1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Alive and fourth in the South, the last place where 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: the couple was seen. 3 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 2: Alive, and Jeanette Perciona was a friend of Danielle's. The 4 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 2: weekend Danielle vanished, Jeanette was at home with the TV on. 5 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: They vanished after living a bar in the four hundred 6 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: block of South Street. 7 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 3: I was having a lazy Sunday, falling in and out 8 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 3: of sleep on the couch with ABC playing, and Danielle's 9 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 3: picture popped up and I just couldn't believe my eyes. 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 3: I dialed Danielle's cell phone and it went straight to voicemail, 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 3: so I immediately dialed the house phone and Felice answered. 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 2: Felice is Danielle's mother. 13 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 3: I said, Felice, it's Jeannette, and she said, oh, Jeannette, 14 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 3: she's coming home. 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 2: And I said, what do you mean? Where was she? 16 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 4: Like? 17 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 3: I thought they had found her. And her reply to 18 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 3: me was, I don't know where she is, Janette, but 19 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 3: I know she's coming home. And if you would have 20 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 3: heard the desperation in her voice at the time, it's 21 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 3: like her heart fell to the floor. 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 2: Then there just were no words. I'm Andrea Gunning and 23 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 2: this is there and gone. South Street episode eight, but 24 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 2: not knowing. 25 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 5: Hold know. 26 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 4: Is I say you in my dream, reached out in 27 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 4: the dog for you p last to me, I'll never 28 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 4: give up. 29 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 3: No matter Holla, I open my. 30 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 4: Define. 31 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 2: Just to note that views and opinions expressed in this 32 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: podcast are solely those of the individuals participating. This podcast 33 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 2: also contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone. 34 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: Discretion as advised. A few weeks after Danielle Imbo and 35 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 2: Richard Patrone vanished off South Street in Philly, FBI agent 36 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: Vitto Rosselli first started working the case. Originally tasked with 37 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 2: pulling phone records, Vido said his role has greatly expanded 38 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: since then. 39 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 6: Became the face of this investigation, whether it wanted to 40 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 6: or not. 41 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 2: As the face of the investigation, Vito became the point 42 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 2: person for the victims' families. Over time, a deep bond 43 00:02:58,919 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 2: was formed. 44 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 6: In this particular case. There were two good families on 45 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 6: both sides. This was the one that really pulled out 46 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 6: the heart strinks. And I obsessed on this case because 47 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 6: there were families depending on me to come up with 48 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 6: the answer weekends, late nights, early mornings. Number of times 49 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 6: I thought I had the golden ticket because everything was 50 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 6: lining up. I remember being so excited and just for 51 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 6: an entire month saying this is it, man, We're getting there. 52 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: This case became Vito's purpose, and the families believed he 53 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: would be the one to find answers. With him on 54 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 2: the case, hope became the current of their everyday lives. 55 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 2: Over the two decades, law enforcement would gain traction with 56 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: tips and calls, and when he had enough, Vito and 57 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: the families would meet. The hope that they would finally 58 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: get justice would swell, but Vito's leads would take him 59 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 2: to dead ends. The disappointment was like a riptide for 60 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 2: the families, pulling them under back into the deep dark 61 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: expanse of the not knowing, a place of suffocating grief 62 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 2: and deafening silence, drowning in their own imaginations. For almost 63 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 2: two decades, Vito and the families lived this cycle, a 64 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: cycle that continues to this day. 65 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 6: It came so close, so many times on the different directions, 66 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 6: only to you bag my head on the wall. 67 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 2: Vido had gotten lots of clues over the years, but 68 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 2: never enough to name a suspect or make an arrest. 69 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 6: And that stays with you. It definitely haunts me to 70 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 6: this day. Great still bothers me. 71 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 2: When we started working on this podcast, there were a 72 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 2: few people I didn't think we'd be able to interview. 73 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 2: One of them was Richard Petrone's father, Richard Senior. For 74 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 2: the sake of simplicity, we'll call him Big Rich. I 75 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 2: didn't think we'd talk with Big Rich because over the 76 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: past few years he struggled with multiple health issues. Here's 77 00:04:58,760 --> 00:04:59,679 Speaker 2: his wife, March. 78 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 7: He had many stroke they're TIA's on after the other, 79 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 7: after the other. 80 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 2: Marge said. Those many strokes have affected Big Rich's mobility 81 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: and speech. But the real decline, Marge told me, happened 82 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: after their son, Richard vanished with Daniel Embo in two 83 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: thousand and five. 84 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 7: It's like the shell of a person. He couldn't work, 85 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 7: He couldn't He was drinking terrible right, like seven cars. 86 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 2: The guy who used to yell out every answer on 87 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: Jeopardy became a shadow of himself. 88 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 4: I never did out of that chair. You never did 89 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 4: that that share. Now. 90 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 2: In the spring of twenty twenty three, Ben and I 91 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 2: were fortunate enough to meet with Big Rich at his 92 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: home in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. That afternoon. He was 93 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 2: feeling well enough to have visitors, and even on what 94 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 2: Marge described as a good day, I imagine big Rich 95 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: was tired, but he put on our brave face as 96 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 2: he sat with us at his dining room table. 97 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 4: I'm getting old. My back, my legs are going A 98 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 4: lot of it was due to me not being willing 99 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 4: to embrace diabetes. 100 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 2: That, along with his years working on his feet at 101 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: the bakery, have taken a toll on his body. And 102 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: then there's the pain that started the night his son 103 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 2: vanished off South Street. 104 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 8: Richard's disappearance that put a period in my life before 105 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 8: it was a great life. 106 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 4: After that not the same. 107 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 2: Big Rich has had to shoulder on. He lost his namesake, 108 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 2: his partner, his first born. You can feel the void 109 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: it has left. Even on the wedding day of Richard's daughter, Angela, 110 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 2: Big Rich represented his son by walking his granddaughter down 111 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 2: the aisle. 112 00:06:54,880 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 4: His daughter has turned out to be an amazing be 113 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 4: hell of a credit to Richard if he could see 114 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 4: what he left behind. 115 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 2: That afternoon, big Rich shared so much about his son, 116 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 2: like how they used to travel to the Meadowlands to 117 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 2: see Bruce Springsteen. 118 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 4: Springsteen was his Touchdowe from the time he was five 119 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 4: years old till he disappeared. 120 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 2: And in two thousand and five the music stopped. 121 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 4: I mean I stopped listening to music for the longs time. 122 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: Instead, Big Rich turned to writing. He began journaling to 123 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 2: help him deal with his new reality. He shared some 124 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: of those writings with me. A lot of it is 125 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: big Rich unpacking the night of February nineteenth and the aftermath. 126 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: But at other points he writes beautiful prose, quoting lyrics 127 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: of Bruce Springsteen and other songwriters. One verse he quotes 128 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: jumped off the page as he spoke about the dreams 129 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: his son would never live to see. It says, I 130 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 2: have these moments I'll steady and strong. I'm feeling so 131 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 2: holy and humble. The next thing I know, I'm all 132 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 2: worried and weak, and I feel myself starting to crumble. 133 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 2: Big Rich even penned a letter about Richard to Bruce Springsteen. 134 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 4: I almost expected I get some response. 135 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: Nothing much like his letter. His questions about what happened 136 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 2: to his son remained unanswered. He held out hope, but 137 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: that hope evaporated into fear and then pain, unending pain, 138 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 2: and that's when he turned to the bottle. 139 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 4: I'd be out take a delivery and I'd stop in 140 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 4: the bar. I drink two doubles. Next morning, I get up, 141 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 4: pour myself a drink, and I go. 142 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 2: Other than the occasional glass of wine. Big Rich said 143 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 2: he gave up drinking years ago, even though the pain 144 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 2: all that booze used to numb is still there. I 145 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 2: thought back to our first visit to the Patrichy Phones 146 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: for Sunday dinner, and how no one wanted to sit 147 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: in Richard or big Rich's chair, and how both seats 148 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 2: have been called for years now. 149 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 4: Easter, Thanksgiving, holidays. You know, make they same? I mean you, 150 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 4: I act like they do. 151 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: Big Rich even opened up about Danielle, who he knew 152 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 2: from the time she was fifteen. 153 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 4: I loved her. She was the closest thing my son 154 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 4: would ever get to, the perfect match, the girl you'd 155 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 4: want in your house, take care of the kids, and 156 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 4: be willing to go out. And she liked the things 157 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 4: you'd like. Just a good girl. 158 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 2: Big Rich admitted the thought of his son marrying Danielle 159 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 2: gave him pause. 160 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 4: And I said to him, I hope you don't want 161 00:09:55,640 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 4: to get married, because she's already been married. Twice. Maybe 162 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 4: you could just live with her a while. He said, 163 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 4: Look that I can't matter with her yet. He said, 164 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 4: I'm not happy with myself sometimes, and I say, yeah, 165 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 4: you're right, but you're getting here. You're getting here. 166 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 2: He was getting there, after all, Richard was only thirty five. 167 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: As the conversation continued, I asked Big Rich more about 168 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: the investigation. Big rich took a deep breath and readjusted 169 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 2: himself in his chair. Then he stared off into the distance, 170 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 2: almost as though he was searching for something. 171 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 4: Fido told me we thought it was the murder. 172 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 2: For higher Vido as an FBI agent, Vido Rosselli. 173 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 4: The evidence speaks for itself. I think the car got 174 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 4: chopped or crushed, and you're never going to find it. 175 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 4: We don't know if they were followed, or if the 176 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 4: guy was waiting outside or a partner. Had to be 177 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 4: at least two guys, and we don't know if they 178 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 4: jumped him, they came up behind him. I know Richard 179 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 4: then he got a temper. Maybe things got down in hand. Well, 180 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 4: maybe they clock Richard tell her to get in the car, 181 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 4: but they drive Richard's truck away and then whatever happened happened. 182 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 2: Big Rich's body may have slowed down, but the endless 183 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 2: possibilities about what happened to his son continue to race 184 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 2: through his mind. 185 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 4: But as Vito said, it could have just been a 186 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 4: thing that went wrong. He told me once this the 187 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 4: kind of case stays with you. Ain't say I'll never 188 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 4: give up. I said, that's okay, but he is going 189 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 4: to be twenty years How much more do I have 190 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 4: to wait? 191 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 2: Big Rich said. At some point during the investigation, the 192 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 2: authorities started to eye him, and that's when things got 193 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 2: really uncomfortable. Richard Patrone, Senor, who for the sake of simplicity, 194 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 2: were calling Big Rich, talked about the roller coaster of 195 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: emotions his family has been on since the day his 196 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 2: son disappeared, especially every time the police asked to speak 197 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 2: with him. That's when he get his hopes up. Did 198 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 2: they find his son? Do they know what happened? Was 199 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 2: someone in custody? 200 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 4: I got a phone call one day, was a young 201 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 4: detective on the case. 202 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 2: The detective wanted to talk with Big Rich and person 203 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 2: and asked if you could stop by the station. 204 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 4: I said, yeah, sure, I'll be there. Now. I'm figuring 205 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 4: if a guy won't talk to me, must have something intelligence. 206 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 2: When he arrived, big Rich said, their conversation quickly got uncomfortable. 207 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 4: He said, well, you said you left the bakery one 208 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 4: two o'clock in the year, you know. I said, yeah, Well, 209 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 4: who would close up? Said my son? He said, well, 210 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 4: we have information he had gamble dats. I said, where'd 211 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 4: you get this? Well, you know, we can't say my 212 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 4: friends of Danielle said by I said, my son doesn't gamble. 213 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 4: There was that story. There was another story having to 214 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 4: do with money. They had to hear this shit from 215 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 4: Danielle nobody else, or they're rinking it up. 216 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 2: Big Rich blamed Danielle's family and friend for spreading what 217 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 2: he called lies and rumors. He even wrote a strongly 218 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 2: written letter to Felisa Tobray, Danielle's mother. 219 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 4: You kept that, I kept it all this time. 220 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 2: Yet Marche handed Ben a copy of big Rich's letter, 221 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: titled The Shame. I won't read the entire thing, but 222 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 2: I will share a few lines. Our son is gone. 223 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 2: He is not here to defend himself. He is also 224 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 2: a victim here, but you seem to have forgotten that 225 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 2: and continue to victimize the victim. 226 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 4: I said, listen please don't mention my son's involvement at all, 227 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 4: or else I'm not going to get in a pisson 228 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 4: match with her. 229 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 2: Along with showing away rumors about Richard, big Rich and 230 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 2: Marge also had their struggle with law enforcement. At one 231 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: point during the investigation, they made big Rich take a polygraph. 232 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: You know what that did to him? 233 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 9: One day when they brought him in to take a 234 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 9: lie detector test to say, you know what happened to 235 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 9: your son, they said, we get lied to every day. 236 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 9: Maybe you owed somebody money, and they said no, nothing 237 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 9: in his background would have ever led to that. 238 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 2: Law enforcement has never charged or named big Rich as 239 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 2: a suspect, and he even told us it's all water 240 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: under the bridge. 241 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 4: I think you don't trust me now after all these years. 242 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 4: But the thing I'm afraid of, I don't feel as 243 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 4: though I've given it my all. 244 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 2: I don't feel as though I've given it my all. 245 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: Marge said, It's a familiar phrase that big Rich has 246 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 2: said since the very beginning. 247 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 7: He just cried. I cried. 248 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 4: I cried. 249 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 7: We had every law enforcement, we had the FBI, we 250 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 7: have the violent Crime Unit in and out of our 251 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 7: house every day. What do you want to do, and 252 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 7: so we just felt like he should have did more. 253 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 2: Big Rich wasn't the only voice we didn't expect to include. 254 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 2: Midway through this podcast, we got a text message telling 255 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 2: us that someone else wanted to speak with us. 256 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: My name is Felisa Tobray and Danielle Otobray, Imbo's mother. 257 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 2: When Ben and I embarked on this project, Danielle's brother 258 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 2: John kindly asked us not to involve their mother Felice. 259 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 2: Much like Big Rich, she's been dealing with health issues 260 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 2: and he didn't want to add more stress to her life. 261 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 2: In fact, she said, all along, John has tried to 262 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 2: shield her from the investigation. 263 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: Beto would always call John. Originally he would call me 264 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: and then I would be all upset on the phone, 265 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: and John had said to him, look call me and 266 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: I'll call her, and that's how it went. 267 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 2: Felise was aware that her son John, his wife Jodi, 268 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 2: and her grandchildren had been interviewed for this podcast. 269 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: And to be perfectly candid with you, I have never 270 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: listened to a podcast. I don't even know how to 271 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 1: do that. So whatever is being said prior to this, 272 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:05,959 Speaker 1: I don't know. 273 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 2: But recently, she said, her grandson started asking a lot 274 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 2: of questions about Danielle, and these questions were in response 275 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 2: to things they heard on this podcast. 276 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: There's things that are going on that I have no clue, 277 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: and I like it like that. I know it sounds terrible, 278 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: but let me for a little while be in my 279 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: little cocoon. It helps me. I have so much going 280 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: on right now that I don't even want to get into, 281 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: but it's nice to be in a cocoon and be 282 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: protected for a little while. 283 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 2: That day, Felice decided to let her guard down and 284 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: emerge from her cocoon. She said she was ready to 285 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 2: share her truth. 286 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: The only thing I could say is I only know 287 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: what I know from my side of the table. 288 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: Up until now, we've always heard how the meet up 289 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 2: between Danielle and Richard were spontaneous in spur of the moment, 290 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: but Felly said that's not entirely true. 291 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: Those arrangements to meet were made a few days before Saturday, 292 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: and nobody knew. No one knew, I knew. 293 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 2: Fully said that Danielle and Richard hadn't talked since sometime 294 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 2: right after the New Year, when Danielle decided she wanted 295 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: to be alone. 296 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: Might have been a week after or maybe ten days after. 297 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 1: She just didn't want to be with either of them, 298 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: not her husband because they were just separated, and not Richard. 299 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 2: A few weeks past, and then right after Valentine's Day, 300 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 2: Richard called Danielle. 301 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: I was there when he called. It was either a 302 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: Wednesday or a Thursday night. I mean, that was the 303 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: first conversation they had had in quite a while, so 304 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: that's why she was surprised when he was on the phone. 305 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: She said. 306 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 2: Richard asked Danielle out for that Saturday night. 307 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: He wanted to take her to dinner, and she was like, 308 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: I'm already I have planned and she wouldn't break the 309 00:18:58,080 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: plans with us to do that. 310 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 2: She is referring to is the girl's night at Chicky 311 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 2: and Pete's. 312 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: He said, well, why can't we meet up. 313 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 2: Afterwards, fully said. After Danielle kept hesitating, Richard asked her 314 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 2: to put her mother on the phone. 315 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: Of course, get on the phone, and he said, I 316 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: don't understand. You know, I love her, And that's when 317 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: I said, you just have to back off a little 318 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: bit and give her some space. 319 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 2: So you have Richard, who clearly tried to give Danielle 320 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 2: some space, but then decided, you know what, I'm just 321 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 2: going to shoot my shot. 322 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: I give him credit that he did give her that 323 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: space and then cold. I guess he figured, you know, 324 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: if I don't ask, if I don't try. 325 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: I'll never know, and to his credit, it worked. 326 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: She agreed to meet him after dinner to have a 327 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: drink and that was it. I mean, these are things 328 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: that we never put out there for the public to know. 329 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 2: Felly said. They informed law enforcement of the full story. 330 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: That detail is something she also believes no one knew 331 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 2: ahead of time other than her, Danielle and Richard. 332 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: She didn't really want anybody to know that she was 333 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: going to have this drink with him. None of her friends, 334 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,719 Speaker 1: her brother and Jodie. No one knew. I knew because 335 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: I was there when the arrangement was made. Normally, when 336 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: we went somewhere, she always drove. She would pick me 337 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: up and drive and we would go. This night, I 338 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: drove to her because I was going to come home 339 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: by myself and Christine was going to take her to 340 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: meet her brother. 341 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 2: Police told us that she always liked Richard. 342 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: If you're good to my daughter, how do you not 343 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: like him? 344 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 2: She said she was the one who encouraged Danielle to 345 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 2: go out with Richard in the first place. 346 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: I said to her, Danielle, you know him from when 347 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: you're a teenager. Go go to dinner, go to a movie, 348 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,959 Speaker 1: get out, just get out. And so she did, and 349 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 1: their first date was Mother's Day. 350 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 2: This detail tell was something we have struggled with because 351 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: no one could remember when Danielle and Richard first started dating. 352 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 2: According to Felice, it was on Mother's Day, two thousand 353 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 2: and four. 354 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: He comes to pick her up on Mother's Day with 355 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: flowers for her and a plant for me. That's how 356 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: they started to see each other. 357 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 2: And it was good, and Felice thought Richard was good 358 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 2: to her daughter. 359 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 1: I remember literally one time she hadn't eaten old day. 360 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: When he closed the bakery, he stopped, grabbed a sandwich 361 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: for her, pack of smokes chocolate bar because she loved 362 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: the chocolate, drove to her condo and brought her something 363 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: to eat, and then went home. So he was good 364 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: to her. 365 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 2: But then the good got complicated. 366 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: And of course she then tells her the strange husband 367 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:01,479 Speaker 1: that she was going out on dates with Richard, and 368 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: in the meantime, Joe couldn't understand the fact that she 369 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 1: could even date somebody else, but like in his mind, 370 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: it was all right for him to do something, but 371 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: certainly not all right for her to do something. Did 372 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: she have her issues with her husband during that separation? Absolutely? Absolutely. 373 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 2: Danielle's mother, Felsa Tobray, talked to me and Ben for 374 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: the better part of three hours. We asked Felice about 375 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 2: Danielle's estranged husband, Joe Imbo, and how his affair changed 376 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: the trajectory of their lives. 377 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: Was he my favorite person? Now he hurt her? She 378 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: was devastated by it. She cried and hardbreaking, disappointed, like 379 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: what was wrong with me? And I did tell her 380 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 1: more than once, there's not a marriage out there, it 381 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: doesn't have problems at some point. Yours happened to happen 382 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 1: early on in a marriage. But I wanted her to 383 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 1: know that you can get through it, and some people 384 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: make it work and other people they don't. 385 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 2: As Joe tried to win Danielle back, Felice said, Danielle's 386 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: biggest struggle was whether she could trust him again. 387 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to build trust back when things happen, 388 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: and she was torn with that, but at one point 389 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: she was like, the only man in my life is 390 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: my son. She had said that many, many, many. 391 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 2: Times, Felice said Danielle turned to her as a shoulder 392 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 2: to cry on, and although Felice would often refrain from 393 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 2: telling Danielle what to do, she did offer a few 394 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 2: pieces of advice. 395 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: I did tell her, don't throw all of your troubles 396 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: out there for just anyone, because then you don't do 397 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 1: what's truly in your heart. If you want to go 398 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: back with that person, if you want to make it work, 399 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: you don't want to be judged. 400 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 2: Her point was that the more people you tell about 401 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 2: what's going on, the harder it will be for them 402 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 2: to accept whatever you choose to do. But one person 403 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 2: Palice definitely wanted Danielle to talk to was an attorney. 404 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: I said to her, you're separated, and I think the 405 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: right thing to do is you need to see what 406 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: your rights are and get an attorney. And so that 407 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: was me. That wasn't even higher. That was me. 408 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 2: Danielle's lawyer is now retired, and despite our attempts to 409 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 2: get in touch with her, we've never heard back. According 410 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 2: to police, it was the lawyer who directed Danielle to 411 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 2: change her locks. 412 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: It wasn't Danielle's idea. It was the attorney who had 413 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: said to her, you know, you need to change your locks. 414 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: The attorney was also the one who Danielle to take 415 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 2: notes of every interaction she had with Joe. 416 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: She documented everything, if they had an argument, if he 417 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: was confrontational, if he picked up little Joe late, if 418 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: he took him home late. Because they did backer back 419 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: and forth, especially when he found out that she was 420 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: going to start to date. 421 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 2: That bickering, fully said, increased once Richard entered the picture. 422 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: One of his things was I don't want another man 423 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: to raise my son. And I remember saying to Joe, 424 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 1: do you forget at one point you were going to 425 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: raise another man's son. 426 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 2: Felise explained that Joe originally left Danielle for a woman 427 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 2: who had a son of her own. 428 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: I think he then realized, like I made the biggest 429 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: mistake in my life. 430 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 2: Well, Joe tried to win Danielle back. Falise remembers a 431 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 2: phone call between Danielle and Joe that she and Richard overheard. 432 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: Rich comes to pick her up and she's on the 433 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 1: phone and I could hear her on the phone with 434 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: her husband, and he proceeds to say to her, I 435 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 1: don't understand why it won't be back. I'm a good 436 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: looking guy. 437 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 2: Well, what Felisa's sharing gives us some insight into the 438 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 2: state of the relationship. At this time, I was curious 439 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 2: how Danielle was handling all of this and whether intentional 440 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 2: or not. Felice gave me a little more insight into 441 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: both Danielle and Richard's personalities. 442 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 1: And she proceeds to say to her husband, I would 443 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: rather be with a hobbit than be with you, And 444 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: Richard turns around and mouths to me, I must be 445 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: the hobbit. This was her personality like, even when things 446 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 1: are at its very worst. 447 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 2: And while she tried to stay out of it, fully said, 448 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 2: there was one time when she felt the need to intervene. 449 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 2: It happened after Joe directly reached out to Richard. 450 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: Joe had called him at the bakery quite a few times, 451 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: and it was like over and over and over, which 452 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: he had done to Danielle on many occasions, like cold 453 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: and then she would hang up and he would call on, 454 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: you know, and that kind of thing. And I remember 455 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: even calling him one time and saying, you've got to 456 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 1: stop torturing her, like why do you keep she doesn't 457 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: want to talk to you right now. And I remember 458 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: Richard calling Danielle and saying that Joe had called and 459 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: cold and cold and cold, and I reached out to 460 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: pat Joe's mother saying, please just call him and tell 461 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: him to stop. 462 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 2: I should mention that we spoke to Joe's mother at length, 463 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 2: but she did not want to come on the record. 464 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 2: Fullice didn't go into too much detail about Joe's repeated 465 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 2: phone calls. I feel like the fact that she called 466 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 2: Joe's mother to get her to intervene was very telling. 467 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 2: But Felise made it clear no one in her family 468 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 2: ever lived in fear of Joe. 469 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: Now, we were never afraid of Joe, Danielle or brought nobody. 470 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: Joe is the kind of guy where he wants you 471 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: to know what his point of view is. If he 472 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: thinks you're wrong and he thinks he's right, that's the 473 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:14,479 Speaker 1: way it is. 474 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 2: The Patrons have a tradition of Sunday dinner, and so 475 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 2: too did the atoebrace fully said she hosted her family 476 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 2: for Sunday dinner at her house, but that tradition ended 477 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 2: Sunday after Danielle vanished at. 478 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: First Sunday, We've just set at the takebook good Buddy eight. 479 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: It's just yeah, it's tough. It was tough, but we 480 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: still stayed together. We just didn't do it at the 481 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: same table. You know, there's not a day that goes 482 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: by that I don't truly miss her, my. 483 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 2: Friend at her son, John took over hosting Sunday dinner. Meanwhile, 484 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 2: Joe moved into Danielle's condo to take care of his son, 485 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 2: and Felice said, Joe also took over Danielle's bills, like 486 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 2: her car and cell phone. 487 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: Like I don't know what we were thinking, like somehow, 488 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: some way, this girl's going to walk through this door 489 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: and everything's going to be good. In fact, the band 490 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: that she sang with had a little fundraiser for her 491 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: and raised money. And this is where our crazy minds were. 492 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: When she comes back, this money will get her back 493 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: on her feet again. This is how you don't want 494 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:41,719 Speaker 1: to accept what you know to be true. Does that 495 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: make sense to you? 496 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 2: It made total sense, and that money they raised it 497 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 2: eventually became a college fund for Danielle's son, Little Joe, I. 498 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: Find it hard to believe that they never got a 499 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: handle on anything, But there was never anything for them 500 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: to get a handle on. There was never a video, 501 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: they weren't on a camera, There wasn't a lipstick, there 502 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: wasn't a tissue. Even the truck disappeared. 503 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 2: Fully said that as months passed, Joe decided it was 504 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 2: time to cancel Danielle's cell phone. He also sold her 505 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: car and condo and planned to move to North Carolina 506 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 2: with his son. 507 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: Joe had called and said, if you want to come 508 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: over and you have you know, come and get whatever 509 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: you want. So we go over. We walk into the 510 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: bedroom and it was like she's still lived there. All 511 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: of her clothes were in the closet, All of her 512 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: shoes were still on the closet floor, stacked, you know, 513 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: the way you would store your shoes. All of her clothes, 514 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: JOm is everything we're still on the drawers. And he 515 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: had two suitcases and he was living out of his 516 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: suitcases all that time, never moved, never even made room 517 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: for his clothes in her closet. To me, it was 518 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: like unreal, unreal. And another reason, why is this a 519 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: man who murdered his wife? I know that they heavily 520 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: looked into Joe. I mean, it just didn't make any sense. 521 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: I do know that Joe went had a lie detector test. 522 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: My son took him. Nothing ever came of it. Joe 523 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: just wanted us to know that he had nothing to 524 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: do with it, and that was his main concern. He 525 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,959 Speaker 1: didn't care what anybody thought. He cared what I thought 526 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: and what John thought. And I said, I absolutely don't 527 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: believe you did this now. 528 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 2: As you know that put Danielle's family bea tobrays at 529 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: odds with Richard's family, the Patrons. 530 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: I was very supportive of Marge and mister Petrin. We 531 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: both are missing our children now. We believe that there's 532 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: some failed play and we wanted to be united in 533 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: finding out what happened to our children. But they said 534 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: immediately that it was Joe, and I was like, no, 535 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: I don't think so, and Marge was mad. They never 536 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: considered any other possibility. And then it was like, why 537 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: are you protecting him? Why would I protect him if 538 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: I believed that he himself murdered or had someone do this, 539 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: Why would I protect him? That made no sense to me, 540 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: none at all. You know, I'm not going to agree 541 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: with things that you're saying that I don't agree with. 542 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: So I made a decision to take a step back 543 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: from them because we're going through enough. I don't need 544 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: to have you screaming at me. 545 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 2: I know he asked this already, But up until the 546 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 2: point that she went missing, did you ever feel like 547 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 2: she was in danger or felt threatened by Joe? Yeah, 548 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: and that's why Feley said she never thought of fighting 549 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 2: for custody of little Joe. 550 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: Little Joe has a father. Why would I want to 551 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: take custody of him? That never ever ever came into 552 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: play or anything never even occurred to me. 553 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 2: Since the first day Danielle and Richard vanished, Joe Imbo 554 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 2: has been caught in the middle. The Patrons firmly believed 555 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 2: Joe had something to do with it. Theotobreys believe they 556 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 2: don't think he's capable of something like this. That difference 557 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 2: of opinion has caused a rift between both families that 558 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 2: journalist Steve Volk first reported on ten years ago. 559 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,959 Speaker 5: They could obviously find support through each other, and they 560 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 5: just don't. They cut each other off in spite of 561 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 5: a long long friendship over this sense of personal slight. 562 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 2: Steve said he's surprised that the two families have remained 563 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 2: at odds because of the similarities they both share. 564 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 5: I was like, wow, like you're looking into a mirror here. 565 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 5: They could not have been more similar in terms of 566 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 5: the emotional depth that they were operating in. They were 567 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 5: operating in this lower circle of hell. And it struck 568 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 5: me as a human being that like, maybe by asking 569 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 5: some of these questions, I mean, yes, I generate material 570 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 5: for the story, but maybe I make them think about 571 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 5: the support they could have from one another. 572 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 2: Steve said, not many people can understand the pain the 573 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 2: a Toobra and Patron families have endured, except the Atobrays 574 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 2: and Patrons. 575 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 5: And so when I originally wrote it, I thought, Gee, 576 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 5: maybe they'll read it and they'll see that they're looking 577 00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 5: into this mirror and they'll reconcile. 578 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 2: But no, the starting and ending point was Joe Imbo. 579 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 2: As we've said throughout this podcast, Joe has never been 580 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 2: cleared by law enforcement. He's also never been charged, and 581 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 2: as we've mentioned previously, even a grand jury was convened, 582 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 2: but no action was taken against Joe. 583 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 5: So if this guy had nothing to do with it, 584 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 5: and ended up in a situation where the circumstances like 585 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 5: kind of surround him and point their finger at him, right, 586 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 5: because that's what the circumstances do. God that would be 587 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 5: its own circle of hell. 588 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 2: And for Joe, it was so where is Joe today? 589 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: Oh, he had like a heart attack. 590 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 2: That's next time on There and Gone. If you have 591 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 2: any information about the disappearance of Danielle Imbo and Richard Petrone, 592 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 2: please call the Citizens Crime Commission hipline at two one 593 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 2: five five four six eight four seven seven, or contact 594 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 2: the Thearren Gone team at Thearngonpod at gmail dot com. 595 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,840 Speaker 2: That's Therein Gone pod at gmail dot com. We're grateful 596 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 2: for your support. One way to show support is by 597 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 2: subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget 598 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 2: to rate and review Therein Gone. Five star reviews go 599 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 2: a long way. A big thank you to all of 600 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 2: our listeners. Thereon Gon is a production of Glass Podcasts, 601 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 2: a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. 602 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 2: The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Benfetnerman. 603 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 2: It's hosted and written by me Andrea Gunning, with additional 604 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 2: reporting and writing by Ben Fetterman. The series is also 605 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 2: written and produced by Todd Gans. Our associate producer is 606 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 2: Kristin Melcurie. Research by Mason Klinder, Anna Hamilton, and Bella Ricky. 607 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 2: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio 608 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 2: editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio, additional editings support from 609 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 2: Nico Aruka and Tanner Robbins. There Gunn's theme and original 610 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 2: compositions were composed by Oliver Bains and Darry mcaulay of 611 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 2: Noisert Music Library provided by Mybe Music and a special 612 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 2: thanks to both the Patron and a Tobray families. Your 613 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 2: strength and willingness to share your stories have been invaluable 614 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 2: through the making of this podcast. Thank you for allowing 615 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 2: us to honor the memories of your loved ones and 616 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 2: to help keep your stories alive. For more podcasts from iHeart, 617 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 618 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 2: your podcasts.