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Speaker 1: Also media Ah.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast that lies

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Speaker 2: about its guests and gets them made the suspects of

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Speaker 2: ongoing murder investigations. Welcome to the program, Randy Millhall and Randy,

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Speaker 2: have you ever been expected suspected of a series of

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Speaker 2: violent crimes?

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Speaker 3: Only a triple ridgis sign.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's a good crime to be suspected for. Well, Randy,

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Speaker 2: today we're going to come up with a crime and

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Speaker 2: insinuate to our listeners that you committed it, although you know, honestly,

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Speaker 2: before we started this podcast, you were talking about having

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Speaker 2: just moved to la and people looking at you suspiciously

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Speaker 2: because you are, like me, a hulking man with a beard.

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Speaker 2: I used to have a much longer beard too, and

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Speaker 2: I know those looks. And honestly, when I started the

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Speaker 2: rumors that Jamie Loftus had killed all those people in

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Speaker 2: Grand Rabbits, I was just trying to make her more

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Speaker 2: empathetic to the struggles of men like you and me,

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Speaker 2: you know, so that she knows what it's like. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're the really the the largest discriminated against group in

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Speaker 2: this country.

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Speaker 1: I cannot, I cannot let you continue this bit.

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Speaker 2: Why not who men who look like extras from one

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Speaker 2: of the Dwarf heavy Lord of the Rings movies. Like,

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Speaker 2: what's wrong with that?

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Speaker 3: Are you saying that?

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Speaker 1: Because like a lost shirt?

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Speaker 2: I did not know that you were wearing a lego

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Speaker 2: Lost T shirt. I am Randy, Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 3: It's a pleasure. Thank you.

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Speaker 2: You're the artist and writer behind the Something Positive webcomic.

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Speaker 2: You are also the legal guardian of Popeye the Sailor Man.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that is actually accurate.

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Speaker 2: And you came on the show for the first time.

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Speaker 2: I think it was last year to talk about Scott

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Speaker 2: Adams because I've been a fan of your your work

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Speaker 2: for a while and I was I found out that

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Speaker 2: you were a fan of the pod and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: this will be I like to do that. You know,

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Speaker 2: this will be great. We'll have Randy on for the

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Speaker 2: one episode about an artist that we ever do. Surely

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Speaker 2: there aren't that many like world class historical monsters who

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Speaker 2: are also working illustrators, right, how many could there be? Anyway,

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Speaker 2: this is your third time back on the show, you.

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Speaker 3: Know it is amazing. Yeah, a lot of artists.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I get when you think about all

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Speaker 2: of the other kinds of art that produces monsters. I

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Speaker 2: guess it's not surprising. Just don't trust people who are creative.

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Speaker 2: You know, if anybody has a creative thought around you,

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Speaker 2: just start hitting.

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Speaker 1: Them what by job by job titles ahead of creative?

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Speaker 3: I feel at.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well you're about to be attacked if our

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Speaker 2: listeners do the job anyway, Randy, what do you know?

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Speaker 2: What have you heard about Thomas Kincaid?

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Speaker 3: I know he's dead, yes, and yes, despite being dead,

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Speaker 3: that's gonna be a real highlight of I know that

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Speaker 3: being dead, his signature still appears on brand new art,

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Speaker 3: which leads me to think there's some type of assembly

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Speaker 3: line going on. Uh, that's really it. Like I think

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Speaker 3: my grandmother had one of his prints, and that's about it. Like,

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Speaker 3: I know love artists? Are people in art loved to

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Speaker 3: dunk on him?

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Speaker 2: Yes he does. He gets his art gets attacked, and honestly,

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Speaker 2: some of the dunks you strike me as people being

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Speaker 2: like a little bit up their own assholes. But I

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Speaker 2: don't like his art particularly either. But no, he's not

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Speaker 2: a bad We're not. We're not just going to be

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Speaker 2: doing an episode where we make fun of this guy's

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Speaker 2: art because it's bad art. He both occupies a place

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Speaker 2: in culture where he contributed to the kind of right

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Speaker 2: wing derangement of our society. And more to the point,

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Speaker 2: he just like I am, a deeply unethical man who

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Speaker 2: took advantage of his customers.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: And he also is kind of the kind of the

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Speaker 2: Ford of of paintings. Like when you said about there

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Speaker 2: being a h An industrial factory aspect to what he

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Speaker 2: did is very much accurate, although maybe not entirely in

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Speaker 2: the way that you had predicted. But Randy, you want

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Speaker 2: to learn about Thomas motherfucking Kincaid.

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Speaker 3: I know. I was excited to and then I saw

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Speaker 3: that this meeting is schedule for three hours and I'm

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Speaker 3: a little more nervous about it now.

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Speaker 2: And how long straight to We'll see how long.

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Speaker 3: Bring those like Ford and all the anti semitisms. I'm like,

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Speaker 3: you can't wait to see what pamphlets t well not

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Speaker 3: that bad?

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Speaker 1: Well, well, Randy, I will say the working title for

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Speaker 1: this episode is the Panther of Light was Worse than Hitler.

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Speaker 2: That was for your eyes only, Sony. That's not an

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Speaker 2: accurate title. Sometimes sometimes you just you know, hyperbole is

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Speaker 2: a necessary coping mechanism. When you have to write eight

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Speaker 2: and a half thousand words about Thomas Kinkaid, the Painter

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Speaker 2: of Light. Anyway, here it fucking goes eight and a

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Speaker 2: half thousand something like that. Pretty normal script. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: a lot to write about Thomas Kinkaid though. Anyway, cold open, closed,

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Speaker 2: We're back. So I think probably more than half of

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Speaker 2: the people listening have some awareness of who this is

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Speaker 2: just after I mentioned his name. He is one of

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Speaker 2: the best known, if not the best known artists in

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Speaker 2: the United States. And like you said, Randy, you think

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Speaker 2: you have a relative who might have had one of

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Speaker 2: his prints. A lot of people do. Right, If you've

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Speaker 2: ever been walking through like a relative's house or a

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Speaker 2: particularly opulent Airbnb and seeing a garish painting or a

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Speaker 2: series of garish paintings featuring idealized rule or small town

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Speaker 2: life with kind of a distinctive fifties Americana feel and

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Speaker 2: a use of color and light that feels simultaneously quaint

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Speaker 2: yet sinister, you are familiar with the work of Thomas Kincaid,

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Speaker 2: And if you aren't, Sophie's going to put up on

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Speaker 2: the screen some examples for the listeners. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: try and describe this. This is going to be one

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Speaker 2: of the more visual episodes we've had, just because we're

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Speaker 2: talking about a painter. That's part of why we're we're

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Speaker 2: doing adding video now, although I promise most of our

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Speaker 2: episodes won't be about painters.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, check out the YouTube. Yeah YouTube dot com slash

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Speaker 1: at behind the Bastards.

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Speaker 2: If not, let me describe the first one we've got

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Speaker 2: here is the perspective in this painting is really fucked.

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Speaker 2: But it looks like almost.

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Speaker 3: It might be me because I'm like, yeah, tractor, Yeah

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Speaker 3: is tiny.

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Speaker 2: That truck also even with the distance, looks tiny like that.

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Speaker 2: You've got a soldier walking towards like a cottage farm house,

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Speaker 2: but there's some bus that's clearly dropped him off on

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Speaker 2: a dirt road. He's walking home. Looks like about World

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Speaker 2: War two. Maybe it could be Vietnam era, probably more

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Speaker 2: closer to Vietnam around the tree so you know, yes, yep,

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Speaker 2: waiting for him. Yeah, so they've been waiting for him. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's a soldier returning home. The cabin. Part of where

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Speaker 2: I say sinister is like it's a daytime picture, Like

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Speaker 2: it's clearly the middle of the day, Like you can

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Speaker 2: see blue sky and a lot of you know, bright clouds.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of light on the ground. But also

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Speaker 2: the cabin is glowing from the inside in a way

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Speaker 2: that I think it's supposed to seem warm and homie.

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Speaker 2: That makes it feel like like a cabin from a

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Speaker 2: fucking Sam Raimi movie. Like it feels like there's a

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Speaker 2: devil inside there, and the soldiers come back home having

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Speaker 2: just survived the war, to confront the evil that's devoured

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Speaker 2: his family.

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Speaker 3: He does have an ecronomic on in that backpack.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's why it's so bulgye Yes, yeah, that he

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Speaker 2: just this is an alternate history where we won Vietnam

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Speaker 2: by bringing the dead Eites down upon them. Honestly, pretty

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Speaker 2: good movie in that premise, or bad movie in that premise.

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Speaker 3: There's a role playing game in that I think, actually.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, definitely.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 2: The second picture we've got here is kind of a

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Speaker 2: very classic Kincaid. This is a cabin in the woods again.

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Speaker 2: You've got like the whole cabin lit from the inside

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Speaker 2: in a way that is supposed to be homie but

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Speaker 2: also seems kind of vaguely sinister. Everything sparkles a lot,

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Speaker 2: there's almost a glossy feel like. It feels like if

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Speaker 2: you've ever put you've been like painting miniatures and like

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Speaker 2: done like a glaze or something over them. It feels

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Speaker 2: like the whole picture has been kind of glazed in

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Speaker 2: that way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then the third one we've.

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Speaker 3: Built, it looks like a Christmas village building.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it does look like it is that. That's the

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Speaker 2: best way to describe it. Randy's if you've ever if

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Speaker 2: you ever had a relative who like what every year

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Speaker 2: on the holidays would put up one of those Christmas

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Speaker 2: model villages. All of his paintings of cabins look like that.

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Speaker 2: And it's a lot of small town paintings too, very

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Speaker 2: much like kind of the best touchstone for that if

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Speaker 2: you haven't seen a Kincaid somehow. And then this last one, surprise, surprise,

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Speaker 2: he's super Christian and not the good kind. And we've

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Speaker 2: got this painting of a cross on top of a

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Speaker 2: mountain and like the clouds are kind of like retreating

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Speaker 2: from the path of the that of the cross like

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Speaker 2: that that gives it a line straight to the sun

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Speaker 2: which is setting. It's this I don't know very again,

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Speaker 2: it almost looks AI generated, right, I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of people's first reaction to seeing these in the year

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, if they weren't familiar with Kincaid, would go, oh,

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Speaker 2: are these like some AI art? Right? It almost that

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Speaker 2: like hyper real, like shiny look that all of the

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Speaker 2: AI shit has his work kind of has.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's very unpleasant. Yeah, so much.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I find it off putting too, And I

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Speaker 2: think there's a good reason why my head immediately goes

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Speaker 2: to and I look at it now, Oh, this kind

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Speaker 2: of looks like a lot of AI art, because every

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Speaker 2: AI image generator has scraped a shitload of Kincaid's work.

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Speaker 2: He was incredibly prolific and incredibly popular, and I do

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Speaker 2: think he actually has probably wound up having an influence

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Speaker 2: on because of how well his stuff like It doesn't

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Speaker 2: just sell, people will post kincaid paintings to like Facebook

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Speaker 2: to get engagement, and I think that that has to

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Speaker 2: a significant extent influenced how a lot of these image

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Speaker 2: generators work and a lot of the crap that they

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Speaker 2: put out. And we'll be talking about that more later.

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Speaker 2: But for those of you who haven't been able to

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Speaker 2: see the art, or those of you who just want

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Speaker 2: to hear someone smarter than me describe it. I want

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Speaker 2: to quote Joan Didion's description of Thomas Kincaid's style. A

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Speaker 2: Kincaid painting was typically rendered in slightly surreal pastels. It

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Speaker 2: typically featured a cottage or a house of such insistent

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Speaker 2: coziness as to seem actually sinister, suggestive of a trap

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Speaker 2: designed to attract Hansel and Gretel. Every window was lit

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Speaker 2: to really effect as if the interior of the structure

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Speaker 2: might be on fire. The cottages had faxed rooms and

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Speaker 2: resembled a gingerbread house. The houses were Victorian and resembled

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Speaker 2: idealized bed and breakfast, at least two of which in Placerville,

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Speaker 2: the Chinchester McKey House and the Comelback Blair House, claim

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Speaker 2: to have been the models for kincaid Christmas paintings. So

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Speaker 2: it's very much a lot of it's kind of this

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Speaker 2: idolized rural California chic and it's yeah, I think I

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Speaker 2: think Joan kind of gets it right there. It does

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Speaker 2: there's something vaguely evil about his paintings.

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Speaker 3: But suddenly I want to thinkcaid painting of the gas

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Speaker 3: station from Texas chains on.

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Speaker 2: Mass that's actually there's kind of a whole style of

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Speaker 2: like meme art, that is, people taking Kincaid paintings and

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Speaker 2: like turning them into pea pieces of horror. We'll talk

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Speaker 2: about that in a little bit, but it's remarkably easy

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Speaker 2: to do. Now. Kinkaid is the kind of guy who

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Speaker 2: is mostly remembered as making like wal art for hotel

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Speaker 2: grade kind of shit. But he's probably the best selling

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Speaker 2: American painter of the last generation. And he is, by

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Speaker 2: any of any account, one of the wealthy, wealthiest artists

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Speaker 2: of any medium ever to live. He died worth somewhere

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Speaker 2: between fifty and seventy million dollars. So you were talking

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Speaker 2: about like basically no one in the arts ever makes

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Speaker 2: that kind of money, right, Like he is the yeah.

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Speaker 3: The only person I can think of who probably can't

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Speaker 3: close and many have the pass was like Charles Schultz

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Speaker 3: in his lifetime.

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Speaker 2: Schultz das maybe yeah, yeah, you know, yes, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think you're probably right that, Like you have to go

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Speaker 2: to some of the most to the most successful commercial

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Speaker 2: cartoonists of and again you're still going back like a

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Speaker 2: generation to talk about anyone getting that kind of money

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Speaker 2: for this sort of work, And you know, part of

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Speaker 2: what makes him different is that those guys like Schultz

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Speaker 2: is making art that is consumed by tens of millions

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Speaker 2: of people. Right, That's why there's so much money, and

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Speaker 2: it was so much money in it for him. Painting

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Speaker 2: is a bit different, right, most paintings, you know, most painters,

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Speaker 2: if they get rich, do it because they make something

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Speaker 2: that gets you know, develops a value because of its

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Speaker 2: kind of cultural weight, and it gets sold to someone

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Speaker 2: very wealthy who's willing to pay for it, and then

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Speaker 2: it kind of gets deranged from any sort of real

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Speaker 2: value that can go back to the artist. Because what

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Speaker 2: happens with great paintings and valuable works of art when

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Speaker 2: they get bought by rich people usually is those rich

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Speaker 2: people put them in storage containers and trade them back

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Speaker 2: and forth with each other as a way of kind

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Speaker 2: of laundering money. That is most of the art market,

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Speaker 2: like the big art market. Kincaid made all of this money.

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Speaker 2: He didn't make this money selling originals to very rich people.

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Speaker 2: He made all of his money selling prints to middle

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Speaker 2: class people.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Uh. And that's that's completely unique. No one else really

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Speaker 2: has done it to the extent that he was able

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Speaker 2: to do it. And you know, it's counting stuff like

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Speaker 2: this is always kind of a crap shoot, but one

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Speaker 2: credible estimate says that sort of at the height of

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Speaker 2: his popularity, something like one in ten American homes had

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Speaker 2: a Thomas Kincaid print on at least one wall, which

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Speaker 2: is nuts. Like, that's a crazy level of penetration.

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Speaker 3: I guarantee more now because I know his label has

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Speaker 3: licensing agreements with Harry Potter, Disney and the Disney brands,

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Speaker 3: Like there are yeah, looking marveled.

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Speaker 2: There's Star Wars shit, yeah.

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Speaker 3: The Star Wars ones I've seen, and there that's some

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Speaker 3: ugly composition. I feel kind of that's saying I don't

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Speaker 3: like busting of art, but it's just.

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Speaker 2: It's it's he's turned into this is not really as

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Speaker 2: much of what it was for the most top part

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Speaker 2: when he was alive, but it's just kind of turned into, well,

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Speaker 2: people know this name, and they know that they can

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Speaker 2: get art from here, so let's make as many deals

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Speaker 2: as we can. But during his lifetime, it was really

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Speaker 2: just selling his work, and we're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: like how he actually made that profitable because it was

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Speaker 2: by taking the logic that we see use in multi

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Speaker 2: level marketing like pyramid schemes and by right wing populist

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Speaker 2: politicians and applying it to art sales. Right, that's how

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Speaker 2: he got this successful. And the fact that this worked

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Speaker 2: says a lot about our country, which is kind of

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Speaker 2: why we're telling this story in the Year of Our

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Speaker 2: Lord twenty twenty four. Is this as we watch an

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Speaker 2: election where one side is largely propped up by an

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Speaker 2: alliance of used car dealers, cryptos, scammers and fucking multi

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Speaker 2: level marketing con men.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, you might be being generous on that one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. William Thomas Kinkaid the Third was born January nineteenth,

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifty eight, in Sacramento, California, better known as the

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Speaker 2: very crack of Hell itself. Have you been to Sacramento much?

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Speaker 2: I've not been to City of Trees? They call it

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Speaker 2: City a Tree.

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Speaker 1: And yes, yes, Robert, yes.

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Speaker 2: Uh it's okay. I had to live in reading Sacramento,

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Speaker 2: I know, I know, suffering too. Uh So he grew

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Speaker 2: up in Placerville. He grew up in Placerville. Sacramento's fine.

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Speaker 2: He grew up in Placerville, which was a quiet mountain

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Speaker 2: town in the Sierra Nevada foothills. His childhood is always

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Speaker 2: a sore spot for him. He does not, he does

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Speaker 2: not recall it as a nice one. But he's also

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Speaker 2: a professional fabulous, so he's going to lie about it constantly.

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Speaker 2: But one thing that is more or less accurate is

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Speaker 2: that he came from a broken home. His father abandoned

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Speaker 2: the family when Thomas was five. He was a painter,

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Speaker 2: although he never sold anything and mostly was an alcoholic

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Speaker 2: who survived off of part time janitorial work. Thomas is prob.

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Speaker 3: That's most painters.

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Speaker 2: That's most painters. Yes, drunken and doing janitorial work to

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Speaker 2: get by because painting is just not a great way

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Speaker 2: to get money. Nope, h Thomas. His brother Patrick recalls

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Speaker 2: him as a lovable, sad sack who was more of

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Speaker 2: a bit player in their childhoods than a father. Right,

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Speaker 2: this is not a situation where like he's gone entirely,

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Speaker 2: but I know it's a real bleak. Like he's like

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Speaker 2: a guest star in like a TV sitcom like Onis

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Speaker 2: once a season, he'll come in for an episode.

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Speaker 3: Charles Nelson Riley.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Weirdly, one of the quotes from Patrick about their

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Speaker 2: dad sounds very similar to Doctor Evil's speech about his

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Speaker 2: father and Austin powers and I just have to I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to try to do the voice. But Tom

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Speaker 2: and I both certainly felt that we were more sophisticated

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Speaker 2: than he was. He'd go off on these tangents, these

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Speaker 2: flights of fancy about what he was going to do

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Speaker 2: with his life, these bouts of expertise that he really

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Speaker 2: had no expertise about. He'd be so into it, and

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Speaker 2: Tom and I would just sit there and smile and nod,

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Speaker 2: knowing that this was all nonsense. And then my father

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Speaker 2: didn't really have the capacity to carry out that plan.

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Speaker 2: He wanted to sail around the Sea of Cortes. He

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Speaker 2: had this weird little boat that in no way was ready,

340
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Speaker 2: nor was he a sailor. He had a hat and

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Speaker 2: a map. Wow, I'm sorry, I'm not laughing at your

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Speaker 2: sad childhood, but that's pretty funny.

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Speaker 3: No, that's that's kind of like, that's amazing. Yeah, it

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Speaker 3: feels like some morested development level.

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Speaker 2: Since their dad was pretty useless, care and feeding of

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Speaker 2: the family fell upon their single mother. She got by

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Speaker 2: as best she could, working as a notary public and

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Speaker 2: surviving with the help of government welfare. Unfortunately, Like, there's

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Speaker 2: no shame in having to get by on welfare. As

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Speaker 2: the problem is, she hid this dependency from her kids, which,

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Speaker 2: as a result, they grew up not kind of and

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Speaker 2: I think this plays into how Tom is as an adult.

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Speaker 2: They grew up not really aware of how much of

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Speaker 2: their survival had hinged on the existence of a social

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Speaker 2: safety net. For an example of kind of how she

356
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 2: hid this, Tom and his brother as kids thought that

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Speaker 2: the jars of peanut butter stamped property of El Dorado

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00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,160
Speaker 2: County were gifts from friends like she. She didn't want

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Speaker 2: to admit to them how bad their financial situation was,

360
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Speaker 2: and as a result, as kids, they weren't really aware

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Speaker 2: of like how much they like their family was being

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Speaker 2: supported by this by society, right, which is I think

363
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Speaker 2: not bad, especially if you're a kid who grows up

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Speaker 2: to be crazy rich. Maybe the feeling that, like, oh,

365
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Speaker 2: when I was a kid and needed it, I was

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Speaker 2: able to benefit from the support of my society. Perhaps

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00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,480
Speaker 2: I have a moral obligation now that I'm rich to

368
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Speaker 2: help out other people. Thomas is not going to grow

369
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Speaker 2: up feeling that way, right, Yeah, I mean maybe he

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Speaker 2: wouldn't have either wayis right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I feel sympathy and empathy for her.

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Speaker 2: Because yeah, it's tough.

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Speaker 3: You don't it's got to be a bruise to the ego.

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Speaker 3: And also you don't want your kid be made fun

375
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Speaker 3: of because.

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Speaker 2: Right the kids they go schooled pretty brutal. Yeah, yeah,

377
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,159
Speaker 2: and I get why you would hide that. I understand

378
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,960
Speaker 2: like the shame of it, you know, I am. I'm

379
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 2: thinking back to my own child, and I'm kind of

380
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,400
Speaker 2: glad that my dad let me know about, like when

381
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,680
Speaker 2: he was on unemployment, like what that is and how

382
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,479
Speaker 2: it works, and like growing up with even that kind

383
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 2: of understanding to yeah, yeah, if.

384
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Speaker 3: You need help, you need help, then right, you should

385
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Speaker 3: be able to get it.

386
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Speaker 2: And that's that's not how he's going to Patrick is

387
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:30,680
Speaker 2: going to grow up thinking about this sort of stuff.

388
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Speaker 2: Or that's not how Thomas and Patrick are going to

389
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Speaker 2: grow up thinking about this sort of stuff.

390
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Speaker 3: Uh.

391
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Speaker 2: Their mother, they remember as a very cheery person who

392
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,520
Speaker 2: used good humor to hide their desperate financial straits. At

393
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Speaker 2: one point, all of the family furniture was repossessed. When

394
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:45,680
Speaker 2: the boys came home to an empty house, their mother

395
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 2: told them she'd chosen to get rid of the furniture

396
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:49,639
Speaker 2: so they could have a fun time camping out in

397
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Speaker 2: their house. So we get not shitting on this lady.

398
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 2: She's doing the best with what she's got. That's that's true.

399
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Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I get the desire to shield your

400
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 3: children from stuff like that because that's going to that's

401
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 3: a trauma. You're trying to make sure. She sounds like

402
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:08,680
Speaker 3: a great mom.

403
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,320
Speaker 2: To be honest, she sounds like she did her very best.

404
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 2: You know, you can't guarantee kids are going to come

405
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 2: out not be an assholes.

406
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:15,920
Speaker 3: No.

407
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. And that said, I'm also not one hundred percent

408
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,440
Speaker 2: sure how much of this to believe because that does

409
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,480
Speaker 2: sound like a Hallmark original movie. And Thomas is like

410
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 2: he always has Hallmark brain. He's constantly spinning his own

411
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,679
Speaker 2: life story. And I wouldn't be entirely surprised if aspects

412
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Speaker 2: of this whole broken home, you know, plucky but but

413
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,920
Speaker 2: beleaguered single mom story were kind of played up because

414
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 2: he knows how they play as like a narrative, right.

415
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,880
Speaker 2: I don't know though, But his version of the story

416
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 2: is that at a very young age, his mother told

417
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Speaker 2: him that he had to be the man of his

418
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 2: house now because his dad had left. Now, that same

419
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,440
Speaker 2: version of the story, the one that Thomas liked to share,

420
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 2: claims that in school he was a child prodigy, good

421
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,880
Speaker 2: at math cifix every class, but especially drawn to art.

422
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 2: His first major artistic venture was commercial. At age fourteen,

423
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 2: he set up a stand selling his drawings for two

424
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 2: dollars each. In an article for The New Yorker, Sue

425
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 2: or Lean writes, every time he sold one, he would

426
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 2: marvel at how he could make money on something that

427
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 2: had taken him only fifteen minutes to do. And that

428
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,159
Speaker 2: does that his early attitude about art as well, I

429
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 2: can with very little work make money off of this,

430
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 2: Like kind of he's already thinking, how can I maximize

431
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 2: spending as little time as possible to get as much

432
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 2: return on the time I put into art? Like he's

433
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:43,479
Speaker 2: financialized those Yeah, I do if he is. I mean

434
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 2: it sounds like he was actually very poor. I get

435
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 2: that right, because it's this thing that like people who

436
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 2: grow more comfortable, it's hard to understand, but like you

437
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,479
Speaker 2: kind of have to think of everything in financial terms

438
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 2: when you're that amazing kid. So I'm not surprised.

439
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 3: That's fair and honestly, like, on one level, it's nice

440
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 3: to know that someone with archistic skill early realized that

441
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,199
Speaker 3: they could make money because I've do so Many artists

442
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 3: don't understand the value of the work and over really

443
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 3: hard for it. So on one hand, it's nice to

444
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 3: know the young age he understood his value. I just

445
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 3: also know where this is going. Yeah, well, yes, I'm

446
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 3: not happy about it.

447
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:32,640
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. Now, Thomas was so was promising enough as

448
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 2: an artist that he started attracting mentors as a teenager.

449
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 2: One of them was a prominent artist named Glenn Wessels,

450
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 2: who was a professor at the California College of Arts

451
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 2: and You See Berkeley. Wessels eventually convinced Kincaid to pursue

452
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 2: art as a career and go to UC Berkeley. Now,

453
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 2: the story of Glenn and Thomas is a load bearing

454
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 2: piece of the Thomas Kincaid story, so much so that

455
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight it became the subject of

456
00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 2: a Christmas biopic titled Thomas Kincaid's Christmas Cottage. Peter O'Toole

457
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 2: plays Glenn, and in a shocking twist, Thomas Kincaid is

458
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 2: played by Jared Padilechi aka the less Interesting brother from Supernatural.

459
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 2: Really really, I was shocked as hell to see.

460
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 3: That that's some that's not where I thought that was

461
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 3: gonna go.

462
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 2: Neither did I. It's like right at the start of

463
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 2: the series. Jared Padialachi too, So I am.

464
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 3: So sorry, but I am absolute Looking up screenshots of

465
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 3: that movie.

466
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 2: People say it's okay. The audience store is sixty two percent.

467
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 1: I can't believe they had Rory Gilmore as a worst boyfriend.

468
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, he's clearly the worst Winchester brother, Sophie gezor

469
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,360
Speaker 2: boyfriend between us.

470
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, look at that movie.

471
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 2: Also like it's it's by any count, Like it's what's

472
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 2: the word I'm looking for. It's a compliment to have

473
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 2: Jared Padileki in two thousand and six cast as you

474
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 2: in the movie about your your adolescent or your young adulthood.

475
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 2: But also like, I'm sorry, Thomas Kincaid, you don't look

476
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: like Jared Padillachi.

477
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 3: What are we talking about here, Thomas No, absolutely, Sophie

478
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 3: pulled that up because the people need to see, like

479
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 3: the toe with a beard, he does.

480
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 2: Not look like two thousand and six Jared Batileki.

481
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 3: No, No, he doesn't.

482
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 2: Two thousand and six Future Walker Texas Ranger disastrous idea

483
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 2: for a reboot. Jared Padileki, Oh my god, there's so fun.

484
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 2: Oh there's a picture of a mullet.

485
00:25:51,760 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, that man knows the street value of Merbie.

486
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: Rory Gilmore is the worst boyfriend.

487
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,479
Speaker 2: He could be Rory Gilmore's worst boyfriend, but Rory Gilmore

488
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 2: would have had to have several hard years first.

489
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 3: He looks like a pretending to be straight and trailer

490
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 3: park version of Glenn Shandox, who was Otho and Beatlejuice.

491
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 2: What a very specific comparison. You know, thank you.

492
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 3: Who should have played him because he was an amazing actor.

493
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 2: Yeah and so damn anyway, real quick, Yeah, speaking of

494
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 2: Jared Padaluchi. This podcast is sponsored by Devan Dart.

495
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,360
Speaker 1: I thought you're gonna say your worst boyfriend.

496
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 2: I was making I was making a supernatural fandom joke.

497
00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just think of the worst, most upset adding

498
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 3: furry fetish stuff that someone can inflict on it.

499
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 2: Oh, you can find some great furry fetish supernatural cross

500
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 2: art good stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, fine, fight.

501
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 3: For super natural supernatural.

502
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 2: Yeah h yeah, super fur natural damn. Yeah, there's probably

503
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 2: a whole convention based around that. Anyway, if you're if

504
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 2: you're a member of the supernatural furry Pornography fandom. This

505
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 2: has been your lucky day on Behind the Bastards. Here's

506
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 2: some ads. We're back anyway. Uh so, yeah, I don't

507
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 2: know about this movie, but what one reviewer calls it

508
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: overly sentimental and overly acted, yet surprisingly enjoyable, which corresponds

509
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 2: to how a lot of people feel about Thomas's artwork.

510
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 3: Right.

511
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 2: You could say that about every Kincaid painting. It's cloingly

512
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 2: sweet and it drips with enough nostalgia to clog your arteries,

513
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 2: but there is something compelling about it. This may be

514
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 2: it's like that. That is kind of the thing about

515
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 2: it is, like, it's not it's wal art. It's the

516
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 2: kind of shit you'd see in a hotel, except most

517
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 2: of the kind of shit you'd see in a hotel

518
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 2: you would never look at or think about again, Thomas Kinkaid,

519
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 2: there is something about them, right, There is something interesting

520
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 2: going on here. I'm not saying that like it's good

521
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: or artistically, you know, brilliant, but there's there's a reason

522
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 2: different groups of people obsessively edit and modify kincad art.

523
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 2: Like there's a couple of different subcultures based around that.

524
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 2: You can find a lot of his work with like

525
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 2: eldritch horrors and elder gods added in as in, So

526
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 2: he's going to show you this Thomas Kincaid lighthouse paired

527
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 2: with Cthulhu.

528
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's gorgeous.

529
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: It works pretty well. Yeah, Like it's a much better

530
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 2: painting when you throw Cthulhu in there.

531
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: Not matters.

532
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. And while Thomas Kinkaid's stuff, they do a Star

533
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 2: Wars imprint. There's been like a fan thing where people

534
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: will take his borderline surreal landscapes and cabin paintings and

535
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: turn them into this sits of colorful Star Wars battles,

536
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 2: as you can see here in this painting of a

537
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: Thomas Kincaid cottage with a pair of Ataight's not bad.

538
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 2: Not bad.

539
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 3: I've seen that one before.

540
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: Yeahh surprisingly they kind of fit in, like it is.

541
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 2: That doesn't work. It doesn't look jarring, right.

542
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 3: The worst part is that looks better than all the

543
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 3: official Thomas can Cad Star.

544
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 2: Wars so much battling, so much better.

545
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 3: God, like that is depressing.

546
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Anyway, Thomas moves on to another art school after

547
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 2: two years at Berkeley, and it's somewhere in this period

548
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 2: like when he kind of leaves Berkeley to go to

549
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 2: this outher art school. That there's a major shift in

550
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 2: his personality right around the same time he leaves, because

551
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 2: the next art school he goes to is in Pasadena.

552
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: At age twenty, he undergoes what Sue or Lean described

553
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: as a Christian awakening. Quote. It changed his art. It

554
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 2: stopped being about his fears and anxieties and became optimistic

555
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 2: and inspirational with themes like hometowns and perfect days and

556
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 2: natural beauty. And millions of people responded. Now, this is

557
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 2: what Sue writes to The New Yorker, this is what

558
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 2: Thomas claims. I don't know that I think this is true.

559
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not right, because this

560
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 2: is a very If you've spent a lot of time

561
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: at like revivals, if you've seen a lot of like

562
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: Christian evangelical speeches, this is how they all go.

563
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 3: Right.

564
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 2: Usually sometime when I'm in college, I was surrounded by

565
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: this degeneracy. But then like I had this and it

566
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 2: changed everything. Once I, you know, once I you know,

567
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: saw the truth and accepted Jesus, Like my whole life

568
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,959
Speaker 2: was different. Right. That's how these stories go. That's not

569
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: really how real life usually works, right, and it's not

570
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: how art usually works. But we'll start. I'm going to

571
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: tell you the real story, which is much more interesting

572
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: and involves Ralph Bakshi. Uh so, oh god, damn it. Yeah,

573
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: you goddamn right. But first, I'm going to tell the

574
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 2: version of the story that Thomas Kinkaid, once he becomes

575
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 2: a business empire, wants everyone to believe.

576
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 3: Now, I really want one of his pains that Frits

577
00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 3: the cat put in it, so that.

578
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 2: If only fire and ice put a pin in that one.

579
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: By the way, so Sue describes, first, let's go with

580
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 2: Thomas's story, because this is what he wants people to believe.

581
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 2: So Sue Orlean, in her profile for The New Yorker,

582
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 2: describes how the company he created to tell his art

583
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 2: tended to tell the story of Thomas's development. From this point,

584
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: it's as good as story as you could hope for.

585
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: If you want to make a point about perseverance and

586
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 2: pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and appreciating life's bounty.

587
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 2: Even the bad parts of the story are good because

588
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 2: it's easier not to begrudge Kincaid his fortune when you

589
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: were reminded that he was a poor kid who had

590
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 2: to struggle, who rejected the smarty pants liberal establishment to

591
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: follow his heart, and he was proud of having earned

592
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 2: his way into the ultimate American aristocracy of successful entrepreneurs.

593
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: So basically, he's saying, like, yeah, I had this Christian awakening.

594
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 2: They wanted me to do all these sad paintings about

595
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: my fears and nightmares and insecurities. But I knew that

596
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 2: real art, you know, it should uplift people. It should

597
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: be about values, the real classic American values, And I

598
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: broke with the art establishment then at age twenty. That

599
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: is not at all what happens, demonstrably not the actual story.

600
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 2: So here's the actual story. In the summer of nineteen eighty,

601
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 2: Thomas Kincaid goes on a road trip with a friend,

602
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 2: his buddy and fellow artist, James Gurney, and they wind

603
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 2: up in New York City, where Thomas talks his way

604
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 2: into getting a book deal with James. They publish a

605
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: Guide to Sketching, which sold very well and is apparently

606
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 2: a pretty good guide to sketch art. Does the name

607
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: James Gurney mean anything to you?

608
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 3: Not? Really? No?

609
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: Okay, good, I think you'll recognize his work when we

610
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 2: get to that point. So this book that he and

611
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 2: James writes is enough of a hit that it gets

612
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,239
Speaker 2: the attention of one of the country's most talented and

613
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 2: insane artists, a man named Ralph Bakshi. Now, if you

614
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: have not seen his movies like Fritz the Cat and

615
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 2: American Pop, Bakshi was a devotee of a type of

616
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 2: animation called rodoscoping, but he also wrote asks uping involves

617
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: these kind of like weird it's a weird method of

618
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: like filming actual people, but it also measures in with

619
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 2: traditional animation, which you use for the backgrounds for like

620
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: monsters and stuff. Great great ship.

621
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 3: You did the first to animate Lord of the Rings movies.

622
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's that's kind of probably his most well

623
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 2: known stuff, and it's often like Bakshi style, it's often garish,

624
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 2: it's often grotesque. There's these distorted people in animals, but

625
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 2: there's this kind of magnetism to his work. Nonetheless that

626
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: I you know, a lot of people including me, have

627
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 2: always found like very intriguing. Bakshi saw talent.

628
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 3: It's a very weird guy.

629
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 2: He's a very weird guy, but especially Consered.

630
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 3: His career started in terry tunes like Heckel and Jackyal

631
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 3: and all that shit, and the nineteen sixties Spider Man

632
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 3: cartoon no shit, And it went from that to doing

633
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 3: Fritz Yeah, the Spider Man pointing each other meme. That's

634
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 3: I believe that's.

635
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 2: The boxhi, okay, okay. Interesting.

636
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 3: Then he started doing all his adult cartoons in the seventies,

637
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 3: in the early eighties.

638
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then we.

639
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 3: Got the You Will Never See Again nineteen eighty nine's

640
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 3: Mighty Mouse cartoon. Yeah, with the cocaine reference.

641
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Bakshi's blood was about sixty percent cocaine.

642
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 2: Through the entirety of the nineteen eighties.

643
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 3: John Chris Belushi was working on that.

644
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 2: One's for you, Yes, yeah, yeah, that'll be our probably

645
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 2: maybe our next episode the rin and Stimpy Guy Jesus

646
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,439
Speaker 2: but bok. She sees talent in Thomas and he hires

647
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 2: him and Gurney to work on his new film nineteen

648
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,879
Speaker 2: eighty threes, Fire and Ice, which you.

649
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 3: Had just brought up, guess.

650
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 2: Thomas Kinkaid does a lot of the background art in

651
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 2: Fire and Ice. A lot of the environment is drawn

652
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: by Kincaid, Yeah, and by Gurney.

653
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 1: You know.

654
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 2: Gurney does a good amount of that too. And if

655
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 2: you haven't seen Fire and Ice, folks, I recommend you do.

656
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 2: It's a great movie. Maybe take some substances first, if

657
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: you're a substance taking kind of person. It's Bruce Flanne

658
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 2: Oh right, it's Vallejo, Bruce Valleeho, who did like a

659
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 2: lot of the most iconic Conan art. Sorry, Frank Frizzetta,

660
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 2: not Bruce Falleo. Yeah, it's Frank Frizetta who did who

661
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: did take a lot of Conan. And it's written by

662
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 2: a couple of guys who had done Conan, the Barbarian comics. Right,

663
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 2: So that this movie Fire and Ice is really it's

664
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 2: one of those, like one of these films that's kind

665
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 2: of a prism because a lot of different careers break

666
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 2: out after it. Right, There's a lot of people who

667
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 2: are going to go on to do very different but

668
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 2: influential things, who get, you know, part of their start

669
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 2: from Fire and Ice. So, Bakshi and Frizetta handle the

670
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: live action shots for the action sequences, well, Gurney and

671
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 2: Kinkaid do a lot of the background paintings, and the

672
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 2: project gives Thomas a lot of heat credits. In his

673
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 2: official story, Oh, I had this Christian awakening and it

674
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: convinced me. You know, I'm this painter of light and whatnot.

675
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 2: But you see in Fire and Ice a lot of

676
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,439
Speaker 2: him playing with fog in the way light affects landscapes.

677
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 2: But you know, I've got a couple of clip in

678
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 2: here for you in a way that it is kind

679
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 2: of like you see a lot of fog in Kincaid's

680
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 2: later paintings. You see a lot of the same kind

681
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 2: of use of light. Like it's not really surprising when

682
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:11,959
Speaker 2: you know this case.

683
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 3: It's the backgrounds are stunning. I remember that the movie.

684
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 2: He's very beautiful film. Yeah, and again, Fire and Ice

685
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 2: is one of these quietly influential films where a lot

686
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 2: of people who made shit you love got their start.

687
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: Thomas's friend, James Gurney, his co author, goes on from

688
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: this project to create, write, and illustrate the Dinotopia series.

689
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 2: That's who Gurny is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's James Garny, right,

690
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 2: who I was a big fan of that as a kid. Right.

691
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,439
Speaker 2: The layout artist for Fire and Light Ice was Peter Chung,

692
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 2: who later created a on Flux. Okay, yeah, yeah, Roy Thomas,

693
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 2: one of the writers created the character vision for Marvel

694
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: as well as ghost Writer and fucking Morbius.

695
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Like, that's a lot of talent in

696
00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 3: one film.

697
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 2: It really is.

698
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: Is.

699
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, we were this close to getting u Oh, what's that?

700
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 2: What's that creepy sex criminal who's in the Morbius movie?

701
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:08,439
Speaker 2: I'm spacing on his name?

702
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 3: Oh, Letto Jared Leto.

703
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, we were this close to getting Jared Leto played

704
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 2: Thomas Kincaid in a movie. You know, there's still time.

705
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: There's still time Letto to.

706
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: Be doing that weird cold thing that he does.

707
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 3: Oh.

708
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: Also, the other co writer of Fire and Ice, Jerry Conway,

709
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 2: co created Killer Crock. So you know, again, a lot

710
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 2: of influential people in this movie. Yes, a lot of

711
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 2: load bearing parts of the culture come out of Fire

712
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 2: and Ice.

713
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 3: Plains it's a good movie, I guess.

714
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great, fucking awesome movie. Yes. So, on one hand,

715
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 2: Fire and iceed artists gave us a whole host of

716
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 2: Marvel characters, several of whom have movies Dinotopia and aon Flux.

717
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 2: And on the other hand, we have Thomas Kincaid, a

718
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 2: man who twenty years later would be declared by a

719
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 2: Salon writer, the George W. Bush of art. This is

720
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 2: before George W. Bush became the George W. Bush of art.

721
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 3: That's kind of hurt a little bit too.

722
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, poor George W. Bush the most the greatest suffering

723
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: artist today.

724
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 3: Truly, yea, truly, no one has ever suffered more.

725
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 2: It would be really funny if he had, like a

726
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 2: if he'd gone like all full Warhol on it, Like

727
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 2: if George W. Bush were throwing these big warehouse parties

728
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 2: in New York and like like like literally just like

729
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 2: shooting up ketamine into his veins. That's the George Bush

730
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 2: we all deserve to get and steadies just rich and

731
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 2: lives in Dallas. So this version of the story, the

732
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 2: one where you know, Thomas Kincaid gets his big break

733
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 2: on a massive animated production and he comes right away

734
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,720
Speaker 2: from it changed. I think that's more the real story

735
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,439
Speaker 2: than the sudden Christian awakening thing. After Fire and Ice,

736
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 2: he starts working a lot more with light and landscapes

737
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: and fog and mist, and he warps his style from

738
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 2: a sort of restrained realism to this more fantastic and

739
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: surreal look. Now, Thomas likes the art he's making, but

740
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: it isn't really selling because people don't really buy a

741
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 2: lot of art, you know, like not enough that he

742
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 2: can live the kind of life that he wants to live. Right,

743
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: he probably, of.

744
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 3: All the paintings I have sold, I've sold more prints

745
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 3: than I've ever sold a paintings. Yes, well, it's definitely

746
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 3: made more money off Prince than Nasal originals, you know.

747
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 2: To be honest, Kincaid may be part of why the

748
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 2: business does work that way, or at least, you know,

749
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 2: maybe he's just it's probably more accurate to say he

750
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 2: realized that and figured out how to do it at

751
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 2: scale very quickly. So Thomas he might have been able

752
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 2: to make a place in the art world for himself

753
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 2: or in Hollywood for himself given enough time. But he

754
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 2: understood number one that like that kind of work was

755
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: never going to be regular enough or profitable enough for

756
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 2: him to get the kind of rich that he wanted

757
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 2: to be as a former poor kid. And he also

758
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 2: is aware as he starts trying to sell and display

759
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 2: his art that like critics don't like it. They think

760
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 2: that it looks either like chloyingly or on the more

761
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 2: fantastic side, like something you'd see in a conan comic, right,

762
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: and that's not something like art critics are going to

763
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: be bullish A No, they do.

764
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 3: Not like that. It's yeah, definitely the least favorite thing

765
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 3: to come across.

766
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know they're co bad guys in this.

767
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 2: I I try to there's criticism. I will try to

768
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 2: repeat the criticism of Kincaid that I think is good

769
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 2: and not just the stuff that's like clearly some guy

770
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 2: who wishes that like he were still huffing Andy Warhol's

771
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: fucking few.

772
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 3: Yes, there are definitely a lot of art critics who

773
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 3: if you mentioned landscape, it's just immediately those two hatred.

774
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 3: Like it's like a switch.

775
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's them. Yeah, same with same.

776
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 3: With certain mediums. Like if you tell certain like oh

777
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 3: I do water cooler, they're like, oh, okay, see paint flowers.

778
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 2: Yeah no. Well, and you know, I wonder if, because

779
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 2: we just talked about how there is some interesting stuff

780
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,399
Speaker 2: being done by people who modify Concaid paintings, I wonder

781
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 2: if part of like the message there and the message

782
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 2: with Fire and Ice, is that this was never a

783
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 2: man whose work should have existed on it right, like

784
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 2: he could he could be part of good things when

785
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 2: he was a part of it, right when people were

786
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: like using his backgrounds and adding and putting things on them.

787
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 2: There was like a way in wait, like he was

788
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 2: actually part of some interesting art. But on his own,

789
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: you know, that's just not not a lot there anyway.

790
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 2: He gets kind of enraged at an early age that

791
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 2: his art is dismissed by these critics, and Kincaid himself

792
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 2: would always insist that, like because a big one of

793
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 2: the big criticisms he'll get is that his stuff is

794
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 2: just too pleasant, right, there's no no emotion behind it,

795
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 2: there's nothing complex behind it. And can Kaid's develops this

796
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 2: attitude that, well, art shouldn't be about complex emotions or pain.

797
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 2: Art exists to make people feel good, and if it

798
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 2: doesn't make people feel good, then it's not good art.

799
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 2: He later wrote, every element in my paintings, from the

800
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 2: patch of sun and the foreground to the mists on

801
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,399
Speaker 2: a distant horizon, is an effort to summon back those

802
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 2: perfect moments that hang in our minds as pictures of harmony.

803
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,280
Speaker 2: My deepest is that my work will help people despire

804
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 2: to the life those kinds of images evoke, And I

805
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 2: do think a valid criticism is that, like, Yeah, if

806
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: you're focused on your art only making people feel good, well,

807
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 2: that's not really very complicated or interesting art to a

808
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 2: lot of people.

809
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 3: I know, I don't disagree with them. I think that

810
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 3: there's a validity to this is just starting to make

811
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 3: you happy. Yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with that.

812
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 3: I do think I disagree with them that all art

813
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 3: has to make you feel good, because my brain went

814
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 3: to various Norman Rockwell paintings that were about integration. They're

815
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 3: very horrific images, or the one about them three pro

816
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 3: right civil rights activists who are murdered, painting about them,

817
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 3: and like, that didn't make me feel good, but damn

818
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 3: it was a hell of a painting and it really

819
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 3: did evoke his rage at what happened to these young men.

820
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 2: And I think that's a great comparison to make, because

821
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 2: Norman Rockwell is a guy who gets compared to Kincaid

822
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 2: a lot, and there are some similarities in there's a

823
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 2: lot of kind of fifties small town vibe aesthetics to

824
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 2: both guys. But Rockwell was always very willing to make

825
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 2: art that made a political point and that had emotion

826
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 2: behind it, and that was trying to say something, And

827
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 2: the only thing Kincaid stuff has ever said is like,

828
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 2: isn't it nice to be at home in your small town?

829
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 2: Aren't cabins great? You know, here's a sunset.

830
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 3: People tend to dismiss Rockwell's like, oh, like for cute

831
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 3: kitchen stuff and he did da but like he did

832
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 3: do angrier paintings and talked about like yeah, well, I

833
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 3: mean he did paintings for the Saturday ning posts, so

834
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 3: the love of them had to be about modern current events.

835
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's kind of a good

836
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 2: way to sort of divide the two men for folks

837
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,240
Speaker 2: who maybe aren't as familiar with their uvras. Is Kincaid

838
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 2: is kind of violently against the idea that his art

839
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 2: should mean anything but comfort, and Rockwell was somebody who

840
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 2: felt that art could make a point and could make

841
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 2: people think and feel critically about things. Yeah, So Thomas Kinkaid,

842
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 2: the kind of what we're building to here is with

843
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 2: this this he's kind of discreet. He has his brush

844
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 2: with Hollywood, but it doesn't really take He gets disgruntled,

845
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 2: critics don't like his work. It's not selling, And you know,

846
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 2: it's kind of interesting to me that from all of this,

847
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: he comes to a series of understandings and it kind

848
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 2: of he kind of becomes the first man to understand

849
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: and provide the underpinnings of what is now the most

850
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 2: viral kind of art in our culture, the stuff that

851
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 2: we now call Facebook AI boomer art. If you go

852
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 2: on Facebook today, you'll get pages and pages of obvious

853
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 2: AI art filled with comments from an even mix of

854
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 2: old people in bots saying how happy it made them.

855
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 2: Thomas Kinkaid is the first guy to realize that this

856
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 2: is going to be a thing and figure out how

857
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,479
Speaker 2: to monetize on it before the internet's really a thing,

858
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 2: before AI certainly is a thing, Like you get. I'm

859
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 2: showing you a couple examples like this obviously fake baby

860
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 2: and little dog. This made me smile so sweet. You

861
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: know this soldier, no one is thanking me, is thinking,

862
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 2: no one thank is for service. Uh yeah, there's a

863
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: crying soldier saluted with his back turns to an American family.

864
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 2: There's a baby crying. It's like a little deranged baby.

865
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 3: Is like, there's not a steering wheel.

866
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 2: It's it's it's very it's a deranged piece of art.

867
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 2: And you know, kincaid stuff was always a lot simpler

868
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 2: than this. But it's the you know, you get this

869
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 2: sort of like here's a sad soldier saluting it a flag,

870
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,720
Speaker 2: you know, walking home. It's always vaguely patriotic, but without

871
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 2: like yeah I scrolled, Yeah yeah, I'm building to like

872
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 2: kincaid stuff and all of this weird Ai boomera. It's

873
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:57,879
Speaker 2: all stuff that's vaguely patriotic. It's usually paired with texts Jesus. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

874
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 2: it's got cat ears in the last but phoo, but

875
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 2: you almost you see. The kind of shine to them

876
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 2: reminds me a lot of Kincaid's stuff too, like, and

877
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 2: I wonder if that's just that there's so much of

878
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 2: his DNA and all of these models.

879
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: I like the one with the baby, Yeah baby, they're

880
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: all the ones with the baby. Yes, but the one

881
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: with the baby with Jesus and the baby have one

882
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 1: hand and they're taking a selfie because babies can hold

883
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:25,919
Speaker 1: things like that.

884
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jesus has a Lenovo's smartphone from twenty sixteen.

885
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 3: Yes, I desperately want to photoshop and nail into that

886
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:34,760
Speaker 3: Jesus wrist.

887
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 2: I don't know why, where's the sting on fucking AI.

888
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 1: The kiss is unsettling.

889
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 2: It's all unsettling. Yeah, it all shares for the same

890
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 2: reason that Thomas's stuff was popular, which is that you

891
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 2: get these kind of when there is a message, it's

892
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 2: usually a very vague level of like conservative grievance, you know,

893
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 2: over the state of the world. But mostly it's either

894
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 2: stuff that makes you feel good or stuff that makes

895
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 2: you feel nostalgic and doesn't really have anything else going

896
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 2: for it. And he recognized that like this is something

897
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 2: just as like this stuff has absolutely dominated people's Facebook walls,

898
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 2: boomer Facebook walls, his art dominated the literal walls in

899
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 2: their house, right, Like there's a connection between these two things,

900
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 2: between the kind of AI slop that goes viral, and

901
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 2: between Thomas Kinkaid and the way he used light and

902
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 2: color and the kinds of things he picks his subjects

903
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 2: for his art. This sort of like cozy scenes of

904
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 2: American and family life with incoherent patriotism and off putting

905
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 2: hyper commercialized Christianity. Right, all of that stuff together is

906
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 2: Thomas Kinkaid, and he is he sees how much potential

907
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 2: there is in this, right that the real way to

908
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 2: make a lot of money isn't in making art that

909
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 2: you're trying to impress critics with or sell to some

910
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 2: rich guy. It's making stuff like this that you can

911
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 2: tug at whatever it is in the brain of these

912
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 2: conservative boomers and make fucking all of the money on Earth.

913
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 2: And I can't stop myself because as soon as I

914
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 2: started really digging into more Kincaid's work, I started thinking

915
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 2: about all of this AI shit that every time I

916
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 2: hop onto Facebook to get in you know, get in

917
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 2: touch with a family member or something that i'ven't seen

918
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 2: in ten years, I see a bunch of this shit.

919
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 2: I see endless seas of this shit, and so I

920
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,439
Speaker 2: am kind of I'm going to kind of repeatedly make

921
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 2: reference to it, and I think it's worth looking into

922
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: when we kind of compare to Thomas saying I think

923
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 2: that my art should be about making people feel good.

924
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 2: That that's all that you know, it really matters, right,

925
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 2: I don't want any more complex than that. That's exactly

926
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 2: what's going on with the actual human beings who are

927
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 2: generating this AI art right. Four oh four Media has

928
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 2: done some really good reporting on the origins of these

929
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:53,959
Speaker 2: baffling viral images, and a huge number of them seem

930
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: to originate from India. They're spread via copy pasted prompts

931
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 2: and telegram groups and are often a little incoherent because

932
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 2: authors will run the prompts through text to speech in Hindi.

933
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 2: That's why a lot of like the language doesn't quite work.

934
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 2: And there are even influencers who will like teach people

935
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,359
Speaker 2: how to put together viral prompts for money, and their

936
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 2: explanations of what images work and why are very kincadie. Right,

937
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 2: here's one quote from one of these guys. Photos of

938
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 2: poor people are good. Anything that touches the heart, Cute babies, children,

939
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 2: This is getting us a lot of good engagement people

940
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 2: in the US and in foreign countries. They love their

941
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 2: pets and other animals. There are many pet lovers who

942
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 2: live there. Right, It's just all of this stuff that

943
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 2: gives you these kind of vague good vibes feelings. Right.

944
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 2: Thomas Kinkaid is the proof of concept for how much

945
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 2: money there is in this sort of thing. That's why

946
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 2: all of the that's why there's this cottage industry and

947
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 2: generating shit like this.

948
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, cottage industry. Out's a good for His paintings is amazing. Yeah,

949
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 3: I mean also, I think part of it is, like

950
00:49:57,600 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 3: it doesn't just makes you feel good, it ma should

951
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 3: feel safe. He touched a hole. How many was have

952
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 3: like older relatives a post like pictures of remember back

953
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 3: when you knew things were okay and you can leave

954
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 3: your door unlocked yeh, Like hey, no I don't, and

955
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 3: like yes, experience about that, Like no, we always locked

956
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 3: our doors. Yeah, like my dad lived out in the

957
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 3: middle of nowhere, Arkansas, Like we still locked our doors,

958
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 3: didn't trust people.

959
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 2: Well, fucking blood came out when you know, Like, yeah.

960
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,720
Speaker 3: It's definitely it. Hearkened to that whole, like the rose

961
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 3: tinted glass view that I'm beginning to seeing algen xers

962
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 3: start also throwing out there, like oh, back when we

963
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:38,399
Speaker 3: drink out of the water hose and our parents lists

964
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:40,760
Speaker 3: played the sunset, Like yeah, that wasn't great.

965
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 2: Yeah you were just a child, but it wasn't like

966
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 2: a better time, but that that feeling that we didn't

967
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 2: used to have to lock our doors, Like Kincaid in

968
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,839
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety bottles that feeling right and finds a way

969
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 2: to sell it back to people at scale, right, and

970
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 2: that is kind that is the source of his wealth.

971
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 2: Speaking of selling things. Robert, Yeah, speaking of the source

972
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 2: of our wealth. Here's some advertisers. Ah, and we're back

973
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 2: so highwave patrol. Obviously, Thomas Kinkaid did not foresee AI art.

974
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 2: He was not trying to lead us there, but his

975
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 2: instincts kind of made it very clear how much money

976
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 2: there is in pushing out this slop. So he is

977
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 2: I think he counts as a granddaddy to this. And

978
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:33,479
Speaker 2: I want to read a quote from The Daily Beast

979
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,879
Speaker 2: kind of talking about how he thought of his art.

980
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 2: Kincaid thought the art world had become detached from the public,

981
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 2: and he saw himself as the person to return it

982
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 2: to an artist's servant model, where painters affirmed rather than challenged,

983
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,959
Speaker 2: social values. His hero was Andy Warhol, who he felt

984
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 2: had rescued art from insolarrity and and infused it with

985
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 2: iconography that meant something to ordinary people. What Warhol did

986
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 2: with soup cans and Marilyn Monroe, Kincaid thought he could

987
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 2: do with Eden inspired garden scenes and Cotswold cottages. And

988
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 2: that's wild to me that he's like listing Warhol as

989
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 2: an influence, because I think Andy Warhol would be deeply,

990
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 2: deeply disturbed by that fact, which I'm.

991
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 3: Fine, Yeah, Liten, like I see Liechtenstein appreciating it because

992
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 3: he was all about the industrial system for art. But yeah, Warhol,

993
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 3: I don't know, like the guy who did the a

994
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 3: movie that got him shot.

995
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah he did? Oh Andy?

996
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, good job Andy.

997
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 2: Great guy. So by nineteen eighty nine, Thomas Kincaid is married,

998
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 2: he's starting a family, and he can't get by on

999
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 2: piece work and the very occasional sale of a painting.

1000
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 2: So he reaches out. He has this idea, I want

1001
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 2: to sell prints of my my, you know, cloying paintings

1002
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 2: to a mass middle American audience. And he reaches out

1003
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 2: to this guy kN Rash, a California entrepreneur, and he's like, hey,

1004
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 2: I'm already selling five grand in prints every month, and

1005
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 2: I think with some capital behind me, I could start

1006
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 2: a real business. Now this is fraud. He's committing fraud

1007
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 2: here because his actual sales are closer to zero dollars.

1008
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 2: But Rash, I'm not sure if just gets lucky or

1009
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 2: if he's got some sort of entrepreneur brain and he

1010
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 2: sees the potential. But he gives Thomas thirty five thousand

1011
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 2: dollars its startup capital.

1012
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 3: Jesus.

1013
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 2: Now, this is a story that should end in a

1014
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 2: series of lawsuits and Thomas fleeing the country. But to

1015
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:36,320
Speaker 2: everyone's surprise, but theirs, this works. This is a great investment.

1016
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 2: The fact that Thomas hes does launch a con to

1017
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 2: start it does not harm the business in any way.

1018
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:48,760
Speaker 2: It shoots off like a rocket. Some of this oh yeah, yeah,

1019
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 2: I started a con and it worked is the origin

1020
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 2: of almost every fortune. Oh of course, no, yes, absolutely, yes,

1021
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 2: he's he's a he's a hardcore conservative. Yes. Now, some

1022
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 2: of this business had to do with Kincaid's personal allure, right,

1023
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,879
Speaker 2: that's part of why this works. He is a charismatic guy.

1024
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:09,280
Speaker 2: He's good at.

1025
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 3: Such Again, I remember that picture of him with a

1026
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:12,879
Speaker 3: fucking mullet, I mean, not a lore.

1027
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:14,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would pull.

1028
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 3: My child away from this man on the street. I don't.

1029
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're not. It's that there's this weird revival

1030
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,840
Speaker 2: thing too, where like if you're doing Yeah.

1031
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 3: I grew up in southern Baptist I remember going to

1032
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 3: a bunch of revivals at at football stadiums Okay.

1033
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 2: A lot of money.

1034
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 3: It's always that that slick suit and the slipped back

1035
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 3: hair and folks well, folksy story to make all the

1036
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,319
Speaker 3: older people feel a bit better and like let's talk

1037
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 3: about how we've lost our way.

1038
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 2: Or you can be I think what he does is

1039
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 2: he's the guy who looks a little bit on the edge,

1040
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 2: like he might have at one point been you know,

1041
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 2: more of a kind of like a little dangerous, right,

1042
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 2: but like now he's the spirit of the Lord, right, Yeah,

1043
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 2: like I was. I was in the It's the Alex

1044
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 2: Jones things, like I've been in the depths of Hollywood.

1045
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 2: I know the real evils, you know, because he was

1046
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 2: in a couple of leak letter movies. I think that's

1047
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:08,800
Speaker 2: probably part.

1048
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 3: All the times, like revivals. It was like Elvis's step

1049
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,760
Speaker 3: brother or half brother who showed up as a speaker. Yeah,

1050
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,760
Speaker 3: talking about like I know the evils of this, Like, dude,

1051
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 3: who the fuck are you?

1052
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 2: You just know that that's the only only money for

1053
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 2: Elvis's step brother in today. Yeah.

1054
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:27,919
Speaker 3: Uh.

1055
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 2: So he and Rash name their company Lighthouse Publishing. Uh

1056
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 2: and they list their they state their goal like the

1057
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,840
Speaker 2: company mission is to engulf as many hearts as possible

1058
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 2: with art, which, in a very concaid fashion, is vaguely

1059
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 2: similar or sinister. There's a problem, though, Thomas has realized

1060
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 2: correctly that a lot of middle Americans want the kind

1061
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 2: of things that signal wealth, like having original artwork hanging

1062
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 2: in your home. But you can't really make actual paintings

1063
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 2: that people want to buy at a rate fast enough

1064
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 2: to make serious money, selling them to people who are

1065
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 2: not insanely rich, and using that art as attack shelter. Right,

1066
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 2: if you're selling your originals, you can only sell so

1067
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:08,439
Speaker 2: much art, and if you're selling your originals to people

1068
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,919
Speaker 2: who aren't rich, you're just not going to get rich.

1069
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 2: But the value of art is in its exclusivity, and

1070
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 2: Thomas realized that when you're dealing with people who aren't

1071
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 2: in the out, who aren't in the art world, it's

1072
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 2: easy to fake exclusivity because people are dumb. So he

1073
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 2: starts utilizing a printing process that mimics the look of

1074
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 2: a real painting. As sewer Lean describes, a digital image

1075
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 2: could also be soaked in water, peeled off the paper,

1076
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 2: and a fixed to a stretched canvas so that it

1077
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 2: showed the texture of the canvas in a way in

1078
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 2: the way a real painting would. Right, So that's step

1079
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 2: one but a print that looks like it has the

1080
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 2: texture of a painting is still just a print. So

1081
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 2: if you're going to sell thousands of them, people aren't

1082
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 2: going to pay a lot for them. So Thomas has

1083
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,360
Speaker 2: another idea. He has to make them unique, but in

1084
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:56,760
Speaker 2: a way that he can mass produce. So he hires

1085
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 2: and trains up an entire factory full of what he

1086
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:03,760
Speaker 2: calls master highlighters to come in and add small bits

1087
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 2: of paint, like they'll paint over a single tree on

1088
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 2: the print, or a little patch of snow or a

1089
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 2: rock or something, and now you technically have an original

1090
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 2: piece of art. Now you've got something you can market

1091
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 2: not just as decor for the home, but as an

1092
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 2: investment vehicle to rooms. Right, And that's the key to

1093
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 2: the Thomas Kincaid story. It's not just that his art

1094
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 2: comforts people. It's that he convinces them that they will

1095
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 2: make money if they buy it. Just like all of

1096
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 2: the rich con artists they admire.

1097
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 3: A great This is an investment. It's an investment, but

1098
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 3: like it's not one of those scary paintings that you

1099
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 3: hear about it at least like, yeah, it's a paint

1100
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 3: that you love that makes you feel safe, and you

1101
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 3: can pass it on to your children. It'll be worth

1102
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 3: so much money.

1103
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 2: It's going to keep appreciating value because look, somebody painted

1104
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 2: that tree in the corner. So this is an original,

1105
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 2: unique piece of work. There's not another one like it

1106
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 2: any are in the world. This is a safe place

1107
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 2: to park your children's inheritance. And you know he's not

1108
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 2: just he's selling these through They launch a series of galleries, right,

1109
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 2: which are art retail establishments. Right They only initially they

1110
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 2: only sell Thomas's work, and they they are they are

1111
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 2: operated individually, kind of like a McDonald's franchise, so like

1112
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 2: independent people franchise kincaid galleries. So he gets them taking

1113
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 2: on the financial risk he gets he's convincing other people

1114
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 2: to take on the financial risk of building a brick

1115
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 2: and mortar or of operating a brick and mortar to

1116
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 2: sell his work. But he gets a cut of every

1117
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 2: sale that they make. And he'll like he'll send his

1118
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 2: Master highlighters out to individual stores to do live events.

1119
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 2: He'll go do speaking engagements and sign prints there. All

1120
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 2: of this creates a pretty viable business. And I really

1121
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 2: need to lean into how much of a scam it is,

1122
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 2: so I want to quote again from that New Yorker article, which.

1123
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 3: It reminds me of Liechtenstein, who has few whom create

1124
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 3: art for him, but he got to put his name

1125
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 3: on it.

1126
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, And there's other guys who have done parts

1127
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 2: of it. I think the degree to which Kincaid turns

1128
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 2: this into like an actual factory, mechanized business based entirely

1129
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 2: around him, especially at the time he does it, is

1130
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 2: fairly unique. Again, he is playing with things. He's not

1131
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 2: the only guy doing style. He's not the only guy

1132
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:26,120
Speaker 2: who ever does this highlighting thing, but he is the

1133
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 2: first to do it at scale and make tens of

1134
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 2: millions of dollars off of it. Right, this becomes more

1135
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 2: standard as a result of him, and to highlight kind

1136
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 2: of the degree to which these people are being scammed

1137
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 2: into thinking they're buying an investment. I want to in

1138
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 2: that New Yorker article, it quotes the manager of one

1139
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 2: of Thomas's galleries talking a customer through a purchase. You're

1140
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 2: building a great portfolio. They're nice investments, and this one's

1141
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 2: almost sold out, and they do have a history of appreciation.

1142
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 2: We have some secondary market pieces here, this one Julianne's

1143
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 2: Cottage was released for a few hundred dollars in nineteen

1144
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 2: ninety two, and now it's thirty seven hundred and thirty dollars.

1145
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,760
Speaker 2: So that's a big part of the promise, this will

1146
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 2: appreciate you're really making money, you know. And I think

1147
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 2: that that is a key aspect of it. It's not

1148
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 2: just that these people like comforting art. It's that they're

1149
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 2: being convinced that their greed is being played with two

1150
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 2: right babies. Yes, it's exactly Beanie but and it happens.

1151
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 2: The fact that this all happens in the nineties, this

1152
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 2: is happening. Kin Kate is really hitting his stride at

1153
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 2: the same point that Beanie babies become a thing. Pokemon too.

1154
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 3: The question like, you know, that's when market exactly because

1155
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 3: everything's baseball cards are really big earties.

1156
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 2: And he is he is influenced by that. He is

1157
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 2: paying attention to how collectibles are going, and he is

1158
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 2: applying that to his own art. Highlighted paintings are being

1159
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 2: sold as studio proofs. Kin Kate himself would even do

1160
01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:59,240
Speaker 2: a small number of highlighted copies where he's painting over

1161
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 2: prints of his own paintings. The normal highlights could start

1162
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 2: as low as fifteen hundred dollars, while as can Kit

1163
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:09,440
Speaker 2: Kincaid's highlights. And again he's just like painting a tree

1164
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 2: or something on a painting he already made would go

1165
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 2: for thirty or forty thousand dollars. But he kept a

1166
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 2: hold of most of his originals, which helped add to

1167
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 2: the perception of value for his prints, right. And he

1168
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 2: would cut off artificially. He would stop selling individual prints

1169
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 2: at varying times. He would make sure there were limited runs,

1170
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 2: which again it's the city he's learning from beanie babies,

1171
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 2: from you know, collectible cards. That's what adds to the

1172
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 2: value in this secondary market that gets people buying in

1173
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 2: because they think, well, I can get rich off of

1174
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 2: this painting. You know, maybe people will want it a

1175
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 2: lot in thirty years for some reason, and then it'll

1176
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 2: really prove to have been a good investment.

1177
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:48,919
Speaker 3: It's all speculation and there's no proof that it will

1178
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:49,800
Speaker 3: have any value.

1179
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 2: No, no, and in fact it doesn't. These are terrible investments.

1180
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 2: And this is by the way, he when I call

1181
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 2: him a con artist, he is going to be found

1182
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 2: in court to have or his company to have people. Yes, yes,

1183
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 2: Thomas himself has dropped from the case. The company he

1184
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 2: starts UH is found to have misrepresented the business opportunity

1185
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 2: that k Kate sell Ka Prince represented Trump's cabinets. Oh yeah, yeah,

1186
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 2: I know he would have been like the Minister of

1187
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 2: the Interior or some ship. Speaking of cabinet positions, Randy,

1188
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:32,280
Speaker 2: when I'm elected president, Now, let's see what am I

1189
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 2: What am I going to make you? What am I

1190
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:39,400
Speaker 2: going to make you? Sectaf You're in charge of the army, Randy, Yeah, yeah,

1191
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 2: you got to figure out a war and start it.

1192
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 3: I mean, it's America. We can figure out. God.

1193
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, we need we need like a like a like

1194
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 2: smaller than Afghanistan, but bigger than Grenada. You know, really

1195
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 2: find us one of those sweet spots, and let's just

1196
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:57,680
Speaker 2: let's start sending in Marines.

1197
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 3: You know, Greenland's head fucking good.

1198
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:02,919
Speaker 2: I think we can. I think we could take Greenland. Yeah,

1199
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 2: I think we could take Greenland. You know a lot

1200
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:10,800
Speaker 2: of minerals. Yeah, they probably have some president dictator. Yeah,

1201
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 2: let's do it, all right, everybody, Evans, I don't know.

1202
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:18,000
Speaker 2: Let's say twenty thirty two, Uh, it's time for Greenland

1203
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 2: to pay Wow, Randy. Do you have any any place

1204
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 2: on the Internet that you exist?

1205
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 3: Yes, unfortunately quite a few places. My main comics Something

1206
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 3: Positive is that Something Positive dot Net. I also have

1207
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 3: mouse Trapped, mouse Trapped comic dot blog, also comics Kingdom

1208
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 3: dot com, slash Popeye. Every Sunday is a new Popeye strip.

1209
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:49,720
Speaker 3: Come see why so many of your seventy and sixty

1210
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 3: year old uncles and aunts fucking hate me because I

1211
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:54,680
Speaker 3: ruined Popeye by including people of color.

1212
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, well check out Randy. Check out us on

1213
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 2: youtubeube or not. If you want to continue listening to it,

1214
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 2: you can just listen to it. I promise most of

1215
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:08,360
Speaker 2: the episodes we do will not be about painters, but

1216
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 2: when we do episodes about artists, it helps to have

1217
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 2: a video.

1218
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 3: So any episode about Hitler is about a painter.

1219
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 2: It is it is. You know what we are. We're

1220
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 2: going to launch our pure art criticism episode of Hitler.

1221
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 3: Hitler and John Wayne Gacy's and how would they match up?

1222
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:30,439
Speaker 2: I think they would have been friends, actually they'd gotten

1223
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 2: the opportunity. I think Hitler would have really liked him

1224
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:36,760
Speaker 2: if you'd gotten to know him. One of history's great tragedies,

1225
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:39,560
Speaker 2: the friendships that never were. There's a good there's a

1226
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 2: good study history there.

1227
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1228
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hitler and John Wayne. Yeah. I want Hitler and

1229
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 2: John Wayne Gacy as like detectives in New Orleans solving crimes.

1230
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 2: The short story that will finally get me canceled The

1231
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 2: Hitler Gaysey Files.

1232
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:06,360
Speaker 1: On the podcast Some Word for You Okay Bye. Behind

1233
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:09,160
Speaker 1: the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. For

1234
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 1: more from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia dot com,

1235
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 1: or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1236
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.