1 00:00:15,236 --> 00:00:31,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin abolition is not just about a reaction to the 2 00:00:31,956 --> 00:00:35,716 Speaker 1: prison industrial complex. We want to make sure that these 3 00:00:35,756 --> 00:00:39,636 Speaker 1: institutions are not normalized facets of our society anymore. That's 4 00:00:39,716 --> 00:00:49,796 Speaker 1: the work. In nineteen ninety five, political scientist John Deulio 5 00:00:50,236 --> 00:00:54,796 Speaker 1: predicted that a wave of adolescent superpredators would soon corrupt 6 00:00:54,836 --> 00:00:59,796 Speaker 1: our streets and fill American prisons. A superpredator is a 7 00:00:59,996 --> 00:01:05,676 Speaker 1: young juvenile criminal who is so impulsive, so remorseless, that 8 00:01:05,836 --> 00:01:09,556 Speaker 1: he can kill, rape, name without a giving it a 9 00:01:09,596 --> 00:01:15,356 Speaker 1: second thought. Diulio wrote that on the horizon are tens 10 00:01:15,356 --> 00:01:20,716 Speaker 1: of thousands of severely morally impoverished juvenile super predators. They 11 00:01:20,716 --> 00:01:23,836 Speaker 1: are perfectly capable of committing the most heinous acts of 12 00:01:23,916 --> 00:01:27,596 Speaker 1: physical violence for the most trivial reason. They fear neither 13 00:01:27,636 --> 00:01:31,836 Speaker 1: the stigma of arrest nor the pain of imprisonment. They 14 00:01:31,916 --> 00:01:35,476 Speaker 1: live by the meanest code of the meanest streets. He wrote, 15 00:01:36,276 --> 00:01:39,676 Speaker 1: nothing else matters to them, so for as long as 16 00:01:39,716 --> 00:01:46,236 Speaker 1: their youthful energies hold out, they will do what comes naturally. Murder, rape, 17 00:01:46,516 --> 00:01:53,836 Speaker 1: rob assault, burglarized, deal deadly drugs, and get high. Diulio 18 00:01:54,036 --> 00:01:57,596 Speaker 1: was not talking about adults. He was talking about teams 19 00:01:58,076 --> 00:02:02,396 Speaker 1: middle schoolers more than high schoolers. He was talking about 20 00:02:02,436 --> 00:02:07,356 Speaker 1: people like me. I was thirteen years old in nineteen 21 00:02:07,436 --> 00:02:12,676 Speaker 1: ninety five. Was I a superpredator or was I fearing 22 00:02:13,196 --> 00:02:24,356 Speaker 1: the superpredator? I'm Abramax Kendy, and this is be anti racist. 23 00:02:26,036 --> 00:02:33,316 Speaker 1: Being a black man in America isn't easy. The hunt 24 00:02:33,556 --> 00:02:41,556 Speaker 1: is on and you're the prey. Menace to society came 25 00:02:41,556 --> 00:02:44,756 Speaker 1: out in nineteen ninety three, and by the time the 26 00:02:44,876 --> 00:02:48,636 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four crime Bill was passed, crime rates had 27 00:02:48,676 --> 00:02:54,116 Speaker 1: already started falling. We together are taking a big step 28 00:02:54,676 --> 00:02:56,956 Speaker 1: toward bringing the laws of our land back in the 29 00:02:57,076 --> 00:03:00,636 Speaker 1: line with the values of our people and beginning to 30 00:03:00,836 --> 00:03:07,316 Speaker 1: restore the line between right and wrong. Today, pundits and 31 00:03:07,396 --> 00:03:11,316 Speaker 1: politicians talk about a wave or a violent crime wave 32 00:03:11,556 --> 00:03:17,276 Speaker 1: in American cities, but many crimes, from larcenese to robberies 33 00:03:17,276 --> 00:03:21,596 Speaker 1: to rape dropped during the pandemic and continued to fall 34 00:03:21,676 --> 00:03:26,276 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one. Only homicides have increased as other 35 00:03:26,316 --> 00:03:30,716 Speaker 1: crimes fell. But the increase in homicides beginning in twenty 36 00:03:30,796 --> 00:03:35,116 Speaker 1: twenty happened across cities and towns of all sizes, from 37 00:03:35,116 --> 00:03:39,036 Speaker 1: small towns with fewer than ten thousand residents to cities 38 00:03:39,036 --> 00:03:45,156 Speaker 1: with more than one million. Diulio later recanted his own 39 00:03:45,196 --> 00:03:48,756 Speaker 1: thesis that superpredators who looked like me were going to 40 00:03:48,796 --> 00:03:53,756 Speaker 1: overrun this nation with crime. The superpreditor idea was wrong 41 00:03:54,556 --> 00:03:56,516 Speaker 1: once it was out there. Though it was out there, 42 00:03:56,716 --> 00:04:00,796 Speaker 1: there was no realing it. In the old racist caricature, 43 00:04:01,236 --> 00:04:06,836 Speaker 1: preyed on black people as dangerous animals. In the racist imaginary, 44 00:04:07,276 --> 00:04:10,996 Speaker 1: the root cause of crime and in black neighborhoods is 45 00:04:11,036 --> 00:04:14,356 Speaker 1: the blackness of the people. To be black, in this 46 00:04:14,476 --> 00:04:17,476 Speaker 1: view is to be an animal, and the way to 47 00:04:17,516 --> 00:04:22,356 Speaker 1: control those animals is with the surveilling, policing, profiling, arresting, 48 00:04:22,396 --> 00:04:27,236 Speaker 1: and punishing power of the state. Our state, the United States, 49 00:04:27,676 --> 00:04:31,756 Speaker 1: has the largest incarcerated population in the world, and only 50 00:04:31,796 --> 00:04:36,996 Speaker 1: the US and Chinese militaries cost more than American policing. 51 00:04:38,156 --> 00:04:41,076 Speaker 1: For a long time, in this country, the preyed upon 52 00:04:41,196 --> 00:04:46,716 Speaker 1: have been considered dangerous. Indigenous people were considered dangerous, not 53 00:04:46,796 --> 00:04:51,596 Speaker 1: the settlers and armies waging landstealing wars and massacres. My 54 00:04:51,796 --> 00:04:56,916 Speaker 1: enslaved ancestors were considered dangerous, not the enslavers subjugating them 55 00:04:56,956 --> 00:05:02,116 Speaker 1: through violence. Immigrants have been considered dangerous, Not the nativists 56 00:05:02,156 --> 00:05:06,796 Speaker 1: harassing and attacking and exploiting them. Teens playing with toy 57 00:05:06,876 --> 00:05:10,516 Speaker 1: guns or walking home from the store snacking on skittles 58 00:05:10,956 --> 00:05:14,716 Speaker 1: have been considered dangerous, not the cops and want to 59 00:05:14,716 --> 00:05:19,676 Speaker 1: be cops who murdered them. Black communities are considered dangerous, 60 00:05:20,076 --> 00:05:24,276 Speaker 1: not the communities of politicians depriving those areas of resources 61 00:05:24,276 --> 00:05:28,956 Speaker 1: and opportunities. Not the gangster capital exploiting those communities, Not 62 00:05:29,076 --> 00:05:32,956 Speaker 1: the police officers brutalizing Black people like we are predators. 63 00:05:34,076 --> 00:05:41,396 Speaker 1: When will the American people redirect their fear. Welcome to 64 00:05:41,516 --> 00:05:45,956 Speaker 1: Be Anti Racist an action podcast where we discuss how 65 00:05:45,996 --> 00:05:50,476 Speaker 1: to diagnose, dismantle, and abolish racism, how to save humanity 66 00:05:50,596 --> 00:05:54,476 Speaker 1: from the divisiveness of racist ideas and the destructiveness of 67 00:05:54,556 --> 00:05:58,476 Speaker 1: racist power and policy, How to free humanity through the 68 00:05:58,596 --> 00:06:02,636 Speaker 1: unity of anti racist ideas and the constructiveness of anti 69 00:06:02,756 --> 00:06:07,716 Speaker 1: racist power and policy. On Be Anti Racist, we discuss 70 00:06:08,156 --> 00:06:11,156 Speaker 1: how to make them possible, possible, and how to bring 71 00:06:11,156 --> 00:06:15,396 Speaker 1: into being what modern humans have never known, a just 72 00:06:16,036 --> 00:06:35,116 Speaker 1: and equitable world. You ready, let's roll. The criminal legal 73 00:06:35,196 --> 00:06:40,116 Speaker 1: system focuses on individuals who have done harm, while abolitionists 74 00:06:40,156 --> 00:06:44,996 Speaker 1: consider the larger social economic and political context in which 75 00:06:45,036 --> 00:06:48,916 Speaker 1: the harm occurs. These are the words of one of 76 00:06:48,916 --> 00:06:54,476 Speaker 1: America's most influential abolitionist, Miriam Kaba. She is the founder 77 00:06:54,476 --> 00:06:57,996 Speaker 1: of Project Nia, an organization that aims to end the 78 00:06:58,076 --> 00:07:02,276 Speaker 1: incarceration of children and young adults by promoting restorative and 79 00:07:02,356 --> 00:07:06,716 Speaker 1: transformative justice practices. She is the author of the New 80 00:07:06,796 --> 00:07:11,436 Speaker 1: York Times bestseller We Do Till We Free US Abolitionists 81 00:07:11,596 --> 00:07:16,036 Speaker 1: Organizing and Transforming justice. If you want to understand the 82 00:07:16,076 --> 00:07:20,116 Speaker 1: perspective of those Americans calling for the defunding and abolishing 83 00:07:20,116 --> 00:07:23,556 Speaker 1: of the police, I encourage you to read this book. 84 00:07:24,796 --> 00:07:29,156 Speaker 1: While other Americans are committed to feeling secure, Kaba is 85 00:07:29,196 --> 00:07:33,316 Speaker 1: committed to being safe. We discussed why she doesn't believe 86 00:07:33,356 --> 00:07:39,076 Speaker 1: a society of mass surveillance, policing, punishment, incarceration will ever 87 00:07:39,196 --> 00:07:43,916 Speaker 1: allow us to build a safe society, and what will. 88 00:07:45,156 --> 00:07:48,436 Speaker 1: I've been looking forward to our conversation for quite some time. 89 00:07:48,556 --> 00:07:51,796 Speaker 1: I admire your work, and of course you've been in 90 00:07:51,836 --> 00:07:55,756 Speaker 1: this struggle for years. Well, thanks for inviting me to 91 00:07:55,836 --> 00:07:58,436 Speaker 1: be part of this conversation. I appreciate your work, so 92 00:07:58,916 --> 00:08:03,996 Speaker 1: it's a pleasure. What's fascinating about your work is your 93 00:08:05,076 --> 00:08:11,476 Speaker 1: precise and critical attention to terminology, and I share that, 94 00:08:11,556 --> 00:08:15,716 Speaker 1: so I'm always trying to be quite precise in the 95 00:08:15,756 --> 00:08:18,756 Speaker 1: words that I use and the definitions that I utilize. 96 00:08:18,956 --> 00:08:22,436 Speaker 1: So to give an example, you don't use the term 97 00:08:22,836 --> 00:08:28,756 Speaker 1: criminal justice system. Why, Yeah, I started using the term 98 00:08:28,796 --> 00:08:35,836 Speaker 1: criminal punishment system. I don't know, probably about fifteen years ago. 99 00:08:36,076 --> 00:08:41,556 Speaker 1: The term really for me was important because it is 100 00:08:41,596 --> 00:08:44,916 Speaker 1: what the system actually is. It is what the system 101 00:08:44,996 --> 00:08:51,516 Speaker 1: actually does. Why do we incarceerate people? We've heard that 102 00:08:51,596 --> 00:08:55,996 Speaker 1: it is deterrence. All people who believe in empirical science 103 00:08:56,356 --> 00:08:59,516 Speaker 1: tell us that actually, incarceration doesn't deter anybody from anything. 104 00:09:00,076 --> 00:09:03,596 Speaker 1: There's a lot of euphemistic talk, in particular as it 105 00:09:03,636 --> 00:09:08,756 Speaker 1: relates to issues of incarceration and issues of policing. It's 106 00:09:08,756 --> 00:09:12,756 Speaker 1: actually really very intentional in many ways, because when you 107 00:09:12,836 --> 00:09:19,436 Speaker 1: obscure the actual material impacts of institutions, you really can 108 00:09:19,876 --> 00:09:24,956 Speaker 1: do anything to people. You can justify anything. We have 109 00:09:25,076 --> 00:09:31,556 Speaker 1: been told that incarceration is for quote rehabilitation. Well, we 110 00:09:31,756 --> 00:09:36,476 Speaker 1: know for a fact that incarceration is criminogenic, which means 111 00:09:36,516 --> 00:09:39,356 Speaker 1: that people who actually enter the first time are more 112 00:09:39,396 --> 00:09:42,436 Speaker 1: likely to enter over and over and over again than 113 00:09:42,516 --> 00:09:45,876 Speaker 1: they are to quote. Get well, if you hear stories 114 00:09:45,876 --> 00:09:49,116 Speaker 1: of people who say prison really saved my life, those 115 00:09:49,156 --> 00:09:53,676 Speaker 1: are very much exceptions. And when you ask those people, okay, well, 116 00:09:53,676 --> 00:09:56,876 Speaker 1: what else could have saved your life, you know, prior 117 00:09:56,996 --> 00:09:59,996 Speaker 1: to ending up behind bars, they will tell you a 118 00:10:00,116 --> 00:10:02,756 Speaker 1: million different things that could have actually prevented them from 119 00:10:02,756 --> 00:10:04,556 Speaker 1: getting in the first place. And if you gave them 120 00:10:04,556 --> 00:10:08,556 Speaker 1: a choice between using that versus going to prison, they 121 00:10:08,596 --> 00:10:10,796 Speaker 1: always will tell you the preventative stuff would have been 122 00:10:10,876 --> 00:10:15,716 Speaker 1: much better. People are much more comfortable using words that 123 00:10:15,716 --> 00:10:19,396 Speaker 1: don't implicate them in the harms that are occurring under 124 00:10:19,396 --> 00:10:23,356 Speaker 1: our name and with our money and with our support, 125 00:10:23,796 --> 00:10:27,476 Speaker 1: whether it's public opinion support, whether it's our silence, which 126 00:10:27,516 --> 00:10:31,196 Speaker 1: is tacit support. So I started using the term criminal 127 00:10:31,236 --> 00:10:36,396 Speaker 1: punishment system for that purpose. You use the term cage 128 00:10:37,756 --> 00:10:40,196 Speaker 1: regularly people being cage. And let me just tell you, 129 00:10:40,236 --> 00:10:43,796 Speaker 1: I went to graduate school at Temple and so I 130 00:10:43,836 --> 00:10:47,836 Speaker 1: spent a lot of my years in North Philadelphia. I 131 00:10:47,836 --> 00:10:50,356 Speaker 1: would hit up this barbershop close to my house. There's 132 00:10:50,396 --> 00:10:54,596 Speaker 1: a working class, working poor area in North Philly, and 133 00:10:54,676 --> 00:10:57,836 Speaker 1: I never forget waiting for my haircut. Dude was taken 134 00:10:57,836 --> 00:11:02,756 Speaker 1: forever and the brother in the chair. The barber of 135 00:11:02,756 --> 00:11:04,796 Speaker 1: course asked him, oh, you know, what's been good with you? 136 00:11:04,956 --> 00:11:08,076 Speaker 1: How have you been doing? And he said, I just 137 00:11:08,156 --> 00:11:11,196 Speaker 1: got out of boundage. I just got out of my cage. 138 00:11:12,116 --> 00:11:15,356 Speaker 1: Until did use of that term cage? Why that term? Well, 139 00:11:15,356 --> 00:11:19,756 Speaker 1: actually that I got from incarcerated friends, and I got 140 00:11:19,756 --> 00:11:22,636 Speaker 1: from comrades on the inside. It's not something I invented. 141 00:11:22,916 --> 00:11:25,916 Speaker 1: When I started writing to incarcerated people, like twenty five 142 00:11:25,996 --> 00:11:28,996 Speaker 1: years ago, they would talk about being in a cage. 143 00:11:29,356 --> 00:11:34,156 Speaker 1: It was a politicized term they created to convey what 144 00:11:34,196 --> 00:11:38,996 Speaker 1: they wanted me to understand about enclosure and about capture 145 00:11:39,876 --> 00:11:44,396 Speaker 1: and about dehumanization that was occurring for them on a 146 00:11:44,476 --> 00:11:48,076 Speaker 1: regular basis. So I just have gone with what the 147 00:11:48,156 --> 00:11:51,516 Speaker 1: people I'm in community and relationship with have told me 148 00:11:52,116 --> 00:11:55,556 Speaker 1: about their own experience, using their own language. The people 149 00:11:55,596 --> 00:12:00,836 Speaker 1: who are locked up are constantly fighting against their dehumanization 150 00:12:00,996 --> 00:12:06,716 Speaker 1: by reclaiming and insisting on their humanity. It's a description 151 00:12:06,796 --> 00:12:09,556 Speaker 1: that feels apt, at least to the people that I 152 00:12:09,636 --> 00:12:12,756 Speaker 1: know and care about. Another term, of course, is the 153 00:12:12,876 --> 00:12:16,556 Speaker 1: term abolitionist. And so if you could just shared what 154 00:12:16,596 --> 00:12:20,836 Speaker 1: it means to you, I've always tried to define abolition 155 00:12:20,916 --> 00:12:25,036 Speaker 1: as a vision of a restructured society and world, a 156 00:12:25,156 --> 00:12:29,876 Speaker 1: world where we have everything we need to live dignified vives, 157 00:12:29,916 --> 00:12:34,796 Speaker 1: food and shelter and education and health and beauty and 158 00:12:35,156 --> 00:12:40,036 Speaker 1: art and clean water and everything else. Abolition is not 159 00:12:40,276 --> 00:12:43,916 Speaker 1: just about a reaction to the prison industrial complex, so 160 00:12:44,076 --> 00:12:48,876 Speaker 1: that's a central aspect of it. It's really a commitment 161 00:12:49,076 --> 00:12:53,436 Speaker 1: to making the conditions that would lead to people feeling 162 00:12:53,476 --> 00:12:58,356 Speaker 1: those institutions are necessary impossible. That's the work. We want 163 00:12:58,396 --> 00:13:01,916 Speaker 1: to make sure that these institutions are not normalized facets 164 00:13:01,916 --> 00:13:05,596 Speaker 1: of our society anymore, at least for me. That's prison 165 00:13:05,596 --> 00:13:08,756 Speaker 1: industrial complex abolition. It pushes us to break with the 166 00:13:08,796 --> 00:13:13,596 Speaker 1: current order. It pushes us to say not this, while 167 00:13:13,756 --> 00:13:18,676 Speaker 1: simultaneously forging new ground and building a different world. I'm 168 00:13:18,716 --> 00:13:23,956 Speaker 1: a PC abolitionist in its simplest terms because I want 169 00:13:23,996 --> 00:13:29,636 Speaker 1: to dismantle a system that is predicated on premature death 170 00:13:30,396 --> 00:13:34,956 Speaker 1: and as doctor Ruth Wilson Gilmour teaches us on organized abandonment, 171 00:13:35,556 --> 00:13:39,076 Speaker 1: and I want instead to build one that is focused 172 00:13:39,076 --> 00:13:44,036 Speaker 1: on life and true safety at bottom at its crux. 173 00:13:44,436 --> 00:13:49,436 Speaker 1: That's why I'm a prison industrial complex abolitionist. What I 174 00:13:49,516 --> 00:13:54,396 Speaker 1: have found in my conversations with people trying to get 175 00:13:54,436 --> 00:13:59,676 Speaker 1: them to imagine that different type of world is. They 176 00:13:59,756 --> 00:14:03,356 Speaker 1: get caught up typically in a term that you also 177 00:14:03,436 --> 00:14:06,196 Speaker 1: don't use, and that's the term bad people. And it 178 00:14:06,236 --> 00:14:10,556 Speaker 1: reminds me of teaching and Jula Davis is our prisons 179 00:14:10,676 --> 00:14:15,596 Speaker 1: absolute in a graduate course, and everybody was okay with 180 00:14:15,636 --> 00:14:19,996 Speaker 1: people who commit drug crimes and your non violent offenses. 181 00:14:20,196 --> 00:14:21,996 Speaker 1: But then when it was like, oh, what are we 182 00:14:22,036 --> 00:14:24,876 Speaker 1: going to do with the bad people, meaning the serial 183 00:14:24,996 --> 00:14:28,876 Speaker 1: rapists and killers? That that's where everyone got hung up. 184 00:14:29,436 --> 00:14:31,276 Speaker 1: What are we going to do with them if we 185 00:14:31,316 --> 00:14:35,236 Speaker 1: don't have prisons and police and mass surveillance. How do 186 00:14:35,316 --> 00:14:39,276 Speaker 1: you typically respond to that? Always say, tell me a 187 00:14:39,356 --> 00:14:42,036 Speaker 1: little bit about what it is that you're concerned about. 188 00:14:42,316 --> 00:14:44,796 Speaker 1: I'm not going to engage you in a conversation about 189 00:14:44,836 --> 00:14:47,436 Speaker 1: the quote unquote bad people. I think there are people 190 00:14:47,436 --> 00:14:51,756 Speaker 1: who do bad things. That's my inclination. As somebody who 191 00:14:51,876 --> 00:14:57,076 Speaker 1: is steeped in the ideas of transformative justice. I get that, 192 00:14:57,436 --> 00:15:00,076 Speaker 1: but I try not to spend all my time getting 193 00:15:00,076 --> 00:15:04,196 Speaker 1: caught up in people's law and order vision, like television 194 00:15:04,316 --> 00:15:08,476 Speaker 1: vision of the serial rapists in the bushes. So I'll 195 00:15:08,516 --> 00:15:10,716 Speaker 1: lost people like, are you asking me how you're going 196 00:15:10,756 --> 00:15:14,876 Speaker 1: to keep yourself safe? Is that the question? And they 197 00:15:14,956 --> 00:15:18,356 Speaker 1: might say, well, yeah, I guess, And I'll say, well, 198 00:15:18,356 --> 00:15:20,636 Speaker 1: how are you doing that now? In this world that 199 00:15:20,676 --> 00:15:23,956 Speaker 1: we have, where there are prisons and policing and surveillance 200 00:15:23,956 --> 00:15:28,116 Speaker 1: and billions and billions of dollars afforded to those institutions, 201 00:15:28,156 --> 00:15:30,876 Speaker 1: How do you keep yourself safe today? How often do 202 00:15:30,956 --> 00:15:34,516 Speaker 1: you rely on the criminal punishment system? Within that conceptualization, 203 00:15:35,476 --> 00:15:37,836 Speaker 1: right like have you called the cops in the last year, 204 00:15:38,596 --> 00:15:42,556 Speaker 1: the last five years, the last ten when you've been harmed? 205 00:15:42,956 --> 00:15:44,876 Speaker 1: Have any of the people who've harmed you ended up 206 00:15:44,916 --> 00:15:50,036 Speaker 1: behind bars? The questions actually help people to pinpoint what 207 00:15:50,156 --> 00:15:54,396 Speaker 1: it is they're fearful about and work on that. Let's 208 00:15:54,476 --> 00:15:59,796 Speaker 1: figure out how to create the spaces and the institutions 209 00:15:59,836 --> 00:16:03,076 Speaker 1: and what it is we need to feel safe in 210 00:16:03,116 --> 00:16:07,676 Speaker 1: our communities. That is at the bottom of what abolitionists 211 00:16:07,676 --> 00:16:11,236 Speaker 1: care about. We care about harm, which is why we 212 00:16:11,316 --> 00:16:14,716 Speaker 1: purposely don't use the term crime because a lot of 213 00:16:14,756 --> 00:16:17,396 Speaker 1: things that are criminal are not harmful to many other people, 214 00:16:17,796 --> 00:16:20,076 Speaker 1: and a lot of things that are harmful are not criminalized. 215 00:16:20,236 --> 00:16:22,556 Speaker 1: So what are we really talking about here, we're talking 216 00:16:22,596 --> 00:16:26,156 Speaker 1: about harm, and once that becomes clear to people, people 217 00:16:26,196 --> 00:16:30,996 Speaker 1: are much more open to hearing out ideas for other 218 00:16:31,036 --> 00:16:35,076 Speaker 1: ways of thinking about how we make safety for ourselves 219 00:16:35,156 --> 00:16:38,796 Speaker 1: and for our communities. As we're making a different world, 220 00:16:39,716 --> 00:16:42,316 Speaker 1: we will come to other answers for how we handle 221 00:16:42,436 --> 00:16:46,796 Speaker 1: various kinds of things. The answers provided now don't work 222 00:16:46,876 --> 00:16:48,996 Speaker 1: and don't actually do what it is that people say 223 00:16:49,036 --> 00:16:51,236 Speaker 1: they want to have done. Yeah, and that can be 224 00:16:51,236 --> 00:16:56,916 Speaker 1: proven empirically. Yeah, so let's do something else. You also 225 00:16:56,996 --> 00:17:01,876 Speaker 1: talk about that people have been indoctrinated by the idea 226 00:17:01,956 --> 00:17:06,436 Speaker 1: that these institutions are holding that harm at bay, or 227 00:17:06,476 --> 00:17:10,436 Speaker 1: that we solve problems of harm through these institutions. Right. 228 00:17:10,716 --> 00:17:14,076 Speaker 1: You wrote that the hegemony of the police is so 229 00:17:14,156 --> 00:17:17,956 Speaker 1: complete that we often can't begin to imagine a world 230 00:17:18,036 --> 00:17:21,196 Speaker 1: without the institution. It is actually the case in my 231 00:17:21,276 --> 00:17:24,036 Speaker 1: experience that people are more likely to be able to 232 00:17:24,076 --> 00:17:26,716 Speaker 1: imagine a world without prisons than they are a world 233 00:17:26,716 --> 00:17:30,356 Speaker 1: without police and policing. There are lots of reasons for that. 234 00:17:30,676 --> 00:17:33,356 Speaker 1: As you were growing up, when did you first come 235 00:17:33,396 --> 00:17:39,596 Speaker 1: to consciousness about the existence of a police officer? Probably 236 00:17:39,796 --> 00:17:43,956 Speaker 1: what eight or nine years old? Yeah, so eight or nine, 237 00:17:44,196 --> 00:17:47,676 Speaker 1: and I would push even further and say, you probably 238 00:17:47,676 --> 00:17:51,996 Speaker 1: played games like Cops and Robbers when you were even smaller, probably, 239 00:17:52,236 --> 00:17:56,036 Speaker 1: and you probably had some sort of toys that also 240 00:17:56,156 --> 00:18:00,076 Speaker 1: spoke to the issue of cops. The cops are literally, 241 00:18:00,316 --> 00:18:03,356 Speaker 1: for us in the United States and now around the world, 242 00:18:03,996 --> 00:18:09,676 Speaker 1: like the weather. They are so part of our day 243 00:18:09,876 --> 00:18:13,356 Speaker 1: existence that often we don't even think about them, and 244 00:18:13,556 --> 00:18:16,836 Speaker 1: you don't question, You just don't. You just don't question 245 00:18:17,196 --> 00:18:20,876 Speaker 1: that they should exist. For many people, their lives are 246 00:18:20,916 --> 00:18:24,756 Speaker 1: structured in a way where the cops only exist when 247 00:18:24,756 --> 00:18:28,716 Speaker 1: they are called, hardly ever seen in the landscape of 248 00:18:28,716 --> 00:18:32,996 Speaker 1: their communities, never in their schools. And they are able 249 00:18:33,036 --> 00:18:36,196 Speaker 1: to live that way because the cops are enforcing violence 250 00:18:36,316 --> 00:18:39,996 Speaker 1: on all these other communities. They are surveilling all these 251 00:18:39,996 --> 00:18:43,596 Speaker 1: other communities, they are quote policing all these other communities. 252 00:18:43,956 --> 00:18:48,876 Speaker 1: It comes from a socialization that is so deeply rooted 253 00:18:49,196 --> 00:18:52,996 Speaker 1: within our culture so as to not even allow us 254 00:18:53,036 --> 00:18:56,716 Speaker 1: to be able to think outside of it. The television 255 00:18:56,796 --> 00:19:01,636 Speaker 1: shows and the billboards when you're driving sometime long distance. 256 00:19:01,916 --> 00:19:06,156 Speaker 1: Look at how many advertisements in billboards speak to policing 257 00:19:06,196 --> 00:19:10,036 Speaker 1: in some way. It's a miracle frankly, if some of 258 00:19:10,116 --> 00:19:12,796 Speaker 1: us come to consciousness and we begin to question their 259 00:19:12,836 --> 00:19:16,476 Speaker 1: existence and we begin to say, why does it have 260 00:19:16,596 --> 00:19:19,996 Speaker 1: to be this way? Actually? And then there's a personalization. 261 00:19:20,076 --> 00:19:23,236 Speaker 1: My uncle Johnny's a good cop, right, like, I'm not 262 00:19:23,236 --> 00:19:27,876 Speaker 1: talking about your uncle Johnny. Police and policing. Yes, So 263 00:19:27,916 --> 00:19:31,276 Speaker 1: I think that that's really where all these things live, 264 00:19:31,596 --> 00:19:35,276 Speaker 1: in real ways that have impacts on our ability to 265 00:19:35,396 --> 00:19:38,916 Speaker 1: actually be able to even conceptualize a different way. And 266 00:19:39,076 --> 00:19:41,956 Speaker 1: anything you offer that would be a different way gets 267 00:19:41,956 --> 00:19:46,756 Speaker 1: interpreted through the lens of a very personalized affront to 268 00:19:46,876 --> 00:19:51,636 Speaker 1: your belief system. Or there's just no other option. This 269 00:19:51,716 --> 00:19:54,876 Speaker 1: is all inevitable. It's always been this way. And I 270 00:19:54,956 --> 00:19:58,516 Speaker 1: love the quote by David Graber. We made the world 271 00:19:58,956 --> 00:20:01,636 Speaker 1: and we can just as easily make it different. It's 272 00:20:01,676 --> 00:20:04,876 Speaker 1: a terrible paraphrase of his words, but that was something 273 00:20:04,916 --> 00:20:07,876 Speaker 1: that gave me so much power and an ability to 274 00:20:07,956 --> 00:20:10,516 Speaker 1: be like, well, yes, the world is organized this way 275 00:20:10,556 --> 00:20:13,156 Speaker 1: because we've organized it this way. It doesn't have to 276 00:20:13,196 --> 00:20:16,756 Speaker 1: be exactly. Of course, different things can happen. They've always happened. 277 00:20:21,436 --> 00:20:24,876 Speaker 1: I'm Mariam Tava and you're listening to be anti racist 278 00:20:25,156 --> 00:20:37,396 Speaker 1: with Debram X can. I think the indoctrination has created 279 00:20:37,476 --> 00:20:45,076 Speaker 1: this simple formula that when you have less police in prisons, 280 00:20:45,596 --> 00:20:50,156 Speaker 1: there's more quote unquote crime, and correct me if I'm wrong, 281 00:20:50,716 --> 00:20:54,756 Speaker 1: But what you're ultimately stating is that when you have 282 00:20:54,996 --> 00:20:59,316 Speaker 1: more police in prisons, you're actually going to have more harm. 283 00:21:00,356 --> 00:21:03,876 Speaker 1: To me, that's true on its face, because they are 284 00:21:04,076 --> 00:21:07,476 Speaker 1: inherently violent institutions that cause harm. They don't just exist 285 00:21:07,596 --> 00:21:11,476 Speaker 1: in a neutral capacity. They're in the way, right. So 286 00:21:11,836 --> 00:21:13,996 Speaker 1: that's one thing. But I think the second thing I 287 00:21:13,996 --> 00:21:16,716 Speaker 1: want to push back on that the Academy and the 288 00:21:16,836 --> 00:21:22,276 Speaker 1: researchers and all these crime industrial complex folks have conflated 289 00:21:22,356 --> 00:21:25,796 Speaker 1: things that I'm not sure go together. So, for example, 290 00:21:26,116 --> 00:21:30,276 Speaker 1: I constantly get told prisons have an impact on quote 291 00:21:30,276 --> 00:21:33,836 Speaker 1: crime rates, and I always have to ask, which crimes 292 00:21:33,836 --> 00:21:37,036 Speaker 1: are you talking about? Supposedly, how do you empirically know 293 00:21:37,116 --> 00:21:40,316 Speaker 1: this to be true? The Academy of Sciences did this 294 00:21:40,596 --> 00:21:46,756 Speaker 1: massive literature review of all these experimental and empirical studies 295 00:21:46,996 --> 00:21:50,796 Speaker 1: and found that incarceration actually had a very negligible impact 296 00:21:50,876 --> 00:21:55,596 Speaker 1: on supposed crime rates. If the relationship you're making between 297 00:21:55,636 --> 00:21:59,916 Speaker 1: the prisons and crime it's actually very little, what might 298 00:21:59,996 --> 00:22:03,436 Speaker 1: it look like not to have them causing harm in 299 00:22:03,476 --> 00:22:06,956 Speaker 1: the communities, we may actually get further because we would 300 00:22:06,956 --> 00:22:11,076 Speaker 1: have all these resources that we could appropriate into communities 301 00:22:11,316 --> 00:22:14,916 Speaker 1: to actually take care of people's needs, therefore making it 302 00:22:15,076 --> 00:22:17,556 Speaker 1: even less likely that people would have to quote turn 303 00:22:17,636 --> 00:22:20,996 Speaker 1: to crime to be able to actually sustain a life. 304 00:22:21,516 --> 00:22:25,956 Speaker 1: Yet the notion of these institutions being criminal enterprises themselves 305 00:22:26,356 --> 00:22:29,316 Speaker 1: that gets pushed aside. Yes, what about the studies that 306 00:22:29,356 --> 00:22:34,156 Speaker 1: show how much police contribute to homicide rates. I'm seeing 307 00:22:34,156 --> 00:22:38,116 Speaker 1: those They're killing a thousand people a year. Why does 308 00:22:38,116 --> 00:22:41,356 Speaker 1: that just get taken out and not treated as part 309 00:22:41,396 --> 00:22:44,196 Speaker 1: of this notion. If you say that your issue is 310 00:22:44,196 --> 00:22:49,316 Speaker 1: to eradicate violence, I'm actually anti prison, anti policing, and 311 00:22:49,356 --> 00:22:53,836 Speaker 1: anti surveillance because I'm anti violence. Yes, And when you 312 00:22:53,996 --> 00:23:00,756 Speaker 1: believe that prisons, surveillance, and police are going to reduce 313 00:23:01,156 --> 00:23:05,516 Speaker 1: harm and violence, you're going to fund them. Yeah. The 314 00:23:05,556 --> 00:23:09,556 Speaker 1: combined cost of US policing is more than not only 315 00:23:09,596 --> 00:23:12,876 Speaker 1: every other police force in the world, but every other 316 00:23:13,076 --> 00:23:16,716 Speaker 1: military in the world, aside from the Chinese and US military. 317 00:23:17,436 --> 00:23:20,196 Speaker 1: And then what are you not going to fund? Right? 318 00:23:20,356 --> 00:23:24,156 Speaker 1: And then how will that lack of funding for healthcare 319 00:23:24,276 --> 00:23:28,556 Speaker 1: for jobs, for education, for housing, for mental health services, 320 00:23:28,716 --> 00:23:32,156 Speaker 1: then lead to harm and violence. It seems to us 321 00:23:32,196 --> 00:23:33,996 Speaker 1: to be as clear as day. Why isn't as clear 322 00:23:34,036 --> 00:23:36,596 Speaker 1: as day for other people? You know, I think it 323 00:23:36,716 --> 00:23:38,956 Speaker 1: is clear as day to many people. But I think 324 00:23:38,996 --> 00:23:41,956 Speaker 1: a lot of people just don't want to engage that 325 00:23:42,756 --> 00:23:47,956 Speaker 1: because of racism, because of classism, because of all the 326 00:23:47,996 --> 00:23:51,836 Speaker 1: forces of oppression that make it so that some people 327 00:23:51,956 --> 00:23:56,196 Speaker 1: benefit from having the status quo and others don't. And 328 00:23:56,396 --> 00:24:00,476 Speaker 1: to me, if you're doing pretty well in your community, 329 00:24:01,076 --> 00:24:03,196 Speaker 1: you don't care how much is being spent on the costs. 330 00:24:03,276 --> 00:24:06,596 Speaker 1: You got what you need. Yeah, your kids going to college, 331 00:24:07,396 --> 00:24:09,876 Speaker 1: You've got healthcare when you need it. You are in 332 00:24:09,916 --> 00:24:13,356 Speaker 1: a position of not wanting to lock the boat to 333 00:24:13,396 --> 00:24:17,276 Speaker 1: the point where you might actually lose in your mind. 334 00:24:17,636 --> 00:24:21,356 Speaker 1: Some status is that you feel like you actually need 335 00:24:21,436 --> 00:24:23,476 Speaker 1: to be able to live the life you want to leave. 336 00:24:23,916 --> 00:24:26,836 Speaker 1: And I think we can't get away from the fact 337 00:24:26,876 --> 00:24:31,116 Speaker 1: that some people are actually benefiting from the current status quo, 338 00:24:31,916 --> 00:24:35,836 Speaker 1: and those people it's in their interests to continue to 339 00:24:35,876 --> 00:24:41,516 Speaker 1: paint the rest of us as naive, radical, homicide loving 340 00:24:41,836 --> 00:24:45,996 Speaker 1: people because they are comfortable in this current circumstance. They 341 00:24:46,036 --> 00:24:50,036 Speaker 1: don't get the vagaries and the tragedies. They don't experience 342 00:24:50,076 --> 00:24:52,956 Speaker 1: it in the ways that other people do, and so 343 00:24:53,036 --> 00:24:55,916 Speaker 1: it becomes easier to deal with that. I love this 344 00:24:56,036 --> 00:24:59,556 Speaker 1: quote by Bill Ayers, which I use all the time. Policing, 345 00:24:59,596 --> 00:25:04,036 Speaker 1: surveillance in prison are the last entitlements, while every social 346 00:25:04,076 --> 00:25:07,396 Speaker 1: need and priority is hollowed out or eliminated, and the 347 00:25:07,476 --> 00:25:11,356 Speaker 1: occupying police forces are brought in to manage the predictable crisis. 348 00:25:12,036 --> 00:25:17,156 Speaker 1: So you defund everything else, you leave everybody in destruction alley. 349 00:25:17,476 --> 00:25:19,796 Speaker 1: Those folks are desperate, They're not going to just go 350 00:25:19,876 --> 00:25:21,956 Speaker 1: down without a fight. They're going to try to survive 351 00:25:22,196 --> 00:25:25,516 Speaker 1: by any means necessary, and then you use the police 352 00:25:25,516 --> 00:25:30,596 Speaker 1: force to quell those people's rebellions. Because we all know 353 00:25:30,956 --> 00:25:34,076 Speaker 1: by not giving people what they need, we are actually 354 00:25:34,196 --> 00:25:37,996 Speaker 1: encouraging the crisis exactly we know it, and so I 355 00:25:38,036 --> 00:25:40,596 Speaker 1: think part of our work is to constantly bring this 356 00:25:40,716 --> 00:25:44,796 Speaker 1: up to people. It's to constantly challenge the status quo. 357 00:25:45,196 --> 00:25:49,956 Speaker 1: It's to constantly ask better questions. You write that the 358 00:25:49,996 --> 00:25:54,756 Speaker 1: criminal punishment system focuses on individuals who've done harm, while 359 00:25:54,796 --> 00:26:00,236 Speaker 1: abolitionists consider the larger social, economic, and political context in 360 00:26:00,276 --> 00:26:04,796 Speaker 1: which the harm occurs, and part of the reason for 361 00:26:04,836 --> 00:26:08,316 Speaker 1: that is because you just don't want to focus on 362 00:26:08,356 --> 00:26:11,436 Speaker 1: that single person who was harmed. You want to eliminate 363 00:26:11,476 --> 00:26:14,716 Speaker 1: the harm itself, and you don't believe in the concept 364 00:26:14,756 --> 00:26:18,316 Speaker 1: that this person is inherently bad, so there must be 365 00:26:18,396 --> 00:26:23,076 Speaker 1: conditions that must be changed. The beauty and gift that 366 00:26:23,236 --> 00:26:27,716 Speaker 1: p I c Abolition as a vision and ideology and 367 00:26:27,796 --> 00:26:31,836 Speaker 1: a practical organizing strategy gave me was to move me 368 00:26:31,996 --> 00:26:35,996 Speaker 1: out of the quote personal responsibility narrative that I had 369 00:26:36,036 --> 00:26:40,316 Speaker 1: grown up around, that I had imbibed as someone who 370 00:26:40,636 --> 00:26:43,756 Speaker 1: lived in a world that was filled with a bunch 371 00:26:43,756 --> 00:26:47,556 Speaker 1: of liberals, where everything was about individual rights and individuals 372 00:26:47,556 --> 00:26:51,196 Speaker 1: and people and choices. But I was living in New 373 00:26:51,276 --> 00:26:54,916 Speaker 1: York City growing up in the seventies and eighties, seeing 374 00:26:55,316 --> 00:26:58,996 Speaker 1: the actual destruction that was being wrought by policies that 375 00:26:59,036 --> 00:27:02,476 Speaker 1: my friends had no role in creating. But they were 376 00:27:02,476 --> 00:27:05,956 Speaker 1: getting swept up into rikers, they were dying of aids. 377 00:27:06,636 --> 00:27:08,996 Speaker 1: There was all this stuff going on that had no 378 00:27:09,236 --> 00:27:13,156 Speaker 1: thing to do with their personal responsibility, but had everything 379 00:27:13,196 --> 00:27:16,076 Speaker 1: to do with the fact that policies could have actually 380 00:27:16,116 --> 00:27:19,836 Speaker 1: made a difference in their lives kept them alive. Given 381 00:27:19,876 --> 00:27:23,156 Speaker 1: them what they needed to survive. And if this pandemic 382 00:27:23,196 --> 00:27:25,636 Speaker 1: we've all gone through has not made that crystal clear 383 00:27:25,716 --> 00:27:28,356 Speaker 1: to you as a human being in this country, that 384 00:27:28,476 --> 00:27:32,116 Speaker 1: policy has a huge impact on whether or not you 385 00:27:32,156 --> 00:27:35,596 Speaker 1: can thrive and survive, then I don't know what it's 386 00:27:35,636 --> 00:27:38,556 Speaker 1: going to take to shift your consciousness. The fact that 387 00:27:38,596 --> 00:27:41,916 Speaker 1: the government opened up the coffers and just throw money 388 00:27:42,116 --> 00:27:45,036 Speaker 1: at a bunch of businesses, that it just said, okay, 389 00:27:45,116 --> 00:27:48,036 Speaker 1: we're going to make the vaccine free, that it could 390 00:27:48,276 --> 00:27:51,516 Speaker 1: add money to your unemployment so that you could actually 391 00:27:51,516 --> 00:27:53,876 Speaker 1: make a living wage. The fact that all of that 392 00:27:53,916 --> 00:27:56,836 Speaker 1: could be done on a dime, like the spicket could 393 00:27:56,836 --> 00:27:59,956 Speaker 1: be opened that way. Should that not tell you something 394 00:27:59,956 --> 00:28:02,796 Speaker 1: about the difference between focusing on the individual for everything 395 00:28:03,316 --> 00:28:06,156 Speaker 1: and making a systemic choice to support people with the 396 00:28:06,196 --> 00:28:09,036 Speaker 1: resources they need to be able to live. It made another, 397 00:28:09,116 --> 00:28:11,876 Speaker 1: which is case for us in some ways right it 398 00:28:11,916 --> 00:28:15,156 Speaker 1: was curtailed. There were contestations. One of the reasons the 399 00:28:15,476 --> 00:28:18,356 Speaker 1: right wing was so freaked out and wanting to throw 400 00:28:18,476 --> 00:28:21,396 Speaker 1: aside the masks and force everybody back to work is 401 00:28:21,436 --> 00:28:23,876 Speaker 1: because they know what I just told you is true. 402 00:28:24,396 --> 00:28:31,236 Speaker 1: Exactly when the right started pushing for the right and 403 00:28:31,316 --> 00:28:35,476 Speaker 1: the freedom to open back up. I ended up writing 404 00:28:35,516 --> 00:28:39,116 Speaker 1: this piece in The Atlantic that basically argued that we're 405 00:28:39,156 --> 00:28:43,236 Speaker 1: still in a slaveholder's republic. And what I argued was 406 00:28:43,276 --> 00:28:49,356 Speaker 1: that the slaveholder, the individual, wanted the freedom to enslave. 407 00:28:50,196 --> 00:28:53,596 Speaker 1: There's no difference between that and the individual saying I 408 00:28:53,596 --> 00:28:56,596 Speaker 1: should have the freedom to infect people, I should have 409 00:28:56,676 --> 00:28:59,716 Speaker 1: the freedom to kill and exploit and harass and terrorize 410 00:29:00,236 --> 00:29:04,996 Speaker 1: and enslave people had a different philosophy Instead of the 411 00:29:05,076 --> 00:29:08,036 Speaker 1: individual too, it was the community from So how do 412 00:29:08,156 --> 00:29:12,956 Speaker 1: we as a community gained freedom from slavery, from oppression, or, 413 00:29:12,996 --> 00:29:16,956 Speaker 1: in the case of the coronavirus, from infection. I think 414 00:29:16,996 --> 00:29:22,676 Speaker 1: we have to stop claiming innocence and ignorance about things 415 00:29:22,716 --> 00:29:25,636 Speaker 1: we deeply within ourselves know. Why do we want to 416 00:29:25,716 --> 00:29:30,596 Speaker 1: send people who we despise to jail? You don't send 417 00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:35,836 Speaker 1: people that you like to places that are horrors and 418 00:29:35,956 --> 00:29:38,836 Speaker 1: torture chambers. One thing I do want to point out 419 00:29:38,996 --> 00:29:44,036 Speaker 1: about the analogy of enslavement. Enslaved people were abolitionists. They'd 420 00:29:44,076 --> 00:29:48,956 Speaker 1: already figured out that it was immoral, unjust, and wrong 421 00:29:49,236 --> 00:29:52,076 Speaker 1: to keep other people in bondage. How did they know 422 00:29:52,196 --> 00:29:55,276 Speaker 1: that they didn't have schooling. You'd think George Washington, with 423 00:29:55,356 --> 00:29:59,436 Speaker 1: all his erdiction, did not know that enslavement was wrong. 424 00:29:59,796 --> 00:30:01,796 Speaker 1: Of course, he knew it was wrong, because he wouldn't 425 00:30:01,796 --> 00:30:05,036 Speaker 1: trade places with own a judge his slave. That means 426 00:30:05,036 --> 00:30:07,796 Speaker 1: he knew what she was dealing with in terms of 427 00:30:08,116 --> 00:30:12,556 Speaker 1: her capture, enclosure, violence, all of that stuff. They knew. 428 00:30:13,036 --> 00:30:16,156 Speaker 1: And the same thing is true today. We know what 429 00:30:16,276 --> 00:30:19,556 Speaker 1: the PC is doing to people. Stop pretending you don't 430 00:30:19,676 --> 00:30:22,836 Speaker 1: know about the violence of policing and the violence of prisons. 431 00:30:23,116 --> 00:30:26,556 Speaker 1: You know that basically, when we send people to prison, 432 00:30:26,596 --> 00:30:30,476 Speaker 1: we're sentencing them to judicial rate. You're aware of that 433 00:30:30,756 --> 00:30:33,316 Speaker 1: enough at twelve years old to make jokes about people 434 00:30:33,356 --> 00:30:38,036 Speaker 1: getting locked up and getting raped. People know. People know, 435 00:30:38,356 --> 00:30:43,236 Speaker 1: and we can't pretend constantly to be surprised and to 436 00:30:43,316 --> 00:30:47,156 Speaker 1: say reform is the answer when you know it hasn't 437 00:30:47,316 --> 00:30:52,196 Speaker 1: done that. One of the most difficult aspects to me 438 00:30:52,396 --> 00:30:56,996 Speaker 1: of thinking as an abolitionist, in acting and pushing and 439 00:30:57,116 --> 00:31:03,836 Speaker 1: challenging is one is overcoming the punishment mindset. Oh, overcoming 440 00:31:03,996 --> 00:31:07,236 Speaker 1: this mindset when somebody harms you or harms someone you 441 00:31:07,276 --> 00:31:12,156 Speaker 1: love us. Yeah, some people just want revenge, and that's 442 00:31:12,236 --> 00:31:15,636 Speaker 1: why they do send people to prisons knowing it's horrible, 443 00:31:15,716 --> 00:31:20,916 Speaker 1: and so how do we overcome this punishment mindset which 444 00:31:20,916 --> 00:31:22,956 Speaker 1: you write about is in many ways at the core 445 00:31:23,076 --> 00:31:28,836 Speaker 1: of the criminal punishment system. Obviously, absolutely, I don't know 446 00:31:29,116 --> 00:31:32,756 Speaker 1: is the answer. It's the honest answer, and it has 447 00:31:32,796 --> 00:31:36,556 Speaker 1: been the work of a lifetime for me to try 448 00:31:36,556 --> 00:31:40,596 Speaker 1: to figure out how to do that with people, including myself. 449 00:31:41,596 --> 00:31:43,356 Speaker 1: One of the things about punishment that I think we 450 00:31:43,436 --> 00:31:47,236 Speaker 1: have a hard time talking about publicly is that punishment 451 00:31:47,316 --> 00:31:51,756 Speaker 1: is seductive because it actually gives some kind of pleasure 452 00:31:51,796 --> 00:31:56,116 Speaker 1: to the person enacting the punishing. It also gives a 453 00:31:56,156 --> 00:32:00,276 Speaker 1: sense of satisfaction because you did something back to the 454 00:32:00,316 --> 00:32:04,276 Speaker 1: people who hurt you. That's real. That's a real, visceral 455 00:32:04,716 --> 00:32:08,076 Speaker 1: feeling that we get, and that's really hard to give up. 456 00:32:08,476 --> 00:32:11,716 Speaker 1: The other thing about punishment is that it's easy. Punishment 457 00:32:12,356 --> 00:32:15,396 Speaker 1: is something that you enact and the person that you're 458 00:32:15,436 --> 00:32:19,236 Speaker 1: punishing doesn't have to do anything. They're just passive. They're 459 00:32:19,276 --> 00:32:23,876 Speaker 1: receiving whatever your punishment is. Accountability is something totally different, 460 00:32:24,236 --> 00:32:27,396 Speaker 1: because you can't actually hold anybody accountable. You can only 461 00:32:27,716 --> 00:32:31,516 Speaker 1: hold space for people to take accountability. It's an active thing. 462 00:32:31,836 --> 00:32:34,636 Speaker 1: So it's much harder than punishment because it means that 463 00:32:34,676 --> 00:32:37,156 Speaker 1: people have to figure out deciding that what they did 464 00:32:37,236 --> 00:32:40,116 Speaker 1: was wrong, deciding that they want to make it right, 465 00:32:40,476 --> 00:32:44,676 Speaker 1: and then acting on that. That's freaking hard. Punishment it's 466 00:32:44,716 --> 00:32:47,596 Speaker 1: so easy, right, you don't have to do any of that, 467 00:32:48,196 --> 00:32:50,276 Speaker 1: So how do you compete with that? Are you trying 468 00:32:50,276 --> 00:32:56,276 Speaker 1: to say, we'll all loki sociopaths and we want I don't, No, 469 00:32:56,556 --> 00:33:00,636 Speaker 1: I'm discussing if I think it's societally legitimated. Yeah, right, Like, 470 00:33:00,756 --> 00:33:02,876 Speaker 1: this is how we're supposed to handle things. This is 471 00:33:02,916 --> 00:33:07,276 Speaker 1: how the world is. It's naturalized. I've been trying to 472 00:33:08,516 --> 00:33:12,076 Speaker 1: work it through and think it through now for you know, 473 00:33:12,316 --> 00:33:17,636 Speaker 1: twenty years, and I still am constantly struggling and struggling 474 00:33:17,636 --> 00:33:22,556 Speaker 1: within my own self. When harm occurs to people I 475 00:33:22,636 --> 00:33:26,516 Speaker 1: love or myself, I have to consciously stop myself and 476 00:33:26,556 --> 00:33:30,316 Speaker 1: be like, Okay, Mariam, it's okay to feel your feelings 477 00:33:30,396 --> 00:33:34,196 Speaker 1: and you don't get to act on them. It seems 478 00:33:34,236 --> 00:33:38,316 Speaker 1: to me, when we're harmed, another feeling we have is 479 00:33:38,356 --> 00:33:42,396 Speaker 1: we want that person to acknowledge that they harmed us, 480 00:33:42,436 --> 00:33:47,036 Speaker 1: and we want that person to not harm anyone else again. 481 00:33:47,676 --> 00:33:53,116 Speaker 1: It also seems this criminal punishment system has failed completely 482 00:33:53,716 --> 00:33:58,076 Speaker 1: in getting people to acknowledge its systematically is not set 483 00:33:58,116 --> 00:34:03,076 Speaker 1: up to do that. But transformative justice, what you've advocated for, 484 00:34:03,236 --> 00:34:09,236 Speaker 1: is a replacement community process which prioritizes hearing repair or 485 00:34:09,236 --> 00:34:15,196 Speaker 1: an accountability, is indeed set up to do that. Yeah, 486 00:34:15,236 --> 00:34:19,756 Speaker 1: I love to think with people about transformative justice. I 487 00:34:19,876 --> 00:34:23,876 Speaker 1: want to say really importantly and clearly to folks that 488 00:34:23,956 --> 00:34:29,276 Speaker 1: I don't see transformative justice as the alternative to prisons, policing, 489 00:34:29,276 --> 00:34:32,556 Speaker 1: and surveillance, because I don't think we can have one 490 00:34:32,876 --> 00:34:38,236 Speaker 1: alternative to policing, prisons, and surveillance. These institutions exist in 491 00:34:38,276 --> 00:34:41,396 Speaker 1: this monolithic way, and there are so many different kinds 492 00:34:41,436 --> 00:34:43,596 Speaker 1: of harms, and that's part of why we are in 493 00:34:43,596 --> 00:34:47,156 Speaker 1: the mess we're end today. But a lot of abolitionists 494 00:34:47,436 --> 00:34:51,756 Speaker 1: have other ideas about the frameworks and politics that they 495 00:34:51,796 --> 00:34:56,596 Speaker 1: embrace in their work. Abolitionists have different politics. All the 496 00:34:56,636 --> 00:35:00,196 Speaker 1: different kinds of political frameworks that people have for making 497 00:35:00,236 --> 00:35:03,876 Speaker 1: sense of the world exist within abolitionist thought and framing. 498 00:35:04,476 --> 00:35:08,476 Speaker 1: One way that I have tried over the years to 499 00:35:08,516 --> 00:35:11,756 Speaker 1: help people who have caused harm to try to figure 500 00:35:11,796 --> 00:35:14,076 Speaker 1: out a way to acknowledge that they did it, try 501 00:35:14,116 --> 00:35:16,116 Speaker 1: to figure out a way to repair harm to the 502 00:35:16,156 --> 00:35:18,276 Speaker 1: extent that it can be repaired. It's never going to 503 00:35:18,276 --> 00:35:22,356 Speaker 1: be erased, and then to figure out ways to try 504 00:35:22,556 --> 00:35:26,516 Speaker 1: not to do it again. But we're all human people 505 00:35:26,556 --> 00:35:29,476 Speaker 1: are always going to fall back. We have to give 506 00:35:29,516 --> 00:35:33,276 Speaker 1: ourselves some grace and give each other more grace around that, 507 00:35:33,556 --> 00:35:37,716 Speaker 1: and understand that that's not a failure, that's life and 508 00:35:37,756 --> 00:35:40,636 Speaker 1: we have to be okay with that. You had a 509 00:35:40,676 --> 00:35:45,796 Speaker 1: piece that really laid out the quote reforms people should 510 00:35:46,036 --> 00:35:48,996 Speaker 1: oppose and support, while also stating that you don't know 511 00:35:49,076 --> 00:35:52,156 Speaker 1: anybody who's an abolitionist who does it support some reforms, 512 00:35:52,796 --> 00:35:55,236 Speaker 1: It depends on the type of reform. I want to 513 00:35:55,276 --> 00:35:57,636 Speaker 1: just quickly go through some of these to give people 514 00:35:57,636 --> 00:36:01,156 Speaker 1: a very concrete way of understanding what they could be 515 00:36:01,196 --> 00:36:04,836 Speaker 1: opposing and what they could be supporting. Specifically about policing, 516 00:36:05,476 --> 00:36:09,596 Speaker 1: and so you asked the question, is the reform allocating 517 00:36:09,636 --> 00:36:12,956 Speaker 1: more money to the police. Is the reform advocating for 518 00:36:13,076 --> 00:36:17,276 Speaker 1: more police? Is the reform technology focused or is the 519 00:36:17,316 --> 00:36:21,396 Speaker 1: reform about individual dialogues with individual cops? And you say, 520 00:36:21,436 --> 00:36:24,276 Speaker 1: if it is, then you should oppose it. Yeah. Why, 521 00:36:24,876 --> 00:36:28,556 Speaker 1: our job is to think about whether we are trying 522 00:36:28,556 --> 00:36:33,516 Speaker 1: to enhance freedom or enhance policing, and these questions help 523 00:36:33,756 --> 00:36:37,396 Speaker 1: us to figure out whether we're in the right track. 524 00:36:37,796 --> 00:36:41,636 Speaker 1: If you're giving more money to police and policing, it 525 00:36:41,716 --> 00:36:45,276 Speaker 1: means that you're actually increasing the legitimacy of the institution 526 00:36:45,996 --> 00:36:49,036 Speaker 1: and that you're helping the institution continue to exist and grow. 527 00:36:49,636 --> 00:36:52,036 Speaker 1: You definitely would not want to be doing that as 528 00:36:52,036 --> 00:36:56,356 Speaker 1: an abolitionist. We're trying to shrink the power of the institution. 529 00:36:56,676 --> 00:36:59,916 Speaker 1: The question that we have about engaging in one on 530 00:36:59,916 --> 00:37:03,476 Speaker 1: one dialogue with cops well goes back to my point 531 00:37:04,116 --> 00:37:07,956 Speaker 1: about your uncle Johnny not being the problem. Do you 532 00:37:07,996 --> 00:37:10,636 Speaker 1: know what I mean. We are not trying to make 533 00:37:10,676 --> 00:37:13,356 Speaker 1: it so that the cops will be nicer to young 534 00:37:13,436 --> 00:37:16,956 Speaker 1: black men. We want the power of policing diminished so 535 00:37:16,996 --> 00:37:21,196 Speaker 1: that that power doesn't crush those young people. Many years ago, 536 00:37:21,476 --> 00:37:24,396 Speaker 1: I was taught a lesson by a young person who 537 00:37:24,436 --> 00:37:27,836 Speaker 1: I was working with. He was navigating a case. He 538 00:37:27,996 --> 00:37:31,196 Speaker 1: was a young sixteen year old, and I started talking 539 00:37:31,236 --> 00:37:34,636 Speaker 1: with him about this idea that our organization was going 540 00:37:34,676 --> 00:37:39,276 Speaker 1: to facilitate these talking circles between cops in the community 541 00:37:39,316 --> 00:37:41,676 Speaker 1: and the young people in the community because we wanted 542 00:37:41,716 --> 00:37:44,596 Speaker 1: to preempt what always happened in the summer, which was 543 00:37:44,636 --> 00:37:47,516 Speaker 1: our young people being highly harassed, told to get off 544 00:37:47,556 --> 00:37:51,916 Speaker 1: the street, corners arrested for no reason. So in our 545 00:37:51,956 --> 00:37:54,236 Speaker 1: mind at the time, it was like, well, if the 546 00:37:54,276 --> 00:37:56,876 Speaker 1: cops knew these kids in a different kind of way, 547 00:37:57,196 --> 00:38:00,196 Speaker 1: then perhaps they would have a different sense of empathy 548 00:38:00,316 --> 00:38:03,156 Speaker 1: and be able to work different And this young man 549 00:38:03,236 --> 00:38:07,836 Speaker 1: said to me, Miss Kaba, the problem isn't that these 550 00:38:07,916 --> 00:38:11,116 Speaker 1: cops don't know us, or that we don't know them. 551 00:38:11,636 --> 00:38:15,276 Speaker 1: The problem is they know us too well and have 552 00:38:15,436 --> 00:38:19,356 Speaker 1: all the power to crush us. And I was like, 553 00:38:19,436 --> 00:38:22,636 Speaker 1: what was I thinking? This is me talking about this 554 00:38:22,676 --> 00:38:26,316 Speaker 1: young person sitting in a circle with Officer Johnny and 555 00:38:26,436 --> 00:38:28,716 Speaker 1: thinking that that was going to make a real difference 556 00:38:28,756 --> 00:38:30,956 Speaker 1: in getting targeted on a daily basis by this cop. 557 00:38:31,396 --> 00:38:34,476 Speaker 1: The cop in fact, does know his name, has arrested 558 00:38:34,556 --> 00:38:38,756 Speaker 1: him many times, harassed him, beating his door down. This 559 00:38:38,916 --> 00:38:41,436 Speaker 1: it already happened, and the cops still had all the 560 00:38:41,476 --> 00:38:44,436 Speaker 1: power to do that after that conversation. So that's an 561 00:38:44,436 --> 00:38:47,556 Speaker 1: example of why that wouldn't be a reform you should 562 00:38:47,596 --> 00:38:51,196 Speaker 1: be supporting in any logical way. The technology is like 563 00:38:51,516 --> 00:38:55,836 Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen, I and others kept screaming body cameras 564 00:38:55,836 --> 00:38:58,396 Speaker 1: are not the answer to this. Giving more and more 565 00:38:58,436 --> 00:39:00,676 Speaker 1: technologies to the cops so that now we can see 566 00:39:00,716 --> 00:39:04,836 Speaker 1: them killing people is not going to fundamentally shift the 567 00:39:05,116 --> 00:39:09,796 Speaker 1: power that police have to kill people truly, of dollars 568 00:39:09,956 --> 00:39:14,636 Speaker 1: more being put into that institution, legitimizing it further, and 569 00:39:14,676 --> 00:39:16,796 Speaker 1: still being in a position where people are still dying 570 00:39:16,796 --> 00:39:19,876 Speaker 1: at a thousand people a year for the last two decades. 571 00:39:20,956 --> 00:39:23,876 Speaker 1: In the interim, on our way to creating a different 572 00:39:23,876 --> 00:39:27,836 Speaker 1: type of society, you say, the reforms we should support. 573 00:39:27,916 --> 00:39:32,316 Speaker 1: Our proposals and laws that offer reparations to victims of 574 00:39:32,396 --> 00:39:36,756 Speaker 1: police violence and their families, Proposals and laws that decrease 575 00:39:37,356 --> 00:39:40,836 Speaker 1: and redirect policing in prison funds to other social goods. 576 00:39:40,876 --> 00:39:45,796 Speaker 1: We talked about education, healthcare, and laws and proposals for 577 00:39:45,956 --> 00:39:51,076 Speaker 1: elected independent civilian police accountability boards with the power which 578 00:39:51,116 --> 00:39:55,756 Speaker 1: is a keyword to investigate, discipline, fire police officers and 579 00:39:55,796 --> 00:40:00,676 Speaker 1: administrators with some caveats, proposals and laws to disarm the police, 580 00:40:00,916 --> 00:40:05,156 Speaker 1: to simplify the process of dissolving existing police departments, like 581 00:40:05,236 --> 00:40:08,476 Speaker 1: what I understands happening in Ithaca, New York. Laws for 582 00:40:08,596 --> 00:40:11,436 Speaker 1: data trains insparency, so we know the data on who's 583 00:40:11,476 --> 00:40:15,276 Speaker 1: being stopped, who's being arrested, the budgets, the weaponry that 584 00:40:15,396 --> 00:40:19,156 Speaker 1: police officers have. So your thoughts on those things that 585 00:40:19,196 --> 00:40:22,996 Speaker 1: people should consider supporting in their local communities. Yeah, I 586 00:40:23,076 --> 00:40:26,396 Speaker 1: believe that people have to have things to do. I 587 00:40:26,476 --> 00:40:29,756 Speaker 1: don't believe that we can just tell people everything's terrible, 588 00:40:29,836 --> 00:40:33,676 Speaker 1: everything's bad, and then not offer ways that people can 589 00:40:33,716 --> 00:40:37,436 Speaker 1: be involved in transforming their conditions so that things change. 590 00:40:37,716 --> 00:40:40,516 Speaker 1: So it's a good thing to know which cops in 591 00:40:40,556 --> 00:40:44,596 Speaker 1: particular communities have had nineteen complaints against them, because the 592 00:40:44,676 --> 00:40:47,516 Speaker 1: next time there's some complaint and people are like, oh, look, 593 00:40:47,916 --> 00:40:52,396 Speaker 1: officer Johnny has nineteen million complaints against them. Not shocking 594 00:40:52,436 --> 00:40:54,356 Speaker 1: that they would end up shooting and killing all these 595 00:40:54,356 --> 00:40:57,036 Speaker 1: other people, right, But before it gets to that point, 596 00:40:57,236 --> 00:41:00,116 Speaker 1: what are the mechanisms to get rid of officer Johnny 597 00:41:00,156 --> 00:41:04,356 Speaker 1: with nineteen million complaints? You can use data to support 598 00:41:04,796 --> 00:41:07,796 Speaker 1: changing certain things that will make a material difference in 599 00:41:07,796 --> 00:41:11,116 Speaker 1: people's lives and perhaps say lives. So these are the 600 00:41:11,196 --> 00:41:13,076 Speaker 1: kind of things that I think people can be pushing 601 00:41:13,156 --> 00:41:16,476 Speaker 1: in a policy way in their local communities. After all, 602 00:41:16,516 --> 00:41:19,156 Speaker 1: the criminal punishment system really operates at the state and 603 00:41:19,316 --> 00:41:22,796 Speaker 1: municipal levels. Federal stuff is there, but it's not the 604 00:41:22,876 --> 00:41:26,996 Speaker 1: main driver of what is going on. I know that 605 00:41:27,676 --> 00:41:33,756 Speaker 1: despite the scale of American policing and surveillance and prisons, 606 00:41:34,396 --> 00:41:37,956 Speaker 1: despite the number of people who whenever they see a 607 00:41:37,996 --> 00:41:42,996 Speaker 1: black face, they see danger, despite how much we've defunded 608 00:41:43,036 --> 00:41:48,636 Speaker 1: schools and social service nets, despite three people per day 609 00:41:48,796 --> 00:41:53,276 Speaker 1: who are dying from the police. You talk about hope 610 00:41:53,396 --> 00:41:57,116 Speaker 1: as a discipline that we have to practice every single day. 611 00:41:57,316 --> 00:42:01,036 Speaker 1: Can you speak to what you mean by a discipline? Yeah. 612 00:42:01,076 --> 00:42:05,236 Speaker 1: For me, the discipline of hope is choosing on a 613 00:42:05,356 --> 00:42:08,876 Speaker 1: daily basis to look at the situations that are in 614 00:42:09,116 --> 00:42:12,956 Speaker 1: one of us, confront them realistically, not in a pretend 615 00:42:13,076 --> 00:42:17,756 Speaker 1: kind of way, and still say yes, I'm still going 616 00:42:17,796 --> 00:42:20,716 Speaker 1: to choose to struggle. But I also want to say 617 00:42:20,756 --> 00:42:23,436 Speaker 1: something that I hope people really think about as well. 618 00:42:23,996 --> 00:42:29,196 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Alexander said years ago. Bad things proliferate in different ways, 619 00:42:29,556 --> 00:42:33,716 Speaker 1: but that's not all the news. Every single day, I'm 620 00:42:33,756 --> 00:42:39,116 Speaker 1: amazed at what people do for each other and with 621 00:42:39,196 --> 00:42:45,236 Speaker 1: each other despite the most difficult, horrific circumstances. Back to 622 00:42:45,356 --> 00:42:51,516 Speaker 1: our pandemic life. What we saw was horrible, rapacious greed 623 00:42:52,276 --> 00:42:58,316 Speaker 1: alongside beautiful mutual aid projects that people created on the 624 00:42:58,356 --> 00:43:02,356 Speaker 1: fly to save each other's lives. And I can choose 625 00:43:02,516 --> 00:43:07,116 Speaker 1: to look at the depressing, greedy vultures, or I could 626 00:43:07,196 --> 00:43:11,076 Speaker 1: choose to focus on the mutual aid of ordinary, regular 627 00:43:11,156 --> 00:43:13,876 Speaker 1: people who kept each other alive to the extent that 628 00:43:13,916 --> 00:43:19,836 Speaker 1: they could under such repressive and difficult circumstances. And I 629 00:43:19,916 --> 00:43:22,916 Speaker 1: choose to look at that other side. I choose to 630 00:43:22,956 --> 00:43:26,036 Speaker 1: put my energy and my hope as a discipline in 631 00:43:26,556 --> 00:43:30,436 Speaker 1: all the other people who are doing all these incredible 632 00:43:30,436 --> 00:43:34,836 Speaker 1: things to sustain life. That's where that comes from me. 633 00:43:34,996 --> 00:43:38,236 Speaker 1: And I'm lucky because I've had such great teachers in 634 00:43:38,556 --> 00:43:45,716 Speaker 1: life who make me understand that struggle is critical to living. 635 00:43:46,316 --> 00:43:51,076 Speaker 1: Struggle as a way to work with others to make 636 00:43:51,156 --> 00:43:56,236 Speaker 1: more joy and to make life worth living. That's how 637 00:43:56,276 --> 00:43:59,196 Speaker 1: I see that, and I could not be more grounded 638 00:43:59,236 --> 00:44:02,916 Speaker 1: in reality. And that's why I'm committed to struggle, and 639 00:44:02,956 --> 00:44:06,116 Speaker 1: that's why I'm committed to hoping as a discipline. Well, 640 00:44:06,276 --> 00:44:11,436 Speaker 1: I share the same perspective of Indeed, I decided very 641 00:44:11,436 --> 00:44:15,676 Speaker 1: consciously to move to Boston because I wanted to walk 642 00:44:15,916 --> 00:44:18,996 Speaker 1: the same streets of people like Mariah Stewart and David 643 00:44:19,036 --> 00:44:24,396 Speaker 1: Walker who imagined that we could build a nation without 644 00:44:24,436 --> 00:44:28,356 Speaker 1: the terror of chattel slavery, and people thought they were crazy. 645 00:44:29,036 --> 00:44:32,036 Speaker 1: People thought they were out of their mind. Yeah, but 646 00:44:32,116 --> 00:44:35,236 Speaker 1: they were like, no, I'm not crazy. Slavery is crazy. 647 00:44:35,276 --> 00:44:40,396 Speaker 1: I'm you know, we're not crazy exactly like we know, 648 00:44:40,836 --> 00:44:44,556 Speaker 1: we exactly experienced this, we know what is going on here. 649 00:44:44,756 --> 00:44:46,836 Speaker 1: And I love the fact that you said that you 650 00:44:47,196 --> 00:44:51,636 Speaker 1: wanted to go to walk in the spaces where they walked, 651 00:44:51,756 --> 00:44:55,796 Speaker 1: because I think there's something about embodiment here that people 652 00:44:55,876 --> 00:44:59,596 Speaker 1: really don't pay that much attention to walking the streets 653 00:44:59,676 --> 00:45:03,476 Speaker 1: that people who came before us walked, and that they 654 00:45:03,556 --> 00:45:07,796 Speaker 1: were there understanding without any evidence at all that things 655 00:45:07,796 --> 00:45:10,996 Speaker 1: were going to be different. In fact, all evidence in 656 00:45:11,036 --> 00:45:13,796 Speaker 1: front of them pointed to the fact that these systems 657 00:45:13,836 --> 00:45:19,556 Speaker 1: were entrenched, intractable, and probably inevitable. Yes, and yet in 658 00:45:19,596 --> 00:45:22,716 Speaker 1: the midst of that, they were like, Nope, not happening. 659 00:45:22,756 --> 00:45:25,276 Speaker 1: In the midst of it, I see fragments of different 660 00:45:25,356 --> 00:45:29,516 Speaker 1: possibilities today, and I believe that people I don't know 661 00:45:29,876 --> 00:45:33,756 Speaker 1: my grandchildren's grandchildren's life is going to be different than mine. 662 00:45:34,156 --> 00:45:36,796 Speaker 1: I'm going to fight for it, and I'm going to 663 00:45:36,876 --> 00:45:42,636 Speaker 1: refuse to take people's supposed realistic solutions as the only 664 00:45:42,676 --> 00:45:45,836 Speaker 1: way to be able to make that happen. I love it. 665 00:45:46,636 --> 00:45:50,716 Speaker 1: Mariam Kabba. Thank you for your commitment to struggle, your 666 00:45:50,796 --> 00:45:54,876 Speaker 1: discipline to hope. It was a pleasure to be able 667 00:45:54,876 --> 00:45:57,396 Speaker 1: to sit down and talk with you and learn from you. 668 00:45:57,516 --> 00:45:59,636 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your work, Thank you for 669 00:45:59,676 --> 00:46:02,156 Speaker 1: having me, and thank you for your work. Of course, 670 00:46:09,836 --> 00:46:14,476 Speaker 1: Miriam Kabba's term the criminal punishment system has really stuck 671 00:46:14,516 --> 00:46:18,316 Speaker 1: with me. It highlights just how much punishment is at 672 00:46:18,316 --> 00:46:21,956 Speaker 1: the center of the quote unquote criminal justice system, and 673 00:46:22,036 --> 00:46:26,956 Speaker 1: as Kaba said, punishment is the easy but harmful response 674 00:46:27,196 --> 00:46:32,796 Speaker 1: to violence. There's disinformation circulating that to be anti racist 675 00:46:32,996 --> 00:46:36,956 Speaker 1: is to ignore crime, or what Kaba aptly terms harm, 676 00:46:37,716 --> 00:46:42,116 Speaker 1: that those anti racist abolitionists calling for alternatives to prisons 677 00:46:42,156 --> 00:46:46,636 Speaker 1: and police somehow don't care about the rising homicide rates. 678 00:46:47,796 --> 00:46:50,716 Speaker 1: Nothing could be further from the truth. We are not 679 00:46:50,916 --> 00:46:55,036 Speaker 1: ignoring crime, we just have a different perspective on the 680 00:46:55,116 --> 00:47:00,356 Speaker 1: origins of harm. Think about it this way, are not 681 00:47:00,396 --> 00:47:03,636 Speaker 1: the people searching for and striving to eliminate the roots 682 00:47:03,676 --> 00:47:07,196 Speaker 1: of harm and violence. The very people most committed to 683 00:47:07,276 --> 00:47:11,236 Speaker 1: safe communities are not the people ignoring the roots of 684 00:47:11,356 --> 00:47:15,396 Speaker 1: harm and violence, the very people allowing for its continuation. 685 00:47:16,396 --> 00:47:20,036 Speaker 1: Many people desire all these heavily armed police and prisons 686 00:47:20,076 --> 00:47:23,716 Speaker 1: to contain all these evil and bad people. But what 687 00:47:23,796 --> 00:47:27,236 Speaker 1: if there's no such thing as bad people? What if 688 00:47:27,236 --> 00:47:30,076 Speaker 1: there are people who do bad things? And what if 689 00:47:30,116 --> 00:47:33,556 Speaker 1: people are more likely to do bad things under durests 690 00:47:33,596 --> 00:47:38,596 Speaker 1: and in despair. What if we dramatically reduced societal durests 691 00:47:38,636 --> 00:47:42,996 Speaker 1: and despair by investing in communities and institutions. And what 692 00:47:43,116 --> 00:47:46,796 Speaker 1: if when people still caused harm and violence, we figured 693 00:47:46,836 --> 00:47:50,316 Speaker 1: out a way to respond that doesn't cause more violence 694 00:47:50,556 --> 00:47:55,116 Speaker 1: and harror to quote Kaba, to my mind, the people 695 00:47:55,156 --> 00:47:58,956 Speaker 1: working to address the root causes of violence are actually 696 00:47:59,356 --> 00:48:04,796 Speaker 1: the hardest on violence. Proponents of the criminal punishment system 697 00:48:05,156 --> 00:48:07,956 Speaker 1: are not hard on crime. They're hard on people they 698 00:48:07,996 --> 00:48:12,716 Speaker 1: deem criminals, and criminals in their mind are black. They're 699 00:48:12,756 --> 00:48:16,396 Speaker 1: hard on thirteen year olds like me in nineteen ninety five, 700 00:48:16,916 --> 00:48:20,916 Speaker 1: calling me a super predator when racism keeps praying on 701 00:48:21,076 --> 00:48:29,076 Speaker 1: my life and livelihood, but imagining anew with abolitionist organizers 702 00:48:29,156 --> 00:48:32,836 Speaker 1: like Miriam Kaba fills me with hope. Hope for a 703 00:48:32,916 --> 00:48:37,996 Speaker 1: future that's focused on dangerous conditions rather than dangerous people's. 704 00:48:38,716 --> 00:48:43,356 Speaker 1: Hope for a future prioritizing community investment and restorative justice 705 00:48:43,796 --> 00:48:47,916 Speaker 1: over punishment and condemnation. Hope for a future in which 706 00:48:47,956 --> 00:48:52,996 Speaker 1: crimes of desperation lead forcefully to accountability and a remedy. 707 00:48:53,836 --> 00:48:57,916 Speaker 1: Hope for a safe future. But to get there, we 708 00:48:58,036 --> 00:49:09,116 Speaker 1: must be anti racist. Were Anti Racist is a production 709 00:49:09,116 --> 00:49:11,956 Speaker 1: in the Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. It is written and 710 00:49:11,956 --> 00:49:15,076 Speaker 1: hosted by doctor Ebram x Kindy and produced by Alexandra Garratton, 711 00:49:15,196 --> 00:49:18,876 Speaker 1: but associate producer Britney Brown. Our engineer has been Talliday, 712 00:49:18,916 --> 00:49:22,156 Speaker 1: Our editors Julia Barton and our show runner Sasha Mathias. 713 00:49:22,796 --> 00:49:25,396 Speaker 1: Our executive producers all the time, Wilad and Me and Lobell. 714 00:49:25,956 --> 00:49:28,196 Speaker 1: Many thanks to Tammy Win and doctor Heather Sandford at 715 00:49:28,196 --> 00:49:30,876 Speaker 1: the Center for Anti Racist Research at Boston University for 716 00:49:30,996 --> 00:49:33,716 Speaker 1: all of the help at Pushkin. Thanks to Heather Fame, 717 00:49:33,996 --> 00:49:38,196 Speaker 1: Carly mcgliori, John Schnarz, and Jacob Wiseberg. You can find 718 00:49:38,196 --> 00:49:40,556 Speaker 1: doctor Kendy on Twitter at d r Ebrahm and on 719 00:49:40,596 --> 00:49:44,156 Speaker 1: Instagram at ebram XK. You can find Pushkin on all 720 00:49:44,156 --> 00:49:47,076 Speaker 1: social platforms at Pushkin pods, and you can sign up 721 00:49:47,076 --> 00:49:50,796 Speaker 1: our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. Find more Pushkin podcast 722 00:49:50,956 --> 00:49:53,716 Speaker 1: listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 723 00:49:53,716 --> 00:49:54,876 Speaker 1: wherever you like to listen