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Speaker 1: A warning.

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Speaker 2: This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations about suicide

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Speaker 2: that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners. If

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Speaker 2: you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward to

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Speaker 2: the end of this episode to find out where help

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Speaker 2: is available.

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Speaker 1: I saw him from behind. He was like, he was so.

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Speaker 3: Stoic, sitting there in his suit. He was like, it's like,

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Speaker 3: I still remember.

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Speaker 1: It so well.

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Speaker 3: God, he just saw his body just kind of collapsing.

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Speaker 2: That's Evelyn Case. Byron Case's mother describing the moment her

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Speaker 2: son is found guilty of killing Anastasia Whipples Fugen lapsing.

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Speaker 1: And when they took him out of the room, you know,

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Speaker 1: it was horrible. My body's shaky, just the memory of it.

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Speaker 2: All, Evelyn says, from that moment on, her mission in

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Speaker 2: life is clear to prove Byron is innocent. I'm Leah Rothman.

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Speaker 2: This is the real killer. Episode seven, Bad, Better and Blank. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So show me some of the photos that you have

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Speaker 2: of Byron.

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Speaker 3: Oh, so many.

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Speaker 1: Photos, so many, so many chimneys.

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Speaker 3: Look at my little boy. We had a chimney sweep business.

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Speaker 3: Because you know, I'm from Germany and I always believe

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Speaker 3: chimney sweeps brought good luck, any.

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Speaker 1: Cute Halloween or no.

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Speaker 3: No, we were chimney sweeps who he had a little

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Speaker 3: outfit for him.

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Speaker 2: I meet with Evelyn at her home in Kansas City,

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Speaker 2: where she lived with her best friend and canine companion, Airbender.

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Speaker 1: This is cute to look at us. That's us. That's

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Speaker 1: how we traveled to the backpackers. Yes, we were backpackers.

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Speaker 1: Is that Dale and by that's Dale and Byron.

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Speaker 3: I think they were in Texas.

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Speaker 1: This was when we were divorced.

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Speaker 3: That wasn't his lover, but they were all friends because

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Speaker 3: we had a lot of gay friends. So that's what

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Speaker 3: they did to his room. And they had all the

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Speaker 3: legos and this is Byron's room.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was. Oh so they decorated Byron's room. They

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Speaker 1: did really they did good with him. I mean they

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Speaker 1: you know, he was loved.

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Speaker 2: Evelyn is warm and funny and quite the character, and

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Speaker 2: her eclectically decorated craftsman style house is a direct reflection

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Speaker 2: of that. It's full of lush plants, art, pottery, and

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Speaker 2: mementos from her many travels, as well as several photos

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Speaker 2: of the most important person in the world to her, Byron.

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Speaker 3: Well, these are not my favorites, but this is what

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Speaker 3: don't you love about these photos? Well, that's the goth

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Speaker 3: the look on his face like I'm tough for something

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know where this was in

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Speaker 3: the coffee shop, but he's got mescara on. And that

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Speaker 3: didn't bother me because there's a lot of musicians that do.

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Speaker 1: That, so that really didn't bother me.

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Speaker 3: Is this Byron when he moved to Saint Louis? Does

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Speaker 3: he look unhappy? Does he look like he would have

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Speaker 3: killed somebody? He left because of Kelly. He says, I've

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Speaker 3: got to get out of here, and he did, and

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Speaker 3: he was happy.

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Speaker 2: Evelyn and I talked for three hours about Byron's childhood,

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Speaker 2: her ex husband, Byron's father Dale, and of course the

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Speaker 2: events of October twenty second, nineteen ninety seven, the night

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Speaker 2: Anastasia was killed. But wait a minute, So he comes

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Speaker 2: home around what time.

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Speaker 1: Ten or ten?

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Speaker 3: I know Kelly had curfew at nine and he brought

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Speaker 3: her home. And then he came home right after that

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Speaker 3: and Justin brought him. Robert kept saying he saw Byron's cars. Well,

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Speaker 3: Byron's car was in the shop.

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Speaker 2: Evelyn is referring to Robert whitbolsfugen Anastasia's father. Remember, Bob

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Speaker 2: told Sergeant Gary Kilgore he saw Byron's car with the

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Speaker 2: morbid license plates and the caravan of cars going down

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Speaker 2: Truman Road the night of October twenty seconds.

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Speaker 3: Because when Byron came home that night, when this supposedly happened,

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Speaker 3: there was nothing different about him. I mean, I can

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Speaker 3: tell things. There was nothing different. He came home at

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Speaker 3: ten o'clock, give or take, and so maybe a few

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Speaker 3: minutes after and you know, goes to refrigerator, and then

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Speaker 3: he had two cats, and he had his room. There

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Speaker 3: were times that he would then spend the night over

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Speaker 3: at Justin's. They were playing video games and this and that.

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Speaker 3: But I knew where he was at, and his room

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Speaker 3: was always there when he came home. And then sometimes

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Speaker 3: he was gone for three days or something, and I go,

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Speaker 3: it's nice to see you, you know, But when do

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Speaker 3: you let go of your children? You have to let

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Speaker 3: them experience life. But you it's the sad part. You

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Speaker 3: can have the best childhood and then something like this happens.

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Speaker 3: You know, he was raised, non violent, non racist, non sexist.

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Speaker 3: Why would you want to. I mean the things that

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Speaker 3: Kelly came up with. Sure, maybe they were talking weird

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Speaker 3: stuff at times, but that doesn't mean you're going to

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Speaker 3: do something. You know, he was doing good things, always

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Speaker 3: doing good things for people.

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Speaker 1: Do nobody saw that. It's just always gotten, you know

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Speaker 1: what we were hippies or this or that. Everybody's something.

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Speaker 3: That doesn't mean you know, you know, devil worshippers or

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Speaker 3: whatever they came up with, that's not it. He loved,

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Speaker 3: he loved wearing black, and he had his trench coat

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Speaker 3: and his Doc Martin boots, and and then what he

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Speaker 3: did out there, I have no idea them boys, but

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Speaker 3: no killing somebody.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 2: So he comes home around ten, he goes into the kitchen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because we were watching the movies.

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Speaker 3: But he was happy, he was happy to be home,

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Speaker 3: greeted us, and everything was there was nothing tense or anything,

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Speaker 3: and so I just left it at that.

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Speaker 2: Did you notice anything odd about his appearance? Did he

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Speaker 2: looked like he had been crying or upset, or did

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Speaker 2: he have any boy.

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Speaker 1: I would have said something then, oh my goodness.

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Speaker 3: You know, if I spot something like this, then I

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Speaker 3: asked questions, But I had no questions to.

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Speaker 1: Ask no blood on him, No, hardly. Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: Then I would have freaked out for sure. So imagine

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Speaker 1: so he goes to his room. Yeah, did Byron go

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Speaker 1: back out that night?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 1: Would you have heard him?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Oh yeah. His bedroom was right next to me

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Speaker 3: and you can hear the doors, you know, it's the

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Speaker 3: old apartments.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no he did. Would you help with home?

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Speaker 3: And I mean Napoleon would be a witness on that too,

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Speaker 3: you know, he's there with me.

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Speaker 1: And did police ever talk to Napoleon? I don't think so.

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Speaker 2: Napoleon Perez was Evelyn's boyfriend at the time. They eventually married,

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Speaker 2: then later divorced, but today remain friends. After Byron mentioned

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Speaker 2: Napoleon being there that night, I looked through the case

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Speaker 2: file I was sent from the Jackson County Sheriff's Department

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Speaker 2: again and saw nothing that said Napoleon was ever interviewed

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Speaker 2: by law enforcement. I ask Evelyn if she was ever

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Speaker 2: interviewed Sergeant Kilgore, Huh did you have any interactions with

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Speaker 2: Sergeant Kilgrere?

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Speaker 1: Think so? I really don't think so so.

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Speaker 2: But the only documentation I have regarding Evelyn as an

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Speaker 2: interoffice memo dated May fifteenth, two thousand so that was

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Speaker 2: about four months before Kelly comes forward. The memo is

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Speaker 2: from Sergeant Kilgore, written to his superiors. Kil Gore says

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Speaker 2: he was contacted by Assistant Prosecutor Jeff Busher because Anastasia's dad, Bob,

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Speaker 2: wanted to review the homicide case file. Bob was unhappy

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Speaker 2: with how the investigation was being conducted by the Jackson

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Speaker 2: County Sheriff's Department, so Assistant Prosecutor Buscher was instructed to

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Speaker 2: review the file himself. Busher did, and afterwards said the

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Speaker 2: investigation up until that point had been conducted quote thoroughly

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Speaker 2: and appropriately. Busher did share with kil Gore that he

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Speaker 2: didn't believe Bob observed that caravan of cars the night

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Speaker 2: of the twenty second the way he described one suggestion

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Speaker 2: was made to kill Gore, though Busher thought Evelyn Case

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Speaker 2: should be contacted to quote determine if she could verify

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Speaker 2: the times mister Case was at her apartment the evening

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Speaker 2: of ten twenty two ninety seven and the early hours

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Speaker 2: of ten twenty three, ninety seven. I have no real

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Speaker 2: ports or memos that show Kilgore ever followed through with this. Okay,

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Speaker 2: back to the night of October twenty second. Evelyn says,

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Speaker 2: after she and Napoleon finished the movie, they go to bed.

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Speaker 2: Nothing else to report, really until the following morning.

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Speaker 3: The next morning, the phone rings and it's Justin and

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Speaker 3: he says, can I talk to Byron? I says, I said,

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Speaker 3: he's still asleep, And he says, could you wake him up?

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Speaker 3: And I said, okay, just a minute. So I got

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Speaker 3: Byron up, and this is what happened.

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Speaker 1: He told me.

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Speaker 3: He says, oh, Justin wanted me to go out to

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Speaker 3: breakfast with him. He said he couldn't sleep last night.

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Speaker 3: He wanted me to go down to breakfast and and

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Speaker 3: and he said.

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Speaker 1: No, I'll catch up with you later.

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Speaker 2: Within an hour or so of that call, Justin buys

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Speaker 2: a shotgun. Two days later, on October twenty fifth, Justin

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Speaker 2: has found dead, having taken his own life.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever known Byron to have a gun? No?

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Speaker 1: Have you ever known Byron to go hunting? No?

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Speaker 2: Did you ever know Dale, your ex husband, Byron's father,

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Speaker 2: to ever own any guns?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 1: Did he ever go hunting? No? Did he ever display

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Speaker 1: any guns on his wall?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 1: Have you ever known Byron to be violent? No? Never? Never.

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Speaker 1: He's like his dad. His dad do you know that man?

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Speaker 1: And I never argued? His father and I never argued.

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Speaker 2: Did you hear the rumors that Byron and Justin were lovers?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I heard that too, Yeah, they weren't stupid.

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Speaker 2: I wonder what Evelyn thought about Byron's account of that

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Speaker 2: evening that the last time he saw Anastasia was when

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Speaker 2: she got out of Dustin's car on Truman Road at

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Speaker 2: the I four thirty five possible? Did you believe him?

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Speaker 2: Did you know? I mean, as a mother, you know

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Speaker 2: when your kid is lying. What was the tailtale signs?

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Speaker 2: When Byron wasn't telling you the truth?

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Speaker 3: I don't remember him not being truthful very often in

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Speaker 3: his life. To be very honest, I don't think. I

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Speaker 3: really don't, unless I'm just I don't think he lied

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Speaker 3: to me. I can't, would you ever? I mean, because

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Speaker 3: people might think a mother would cover for their son. No,

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Speaker 3: I believe in the truth. Might have been my Catholic upbringing.

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Speaker 3: I don't go to church eater. I mean that dog.

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Speaker 3: I was cramped down my throat too, But no, I'm not.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't do that. No, And if he would have

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Speaker 3: done it, then everything would be different, because I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: have fought for twenty years. The way I was fighting

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Speaker 3: tooth and nail, tooth and nail. I got myself in

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Speaker 3: trouble at times, going up to the law school, Young KC.

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Speaker 3: Law School and plastering flyers all over the place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and just no, I would not be fighting like this.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 2: In the years following Byron's conviction, Evelyn posts free Byron

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Speaker 2: flyers at the local law school and around town. She

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Speaker 2: writes letters and talks to even chases down anyone who'd listen.

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Speaker 2: It is safe to say she was obsessed with clearing

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Speaker 2: her son's name. Around twenty ten, the Midwest Innocence Project

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Speaker 2: looks into Byron's case. Remember you heard about them in

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Speaker 2: season one. They represented Rodney Lincoln, but ultimately MIP passes

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Speaker 2: on taking Byron's case. After that, Evelyn redoubles her efforts.

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Speaker 2: She helps Byron petition Governor j. Nixon for an absolute pardon,

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Speaker 2: which is eventually denied. She goes to Washington, D C.

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Speaker 2: And addresses members of Congress. She meets one on one

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Speaker 2: with US Senator Claire mccaskell of Missouri. She shares with

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Speaker 2: people the book Byron wrote from prison, The Pariah Syntax

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Speaker 2: notes from an innocent man, as well as the Free

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Speaker 2: Byron website and Facebook group. Over time, she accumulates ten

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Speaker 2: bankers boxes of investigative documents, reports, transcripts, and audio recordings,

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Speaker 2: but she has no one to go through them.

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Speaker 1: Crickets. Then out of nowhere, I get this call, we

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Speaker 1: want to help you. Do you think I'm going to

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Speaker 1: say no, we don't want to.

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Speaker 6: I was plated.

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Speaker 1: I was elated.

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Speaker 5: My name is Ryan Russell.

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Speaker 2: Shortly after graduating from the University of Missouri Kansas City

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Speaker 2: Law School, Brian Russell, an Army vet, and two friends

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Speaker 2: formed the firm Meyer, Chord, Russell and Hurdott. And what

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Speaker 2: kind of law do you practice?

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Speaker 5: We do all personal injury, basically any type of case

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Speaker 5: where someone has been hurt by someone else doing something

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Speaker 5: wrong and trying to help them get money to make

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Speaker 5: up for what they had to go through.

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Speaker 2: Brian first hears about Byron's case in the summer of

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Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, about seventeen years after Byron was convicted.

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Speaker 5: When I was doing research on a completely unrelated matter

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Speaker 5: and just happened to stumble across his website. It was

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Speaker 5: freebyroncase dot Com and he had a lot of the

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Speaker 5: primary documents on there and reports and trial transcript and

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Speaker 5: so one afternoon I didn't have the impulse control to

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Speaker 5: ignore it and went down the rabbit hole and just

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Speaker 5: started reading all this stuff and doing my own research

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Speaker 5: on some of it. I saw that he didn't have

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Speaker 5: a lawyer, so I picked up the phone and just

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Speaker 5: called him and asked him if he was interested in

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Speaker 5: having a lawyer, and went out and met with him.

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Speaker 1: And what was that first meeting?

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Speaker 5: Like? It was a good meeting. I think before when

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Speaker 5: I signed him up, I wasn't even I wasn't one

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Speaker 5: hundred percent convinced that he was innocent. I knew that

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Speaker 5: he did not get a fair trial, but I wasn't

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Speaker 5: sure that he was innocent. And as I talked with

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Speaker 5: him more, you know, I was like, I don't I

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Speaker 5: don't see how this guy could have murdered somebody. Doing

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Speaker 5: injury work generally, you know, we don't get paid. We

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Speaker 5: get paid on a contingency fee. I mean, my clients

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Speaker 5: never pay me out of their own pocket, and they

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Speaker 5: only ever pay me if I get money for them.

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Speaker 5: This is very similar to that. You have to be

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Speaker 5: willing to put a lot of time, energy and money

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Speaker 5: into a case with, you know, a hope and a

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Speaker 5: prayer that it works out. And I wouldn't want to

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Speaker 5: do that if I wasn't firmly convinced that we had

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Speaker 5: at least a shot. So yeah, I asked him if

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Speaker 5: you did it? And because I didn't want to represent

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Speaker 5: someone that couldn't say no, I didn't do it.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people, though in prison, say that they're innocent.

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Speaker 2: A lot of them are, but a lot of them

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Speaker 2: are not.

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Speaker 5: I'm kind of this is a saying from the Army trust,

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Speaker 5: but verify, and that's how I've That's how I and

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Speaker 5: the rest of our team have approached this whole investigation

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Speaker 5: is how can we prove that Byron did this without

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Speaker 5: Byron's side of things, you know? Or how can we

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Speaker 5: because if it comes down to believing Byron or not, well,

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Speaker 5: a jury already heard Byron's story and they didn't believe them.

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Speaker 5: For me, it was more the asking him wasn't because

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Speaker 5: that's what matters improving his innocence. It was more just

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Speaker 5: from my own where you're really in it as partners

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Speaker 5: with your client, and I don't want to be partners

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Speaker 5: with someone I don't trust. However, our brains. Figure out,

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Speaker 5: we can trust somebody just the way he told me.

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Speaker 5: I trusted him.

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Speaker 2: So for Brian, the trust is there. Now it's time

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Speaker 2: to get to work. He reaches out to Evelyn, who

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Speaker 2: happily hands over the ten boxes of evidence she's collected.

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Speaker 5: I then had a moment of clarity of wait a minute,

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Speaker 5: I've never represented a criminal defendant, let alone got an

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Speaker 5: innocent person out of prison. But I'm confident that I'm

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Speaker 5: a hard worker and you know, reasonably intelligent. But Sean

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Speaker 5: O'Brien was one of my professors in law school, and

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Speaker 5: if he was one of my favorites, if not my

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Speaker 5: favorite professor. So after I had gotten all that stuff,

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Speaker 5: I called him up and said, hey, you know, are

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Speaker 5: you Is this something you could maybe use for one

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Speaker 5: of your innocence classes. Helped me go through some of

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Speaker 5: this stuff.

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Speaker 7: So I was going to be teaching this class in

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Speaker 7: the spring semester of twenty twenty. So when Brian talked

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Speaker 7: to me, I said, yes, I need a case for

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Speaker 7: my investigation class.

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Speaker 2: For those of you have listened to seasons one and

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Speaker 2: two of The Real Killer, you are already familiar with

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Speaker 2: Sean O'Brien. A quick reminder. He's a full time professor

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Speaker 2: at UMKC Law School. He was one of Rodney Lincoln's lawyers,

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Speaker 2: but he's probably best known for the landmark Supreme Court

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Speaker 2: case on innocence Sloop versus Di Lo.

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Speaker 7: I'm not an innocence project. I do not screen my

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Speaker 7: cases for guilt or innocence. I just the next interesting case.

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Speaker 7: If my caseload will allow it, I'll do it. And

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Speaker 7: I knew enough about this case to know that it

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Speaker 7: would be a really interesting case to use to teach

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Speaker 7: my investigation class. And Quinn and I, my daughter, teach

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Speaker 7: this class together. She's an investigator with a journalism background,

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Speaker 7: which is great.

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Speaker 2: Quinn O'Brien was also in our first season. She was

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Speaker 2: one of the investigators who worked on Rodney Lincoln's case.

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Speaker 2: Turns out Quinn was already familiar with Byron's case because

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Speaker 2: in twenty ten she spent some time looking into it

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Speaker 2: at the Midwest Innocence Project. Later that year, she left

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Speaker 2: MIP and Byron's case behind to pursue other endeavors.

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Speaker 8: There were things that I wanted to work on that

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Speaker 8: didn't involve innocence, like early release and parole projects. So

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Speaker 8: I decided to leave the project and hang my own shingle.

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Speaker 8: I can't take a case with me because I'm not

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Speaker 8: a lawyer. I'm just the investigator that can be really

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Speaker 8: frustrating sometimes. And I guess the case just languished until

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Speaker 8: I got a text from my dad it's like, hey,

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Speaker 8: you worked on the Byron.

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Speaker 5: Case case, right? Yes?

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Speaker 6: Why?

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Speaker 8: And I think I remember like looking at that text,

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Speaker 8: like texting back like yeah, and then getting in the

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Speaker 8: car and I was actually on seventy one. I remember

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Speaker 8: where I was when I got this phone call from

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Speaker 8: my old buddy Brian Russell. It's like, hey, Quinn, like

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Speaker 8: I hear that you were familiar with the Byron case

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Speaker 8: case and I wanted to pick your brain. I still

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Speaker 8: remember being on the freeway, holding onto the steering wheel,

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Speaker 8: being ready to cry, like yes, yes, you can pick

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Speaker 8: my brain, Like yes, I want to help you. I

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Speaker 8: don't care, I don't care how like what I will.

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Speaker 8: I will help you. You tell me what you need

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Speaker 8: from me, and I will help you. I have been wanting.

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Speaker 2: So Quinn, Sean and Brian are on board. Then one

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Speaker 2: more person joins the team, a brand new lawyer named

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Speaker 2: Nicole Gordon, who went to law school later in life.

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Speaker 2: Back in the spring of twenty twenty, Nicole is in

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Speaker 2: her second year of law school when she takes Sean

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Speaker 2: and Quinn's investigation class and learns about Byron's case. What

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Speaker 2: are some of your early thoughts or feelings about it?

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Speaker 9: And I wasn't convinced of his innocence right off the bat.

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Speaker 2: After finishing the investigation class, Nicole is the only student

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Speaker 2: who continues working with Brian and Quinn on the case

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Speaker 2: in Shawn's Wrongful Convictions Clinic.

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Speaker 9: That's when I really dived into the case and learned

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Speaker 9: more about it and became more and more convinced that

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Speaker 9: Byron's innocent.

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Speaker 2: The team is made up of Nicole, Quinn, Sean, and Brian.

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Speaker 2: Each has their marching orders and they're ready to go

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Speaker 2: to war.

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Speaker 1: For the record.

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Speaker 2: When I decided to take on this story for the

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Speaker 2: third season of the podcast, I told Byron's legal team,

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Speaker 2: especially Sean and Quinn, whom I've worked with before, I

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Speaker 2: am treating this case like any other. If I find

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Speaker 2: something that points to Byron's guilt, I am not going

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Speaker 2: to bury it. My only allegiance is to the true.

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Speaker 2: If you had to sum up the investigation in a word.

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Speaker 1: Or sloppy.

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Speaker 5: Oh wait, I should have let you finish.

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Speaker 1: That's okay, the investigation was sloppy.

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Speaker 5: If I had to summarize the trial in one word,

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Speaker 5: it would be fast.

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Speaker 2: Right out of the gate. Attorney Brian Russell has some

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Speaker 2: strong feelings about the way Byron's case was handled well.

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Speaker 5: So when I was first digging into everything, I kept

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Speaker 5: waiting for there to be more. I was just like,

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Speaker 5: surely they didn't convict him based on Kelly's clear fabrication

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Speaker 5: that doesn't even line up with the other evidence.

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Speaker 2: Is there any physical evidence tying Byron case to the

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Speaker 2: murder of Anastasia Whippolsfugen.

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Speaker 5: There is no physical evidence tying Byron case to the

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Speaker 5: murder or the death of Anastasia Whipples Fugen. Now the

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Speaker 5: only evidence of his involvement is Kelly Moffett.

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Speaker 2: Examining everything about Kelly Moffatt is one of the first

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Speaker 2: things Brian and the team set out to do. They

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Speaker 2: dissect her original story, the story she told at trial,

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Speaker 2: her character, and her possible motivations for coming forward almost

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Speaker 2: three years after Anastasia's murder, and in no time they

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Speaker 2: make a discovery. It's related to something Kelly said under

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Speaker 2: oath during her deposition about a month before trial. During

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Speaker 2: that deposition, Kelly is asked, quote, do you have any

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Speaker 2: prior felony or misdemeanor convictions from state or federal court.

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Speaker 2: Kelly answers no. Then later she says, quote, I've never

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Speaker 2: been in trouble with the police. Nicole says her research

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Speaker 2: turns up something to the contrary.

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Speaker 9: I think is the fact that Kelly had been arrested

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Speaker 9: and was on probation when she testified, and that the

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Speaker 9: prosecution didn't disclose that.

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Speaker 2: It has to do with an incident that happened when

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Speaker 2: Kelly was seventeen.

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Speaker 9: Okay, So in two thousand, Kelly was driving back from Columbia, Missouri,

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Speaker 9: with a friend. It was about ten am in the morning.

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Speaker 9: They were speeding down I seventy and they had been

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Speaker 9: drinking or had a peach vove could bottle in the car.

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Speaker 9: Peach knops a lot of the two and was being

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Speaker 9: pulled over by a highway trooper. And as they were

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Speaker 9: being pulled over, Kelly throws the bottle out the window

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Speaker 9: because they're underage. Trooper sees it. He arrests Kelly and

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Speaker 9: she goes to jail. Months later, she doesn't show up

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Speaker 9: for her court date and a warrant is issued for

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Speaker 9: her arrest. And throughout two thousand she has this pending

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Speaker 9: warrant until March of two thousand and one, something happens,

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Speaker 9: we don't know what that is, and she is brought

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Speaker 9: in on that warrant is executed and she's brought in

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Speaker 9: on the warrant in Cooper County. Now Kelly lives in

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Speaker 9: a different state. She lives in Kansas, and this is

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Speaker 9: Cooper County, Missouri.

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Speaker 2: Eventually, Kelly pleads guilty to a misdemeanor littering charge. She's

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Speaker 2: given two years probation and forty eight hours of shock

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Speaker 2: time in the county jail. Shock time is meant to

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Speaker 2: do just that shock you into realizing you will be

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Speaker 2: spending a lot more time in jail if you mess

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Speaker 2: up again. Attorney Sean O'Brien says the issue is not

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Speaker 2: only that Kelly lied during her deposition, it's that prosecutors

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Speaker 2: didn't disclose her criminal record to Byron's trial attorney Horton.

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Speaker 7: Lance, And she's asked us in her deposition, have you

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Speaker 7: ever been convicted of a crime? And she says no,

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Speaker 7: I've never even been in trouble before. And she's on

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Speaker 7: probation as she's saying that, right, and so that was

439
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 7: a lot.

440
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 2: Do you think prosecutors knew about this and withheld that?

441
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 1: Do they know?

442
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 7: I don't know if they knew, they should have known.

443
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 7: Under the law, the prosecutor is obliged to go out

444
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 7: and find information that is in the possession of any

445
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 7: investigative agency, and in Missouri in particular, the prosecutor has

446
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 7: peculiar access to criminal records. You know, they can get

447
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 7: into the highway patrol computer. They would they could have

448
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 7: found this had they looked for it. But in Horton

449
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 7: Lance's request for discovery, he specifically asked do any of

450
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 7: your witnesses have criminal convictions? And the prosecuting attorney in

451
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:56,959
Speaker 7: their written response says no, they do not. So that

452
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 7: is a Brady violation.

453
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: I think it's not a quick reminder.

454
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 2: A Brady violation comes from the landmark Supreme Court case

455
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 2: Brady v. Maryland, which states that the prosecution must turn

456
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 2: over any evidence that could be favorable to a defendant.

457
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 2: But besides the Brady violation, Byron's team says there's a

458
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 2: second part to this, and it has to do with

459
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 2: the timeline of it all. They say, Kelly's arrest on

460
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 2: this littering charge, the warrant being issued and served, her

461
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 2: eventual guilty plea, and probation, and how it all relates

462
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 2: to Byron's case is at the very least interesting. I

463
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 2: put in a foyer request, or in Missouri it's called

464
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 2: a Sunshine law request to where this arrest took place,

465
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 2: the town of Boonville in Cooper County, Missouri. I email

466
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 2: back and forth with a circuit clerk a couple of times,

467
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 2: who says she can't find the case file, but attached

468
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 2: the docket sheet, which is basically a list of the

469
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 2: important dates and events in the case. According to the

470
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: docket sheet, Kelly is arrested on this misdemeanor littering charge

471
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: on April fifteenth, two thousand. It seems she doesn't show

472
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 2: up for the arraignment on June sixth, so on June

473
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 2: twenty first, a warrant is issued. Now three months later,

474
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: on September nineteenth, Kelly comes forward to say Byron killed Anastasia.

475
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 2: On December fifth, the tape recorder is installed at Kelly's parents' house,

476
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 2: in the hopes Kelly will get a recorded confession out

477
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 2: of Byron. Then about three months later, on March fourteenth,

478
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 2: two thousand and one, the warrant in the littering case

479
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: is served and an arraignment is scheduled. On April third,

480
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: two thousand and one, Kelly enters a guilty plea. She

481
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 2: is given two years probation and forty eight hours shock

482
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: time in jail. Then two months later, on June fifth,

483
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: two thousand and one, Kelly records the call with Byron,

484
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 2: which will become the tacit admission. So is the timing

485
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: of Kelly's arrest, cooperation with investigators, guilty plea, and recorded

486
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 2: call with Byron a coincidence. Investigator Quinn O'Brien wonders if

487
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: there might have been something bigger going on behind the scenes.

488
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 8: We have been searching so many records to try to

489
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 8: find where Kelly was arrested and for what to be

490
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 8: picked up on a warrant suggests that the police stopped

491
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 8: her or had some kind of contact with her, or

492
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 8: were told to go pick her up for some reason,

493
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 8: to arrest her and take her back down to Boonville.

494
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 8: We can't find those records. Lots of rumors from different witnesses,

495
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 8: from different friends of Byron's and Kelly's, who say, hey,

496
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 8: we think she was picked up on major drug charges

497
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 8: up north, maybe in plattin Platte or Clay County. Other

498
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 8: people say that she was picked up and she made

499
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 8: a deal with the prosecution to get out of some

500
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 8: major drug trafficking charges. I don't know if any of

501
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 8: that's true. The only thing that we have documented is

502
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 8: that Kelly was taken back down to Boonville. She did

503
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 8: do some shock time in the jail, and then it's

504
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 8: shortly after that that Kelly is able to get Byron

505
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 8: on the phone.

506
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 2: While in Missouri, I go in person to Clay County

507
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: to submit my record's request and am told all they

508
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 2: have is on case net, Missouri's online database of court records.

509
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: Of course, I had already looked there, so I asked

510
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: the records clerk if there might be more that hasn't

511
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 2: been uploaded to case net.

512
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: She says no.

513
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: I send an email records request to Platte County and

514
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: they respond saying they don't have any criminal records or

515
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 2: reports for Kelly, so there may be no there there,

516
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 2: or maybe because Kelly was a minor at the time.

517
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 2: Some of those records are sealed. Here's Nicole again, not

518
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 2: even Jackson kindivisory.

519
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: So you have to wonder what happened to.

520
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 9: For that warrant to be executed and for Kelly to

521
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 9: be picked up on that warrant at that time in

522
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 9: a different state, different counting. You know, something happened.

523
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: We don't know.

524
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 9: Does she turn herself in, does she get into some trouble,

525
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 9: There's just nothing. Her life was pretty chaotic right now

526
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 9: during this time, and I do believe that she could

527
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 9: have gotten herself into a situation where she was desperate,

528
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 9: vulnerable and offered this information to get herself out of trouble.

529
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 9: We don't know that for sure, but the timeline makes sense,

530
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 9: from when she was picked up to when she wanted

531
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 9: to rehab to when she started cooperating with investigators, when

532
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 9: she implicated Byron. Something happened and we just don't know

533
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 9: what that is. And Bob is putting pressure on prosecutors

534
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 9: right now. I mean, he's gotten the mayor involved. He's

535
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 9: put a lot of pressure on the people involved in

536
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 9: this case, and they want to they want to resolve

537
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 9: it and get Bob off their back.

538
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 2: I do believe Nicole is, of course referring to Bob,

539
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 2: Anastasia's father. So these are some serious allegations, and I

540
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 2: obviously want to ask Kelly about them and so much more.

541
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: The last I heard from her she said she would

542
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: briefly talk with me, So I write her again to

543
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 2: try and set that up. Here's what she writes back

544
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 2: in part quote, I'm sorry for the back and forth,

545
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 2: but there's no need for me to talk to you.

546
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: I stand by my testimony and Byron is guilty. There's

547
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: also more evidence now than ever before that he's guilty,

548
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: So him participating in a podcast is ridiculous. He knows

549
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 2: he's guilty and that he's wasting everyone's time.

550
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: I truly don't think.

551
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 2: He has a capacity to feel bad or guilty for

552
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 2: murdering Anastasia. He was all about ein Rand and Fountainhead.

553
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 2: Some people matter, some people don't. To him, Anastasia didn't matter,

554
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 2: and murdering her was just a mistake he made that

555
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 2: shouldn't quote destroy his entire life. Please use your platform

556
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: to help someone who is truly innocent. You are barking

557
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 2: up the wrong tree just because Byron can be superficially

558
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 2: charming and right decently. Doesn't make him some misunderstood intellectual

559
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,719
Speaker 2: who was wrongfully convicted. He's always been full of crap,

560
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 2: and eventually his mask will fall and you'll see the

561
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: real Hymn. There's a reason he was pursuing me when

562
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,719
Speaker 2: I was in middle school and he was eighteen. No

563
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 2: one his own age had much respect for him or

564
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 2: believed any of his stories. Kelly clearly stands by her testimony,

565
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 2: and her resolve around Byron's guilt seems to be just

566
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 2: as strong as it was more than twenty years ago.

567
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: I can't discount what she's saying, so all I can

568
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 2: do is keep asking questions. Even though it seems Kelly

569
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 2: doesn't want to talk, I Am going to try again.

570
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 2: So Byron's legal team says, at a minimum, they have

571
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 2: identified a Brady violation. They assert prosecutors withheld Kelly's criminal

572
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: record from Byron's defense lawyer at the time of the trial,

573
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 2: which could point to an unfair trial. Yes, but does

574
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 2: that mean Byron is innocent? No, not necessarily without any

575
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 2: real proof that some sort of quid pro quo took place.

576
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 2: It's just pure speculation, right, Byron's attorneys firmly believed that

577
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 2: there were really only two things that got him convicted,

578
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 2: Kelly's testimony and the June fifth recorded call, otherwise known

579
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 2: as the Tacit admission. I have wondered why prosecutors even

580
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 2: felt the need to set up the recorder to try

581
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: to get Byron on tape confessing when they already had

582
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: Kelly saying she watched Byron with her own eyes kill Anastasia.

583
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 2: Why not just arrest him as soon as she came forward.

584
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 2: Here's Sean again.

585
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 7: I've talked to the assistant prosecutor, one of the assistant

586
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 7: prosecutors who was on this case. They didn't think that

587
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 7: Kelly's credibility was sufficient to base a charge on her

588
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 7: word alone. They were not going to file based on

589
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 7: anything that Kelly said unless they could somehow corroborate it.

590
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 7: And so they had discussions in the office about how

591
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 7: they would do that, and the decision was made in

592
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 7: September of two thousand to put the recording device on

593
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,919
Speaker 7: Kelly's phone. Kelly then is supposed to try to call

594
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 7: Byron and get admissions. There isn't really a call that

595
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 7: is recorded until that June fifth of two thousand and one,

596
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 7: and that's the alleged tacit admission.

597
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: Now, Kelly that June fifth call was effective at trial.

598
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 2: Here's Brian again.

599
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 5: On June fifth, two thousand and one, at approximately eleven

600
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,280
Speaker 5: thirty at night, Kelly finally makes contact. Well, she says,

601
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 5: finally makes contact with Byron, because she claims that she

602
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 5: had tried to call him several times before. If she did,

603
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 5: she did not preserve any of those recordings or any

604
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 5: recordings of her leaving messages, or if they did preserve those,

605
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 5: they weren't handed over. Regardless, that's her story that she

606
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 5: had been trying to call him over and over and

607
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 5: he wouldn't call her back. Then one night, according to

608
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 5: Sergeant Kilgore's report, out of the Blue, Kelly just happens

609
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 5: to make contact with Byron. Byron also just happened to

610
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 5: have one hundred and two degree fever because he had

611
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,919
Speaker 5: strep throat. And we know he had strep throat because

612
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 5: the next day, before he knew any of this was

613
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 5: going on, he went to the doctor and was diagnosed

614
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 5: with strep throat. So anyway, Kelly calls him at eleven thirty.

615
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 5: She sounds scared. She sounds confused, and she says, I

616
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 5: don't understand, Byron, why did you kill Anastasia. If you

617
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 5: could just tell me why you did that, I might

618
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 5: be able to make sense of this whole thing. And

619
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 5: the recording quality is very poor and I don't know

620
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 5: if that was operator error or the equipment error, but

621
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 5: it's very hard to hear Byron and what he's saying.

622
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 6: Why, of course we should Byron says we shouldn't talk

623
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 6: about this, and then Kelly says, of course.

624
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 5: She says, what do you mean, and then he says,

625
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 5: probably because we shouldn't talk about this, and Kelly says,

626
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 5: of course we should.

627
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 2: But Brian says he almost falls out of his chair

628
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 2: one day when he decides to listen to the tape again.

629
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 5: And I pulled up the audio, and I didn't bother

630
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 5: to pull up the transcript because I was typing at

631
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 5: the same time, and I had a kind of a

632
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 5: high high quality speaker on my computer, and I was

633
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 5: just listening along and kind of only half paying attention.

634
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 5: And then I heard him say, after Kelly's rant, he goes,

635
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 5: we should talk about this as clear as day, and

636
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 5: I was like, wait, what did he really just say

637
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 5: we should talk about this, and I must have listened

638
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 5: to it fifteen times. It was it was like a

639
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 5: lightning bolt or something. It was great, it was it

640
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 5: was crazy.

641
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 2: Attorney Brian Russell believes he has just made a potentially

642
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: huge discovery when he listens to the June fifth recorded

643
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 2: phone call. He says he can now clearly hear Byron

644
00:38:54,000 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 2: say we should talk about this, not we shouldn't, like

645
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 2: what was asserted at trial. So where did this version

646
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 2: of the call come from?

647
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 5: There's well, so I had a digital recording that I

648
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 5: had gotten from the family's website and then in his file,

649
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,240
Speaker 5: in Byron's file, when I had gathered all those boxes

650
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 5: up were digital files that were produced in twenty eleven

651
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 5: and twenty sixteen from the Jackson County Sheriff's Department. That's

652
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 5: the one I was listening to. The one. The audio

653
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 5: that I had gotten from the website was low quality,

654
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 5: hard to hear, and it does sound like maybe he

655
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 5: says shouldn't, especially if you're reading the transcript while you're

656
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 5: listening to that.

657
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 2: Here's Attorney Sean O'Brien.

658
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 7: And the very next meeting we had, Brian comes in

659
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,720
Speaker 7: and says, you guys need to listen to this without

660
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 7: the transcript, and we played it and by golly, Byron says,

661
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 7: we should talk about this and it makes a lot

662
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 7: more sense.

663
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: Okay, enough of them talking about it. I'm going to

664
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: play both versions for you.

665
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: First.

666
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 2: Here's some of the lesser quality one.

667
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 4: Justin said for no reason, she said, for no reason.

668
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 4: It's just all fucked up. And for some reason they're

669
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 4: talking to me because you won't talk. That's I'm fucked

670
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 4: and it makes me look horrible because everybody already knows

671
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 4: that I'm a fucking crackhead, and I'm a coke head.

672
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 4: Then I'm an alcoholic and I don't remember shit, and

673
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 4: if I try to talk them, nothing's gonna add up.

674
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 4: So I mean, if you could seriously explain to me

675
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 4: as to why you actually felt the need to show her,

676
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 4: then that would really help me feel better about the

677
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 4: whole fucking thing. I mean, there's seriously any reason to

678
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 4: all this? Why of course we should?

679
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 2: You mean, do you hear, shouldn't or should? Okay, now

680
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,720
Speaker 2: here's the one that they say is the better quality version.

681
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 2: I'm going to start it a little bit later into

682
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 2: the call.

683
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 4: I mean, if you could seriously, explain to me as

684
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 4: to why you actually felt the need to call her.

685
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 4: Then that would really help me feel better about the

686
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 4: whole fucking thing. I mean, seriously, any reason to all this?

687
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: Talk about this?

688
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,280
Speaker 4: Why of course we should?

689
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 7: I think I need to talk to you.

690
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 2: You mean, what do you hear this time? Should or shouldn't?

691
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 2: Here's Sean again.

692
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 7: And it makes a lot more sense because when Byron

693
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 7: says we should talk about this, then Kelly says why,

694
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 7: and then Byron responds, no, I said we should talk

695
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 7: about this. That's the inflection in the transcript, and then

696
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 7: they go on and arrange. To me, that makes a

697
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 7: lot more sense.

698
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 2: I asked Sean how there could be two different versions

699
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 2: of the tape. He says, they soon learn there are

700
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 2: actually three.

701
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,439
Speaker 7: So we asked the Sheriff's department if we go view

702
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 7: the evidence, and they let us. We went into a

703
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 7: big room that had a huge table and all of

704
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 7: the evidence was laid out on the table, and one

705
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,399
Speaker 7: of the envelopes had three audio tapes in it, all

706
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 7: of them dated June fifth, twenty, two thousand and one.

707
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 7: So we opened up those and listened to all three,

708
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 7: and one did sound better than the other, and then

709
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 7: there's a third one that there was no sound on

710
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,359
Speaker 7: at all. Now, I can't tell you how there came

711
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,919
Speaker 7: to be two copies of the tape, but I can

712
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 7: tell you that Teresa Crayon, in a hearing before the trial,

713
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 7: told Judge Atwell that they had sent the tape off

714
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 7: to a laboratory in Springfield that cleans up audio. The

715
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 7: expert said, I'm sorry, we can't help you, but there

716
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 7: are two tapes in the Sheriff's possession, and I think

717
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 7: one of those tapes must be the one that came

718
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 7: back from the lab. I don't know, they don't know,

719
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 7: I don't know how their copy was made.

720
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 2: But quick reminder that Teresa Craon was the lead prosecutor

721
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: at trial.

722
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 5: Here's Brian and again this just goes back to the

723
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 5: quality of this investigation, the practices and procedures of the

724
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 5: Jackson County Sheriff's Department at the time. Is just how

725
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 5: are there three copies without there being a chain of

726
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 5: custody that says I removed the tape, I made a

727
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 5: copy of the tape. Here is the tape. You know,

728
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 5: That's what's so important, and that's what they teach you

729
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 5: a lot in law school and evidence class is before

730
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 5: you play something for a jury, you have to be

731
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 5: able to say, this is what I'm telling you it is,

732
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 5: and this is how I know what it is, and

733
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 5: instead the chain of custody for the tape in this

734
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 5: is Kelly Moffatt had a recording device in her home

735
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 5: for six months. Her training on it was push record.

736
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 5: She made a recording in the middle of the night,

737
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 5: somehow had exclusive custody of the tape for twelve hours

738
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 5: until Sergeant Kilgore picked it up from Kelly's mom, debim offit,

739
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 5: and then played it for the prosecutor's office.

740
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 2: Is there any evidence that suggests that the prosecutors had

741
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 2: a good version or a better version of the tape

742
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 2: and the poorer version of the tape, and they chose

743
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 2: to use the poorer version holding the better version back.

744
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 5: There's no. We don't have any direct evidence that they

745
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 5: intentionally withheld the better copy versus whatever was played at trial.

746
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,399
Speaker 2: We do know that, Brian says. The question is not

747
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 2: only about which tape was used in court, It's also

748
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 2: about the role the transcript played in the jury's minds.

749
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,720
Speaker 5: Prick your brain if you listen to the lower quality version.

750
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 5: While you're reading the transcript, you can still hear shouldn't

751
00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 5: or it becomes more ambiguous. And we're still trying to

752
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 5: figure this out and how to unravel this. I remember

753
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 5: I was just sitting on the couch one day with

754
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 5: my kids and one of my sons was watching YouTube

755
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 5: and a video came up with a bunch of with

756
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 5: a soccer chant, and there were seven or eight different

757
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 5: phrases that you could read while you listened to the

758
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 5: soccer chant, and the soccer chant didn't change. It was

759
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 5: the same thing over and over. But everything that you read,

760
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,839
Speaker 5: you would hear while you're listening to it. And I

761
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:35,839
Speaker 5: was like, that's that's what happened. That's if you give

762
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 5: somebody what you want them to hear and then have

763
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 5: them listen to something that's hard to understand, they're going

764
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 5: to hear what they're reading. And then doing more research

765
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 5: on it, we kind of we figured out that there

766
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 5: was this thing called the McGirk effect, and where when

767
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 5: you're seeing some visual cue but listening to something that's

768
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 5: hard to understand, your brain sent sizes that and then

769
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 5: you hear what you're seeing.

770
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: The McGirk effect is fascinating. The definition is quite involved,

771
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 2: but basically, if a person is getting poor quality information

772
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:19,439
Speaker 2: through listening but good quality information through seeing, they may

773
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: be more likely to experience the McGirk effect, meaning what

774
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:27,240
Speaker 2: they see is what they hear. The McGirk effect seems

775
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 2: to be mostly referring to watching someone say something, but

776
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: it can apply to reading the written word too. There

777
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 2: are a lot of interesting examples of the McGirk effect online.

778
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 2: I'm going to post some of them on TikTok at

779
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 2: TRK podcast. Do you think there's any chance that prosecutors

780
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,240
Speaker 2: thought they heard shouldn't?

781
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 5: Of course there's a chance, and I wasn't there for

782
00:47:55,800 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 5: them listening to the tape, And I think that's what's

783
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 5: important in any investigation, is to make sure you're checking

784
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 5: your own biases as much as possible. The best case

785
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 5: scenario is they heard what they wanted to hear, rather

786
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 5: than fabricating a false transcript. It's just very strange that

787
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 5: all the mistakes on the transcript happened to incriminate Byron.

788
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 2: Do you know who typed up the transcript?

789
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 5: We don't know one hundred percent who typed up the transcript,

790
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 5: but Sergeant Kilgore signed and initialed the transcript.

791
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 7: Here's Sean again spont in the transcript that the prosecution

792
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 7: used a trial. Byron responded, we shouldn't talk about this,

793
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 7: and then Kelly says what and he said no, I

794
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 7: said we shouldn't talk about this. That's what the transcript said.

795
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 7: And so that's really the heart and soul of the

796
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 7: alleged tacit admission is not exactly a denial, but it's

797
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 7: a refusal to talk it and they arranged to meet

798
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 7: in Loose Park. He gives her directions and that's it.

799
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 7: But the prosecution says that was Byron changing the subject.

800
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,839
Speaker 7: That's how they played it at the trial, and that's

801
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 7: what they argued to the jury. Is the meaning of that.

802
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 2: But even with all of this, I asked Brian, how

803
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 2: big of a difference does it really make if Byron

804
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 2: said shouldn't or should playing devil's advocate for one second,

805
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,479
Speaker 2: if this were the first time that Kelly ever said

806
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 2: anything as inflammatory or asked the question why did you

807
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 2: have to kill her? Wouldn't you think that hearing that

808
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 2: sort of accusation for the first time would potentially get

809
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 2: him to answer differently than we should talk about this.

810
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 5: I think that that is true. I think it makes

811
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 5: sense if you don't know the history of Byron and

812
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 5: Kelly's relationship. I think that in the context of Byron

813
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 5: and Kelly's relationship, his reactions make sense because the last

814
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 5: time they talked on the phone and got in an argument,

815
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 5: she called the police and said he was suicidal. And

816
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:17,959
Speaker 5: so I think that Byron's caution. I think we would

817
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 5: all expect that if someone accused us of murder, we

818
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 5: would say, what are you talking about? No, I didn't

819
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 5: do that.

820
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 1: You know I didn't do that.

821
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 5: But when you're dealing with someone that is emotionally volatile

822
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 5: and unpredictable, he's treating her like a cornered animal or something.

823
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 5: She sounds scared. She goes from scared to angry to

824
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 5: begging all through that phone call. And I think Byron

825
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 5: was being cautious because not because he didn't want to

826
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 5: incriminate himself. He's being cautious for a lot of reasons.

827
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 5: He has an attorney that told him don't talk about

828
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 5: this with anyone, or they can use your statements against you.

829
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 5: Even if you say I didn't do it, they could

830
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,280
Speaker 5: still use that against him. And he's being cautious because

831
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 5: of who Kelly is and the history of their relationship,

832
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 5: he doesn't want to provoke her. And if she really

833
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 5: does think in Byron's mind, is she thinks I killed her, well,

834
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 5: then I need to diffuse this situation, or else she

835
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 5: might go to the police and say some lie that

836
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 5: gets me in trouble. And that is all assuming that

837
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 5: he even heard her allegations or understood them as allegations

838
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 5: in the first place. For all we know, Byron had

839
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 5: the phone away from his ear while she's going on

840
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 5: this minute and a half rant asking him these questions.

841
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,399
Speaker 5: This very well could have been why did you let

842
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 5: her get out of the car? Or why did you

843
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 5: let justin drive off? But with the poor quality of

844
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 5: the connection, I think it makes more sense. And the

845
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 5: bottom line is the jury never really heard any of

846
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 5: this stuff. They knew about the They knew a lot

847
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:14,760
Speaker 5: of these facts in terms of Kelly claiming that Byron

848
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,720
Speaker 5: was suicidal when he wasn't, and all of those things,

849
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 5: but it was never argued to them during closing that look,

850
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 5: all of this makes sense in the context of their relationship,

851
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 5: but that also happened because the state put forth a

852
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 5: false transcript where he says we shouldn't talk about this.

853
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 5: It sounds like he's trying to dodge the topic of conversation,

854
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 5: not diffuse it. Calm it down, and figure out, why

855
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 5: are you accusing me of this?

856
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 2: I asked Byron about the June fifth tape. He says

857
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,240
Speaker 2: he never actually heard it until it was played at trial.

858
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,800
Speaker 2: He's only read the transcript or What was your reaction

859
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 2: to reading we shouldn't talk about this?

860
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 10: My response to that whole thing, the tape in general,

861
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,839
Speaker 10: it was kind of like I just sort of like

862
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 10: accepted what was there because I didn't really have a

863
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 10: strong memory of it other than remembering it taking place,

864
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 10: and so I kind of was willing to accept, like,

865
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 10: well anything, you know, we could have said anything that night,

866
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 10: I don't remember it.

867
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 1: Not to say that I would be capable of saying anything.

868
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 10: But just like, there's not a whole lot that would

869
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 10: have been on that tape necessarily that would have surprised me.

870
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,399
Speaker 10: I guess I don't know how to really explain that,

871
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 10: but like, the whole situation was bizarre being in the

872
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 10: situation that I was in, and I've compared it years

873
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 10: since to being like very much like a short story

874
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 10: by Kafka because it just kind of it defied logic

875
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 10: in so many places, and it seemed so counterintuitive at

876
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 10: so many points.

877
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 2: I ask Byron what even thinks about there being a

878
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 2: cleaner version of the call?

879
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 5: Now?

880
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 11: I haven't heard this recording, but I've talked now with

881
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 11: five or six people who have, and every single one

882
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 11: of them has said that they here should.

883
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 2: So when you heard that there is something that can

884
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:35,800
Speaker 2: potentially make the test admission non void, you think and feel.

885
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 1: Skeptical.

886
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 2: Byron was first willing to accept that he said shouldn't.

887
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 2: Then once he learns he may have actually said should,

888
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:49,879
Speaker 2: he accepts that too.

889
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 1: Why what does that mean?

890
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 2: It still doesn't answer why Byron didn't just deny killing

891
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 2: Anastasia altogether on that call with Kelly. Trust me, we

892
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:03,919
Speaker 2: are not even close to being done with the June

893
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 2: fifth call, the should or shouldn't tapes and transcript. I

894
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 2: of course want to know what Prosecutor Teresa Crayon thinks

895
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 2: about the cleaner version of the June fifth call the transcript.

896
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 2: Why Kelly's littering charge and probation status allegedly weren't disclosed

897
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 2: to Byron's defense attorney and whether or not Kelly may

898
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 2: have had some other legal troubles around the time she

899
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 2: came forward and recorded that June fifth call. I email

900
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 2: her office asking if I can send a list of questions.

901
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 2: They say yes, but that probably Miss Crayon's only response

902
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 2: will be the statement they've already sent, which is that

903
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,359
Speaker 2: it wouldn't be appropriate for her to comment until all

904
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:48,319
Speaker 2: litigation in the matter is complete.

905
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: I haven't heard back.

906
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,240
Speaker 2: As Byron's legal team presses on, they say there's someone

907
00:55:55,400 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 2: investigators overlooked, someone They're spending a lot of time looking into.

908
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 7: I think the suspicious circumstances around his knowledge of the

909
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 7: crime scene before he was told anything. He knew things

910
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 7: that he shouldn't have known. He knew where the body

911
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 7: had been found and when he shouldn't have known that.

912
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 7: In terms of our thinking, he has not been ruled

913
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 7: out as a suspect.

914
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 1: Next time on the real killer.

915
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,760
Speaker 8: When they ask if he keeps guns in the house,

916
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 8: he says, I don't keep guns in the house. The

917
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:36,760
Speaker 8: next question the deputy should have asked him was, Okay,

918
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:38,240
Speaker 8: where do you keep your guns?

919
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 2: Byron's legal team thinks they may have uncovered a new

920
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 2: potential suspect or two.

921
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 5: Anastasia's family had said at the time that if she

922
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 5: called for a ride, she would have called him. He

923
00:56:51,760 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 5: changed his phone number the day after her body was found.

924
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 2: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely

925
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 2: those of the individuals participating in the podcast. If you

926
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 2: or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a crisis,

927
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 2: please no help is available. Call or text nine to

928
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 2: eight eight, or chat online at the Suicide and Crisis

929
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 2: Lifelines website at nine eight eight lifeline dot org. To

930
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 2: see photos, maps and documents related to this season's story,

931
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 2: follow The Real Killer podcast on Instagram and at TRK

932
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 2: podcast on TikTok. The Real Killer is a production of

933
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 2: AYR Media and iHeartMedia, hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive

934
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 2: producers Leah Rothman and Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Written

935
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 2: by Leah Rothman, editing and sound design by Cameron Taggi,

936
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 2: mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi, Production coordinator Andy Levine,

937
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 2: Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam studio engineer Graham Gibson, Legal counsel

938
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 2: for AYR Media. Gianni Douglas, executive producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard,