WEBVTT - Skylar Neese 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.400 You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.160 Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.080 are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.680 and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.280 This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.160 for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:31.800 Hello, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Rasha Pacuerero and. 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:35.880 I'm Evet Genteeley. And this week we are talking about 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:39.920 the death of Skyler Nice, a teenager who was murdered 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:44.360 by the closest people to her, her two best friends. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:50.960 Yes, her two teenage best friends. And it's absolutely heartbreaking 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:55.720 and I'm sure everyone is wondering, how could this happen? 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.480 Why did this happen? That is the question that we're 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:04.600 always asking why. But today we are so happy to 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:10.080 welcome back our friend em William Phelps, investigative journalists and 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:14.360 host of the podcast Paper Ghost and Crossing the Line. 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:17.000 Yes, we like to call him Matthew, even though most 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:20.240 other people call him Phelps, and we're really looking forward 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:23.240 to talking to him today. But first our producer Trevor 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:28.160 is going to walk us through today's case. Ten years ago, 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:31.280 Skyler Nice came to this spot and never returned. Now 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:34.080 a decade later, her memory lives on and those who 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:34.760 knew her best. 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.279 We never want anyone to go through what we went through. 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:41.880 It's the worst hell I've ever ever been through, no. 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:46.200 Matter what she says now. But she was young and 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:51.040 she didn't know better. I'm sorry. Five and ten year 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:53.360 olds know not to commit murder. 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:58.559 Skyler Nice was a sixteen year old girl from Star City, 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.680 West Virginia, who was stabbed to death by her two 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:05.279 closest friends and left to die in a remote area 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:09.120 one state away. Skyler was described by most as a 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:12.840 good girl with nice friends and two loving parents in 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:16.400 a pleasant home in suburban West Virginia. She was just 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.120 eight years old when she met her best friend, a 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.960 girl named Sheila Eddie. Eddie had a troubled relationship with 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:25.680 her own parents, but grew to be very close with 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:29.600 Skyler's parents, who described her as a second daughter. Their 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:33.160 freshman year, Sheila transferred to Skyler's high school, and they 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:36.160 both started hanging out with a third girl, Rachel's Chouf. 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.240 The trio were inseparable, but when Skyler and Rachel started 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:44.919 getting close, Sheila got jealous. Skyler and Sheila began having 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:48.280 public arguments on Twitter, and in a tweet in August 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:52.200 of twenty eleven, Skyler alluded to having dirt on both friends. 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:55.359 She may have been alluding to a recent night when 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.800 she allegedly witnessed Sheila and Rachel making out. After raiding 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:03.520 Rachel's mom's liquor case. Sheila and Rachel now both turned 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.360 on their former friend and tried to smear her reputation 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:10.320 at school. They told classmates she was annoying and clinging, 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:14.360 but then they went a step further planning her murder. 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:18.400 When some classmates overheard them talking in school, they were 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:22.399 sent to the principal's office, but then sent back to class. Then, 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:27.520 on July fifth, twenty twelve, Rachel and Sheila invited Skuyler 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:31.000 out for a late night drive while her parents slept. 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:33.959 Skyler snuck out and the three drove to a remote 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:38.320 area just over the West Virginia border into Pennsylvania. There, 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:42.440 Rachel and Sheila brandished knives and stabbed Skyler nice until 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:45.640 she was no longer moving. They then dragged her body 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.480 to a nearby creek and hid it under some sticks. 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:53.040 Rocks and dirt. Skuyler's parents were alarmed about her disappearance, 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.000 but Sheila told them they'd drop Skyler off a few 0:03:56.040 --> 0:04:00.000 blocks down the street. After the late night hangout, months passed, 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:02.760 during which Sheila spent a great deal of time with 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:06.920 the Nice family, crying over Skuyler's disappearance, and even hanging 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:11.360 up missing persons posters around the neighborhood. At school, Sheila 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:14.160 and Rachel grew reserved and only hung out with each other. 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:19.280 When they were questioned by police, Rachel acted nervous, but Sheila, 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:23.560 on the other hand, acted quote perky, one officer said, quote, 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:27.560 She'd look you in the eye and speak matter of faculty. Finally, 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:32.640 in January of twenty thirteen, Rachel's chauf had a mental breakdown. 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:36.240 After going to a psychiatric ward, she confessed to the crime. 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:40.200 She then led the police to Skuyler's body. Sheila Eddie 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.279 was at Skuyler's parents when the discovery was made, and 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:46.880 she cried along with Skuyler's family. When the police asked 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:50.599 Rachel why they killed their friend, she simply replied, we 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:54.600 just didn't like her. The two girls were arrested. Sheila 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:57.320 was convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:00.720 in prison. Rachel was sentenced to thirty fe years in prison. 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:05.120 And so what happened to Skyler Nice? How did a 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:09.320 friendship between teenage girls turn into a bloody murder? And 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:12.480 how does this story reveal a troubling mental health crisis 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:15.479 for teenagers which often leads to violence. 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.960 A few months ago, we talked about the case of 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:27.000 Michelle McNeil with the one and only m William Phelps, 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:31.000 who is the true crime author and host of the 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:36.040 podcast Paper Ghosts and Crossing the Line. We are back 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:40.520 with we like to call him Matthew is in the house. 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:42.880 We are so excited to have you back on facing 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:47.840 evil and you know today we're talking about Skylar Nice, 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:51.039 so we'll get into that in a little bit. But Matthew, 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:54.080 tell us, you know what's been going on, what's coming 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:56.640 up next for you. I know we were just talking about, 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:59.440 you know, the world that we live in and all 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.120 the crazy things that are happening. That really takes a 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:06.360 toll on us. But you know, you're such a deep, sensitive, 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:10.200 wise human being and I know you always push forward. 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.120 So what's new with you? Tell us what's new? 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:17.560 I'm working on season four of Paper Ghosts, my limited 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:21.640 series podcast, and I'm just getting ready to head out 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:25.360 to the Ozarks. There's a case out there of a 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:29.120 young girl who went missing in the late eighties and 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.920 she was found some time later, and I'm looking at 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:35.360 a couple of other cases that are similar to it 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:39.480 that could be connected to hers. And there's cause at 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:43.400 the time, late eighties, early nineties, that area of the country, 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:47.240 the Midwest, if you will, there was a rash of 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:52.839 you know, young teen girls going missing and some of 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:57.880 them found, some not found. So this case is really interesting. 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:02.719 I have a suspect that I'm really focused on that 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:08.039 hasn't been named, and no one knows. Yeah, we'll see 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:10.960 where it leads. You know. It's always interesting when I 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.280 go out there and spend a couple of weeks and 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:16.800 start knocking on doors and talking to people. So I'm 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:20.480 looking forward to that. I have a few other podcasts 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:25.840 that I'm in the process of developing and producing and 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:29.000 things like that that are similar. You know, one of 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:33.200 them is very different, but mostly they're similar to what 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:37.240 I do, which is investigative journalism. 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:39.760 It's funny since we last interviewed you, Matthew, I have 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.320 to tell you, like, you're one of our very first interviews, 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:46.840 and we've interviewed you know, several people since, and it 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:49.600 makes me think, especially like how you got into the 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:51.880 true crime genre and how you're still like moving your 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:55.400 way through it, like this has been a calling, I 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:58.440 think for all of us, because we just want to 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:00.560 see the light in the darkness in this world. And 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:03.520 I know that's exactly what you do. And the more 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:05.880 and more that we're in this I'm like, oh, we're 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:09.040 supposed to be here, and I just feel like you 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:11.320 do that every single day. And I just have to 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:15.360 say it's very very beautiful and you're an amazing example 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:17.880 of what one person can do. 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:21.320 Well, thank you very much. I mean, I appreciate that. 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:25.320 I'm humbled by that. I was recently watching something and 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.280 it's a metaphor really for what you just said. So 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:32.760 when the sun goes down, it doesn't get dark, the 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:37.439 sky doesn't get dark. What it is, according to physicists 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.920 and scientists is the light from the stars we see 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:44.320 hasn't reached us yet. That's why they look dim. It 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:48.280 hasn't reached us yet, So it doesn't light up the earth. 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:50.079 When the sun goes around us. 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:51.760 I love that, you know. 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:53.840 And then when the sun comes out, we can't see 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.520 we can't see any of them. So that little tiny 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:02.360 bit of light heading towards the earth to shine, I 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:04.960 look for that little tiny bit of light, you know, 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:07.640 and see where I can. I can just get in there. 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:09.079 And that's why we love you. 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:10.360 Amen to that. 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.840 It's just so interesting how you you know, like Russia said, 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:16.840 we have interviewed so many different people, but there's just 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:20.320 certain people when you know you're of like mind and 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:23.680 like spirit, and we've felt that way with you from 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.280 the get because this is a you know, as we know, 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.240 this is a hard industry, you know, to be in 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:30.640 to talk about. 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:32.840 This, it's heavy, too heavy, shiite. 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.280 Yeah, But like you know, like I said before, if 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:41.080 we can just open you know, one person's mind right, 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:45.640 or help someone heal and move upward and onward, or 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:48.199 solve a case, you know, like you. 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:50.280 You know, with bringing justice. 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.679 I mean, it's these these things are so important, so 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:54.920 important in this world. 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:55.160 You know. 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:59.840 Bringing answers to families is really rewarding. That that really 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.280 keeps me going when I get with a family and 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:05.280 I say, look, I've spent a couple of years here 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:08.520 on this and this is what happened. This is what 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:11.840 you're never going to hear because law enforcement doesn't have 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:13.640 the resources, they don't have the budget. 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:17.199 So here you go, like, please do something with this. 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:21.480 Yeah yeah, right now, I mean they can know that 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.920 at least they have some information about what happened. Yeah, right, 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:28.640 there's a why. And actually I was talking to a 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:32.400 prosecutor interviewing a prosecutor the other day and he was saying, look, 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:36.080 you know, I'm happy to talk with you because you know, 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:38.160 no one else is going to do anything with this, 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:42.200 so you know, I'm very happy to give you what 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.640 you need to find out what you can, you know, 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:48.880 And that's that's pretty gratifying for me after a long 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:53.040 career of doing this, you know that the trust Yeah yeah, 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.400 there's a lot of bullshit podcasts true crime, you know, 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.719 makeup and TikTok and all of this out there. 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:03.600 So right, we're all of us are trying our best 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:05.680 to do ethical true crime. Yeah. 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:06.280 Yeah. 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:09.199 To get back to the case that we're talking about today, 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:12.640 like you mentioned, you know, finding out the why. So 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:17.680 let's talk about the case of Skyler Niece. This is 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.440 not unsolved. We do know who did this? But what 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:24.680 were your first impressions about this case, about this young 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:25.480 girl Skyler. 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:33.160 I've written many books about teens and murder, teens who kill, 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:37.120 that sort of thing, so I'm very familiar with the 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:41.920 psychology and what's going on. Right. So, all of these cases, 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:48.360 this one especially, they're devastating. Right. These are people who 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:50.439 haven't lived a life yet. 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:52.440 Right, their brain's not even fully developed. 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:53.000 Yeah. 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:57.360 What struck me was a touching scene that I read 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:01.199 about the dad and her and a tea party. That 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:02.240 was very touching. 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:04.400 King and the. 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:07.840 Punchline is that you know he he he asks her, 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:10.960 you can't reach the water faucet. Where you getting the 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:13.720 water from that? You've been that I've been drinking And 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:14.800 she said, oh, the toilet. 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:17.839 That's right. 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.840 That really shows you know, love, you know, the love 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:26.160 between between them all. But the other thing that stands 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.960 out to me but doesn't surprise me, is in all 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:33.880 of these cases, you have a leader and a follower, 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.720 and very very rarely that will a team kill by 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:44.120 his or herself. Right. They always there's always someone else connected. 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:48.360 There's always someone else involved. Many times there's more than 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:52.840 one involved. Yeah, Right, this case also struck me as 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:56.280 the I will say. I mean, I can't diagnose anybody. 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:59.000 I'm not a psychologist, but one of these girls is 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:02.040 bona fide so show path the other isn't. That's that's 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:06.040 clear to me here, you know. And the behavior after 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:08.080 the murder right. 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:08.800 With their family. 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:32.600 Yeah, this case, right, it's so baffling when you think 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:36.280 about it, because you think about teenage girls and you 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:39.240 know they should just be having fun going to a prom, 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.320 you know, living their lives, not this heavy, heavy duty 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:45.840 jealousy and anger. 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:47.800 But you see it so much. 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:49.920 It's like I think about the cases that you know, 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:53.640 we've worked on in the past with Conrad Roy, that 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:57.880 particular case where it's Michelle Carter, you know, and even 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:02.040 the Shonda Shaer case. You know, it's a leader and 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:07.920 a follower and someone gets incredibly upset and then get 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:12.360 someone else to join and does these horrible things. I mean, 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:15.559 it turns into a paradox of violence. 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:16.240 Right. 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:20.080 The mental issues that these children have gone through that 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.480 have led to this moment that has a lot to 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:24.640 do with it, don't you think. 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:25.760 Absolutely. 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:28.960 Let me ask you both a question, Yeah, how do 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:33.000 you feel social media played in this case? Particularly huge? 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:33.680 Yes? 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:37.480 It's huge, and I have to say full, full, full disclosure. 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:42.600 I have been on social media since my Space, and 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:47.720 for me, you know, it's always been something that's very 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.840 prominent in my life. But I joined as an adult. 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.280 You know, I'm forty four years old, and I think 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:56.920 I started. I was on my Space whenever it started, 0:14:56.960 --> 0:14:58.920 and I was already in my late twenties. I was 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:04.560 not a teenager. I cannot even imagine what these girls 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:06.880 were going through. And we know that, you know, Twitter 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:09.320 at the time had a lot to do with it. 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:11.680 And now Twitter now, for me, of course, in twenty 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.760 twenty three, is not my favorite place. It makes me 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:18.720 scared for my daughter, who's eleven. Yeah, yeah, right, So 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.320 we must all think that social media has a lot 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:22.600 to do with it, right. 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:27.640 Particularly here I'm looking at Sheila Eddie yep, and how 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:31.120 she says I feel great right now, Skyler answers, this 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.320 is the best night ever, right, and you know she's 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:35.280 about to be murdered. 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:35.720 Wow. 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.320 Let me just back up. They're talking during the day 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:43.600 on social media. Other people are piping in, amping up 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:48.600 the conversation, right, so there's all these influences coming in 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:53.000 that are just invisible, right, invisible influences, right, yeah, kind 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:56.440 of stoking the fire if you will, yeah, yeah, And 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.720 she says at one point, it really, this is Skyler. 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.240 It really doesn't take much to piss me off. 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:02.760 Right. 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.080 She talks about how stress will be the death of her, 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.560 about being bored, and I looked at that and I thought, 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:15.160 it's the classic confluence of peer pressure, right, the symptoms 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:19.360 of peer pressure. An environment for someone so young, a 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:23.400 mind so young, kind of in a social pressure cooker, 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:27.160 keeping up with her friends, trying to fit in, trying 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.880 to be popular, trying not to be bullied. And then 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:34.280 on July fifth, twenty twelve, Shila and Rachel invite Skyler 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:36.840 to go out. And what struck me here is this. 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:41.800 They pack knives, paper towels, bleach things to clean up 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:43.320 with and to shovel. 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:44.600 They meditated. 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:49.120 This is not an impulsive decision. Now, I remember I 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:53.000 did the slender Man case and it involved same age kids, 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:58.600 three kids, same age, three girls, and one was a follower, 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.720 one was a leader. You know, they did the same thing. 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:03.840 They packed a knife, they went out into the woods, 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:08.120 same thing. I don't know that this sort of thing 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:08.880 happened in my. 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:10.760 Day mine either, Matthew. 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.000 I mean, I think social media plays a big part 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.560 in it, and I think television as well. You know, 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.440 I think, how do they know to go and get 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:21.439 bleach and do this and do that? 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:22.040 You know. 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:26.600 I just think that we're bombarded with with all of 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:31.200 this evil, like twenty four to seven, that it's available 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:35.119 to these young minds and unless the parents, you know, 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:38.600 and obviously a parent can't monitor everything. 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.080 Now, you can't keep the kids in a bubble. 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.160 But when it comes to social media, like I don't 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.280 have children, but I can tell you this now, Like 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:50.280 my niece Lee Lani, it's like she's like, I want Instagram. 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:53.000 I'm not a mother. I'm not a mother, but I'm like, no, 0:17:54.640 --> 0:18:00.399 definitely not no TikTok, no Instagram, not till you're one. 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:01.240 Yeah. 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:05.120 Yeah, that's great because with that stuff, the more you 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:10.000 look at, the more you get. So it has to 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.480 have an effect on the mind of someone so young. 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.399 But the question, I think, if we're facing evil, the 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:22.040 question becomes cannot push a kid over the edge right 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:26.000 and to commit some sort of violent act. And the 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.879 big question in this case is what you started with me? 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:30.359 Is the why? 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:31.200 Yeah? 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:31.560 Why? 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:32.240 Why? 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:35.080 Yeah, there's just a couple of things also that stood 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:38.440 out to me when I went through the case, and 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.520 that was the murder itself. How you know, of course 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:44.840 they tackled her, started stabbing her, they did all of 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.600 that stuff, and she fought back, right, And then there's 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.840 the comment, but Sheila kept stabbing her until she was 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:56.679 no longer moving and her quote neck stopped making gurgling 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:01.400 sounds end quote. So for a child to use those words, 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:06.600 that detail is significant. It's significant in the fact that 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:10.920 it tells me how active, aware and completely in touch 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.919 with what is happening and what they are doing. In 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:19.120 order to make that observation and then later talk about it, 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:21.639 you are in the moment, you know what's going on. 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:25.320 You're not in some blind rage, you're not blacking out, 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.359 you know, you know exactly what you're doing and the 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:31.880 consequences of what is happening. 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:34.679 So that's when we go back to and this is 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:39.439 the question, because there was no remorse, you know, after 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:44.600 this happened, Sheila was you know, confronting and you know, consoling, 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:48.600 I should say, the parents, and she knew what she did. 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:51.200 As a sociopathic part right, so that. 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:56.159 We could absolutely say Sheila is a sociopath without diagnosing. 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:56.600 Of course. 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.199 Well, let's consider the situation for a minute. So what 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:07.480 you have is a true, unempathetic, cold person, And let's 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:12.080 look at what she's actually doing. She's in the family's house, Yeah, 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:17.200 consoling the family, handing out flyers, hanging up She's participating. 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:19.800 If we think back, who else did that? 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:21.520 Michelle carter Yep. 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:27.240 So it shows callousness, it shows deception, it shows well 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.959 thought out lies. Right, and it begins to borderline on 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:36.199 psychopathy and the characteristics of the sociopath. We can't deny that, 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:37.679 whether we're psychologists or not. 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:43.119 It's there, yeah, right, yeah, right, it's. 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:45.040 You know, you would look at it as sadistic, antisocial, 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:47.400 all of that stuff, all that bad stuff that goes 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:53.480 along with being a sociopath and being devious and manipulating 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.360 all the way until the end. 0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:59.159 Right. And she was with the family when Skuyler's body 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:00.000 was discovered. 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:03.280 If I'm not mistaken, yeah, she's she counseled the family. 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:06.159 Yeah said how said how sorry she was? 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:06.680 Yeah. 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:09.680 But let's put our attention to and this happens in 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:12.040 every one of these cases. So when you have a 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.800 leader and a follower, the follower always cracks. 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:16.880 Right, yeh, which is what happened. 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:21.399 Followers the one with remorse, with guilt, with a conscience, 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:27.800 and the follower always goes in and cuts that deal first, right, right, 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:30.600 And that's exactly what you have here, I. 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:34.560 Think Rachel, you know, yes, she did, you know kind 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:38.360 of deal, but it like really started to weigh on 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:44.000 her her psychological, her well being, Like she couldn't she 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:46.479 couldn't hold that anymore, she couldn't function. 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:51.760 Yeah. The other girl, you know, Sheila, it was like nothing. 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.840 Because she didn't feel. Yeah, she has no capability, no 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:58.919 feeling of love of what we talk about a lot, 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:02.240 which is that empathy putting herself in the parent's position. 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:05.159 Yeah, and it's very. 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:07.760 Common in teens who kill that one of them is 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:11.120 like that, it is, yeah, yeah, And you know, let's 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:13.920 go back into their lives and we can see how 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:18.000 that has an effect on it. Because Rachel talks about 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:21.360 having a good upbringing, you know, parents who loved her. 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:25.359 That's whereas Shila talks about not having that. 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:26.040 Right. 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:28.280 Yeah, that factors into it, for sure. 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:31.960 It's different wires and all these wires start to cross, 0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:35.080 and it's very rare that that happens, and it's sad 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:35.720 all around. 0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:38.960 Yeah, yeah, for sure, Like you said earlier, especially when 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:44.240 it's it's young kids, you know, young minds that are 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:47.639 doing these god awful things and hurting other young people 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:53.080 that it's just so heartbreaking. It goes back to mental 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:57.160 well being, you know, because there's something you know where 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:01.720 she's not one hundred percent Well that's awful, right, Yeah, she. 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:04.600 Had an eating disorder, she was she was depressed. Yeah, 0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:06.159 there was a lot of factors going on. 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:08.400 There, a lot of things happening when. 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:13.640 Her Bodi's found Skyler. Sheila even posts on Twitter, worst 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:15.000 day of my whole life. 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:15.879