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Speaker 1: Welcome to Brief Recess.

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Speaker 2: I'm Michael Foot, I'm Melissa Albranch.

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Speaker 1: Today we're going to be talking about being baby crazy,

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Speaker 1: the woman who sent eighteen hundred lemons to her ex boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: how messed up our healthcare system is, especially in light

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Speaker 1: of the Met Gala and Jeff Bezos and all the

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Speaker 1: celebrities who went. We're going to talk about Tucker Carlson's

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Speaker 1: bucket of wigs. We interviewed doctor Rebecca Tuvell about transracialism,

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Speaker 1: which was a little bit wild for me. And we're

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Speaker 1: going to answer all your burning questions for my DMS.

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Speaker 1: So stick around. I've got a freaky, deeky, wicked and

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Speaker 1: wild letter that you sent me, so you better sit

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Speaker 1: your ass down. You answer the phone with me like

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Speaker 1: I've called to you when you were driving with your mother, And.

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Speaker 2: I always tell people to be careful about what they're saying.

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Speaker 1: You didn't even say hello.

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Speaker 2: I never do. I'm like, hey, my mom's in the

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Speaker 2: car because because I mean because usually like you'll say

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Speaker 2: something like yob and then you know, and then my

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Speaker 2: mom will always say something she was just like yes,

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Speaker 2: I mean they're good.

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Speaker 1: I love it because I really do. Only ever call

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Speaker 1: you when you're walking the dog or something horrific has happened, right,

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Speaker 1: you are actually not not horrific, but like, No, you

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Speaker 1: call me all the times funny or crazy.

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Speaker 2: No, you call me all the time for random stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess.

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Speaker 2: No, I mean, and it's it's fine. It's it's fine.

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Speaker 2: But it's not like I only call you when I've

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Speaker 2: got something to say. No, you call me with you

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Speaker 2: don't have anything to say, and it's fine.

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Speaker 1: My friend has a role. Don't put Michael on speaker

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Speaker 1: in front of the kids, like or don't read out

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Speaker 1: Michael's texts is like the role in her house.

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Speaker 2: I think that that's probably a good rule.

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Speaker 1: That's a good rule to have.

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Speaker 3: How are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm good, I'm baby crazy and I've never even cared

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Speaker 1: about kids. Okay, but I've been around a lot of

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Speaker 1: kids lately that didn't suck. They were like kind of

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Speaker 1: cool and fun to hang out with, and that's never

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Speaker 1: happened before. So like all the kids up until I

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Speaker 1: guess this weekend. If you're a kid and you've known

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Speaker 1: me before this weekend, I didn't.

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Speaker 2: Including Maddie and Zach, his niece and nephew. By the way.

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Speaker 1: I just like especially babies. Up until this moment, I've

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Speaker 1: just really not been like drawn to them or felt

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Speaker 1: an affinity for them. Yeah, you love babies.

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Speaker 2: And I always feel like people don't believe me when

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Speaker 2: I say I always want to see a picture of

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Speaker 2: your kid. I always want to see a picture.

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Speaker 1: And she really means it.

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Speaker 2: I mean it, I really do. Like don't feel like,

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Speaker 2: oh Melissa is not good.

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Speaker 1: Yes she will and even if she doesn't know you, Nope,

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Speaker 1: I'll be like, oh, my friends.

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Speaker 2: Show a baby, had a baby, Show me the baby.

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Speaker 1: And Melissa will be like, send me that ship.

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Speaker 2: And not only that, but like so if Michael knows

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Speaker 2: somebody who's had a baby, and I'm like, come up

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Speaker 2: to the baby way and he's like, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, how long is the baby? I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, how's mom? I guess she's okay, like the

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Speaker 2: most useless man and like and then I And the

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Speaker 2: thing is I asked these questions knowing that you're not

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Speaker 2: going to know, but I ask you anyway. So really

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Speaker 2: the problem is me, at this point, you're never going

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Speaker 2: to stop asking me because I'm never gonna because I

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Speaker 2: really want to know. Let me ask you a question,

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Speaker 2: if there any do you feel like you might like

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Speaker 2: kids enough to have one or just enough to not

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Speaker 2: hate being around them.

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Speaker 1: I think there was no wrong answer. I think there

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Speaker 1: would have to be something major that happened that changed

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Speaker 1: my life and my perspective that would shift how I

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Speaker 1: feel about kids in my life, because right now there's

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Speaker 1: no place for it and there's no real desire for it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but I do feel like I like them enough where

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Speaker 1: that could change. But I don't feel like it's anytime soon.

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Speaker 1: I don't foresee that happening. Ya.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that there'll ever be a point in

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Speaker 2: your life where you regret not having a kid.

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. I also don't really think about

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Speaker 1: my life in those like big sort of platitudes right

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Speaker 1: where I'm thinking, oh am I gonna I don't really

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Speaker 1: think about that. It's a little bit I guess my

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Speaker 1: perspective is a little bit more truncated. This is sidebar.

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Speaker 1: Let's get into a personal story from the week. I

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Speaker 1: know that you have a unique family dynamic right with

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Speaker 1: your husband and you have a stepdaughter. Let's get into

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Speaker 1: it a little bit.

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Speaker 2: You know what there I think that there was a

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Speaker 2: point where I felt like I really want to be like,

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Speaker 2: I want to have a child. And then when I

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Speaker 2: started to realize that time was running out right, the

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Speaker 2: clock was ticking on it, I feel like I grieved

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Speaker 2: it just for like a minute. But now I don't

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Speaker 2: look back thinking to myself, Oh, no, so sad that

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Speaker 2: I never had a child. And I think that for me,

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Speaker 2: it's because there have been a lot. There are a

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Speaker 2: lot of kids in my life. I think that's the

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Speaker 2: same for me, there are a ton of kids in

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Speaker 2: my life. I was lucky enough to marry a man

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Speaker 2: who had a daughter that I liked, and she liked me,

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Speaker 2: and we get along really well. Her mother is a

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Speaker 2: decent enough person. We get along just fine. Yeah, that

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Speaker 2: is the ideal, because because KP was eleven when Anya

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Speaker 2: and I started dating, and eleven is a weird age

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Speaker 2: and I usually got to tell you, that's the age

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Speaker 2: group that I don't like, like ten to like thirteen.

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Speaker 1: The age group the TV show Pen fifteen where they're

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Speaker 1: just so awkward.

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Speaker 2: They're super awkward. They all smell kind of gamey and

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Speaker 2: like the teeth are too big and the glasses are weird,

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Speaker 2: the hair is fucked up. They're not that nice and

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Speaker 2: the hormones are weird. I'm good, but and I also

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Speaker 2: think that when he and I first started dating, we

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Speaker 2: spent a lot of time alone before I met her,

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Speaker 2: and then I would only see her like Saturday afternoon

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Speaker 2: for a couple of hours, right, And then it wasn't

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Speaker 2: until later that we spent a lot like I spent

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Speaker 2: entire weekends with them and then moved in together. So

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Speaker 2: I feel like like I'm a I know that I'm

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Speaker 2: like a bonus mom and I am everyone's favorite. Onto.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's kind of cool though, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I mean and I also my cousins who have kids,

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Speaker 2: when they sent their kids to college, they all came

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Speaker 2: to New York, and I was like, mom, on.

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Speaker 1: The ground, you can buy them beer, you can buy

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Speaker 1: them condoms, you can buy them cigarettes, Like you're that

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Speaker 1: you're there.

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Speaker 2: I used to just always say, you know, no guns

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Speaker 2: and no knives, like no guns and no knives, keeps like,

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Speaker 2: I mean, right, I feel like you can because I like,

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Speaker 2: if I were to say don't drink, that's I be

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Speaker 2: a hypocrite because they're going to don't have sex. Hypocrisy.

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Speaker 2: I would rather just give you condoms. Please wrap it up,

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Speaker 2: wrap it up, keep it clean and tight, you know

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Speaker 2: what I mean.

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Speaker 1: It's not going to stop them.

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Speaker 2: It won't stop them, and it'll put them in a

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Speaker 2: place of if God forbid something happens, they won't have

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Speaker 2: anybody to talk to. So I want to be the

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Speaker 2: person that you could be, like.

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Speaker 1: Yes, when you tell a teenager, know, don't do that thing,

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Speaker 1: what you're doing is just telling them to be ashamed

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Speaker 1: of it when they eventually inevitably do it, if it's

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Speaker 1: something that's inevitable.

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Speaker 2: Right or I mean, I think you know my parents.

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Speaker 2: I grew up in a really strict household, and my

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Speaker 2: mom and dad didn't want me to do anything. And

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Speaker 2: so what it did instead was that it made me

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Speaker 2: really wily, and it made me super sneaky, and I

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Speaker 2: lied incessantly and they never knew where I really was

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Speaker 2: because I had always lied about it. And I remember

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Speaker 2: one time I had see something on the which so

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Speaker 2: much more dangerous. Of course, this is so cool course,

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Speaker 2: and I mean, and the funny thing is is like,

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Speaker 2: and I mean this sincerely, I wasn't really up to

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Speaker 2: anything bad. I toltally look, I never did like I

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Speaker 2: just was not interested. But I was sixteen years old.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to go out with my friends.

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Speaker 1: I could have gotten lost or in the wrong place,

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Speaker 1: and no one knows where you are, like, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, especially you know, when you're like a sixteen year

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Speaker 2: old girl and like a twenty five year old man

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Speaker 2: like comes up to you, You're like, there's a little

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Speaker 2: part of you that's like flattered, right, Like, oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: but that's really unsafe. Yeah, right, it's really unsafe. And

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Speaker 2: I don't I don't know. I was making weird decisions

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Speaker 2: because I felt like I had to lie all the time.

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Speaker 1: Did you have older boyfriends? Because I did? Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I think back on that because I'm the age now

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Speaker 1: are you of the boyfriend? And I'm like that was sick. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was really messed up. But you didn't know that. No,

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Speaker 1: But even and like back when I was twenty, he

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Speaker 1: was twenty five and I was sixteen. When I was

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Speaker 1: twenty five, I was like, wait a minute, and that

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Speaker 1: is that was not cool?

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Speaker 2: And like the idea of like as a grown twenty

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Speaker 2: five year old man hooking up with the sixteen year

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Speaker 2: old child.

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Speaker 1: When I was twenty five, I didn't want to hook

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Speaker 1: up with the twenty three year old. I was like,

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Speaker 1: that is too immature for me. I'm not interested in

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Speaker 1: what they're up to totally. Yeah, but you had older boyfriends.

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Speaker 2: I did, Yeah, I did. Yeah, And that's all we're

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Speaker 2: going to say about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, anyway, let's get into your algorithm is showing.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about what's going on in our feeds, what's

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Speaker 1: happening in the news, what is all over your timeline

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Speaker 1: because mine.

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Speaker 2: Is, Yeah, what's in yours?

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Speaker 1: Okay, because I did want to talk about this because

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Speaker 1: I saw it this morning, and there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of headlines right now, you guys, and there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of breaking news, and there's a lot of noise, and

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Speaker 1: we're not talking about the really important stuff. For example,

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Speaker 1: the Canadian woman who sent eighteen hundred lemons in one

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Speaker 1: at a time over two hundred and forty one days

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Speaker 1: to her ex boyfriend. Okay, this is a uber eats criminal.

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Speaker 2: But other that see, I saw this and I was

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Speaker 2: like confused. Other than being really annoying, she's.

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Speaker 1: Just was like, I'm going to annoy the shit out

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Speaker 1: of this man for a year and sent him one

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Speaker 1: lemon at a time.

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Speaker 2: Right when I first read it, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I thought she'd sent him like eighteen hundred lemons at once, right.

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Speaker 1: One at a time. One arrived during a job interview.

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Speaker 1: But so so I think it's brilliant, right.

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Speaker 2: Like, no, I like, do we strive to be that petty.

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Speaker 1: One arrived at the hospital when when he was visiting

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Speaker 1: his father?

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Speaker 2: So I guess I wonder why how did she know

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Speaker 2: that he was going to be at the hospital visiting?

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Speaker 2: Did she poison the dad to make sure that he

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Speaker 2: was in the house.

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Speaker 1: This is why there are criminal charges because it's like stalking,

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Speaker 1: is it?

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Speaker 2: Though?

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Speaker 1: I think that's what she's being brought up on, like

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Speaker 1: a actual charges. CJ fact checked me here because I

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Speaker 1: think she did not fully understand it was a problem.

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Speaker 2: I think I'm on team Brittany based on what based

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Speaker 2: on the information that I have, it's one lemon a day,

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Speaker 2: who cares.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, if he were a pirate, this would be like

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Speaker 1: prepping him for scurvy in a way, like truly she's

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Speaker 1: got she's looking out for him in a certain word,

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Speaker 1: I just don't understand.

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Speaker 2: I mean in some of the stuff he's like now

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Speaker 2: he's got citrus based distress. Give me a fucking brain.

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Speaker 1: The defense argued the deliveries were fruit and therefore not threatening.

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Speaker 2: This is am I wrong?

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Speaker 1: Right, No, I agree with you. I think it's like

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Speaker 1: I think if.

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Speaker 2: It was something like more meant like if she had

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Speaker 2: been sending him like dog turds, it'd be more because

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Speaker 2: that's disgusting and it's like possibly there's like disease. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but this is a lemon.

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Speaker 1: There's a whole side of TikTok that tells you how

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Speaker 1: to get revenge on an X without breaking the law.

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Speaker 1: Some of them are like throw bamboo seeds on his lawn.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I know, because bamboo it's really infasic. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I ended up on bamboo talk after I saw that

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Speaker 1: one that I thought was evil and brilliant was you

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Speaker 1: put raw shrimp in the pole that holds up their

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Speaker 1: shower curtain.

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Speaker 2: Huh.

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Speaker 1: That way they don't know where the smell is coming

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Speaker 1: from and they can never find it.

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Speaker 2: I had a friend of mine, so you know, Michael knows,

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Speaker 2: But I don't know if people know that I scrap book, right,

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Speaker 2: I won't be judged by you. I'm no, no, no, no

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Speaker 2: no no.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes people come out with like oh with mentioning a hobby.

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Speaker 1: But I'm just not ready, just ready.

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Speaker 2: But you've known that. I've been scrapbooking since we've known

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Speaker 2: each other, I know.

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Speaker 1: But you seem so normal up until you mentioned it,

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Speaker 1: and then it just really mecaps me. I forgot this

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Speaker 1: about you.

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Speaker 2: So when I first st I did a lot of

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Speaker 2: the women were significantly older than me. So there was

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Speaker 2: this woman. She actually passed away last year. She her husband.

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Speaker 2: She and her husband were getting a divorce and he

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Speaker 2: was moving out. Okay, so before he moved out, he

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Speaker 2: was really allergic to fiberglass. She washed his underwear in fiberglass,

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Speaker 2: like you know, the he got a fib a fire

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Speaker 2: crouch h But he didn't know why she washed all

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Speaker 2: his clothes with the Oh my god, right.

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Speaker 1: So he's got a mysterious rash.

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Speaker 2: Not knowing what the hell happened. I was like, you

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Speaker 2: know what.

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Speaker 1: Has someone who's gotten a mysterious rash from like a

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Speaker 1: hot tub That would have sent me spiraling? I would

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Speaker 1: have been on the virtual zoo the doctor.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is this is I mean she did this?

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, yeah, probably like in the eighties or something.

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Speaker 1: But I'd rest her soul Wow, good for her.

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Speaker 2: Oh she was. She was like she was just like

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Speaker 2: you know, I was. I was going to be civil

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Speaker 2: and he cheated and I kicked his ass out. However,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm all about.

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Speaker 1: Crime and punishment until it comes to an next boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: and then everything goes out the window for me. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: it's a man, we kind of have to scale this one.

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Speaker 1: We have to do we have to use a sliding

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Speaker 1: scale for this punishment. Yeah, like what's like, what's the

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Speaker 1: sliding scale?

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Speaker 2: Like? How bad?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. My first boyfriend cheated on me. So

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Speaker 1: I'm just like perpetually jaded. So I'm just like everything

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Speaker 1: I approach is like, if you cheat on me, they

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Speaker 1: will need tweezers to identify the body. Like it is

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Speaker 1: not gonna.

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Speaker 2: Be but like you know, it's records, right, No, I

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Speaker 2: hear you. I think once I've had some time, I

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Speaker 2: stop caring.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is true. I do forget pretty much everything

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Speaker 1: anyone ever tells me. But like eventually I just truly

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Speaker 1: forget what happened. Yeah, but that core emotional trauma stays

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Speaker 1: of just like yeah, when it comes to like boyfriend revenge,

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Speaker 1: I just know that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there are definitely some people where you're like,

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Speaker 2: you know what, I can never be in the same

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Speaker 2: room with you ever again, Like I can never see

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Speaker 2: you again. I don't ever want to talk to you again.

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Speaker 2: But I also have no need.

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Speaker 4: To like.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, do like wash your underwear in fiberglass,

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Speaker 2: like I just it's I'm good for.

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Speaker 1: Someone who's like keyed cars. I'm like surprised you've said that.

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Speaker 1: You're saying that, like I'm surprised that you are. You're like,

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Speaker 1: I don't need revenge as someone who was the lookout

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Speaker 1: while your friend drilled holes in a man's masta.

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Speaker 2: No, it was a Ford probe.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, Pinto, I'm not that old.

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Speaker 2: It was a prob.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a little revisionist history here.

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Speaker 2: I don't know it was a probe. It was a probe.

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Speaker 2: I mean, okay, but like I wouldn't do that.

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Speaker 1: Now, You're like, I've got ship to do. I got laundry,

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Speaker 1: I got dishes, tired.

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Speaker 2: I'm tired, I got a I don't like it outside

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Speaker 2: like I'm good.

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Speaker 1: We barely have voting rights anymore. Let's just just kind on.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I think that. So back to Brittany, I

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Speaker 2: think that I don't understand what is illegal about this.

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Speaker 2: So she apparently did this. She sent on eight and

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Speaker 2: forty seven lemons in single orders over two hundred and

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Speaker 2: forty one days, sometimes multi multi orders per day to

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Speaker 2: her ex So like the one that arrived during his

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Speaker 2: job interview at the job interview itself, and so somebody

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Speaker 2: interrupted the job interview to give him the lemon.

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Speaker 1: That's probably the door to thatsher where you.

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Speaker 2: Meet the pen like this, it's so it's so stupid.

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Speaker 1: Well, because did you see his name as Cole? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, he deserves it people named Cole. I'm sorry, No,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: That is not what do you have against Cole?

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Speaker 1: I just I just think that's one of those names

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Speaker 1: where it's like he's probably a douche.

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Speaker 2: What else is a name like that?

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Speaker 1: Jamison? I don't like anyone named Jamison. I think about you. Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't trust any Matts there's you are. I am

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Speaker 1: judging mats until proven otherwise, I.

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Speaker 2: Think what I hate. I don't think there's a name

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Speaker 2: that invokes something to me. But I get upset when

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Speaker 2: people spell their names wrong, like Justin with the why wrong? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's wrong. That's not how you spell justin it's not

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Speaker 2: or like do you know what I mean? Or like,

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Speaker 2: and it's not even the person's fault, it's their parents' fault.

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Speaker 2: But like how much does your parents? Does your parents

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Speaker 2: hate you?

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Speaker 1: His parents? Like I want it to be really hard

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Speaker 1: for them to order from Starbucks?

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Speaker 2: Justin with the why did you or anything.

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Speaker 1: Like that, did you watch the mac Gala or like

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Speaker 1: see did it like cross your feet at all in

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Speaker 1: your algorithm? Not at all?

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Speaker 2: Well a little bit, a little bit, but like I

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Speaker 2: think I was disinterested. So I'm trying to like cultivate

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Speaker 2: my algorithm so that I don't get stuck on things

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Speaker 2: that annoy me. And I was not interested, so I

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Speaker 2: flashed by it.

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Speaker 1: That's a beautiful like New Year's resolution.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's what I really need to do is

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Speaker 2: get all social media.

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Speaker 1: Well, because like the algorithm is a reflection of life,

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Speaker 1: and so for you to be like I'm going to

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Speaker 1: blow right past the things that annoy me and focus

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Speaker 1: on what I like. That's like kind of a life philosophy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I say that, but then you're kicking people

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Speaker 1: on the subway.

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Speaker 2: I'm about to kick you I do end up on

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Speaker 2: like the weird side of TikTok, like I'm I've gotten

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Speaker 2: I'm on too, like pedicure TikTok, podietary TikTok, which is

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Speaker 2: people are struggling out there. It's really bad.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I can handle.

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Speaker 2: No, I know, and some of it is like so

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Speaker 2: deeply disturbing, and I think, and so what I really

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Speaker 2: think it's a reflection of what happens when people don't

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Speaker 2: have access to healthcare. Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: It's like a yes, it's like ew, but like it's

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Speaker 2: like that because because if you could afford to go

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Speaker 2: to the doctor to take care of something, if you

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Speaker 2: had healthcare, you probably would not wait until you couldn't

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Speaker 2: walk right. You probably would not wait until whatever it

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Speaker 2: was on your foot became gangrenous. Do you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean? Yeah, I watched that. Oh I watched that.

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Speaker 2: You know what else I watch? And then this is

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Speaker 2: really disgusting, like the earwax ones.

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Speaker 1: No, I have to go. I can't handle that. I

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Speaker 1: can't I don't have the stomach.

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Speaker 2: I'm not even ashamed. I'm just like this is who

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Speaker 2: I am at this point. This is what I'm looking

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Speaker 2: at I don't want to look at ai fruit anymore,

399
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,840
Speaker 2: but I will look at the dietary TikTok. I am

400
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 2: a very damaged person. But yeah, I mean, and I

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00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,240
Speaker 2: say that this sort of like ties in with what

402
00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 2: happened with Obamacare, right, those subsidies that expired. Okay. I

403
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,399
Speaker 2: was looking at somebody who was saying that his premium

404
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,879
Speaker 2: had been something like three hundred dollars a month that

405
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Speaker 2: he was managing to take care and it bumped up

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Speaker 2: to eighteen hundred dollars a month, right, and he was

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Speaker 2: just like, well, Okay.

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Speaker 1: Then it drives me insane because it's like, at what

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Speaker 1: point do we hold corporations accountable for their activity? And

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Speaker 1: it's just so sick to me. I mean, every other

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Speaker 1: country in the world, like every modern nation has healthcare,

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Speaker 1: and it's still this like hot button issue here as

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Speaker 1: if it's like debatable if people need this or not.

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Speaker 2: You know. I was listening to something the other day

415
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Speaker 2: about the political violence right now people had become sort

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Speaker 2: of really apathetic, and one of the examples that they mentioned,

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Speaker 2: even though it wasn't really political, was the murder of

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Speaker 2: the United Health not a healthcare CEO I don't know

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Speaker 2: that it is an indication of like bloodlust, right, but

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Speaker 2: I do think it's like we understand how somebody could

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Speaker 2: be so frustrated at their health care system, right Like

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Speaker 2: I was. Remember I think I told you that I

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Speaker 2: needed to have a sleep study done, right, Yes?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Wait what happened?

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Speaker 2: Nothing happened because my insurance won't cover it. No, no,

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Speaker 2: they won't cover it.

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Speaker 1: And like some of the best insurance, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And they won't cover it. And I think the out

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Speaker 2: of pocket of it was something astronomical. It was like

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Speaker 2: ten thousand dollars. Yeah, And so so then what am

431
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Speaker 2: I to do? Right that my doctor's saying that I

432
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Speaker 2: need it, my insurance company is saying that I don't

433
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,720
Speaker 2: need it? Really, right, this is and that's and I

434
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Speaker 2: think it's things like that. And at least for me,

435
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Speaker 2: this is not like I don't have cancer, God forbid,

436
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,640
Speaker 2: but like when there are people who have diseases like that,

437
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 2: illness is like that. Could you imagine being a parent

438
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,439
Speaker 2: of a child who has something and you have.

439
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 1: Insurance and also you and I are so frustrated by this,

440
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 1: and we are the most privileged people, right, Like we

441
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,639
Speaker 1: live in a major city where access to so many

442
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 1: different healthcare and we have good coverage, yeah, we have

443
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 1: good insurance. Yeah, And still it's like just constantly whittling away.

444
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 2: It's constant, and I mean, and I've been like and

445
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 2: I'm hoping that we get to talk about this another time,

446
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,639
Speaker 2: but like, just there's this guy that I follow on

447
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,639
Speaker 2: social media and I can't remember his name right now,

448
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,080
Speaker 2: but he's a social worker. He's going for his PhD.

449
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 2: And his job is he advocates for people with their

450
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: insurance company for them to get coverage, coverage, and so

451
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 2: it's we always see it from his perspective, him talking

452
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 2: on the phone and he's saying, the doctor said that

453
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 2: this person needed you said no. We've been back and forth,

454
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 2: and now this person is dead. Right. And the thing

455
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 2: about it is that the person who's making the decision

456
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 2: is not somebody who is a medical professional. It's a

457
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 2: bean counter, right, And so that is why, right, that's

458
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 2: why I'm on pedetary TikTok looking at stuff like that,

459
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 2: and that's why people are not taking good care of themselves.

460
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 1: And it's also why people are freaking out on service workers.

461
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 1: It's like no one has access to or the systems

462
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: in which they would affect that change with their elected

463
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: representatives have failed, and the only person they have access

464
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,120
Speaker 1: to is the person getting paid ten bucks an hour

465
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,439
Speaker 1: to answer the phone a customer service, and so they're

466
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: absolutely amazing their shit on that.

467
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 2: Person, and it's not okay to abuse that person. But

468
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 2: I think we're living in a space where more and

469
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 2: more people are so frustrated, we're so frustrated, we're so angry,

470
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 2: we're taking things out on other people. There is a

471
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 2: lot of political violence, and I mean, and again, no

472
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 2: matter how you feel about the president, that any president

473
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 2: of the United States, it's not okay to try and

474
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 2: kill somebody, right, And the fact that it's happened to

475
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 2: this president, it's happened three times, right, whether he correct

476
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 2: is it is, it is concerning. And I was reading

477
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 2: that apparently somebody had tried to kill Obama eleven times.

478
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: And I remember, I forget how old I was, maybe

479
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: I was in the third grade when Ronald Reagan was shot,

480
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 2: Like this is I mean, you know, and it's and

481
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: it's happening more and more.

482
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: Right, I was going to say, I think it's just

483
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 1: going to it's.

484
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 2: Absolutely we're escalating, And I think we're just coming to

485
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 2: a place where, like I said, people are just so

486
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 2: fed up, especially if you are somebody who's trying so

487
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 2: hard to do the right thing and.

488
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: You cannot really interesting expressions of joy in all this

489
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 1: quote Andre Leon Tally dracitude. All right, we need Andre

490
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 1: Leon Talian these trying times and there's all these like.

491
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 2: There's a documentary about him so good, it's so.

492
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 1: The best. But this, in this dratitude, people are finding

493
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: like ways to find joy, right. And I saw in

494
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 1: response to the met Gala, which is sponsored by Jeff Bezos,

495
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 1: it's costume artistry and it's brought to you by the Bezos.

496
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: Is it's and you know they're constantly shooting on their

497
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: workers and union busting and being billionaires that fund ice

498
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,640
Speaker 1: and a bunch of Amazon workers have their own red

499
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: carpet met Gala. That it was so great, it was

500
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: really good, and it's like a lot of people boycott it,

501
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: But a lot of people didn't boycott the Mecala, and

502
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: a lot of people that you would have hoped boycotted didn't.

503
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think I think also we are

504
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 2: learning that people are very disappointing. Yeah, you know what

505
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 2: I mean, it's people that you even if you're not

506
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 2: somebody who's a huge fanboy, right, like, but there are

507
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,479
Speaker 2: people that you're like, that's disappointing. It's disappointing that you

508
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: didn't say something about this particular thing. It's disappointed that

509
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 2: this is your stance that you're choosing to sort of

510
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: like shit on people like like like honestly like JK

511
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 2: Rowling is super disappointing to me. But people like that,

512
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: people that you feel like they have something that is good,

513
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 2: like a talent. Yeah, and they've got name, recognition and power.

514
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: And they've got the platform for it and.

515
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: The platform, and what they're choosing to do is either

516
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 2: shit on a population, yeah, say nothing. So I was

517
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 2: reading something about the metala and how what it used

518
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 2: to be versus what it is right now. Right you

519
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 2: used to be invited to come and now more and

520
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 2: more people are paying to come. So it's so it's

521
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 2: framed as a donation to the met ye to do

522
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 2: whatever exhibit that it is. And you know, and listen,

523
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 2: fashion is art and art deserves.

524
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: To be I mean, I think the met has its

525
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: own form of problematic.

526
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 2: Don't they all?

527
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: They all do, Yes, they all do. But I think

528
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: the met itself is like not great towards its workers.

529
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: The Sacler name was all over it and it took

530
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: a lot to get them to remove it.

531
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 2: What else did you need, folks?

532
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: They've got a lot of you know, looted antiquities, all

533
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: sorts of fun stuff like that. Every institution has its

534
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: own negative publicity. But I'm just disappointed and seeing the

535
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: people who have who went to the Mechcala knowing that

536
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,239
Speaker 1: people who I think are so quick and easy to

537
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: repost an anti ice thing on their instat when it

538
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: suits them. I just like, I'm noticing the people who

539
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: pull in a social justice movement like Black Lives Matter

540
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 1: or Ice out of LA and then they push it

541
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 1: away the second it doesn't suit them anymore. Yeah, it's

542
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: gross and I don't like it. And I don't want

543
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 1: you wearing your Ice out of LA pen if you're

544
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: not going to put your money where your mouth is.

545
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: Like I think that happened with Black Lives Matter in

546
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, where everyone was like, we're going to do

547
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: our blackout post and then they just like went back

548
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: to casting all white casts in their movies and TV shows, right.

549
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 2: I mean think about all the makeup companies who were

550
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 2: just like, oh yeah, we're now going to have like

551
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 2: people of colors, and they they had like the one

552
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 2: and then the one token black, the one token, and

553
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 2: then it was that was it.

554
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: I'm more disappointed in people like that because you're actually

555
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: co opting a movement, using it to move forward your

556
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: own agenda, your own success, your own celebrity, and then

557
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: dumping at the second.

558
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 2: It's like, in community, what bothers you more? Does it

559
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: bother you more to have someone do what you just said,

560
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 2: Like when something is hot, right, they decide, oh, yeah, whatever,

561
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 2: black lives matter or whatever it is, and then like

562
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 2: do nothing later? Or do you resent the people who

563
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: never say anything? Ever?

564
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: I think I can hate everyone, and I think that's

565
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: like a beautiful thing about my personality is that I

566
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: can hate you all each. I think there's something like

567
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: equally sick about both of you, right, Like one of

568
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: you is like performing. One person's performing and using a

569
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: movement to raise their own profile, and the other person

570
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: is like willfully blind. And I think those are two

571
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: different insidious diseases and they both should be euthanized.

572
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 2: I think that Michael, I think that The folks who

573
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 2: are performative really really pissed you off more the people

574
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: who are silent, because if I choose to believe that

575
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 2: people do try their best, Yeah, we never know what

576
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: the person who is silent is actually doing in the background.

577
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: You know what this is. I think it's the trolley problem,

578
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: you know, the like if you pull the lever, it

579
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: kills ten people, but if you don't pull the lever,

580
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: it only kills one person. Like, which one do you do?

581
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: It's like a famous philosophical debate. One is doing nothing

582
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: and one is doing something and also causing harm.

583
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 2: Yeah it causes harm?

584
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Yeah, I don't know. I think they're both monsters.

585
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: I think they both suck and I don't like them

586
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: and they should eat it and die. And like that's kind.

587
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 2: Of like and that's what he has to say about that.

588
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, like that's that's kind of like all you get

589
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: from me.

590
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: No, I hear you, I hear you. It's again. I'm

591
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 2: tired of being disappointed at almost everyone at every level. Right,

592
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 2: I'm disappointed in like celebrities, I'm disappointed in newspeople, I'm

593
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 2: disappointed in my I'm just totally random thing that just

594
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: popped into my head and I'm really what.

595
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 1: I have one last thing to sell on this. I'm

596
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: sorry before we segue. Yeah, I am so sick of

597
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: people who just like don't who just like are not

598
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: getting involved in We are not at a place in

599
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: society where you are not a part of it, even

600
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: with your silence, even with like your capitulation, Like you

601
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: your silence is causing harm. And it's so obvious now

602
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: and there's so much evidence that that's true that if

603
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: you're not doing anything that that really does drive me crazy.

604
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: So like these like melli mouthed celebrities who don't support

605
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: anything and who are just like pretty and out there

606
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: and making movies and TV and on Instagram, like that

607
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: pisses me off, Like use your platform for something. I

608
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: have become close with SJP and she uses her platform

609
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: and and in like this extraordinary way where she's so

610
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: involved politically and knows what's going on and is like

611
00:31:55,040 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: well read and well versed in everything, reposts everything, reads everything.

612
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just incredible the way she's been able

613
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: to say, like she's like one of the most famous

614
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: women I think alive today and she's like yeah, hell yeah,

615
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: like people like her are just like very inspiring to me,

616
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: and her doing that hasn't diminished her celebrity, right, we

617
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: don't see like it's proof that doing that isn't going

618
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: to take away from your sort of public profile. So anyway,

619
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: what was your sec que?

620
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: This is a really silly thing. But so I was

621
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: listening to an interview that Tucker Carlson gave and I

622
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 2: listened to the whole thing.

623
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: What do you think of his wig? What do you

624
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: think of that wig?

625
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 2: I think he needs to get better lace. I think

626
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: I think you need to get better lace. I think

627
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 2: that the glue that you're using is old and dry,

628
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 2: fried and it's sleaking.

629
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: And he's kind of woke now in a weird way.

630
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: Snaky the tale.

631
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 2: Yes, let me just say that. I mean, there are

632
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 2: so many things about him that are deeply problematic, but

633
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: I will tell you what I learned about him that

634
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 2: I was floored to hear him say that. Did you

635
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: know that he almost never votes? I never?

636
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: I never vote, So that's the truth.

637
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 2: I did not know that he said it himself. He

638
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, I rarely vote. I voted for Trump

639
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: and twenty sixteen. I think he said he voted for

640
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 2: him in twenty twenty and in twenty twenty three. Oh wow,

641
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: but he seldom votes.

642
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: No, It's like, seldom votes except for those two times for.

643
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 2: Drawn right, no right. And so really, that's what he's

644
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 2: saying is why he's so disappointed in him, because he

645
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 2: was like, I hardly. But it's like to me, you're like,

646
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 2: you're one of the people who's responsible for what we've

647
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 2: got going on right now. And he didn't admit it.

648
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: He doesn't admit it, and he's like, sorry, but like

649
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 2: you don't vote.

650
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,239
Speaker 1: That's not what bothers me. What bothers me is that,

651
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: like you saw what happened for four years in twenty sixteen,

652
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: and then you were like.

653
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 2: Oh, he thought it was funny. Please no, because what

654
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: he said, what he's what he's saying that he's upset

655
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 2: about now is like this war that nobody wants, you know,

656
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 2: things like that. He like people who were who voted

657
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 2: for him were doing so because they know for financial reasons,

658
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: and he's not helping those people. So he's saying that

659
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 2: Trump is not doing what he set out to do. Listen,

660
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 2: if not me, you could listen to it yourself.

661
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: What a stupid fucking bitch.

662
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 2: He is the most annoying interview.

663
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: It gets hit by a bus. He is the dumbest,

664
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: gay little bitch on earth with ugly ass hair. He's

665
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: got a suitcase full of wigs. Take your suitcase full

666
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: of wigs and move on to the next town, buddy.

667
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: I like, fuck, fuck that little stupid.

668
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 2: Bitch, Like you don't vote my guy? But like I'm so,

669
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 2: I was so. I was flabbergasted by this, and I

670
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 2: was like Andre and I were listening to it in

671
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 2: the car and I was like, hang on, did he

672
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 2: just say he doesn't vote?

673
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: Driving off the road?

674
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 2: I was livid.

675
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: I have seen some interviews where he is he really

676
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: like baits the crap out of the interview. Do you

677
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: see the interview with Ted Cruz? No, Oh my god,

678
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: it's Tucker Carlston and Ted Cruise.

679
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: I've heard about it, though it did not go well.

680
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: It is like, what is that? It's like Gorilla Godzilla

681
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 1: versus Godzilla versus I don't really know who I'm rooting

682
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: for here, but I'm just watching this too. Monsters at

683
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: each other looks so stupid. Yeah, I guess this is

684
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: like political dog fighting.

685
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 2: It's like well, he was asking. He was like he

686
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 2: said to I think he said to Ted Cruz, how

687
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: many people are in.

688
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 1: Turkey, Iran, Iran and Iran. I think it was Iran.

689
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 2: It doesn't even matter right.

690
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: Ted Cruise was like, we need to invade But he

691
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: was like.

692
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 2: Well, how many people? And he was just like, well,

693
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 2: give me a guess. He's like, I don't know, I

694
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: don't know. He was a guest and he was just like,

695
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 2: you know, eight and Tucker was just like one point

696
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 2: seven million?

697
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:19,439
Speaker 1: How many people living around?

698
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 5: By the way, I don't know the population at all. No,

699
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 5: I don't know the population. You don't know the population

700
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 5: of the country. You see to Topple, what's the ethnic

701
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 5: mix of Ron? They are Persians and well predominantly Shia. Okay,

702
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,240
Speaker 5: you don't know anything about Iran.

703
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 1: And I remember this, and Ted Cruise was like, why

704
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: do I need to know the number? In Tucker's like,

705
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: you want to invade them, you should at least know

706
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: a little bit about what you're invading, how many people

707
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: you are up against? And he was like, oh yeah,

708
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 1: did Ted Cruz is was going to Iowa this week

709
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: to stump for to get to start to stump for

710
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: the mid terms, so it's good to know they're sending

711
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: their best and brightest for the GOP to Iowa. I

712
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: did say that that probably means there's like a juicy

713
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: this every time. Every time Ted Cruz leaves Texas, it's

714
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: because there's like a storm coming and they're all going

715
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: to lose power. So if you're in Texas, just get

716
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: ready you might lose power because he did leave the state. Yeah, anyway,

717
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 1: let's take a break. Welcome back with Under Oath. Welcome

718
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: back to brief re says, this is under Oath. You

719
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: may remember a few episodes ago we talked a bit

720
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: about transracialism, me and Melissa, and we thought it would

721
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 1: be interesting if we reached out to some folks who

722
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: do research in this area, who are scholars, and so

723
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: we're going to do a deep dive with our guest,

724
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: doctor Rebecca Tuvell. She's an associate professor in Chair of

725
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: Philosophy at Rhodes College. Her research addresses topics like transracialism

726
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 1: and cultural appropriation. Please welcome Rebecca Tuvell. Welcome. Thank you

727
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: so much for joining.

728
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: Us, well so much for being here. We really appreciate it.

729
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: Where are you located. Are you in where are you?

730
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: Just so we're a where are you?

731
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 3: I'm in Memphis, Tennessee.

732
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: All right. We thought it would be interesting to just

733
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: sort of talk to you. We reached out to a

734
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: few different experts, so this won't be the only conversation

735
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: we have on this.

736
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: Topic, hopefully not. Ye.

737
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it has sort of came up because it

738
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: was coming across Melissa's algorithms.

739
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 2: It was, Yeah, it came across my feed and I

740
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 2: sort of started digging a little bit into it. And

741
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 2: I remember when Rachel Dozal sort of like first sort

742
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 2: of came on the scene, and I remember not realizing

743
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 2: that trends Rachelism was like a thing, right. I just

744
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 2: thought there was this woman who's cosplaying as a as

745
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 2: a as a black woman, and I just remember being

746
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 2: really sort of as a black woman myself being super

747
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 2: offended by the notion of this, Right, my race, my

748
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 2: ethnicity is not a costume. I don't really I don't

749
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: love the idea of somebody appropriating that. And also she

750
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 2: was the president of her local naac Key chapter and

751
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: I was like, well, that feels some thing to me.

752
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 2: And also one of the things after she had really

753
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 2: come out and we were hearing learning more and more

754
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 2: about her. There was a recording of her having a

755
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,760
Speaker 2: conversation either in a classroom or in front a group

756
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 2: of people, and she was talking about her hair transition,

757
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,240
Speaker 2: and as a black woman who did have a hair transition,

758
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 2: that was you know, I think you need to sort

759
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 2: of be a black person to understand this. That was

760
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 2: challenging and difficult for me for a multitude of reasons

761
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 2: to hear this woman talk about how difficult it was

762
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 2: for her, only to realize that it wasn't right. It

763
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 2: was something that she said to make herself seem authentic.

764
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 4: Right.

765
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 2: I found that really upsetting. But that aside, there have

766
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 2: been a few other people more recently that I have

767
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: come across my feed and I remember sort of sitting

768
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 2: with myself and thinking to myself, why is this bothering me? Yeah,

769
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 2: because when I hear that somebody is transgendered, I accept

770
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 2: that as face value. So we should believe that people

771
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 2: are who they say that there are. It is not

772
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 2: for me to dictate who you are, who you are,

773
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 2: et cetera. And I could not understand why for me

774
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 2: those two things feel very different. But you know, we

775
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: often talk about you know, Michael and I talk about

776
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 2: things that are facts versus feelings, Right, this was definitely

777
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 2: not based in any fact. This is just a feeling

778
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 2: that I have a feeling of being uncomfortable. So I

779
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 2: sort of fell into a rabbit hole about this and

780
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,439
Speaker 2: so now and I brought it up to Michael, who

781
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 2: had never heard of it before.

782
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, on air, I was like, I this is the

783
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: first I'm hearing about this. I mean, Rachel Doleas I

784
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: was really like the only ever entree into this. So

785
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 1: could you sort of tell us, like, what is transracialism?

786
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: Where is this coming from? And you kind of like

787
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: define it for.

788
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 4: Us glad too, And I think, you know, Dolezol for

789
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 4: sure as a figure is complicated, and I think it's

790
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 4: important to think about transracial theory or transracialism more broadly.

791
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 4: And you know, we can talk about Dolesol in particular,

792
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 4: and she's certainly become kind of like the poster woman

793
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 4: for transracialism. But as you note it, Melissa, there are

794
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 4: many other people kind of started coming out of the woodworks.

795
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 4: And the question is, for me, is transracial identity a

796
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 4: real identity that people hold? And then what can we

797
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 4: say sort of metaphysically about it, so metaphysically meaning like,

798
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 4: is it actually possible to.

799
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 3: Change your race? Those are interesting philosophical questions. So I define.

800
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 4: Transracial identity as follows. Someone has a transracial identity if

801
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 4: they like sincerely identify as a member of a race

802
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 4: or eth no race with which they have no known

803
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 4: recent ancestry. You know, I define it, and I emphasize

804
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 4: eth no race in addition to race, because a lot

805
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 4: of the accounts kind of highlight the importance of kind

806
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 4: of ethnicity to racial identification. So if we think about

807
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 4: races as picking out like large populations of people linked

808
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 4: by geographic origins, common ancestry, and characteristic physical traits, eth

809
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 4: no races are like the cultural.

810
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 3: Subsets within those races.

811
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 4: So things that are you know, we where we think

812
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 4: about like not just appearance but culture, so language, religion, customs, traditions,

813
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 4: such that we can say that, you know, African Americans

814
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 4: and Afro Caribbeans are both racially black, but maybe eth

815
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 4: No racially distinct. And in looking at the accounts of

816
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 4: transracial folks, a lot of them will kind of ident

817
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 4: I at no racial first and foremost like and there's

818
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 4: was one study of fourteen self identified transracial people. That

819
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 4: kind of really highlights like the ethnic element to us fascinating.

820
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: Okay, so I did a lot of like internet digging

821
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: when this came up. Melissa and I sort of talked

822
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: about it, and you know, when we were getting prepared

823
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 1: to talk to you, I think for me, the rubber

824
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: really hits the road. Well, first of all, I don't

825
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 1: like when I'm like a gay man, and it makes

826
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: me really uncomfortable when people start comparing community struggles to

827
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: other community struggles, Oh, the transgender identity, Like I get nervous,

828
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: and it makes me uncomfortable when people are like, oh, well,

829
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: being trans racial is like being transgender, because it's like

830
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 1: I don't like when we're like A is to B

831
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: as B is to see. Like that makes me nervous

832
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: because it's like it sort of is reductive, and I

833
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: think it takes away from each community's sort of journey

834
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: or what they're working through. Or I don't think we

835
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 1: should be comparing a Haitian person's journey in America to

836
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: a white gay man's journey in America and saying, oh, well,

837
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:10,760
Speaker 1: it's the same persecution struggle.

838
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 2: It's not.

839
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: And it also really bugs me, and I think the

840
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: rubber hits the road for me when it comes to

841
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 1: everyone I was seeing who came up when I was

842
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: doing this research was a white person trying to be

843
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: a person of color or saying I'm transracial, and it

844
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: was a white person transitioning to a person of color.

845
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: And that shit bugged me because I was like, when

846
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: you do that, that is an assertion of a privilege

847
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: that Melissa can't turn around and do and pretend to

848
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: be Michael or say I am Michael, right. But a

849
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 1: lot of the people who identify as transracial were saying

850
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 1: I Am going to be a Haitian woman, and they

851
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: were white people like me, And that for me for

852
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 1: a loop, because I was like, that is you asserting

853
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: white privilege in America. That is you saying that you

854
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: are going to commondear someone else's culture for your for

855
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: whatever purpose, for your journey, and whether that is a

856
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: true belief, whether I mean so I want to remove this,

857
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: Oh well, that is just transgender. However it's race, because

858
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: that doesn't feel like an analog to me. It feels

859
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: like when a white person is like, I am going

860
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: to be a Haitian person. Now that feels very different

861
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 1: to me because it's so linked to community, it's so

862
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: linked to racial identity, and there's a history, there's a

863
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: history of slavery people of color and how the institutions

864
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: are sort of structured. So I think that really freaked

865
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: me out when that was happening.

866
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 4: No, this is excellent. Yeah, I just yeah, I mostly

867
00:45:59,520 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 4: need to.

868
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:01,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't want to be like I don't

869
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: want to be like Rebecca fixed this for me, Like,

870
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 1: I don't that's not like what I'm doing, tru Yeah.

871
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 4: No, No, I didn't think it that way. I mean,

872
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 4: I'm a philosopher. I just I love hard questions. I

873
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 4: love thinking about, you know, different arguments and uh and

874
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 4: comparing uh, you know, different kinds of identity claims. I

875
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,280
Speaker 4: think I'll just make a note quickly about.

876
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 3: The nature of analogies.

877
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 4: Analogies they never compare two identical things, right. If they did,

878
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 4: then it wouldn't be an analogy, right, we would just

879
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 4: be talking about the same thing. So analogies, by their

880
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 4: very nature, compare two things that have relevant similarities but

881
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 4: also that have certain dissimilarities. Again, that's why you know

882
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 4: they are analogies and not just mere identity claims. I

883
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 4: do think that it's important to be cautious when we

884
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 4: draw analogies, and at the same time, I think it

885
00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 4: has been really helpful to, like the history of political activism,

886
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 4: actually to employ certain analogies.

887
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 3: So you mentioned, you mentioned being gay.

888
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 4: You know, the Supreme Court case in defense of gay

889
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 4: marriage had actually borrowed some from the case in favor

890
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 4: of interracial marriage, right, so against anti missinsienation laws. Thank you, Yeah,

891
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 4: Loving be Virginia. And so there's at least there's an

892
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:34,280
Speaker 4: example of how sometimes like seeing similarities maybe in different

893
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:39,280
Speaker 4: kinds of struggles can be liberating, I can can be helpful,

894
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 4: let's say, toward certain liberatory struggles. I do think when

895
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 4: it comes to transgender identity and acceptance, especially like in

896
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 4: our current you know, political moment, it is risky, of

897
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 4: course to draw analogical comparisons, and I certainly understand.

898
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 3: Like the hesitation that people will have around these kinds.

899
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 4: Of analogical comparisons. You know, it's it's important too, I

900
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 4: think when you when you think about you know, publishing

901
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 4: like an article in a in a journal in philosophy

902
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 4: where you're exploring different kinds of arguments, versus you know,

903
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 4: taking a kind of like public stance and defense of like, hey,

904
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 4: here's here's this analogy, and do with it what you

905
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 4: will write them. I think, certainly I never anticipated my

906
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 4: article being read by you know, more than you know

907
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 4: a few people. But but of course it was in

908
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,919
Speaker 4: the in the cultural zeitgeist at the time. Anyway, people

909
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 4: people weren't drawing those comparisons.

910
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: And that article, you could you tell it give us

911
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: a little bit of background on that.

912
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 4: So sorry, yeah, yeah, I published the article in defense

913
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 4: of transracialism in twenty seventeen in the feminist philosophy journal Hypatia,

914
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 4: and it would argue that similar considerations and rightful support

915
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 4: of transgender identity and acceptance also extend to transracial identity

916
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 4: and acceptance.

917
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 3: And you know, I really I said that.

918
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:12,280
Speaker 4: You know, the paper was less about Dole's all in particular,

919
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 4: and more so using her and Caitlin Jenner's appearance on

920
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 4: Vanity Fair the same month, Rachel Dolezel came out as

921
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 4: a sort of opportunity to think through the philosophical questions

922
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 4: of you know, transracial identity.

923
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 2: In your work, Have you had an opportunity to speak

924
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 2: to people who were transracial and what has been your

925
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that for as many people that

926
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 2: there are, there will be somebody who looks at it

927
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 2: one way or another. Right, No, I think no two

928
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 2: people will look at any one issue exactly the same way.

929
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 2: But what what did you find and was it? I wonder? Sorry,

930
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 2: I'm sort of working through this as I ask you.

931
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 2: The question is is there a difference do you think

932
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 2: in the way that say a white person who is

933
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 2: a transracial person to become a black person, are they

934
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 2: very different than say a black person being transracial Asian?

935
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? And what do you

936
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 2: think that difference is and where do you think that

937
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 2: comes from? I don't know that you can really answer

938
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 2: that question, but it's just something that I've been thinking about.

939
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 4: I think it's a great question, and I'm glad you

940
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 4: asked it because it reminds me that I wanted to

941
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 4: say something in response to One of the somewhat known

942
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 4: transracial identified people is named Ronnie Gladden. And Ronnie is

943
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 4: actually a black man who identifies as what they call transgracial,

944
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 4: both transgender and transracial. So like Ronnie identifies as like

945
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 4: a white woman. And I've had Ronnie, come speak to

946
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 4: my classes before via zoom and Ronnie, I sure would

947
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:02,839
Speaker 4: be very happy to talk to y'all too, very very

948
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 4: friendly individual. It's interesting that Ronnie's story has kind of

949
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 4: flown under the radar, I think, because I think it

950
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 4: sort of challenges the idea that many people have about

951
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 4: transracial identified people, which is that it's just like white

952
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 4: people looking to identify as minority races for some sort

953
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 4: of like various purpose or stating some advantage or something.

954
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 4: So that is one thing I just wanted to name.

955
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 4: I think that there are there, certainly are going to

956
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 4: be all kinds of different factors that play into why

957
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,720
Speaker 4: it is that somebody who's born like white or black

958
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 4: or Asian or whoever, is going to identify as a

959
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 4: member of another race.

960
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 3: Right, I think that familial environment.

961
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 5: Right.

962
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 4: So doles All herself had this interesting story where she

963
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 4: like strongly disidentified with her white parents and then strongly

964
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,439
Speaker 4: identified with her for black adoptive siblings that her parents

965
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 4: had adopted from Africa, and then she's had an interesting

966
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 4: kind of racial experience, let's let's say, growing up. It's

967
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 4: totally plausible to me too, that some people could be

968
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:20,359
Speaker 4: identifying as members of another race for maybe reasons having

969
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 4: to do with like internalized oppression, you know. And I

970
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 4: think pulling apart the different reasons why we identify as

971
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 4: we do is a very messy, messy game, and honestly,

972
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 4: I think it applies.

973
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:33,359
Speaker 3: To transgender identity too.

974
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 4: I mean, we're not you know, I think there are

975
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 4: all different kinds of ways of being trans.

976
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:37,319
Speaker 2: Right.

977
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 4: Some people argue that like trans is a neuro biological

978
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 4: condition for some trans people.

979
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 3: Maybe it is.

980
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 4: And there's other trans people who identify for reasons that

981
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 4: we don't. We don't know, and it's for all you know,

982
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 4: it could be that some of those reasons have to

983
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 4: do with like a internalized misogyny, that's what some people claim.

984
00:52:57,239 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm not here to kind of adjudicate, like

985
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 4: or figure out who identifies, you know, as they do

986
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 4: and why. But I think it's just worth stipulating that,

987
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,839
Speaker 4: like identity is really complicated, and I think you can

988
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 4: acknowledge that there might be all kinds of different factors

989
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,760
Speaker 4: that go in, especially when you're dealing with like members

990
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 4: of a historically marginalized group.

991
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 3: So I would just like urge caution.

992
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 4: I guess in general, when it comes to like an

993
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 4: identity that you hold and that you flame like.

994
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 2: I think if you've sort of paid attention to history

995
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 2: and stuff, there have always been people who have passed right.

996
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 2: And these were usually for people who don't know. These

997
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 2: were usually African American people who their phenotype was such

998
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 2: that they appeared as white, and they decided to live

999
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 2: their lives or maybe travel as white people as a

1000
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 2: way of protecting themselves, as a way of protecting themselves,

1001
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 2: as a way of achieving a better life, being able

1002
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 2: to earn more money and no longer live with the

1003
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 2: oppression that have you know, sort of dogged African American people,

1004
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 2: especially in this country. I feel like those people. Again,

1005
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 2: these are feelings. These are Melissa's feelings, not facts that

1006
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 2: I look at those people and I there's a part

1007
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 2: of me that has tremendous amount of empathy. I understand, right,

1008
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 2: you are trying to protect yourself. You're trying to save yourself.

1009
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 2: That is not you know that, That is not the

1010
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 2: feeling that I get when I am looking at a

1011
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 2: transracial person. Now, I have never spoken to a transracial

1012
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,439
Speaker 2: person to get to try and understand. You know, please

1013
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 2: explain to me why this is what you're doing. But

1014
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 2: I have to tell you I would I would never

1015
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 2: ask a transgendered person why they were doing this, right,

1016
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean?

1017
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 1: Yeah? But I think for me, it's like transgender people

1018
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:57,959
Speaker 1: and people of color are in this country fighting to survive. Yes,

1019
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 1: Like the highest rates of murder are trans women of color.

1020
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: So this notion, I think it really raises my hackles

1021
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:09,439
Speaker 1: and gets me nervous when we talk about this, because

1022
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 1: it's like, these are two groups of communities that are

1023
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: fighting for their lives in America right now. And so

1024
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 1: it feels like when we talk about transracialism, it feels

1025
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 1: like and I'm not saying you're doing this, Rebecca on

1026
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 1: this call, it feels like to do that is it

1027
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 1: is to be like a little bit flippant with identity,

1028
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 1: to say like, oh, these two are the same, or

1029
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 1: that like transracialism is it just it makes me uncomfortable

1030
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: because I'm like, these these communities are already up against

1031
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: so much, and this feels like while some of it may,

1032
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 1: some transracialism may be valid, it feels like there is

1033
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 1: this channel running through it of an opportunity for a

1034
00:55:56,440 --> 00:56:00,040
Speaker 1: malfeezer to come in and be like, oh, I'm a

1035
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 1: white person who wants to kind of play around because

1036
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 1: of racial identity, and like that, and where we still

1037
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 1: have sorority parties where you know, sorority girls are wearing

1038
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: sombreros and mustaches, and just like being very callous and

1039
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 1: flippant with racial identity, like that is a huge part

1040
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 1: of American culture, not just like we still have people

1041
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: dressing as white girls dressing as Mulan for Halloween. We

1042
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: still have people who are being very appropriative of culture.

1043
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: And I think that it's not my job to like

1044
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 1: adjudicate whether someone's valid or invalid with their identity. But

1045
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 1: it's making me uncomfortable because I'm like, and that's the.

1046
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 2: Thing about this entire conversation is that, you know, for me, initially,

1047
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:49,720
Speaker 2: forget Rachel does off because that was a different feeling

1048
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 2: for me. But when this came through on my algorithm,

1049
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 2: I really had to sit with myself and ask myself,

1050
00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 2: why is this bothering you? Why is making you uncomfortable?

1051
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:04,760
Speaker 2: You know, Caitlin Jenner, you know, she bothers me personally,

1052
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,800
Speaker 2: but like, but but but her existence does not bother.

1053
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 1: Me because her existence as a woman is not taking

1054
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: away from biologically women who were born CIS women, Right,

1055
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 1: the existence of trans people isn't at the expense of

1056
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 1: CIS women.

1057
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 4: So I think a lot of people argue that, I

1058
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:30,439
Speaker 4: think incorrectly, as you noted, Michael, that trans women are

1059
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 4: like posing a threat to CIS women's identity in some way, right,

1060
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 4: And I would argue that that's a mistake, and analogously

1061
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 4: would say the same thing is true for transracial individuals.

1062
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 4: I mean, so the thought that, for instance, like having

1063
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 4: the category of trans available is going to make it

1064
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 4: such that like all of these women are going to

1065
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 4: like choose to transition to become men because it's terrible

1066
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 4: being a woman, or something like, we would say that's

1067
00:57:56,440 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 4: that's that's a completely unfounded kind of concern. I would

1068
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 4: argue the same thing when it comes to transracial identity.

1069
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 4: I mean, for people who actually hold a transracial identity

1070
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 4: and who like try to align their public racial perception

1071
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 4: with their internal racial identity. This is like not mirror

1072
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 4: going on Halloween for putting on cost sort of like

1073
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 4: you know, integrated into their daily life. They're like insisting

1074
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 4: on this identity over time, it's like often costly for them,

1075
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 4: as well, because like coming out as transracial, you think,

1076
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 4: you know.

1077
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 3: How that's received.

1078
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 4: So I think I would just challenge the idea that

1079
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 4: transracial identity itself poses a threat to like the welfare

1080
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 4: of transgender people are people of color. Now, I think

1081
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 4: what does pose a threat is when people like weaponize

1082
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 4: transracial identity against right people of color transgender individuals. I'll

1083
00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 4: just one other thing on this, A lot of the

1084
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 4: people in the trans racial like world, so if you

1085
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 4: kind of are in these online spaces so called r

1086
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,680
Speaker 4: cta race change to another is often how you can

1087
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 4: like find some of the transracor trace communities.

1088
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 3: They are often also people who.

1089
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 4: Identify as like gender minorities too, So there's actually quite

1090
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 4: a bit of overlap in between among like the people

1091
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 4: who identify this way and like you know, trans people

1092
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 4: or other kind of minorities. And that's actually not unique

1093
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 4: to transracial identity. There's like kind of more overlap than

1094
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 4: you'd expect among some of these non normative identities. And

1095
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 4: so you could take that for whatever it's worth, but

1096
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 4: I would say that maybe there's more of like an

1097
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 4: opportunity for allyship rather than than.

1098
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 2: I think, you know this is I'm going to go

1099
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 2: back to the crates on this and both sorry, both

1100
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 2: of you are probably way too young to know this movie.

1101
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 2: When I was coming up, there was a movie called

1102
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 2: I think it was called soul Man and and it

1103
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 2: starred see Tommy Howell, who was a white person, and

1104
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 2: he I forget what happened, but he ended up needing

1105
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 2: money to go to college. He had done something and

1106
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 2: his parents wouldn't pay and what the only scholarship that

1107
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:19,720
Speaker 2: was available was a scholarship that was available to African

1108
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 2: American students. So I can't remember what he did, like

1109
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 2: super Tan or whatever it is, and he took the

1110
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 2: space of someone, And I mean, and the movie is

1111
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 2: supposed to be kind of funny, but then of course

1112
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 2: they're sort of like these sort of cheesy moments where

1113
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 2: all of a sudden he's pulled over by a police

1114
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 2: officer when he's not doing anything and the light goes

1115
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:44,080
Speaker 2: off for him, and now he understands I think, you know,

1116
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 2: I think that people are worried about things like that, Yeah, right,

1117
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 2: you know, like Rachel Dosal taking the space as the

1118
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 2: president of her local NAACP chapter. And I know that

1119
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 2: there are people who are also worried about transuh women

1120
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 2: athletes right taking the space of cisgendered women in athletics.

1121
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 2: And maybe this sits with me because I am a

1122
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 2: black woman and I will always be a black woman,

1123
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 2: and there isn't anything that I could do, oh frankly

1124
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 2: would want to do about it, right, Perhaps that is

1125
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 2: why this is so concerning to me. I have a

1126
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 2: trans person in my life who I had read what

1127
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 2: they had said to us, and and they are also

1128
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 2: feeling uncomfortable with this because they're there. Their points was

1129
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 2: that they are simply trying to exist in this world,

1130
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 2: not trying to take the space of a cisgendered person.

1131
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 3: I think all of.

1132
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 4: That's right, and I think, you know that transracial in

1133
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 4: individuals might say, you know, precisely the same thing that like, try.

1134
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 3: Trying to live as they are.

1135
01:01:56,600 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 4: They're not trying to, you know, take advantage of things

1136
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 4: that aren't intended for them. This is another thing that

1137
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 4: comes up sometimes, you know, people worry understandably about there

1138
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 4: being a kind of inability to differentiate between you know,

1139
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 4: a person who maybe as deserving of a kind of

1140
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:20,040
Speaker 4: reparation or affirmative action benefit or something like that on

1141
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 4: account of having been descended from enslaved black people in America.

1142
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 4: You know, we do recognize all sorts of ways that

1143
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 4: people who have relevant histories might be eligible for different

1144
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 4: kinds of protections or benefits on the basis of those histories.

1145
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 3: So you could.

1146
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 4: Easily say, well, this is not intended for transracial black people,

1147
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 4: because the thing we're trying to do here is offer

1148
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,920
Speaker 4: reparations for those who were descended from people, you know,

1149
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 4: who are enslaved in this country. And so now maybe

1150
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 4: if the claim was like, well, we're looking to, you know,

1151
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 4: try to lift up minorities for the sake of like diversity,

1152
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 4: then you might have a claim to including a transracial

1153
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 4: person for the sake of like advancing diversity. So it

1154
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 4: really kind of just depends on the particular argument. And

1155
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:13,440
Speaker 4: this applies in the case of gender too, Right, So

1156
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 4: in some medical context it will be relevant that you know,

1157
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 4: you weren't born like a natal female, and most contexts

1158
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:22,600
Speaker 4: it won't be relevant.

1159
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 2: Right.

1160
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 4: But if it's like, are you going to be eligible

1161
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 4: for you know, certain kinds of pregnancy related healthcare something

1162
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:32,400
Speaker 4: that might be covered by insurance, that's not going to apply,

1163
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 4: right if you don't have the capacity to get pregnant.

1164
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 3: Right, So, so in other words, it's like you could

1165
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 3: you sort of have your cake and eat it too.

1166
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 4: In a way, you can kind of grant the identity

1167
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 4: as legitimate, But saying it doesn't mean that in all

1168
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:47,480
Speaker 4: contexts we collapse everything and we just don't recognize any

1169
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 4: kinds of differences. And I think like Jewish conversion is

1170
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 4: a good example of this too, Right, So, like some Jews,

1171
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 4: like myself included, you know, are descended from like Holocaust survivors,

1172
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:02,080
Speaker 4: and that might make some people eligible for inclusion in

1173
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 4: certain certain things, you know, I don't know, maybe if

1174
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:07,080
Speaker 4: there's like, hey, we were doing a study on you know,

1175
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 4: we're doing some sort of a genetic study on people

1176
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:12,400
Speaker 4: who were from Holocaust descending grandparents, and we want you.

1177
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 4: But that doesn't mean that, like we can't acknowledge and

1178
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 4: accept Jewish converts even though you know, they're not going to.

1179
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:23,680
Speaker 3: Be eligible for that kind of study, let's say, or

1180
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:24,400
Speaker 3: something like that.

1181
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 4: Right, So it's just a matter of like accepting the identities,

1182
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:30,600
Speaker 4: but also accepting the ways that we have different paths

1183
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 4: into identities, right, some via birth. And this applies to

1184
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:38,960
Speaker 4: you know, like think about adoptive parents think about naturalized citizens,

1185
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:40,080
Speaker 4: like the ways that we come.

1186
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 3: To occupy categories.

1187
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:46,480
Speaker 4: That wasn't merely through birth, but was through actually like

1188
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 4: going through a process.

1189
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:50,680
Speaker 2: Does this topic come up in your classes?

1190
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 4: I do teach philosophy of race and racism, and I

1191
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 4: recently just I recently started talking about it, but because

1192
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 4: students requested it in the past, I really didn't.

1193
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 3: They were like, we wanted to translations.

1194
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 2: I was just going to ask you just sort of

1195
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:09,920
Speaker 2: like what what the what your feedback has been, what

1196
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 2: the reaction has been, because this is I think this

1197
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 2: is one of these things that we're going to It

1198
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 2: will come up again, and we're going to have to

1199
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:23,320
Speaker 2: sort of think about this right, think about why we're

1200
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:24,640
Speaker 2: feeling what we're feeling.

1201
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 4: I would say, you know, of course, any semester that

1202
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 4: I might be when I've spoken like students about it.

1203
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:35,280
Speaker 3: I mean, I think I have students to take my.

1204
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:39,960
Speaker 4: Classes sort of self select for philosophy, being philosophically minded,

1205
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 4: and so they're often I think comfortable with uncomfortable questions

1206
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:47,120
Speaker 4: and sort of you know, thought experiments involving different kinds

1207
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:51,360
Speaker 4: of identities and whatnot. But certainly I have had African

1208
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 4: American students who have a kind of like unease around

1209
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 4: it or who had like very strong feelings about the

1210
01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 4: whole doals all controversy when that came out, But I

1211
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 4: will say that in all my conversations in general, undergraduate

1212
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 4: students seem to be more open minded to transracialism, I

1213
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 4: would say than a lot of other folks I speak to. Now,

1214
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 4: that's purely anecdotal, but I guess I feel like there

1215
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:22,200
Speaker 4: might be a generational difference too. Also, because online we

1216
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 4: see so many people occupying identities that are different from

1217
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 4: their physical identities, right, So, like I think the virtual

1218
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 4: era also maybe makes people more open to different kinds of.

1219
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for joining us today.

1220
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:40,240
Speaker 2: It's been really interesting and I think this is a

1221
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 2: conversation that we're going to keep on having.

1222
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:44,479
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time. It was nice

1223
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 1: meeting you.

1224
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 2: Thank you, Rebecca, Thank you.

1225
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 1: Let's get into tails from the DMS. These are all

1226
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 1: the freakydieki, wicked and wild things you send us into

1227
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:55,800
Speaker 1: my DMS. Photos excluded.

1228
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 2: Do you get pictures? Oh?

1229
01:06:57,200 --> 01:06:59,840
Speaker 1: I get pictures? Really? Yeah, I'll show you later.

1230
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 2: I want to see yeah, yeah, I want to see

1231
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:09,320
Speaker 2: what do you say, Melissa, Oh, what's going on? Friends?

1232
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:12,360
Speaker 2: What do I always say? While Michael is a lawyer,

1233
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 2: he's not your lawyer, so you should get your own.

1234
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 1: Okay. This is.

1235
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 2: From are we finally going to do it? We're going

1236
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 2: to do it?

1237
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 1: Okay. I hyped this letter last week so hard that

1238
01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:29,920
Speaker 1: I got a lot of messages telling me that I

1239
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,440
Speaker 1: need to read it. The reason why I hyped it

1240
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:35,760
Speaker 1: is because it is actually wild, and I need to

1241
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:38,600
Speaker 1: say before we get into this, this is so alleged.

1242
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:42,280
Speaker 1: This is so very much. This is very alleged.

1243
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:44,680
Speaker 2: Okay, it is alleged, but can we also just have

1244
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:50,360
Speaker 2: a moment when this first came up, I read it

1245
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 2: and I said, huh.

1246
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:53,760
Speaker 1: I don't think we can read this.

1247
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 2: I don't know if we should do this.

1248
01:07:55,520 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 1: I said, oh, yes we should.

1249
01:07:57,320 --> 01:08:03,400
Speaker 2: Michael was just like, yeah's so this is very alleged information.

1250
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 1: This is third hand information. This is an email right

1251
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 1: after our gay Panic episode which was months ago, where

1252
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:15,960
Speaker 1: we talked about the case where there was a Jenny

1253
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:17,839
Speaker 1: Jones show and.

1254
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:20,679
Speaker 2: That back in the nineties and she had a show

1255
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:24,439
Speaker 2: where it was you have a secret crush and this

1256
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:29,760
Speaker 2: particular show, it was a gay man who had a

1257
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:34,639
Speaker 2: crush on a straight man, and that man he went

1258
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:37,240
Speaker 2: back to this man's house and he murdered this man.

1259
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 2: After which when he was arrested and was on trial,

1260
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 2: he then invoked this gay panic defense.

1261
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:46,200
Speaker 1: And said he was the gayness freaked me out so

1262
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 1: much that I it was so gay that I murdered him.

1263
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:54,400
Speaker 1: Correct And because it was so gay and freaked me out,

1264
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:56,720
Speaker 1: I should get a reduced sentence because I was just

1265
01:08:56,760 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 1: freaking out.

1266
01:08:57,240 --> 01:08:59,080
Speaker 2: It was a seat of passion crush.

1267
01:08:59,120 --> 01:09:01,880
Speaker 1: And so we talked a lot about that, and this

1268
01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:05,080
Speaker 1: guy did go away from prison. He eventually got, you know,

1269
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 1: convicted of murder. It was like very clear he murdered

1270
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:10,120
Speaker 1: this guy who went on Jenny Jones show and was like,

1271
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:12,960
Speaker 1: I have a big crush on you. So someone wrote

1272
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:16,600
Speaker 1: in and said, this is like so redacted. It is

1273
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:19,559
Speaker 1: an Epstein file at this rate, Like there's just like

1274
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:22,519
Speaker 1: one word that I can really read. But this is

1275
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 1: a person who was in the State of Michigan penitentiary

1276
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:31,719
Speaker 1: allegedly with the murderer of that guy from the Jenny

1277
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:35,080
Speaker 1: Jones Show. And this person says, as a gay man

1278
01:09:35,120 --> 01:09:37,880
Speaker 1: of a certain age, I was in the same facility

1279
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:40,719
Speaker 1: as mister Schmidt's. To be clear, we weren't really friends,

1280
01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:44,599
Speaker 1: but would exchange hello nods when passing each other as

1281
01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 1: we did attend some of the same programs. We weren't

1282
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 1: exactly strangers either. I was not at all that surprised

1283
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 1: when John made a pass at me in the library

1284
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:58,559
Speaker 1: bathroom one day. This is turning into some like fan

1285
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:04,760
Speaker 1: fiction heated rivalry. Yeah, however, this is this is the

1286
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:11,160
Speaker 1: ai fruit and vegetables. However, I was surprised to learn

1287
01:10:11,439 --> 01:10:17,600
Speaker 1: allegedly that mister Schmids was a great bottom. I'm not

1288
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 1: a huge fan of outing people in the public forum,

1289
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 1: so I should also mention that most people in our

1290
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:33,400
Speaker 1: prison were well aware of his years of quote public service. Anyhow,

1291
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:36,720
Speaker 1: love you both, Tibits, and happy to report I've been

1292
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:40,280
Speaker 1: crime free for about five years and loving life now.

1293
01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 2: Love big gay job.

1294
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:46,080
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Josh. This made my day to

1295
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:51,400
Speaker 1: receive this email. Allegedly, it sounds like you're a service

1296
01:10:51,479 --> 01:10:55,840
Speaker 1: top for the gay Panic defense power bottom community in

1297
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 1: the Michigan Thank you for your service topping these bottoms.

1298
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:03,160
Speaker 2: And again, I don't know how many times we could

1299
01:11:03,200 --> 01:11:07,479
Speaker 2: say that all of this is we don't know if

1300
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:08,120
Speaker 2: it's real.

1301
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:12,800
Speaker 1: It could be someone who's just fucking was completely It

1302
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:17,160
Speaker 1: read pretty honest to me, and I changed some words around.

1303
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:20,479
Speaker 1: I move things around to protect the innocent, and also

1304
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:22,439
Speaker 1: because I know you thirsty bottoms are out there are

1305
01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 1: just looking for any top. So I did change the

1306
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:28,920
Speaker 1: do yes, and I changed Josh's Yeah. I changed it all.

1307
01:11:29,240 --> 01:11:32,760
Speaker 1: But I was like, oh, should we not read this

1308
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:35,120
Speaker 1: because we're going to out someone. But then it was like,

1309
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:38,800
Speaker 1: he fucking murdered that guy. I'm sorry, you're Maybe he

1310
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:40,879
Speaker 1: kind of goes out there. I know the defense attorney,

1311
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:42,880
Speaker 1: and we shouldn't say that. But you know what, I

1312
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:44,720
Speaker 1: was comfortable enough reading it because I was like, this

1313
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:46,599
Speaker 1: is insane and juicy.

1314
01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:53,280
Speaker 2: That's why I didn't like, don't this feels like I

1315
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:53,760
Speaker 2: don't know.

1316
01:11:55,320 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 1: CJ loved itj ate it up.

1317
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 2: He was sipping t eating today that in the gator.

1318
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:04,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. He sent it right over to me, he said, Michael,

1319
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:08,000
Speaker 1: look at this one. Yes, all right, we got another email.

1320
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:08,760
Speaker 1: Do you want to read it?

1321
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 2: Hello, Michael and Melissa. I've been a business owner for

1322
01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:15,440
Speaker 2: almost five years now, and due to some unfortunate situations

1323
01:12:15,439 --> 01:12:18,760
Speaker 2: that have occurred with a previous business partner. I've come

1324
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:23,360
Speaker 2: to believe the civil legal system has no tea in

1325
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 2: trying to pursue an end with said business partner. That

1326
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:28,439
Speaker 2: has been a lot of money spent just trying to

1327
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:32,040
Speaker 2: get this person to respond to us. Eventually, my lawyer

1328
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:34,760
Speaker 2: said they did not believe it was worth putting any

1329
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:38,759
Speaker 2: more energy into. When discussing this matter with the friends,

1330
01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 2: she brought up her divorce and how difficult her ex

1331
01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:44,679
Speaker 2: was making things even though the agreements had been reached

1332
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:48,000
Speaker 2: up to this side. The message from society is that

1333
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:51,360
Speaker 2: these legal documents protect us. But what are people really

1334
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:54,120
Speaker 2: supposed to do when dealing with a bad faith actor

1335
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:57,800
Speaker 2: who simply ignores these legal protections and even worse, they

1336
01:12:57,840 --> 01:12:59,840
Speaker 2: get away with it because there are so few ways

1337
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:03,040
Speaker 2: to enforce legal agreements. That's actually a really good question. Yeah,

1338
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:06,280
Speaker 2: a person could easily spend a fortune trying to enforce

1339
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:09,200
Speaker 2: these things because it appears to be the only way

1340
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:12,920
Speaker 2: to enforce civil manners. What are people supposed to do

1341
01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:15,120
Speaker 2: when trapped in this cycle? Girl?

1342
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:17,800
Speaker 1: Eat them up? I love it. Thank you so much

1343
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:21,680
Speaker 1: for sending this in best regards A for to not

1344
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:23,599
Speaker 1: to use my full name. Okay of course this is

1345
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 1: I don't think we said any name it. Also, this

1346
01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:30,160
Speaker 1: is totally anonymous. I will say that. I mean I'm

1347
01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:33,599
Speaker 1: a defense attorney in criminal court and immigration court. I'm

1348
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:39,280
Speaker 1: not in civil court at all, and that is by choice.

1349
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:42,559
Speaker 1: But I do think that civil litigators, in civil lawsuits,

1350
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:44,800
Speaker 1: where we have plaintiffs trying to seek some sort of

1351
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:49,240
Speaker 1: you know, retribution, trying to get some damages, it is

1352
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:52,559
Speaker 1: an economic question and it really sucks like there isn't

1353
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:54,920
Speaker 1: I don't have an answer where I'm like, this is

1354
01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:58,120
Speaker 1: what you should do, especially because like the fact pattern

1355
01:13:58,200 --> 01:13:59,840
Speaker 1: is pretty vague. It just says I'm trying to get

1356
01:13:59,840 --> 01:14:02,599
Speaker 1: my out of a business partner. That is kind of

1357
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:05,040
Speaker 1: like anytime someone gets fired from a job and they

1358
01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:09,200
Speaker 1: seek an immigrant employment attorney. It's going to come down

1359
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:13,120
Speaker 1: to the economics of the case. Is the hours a

1360
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:15,920
Speaker 1: lawyer is going to put in on the case going

1361
01:14:15,960 --> 01:14:20,400
Speaker 1: to equal enough of a settlement to recoup that labor

1362
01:14:20,439 --> 01:14:24,040
Speaker 1: that they put into the case. And there's right and

1363
01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:26,800
Speaker 1: wrong in there. Right, like, these are businesses. We unfortunately

1364
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:31,200
Speaker 1: all exist in a capitalistic healthscape. But I do think

1365
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:34,360
Speaker 1: that something that stuck out to me was your lawyer

1366
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:36,640
Speaker 1: saying they didn't believe it was worth putting time and

1367
01:14:36,760 --> 01:14:40,720
Speaker 1: energy into. I unfortunately have to have that conversation with

1368
01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:44,360
Speaker 1: people more often than not, is this is not worth

1369
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:48,280
Speaker 1: your emotional energy and it's really not worth my time.

1370
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:51,280
Speaker 1: The economics of this case are just not going to

1371
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:54,320
Speaker 1: work out. This is the best thing to do for you.

1372
01:14:54,360 --> 01:14:56,760
Speaker 1: Sometimes people come to me, even with like an immigration case,

1373
01:14:56,760 --> 01:14:59,240
Speaker 1: where I'm like, the amount of money you're going to

1374
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:04,240
Speaker 1: spend on this, fighting this, working on this, and the

1375
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:08,400
Speaker 1: likelihood of a positive outcome is so low you seriously

1376
01:15:08,439 --> 01:15:10,400
Speaker 1: need to be thinking about whether or not you can

1377
01:15:10,439 --> 01:15:12,960
Speaker 1: pay rent and feed your kids with this money versus

1378
01:15:13,080 --> 01:15:15,240
Speaker 1: hiring me to work on it. I always have to

1379
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 1: have those like really got honest conversations.

1380
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:19,800
Speaker 2: And we need these are really good questions. Is it

1381
01:15:19,880 --> 01:15:24,360
Speaker 2: in the end? I think maybe? Again, I'm not a

1382
01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:29,600
Speaker 2: lawyer either, but like asking yourself, is it worth the

1383
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 2: time and money just to make a point? Right? I Mean,

1384
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:37,599
Speaker 2: I understand when you feel like you've been wronged by somebody,

1385
01:15:37,800 --> 01:15:40,600
Speaker 2: you want to like get them for it, right, But like,

1386
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 2: in the end, what will you really get other than satisfaction?

1387
01:15:45,360 --> 01:15:51,280
Speaker 2: Is bankrupting yourself worth the satisfaction of being right.

1388
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:54,880
Speaker 1: Yes, I read this thing on I want to say,

1389
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:58,479
Speaker 1: an article, but I know it was an Instagram. The

1390
01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:02,760
Speaker 1: best revenge is losing access to you. That is like

1391
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:07,880
Speaker 1: the best revenge rather than yeah, mailing them a lemon

1392
01:16:07,920 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 1: every day. So I just think, like, I mean, it's

1393
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:14,320
Speaker 1: a conversation to have with yourself. Again, there's not a

1394
01:16:14,320 --> 01:16:16,439
Speaker 1: lot of information about your specific cases of like a

1395
01:16:16,520 --> 01:16:19,120
Speaker 1: legal problem to solve here, but I do think it

1396
01:16:19,160 --> 01:16:22,719
Speaker 1: comes down to this, like we use lawsuits for emotional

1397
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:26,639
Speaker 1: reasons sometimes many times these are people with emotions that

1398
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:29,640
Speaker 1: we are managing when we're dealing with these suits. And

1399
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:32,280
Speaker 1: and there's that's very that's a very real reality. There's

1400
01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:34,360
Speaker 1: like a social work component to all of this work.

1401
01:16:34,439 --> 01:16:37,280
Speaker 1: So I think that is a real honest conversation to

1402
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:39,439
Speaker 1: have with yourself about whether or not this is right

1403
01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:41,680
Speaker 1: and whether or not this is a good use of

1404
01:16:41,720 --> 01:16:45,799
Speaker 1: your money, time and emotional labor. It might be yeah,

1405
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:47,960
Speaker 1: and like I'm not saying it's not right, but it

1406
01:16:48,439 --> 01:16:49,080
Speaker 1: also might not.

1407
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:52,639
Speaker 2: Like how long you've been doing this, you know, keep

1408
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:53,639
Speaker 2: digging this hole.

1409
01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:55,960
Speaker 1: Right, right, maybe it's better to take that money and

1410
01:16:56,600 --> 01:16:58,880
Speaker 1: do something that's really going to help you heal, yeah,

1411
01:16:59,040 --> 01:16:59,959
Speaker 1: versus making.

1412
01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:02,519
Speaker 2: A like start a different business, like why you know,

1413
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:05,080
Speaker 2: ask yourself why you're doing this? I mean, I get it.

1414
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:09,719
Speaker 2: Sometimes people they just want to win so bad. Yeah,

1415
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:13,000
Speaker 2: and they just keep doing something that's valid. No, no,

1416
01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:14,880
Speaker 2: it's and I'm not saying that that's a good thing

1417
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:17,320
Speaker 2: or a bad thing. You need to decide that is

1418
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:18,840
Speaker 2: a good thing or a backside for you.

1419
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:22,200
Speaker 1: That's a good conversation having yourself it is. That's rough,

1420
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:25,720
Speaker 1: or just mail them a lemon. Thank you so much

1421
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:28,800
Speaker 1: for joining us. I'll see you next week in Core

1422
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:36,639
Speaker 1: because I'm suing your ass. This has been an exactly

1423
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:40,879
Speaker 1: right production recorded at iHeart Studios, hosted by Me Michael Foot.

1424
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:43,719
Speaker 2: And Me Melissa malbranch. Our producer is CJ. Ferroni.

1425
01:17:43,920 --> 01:17:46,160
Speaker 1: This episode was edited by Nicholas Galucci.

1426
01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:49,400
Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker

1427
01:17:49,479 --> 01:17:50,400
Speaker 2: is Patria Cottner.

1428
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:53,000
Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Tom Bride Vocal with

1429
01:17:53,120 --> 01:17:56,479
Speaker 1: artwork from Charlotte Delarue and Manessa Lilac, with photography by

1430
01:17:56,479 --> 01:17:57,280
Speaker 1: Brad Obono.

1431
01:17:57,560 --> 01:18:01,080
Speaker 2: Brief Recess is executive produced by Karen Kill, Gareth Georgia Hart,

1432
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:02,439
Speaker 2: Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1433
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:04,840
Speaker 1: You can find me on Instagram at Department of Redundancy

1434
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:07,640
Speaker 1: Department or on TikTok at Michael foot.

1435
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:10,320
Speaker 2: And I'm on both Instagram and TikTok as Melissa Malbranch.

1436
01:18:10,560 --> 01:18:14,680
Speaker 1: Got legal questions, reach out at brief Recess at exactlyrightmedia

1437
01:18:14,760 --> 01:18:17,759
Speaker 1: dot com. Listen to brief Recess on the iHeartRadio app,

1438
01:18:17,920 --> 01:18:20,960
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, and of

1439
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:24,000
Speaker 1: course we're a podcasts with video. Search for brief Recess

1440
01:18:24,040 --> 01:18:24,639
Speaker 1: on YouTube