WEBVTT - 39: The Insurance Market for Modern-Day Pirates

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<v Speaker 1>Hello, and welcome to another edition of a bots. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Tracy Alloway, Executive editor at Bloomberg Markets, and I'm Joe Wisenthal,

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<v Speaker 1>Managing editor at Bloomberg Markets. So, Joe, what if I

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<v Speaker 1>told you we were going to do a whole episode

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<v Speaker 1>on insurance, you'd be excitedly? Oh yeah, I'd I'd be

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<v Speaker 1>totally thrilled. I yeah, of course that would be so exciting,

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<v Speaker 1>all right, I detect a touch of sarcasm. What if

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<v Speaker 1>I told you we were going to do a show

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<v Speaker 1>about insurance and pirates? So if you told me that,

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<v Speaker 1>I would say anything Pirates related is sure to explode

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<v Speaker 1>of the viral content all over the Internet, and that

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<v Speaker 1>people will be thrilled about this episode because I know

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<v Speaker 1>how the internet loves pirates, and so I would say,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm very excited about that. All right. Everyone loves a

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<v Speaker 1>good pirate story, right, and everyone loves a good pirates

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<v Speaker 1>market story. So let me exactly. Let me set the

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<v Speaker 1>scene for us. So last year, you might remember, Joe,

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<v Speaker 1>there was a bunch of news coverage about a ship

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<v Speaker 1>that sank. It was called the Thunder and it was

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<v Speaker 1>illegally fishing. I think it was fishing for something called

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<v Speaker 1>the Patagonian toothfish. Do you remember that? I have to

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<v Speaker 1>admit I'm not sure if I remember that one specifically. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>So the interesting thing about that ship was it was

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<v Speaker 1>supposedly sunk by its crew, so it was sunk on purpose.

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<v Speaker 1>It was being pursued by another ship because it was

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<v Speaker 1>illegally fishing. And the really interesting thing is the Thunder

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<v Speaker 1>actually was insured by someone by quite a prominent London

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<v Speaker 1>based insurance company, and the owners of the vessel, the

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<v Speaker 1>self sunk vessel supposedly ended up coming after the insurance

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<v Speaker 1>company for compensation, which you might not expect, right, Like

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<v Speaker 1>pirates essentially going to insures to get compensation seems a

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<v Speaker 1>bit weird. Yeah, you definitely wouldn't expect it for all

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<v Speaker 1>kinds of reasons. I think one reason that jumps out

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<v Speaker 1>at me is just a fascinating story is this intersection

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<v Speaker 1>of something that seems rogue and outside the law and

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<v Speaker 1>old timey with pirates, and something like insurance, which I

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<v Speaker 1>think of as being highly regulated and highly sort of

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<v Speaker 1>this modern financial thing. And so the intersection of the

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<v Speaker 1>two is pretty fascinating. Exactly, So it turns out that

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<v Speaker 1>insurance companies ensuring illegal fishing boats is actually a lot

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<v Speaker 1>more common than you would think. And we have someone

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<v Speaker 1>here today who's going to be able to talk to

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<v Speaker 1>us a lot more about it. She's Dana Miller. She's

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<v Speaker 1>a marine scientist at the University of British Columbia and

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<v Speaker 1>she actually published a study just last month saying that

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<v Speaker 1>illegal vessels appear to be insured almost or just as

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<v Speaker 1>often as legal vessels. Again, very interesting dynamic that you

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't necessarily expect. Dana. Welcome to the show. Thanks for

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<v Speaker 1>joining us. Oh yes, hi, So just to begin with,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe you could walk us through your expertise in this subject,

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<v Speaker 1>because in my mind, it's not often that marine scientists

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<v Speaker 1>end up looking at the world of insurance. Yeah, it's

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<v Speaker 1>kind of an obscure topic. UM, that's for sure. UM. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I generally focus on policy issues. UM. That's where my

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<v Speaker 1>research has kind of led over the years. UM. I

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<v Speaker 1>should mention that I was previously a postdoctoral researcher at

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<v Speaker 1>the University of British Columbia and that's where I conducted

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<v Speaker 1>this research. UM. But presently i'm I'm I'm actually working

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<v Speaker 1>for a UM non government mental organization Oceania. UM. And

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking this recent research project forward into a new stage.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I'm I'm very broadly focused in my research

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<v Speaker 1>interests and it tends to be quite applied. So I

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<v Speaker 1>look at different conservation problems in the marine environment, and

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<v Speaker 1>UM just I'm not limited to anyone discipline. I kind

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<v Speaker 1>of go out there, learn what I can about the problem,

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<v Speaker 1>and um find some tools and do some research to

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<v Speaker 1>try to um develop recommendations for solving that problem. So

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<v Speaker 1>that's in a way what led me to um, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the topic of insurance and illegal fishing. So just to

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<v Speaker 1>put it all together, it actually makes a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>sense that you would look at insurance markets from this

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<v Speaker 1>sort of uh marine conservation standpoint, because the boats that

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<v Speaker 1>are being insured, they're illegal fishing boats. They're using methods

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<v Speaker 1>there that are illegal, they're contributing to over fishing, and theoretically,

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<v Speaker 1>if they're able to get insurance on that activity, then

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<v Speaker 1>that is sort of a de facto subsidy that could

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<v Speaker 1>harm the harmony ecology. Yes, yeah, that's right. Well, we

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<v Speaker 1>actually we came to the topic of insurance because UM,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess we were looking for an innovative approach at

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<v Speaker 1>tackling illegal fishing UM. As you may be aware, it's

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<v Speaker 1>an unresolved, internationally pervasive problem. It's UM. It's quite destructive

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<v Speaker 1>to marine habit hats and unsustainably depletes fish populations. UM.

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<v Speaker 1>It's it's just a big, bad problem. And common approaches

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<v Speaker 1>used in combating illegal fishing typically involve UM surveillance activities

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<v Speaker 1>inspections much more obvious UM approaches. But we decided instead

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<v Speaker 1>to consider the economics of illegal fishing UM and understanding

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<v Speaker 1>that if the costs of illegal fishing are made higher

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<v Speaker 1>or the benefits reduced UM, fishers may not be as

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<v Speaker 1>motivated to illegally fish. And insurance comes into this because

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<v Speaker 1>insurance can be financially beneficial to a vessel because it

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<v Speaker 1>eliminates the risk of large financial loss should an accident occur. So,

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<v Speaker 1>understanding all of this UM, we wanted to investigate whether

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<v Speaker 1>illegal fishing vessels use marine insurance as a financial service,

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<v Speaker 1>and that that was kind of our starting point. And

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<v Speaker 1>and then step one is to figure out can we

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<v Speaker 1>find those inks between illegal fishing vessels and insurance companies.

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<v Speaker 1>So how profitable is illegal fishing actually and how much

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<v Speaker 1>does insurance play a role or how big a factor

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<v Speaker 1>is insurance in that profitability. So I don't have numbers

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<v Speaker 1>in front of me, but I can tell you that

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, obviously, there are many different forms of fishing,

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<v Speaker 1>and some forms of fishing aren't very profitable at all.

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<v Speaker 1>It depends on what is being what species is being

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<v Speaker 1>fished for, UM, where the fishing is taking place, how

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<v Speaker 1>large that operation is UM. You mentioned earlier, UM the

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<v Speaker 1>incident with thunder and Thunder was fishing for Patagonian toothfish,

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<v Speaker 1>which is actually a highly profitable UM fish. So there

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<v Speaker 1>would be much more economic incentive to fish for that

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<v Speaker 1>particular species UM and to illegally fish in this case

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<v Speaker 1>for for that particular species. But that wouldn't always be

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<v Speaker 1>the case. You know. It is UM looking at that

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<v Speaker 1>UM equation of costs and benef fits and figuring out

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<v Speaker 1>where insurance fits in UM, how much the insurance might cost,

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<v Speaker 1>and whether it's a worthwhile cost to the to the

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<v Speaker 1>operator of the vessel and UM that you know, that

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<v Speaker 1>was a question that we asked, As I said, are

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<v Speaker 1>illegal fishing vessels utilizing insurance? Is this something that is

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<v Speaker 1>part of their equation? And surprisingly to me, when I

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<v Speaker 1>when I first did this UM the investigation, I wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>expecting to find find out that some of these vessels

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<v Speaker 1>were using insurance UM, particularly in cases where they weren't

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<v Speaker 1>legally required to. But as it turns out, a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of them were using insurance, and we were able to

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<v Speaker 1>find links UM to evidence supporting the existence of these policies.

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<v Speaker 1>So let me just ask the obvious question. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>this particular vessel, it had already I would say, a

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<v Speaker 1>checkered past UM, it had switched its flag of origin

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<v Speaker 1>several times. UM. It seemed obvious there were issues with it.

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<v Speaker 1>So why was it able to insurance? That's a very

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<v Speaker 1>good question. UM, That's a question I've asked myself many

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<v Speaker 1>times and UM, and I think that the simplest answer

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<v Speaker 1>is that I believe I feel that the simplest answer

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<v Speaker 1>is that the due diligence process UM involved in, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>screening a vessel prior to UM providing it with insurance

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<v Speaker 1>just simply doesn't include searching for information on illegal fishing.

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<v Speaker 1>So there are lists of official lists of illegal fishing

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<v Speaker 1>vessels that exist that are publicly accessible, but insurers UM

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<v Speaker 1>are not checking these lists. That this problem is just

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<v Speaker 1>simply not on their radar. UM, which is it's surprising

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<v Speaker 1>when there's such notorious, publicly visible illegal fishing vessels that

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<v Speaker 1>are still able to gain insurance. But but it just

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<v Speaker 1>seems as though it's not part of their process. It's

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<v Speaker 1>really surprising. I mean, just thinking about getting insurance on

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<v Speaker 1>a car, and the car is not a very expensive

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<v Speaker 1>item to ensure relative to a boat. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you instantly would get checked for the driving record, the

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<v Speaker 1>record of the driver, and the history of the car

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<v Speaker 1>and all kinds of things. So it seems surprising that

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<v Speaker 1>on these boats, which are much bigger deals than h

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<v Speaker 1>than cars, that there isn't much due diligence on that, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Or you think about the financial industry in general, right,

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<v Speaker 1>and we have all these rules, especially for companies like

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<v Speaker 1>banks about know your customer, all of that. Has that

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<v Speaker 1>not fed into the insurance industry at all? Oh, certainly,

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<v Speaker 1>I think obviously it has. But in concerning illegal fishing

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<v Speaker 1>as an issue, I don't. I don't think that insurers

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<v Speaker 1>feel that they're responsible for this particular issue. That it's

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<v Speaker 1>it's just not on their radar yet. Probably nobody has

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<v Speaker 1>ever brought up this issue. Um, you know, to the industry,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's not something they've ever thought about. I thought

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<v Speaker 1>that that had concerned them so UM, but that can change, obviously,

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<v Speaker 1>UM because of this research for bringing attention to the

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<v Speaker 1>issue and showing that insurers can potentially have a more

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<v Speaker 1>active role in regulating the fishing industry and cutting off

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<v Speaker 1>access to financial services such as insurance UM to illegal

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<v Speaker 1>fishing vessel operators. But yeah, I mean it is very

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<v Speaker 1>it was very surprising. But like I said, it's just

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<v Speaker 1>it simply was being missed and I think that's as

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<v Speaker 1>I think that is as simple as as it is.

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<v Speaker 1>So we mentioned the example of the Thunder notorious illegal

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<v Speaker 1>vessel caring insurance. How many vessels did you actually find

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<v Speaker 1>illegal vessels that had insurance policies on them or links

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<v Speaker 1>to insurers? Yeah, So we screened the internet for sources

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<v Speaker 1>of information and in total we had we were looking

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<v Speaker 1>for information on four hundred and eighty vessels that have

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<v Speaker 1>either been officially listed or they're suspected by UM governments

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<v Speaker 1>or non governmental organizations for involvement in illegal fishing UM

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<v Speaker 1>and in total we identify the insurance of sixty seven

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<v Speaker 1>vessels that have been known for their involvement in illegal

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<v Speaker 1>fishing illegal fishing activity sixty seven. Wow. Keeping in mind

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<v Speaker 1>UM that list that we began with a four vessels UM,

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<v Speaker 1>some of those vessels we had very little information on,

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<v Speaker 1>so it was difficult to search for any information on them.

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<v Speaker 1>But but I was of course very surprised at the

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<v Speaker 1>high number sixty seven UM that we were able to

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<v Speaker 1>find information on. So when you think of pirates, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and why piracy on the high seas exists to the day,

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<v Speaker 1>there's the obvious problem that nobody really really regulates the oceans, right,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, there are these treaties and stuff where people

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<v Speaker 1>try to do it in various entities, but ultimately oceans

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<v Speaker 1>are sort of the last sort of truly lawless place

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<v Speaker 1>left on Earth. Does that problem of the difficulty of

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<v Speaker 1>regulating oceans applied to regulating the insurance companies that would

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<v Speaker 1>have to provide financing for the oceans that nobody has?

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<v Speaker 1>You know that the various insurers out there who might

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<v Speaker 1>be providing this maritime insurance don't have a single regulator

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<v Speaker 1>that could command them to implement something like know your

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<v Speaker 1>Customer or something like that. That there's no any you know,

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<v Speaker 1>sort of governing body for them. Well, I don't I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think that that's necessarily the issue here, because I

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't say that marine insurers aren't well regulated, it's just

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<v Speaker 1>that they're not made to pay attention to this particular issue. UM.

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<v Speaker 1>It is true that that fishing vessels are often overlooked

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<v Speaker 1>in international legislation, particularly when they're operating in what we

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<v Speaker 1>call the high seas so um waters that are outside

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<v Speaker 1>the reach of any one nation. They operate um outside

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<v Speaker 1>of uh two nautical miles of any coastal state, that's

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<v Speaker 1>what we call the high seas um. And often these

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<v Speaker 1>vessels under international law, they they aren't required to have

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<v Speaker 1>the same UM safety they don't have a safety same

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<v Speaker 1>safety requirements um UH, they're not required to have an

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<v Speaker 1>International Maritime Organization number affixed to the vessel. They're not

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<v Speaker 1>necessarily required to have UM any kind of vessel tracking

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<v Speaker 1>technology in use. UM. So there's a very there's various

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<v Speaker 1>things that are normally required of vessels UM that aren't

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<v Speaker 1>necessarily required of fishing vessels because they just kind of

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<v Speaker 1>slipped through the cracks, and particularly when they're operating in

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<v Speaker 1>the high seas um and they're not being watched by

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<v Speaker 1>anyone particular country, that well, there's a whole variety of

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<v Speaker 1>different issues that play here. UM. I won't get into

0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:53.600
<v Speaker 1>detailed with them here, but vessels they are registered under

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<v Speaker 1>countries as well, and we have a common practice um

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<v Speaker 1>UM within the maritime world of using a flag of convenience,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's registering a vessel under a country that that

0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:09.719
<v Speaker 1>vessel may not have any obvious affiliation to UM and

0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:12.720
<v Speaker 1>it's a way of kind of skirting some of those regulations.

0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:15.240
<v Speaker 1>I'm kind of getting off track here, but you mentioned

0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:20.080
<v Speaker 1>Ase loves nerdy in the weed stuff, so this is

0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.480
<v Speaker 1>all really important. You just kind of mentioned the lawlessness

0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:28.000
<v Speaker 1>nature of the high season and particularly with fishing vessels.

0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:30.800
<v Speaker 1>You you touched on something there, because there are a

0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.560
<v Speaker 1>whole number of issues that that we within the NGO

0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:38.760
<v Speaker 1>community and also academics are trying to UM discuss and

0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:42.720
<v Speaker 1>improve the situation. So if Joe and I bought a

0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.600
<v Speaker 1>ship of some sort and registered it under the most

0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:49.400
<v Speaker 1>convenient flag of convenience and then we went out illegally fishing,

0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.600
<v Speaker 1>how easy would it actually be for us to get insurance?

0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:56.000
<v Speaker 1>Would anyone kind of ask questions or check the background?

0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:59.200
<v Speaker 1>What's the actual process here? Yeah, So that was one

0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:03.080
<v Speaker 1>question also that I was interested in. I'm interested in

0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:07.200
<v Speaker 1>UM whether insurance companies UM prefer a vessel to have

0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:12.040
<v Speaker 1>UH be registered under the flag of one country versus

0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:14.320
<v Speaker 1>the flag of another, so that you know, the flag

0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:16.720
<v Speaker 1>of a country that is more reputable in terms of

0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:22.520
<v Speaker 1>adhering to various different regulations UM as opposed to another

0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:27.400
<v Speaker 1>country that is known for UM for not being so

0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.360
<v Speaker 1>good in that department. So UM, that was one question

0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.840
<v Speaker 1>that I was trying to figure out, whether you know

0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.520
<v Speaker 1>insurers or aware of that, and I am still involved

0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.920
<v Speaker 1>in that work now where UM within this new role

0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.840
<v Speaker 1>at the Oceania UM that I'm not now in UM,

0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm hoping to work with the insurance industry to engage

0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:51.520
<v Speaker 1>with insurers and try to learn more about the policies

0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:56.000
<v Speaker 1>and procedures that are in place UM UH for ensuring

0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:01.240
<v Speaker 1>fishing vessels and UM whether they can UM introduced new

0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:04.000
<v Speaker 1>policies to pay attention to some of these things that

0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:08.000
<v Speaker 1>may not be so obvious UM maybe screen against UM

0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.720
<v Speaker 1>some of the characteristics that are more common amongst illegal

0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:15.400
<v Speaker 1>fishing vessels. So have you seen any evidence yet that

0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:18.520
<v Speaker 1>you know, perhaps due to the publicity that the thunder

0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:22.240
<v Speaker 1>incident got that insurance companies want to start taking this

0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:27.360
<v Speaker 1>issue more seriously. UM. Yes, I do believe that that

0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:31.520
<v Speaker 1>the media attention that has been gained UM through the

0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:35.640
<v Speaker 1>publication of um our manuscript, which occurred about the UM

0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:38.320
<v Speaker 1>just over a month ago. UM, I believe that we

0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:42.440
<v Speaker 1>have gotten the attention of UM individuals within the or

0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:46.680
<v Speaker 1>contacts within the insurance industry. UM. I have been in

0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:52.160
<v Speaker 1>touch with UM some contacts representatives from various insurance companies

0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:59.480
<v Speaker 1>to share that manuscript UM and UH, I'm optimistic I UM.

0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:01.960
<v Speaker 1>So far there has been a positive response UM from

0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.399
<v Speaker 1>those I've been in touch with, and most contacts have

0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.240
<v Speaker 1>acknowledged the importance of this work and showed some interest

0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.119
<v Speaker 1>in engaging in future discussions with me on this topic.

0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:14.840
<v Speaker 1>So I feel that there is an opportunity here for sure,

0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.920
<v Speaker 1>UM and I'm very optimistic. All right, Well, Dana, thank

0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.040
<v Speaker 1>you so much for joining us today. That was really

0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:24.320
<v Speaker 1>really interesting and topic that I think a lot of

0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.359
<v Speaker 1>our listeners will enjoy as well. Yeah, it is really fascinating.

0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:41.359
<v Speaker 1>Thank you very much. Thanks so much. Trizy. That was

0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.160
<v Speaker 1>awesome and I got really excited about that part where

0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:46.960
<v Speaker 1>you talked about us buying a ship together and get

0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.440
<v Speaker 1>an insurance because now I think we should totally do

0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:52.880
<v Speaker 1>that just as a big, a big stunt, a big

0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:57.080
<v Speaker 1>act of performative journalism. Should this be our summer project.

0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:01.440
<v Speaker 1>We'll go to Nigeria, get a up, we'll go fishing,

0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:05.159
<v Speaker 1>and we'll see if we can get insurance. Excellent, all right,

0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.560
<v Speaker 1>On a slightly more serious note, I mean, I thought

0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:11.399
<v Speaker 1>the whole topic was really interesting, and again mostly because

0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.680
<v Speaker 1>you never really think about the role that insurers might

0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:19.160
<v Speaker 1>have in piracy or in illegal fishing, and certainly not

0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:23.480
<v Speaker 1>on you know, the environmental landscape, which is obviously suffering

0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.480
<v Speaker 1>from illegal fishing quite a lot. So I wonder if

0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:28.400
<v Speaker 1>in the future this will be the kind of thing

0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:34.399
<v Speaker 1>where we have criminal based um bitcoin based insurers, because

0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.680
<v Speaker 1>if you think about, you know, insurance reduces the cost

0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:42.240
<v Speaker 1>of doing business for crime. But typically criminals can't get insurance.

0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:45.600
<v Speaker 1>But if you could theoretically have an insurance company that

0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:49.679
<v Speaker 1>was completely outside of the purview of regulators, uh, there

0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:55.440
<v Speaker 1>would probably be an opportunity there to ensure extra legal businesses.

0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:57.840
<v Speaker 1>And I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in

0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:01.800
<v Speaker 1>the future whether we see UH, the Internet enables such activities.

0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:04.840
<v Speaker 1>So I have to No, it's not. Actually, so I

0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:08.480
<v Speaker 1>have two responses to that. One is which Christine Legard

0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:11.640
<v Speaker 1>actually gave from the I m F gave a speech

0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:15.280
<v Speaker 1>on a similar topic last week about banks and the

0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.359
<v Speaker 1>know your Customer rules and how because of these new rules,

0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:22.160
<v Speaker 1>banks were retreating from certain areas of the world, certain

0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.360
<v Speaker 1>geographical areas, and so that left a whole for illegal

0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:30.320
<v Speaker 1>operators and potentially bitcoin based banks to come in. Uh

0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:33.680
<v Speaker 1>So it's not that out there. My second thought though,

0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:36.719
<v Speaker 1>and this is related, is that there's a school of

0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:42.080
<v Speaker 1>thought about how insurers could eventually grow to become the

0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:46.520
<v Speaker 1>arbiters of human behavior and business behavior, because after all,

0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.560
<v Speaker 1>they're the ones who have their money on the line

0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:53.080
<v Speaker 1>and they end up actually shaping human behavior. So in

0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:56.600
<v Speaker 1>the future, rather than having you know, potentially laws be

0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:59.679
<v Speaker 1>the most important factor over human behavior, you could actually

0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:02.960
<v Speaker 1>have insurers who end up being the driving force. So

0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:06.439
<v Speaker 1>who knows, like there's been talking about, you know, insurers

0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.160
<v Speaker 1>bearing the most risk from say climate change, for example,

0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:12.800
<v Speaker 1>and so perhaps they, more than anyone else, have the

0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:19.720
<v Speaker 1>incentive to uh push businesses and individuals towards climate friendly activities.

0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:25.879
<v Speaker 1>Exactly alright, So we managed to veer from piracy to

0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:31.719
<v Speaker 1>bitcoin to insurers as a global political forces. So um,

0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:34.159
<v Speaker 1>that was fun. That was a successful podcast, I would say.

0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:36.000
<v Speaker 1>I would say I would say that's the mark of

0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:40.520
<v Speaker 1>a successful episode. Excellent. Thanks for listening everyone to the

0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:43.239
<v Speaker 1>latest episode of Odd Lots. I'm Joe wi Isn't though

0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:45.120
<v Speaker 1>you can follow me on Twitter at the stall Wart,

0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:48.520
<v Speaker 1>and I'm Tracy Halloway. I'm on Twitter at Tracy Alloway.

0:20:48.520 --> 0:21:07.760
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening. Are are two? Are well and keep