:40.160 --> 0:46:41.400
<v Speaker 1>The kiss is unsettling.

0:46:42.560 --> 0:46:46.319
<v Speaker 2>It's all unsettling. Yeah, it all shares for the same

0:46:46.360 --> 0:46:49.960
<v Speaker 2>reason that Thomas's stuff was popular, which is that you

0:46:50.040 --> 0:46:52.040
<v Speaker 2>get these kind of when there is a message, it's

0:46:52.120 --> 0:46:56.239
<v Speaker 2>usually a very vague level of like conservative grievance, you know,

0:46:56.360 --> 0:46:58.960
<v Speaker 2>over the state of the world. But mostly it's either

0:46:59.040 --> 0:47:01.200
<v Speaker 2>stuff that makes you feel good or stuff that makes

0:47:01.200 --> 0:47:05.400
<v Speaker 2>you feel nostalgic and doesn't really have anything else going

0:47:05.440 --> 0:47:07.840
<v Speaker 2>for it. And he recognized that like this is something

0:47:09.320 --> 0:47:13.360
<v Speaker 2>just as like this stuff has absolutely dominated people's Facebook walls,

0:47:13.360 --> 0:47:17.520
<v Speaker 2>boomer Facebook walls, his art dominated the literal walls in

0:47:17.600 --> 0:47:21.520
<v Speaker 2>their house, right, Like there's a connection between these two things,

0:47:21.560 --> 0:47:24.920
<v Speaker 2>between the kind of AI slop that goes viral, and

0:47:25.000 --> 0:47:28.400
<v Speaker 2>between Thomas Kinkaid and the way he used light and

0:47:28.480 --> 0:47:31.000
<v Speaker 2>color and the kinds of things he picks his subjects

0:47:31.120 --> 0:47:34.080
<v Speaker 2>for his art. This sort of like cozy scenes of

0:47:34.120 --> 0:47:37.960
<v Speaker 2>American and family life with incoherent patriotism and off putting

0:47:38.040 --> 0:47:42.520
<v Speaker 2>hyper commercialized Christianity. Right, all of that stuff together is

0:47:42.600 --> 0:47:48.040
<v Speaker 2>Thomas Kinkaid, and he is he sees how much potential

0:47:48.200 --> 0:47:50.400
<v Speaker 2>there is in this, right that the real way to

0:47:50.400 --> 0:47:52.640
<v Speaker 2>make a lot of money isn't in making art that

0:47:52.680 --> 0:47:54.719
<v Speaker 2>you're trying to impress critics with or sell to some

0:47:54.840 --> 0:47:57.799
<v Speaker 2>rich guy. It's making stuff like this that you can

0:47:57.840 --> 0:48:00.480
<v Speaker 2>tug at whatever it is in the brain of these

0:48:00.520 --> 0:48:04.160
<v Speaker 2>conservative boomers and make fucking all of the money on Earth.

0:48:05.760 --> 0:48:08.440
<v Speaker 2>And I can't stop myself because as soon as I

0:48:08.440 --> 0:48:11.680
<v Speaker 2>started really digging into more Kincaid's work, I started thinking

0:48:11.719 --> 0:48:14.160
<v Speaker 2>about all of this AI shit that every time I

0:48:14.160 --> 0:48:17.080
<v Speaker 2>hop onto Facebook to get in you know, get in

0:48:17.120 --> 0:48:19.359
<v Speaker 2>touch with a family member or something that i'ven't seen

0:48:19.400 --> 0:48:21.680
<v Speaker 2>in ten years, I see a bunch of this shit.

0:48:21.760 --> 0:48:24.600
<v Speaker 2>I see endless seas of this shit, and so I

0:48:24.640 --> 0:48:27.439
<v Speaker 2>am kind of I'm going to kind of repeatedly make

0:48:27.560 --> 0:48:30.120
<v Speaker 2>reference to it, and I think it's worth looking into

0:48:30.880 --> 0:48:33.640
<v Speaker 2>when we kind of compare to Thomas saying I think

0:48:33.680 --> 0:48:37.080
<v Speaker 2>that my art should be about making people feel good.

0:48:37.120 --> 0:48:39.680
<v Speaker 2>That that's all that you know, it really matters, right,

0:48:39.719 --> 0:48:43.160
<v Speaker 2>I don't want any more complex than that. That's exactly

0:48:43.239 --> 0:48:45.799
<v Speaker 2>what's going on with the actual human beings who are

0:48:45.840 --> 0:48:48.880
<v Speaker 2>generating this AI art right. Four oh four Media has

0:48:48.920 --> 0:48:51.239
<v Speaker 2>done some really good reporting on the origins of these

0:48:51.239 --> 0:48:53.959
<v Speaker 2>baffling viral images, and a huge number of them seem

0:48:54.000 --> 0:48:57.640
<v Speaker 2>to originate from India. They're spread via copy pasted prompts

0:48:57.640 --> 0:49:00.719
<v Speaker 2>and telegram groups and are often a little incoherent because

0:49:00.800 --> 0:49:04.440
<v Speaker 2>authors will run the prompts through text to speech in Hindi.

0:49:04.640 --> 0:49:08.000
<v Speaker 2>That's why a lot of like the language doesn't quite work.

0:49:08.760 --> 0:49:11.520
<v Speaker 2>And there are even influencers who will like teach people

0:49:11.600 --> 0:49:14.359
<v Speaker 2>how to put together viral prompts for money, and their

0:49:14.440 --> 0:49:19.040
<v Speaker 2>explanations of what images work and why are very kincadie. Right,

0:49:19.800 --> 0:49:22.000
<v Speaker 2>here's one quote from one of these guys. Photos of

0:49:22.040 --> 0:49:25.640
<v Speaker 2>poor people are good. Anything that touches the heart, Cute babies, children,

0:49:25.960 --> 0:49:28.359
<v Speaker 2>This is getting us a lot of good engagement people

0:49:28.440 --> 0:49:30.399
<v Speaker 2>in the US and in foreign countries. They love their

0:49:30.400 --> 0:49:32.759
<v Speaker 2>pets and other animals. There are many pet lovers who

0:49:32.840 --> 0:49:35.480
<v Speaker 2>live there. Right, It's just all of this stuff that

0:49:35.520 --> 0:49:39.040
<v Speaker 2>gives you these kind of vague good vibes feelings. Right.

0:49:39.640 --> 0:49:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Thomas Kinkaid is the proof of concept for how much

0:49:43.040 --> 0:49:45.360
<v Speaker 2>money there is in this sort of thing. That's why

0:49:45.440 --> 0:49:47.680
<v Speaker 2>all of the that's why there's this cottage industry and

0:49:47.760 --> 0:49:49.000
<v Speaker 2>generating shit like this.

0:49:49.480 --> 0:49:54.759
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, cottage industry. Out's a good for His paintings is amazing. Yeah,

0:49:55.080 --> 0:49:56.880
<v Speaker 3>I mean also, I think part of it is, like

0:49:57.600 --> 0:49:59.319
<v Speaker 3>it doesn't just makes you feel good, it ma should

0:49:59.320 --> 0:50:02.040
<v Speaker 3>feel safe. He touched a hole. How many was have

0:50:02.280 --> 0:50:05.680
<v Speaker 3>like older relatives a post like pictures of remember back

0:50:05.719 --> 0:50:08.279
<v Speaker 3>when you knew things were okay and you can leave

0:50:08.320 --> 0:50:11.600
<v Speaker 3>your door unlocked yeh, Like hey, no I don't, and

0:50:11.719 --> 0:50:14.719
<v Speaker 3>like yes, experience about that, Like no, we always locked

0:50:14.719 --> 0:50:17.000
<v Speaker 3>our doors. Yeah, like my dad lived out in the

0:50:17.000 --> 0:50:19.680
<v Speaker 3>middle of nowhere, Arkansas, Like we still locked our doors,

0:50:19.719 --> 0:50:20.440
<v Speaker 3>didn't trust people.

0:50:20.440 --> 0:50:26.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, fucking blood came out when you know, Like, yeah.

0:50:25.760 --> 0:50:28.720
<v Speaker 3>It's definitely it. Hearkened to that whole, like the rose

0:50:28.760 --> 0:50:33.080
<v Speaker 3>tinted glass view that I'm beginning to seeing algen xers

0:50:33.239 --> 0:50:36.080
<v Speaker 3>start also throwing out there, like oh, back when we

0:50:36.200 --> 0:50:38.399
<v Speaker 3>drink out of the water hose and our parents lists

0:50:38.400 --> 0:50:40.760
<v Speaker 3>played the sunset, Like yeah, that wasn't great.

0:50:41.120 --> 0:50:43.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah you were just a child, but it wasn't like

0:50:43.560 --> 0:50:46.600
<v Speaker 2>a better time, but that that feeling that we didn't

0:50:46.680 --> 0:50:49.759
<v Speaker 2>used to have to lock our doors, Like Kincaid in

0:50:49.920 --> 0:50:53.839
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety bottles that feeling right and finds a way

0:50:53.920 --> 0:50:56.920
<v Speaker 2>to sell it back to people at scale, right, and

0:50:56.960 --> 0:50:59.160
<v Speaker 2>that is kind that is the source of his wealth.

0:50:59.520 --> 0:51:03.200
<v Speaker 2>Speaking of selling things. Robert, Yeah, speaking of the source

0:51:03.239 --> 0:51:12.960
<v Speaker 2>of our wealth. Here's some advertisers. Ah, and we're back

0:51:14.160 --> 0:51:20.239
<v Speaker 2>so highwave patrol. Obviously, Thomas Kinkaid did not foresee AI art.

0:51:20.520 --> 0:51:22.920
<v Speaker 2>He was not trying to lead us there, but his

0:51:23.080 --> 0:51:26.200
<v Speaker 2>instincts kind of made it very clear how much money

0:51:26.239 --> 0:51:28.600
<v Speaker 2>there is in pushing out this slop. So he is

0:51:28.680 --> 0:51:31.719
<v Speaker 2>I think he counts as a granddaddy to this. And

0:51:31.840 --> 0:51:33.479
<v Speaker 2>I want to read a quote from The Daily Beast

0:51:33.600 --> 0:51:35.879
<v Speaker 2>kind of talking about how he thought of his art.

0:51:36.760 --> 0:51:39.520
<v Speaker 2>Kincaid thought the art world had become detached from the public,

0:51:39.560 --> 0:51:41.600
<v Speaker 2>and he saw himself as the person to return it

0:51:41.640 --> 0:51:45.680
<v Speaker 2>to an artist's servant model, where painters affirmed rather than challenged,

0:51:45.719 --> 0:51:48.959
<v Speaker 2>social values. His hero was Andy Warhol, who he felt

0:51:49.040 --> 0:51:52.360
<v Speaker 2>had rescued art from insolarrity and and infused it with

0:51:52.560 --> 0:51:56.279
<v Speaker 2>iconography that meant something to ordinary people. What Warhol did

0:51:56.280 --> 0:51:58.799
<v Speaker 2>with soup cans and Marilyn Monroe, Kincaid thought he could

0:51:58.840 --> 0:52:03.239
<v Speaker 2>do with Eden inspired garden scenes and Cotswold cottages. And

0:52:03.360 --> 0:52:06.000
<v Speaker 2>that's wild to me that he's like listing Warhol as

0:52:06.040 --> 0:52:09.120
<v Speaker 2>an influence, because I think Andy Warhol would be deeply,

0:52:09.280 --> 0:52:12.640
<v Speaker 2>deeply disturbed by that fact, which I'm.

0:52:12.520 --> 0:52:17.560
<v Speaker 3>Fine, Yeah, Liten, like I see Liechtenstein appreciating it because

0:52:17.600 --> 0:52:23.080
<v Speaker 3>he was all about the industrial system for art. But yeah, Warhol,

0:52:24.719 --> 0:52:28.440
<v Speaker 3>I don't know, like the guy who did the a

0:52:28.480 --> 0:52:31.200
<v Speaker 3>movie that got him shot.

0:52:32.239 --> 0:52:37.640
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah he did? Oh Andy?

0:52:37.760 --> 0:52:40.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, good job Andy.

0:52:39.960 --> 0:52:43.680
<v Speaker 2>Great guy. So by nineteen eighty nine, Thomas Kincaid is married,

0:52:43.719 --> 0:52:45.520
<v Speaker 2>he's starting a family, and he can't get by on

0:52:45.600 --> 0:52:48.200
<v Speaker 2>piece work and the very occasional sale of a painting.

0:52:48.239 --> 0:52:50.680
<v Speaker 2>So he reaches out. He has this idea, I want

0:52:50.680 --> 0:52:55.000
<v Speaker 2>to sell prints of my my, you know, cloying paintings

0:52:55.200 --> 0:52:57.839
<v Speaker 2>to a mass middle American audience. And he reaches out

0:52:57.840 --> 0:53:01.200
<v Speaker 2>to this guy kN Rash, a California entrepreneur, and he's like, hey,

0:53:01.480 --> 0:53:04.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm already selling five grand in prints every month, and

0:53:04.480 --> 0:53:06.480
<v Speaker 2>I think with some capital behind me, I could start

0:53:06.520 --> 0:53:09.719
<v Speaker 2>a real business. Now this is fraud. He's committing fraud

0:53:09.760 --> 0:53:12.880
<v Speaker 2>here because his actual sales are closer to zero dollars.

0:53:14.080 --> 0:53:17.400
<v Speaker 2>But Rash, I'm not sure if just gets lucky or

0:53:17.440 --> 0:53:20.239
<v Speaker 2>if he's got some sort of entrepreneur brain and he

0:53:20.280 --> 0:53:23.360
<v Speaker 2>sees the potential. But he gives Thomas thirty five thousand

0:53:23.400 --> 0:53:24.920
<v Speaker 2>dollars its startup capital.

0:53:25.480 --> 0:53:26.040
<v Speaker 3>Jesus.

0:53:26.560 --> 0:53:28.600
<v Speaker 2>Now, this is a story that should end in a

0:53:28.680 --> 0:53:31.719
<v Speaker 2>series of lawsuits and Thomas fleeing the country. But to

0:53:31.880 --> 0:53:36.320
<v Speaker 2>everyone's surprise, but theirs, this works. This is a great investment.

0:53:36.440 --> 0:53:39.040
<v Speaker 2>The fact that Thomas hes does launch a con to

0:53:39.080 --> 0:53:41.560
<v Speaker 2>start it does not harm the business in any way.

0:53:41.760 --> 0:53:48.760
<v Speaker 2>It shoots off like a rocket. Some of this oh yeah, yeah,

0:53:49.360 --> 0:53:51.600
<v Speaker 2>I started a con and it worked is the origin

0:53:51.600 --> 0:53:56.560
<v Speaker 2>of almost every fortune. Oh of course, no, yes, absolutely, yes,

0:53:56.600 --> 0:54:01.239
<v Speaker 2>he's he's a he's a hardcore conservative. Yes. Now, some

0:54:01.520 --> 0:54:05.120
<v Speaker 2>of this business had to do with Kincaid's personal allure, right,

0:54:05.160 --> 0:54:07.879
<v Speaker 2>that's part of why this works. He is a charismatic guy.

0:54:08.360 --> 0:54:09.280
<v Speaker 2>He's good at.

0:54:09.120 --> 0:54:10.960
<v Speaker 3>Such Again, I remember that picture of him with a

0:54:11.000 --> 0:54:12.879
<v Speaker 3>fucking mullet, I mean, not a lore.

0:54:13.640 --> 0:54:14.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I would pull.

0:54:14.600 --> 0:54:17.640
<v Speaker 3>My child away from this man on the street. I don't.

0:54:18.080 --> 0:54:21.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but you're not. It's that there's this weird revival

0:54:21.120 --> 0:54:24.840
<v Speaker 2>thing too, where like if you're doing Yeah.

0:54:24.440 --> 0:54:27.040
<v Speaker 3>I grew up in southern Baptist I remember going to

0:54:27.160 --> 0:54:30.800
<v Speaker 3>a bunch of revivals at at football stadiums Okay.

0:54:30.560 --> 0:54:31.200
<v Speaker 2>A lot of money.

0:54:31.600 --> 0:54:34.680
<v Speaker 3>It's always that that slick suit and the slipped back

0:54:34.760 --> 0:54:38.200
<v Speaker 3>hair and folks well, folksy story to make all the

0:54:38.200 --> 0:54:40.319
<v Speaker 3>older people feel a bit better and like let's talk

0:54:40.320 --> 0:54:42.440
<v Speaker 3>about how we've lost our way.

0:54:43.239 --> 0:54:44.719
<v Speaker 2>Or you can be I think what he does is

0:54:44.760 --> 0:54:47.080
<v Speaker 2>he's the guy who looks a little bit on the edge,

0:54:47.120 --> 0:54:49.239
<v Speaker 2>like he might have at one point been you know,

0:54:49.480 --> 0:54:54.680
<v Speaker 2>more of a kind of like a little dangerous, right,

0:54:54.760 --> 0:54:58.120
<v Speaker 2>but like now he's the spirit of the Lord, right, Yeah,

0:54:58.200 --> 0:55:00.480
<v Speaker 2>like I was. I was in the It's the Alex

0:55:00.600 --> 0:55:02.880
<v Speaker 2>Jones things, like I've been in the depths of Hollywood.

0:55:02.920 --> 0:55:04.719
<v Speaker 2>I know the real evils, you know, because he was

0:55:04.760 --> 0:55:07.719
<v Speaker 2>in a couple of leak letter movies. I think that's

0:55:07.760 --> 0:55:08.800
<v Speaker 2>probably part.

0:55:09.200 --> 0:55:12.960
<v Speaker 3>All the times, like revivals. It was like Elvis's step

0:55:13.000 --> 0:55:15.760
<v Speaker 3>brother or half brother who showed up as a speaker. Yeah,

0:55:15.800 --> 0:55:19.760
<v Speaker 3>talking about like I know the evils of this, Like, dude,

0:55:19.920 --> 0:55:21.040
<v Speaker 3>who the fuck are you?

0:55:21.040 --> 0:55:24.000
<v Speaker 2>You just know that that's the only only money for

0:55:24.040 --> 0:55:27.200
<v Speaker 2>Elvis's step brother in today. Yeah.

0:55:27.719 --> 0:55:27.919
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

0:55:27.960 --> 0:55:31.120
<v Speaker 2>So he and Rash name their company Lighthouse Publishing. Uh

0:55:31.160 --> 0:55:33.279
<v Speaker 2>and they list their they state their goal like the

0:55:33.320 --> 0:55:36.840
<v Speaker 2>company mission is to engulf as many hearts as possible

0:55:36.880 --> 0:55:40.680
<v Speaker 2>with art, which, in a very concaid fashion, is vaguely

0:55:40.719 --> 0:55:45.560
<v Speaker 2>similar or sinister. There's a problem, though, Thomas has realized

0:55:45.600 --> 0:55:47.960
<v Speaker 2>correctly that a lot of middle Americans want the kind

0:55:47.960 --> 0:55:51.120
<v Speaker 2>of things that signal wealth, like having original artwork hanging

0:55:51.160 --> 0:55:54.960
<v Speaker 2>in your home. But you can't really make actual paintings

0:55:54.960 --> 0:55:57.640
<v Speaker 2>that people want to buy at a rate fast enough

0:55:57.800 --> 0:56:00.319
<v Speaker 2>to make serious money, selling them to people who are

0:56:00.320 --> 0:56:03.560
<v Speaker 2>not insanely rich, and using that art as attack shelter. Right,

0:56:03.800 --> 0:56:06.239
<v Speaker 2>if you're selling your originals, you can only sell so

0:56:06.320 --> 0:56:08.439
<v Speaker 2>much art, and if you're selling your originals to people

0:56:08.440 --> 0:56:10.919
<v Speaker 2>who aren't rich, you're just not going to get rich.

0:56:11.960 --> 0:56:14.239
<v Speaker 2>But the value of art is in its exclusivity, and

0:56:14.280 --> 0:56:16.680
<v Speaker 2>Thomas realized that when you're dealing with people who aren't

0:56:16.680 --> 0:56:19.120
<v Speaker 2>in the out, who aren't in the art world, it's

0:56:19.200 --> 0:56:23.160
<v Speaker 2>easy to fake exclusivity because people are dumb. So he

0:56:23.280 --> 0:56:27.160
<v Speaker 2>starts utilizing a printing process that mimics the look of

0:56:27.200 --> 0:56:31.040
<v Speaker 2>a real painting. As sewer Lean describes, a digital image

0:56:31.040 --> 0:56:33.480
<v Speaker 2>could also be soaked in water, peeled off the paper,

0:56:33.520 --> 0:56:35.920
<v Speaker 2>and a fixed to a stretched canvas so that it

0:56:36.000 --> 0:56:38.080
<v Speaker 2>showed the texture of the canvas in a way in

0:56:38.120 --> 0:56:41.120
<v Speaker 2>the way a real painting would. Right, So that's step

0:56:41.200 --> 0:56:43.279
<v Speaker 2>one but a print that looks like it has the

0:56:43.320 --> 0:56:46.480
<v Speaker 2>texture of a painting is still just a print. So

0:56:46.520 --> 0:56:48.800
<v Speaker 2>if you're going to sell thousands of them, people aren't

0:56:48.840 --> 0:56:50.920
<v Speaker 2>going to pay a lot for them. So Thomas has

0:56:50.920 --> 0:56:53.360
<v Speaker 2>another idea. He has to make them unique, but in

0:56:53.400 --> 0:56:56.760
<v Speaker 2>a way that he can mass produce. So he hires

0:56:56.840 --> 0:56:59.560
<v Speaker 2>and trains up an entire factory full of what he

0:56:59.600 --> 0:57:03.760
<v Speaker 2>calls master highlighters to come in and add small bits

0:57:03.800 --> 0:57:07.080
<v Speaker 2>of paint, like they'll paint over a single tree on

0:57:07.120 --> 0:57:09.080
<v Speaker 2>the print, or a little patch of snow or a

0:57:09.160 --> 0:57:13.120
<v Speaker 2>rock or something, and now you technically have an original

0:57:13.160 --> 0:57:16.400
<v Speaker 2>piece of art. Now you've got something you can market

0:57:16.520 --> 0:57:19.160
<v Speaker 2>not just as decor for the home, but as an

0:57:19.200 --> 0:57:23.280
<v Speaker 2>investment vehicle to rooms. Right, And that's the key to

0:57:23.280 --> 0:57:26.320
<v Speaker 2>the Thomas Kincaid story. It's not just that his art

0:57:26.360 --> 0:57:29.120
<v Speaker 2>comforts people. It's that he convinces them that they will

0:57:29.120 --> 0:57:31.960
<v Speaker 2>make money if they buy it. Just like all of

0:57:32.000 --> 0:57:34.440
<v Speaker 2>the rich con artists they admire.

0:57:36.040 --> 0:57:39.400
<v Speaker 3>A great This is an investment. It's an investment, but

0:57:39.520 --> 0:57:41.760
<v Speaker 3>like it's not one of those scary paintings that you

0:57:41.840 --> 0:57:44.600
<v Speaker 3>hear about it at least like, yeah, it's a paint

0:57:44.640 --> 0:57:48.280
<v Speaker 3>that you love that makes you feel safe, and you

0:57:48.400 --> 0:57:50.760
<v Speaker 3>can pass it on to your children. It'll be worth

0:57:50.800 --> 0:57:51.520
<v Speaker 3>so much money.

0:57:51.600 --> 0:57:54.480
<v Speaker 2>It's going to keep appreciating value because look, somebody painted

0:57:54.520 --> 0:57:56.800
<v Speaker 2>that tree in the corner. So this is an original,

0:57:57.040 --> 0:57:59.560
<v Speaker 2>unique piece of work. There's not another one like it

0:57:59.640 --> 0:58:02.520
<v Speaker 2>any are in the world. This is a safe place

0:58:02.560 --> 0:58:07.280
<v Speaker 2>to park your children's inheritance. And you know he's not

0:58:07.440 --> 0:58:11.160
<v Speaker 2>just he's selling these through They launch a series of galleries, right,

0:58:11.200 --> 0:58:15.400
<v Speaker 2>which are art retail establishments. Right They only initially they

0:58:15.440 --> 0:58:19.680
<v Speaker 2>only sell Thomas's work, and they they are they are

0:58:19.720 --> 0:58:23.400
<v Speaker 2>operated individually, kind of like a McDonald's franchise, so like

0:58:23.520 --> 0:58:28.560
<v Speaker 2>independent people franchise kincaid galleries. So he gets them taking

0:58:28.600 --> 0:58:32.000
<v Speaker 2>on the financial risk he gets he's convincing other people

0:58:32.320 --> 0:58:34.720
<v Speaker 2>to take on the financial risk of building a brick

0:58:34.760 --> 0:58:36.800
<v Speaker 2>and mortar or of operating a brick and mortar to

0:58:36.960 --> 0:58:39.640
<v Speaker 2>sell his work. But he gets a cut of every

0:58:39.760 --> 0:58:42.200
<v Speaker 2>sale that they make. And he'll like he'll send his

0:58:42.320 --> 0:58:45.760
<v Speaker 2>Master highlighters out to individual stores to do live events.

0:58:46.040 --> 0:58:49.840
<v Speaker 2>He'll go do speaking engagements and sign prints there. All

0:58:49.920 --> 0:58:53.160
<v Speaker 2>of this creates a pretty viable business. And I really

0:58:53.160 --> 0:58:55.200
<v Speaker 2>need to lean into how much of a scam it is,

0:58:55.240 --> 0:58:58.200
<v Speaker 2>so I want to quote again from that New Yorker article, which.

0:58:58.160 --> 0:59:01.040
<v Speaker 3>It reminds me of Liechtenstein, who has few whom create

0:59:01.160 --> 0:59:02.680
<v Speaker 3>art for him, but he got to put his name

0:59:02.720 --> 0:59:03.040
<v Speaker 3>on it.

0:59:03.120 --> 0:59:05.920
<v Speaker 2>Yes, Yes, And there's other guys who have done parts

0:59:05.960 --> 0:59:09.560
<v Speaker 2>of it. I think the degree to which Kincaid turns

0:59:09.600 --> 0:59:16.440
<v Speaker 2>this into like an actual factory, mechanized business based entirely

0:59:16.480 --> 0:59:18.600
<v Speaker 2>around him, especially at the time he does it, is

0:59:18.960 --> 0:59:21.880
<v Speaker 2>fairly unique. Again, he is playing with things. He's not

0:59:21.920 --> 0:59:24.040
<v Speaker 2>the only guy doing style. He's not the only guy

0:59:24.040 --> 0:59:26.120
<v Speaker 2>who ever does this highlighting thing, but he is the

0:59:26.120 --> 0:59:28.640
<v Speaker 2>first to do it at scale and make tens of

0:59:28.640 --> 0:59:31.160
<v Speaker 2>millions of dollars off of it. Right, this becomes more

0:59:31.200 --> 0:59:34.680
<v Speaker 2>standard as a result of him, and to highlight kind

0:59:34.680 --> 0:59:37.360
<v Speaker 2>of the degree to which these people are being scammed

0:59:37.360 --> 0:59:39.760
<v Speaker 2>into thinking they're buying an investment. I want to in

0:59:39.760 --> 0:59:42.360
<v Speaker 2>that New Yorker article, it quotes the manager of one

0:59:42.400 --> 0:59:46.600
<v Speaker 2>of Thomas's galleries talking a customer through a purchase. You're

0:59:46.600 --> 0:59:50.680
<v Speaker 2>building a great portfolio. They're nice investments, and this one's

0:59:50.720 --> 0:59:53.880
<v Speaker 2>almost sold out, and they do have a history of appreciation.

0:59:54.360 --> 0:59:58.120
<v Speaker 2>We have some secondary market pieces here, this one Julianne's

0:59:58.160 --> 1:00:00.640
<v Speaker 2>Cottage was released for a few hundred dollars in nineteen

1:00:00.720 --> 1:00:04.120
<v Speaker 2>ninety two, and now it's thirty seven hundred and thirty dollars.

1:00:05.440 --> 1:00:08.760
<v Speaker 2>So that's a big part of the promise, this will

1:00:08.760 --> 1:00:13.200
<v Speaker 2>appreciate you're really making money, you know. And I think

1:00:13.240 --> 1:00:15.480
<v Speaker 2>that that is a key aspect of it. It's not

1:00:15.600 --> 1:00:19.200
<v Speaker 2>just that these people like comforting art. It's that they're

1:00:19.240 --> 1:00:22.600
<v Speaker 2>being convinced that their greed is being played with two

1:00:22.920 --> 1:00:27.560
<v Speaker 2>right babies. Yes, it's exactly Beanie but and it happens.

1:00:27.720 --> 1:00:29.760
<v Speaker 2>The fact that this all happens in the nineties, this

1:00:29.800 --> 1:00:33.080
<v Speaker 2>is happening. Kin Kate is really hitting his stride at

1:00:33.080 --> 1:00:35.680
<v Speaker 2>the same point that Beanie babies become a thing. Pokemon too.

1:00:36.200 --> 1:00:40.400
<v Speaker 3>The question like, you know, that's when market exactly because

1:00:40.520 --> 1:00:44.640
<v Speaker 3>everything's baseball cards are really big earties.

1:00:44.280 --> 1:00:47.160
<v Speaker 2>And he is he is influenced by that. He is

1:00:47.200 --> 1:00:49.640
<v Speaker 2>paying attention to how collectibles are going, and he is

1:00:49.640 --> 1:00:52.800
<v Speaker 2>applying that to his own art. Highlighted paintings are being

1:00:52.840 --> 1:00:56.520
<v Speaker 2>sold as studio proofs. Kin Kate himself would even do

1:00:56.600 --> 1:00:59.240
<v Speaker 2>a small number of highlighted copies where he's painting over

1:00:59.360 --> 1:01:03.400
<v Speaker 2>prints of his own paintings. The normal highlights could start

1:01:03.440 --> 1:01:06.000
<v Speaker 2>as low as fifteen hundred dollars, while as can Kit

1:01:06.120 --> 1:01:09.440
<v Speaker 2>Kincaid's highlights. And again he's just like painting a tree

1:01:09.960 --> 1:01:12.320
<v Speaker 2>or something on a painting he already made would go

1:01:12.360 --> 1:01:15.480
<v Speaker 2>for thirty or forty thousand dollars. But he kept a

1:01:15.520 --> 1:01:18.280
<v Speaker 2>hold of most of his originals, which helped add to

1:01:18.320 --> 1:01:21.120
<v Speaker 2>the perception of value for his prints, right. And he

1:01:21.680 --> 1:01:25.320
<v Speaker 2>would cut off artificially. He would stop selling individual prints

1:01:25.360 --> 1:01:28.120
<v Speaker 2>at varying times. He would make sure there were limited runs,

1:01:28.360 --> 1:01:30.800
<v Speaker 2>which again it's the city he's learning from beanie babies,

1:01:30.800 --> 1:01:33.760
<v Speaker 2>from you know, collectible cards. That's what adds to the

1:01:33.880 --> 1:01:37.040
<v Speaker 2>value in this secondary market that gets people buying in

1:01:37.120 --> 1:01:39.440
<v Speaker 2>because they think, well, I can get rich off of

1:01:39.480 --> 1:01:41.480
<v Speaker 2>this painting. You know, maybe people will want it a

1:01:41.520 --> 1:01:44.200
<v Speaker 2>lot in thirty years for some reason, and then it'll

1:01:44.200 --> 1:01:46.000
<v Speaker 2>really prove to have been a good investment.

1:01:46.240 --> 1:01:48.919
<v Speaker 3>It's all speculation and there's no proof that it will

1:01:48.960 --> 1:01:49.800
<v Speaker 3>have any value.

1:01:50.040 --> 1:01:54.280
<v Speaker 2>No, no, and in fact it doesn't. These are terrible investments.

1:01:55.200 --> 1:01:57.920
<v Speaker 2>And this is by the way, he when I call

1:01:58.000 --> 1:02:00.440
<v Speaker 2>him a con artist, he is going to be found

1:02:00.440 --> 1:02:06.360
<v Speaker 2>in court to have or his company to have people. Yes, yes,

1:02:06.600 --> 1:02:09.200
<v Speaker 2>Thomas himself has dropped from the case. The company he

1:02:09.320 --> 1:02:14.760
<v Speaker 2>starts UH is found to have misrepresented the business opportunity

1:02:15.120 --> 1:02:22.000
<v Speaker 2>that k Kate sell Ka Prince represented Trump's cabinets. Oh yeah, yeah,

1:02:22.000 --> 1:02:23.600
<v Speaker 2>I know he would have been like the Minister of

1:02:23.600 --> 1:02:29.680
<v Speaker 2>the Interior or some ship. Speaking of cabinet positions, Randy,

1:02:29.760 --> 1:02:32.280
<v Speaker 2>when I'm elected president, Now, let's see what am I

1:02:32.440 --> 1:02:33.600
<v Speaker 2>What am I going to make you? What am I

1:02:33.640 --> 1:02:39.400
<v Speaker 2>going to make you? Sectaf You're in charge of the army, Randy, Yeah, yeah,

1:02:39.440 --> 1:02:44.160
<v Speaker 2>you got to figure out a war and start it.

1:02:44.440 --> 1:02:46.800
<v Speaker 3>I mean, it's America. We can figure out. God.

1:02:47.280 --> 1:02:49.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we need we need like a like a like

1:02:49.520 --> 1:02:53.360
<v Speaker 2>smaller than Afghanistan, but bigger than Grenada. You know, really

1:02:53.440 --> 1:02:55.760
<v Speaker 2>find us one of those sweet spots, and let's just

1:02:56.200 --> 1:02:57.680
<v Speaker 2>let's start sending in Marines.

1:02:57.800 --> 1:03:00.600
<v Speaker 3>You know, Greenland's head fucking good.

1:03:00.920 --> 1:03:02.919
<v Speaker 2>I think we can. I think we could take Greenland. Yeah,

1:03:02.960 --> 1:03:04.840
<v Speaker 2>I think we could take Greenland. You know a lot

1:03:04.880 --> 1:03:10.800
<v Speaker 2>of minerals. Yeah, they probably have some president dictator. Yeah,

1:03:10.840 --> 1:03:14.520
<v Speaker 2>let's do it, all right, everybody, Evans, I don't know.

1:03:14.560 --> 1:03:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Let's say twenty thirty two, Uh, it's time for Greenland

1:03:18.040 --> 1:03:23.160
<v Speaker 2>to pay Wow, Randy. Do you have any any place

1:03:23.200 --> 1:03:24.840
<v Speaker 2>on the Internet that you exist?

1:03:26.040 --> 1:03:29.520
<v Speaker 3>Yes, unfortunately quite a few places. My main comics Something

1:03:29.560 --> 1:03:33.040
<v Speaker 3>Positive is that Something Positive dot Net. I also have

1:03:33.200 --> 1:03:39.640
<v Speaker 3>mouse Trapped, mouse Trapped comic dot blog, also comics Kingdom

1:03:39.760 --> 1:03:44.040
<v Speaker 3>dot com, slash Popeye. Every Sunday is a new Popeye strip.

1:03:44.560 --> 1:03:49.720
<v Speaker 3>Come see why so many of your seventy and sixty

1:03:49.800 --> 1:03:52.600
<v Speaker 3>year old uncles and aunts fucking hate me because I

1:03:52.760 --> 1:03:54.680
<v Speaker 3>ruined Popeye by including people of color.

1:03:55.040 --> 1:03:59.600
<v Speaker 2>Hell yeah, well check out Randy. Check out us on

1:03:59.640 --> 1:04:03.000
<v Speaker 2>youtubeube or not. If you want to continue listening to it,

1:04:03.080 --> 1:04:05.280
<v Speaker 2>you can just listen to it. I promise most of

1:04:05.320 --> 1:04:08.360
<v Speaker 2>the episodes we do will not be about painters, but

1:04:08.960 --> 1:04:11.560
<v Speaker 2>when we do episodes about artists, it helps to have

1:04:11.600 --> 1:04:12.040
<v Speaker 2>a video.

1:04:12.280 --> 1:04:14.840
<v Speaker 3>So any episode about Hitler is about a painter.

1:04:15.360 --> 1:04:18.640
<v Speaker 2>It is it is. You know what we are. We're

1:04:18.640 --> 1:04:21.840
<v Speaker 2>going to launch our pure art criticism episode of Hitler.

1:04:25.000 --> 1:04:27.760
<v Speaker 3>Hitler and John Wayne Gacy's and how would they match up?

1:04:28.440 --> 1:04:30.439
<v Speaker 2>I think they would have been friends, actually they'd gotten

1:04:30.480 --> 1:04:32.520
<v Speaker 2>the opportunity. I think Hitler would have really liked him

1:04:32.520 --> 1:04:36.760
<v Speaker 2>if you'd gotten to know him. One of history's great tragedies,

1:04:36.800 --> 1:04:39.560
<v Speaker 2>the friendships that never were. There's a good there's a

1:04:39.600 --> 1:04:41.800
<v Speaker 2>good study history there.

1:04:41.960 --> 1:04:42.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1:04:42.720 --> 1:04:47.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Hitler and John Wayne. Yeah. I want Hitler and

1:04:47.160 --> 1:04:51.760
<v Speaker 2>John Wayne Gacy as like detectives in New Orleans solving crimes.

1:04:55.160 --> 1:04:57.800
<v Speaker 2>The short story that will finally get me canceled The

1:04:57.920 --> 1:05:00.000
<v Speaker 2>Hitler Gaysey Files.

1:04:59.440 --> 1:05:06.360
<v Speaker 1>On the podcast Some Word for You Okay Bye. Behind

1:05:06.360 --> 1:05:09.160
<v Speaker 1>the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. For

1:05:09.280 --> 1:05:13.280
<v Speaker 1>more from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia dot com,

1:05:13.440 --> 1:05:16.680
<v Speaker 1>or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1:05:16.760 --> 1:05:18.320
<v Speaker 1>or wherever you get your podcasts.