1 00:00:06,790 --> 00:00:10,690 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host, 2 00:00:10,869 --> 00:00:11,750 Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. 3 00:00:15,300 --> 00:00:18,579 Speaker 2: Hey, everybody. Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. 4 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 2: For years, young men and teenage boys were disappearing around Chicago. 5 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,140 Speaker 2: Some had worked for the same local contractor. Others had 6 00:00:27,180 --> 00:00:32,030 Speaker 2: survived terrifying encounters with him and gone to police. But 7 00:00:32,070 --> 00:00:36,990 Speaker 2: John Wayne Gacy remained free. It wasn't until 15-year-old Robert 8 00:00:37,050 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 2: Piest disappeared in 1978 that investigators finally searched Gacy's home 9 00:00:43,260 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 2: and uncovered the horrifying truth. The respected businessman and community 10 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:53,570 Speaker 2: volunteer had murdered 33 young men and boys, burying most 11 00:00:53,630 --> 00:00:57,620 Speaker 2: of them beneath and around his house. Devil in Disguise, 12 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: John Wayne Gacy, tells the story not just of Gacy, 13 00:01:01,020 --> 00:01:04,430 Speaker 2: but of the victims, their families, and the failures that 14 00:01:04,490 --> 00:01:07,729 Speaker 2: allowed him to keep killing. Joining me today is the 15 00:01:07,770 --> 00:01:11,030 Speaker 2: series creator and showrunner, Patrick McManus. 16 00:01:11,810 --> 00:01:12,590 Speaker 3: Hi, Patrick. 17 00:01:12,670 --> 00:01:15,420 Speaker 2: Welcome to Killer Thriller. Thank you so much for talking 18 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:16,090 Speaker 2: with me today. 19 00:01:16,110 --> 00:01:17,740 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. 20 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:18,700 Speaker 3: I appreciate it. 21 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 2: We have so much to cover that I don't even 22 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,420 Speaker 2: know where to begin, but I want to say, first off, 23 00:01:26,250 --> 00:01:30,610 Speaker 2: Devil in Disguise is one of the most, it's so disturbing. 24 00:01:30,810 --> 00:01:33,750 Speaker 2: And this man was just one of, I don't say 25 00:01:33,790 --> 00:01:37,230 Speaker 2: this often, even though this is a podcast about true 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,620 Speaker 2: crime and we cover serial killers and some horrific things. 27 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 4: This John Wayne Gacy, he might be pure evil. 28 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:50,890 Speaker 2: He's really, I feel like one of these, I've never 29 00:01:50,970 --> 00:01:54,290 Speaker 2: seen anything like it just kind of the way he 30 00:01:54,350 --> 00:01:57,190 Speaker 2: talks about the bodies and the murders in this matter 31 00:01:57,210 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 2: of fact way and has pride it's just it's chilling 32 00:02:00,900 --> 00:02:04,420 Speaker 2: it's disturbing and the the series is so good and 33 00:02:04,820 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 2: um i have heard that you actually turned this project 34 00:02:08,030 --> 00:02:12,190 Speaker 2: down twice so is that true and then what finally 35 00:02:12,230 --> 00:02:15,150 Speaker 2: made you realize that there was a john wayne gacy 36 00:02:15,190 --> 00:02:16,329 Speaker 2: story that you wanted to. 37 00:02:16,270 --> 00:02:19,829 Speaker 1: Tell first of all i i can't agree with you 38 00:02:19,850 --> 00:02:25,430 Speaker 1: more uh yeah it's gacy is an extraordinary figure and 39 00:02:25,750 --> 00:02:29,130 Speaker 1: and and i'm not using that euphemistically i i i 40 00:02:29,570 --> 00:02:31,649 Speaker 1: will get into it a little in in greater detail 41 00:02:31,669 --> 00:02:35,230 Speaker 1: but i found him to be completely confusing and and 42 00:02:35,250 --> 00:02:36,850 Speaker 1: we could talk about this in the development of the 43 00:02:36,889 --> 00:02:38,940 Speaker 1: show in a little bit but it wasn't just me 44 00:02:39,060 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: it was our writers once the writers room got started 45 00:02:41,340 --> 00:02:44,070 Speaker 1: it was Michael Ternes, who played him in the show 46 00:02:44,470 --> 00:02:47,690 Speaker 1: where we were all just, he's amazing. And he's also 47 00:02:47,730 --> 00:02:51,870 Speaker 1: just a spectacular human being beyond being talented, which is 48 00:02:51,990 --> 00:02:54,510 Speaker 1: annoying because I'm a terrible human being, but, or I'm, 49 00:02:54,590 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: or I'm not talented. I have a great team of 50 00:02:59,310 --> 00:03:01,019 Speaker 1: writers who are stupid enough to work with me over 51 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,980 Speaker 1: and over again. But anyways, I, so we'll get into 52 00:03:04,020 --> 00:03:05,340 Speaker 1: him in a second, but I agree. I think that 53 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: there's a very real probability that he's as close to 54 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:13,100 Speaker 1: as close to evil as you get. And as it 55 00:03:13,139 --> 00:03:17,049 Speaker 1: relates to the point of your question, yeah, I turned 56 00:03:17,070 --> 00:03:19,870 Speaker 1: it down twice. They kept coming back. This was Peacock. 57 00:03:19,970 --> 00:03:22,209 Speaker 1: They kept coming back saying, we really need you to 58 00:03:22,250 --> 00:03:26,169 Speaker 1: do it. And I said, no. And through a series 59 00:03:26,230 --> 00:03:27,850 Speaker 1: of conversations with people that I have a great deal 60 00:03:27,870 --> 00:03:29,670 Speaker 1: of respect for, that I've worked with for a long 61 00:03:29,710 --> 00:03:31,780 Speaker 1: time over there, they said, well, what would it take 62 00:03:31,810 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: for you to do it? And I said, well, I 63 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: would want to really focus it on the victims' stories 64 00:03:37,140 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: and not on John Wayne Gacy. 65 00:03:38,700 --> 00:03:40,060 Speaker 3: And not on the murders. And I don't want to 66 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:41,020 Speaker 3: show a single murder. 67 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,820 Speaker 1: And I really, I've talked about this quite a bit 68 00:03:43,860 --> 00:03:45,980 Speaker 1: over the last 18 months or so, where I thought 69 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,490 Speaker 1: that would be it. And then they called my bluff 70 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,230 Speaker 1: and they were like, okay, sure, you can do it 71 00:03:53,270 --> 00:03:56,250 Speaker 1: that way. And look, the reason that I wanted to 72 00:03:56,290 --> 00:03:59,850 Speaker 1: do it that way wasn't out of some desire to, like, 73 00:04:00,090 --> 00:04:02,870 Speaker 1: quote unquote, or to be more reductive, like to do 74 00:04:02,890 --> 00:04:05,090 Speaker 1: the right thing in true crime that had nothing to 75 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,860 Speaker 1: do with it. It was simply that we were coming 76 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: out of the, you know, Dahmer had just come out 77 00:04:10,140 --> 00:04:13,340 Speaker 1: and was an extraordinary success. It was before the Menendez 78 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,460 Speaker 1: side of things. I had done a couple of seasons 79 00:04:16,500 --> 00:04:18,660 Speaker 1: of True Crime. I'd watched a lot of True Crime. 80 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,830 Speaker 1: I just felt like if you were going to do it, 81 00:04:20,850 --> 00:04:22,630 Speaker 1: then you needed to do it different. You had to 82 00:04:22,650 --> 00:04:24,250 Speaker 1: try to do something different. You had to make it 83 00:04:24,270 --> 00:04:26,110 Speaker 1: interesting in some way and not just have it be 84 00:04:26,910 --> 00:04:28,790 Speaker 1: a show about a guy killing. 85 00:04:28,550 --> 00:04:29,230 Speaker 3: People all the time. 86 00:04:29,589 --> 00:04:32,350 Speaker 1: And that's... that's sort of what took us down that 87 00:04:32,410 --> 00:04:36,380 Speaker 1: primrose path. And then I was lucky enough to, the 88 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: writers I've worked with for a long time, they sort 89 00:04:38,020 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: of got what the mission was and they really helped 90 00:04:41,260 --> 00:04:44,140 Speaker 1: make the show what it became. Yeah. 91 00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: I really appreciate that so much that it's told from 92 00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 2: their perspective for the most part. And just with a 93 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 2: generally a great respect for the The victims, and it 94 00:04:54,980 --> 00:04:59,510 Speaker 2: begins with Robert Pease's disappearance rather than Gacy's childhood, which 95 00:05:00,010 --> 00:05:03,589 Speaker 2: obviously you just explained why, or even his first murder. 96 00:05:03,610 --> 00:05:07,210 Speaker 4: So why was Robert the right way into the story? 97 00:05:07,230 --> 00:05:09,070 Speaker 1: Well, I think that part of it had to do 98 00:05:09,100 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: with the fact that I had told the studio and 99 00:05:11,140 --> 00:05:13,140 Speaker 1: the network that I wasn't going to show a single murderer. 100 00:05:14,620 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: And so if that becomes sort of your thesis statement 101 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,820 Speaker 1: of what you're going– how you're going to approach the work, 102 00:05:24,339 --> 00:05:28,060 Speaker 1: then you– it almost assuredly– and by the way, and 103 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: then by extension, you're not making it about John Wayne Gacy– 104 00:05:30,860 --> 00:05:36,909 Speaker 1: then almost by extension, the logical next move– is for 105 00:05:37,010 --> 00:05:39,450 Speaker 1: you to pick up with him being caught. 106 00:05:40,930 --> 00:05:42,250 Speaker 3: And then try to. 107 00:05:43,470 --> 00:05:45,940 Speaker 1: And then you're building a story about not who did it, 108 00:05:46,510 --> 00:05:49,430 Speaker 1: but why did it and who did they do it to. 109 00:05:50,170 --> 00:05:53,850 Speaker 1: And by extension to that, then that became... you know, 110 00:05:53,870 --> 00:05:56,170 Speaker 1: I didn't really, you know, to go back for a 111 00:05:56,230 --> 00:06:00,130 Speaker 1: second on, on this whole idea of focusing on the victims, 112 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:02,940 Speaker 1: I didn't really know what that meant. 113 00:06:03,180 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 3: I just said it. And then I didn't know really 114 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:05,700 Speaker 3: how to achieve it. 115 00:06:06,580 --> 00:06:08,820 Speaker 1: Um, right. Cause I really was just trying to get 116 00:06:08,900 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: them to say no to me. I was trying to 117 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:12,620 Speaker 1: get them to like, say, you're okay. 118 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,580 Speaker 3: Well, we don't want that. You're, you're, you're boring. 119 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,900 Speaker 1: Um, and, um, and then when they got behind it, 120 00:06:17,940 --> 00:06:20,130 Speaker 1: I had to figure that part out and, and that, um, 121 00:06:20,790 --> 00:06:23,229 Speaker 1: And I can tell you, I was in DC visiting 122 00:06:23,310 --> 00:06:26,969 Speaker 1: friends with my kids and my wife, and I was 123 00:06:27,010 --> 00:06:29,770 Speaker 1: on a run down on the National Mall. 124 00:06:29,870 --> 00:06:30,849 Speaker 3: And it just. 125 00:06:30,970 --> 00:06:33,710 Speaker 1: Hit me that what I would do is I would 126 00:06:33,750 --> 00:06:36,500 Speaker 1: focus it on their backstories without having anything to do 127 00:06:36,540 --> 00:06:39,620 Speaker 1: with John Wayne Gacy. And so once I figured that 128 00:06:39,700 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: part out, then it became like, let's start with the 129 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: last victim and then make our way back to how 130 00:06:46,020 --> 00:06:49,050 Speaker 1: do we tell their stories. And that's part one. And 131 00:06:49,070 --> 00:06:52,170 Speaker 1: then part two was why start with Robert Piest was 132 00:06:52,210 --> 00:06:57,770 Speaker 1: that Piest was really the only victim that they truly 133 00:06:57,890 --> 00:07:02,150 Speaker 1: took seriously, right? And so if a part of the 134 00:07:02,170 --> 00:07:05,750 Speaker 1: storytelling became about how these other victims were, again, I'm 135 00:07:06,470 --> 00:07:08,550 Speaker 1: being reductive for the point of this conversation right now, 136 00:07:08,990 --> 00:07:12,670 Speaker 1: were ignored for various reasons, then you want to figure 137 00:07:12,750 --> 00:07:14,690 Speaker 1: out why, you want to begin with why did the 138 00:07:14,710 --> 00:07:18,310 Speaker 1: police pay attention? And that was Robert Peast. So that's 139 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:19,430 Speaker 1: why we started there. 140 00:07:19,700 --> 00:07:21,890 Speaker 2: That's one of the most frustrating parts of the case 141 00:07:21,950 --> 00:07:25,530 Speaker 2: is how many warning signs, how many things, you know, 142 00:07:25,550 --> 00:07:29,050 Speaker 2: the sort of devastating failures of the Chicago PD. And 143 00:07:29,070 --> 00:07:31,310 Speaker 2: a lot of that seems to be related to the 144 00:07:31,370 --> 00:07:34,150 Speaker 2: bigotry and, you know, trying to blame the boys as 145 00:07:34,190 --> 00:07:37,150 Speaker 2: delinquents and gay addicts. And there just was a real 146 00:07:37,750 --> 00:07:41,850 Speaker 2: prejudice against gay men at the time. So How much 147 00:07:42,070 --> 00:07:45,290 Speaker 2: did assumptions that some of these men were gay, transient, 148 00:07:45,370 --> 00:07:50,410 Speaker 2: or runaways affect the urgency or the lack thereof of 149 00:07:50,530 --> 00:07:52,970 Speaker 2: which their disappearances were treated? 150 00:07:53,470 --> 00:07:59,250 Speaker 1: So, look, this is a somewhat dangerous question to answer 151 00:07:59,350 --> 00:08:03,679 Speaker 1: because what I don't want and what we never wanted 152 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: was for anyone to come away from the show with 153 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:18,190 Speaker 1: demonizing the police, right? Like it was important that, and 154 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,310 Speaker 1: I think that we really achieved it by, by in 155 00:08:21,370 --> 00:08:22,490 Speaker 1: two different avenues. 156 00:08:22,510 --> 00:08:25,170 Speaker 3: This will come to your question to answer your question. 157 00:08:25,190 --> 00:08:28,490 Speaker 1: Number one is that it's really important to remember that, 158 00:08:28,770 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: that while putting our show aside, but while you can 159 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,610 Speaker 1: go back and you can look at all the prejudices and, 160 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: and all the bigotry and, and, and just sort of 161 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: the systemic cultural corruption within the police force. And what 162 00:08:44,780 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: I mean by that is that it was very common 163 00:08:47,070 --> 00:08:47,530 Speaker 1: for kids. 164 00:08:47,380 --> 00:08:48,140 Speaker 3: To just disappear. 165 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,429 Speaker 1: And so kids ran away, and the police were like, 166 00:08:51,470 --> 00:08:54,030 Speaker 1: these are kids who just ran away, and so they'll 167 00:08:54,050 --> 00:08:54,430 Speaker 1: come back. 168 00:08:54,470 --> 00:08:55,310 Speaker 3: They usually come back. 169 00:08:55,809 --> 00:09:00,050 Speaker 1: That's above and beyond bigotry, the prejudice against homophobia. 170 00:09:00,530 --> 00:09:02,390 Speaker 3: That's above and beyond.... 171 00:09:02,990 --> 00:09:05,850 Speaker 1: The general bigotry against kids who came from the wrong 172 00:09:05,890 --> 00:09:09,189 Speaker 1: side of the tracks or, or who had some, you know, 173 00:09:09,230 --> 00:09:12,220 Speaker 1: either drug addiction or petty crimes or anything like that, that, 174 00:09:12,380 --> 00:09:13,819 Speaker 1: that influenced. 175 00:09:13,380 --> 00:09:14,020 Speaker 3: Them as well. 176 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,619 Speaker 1: So we had that, but on the flip side, it 177 00:09:16,660 --> 00:09:18,699 Speaker 1: was all the police that were in that pit for 178 00:09:18,820 --> 00:09:23,870 Speaker 1: months on end, trying to uncover every victim and, and, 179 00:09:24,070 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: and trying to put a name to, to, bits of 180 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: bone and, and whose lives were, many of whose lives 181 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 1: were ruined by it, who turned to alcohol and drugs, 182 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,819 Speaker 1: who got divorced, who left the force because. 183 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 3: It was so overwhelming to them. 184 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,100 Speaker 1: And so, you know, I think it's easy for us to, 185 00:09:42,260 --> 00:09:44,380 Speaker 1: to just to put all of the cops in this 186 00:09:44,420 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: basket of it's their fault. And I think it's, what 187 00:09:47,780 --> 00:09:49,890 Speaker 1: we tried to do is to find sort of all 188 00:09:49,910 --> 00:09:52,590 Speaker 1: of the reasons for why it was their fault while 189 00:09:52,690 --> 00:09:57,550 Speaker 1: also trying showing, appropriately so, the heroism of the police. 190 00:09:57,950 --> 00:10:00,660 Speaker 3: That finally stepped in and tried to fight. try to 191 00:10:00,700 --> 00:10:01,839 Speaker 3: name all of these boys. 192 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 193 00:10:02,780 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 2: I think that's one of the strongest parts of the whole, 194 00:10:05,340 --> 00:10:07,540 Speaker 2: I mean, the series, as I said, I think is 195 00:10:07,590 --> 00:10:10,990 Speaker 2: really excellent in so many ways, but that is very powerful. 196 00:10:11,030 --> 00:10:14,730 Speaker 2: How we keep coming back to just digging in that 197 00:10:15,070 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: horrific space. And, it's so relentless because it was a 198 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:27,370 Speaker 2: relentless endeavor. But it's really very strong. And it's so 199 00:10:27,420 --> 00:10:30,809 Speaker 2: effective that we get to see several of the cops 200 00:10:30,870 --> 00:10:34,630 Speaker 2: in their full, like their real passion to try to 201 00:10:35,270 --> 00:10:37,510 Speaker 2: solve this and help people. 202 00:10:37,730 --> 00:10:40,850 Speaker 4: And it does an excellent job of that, for sure. 203 00:10:40,870 --> 00:10:44,429 Speaker 3: Thank you. It's easy, by the way. 204 00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:48,860 Speaker 1: Sometimes, in my opinion, it's very easy to do true 205 00:10:48,940 --> 00:10:51,860 Speaker 1: crime right because the story has been told. You just 206 00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:55,540 Speaker 1: have to figure out how to tell it right. And 207 00:10:55,580 --> 00:10:58,699 Speaker 1: for these police officers, they really, really did sacrifice quite 208 00:10:58,740 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: a bit to try to bring these boys home as 209 00:11:01,260 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: best they could. 210 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:22,020 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is definitely clear. Robert Donnelly is another victim. 211 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,750 Speaker 2: He survived an assault and went to the police. And 212 00:11:24,780 --> 00:11:31,130 Speaker 2: Jeffrey Rignall also survived a horrific, horrific attack and ultimately 213 00:11:31,250 --> 00:11:34,410 Speaker 2: tracked Gacy down himself. And he kind of had to 214 00:11:34,510 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 2: become his own investigator because there was no statutory precedent 215 00:11:40,260 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: at the time for what happened to him. 216 00:11:42,420 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 4: A man can't be raped by another man. 217 00:11:44,700 --> 00:11:47,570 Speaker 2: So Was that one of the stories that changed the 218 00:11:47,610 --> 00:11:49,490 Speaker 2: way you viewed the case? 219 00:11:50,050 --> 00:11:52,290 Speaker 1: If I'm being completely honest with you, that was the 220 00:11:52,330 --> 00:11:55,490 Speaker 1: reason why I ultimately said yes to doing the show, Rignell. 221 00:11:57,170 --> 00:11:59,660 Speaker 3: Because I, and not only that, it. 222 00:12:01,780 --> 00:12:05,459 Speaker 1: Was also, so I had sworn off the idea of 223 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:06,540 Speaker 1: ever directing Rignell. 224 00:12:07,610 --> 00:12:08,569 Speaker 3: I have a hard time being. 225 00:12:08,590 --> 00:12:10,250 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm always on set and I have a 226 00:12:10,290 --> 00:12:12,490 Speaker 1: hard time being on set because it's so boring to me. 227 00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: Because it's just... And I always want the excuse as 228 00:12:16,890 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 1: showrunner to be like, I got to go to a meeting. 229 00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:20,500 Speaker 3: I'm going over here. 230 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,860 Speaker 1: But I will say that I... And I think showrunning 231 00:12:23,900 --> 00:12:27,220 Speaker 1: is hard enough. You don't want to throw directing on top. 232 00:12:27,260 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: But I will say that when I read the Rignell 233 00:12:29,420 --> 00:12:32,970 Speaker 1: story before I said yes, that was the reason why 234 00:12:32,990 --> 00:12:35,209 Speaker 1: I said yes. And then I even said to the studio, 235 00:12:35,230 --> 00:12:38,089 Speaker 1: the network, if I ever... if I'm ever going to 236 00:12:38,110 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: be open, and this was 18 months before we shot, 237 00:12:40,540 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: I was like, if I'm ever going to be open 238 00:12:41,740 --> 00:12:44,219 Speaker 1: to directing, I would want to direct that story. And 239 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: I ended up doing it. I ended up directing that story. 240 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 1: But I find that to be, I don't want to 241 00:12:51,580 --> 00:12:56,490 Speaker 1: say the most compelling, but it was like the story 242 00:12:56,990 --> 00:13:03,890 Speaker 1: that best summed up everything that went wrong with this case. 243 00:13:04,750 --> 00:13:10,030 Speaker 1: And at the same time, It was the story that 244 00:13:11,350 --> 00:13:18,510 Speaker 1: best humanized these young men who were being dehumanized in 245 00:13:18,550 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 1: many ways because of who they were or who they 246 00:13:22,260 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: loved or the mistakes that they had made. And you 247 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: really got to see this person take agency in their 248 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 1: own lives to fight back against the system that was 249 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: basically make forcing his hand like Rignal was, was for, 250 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: he was, and he refused to just sit there. He 251 00:13:44,210 --> 00:13:47,770 Speaker 1: refused to just take it. And that's so compelling to me. 252 00:13:48,070 --> 00:13:51,710 Speaker 2: I find him an extraordinary human being, even in the, 253 00:13:51,730 --> 00:13:54,150 Speaker 2: you know, some of the documentary footage that I've watched 254 00:13:54,170 --> 00:13:59,059 Speaker 2: with him in particular is his full fierce spirit comes 255 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,900 Speaker 2: through his fate, like comes through the screen where you 256 00:14:03,020 --> 00:14:07,970 Speaker 2: see that determination of like the outrage of But the 257 00:14:08,030 --> 00:14:12,609 Speaker 2: ability to take care of, to say, nobody's going to 258 00:14:12,630 --> 00:14:13,390 Speaker 2: do it but me. 259 00:14:13,650 --> 00:14:14,530 Speaker 4: Like, I have to. 260 00:14:14,570 --> 00:14:14,990 Speaker 3: That's right. 261 00:14:15,450 --> 00:14:18,330 Speaker 4: It's really something. Back to Gacy himself. 262 00:14:18,650 --> 00:14:19,610 Speaker 3: Oh, yes. 263 00:14:20,390 --> 00:14:23,940 Speaker 2: Yes. One of the strangest relationships in the story is 264 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 2: between John Wayne Gacy and Sam Amiranti, who becomes his attorney. 265 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 2: And Gacy initially presents himself essentially as a victim of 266 00:14:32,820 --> 00:14:38,170 Speaker 2: police harassment. And then he starts admitting what he's done 267 00:14:38,190 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 2: to Sam. So can you talk about how do you 268 00:14:43,900 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 2: dramatize the moment that a young attorney realizes his client 269 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,780 Speaker 2: may be one of the most prolific murderers in American history? 270 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,570 Speaker 1: This is where I'm going to disappoint your audience. 271 00:14:56,090 --> 00:14:58,970 Speaker 3: Your fans and your listeners and everything. 272 00:14:59,410 --> 00:15:03,940 Speaker 1: This was the easiest show that I've ever written because 273 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,020 Speaker 1: it was all there. 274 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:07,740 Speaker 3: This is all real. 275 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:09,950 Speaker 1: And what we had to figure out was how to 276 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:15,170 Speaker 1: dramatize it. When I first got in alone into the process, 277 00:15:16,010 --> 00:15:19,150 Speaker 1: And I was researching him. I was like, this guy's 278 00:15:19,190 --> 00:15:21,590 Speaker 1: not real. Like, how do you write this guy? How 279 00:15:21,610 --> 00:15:24,820 Speaker 1: do you write this guy who flies into everything, says 280 00:15:24,910 --> 00:15:26,140 Speaker 1: everything is real. 281 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,460 Speaker 3: But it's not my fault. But yeah, I did this 282 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:29,100 Speaker 3: and I did that. 283 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: And he does it jovially and kind of goofily. And 284 00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: he's like the guy at the bar who's a little annoying, 285 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:37,860 Speaker 1: but you still laugh at him every once in. 286 00:15:37,820 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 3: A while, right? 287 00:15:38,340 --> 00:15:41,060 Speaker 1: Yeah. And then I had to get over it because 288 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,020 Speaker 1: I did all this research and I listened to all 289 00:15:43,060 --> 00:15:44,990 Speaker 1: these tapes of him. And I, and I was like, 290 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,030 Speaker 1: this is who this guy is. First day of the 291 00:15:47,050 --> 00:15:48,790 Speaker 1: writer's room writers. I've worked with some of them for 292 00:15:48,950 --> 00:15:50,630 Speaker 1: over a decade. Others first time. 293 00:15:50,510 --> 00:15:52,350 Speaker 3: In a room with me. And I, and they're all, 294 00:15:52,390 --> 00:15:54,410 Speaker 3: they all call bullshit on me on my pilot. They 295 00:15:54,430 --> 00:15:57,050 Speaker 3: were like, this is not get out of here. This 296 00:15:57,110 --> 00:15:59,910 Speaker 3: is bullshit. Right. Right. And I said, I said, guys, like, 297 00:15:59,970 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 3: go take all the research that I have. Take the week, go. 298 00:16:04,740 --> 00:16:05,820 Speaker 3: And they all came back. 299 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,180 Speaker 1: And they all said the same thing, which is how 300 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: do we write this guy? Like, this guy doesn't make sense. 301 00:16:10,660 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: Michael Chernus, same thing when we met. How do I 302 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,570 Speaker 1: act this guy? And where Chernus and I landed was 303 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:23,070 Speaker 1: that if you make him evil, if you make him 304 00:16:24,230 --> 00:16:28,220 Speaker 1: dumber or, you know, whatever, right? Then you were actually 305 00:16:28,250 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: doing a disservice to the victims, right? Because you've got 306 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,820 Speaker 1: to give the victim's permission to have taken the job, 307 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: to have hung out in his house, to have gotten 308 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: in the car. 309 00:16:41,380 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 3: You've got to lean into the fact that this was 310 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 3: a guy that everybody wanted to hang out with. He 311 00:16:45,860 --> 00:16:46,260 Speaker 3: was fun. 312 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: Yep. 313 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 4: And he had something to offer some people. It was 314 00:16:49,380 --> 00:16:50,260 Speaker 4: a job that was. 315 00:16:50,220 --> 00:16:53,950 Speaker 2: Paying more than twice as much as working at the 316 00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:55,870 Speaker 2: pharmacy or whatever it might be. 317 00:16:55,890 --> 00:16:57,150 Speaker 3: And so there are. 318 00:16:57,050 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 2: 29... bodies were ultimately recovered from Gacy's property and four 319 00:17:04,790 --> 00:17:10,129 Speaker 2: from waterways. Again, the 29 people in that crawl space. 320 00:17:10,210 --> 00:17:12,710 Speaker 2: And in fact, he had said he had to start 321 00:17:12,730 --> 00:17:16,690 Speaker 2: dumping them in the river because there wasn't enough space anymore. 322 00:17:17,150 --> 00:17:20,330 Speaker 2: And that's just hard to wrap your head around. But 323 00:17:21,010 --> 00:17:24,590 Speaker 2: was there anything about the physical scale of the crime 324 00:17:24,630 --> 00:17:27,190 Speaker 2: scene that was particularly difficult to recreate? 325 00:17:27,210 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 3: Yes. 326 00:17:29,619 --> 00:17:34,129 Speaker 1: We did everything we could do on location. 327 00:17:34,150 --> 00:17:38,450 Speaker 3: Sorry. In Toronto, where we shot, we. 328 00:17:38,290 --> 00:17:42,340 Speaker 1: Had the exterior, the physical location that matched best with 329 00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: his house. We had to do some changes to it 330 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:46,020 Speaker 1: to make it look exactly like the front. 331 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 3: And then on stage, we built. 332 00:17:48,780 --> 00:17:53,379 Speaker 1: an only slightly larger version of the full house. And 333 00:17:53,420 --> 00:17:56,570 Speaker 1: so we had, we had, it was up two stories. 334 00:17:56,930 --> 00:17:59,609 Speaker 1: And so we had a lower deck that was basically 335 00:17:59,630 --> 00:18:00,830 Speaker 1: where we had all of our equipment and we were 336 00:18:00,869 --> 00:18:03,550 Speaker 1: able to bring cameras up into the actual crawl space, 337 00:18:04,230 --> 00:18:08,050 Speaker 1: which was only slightly larger than what the real crawl 338 00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:08,450 Speaker 1: space was. 339 00:18:08,490 --> 00:18:10,030 Speaker 3: Cause we obviously had all the dimensions. 340 00:18:11,109 --> 00:18:14,570 Speaker 1: And so we built the physical crawl space that also 341 00:18:14,630 --> 00:18:19,250 Speaker 1: included the dirt and graves. Like we built all the 342 00:18:19,290 --> 00:18:21,210 Speaker 1: graves and all that so that we could do all 343 00:18:21,260 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: the digging in real life. And then on top of that, 344 00:18:24,740 --> 00:18:27,340 Speaker 1: we had the actual height of the distance between the 345 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,300 Speaker 1: ground of the, between the top of the, of the 346 00:18:30,340 --> 00:18:33,379 Speaker 1: dirt and the bottom of the top of the floor. 347 00:18:34,290 --> 00:18:37,770 Speaker 1: And the hardest part of the, of the job, I mean, again, 348 00:18:37,790 --> 00:18:39,750 Speaker 1: for me, it's pretty easy. I'm sitting in video village 349 00:18:39,790 --> 00:18:42,129 Speaker 1: for the actors. They're literally crawling through this space and 350 00:18:42,150 --> 00:18:45,260 Speaker 1: digging in this space was that we had to shoot the, 351 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:51,379 Speaker 1: the entire season in a way in which the house 352 00:18:51,420 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: was fully together, and then we broke it all apart. 353 00:18:54,820 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: And normally, if you look at the scripts, we would 354 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: be bouncing back and forth between putting the floor together 355 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 1: and taking it apart, but we had to shoot it 356 00:19:01,770 --> 00:19:03,710 Speaker 1: in a way that we shot out the house in 357 00:19:03,770 --> 00:19:06,649 Speaker 1: its entirety, and then we just, over lunch, when I 358 00:19:06,690 --> 00:19:11,330 Speaker 1: tell you that over lunch, our crew flipped the stage 359 00:19:11,390 --> 00:19:13,590 Speaker 1: and ripped up all the floorboards and everything like that 360 00:19:13,650 --> 00:19:17,970 Speaker 1: and created the torn up space, It was a salute 361 00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:21,010 Speaker 1: achievement by our production design team and our crew to 362 00:19:21,050 --> 00:19:23,260 Speaker 1: build what they did in the way that they did. 363 00:19:23,300 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 3: And it was haunting. 364 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I'll say that I have done this for. 365 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 3: A long time. 366 00:19:28,460 --> 00:19:31,820 Speaker 1: I typically, on all of my shows, will find a 367 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: place on stage that I know most people won't. 368 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:36,940 Speaker 3: Be on any given day, so I can just kind 369 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 3: of go in there and work quietly. 370 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,300 Speaker 1: This was the first stage that I'd never went and 371 00:19:41,300 --> 00:19:44,270 Speaker 1: worked in because it was it was too disturbing. 372 00:19:58,780 --> 00:20:03,810 Speaker 2: Gacy himself had said, I mean, it's, he's so, he's 373 00:20:03,850 --> 00:20:07,510 Speaker 2: just so diabolical because it's like he gave all that. 374 00:20:07,790 --> 00:20:10,570 Speaker 2: He hired some of these boys to dig under there. 375 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 2: Because he couldn't fit under there himself. So he needed 376 00:20:15,020 --> 00:20:16,859 Speaker 2: someone else to assist. 377 00:20:17,140 --> 00:20:20,490 Speaker 1: And there's a reason why there are conspiracy theories out 378 00:20:20,530 --> 00:20:24,590 Speaker 1: there that there were others that helped him. And we 379 00:20:24,630 --> 00:20:25,530 Speaker 1: did not get into that. 380 00:20:26,109 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 2: Right. Because they think it's not possible that he could 381 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 2: have done all this himself. 382 00:20:30,980 --> 00:20:37,230 Speaker 3: Right. There is enough, and I apologize. 383 00:20:36,670 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: To your listeners that I have a few constraints on 384 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,260 Speaker 1: me from my partners at the studio and the network, 385 00:20:45,060 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: but it doesn't take a lot. 386 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,540 Speaker 3: To do a quick research on this. 387 00:20:49,580 --> 00:20:53,900 Speaker 1: There are a couple of his employees who they think 388 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,980 Speaker 1: knew what was going on and that they helped investigate. 389 00:20:56,980 --> 00:21:00,060 Speaker 1: in terms of digging underneath the floorboards. But there were 390 00:21:00,140 --> 00:21:01,060 Speaker 1: absolutely a couple of. 391 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,110 Speaker 3: Victims who didn't know that they were ultimately digging their 392 00:21:05,150 --> 00:21:07,370 Speaker 3: own graves in there as well. 393 00:21:08,030 --> 00:21:09,010 Speaker 2: Right, right. 394 00:21:09,030 --> 00:21:14,510 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so they always, they smelled the smells, they 395 00:21:14,570 --> 00:21:17,580 Speaker 1: knew something wasn't right, but the vast majority were just 396 00:21:17,619 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: in there partying with him and just thought his house 397 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,180 Speaker 1: smelled bad. 398 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:22,300 Speaker 3: Right. 399 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: Right. Right. Yeah. 400 00:21:23,780 --> 00:21:27,340 Speaker 2: Like just maybe wasn't the, the cleanest of guys. I mean, 401 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,940 Speaker 2: and you can, and especially we have to remember most 402 00:21:29,980 --> 00:21:34,550 Speaker 2: of these people were, you know, they were kids, teenagers 403 00:21:35,010 --> 00:21:37,550 Speaker 2: and they wanted to work. They just wanted to make money. 404 00:21:37,670 --> 00:21:40,550 Speaker 2: And if they could make money and party, like that's 405 00:21:40,609 --> 00:21:41,170 Speaker 2: a home run. 406 00:21:41,930 --> 00:21:43,260 Speaker 3: Correct. And that's what he offered. 407 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:49,820 Speaker 1: I mean, it's, it's, I mean, we never really, and purposefully, 408 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: because I don't care to really know what broke him. 409 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,109 Speaker 1: I fundamentally believe, and I know that Michael Chernus and 410 00:22:00,130 --> 00:22:02,770 Speaker 1: I talked about it often in the writer's room, we 411 00:22:02,810 --> 00:22:05,210 Speaker 1: talked about it all the time, that there was never 412 00:22:05,270 --> 00:22:07,189 Speaker 1: going to be a moment in this show that the 413 00:22:07,270 --> 00:22:10,810 Speaker 1: audiences were going to be able to the audience was 414 00:22:10,830 --> 00:22:13,209 Speaker 1: going to be able to pinpoint as us saying, this 415 00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:14,330 Speaker 1: is the reason why he did it. 416 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 3: And the reason. 417 00:22:16,420 --> 00:22:20,100 Speaker 1: Why is that the excuses that he made or could 418 00:22:20,140 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: make had something to do with an abusive father. The 419 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: excuses that he made or could make had something to 420 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:31,370 Speaker 1: do with his suppressed homosexuality, society not letting him be 421 00:22:31,470 --> 00:22:34,590 Speaker 1: who he really was. And what we always circled back 422 00:22:34,650 --> 00:22:38,629 Speaker 1: around to always circled back around you. Every time we 423 00:22:38,670 --> 00:22:42,300 Speaker 1: got like close to excusing it, we came back to 424 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,859 Speaker 1: the fact that there are millions, tens of millions, hundreds 425 00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:49,740 Speaker 1: of millions over the course of all of humanity of 426 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,340 Speaker 1: boys and girls who were abused by their parents who 427 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: didn't go and murder 33 people. And there are millions, 428 00:22:56,310 --> 00:22:59,210 Speaker 1: tens of millions, hundreds of millions of people who identify 429 00:22:59,250 --> 00:23:02,980 Speaker 1: as queer and who didn't go and murder 33 people. 430 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,510 Speaker 1: And so whatever excuses could be made for his psychology, 431 00:23:08,090 --> 00:23:10,590 Speaker 1: ultimately to your first point that you made, I think 432 00:23:10,650 --> 00:23:14,770 Speaker 1: comes down to nature instead of nurture and that he 433 00:23:14,890 --> 00:23:18,150 Speaker 1: just was evil and there was no. 434 00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:18,619 Speaker 3: Way around it. 435 00:23:18,790 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: That's a very reductive term to use, but I don't 436 00:23:22,420 --> 00:23:23,859 Speaker 1: know how else you explain this person. 437 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 3: I agree. 438 00:23:25,660 --> 00:23:25,980 Speaker 1: I agree. 439 00:23:27,540 --> 00:23:31,899 Speaker 2: You and your team actually tracked down the victims' families. 440 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 2: What did those families tell you they were most worried 441 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,030 Speaker 2: about when they heard that another John Wayne Gacy series 442 00:23:39,070 --> 00:23:39,730 Speaker 2: was being made? 443 00:23:39,750 --> 00:23:42,790 Speaker 1: I'm going to answer very quickly and then I'll get 444 00:23:42,810 --> 00:23:47,030 Speaker 1: a little bit in detail. We received zero responses back 445 00:23:47,070 --> 00:23:54,050 Speaker 1: that were worried. Very interesting. Because we didn't have to 446 00:23:54,109 --> 00:23:56,909 Speaker 1: reach out. That's not something that you legally have to 447 00:23:56,950 --> 00:24:00,290 Speaker 1: do in any way, shape or form. It was purely 448 00:24:00,369 --> 00:24:03,889 Speaker 1: something that was basically like the other thing that I 449 00:24:03,970 --> 00:24:06,129 Speaker 1: said to the student network, which was that this is 450 00:24:06,190 --> 00:24:06,850 Speaker 1: a non-starter. 451 00:24:06,869 --> 00:24:08,449 Speaker 3: I'm going to reach out to anyone that I can 452 00:24:08,470 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 3: get in contact with. 453 00:24:09,340 --> 00:24:11,340 Speaker 1: And it wasn't that I was looking for their blessings 454 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: and I was definitely not looking for them to share 455 00:24:13,859 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: information with me. 456 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 3: It was actually the opposite. 457 00:24:16,859 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: It was that I wanted them to be given the 458 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: opportunity to be able to tell me that they were 459 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: angry at me, that they were upset that it was happening. 460 00:24:24,940 --> 00:24:27,580 Speaker 1: And allow me the opportunity to be able to discuss 461 00:24:27,619 --> 00:24:31,650 Speaker 1: with them what I was going to try to accomplish 462 00:24:32,030 --> 00:24:32,310 Speaker 1: in this. 463 00:24:33,369 --> 00:24:37,250 Speaker 3: Um, and so we reached out to, to thankfully universal. 464 00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:39,410 Speaker 1: They did a very deep dive trying to find every 465 00:24:39,570 --> 00:24:43,629 Speaker 1: point of contact they could. We reached out to literally 466 00:24:43,710 --> 00:24:46,379 Speaker 1: every point of contact that we could find that was 467 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,140 Speaker 1: by some of them were just addresses. 468 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,060 Speaker 3: So there were letters that I sent. Some of them 469 00:24:50,100 --> 00:24:50,700 Speaker 3: were emails. 470 00:24:50,820 --> 00:24:53,020 Speaker 1: Some of them were phone calls that I just called rant, 471 00:24:53,060 --> 00:24:56,060 Speaker 1: like cold called numbers and didn't, I actually never got 472 00:24:56,100 --> 00:24:56,700 Speaker 1: a phone call. 473 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 3: Um, I never got a phone call back. 474 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: But the five or six family members that got back 475 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,010 Speaker 1: to me at that time that we were developing it, 476 00:25:06,050 --> 00:25:07,570 Speaker 1: they all sort of said, you know. 477 00:25:07,650 --> 00:25:11,710 Speaker 3: We wish you luck. We hope that you're able to 478 00:25:11,730 --> 00:25:14,430 Speaker 3: do it in a way that is respectful. But there 479 00:25:14,470 --> 00:25:15,490 Speaker 3: wasn't anyone. 480 00:25:15,190 --> 00:25:18,550 Speaker 1: Who rejected it wholesale. 481 00:25:19,859 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 3: I can tell you that I don't know how they 482 00:25:22,260 --> 00:25:22,740 Speaker 3: feel now. 483 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 2: Right? 484 00:25:23,740 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 3: I don't know. Now that it's been out, I have 485 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 3: no idea. 486 00:25:25,740 --> 00:25:26,140 Speaker 1: Right. 487 00:25:27,490 --> 00:25:30,889 Speaker 2: Did anything they say cause you to change something you 488 00:25:30,930 --> 00:25:33,770 Speaker 2: had planned to put. 489 00:25:33,310 --> 00:25:34,310 Speaker 3: In the show? 490 00:25:34,350 --> 00:25:37,869 Speaker 1: No. No, it didn't. There were only two phone calls. 491 00:25:40,340 --> 00:25:41,810 Speaker 1: There were a handful of people who got back to me. 492 00:25:41,820 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: So there were emails, and there were two phone calls 493 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,740 Speaker 1: that ultimately got back to me. And one of them, again, 494 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: I would prefer not to say who they were, but 495 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: one of them began to talk about the time and 496 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,420 Speaker 1: place of Chicago and how they felt like that affected 497 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,870 Speaker 1: the outcome for their relative, which was, which was interesting 498 00:26:02,910 --> 00:26:04,710 Speaker 1: to hear it out of their mouths as opposed to 499 00:26:04,750 --> 00:26:06,650 Speaker 1: just the research that we had done, but it supported 500 00:26:06,690 --> 00:26:07,570 Speaker 1: the research that we did. 501 00:26:07,930 --> 00:26:10,180 Speaker 3: But then it never got back. It never, we never got. 502 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,340 Speaker 1: Into specifics about who they were as people or what 503 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,100 Speaker 1: their family lives were like or anything like that. 504 00:26:17,050 --> 00:26:20,270 Speaker 2: All right, last question here on this. After we haven't 505 00:26:20,310 --> 00:26:23,909 Speaker 2: even talked about how John Wayne Gacy was associated with 506 00:26:23,950 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 2: this clown figure, which really that was sort of not really, 507 00:26:27,260 --> 00:26:31,620 Speaker 2: it was a bit of sensationalism. So what do you 508 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:36,580 Speaker 2: think that people fundamentally misunderstood about how John Wayne Gacy 509 00:26:36,619 --> 00:26:38,859 Speaker 2: was able to get away with murder for so long? 510 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,790 Speaker 2: Or what do you think they fundamentally misunderstand about him? 511 00:26:44,710 --> 00:26:46,810 Speaker 3: Look, I think that there are a couple of things. 512 00:26:47,470 --> 00:26:49,859 Speaker 1: First of all, I think it happened so long ago 513 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: that the vast majority of people actually don't have an 514 00:26:53,220 --> 00:26:54,900 Speaker 1: opinion on him other than the fact that he was 515 00:26:54,940 --> 00:26:58,430 Speaker 1: the clown killer. And I'll talk about that in a second. 516 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: I think that there was a small percentage of people 517 00:27:02,660 --> 00:27:04,899 Speaker 1: who probably came into the show understanding that there was 518 00:27:04,940 --> 00:27:09,379 Speaker 1: a breakdown in Chicago PD and how they approached it. 519 00:27:10,830 --> 00:27:14,050 Speaker 1: This is just my opinion. This is not rooted in 520 00:27:14,530 --> 00:27:19,690 Speaker 1: any data or anything or fact. I would imagine that 521 00:27:19,830 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: there were some who believed that he was a gay 522 00:27:22,859 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: killer and that just didn't really understand the nuances around 523 00:27:29,060 --> 00:27:33,910 Speaker 1: Gacy and his homosexuality or his queerness. But I think 524 00:27:33,930 --> 00:27:37,350 Speaker 1: the vast majority of people, especially, I mean, look, I'm 50. 525 00:27:36,990 --> 00:27:38,490 Speaker 3: Years old, right? 526 00:27:38,730 --> 00:27:42,580 Speaker 1: This basically predated me, right? 527 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,109 Speaker 3: And all I knew was, before I started to research it, 528 00:27:47,130 --> 00:27:48,290 Speaker 3: was that he was the clown killer. 529 00:27:48,310 --> 00:27:51,719 Speaker 1: And in fact, all I genuinely thought coming in that 530 00:27:51,780 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: he did dress as a clown and kill kids, right? 531 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,540 Speaker 1: And once I figured out that we were not going 532 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,020 Speaker 1: to show the murders, and once I figured out that 533 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: we were going to try to tell the backstories of 534 00:28:00,460 --> 00:28:04,409 Speaker 1: the victims without connecting them to Gacy, and once I 535 00:28:04,470 --> 00:28:07,590 Speaker 1: found out that there is no evidence that he dressed 536 00:28:07,630 --> 00:28:11,170 Speaker 1: as a clown as he killed his victims, I became 537 00:28:11,190 --> 00:28:17,090 Speaker 1: so set in stone probably to a fault, and I 538 00:28:17,109 --> 00:28:19,949 Speaker 1: can comment that if you would like or not, that 539 00:28:19,990 --> 00:28:23,930 Speaker 1: I rejected the clown completely, that I didn't want it 540 00:28:24,070 --> 00:28:24,770 Speaker 1: in the show. 541 00:28:25,470 --> 00:28:28,990 Speaker 3: And I didn't want it in our marketing at all. 542 00:28:30,070 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: I wanted this to be the anti-clown Gacy show. And 543 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:37,780 Speaker 1: I think I may have been a little bit too 544 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,060 Speaker 1: strident about that, almost to the detriment of the commerciality 545 00:28:43,100 --> 00:28:43,540 Speaker 1: of the show. 546 00:28:44,020 --> 00:28:44,260 Speaker 3: Right. 547 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 4: Well, they used it in the marketing. 548 00:28:46,420 --> 00:28:48,260 Speaker 2: They did. 549 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 4: It was a fight. 550 00:28:49,980 --> 00:28:53,290 Speaker 1: I will tell you that I was not supportive of it. 551 00:28:53,580 --> 00:28:55,180 Speaker 1: But I will tell you that if I could make 552 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,380 Speaker 1: a time machine and go back in time, I would 553 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,810 Speaker 1: have had them do clowns all over the place. Really. 554 00:29:02,890 --> 00:29:05,490 Speaker 1: Because I think we would have been more commercially successful. 555 00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:09,710 Speaker 1: And I think that if even more people came to 556 00:29:09,750 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: watch the show, then I would have been able to 557 00:29:11,620 --> 00:29:13,420 Speaker 1: tell the story that I wanted to tell, which was 558 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: come and watch this show, but I had to get 559 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,950 Speaker 1: them in their seats. And I think that I was 560 00:29:18,970 --> 00:29:21,310 Speaker 1: a little bit too purist about it. 561 00:29:21,310 --> 00:29:21,630 Speaker 3: Well, it is. 562 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,620 Speaker 2: Streaming on Peacock right now, Devil in Disguise. It is 563 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,330 Speaker 2: a very powerful series. So hopefully many more people will 564 00:29:34,370 --> 00:29:38,010 Speaker 2: watch it now. Patrick, you're just a dream. Thank you 565 00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:39,590 Speaker 2: so much for talking with me. 566 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 3: I'm going to call you every morning and have you 567 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,180 Speaker 3: say that. Do you mind? Because I need a little 568 00:29:43,220 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 3: bit more validation in my life. You're a dream. Have 569 00:29:45,220 --> 00:29:48,690 Speaker 3: a good day. Thank you. 570 00:29:48,710 --> 00:29:51,110 Speaker 1: This has been an absolute pleasure and I really appreciate 571 00:29:51,130 --> 00:29:52,890 Speaker 1: you plugging the show because everybody should go out and 572 00:29:52,930 --> 00:29:53,230 Speaker 1: watch it. 573 00:29:53,890 --> 00:29:56,210 Speaker 4: We are not done with Patrick McManus yet. 574 00:29:56,670 --> 00:29:59,450 Speaker 2: Next time on Killer Thriller, he'll be back to take 575 00:29:59,530 --> 00:30:03,469 Speaker 2: us inside his series, The Girl from Plainville, and the 576 00:30:03,510 --> 00:30:06,430 Speaker 2: real story behind the case that became known as the 577 00:30:06,470 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 2: texting suicide trial.