1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,200 Speaker 1: All right, welcome. You are listening to another episode of 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: the Mark Mass Show, where we talk about the decentralized Revolution. 3 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: Of course, we're talking about the way the world is changing, politics, finance, 4 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: and of course that's technology driving it. We're talking about 5 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: the decentralized revolution, and we are talking about bitcoin, of course, 6 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: each and every week. I'm coming to you from Miami, Florida, 7 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: where I'm here for the Bitcoin Conference. Two thousand twenty two. 8 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 1: About forty people expected to be here for the Bitcoin Conference. 9 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: It has really grown into something big. It's been pretty 10 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: amazing to watch it for a while. And I am 11 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 1: joined in the studio today with Austin Hill. Austin, thanks 12 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: for joining me, my pleasure, Mark, thanks for inviting me. 13 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: So Austin has been around UM two in the bitcoin 14 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: space for a really long time, and so I've been 15 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: around a long time, not as long as him. And 16 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,639 Speaker 1: it's uh boy, it's grown quite a bit, hasn't it. 17 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,319 Speaker 1: It's every day I wake up and I'm just kind 18 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: of living gratitude in the sense that you know, there's 19 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,639 Speaker 1: such an active community, there's so many people lending their 20 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: hand to creating the change in the world that I 21 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: think we all want to see. Yeah, and you know, 22 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: it's one person trying to change the world. You know 23 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: the old adage, Give me a lever long, large enough 24 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: and I can move the world. Yeah. Yeah, I don't 25 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: know anyone who has you know, the weight or the 26 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: kind of density of intensity to do the change that 27 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: the community is actually doing together. Let's let's talk about 28 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: you know, one thing that I get frustrated with people 29 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: a lot is that, um They're like, oh, bitcoin can 30 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: never be the you know, reserve current, you can never 31 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: be the medium exchange, you can never be whatever whatever 32 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: fill in the blank, right, And it's like, um, just 33 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: because it's not that today, it doesn't mean it can't 34 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: grow into that eventually. It's like if I saw like 35 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: a little oak tree that was this big, I would 36 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: never go back. It's like, well, it is an oak tree, right, 37 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: So let's talk about that. I was at a I 38 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: was at a at the at the Trammel Venture Partners 39 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: UM Fund yesterday meeting, and there was a Trammel and 40 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: uh Lop, Jamison Lop. We're talking and they're talking about 41 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: the early days of of the bitcoin message board and 42 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: the and the the faucets turning on and all the 43 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: bitcoin coming out of the faucets. People just thrown around 44 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: thousands of bitcoin at a time. Um, there was really 45 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: no market for them. So is that where you were 46 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: in those early stages or where'd you come in at UM? Well, 47 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: I had a couple of exposures to bitcoin. Um, a 48 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: lot of my work was pre bitcoin. So back I 49 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: created a company called Zero Knowledge Systems, which was a 50 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: cipher punk research lab, and we employed we had two 51 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: eight employees, including a large at that time. Now, you 52 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: said cipher punk, so a lot of listeners may not 53 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: understand what that is. So what what was the cipher punk? Um? 54 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: So the cipher punks was kind of ad hoc group 55 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: that create was created right around the time that the 56 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 1: FBI rated a bunch of hackers in something called Operations 57 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:54,679 Speaker 1: Send Devil where Sun Devil where they essentially rated a 58 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: bunch of teenage hackers, and they barged in and treated 59 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: them like essentially isis earists, And a whole bunch of 60 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: teenagers found themselves being essentially jackbooted by secret service FBI 61 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: held without their rights. You know, a bunch of very 62 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: innocent teenagers who were exploring computer networks. This is in 63 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: the mid to late nineties, late eighties, and that's what 64 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: led to the creation of e f F, which is 65 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: Electronic Frontier Foundation. It was created by John Gilmour John 66 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: Perry Barlow and created Lotus one, two three. John Gilmore 67 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: was employee number five at Sun Microsystems and John Perry 68 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: Barlow was the lyricist for the Grateful Dead. Okay, wow 69 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: what what what a group? And they kind of collectively 70 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: were like, we need to write a declaration of independence 71 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: for the Internet and we need to fight for civil rights, 72 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: which was before the Internet was even really a thing, 73 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: because I think that it existed, but WWW went live, 74 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: this is even pre that. Well WW actually was ninety 75 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: three when Timber is really published, when the first like 76 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: NCS mosaic started kind of coming a lot. The HTTP 77 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: protocol had been proposed, but there were no browsers. It 78 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: was all tax based um and so I at the 79 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: time was running one of the largest Internet providers in Canada. 80 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: But previously I had been part of the computer security community, 81 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: so a lot of my friends got arrested in that, 82 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: and I had before I turned eighteen, transitioned into doing 83 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: penetration testing for companies. So it's kind of smart enough 84 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,559 Speaker 1: to realize hacking was not a lifetime career. I wanted 85 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: to stay in and so I really cared about civil liberties. 86 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: I saw what was happening to my friends and so 87 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: in I ended up building the largest Internet provider in 88 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: Canada for dial Up, sold it, and at that time 89 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: Phil Zermanrin was being prosecuted for exporting p GP right 90 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: because they considered the p g P, which is basically 91 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: the encryption the encryption. They considered that munitions like weapons 92 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: because at the time only the military had encryption. Um well, 93 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: it was actually the math was known, but they created 94 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: something called the wasson Ear Agreement which creates created this 95 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: kind of control and treated math as an exportable munition, 96 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: like exporting nuclear technology. So you could be prosecuted in 97 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: the United States if you exported strong encryption. That's where 98 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: later my partner in block Stream out of back created 99 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: the t shirts with encryption algorithms and sold them so 100 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: people could wear munitions on plants. That's right. Um now, 101 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: so we had a thesis. After I sold my I 102 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: s P, I created a company which was, if we 103 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: can make encryption tools as easy as Netscape made browsing 104 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: the web, maybe we can build privacy and the base 105 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 1: layer of the Internet. We had kind of three maintenance. 106 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: One was an anonymous I P browsing, So we invented 107 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,559 Speaker 1: something called the Freedom Network, which was a precursor to 108 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: tour that the Naval Research Laboratory later came out with. 109 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: So we ran it. We had it running. Then we 110 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: tried to develop and roll out electronic cash, anonymous electronic cash, 111 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: and heading up that development was dr Adam Back, who 112 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: I hired to build our cash. And then on top 113 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: of that, we wanted to have private identity, the idea 114 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: that you could prove your over a team without ever 115 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: revealing your name. And so we said, if we build 116 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: these three kind of pillars, the Internet can actually develop 117 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 1: with privacy as the base layer, without surveillance capitalism. And 118 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: unfortunately we got way ahead of our skis. We grew 119 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: too fast. The dot com collapse forced us to fire 120 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: all our researchers, pivot the company. We ended up making 121 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: it financially successful, but in terms of the social and 122 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: civic goal us that we had to kind of promote 123 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: privacy in the world, I think we actually failed miserably. 124 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: It seems like it's an uphill battle. Well, starting from 125 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: the eighties when you did, or into the nineties, I 126 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: would imagine it's the uphill battle because even today, in 127 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: today's day and age, which has gotten crazy with the 128 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: dystopian future that we're living in. Um, even today, a 129 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: lot of people still don't understand why they even need privacy. 130 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: And I'm guessing back in the eighties and nineties was 131 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: probably even a much harder sell to try to explain 132 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: to people why they needed privacy beyond the beyond the 133 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: hacker community. Yeah. So it was so funny because all 134 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: of our market data and all the market research we 135 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: tried to do everything gave us these we really bad 136 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,119 Speaker 1: signaling in the sense that we would put a hundred 137 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: people in a room and say how much do you 138 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: care about your privacy? And it would score off the charts. 139 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: People were afraid to put credit card like, no one 140 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: was shopping online because we're afraid to put credit cards 141 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: off at this phase, this was I started. I started 142 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: the e commerce business in two thousand one at the 143 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: bottom of the dot com crash, and so right, I remember, 144 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: even in two thousand one, people were very afraid to 145 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: put their credit in. You remember, we had flus, we 146 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: had cyber cash. We had all these companies trying to 147 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: build alternative digital currencies. They were all centralized. But this 148 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: was the error when we tried to buy digit cash 149 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: out of bankruptcy. So we actually have the cipher punk 150 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: ideals and we're like, if we roll out anonymous show 151 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: like show me in totally, like David chomb private he cash, 152 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: it can actually form the commerce engione for the Internet 153 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: before credit cards were the north. So what you're talking 154 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: about there is is something I want to dig into 155 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: a little bit. UM talking about different versions of early 156 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: versions of cryptocurrency, digital cash, pre bitcoin, etcetera. Um, you're 157 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: listening to the Mark Moas show. I'm sitting down with 158 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: Austin Hill. We're talking from Miami at the bitcoino conference. 159 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: UM talking about the early days of bitcoin. Um and 160 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: so he he was there in the beginnings. We're gonna 161 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 1: talk about that. I want to talk about. Yeah, I 162 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: mean a lot of people, a lot of people use 163 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: this fake this analogy that you know, Bitcoin is MySpace 164 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: and this Facebook will come along. So so such an 165 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: old argument. But uh, but Bitcoin was not one of 166 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: the first versions. Of a matter of fact, there was 167 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: earlier versions. You worked on so I want to talk 168 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: about that. UM. I want to get into UM, we'll 169 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: talk more about this this privacy piece. UM. I want 170 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: to talk about kind of the the advancements of bitcoin 171 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: and kind of where we're at today with some of 172 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: this new technology development. People think it's like old technology. 173 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 1: So we've got a lot to dig into. Again, you 174 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: listen to the Markma Show. We're broadcasting from Miami with 175 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: the Bitcoin twit conference. I'll be right back with Austin Hill. 176 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: Don't go away, all right, welcome back. You are listening 177 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: to the Mark Ma Show. We're talking about the decentralized 178 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: revolution that bitcoin is creating right now, and we're broadcasting 179 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: from Miami from South Beach, Miami for the Bitcoin twenty 180 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: two conference. Supposed to be about forty thousand people showing up. 181 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: It's amazing and I'm sitting down UM with Austin Hill 182 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: right now talking about the early days of bitcoin. I mean, 183 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: we have forty thousand people here, and for sure there's 184 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: no way well maybe you could have predicted there could 185 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: have been forty thousand people here at this point. Even 186 00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: I was before the break, I was talking how I 187 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: started e commerce? Is this in two thousand one? And 188 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: I there was no Shopify, there was no like WordPress like. 189 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: It wasn't easy. And um, I went to these brands 190 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: and I said, hey, I built this website. I want 191 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: to sell your products on my website. And they laughed 192 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: at me. No one would ever buy anything online. They 193 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:14,599 Speaker 1: told me. That was in two thousand one. And so 194 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: we're talking here a decade earlier that you were working 195 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: on this stuff. So, um, the bitcoin is my space 196 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: and the Facebook will come out kind of analogy. But 197 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: bitcoin was not the first version of this. So you 198 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: were talking about did you cash and chom what he 199 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: was working on stuff? So give us some of that 200 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: background of versions that you were working on our scene 201 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: that kind of led into this bitcoin. Yeah. I mean 202 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: not only we, but there was a community that actually 203 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: emerged out of the cipher punk mailing list called Koda punks, 204 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: and they created the hind Now was the mailing list 205 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: like a physical male like snail Manili was email at 206 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: that time? Okay, total mail mailing list and use net 207 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 1: use groups if you remember back in the day, there 208 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: was like those were essentially like the message boards and NTPA. 209 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: So there were why wasn't on them at the time? 210 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: So I don't know. I didn't. I didn't really get 211 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: on the Internet until probably is probably by the time 212 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: I got on the Internet, they were still there. They 213 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: may not have been used as much, but so you 214 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: had used it, which was like a broadcast peer to 215 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: peer kind of medium, not peer to peer so much 216 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: as broadcast medium for newsgroups, which was essentially message boards 217 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: back in the day. And you had mailing list and 218 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: so there was cipher punks, and then offshoot of that 219 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 1: was Koda punks, and that's where the adage of cipher 220 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: punk's right code. Because the manifesto that Tim May wrote, 221 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: who was one of the co founders of the cipher 222 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 1: punk movement, was we believe that the tools of cryptography 223 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: are where we'll find our freedom. There's this new world 224 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: we can build in cyberspace where we exist beyond the 225 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: reach of government, beyond the reach of authoritarian companies. You know, 226 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 1: is that is that what it's always been like the 227 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: you know, the Pilgrims left for America to get away 228 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: from the here any of the government. Like people moved 229 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: west in the United States, they moved to the West 230 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: coast to kind of start this new frontier. People going 231 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: to the sea and now people going to the internet, 232 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: and like we're always trying to get away kind of 233 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: keep our sovereignty or autonomy from the state. Certainly, a 234 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: lot of the underpinnings in the cipher punk movement was 235 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 1: changing the balance of power exactly, the balance of power. 236 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: That's a key piece. That's where bitcoin does. It wasn't 237 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: so much that we don't need this or that this 238 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: is entirely bad. It was just if all the power 239 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: is concentrated in the hands of the few at the 240 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 1: expense of the many, then you have this imbalance of 241 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: power where you will always become victim to mass Yeah, 242 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: you know, mass thought, mass programming, um, you know, waves 243 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: of popular opinion. And your rights as a self sovereign individual, 244 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: whether it's property rights, freedom of speech, the rights to 245 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: express yourself should not be dependent on the whim of 246 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: the it's a it's a it's a difference of being 247 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: a customer who's valued and given value back, or a 248 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: surf or a subject who's just treated, or a or 249 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: an asset which spot and sold. You know. Sure, so, 250 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: so it's either like hey, the think of it, like 251 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: going to Disney World, I pay one flat fee and 252 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: I can choose to pay that fee. Now there's cheaper 253 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: amusement parks that go to if I want to pay less. 254 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: But they treat me as a customer, They value me, 255 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: they want my business versus the state that could just 256 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: take whatever they want without asking. So it's it's it's 257 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: it's changing the balance of power shifts them to kind 258 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: of take that more of a relationship. I mean, we 259 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: ran this famous ad when we thought we were flying 260 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: too high, too close to the sun, we had raised 261 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 1: too much Frenchshire capital. But we ran this national and 262 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: campaign that had children with barcodes on their forehead that 263 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: says I am not a piece of your inventory on 264 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: the Internet. I am in control. My data belongs to me. 265 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: You will not buy me and sell me. And embedded 266 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: in the bar codes we actually had a hidden cryptographic 267 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: message which got a lot of attention. Um, it was 268 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: great conceptual, great ad agency, total waste of money because 269 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: it was just too early. Then, well, you know, we 270 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: expected all these privacy signaling that we got when everyone's so. 271 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: I famously made this quote at a conference that was 272 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: kind of repurposed by a bunch of cryptography people. You 273 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: got a hundred people in a room and you asked 274 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: them if they care about their privacy, will say yes. 275 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: Take the same hundred people two weeks later, stick them 276 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: in a different room and asked them if they wanted 277 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: years free McDonald's in exchange for a DNA sample, and 278 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: will say yes. Because it's so ephemeral that people make 279 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: bad decisions about their privacy every day, because the consequences 280 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: of making a bad decision are so postponed, and it 281 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: requires such a level of technical, nuanced understanding consequences that 282 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: people It's like people who say I care about the Rman, 283 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna buy an SUV because they offer convenience. Well, 284 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: so the key word that you said there is nuance, 285 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: and today people are not able. The majority of people 286 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: aren't able to and I just did it myself. The 287 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: majority of people aren't able to pick up on that 288 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: nuance and that is what changes everything. So to your point, 289 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: when you say do you care about privacy, They're like, oh, 290 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: I have nothing to hide, I guess right. Then you're like, okay, 291 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: give me your phone, let me let me go through 292 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: your phone. They're like no, So if you kind of 293 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: put in that, like you know, like let me let 294 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: me browse through your history and see what you got, 295 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: and then they wouldn't want that. And then you know 296 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: they kind of have to see that that that example 297 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: there um and then and then even nuance back to 298 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: the SUV in the climate, Like, I love the environment 299 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: more than anybody. I surf, I'm in the water every day. 300 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: I'm in the mountain snowboarding all winter long. I wanted 301 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: to be preserved and clean for my kids. But I 302 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: drive a truck. But I've done the research, and I 303 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: have feelings about certain things. But there is nuance, and 304 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: I understand the consequences. I understand the cost, I understand 305 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: the actual and that effect. I've actually I'm very very 306 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: comfortable saying, Okay, you know where I live. I moved 307 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: to Latin America from Canada, and I'm like, okay, I 308 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: support green grids, I support smart grids. I support all 309 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: these things. But they don't exist. Yeah, you know it 310 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: sounds good if they don't exist. So um, so then 311 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: you're working on you're working on this, Uh, you worked 312 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: on previous versions of bitcoin. And I then went into 313 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: venture capital, where I invested in a bunch of startups 314 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: above and beyond just crypto and security. Um that was 315 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: in Canada created like a Canadian version of y combinator UM, 316 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: which is a very famous startup accelerator in San Francisco. 317 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: And uh, right around two thousand eleven, a bunch of 318 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: friends started messaging me saying, Austin, you've gotta pay attention 319 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: to bitcoin. And at the time, I had been retired 320 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: and I was trying to become a professional poker player, 321 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: very arrogantly playing way above my skill level and having 322 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: to humble myself UM, and I basically messaged them back 323 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: and they were like, Austin, this de cash thing is 324 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: finally real. And I wrote them back saying, basically, go 325 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: after yourself. I was like, I just spent eight million 326 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: dollars and ten years trying to do this. I'm glad 327 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: someone figured it out, but I'm not ready to look 328 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: at it. So so let's let's talk about that. I 329 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: want to UM because to the point that we're making it, 330 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: Bitcoin wasn't the MySpace. Bitcoin was many iterations later, and 331 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: they solved a problem that couldn't be solved. I think 332 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: that was kind of a key piece that differentiated it. 333 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: So I want to I I want to talk about that. 334 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mark Moa show. I'm broadcasting from 335 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: South Beach, Miami for the Bitcoin two conference. Um here 336 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: sitting down with Austin Hill, early early early bitcoin, cipherpunk. 337 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: We're talking about some of the early days and and 338 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about more and we get back about 339 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: how bitcoin wasn't the first version, what really changed from 340 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: the earlier versions, and then we'll bring it all the 341 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: way back to the forward to here. Forties people in Miami. 342 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: You listen to the Mark mo Show, sitting down with 343 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: Austin Hill. Got a lot more to go over. Do 344 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: not go away, I'll be right back. All right, Welcome back. 345 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: You are listening to the Markma Show. And we're talking 346 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: about bitcoin. We're talking about the decentralized revolution. We're talking 347 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: about why forty people are in South Beach, Miami right 348 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: now for the bitcoino conference. I'm sitting down with Austin Hill. 349 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: He's an early early, early bitcoin adopter, programmer, investor, and 350 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: we were talking about the early day. So before the break, Um, 351 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: you were talking about different versions of digital cash whatever 352 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: it's called cryptocurrency. I don't know what it was called 353 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: at that time, but but that led up to bitcoin. 354 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 1: But Bitcoin solved a problem that the double spin problem. 355 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: I guess that it was at the big differentiation double 356 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: spend had been solved before was show me an e cash, 357 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: but it depended on a central life server. Oh okay, 358 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: And so there were versions of the diggi cash mint 359 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: and we all played around with diggi cash um David 360 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 1: Chom and diggi cash went bankrupt and it was actually 361 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: patents that prevented anyone else from innovating. So patents held 362 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: by r s A and patents held by digi cash 363 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: ended up blocking most of the cipher punks who wanted 364 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: to build things open source and free because they were 365 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: worried about patent in frging and getting sued. So the 366 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: cipher punks were incredibly frustrated. There were various forms of 367 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: algorithms that were beginning to develop elliptic curve, uh, you know, 368 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: other mechanisms. There were some startups that actually tried to 369 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: do this. Brame Cohen, who invented bit torrent, tried with 370 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 1: mojo Nation. Incredible idea. It was a way to pay 371 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: for content and build peer to peer networking, and it 372 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: was built with the eye to replace Napster and ended 373 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 1: up becoming bit torrent. But They actually had a previous 374 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: startup that had payments, content creators, e commerce, everything called 375 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: mojo Nation. There were other attempts to do this um. 376 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: Adam Back had invented hashcash, which was a way of 377 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: developing digital scarcity in the form postage stamps for spam abuse. 378 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: That's when we hired him to come work for us 379 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: and run our ecash lap um. So there were a 380 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: bunch of was that was a decade before bitcoin um. 381 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: We collaborated a lot with Nick Sabo. We worked with 382 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 1: all these people. They were our friends, they were our community, 383 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: and we were all trying to figure out how do 384 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,719 Speaker 1: we build the perfect version of the cash um. A 385 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: lot of the cipher punk's missed or miscategorized Bitcoin early 386 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: because it was so far different from the vision that 387 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: we had, which was totally blinded privacy enabled the cash 388 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 1: by moving to a totally decentralized and solving the problem 389 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 1: of double spend in a totally different orthogonal way, which 390 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: was we'll give everyone a copy of the ledger and 391 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: we'll solve the Byzantine general's problem, which for listeners, was 392 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: a very famous problem in computer science, which very kind 393 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 1: of dumb down, which is if you assume that all 394 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,959 Speaker 1: your communication lines are untrustworthy and you want to coordinate 395 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: with multiple parties around the world. How do you end 396 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: up building trust when you can't trust what you send them. 397 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: This was known as the busy team in General's problem, 398 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 1: which was based off this kind of idea of if 399 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: a bunch of lieutenants are trying to attack a city 400 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: and you want to coordinate them all to attack at 401 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: the same time, but you can't trust your communication method, 402 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 1: how do you actually coordinate? And it was a famous 403 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: problem in computer science that Satoshi famously solved in a 404 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 1: very kind of weird way. He said, what if we 405 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: assume everything is public, accept some discordination, but every ten 406 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: minutes we force everyone to get on the same page. 407 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: And part of what prevented that from being working was 408 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: something called inflation control around digital scarcity, so we had hashcash. 409 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: One of the things that Adam Back had not invented 410 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: was a way to deal with inflation control. So essentially, 411 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 1: people with the most amount of money to spend on 412 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: CPUs could essentially inflate the economy and outperform everyone else. 413 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: Sotoshi invented something called the difficulty adjustment, which forced everyone 414 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: to come back to an even keel. So Bitcoin every 415 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: two weeks says we're going to monitor the health of 416 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: the network and we're going to reset programmatically in an openly, 417 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: in fair way. Yeah, for the for the listeners, the 418 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: difficulty adjustment is one of the very many things that 419 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: are just genius in bitcoin. And so what happens is 420 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 1: like with gold, for example, um gold has very low 421 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: stock to flow ratio, meaning that inflation, right the amount 422 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: of new gold produced is very low compared to the 423 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: stock of existing gold. But if gold, let's say right now, 424 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: it's an let's say went to ten dollars an ounce, 425 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people would go mind gold, and more 426 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: gold would come out of the ground. But with bitcoin, 427 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: if more people go mind bitcoin, it doesn't bring any 428 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: more bitcoin out. They just have to split the bitcoin 429 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 1: amongst all those new players, and new players can come 430 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: on or like what happened last year with China where 431 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: they knocked off six of the mining power than the 432 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: difficulty adjustment adjusted and then everything got back to normal. Well, 433 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: and that's what makes bitcoin so perfectly at least under 434 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,719 Speaker 1: every examination by true economists, even true gold bugs who 435 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: approach it honestly can say This is the best form 436 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: of sound money, the best form of non sovereign money 437 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: that's ever existed, because even when you start getting into 438 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: like new technology, singularity tech, there are new singularity tech 439 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 1: stuff I see every day in my venture capital investment. 440 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: Liquid plasma drilling, autonomous drone drilling that can go down 441 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: and it will be able to extract gold at prices 442 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: and a cost basis that no one's ever even imagined, 443 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 1: like a thousand x cheaper than to ad. And so 444 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: when people are able to extract gold at a thousand 445 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: x cheaper than today, we have no idea actually how 446 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 1: much gold is actually in the planet, And if they 447 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: start releasing we end up with the de Beers diamond situation, 448 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: where a few cartels can totally control the gold market 449 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: and you end up with a very centralized, essentially you know, 450 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: central bank approach to even gold. Same with asteroid mining. 451 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: So whatever ends up being that trigger, whether it's price increase, 452 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: evolving technologies, space exploration, gold is totally unpredictable, but bitcoin 453 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: just totally transparent. We know about that. Yeah, So let's uh, 454 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: let's let's fast forward a little bit, because we don't 455 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: have all the time in the world as as as 456 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: as fun as it would be to kind of go 457 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: back all the way through the all the way through that. 458 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: Um So, you work on the early versions, um a 459 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: decade before bitcoin came around. Bitcoin to your point, Stosian 460 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: Akamoto solve this general's problem. Um I want to kind 461 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: of move forward to kind of wear we're at today. 462 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: I know you're working on a bunch of new technology 463 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: that's kind of still kind of in that space before 464 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: we do. Um So. I was just interviewed recently two 465 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: weeks ago, I think at the Unconfiscatable conference over there 466 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: as well. Um I was interviewed for a documentary they're 467 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: doing about who is Satoshi Nakamoto? And uh, what's your answer? 468 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: Um So? I have three very firm beliefs on this 469 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: good um A, whoever he, she, or they are, they 470 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: have earned deserve and we should all respect their pseudonymity 471 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 1: because we have absolutely no idea of the personal risks, consequences, 472 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: and or long term effects that penetrating that pseudonymity by 473 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: speculation and setocia hunting may provide good good answer. Yeah, 474 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: how Fingy's wife was dealing with kidnapped requests, uh, threats 475 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: to her children and bomb threats for our house as 476 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: how Finny was dying where for the listeners heal. Finny 477 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: was one of the known early developers on on bit 478 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: quin and many people suspected he was so she secretly right, 479 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: which is why he was getting the bomb threats. How 480 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,239 Speaker 1: was a friend of ours. We worked with him at 481 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 1: p GP. He was an known cipher punk. He was 482 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: the first person to publicly received He ended up developing 483 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 1: a LS so he was in a wheelchair, trying to 484 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: take care of his family and enjoying his last days, 485 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: and he had to deal with people threatening to kidnap 486 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: his kids unless he paid a bitcoin ransom. So just 487 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: based off that second issue early people who were in 488 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: the community. There's a problem that David Schoon posted called 489 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: the dining cryptographer's problem, which is if enough people know 490 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: part of a secret, they can collaborate to hurt the 491 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: secret holder. So we early cipher punks all made a 492 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: pledge to each other that we would never do anything, 493 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: we would not compare and speculate to invade Totoshi's privacy. 494 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: It's good, I I mean, and and you're you're working 495 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 1: on technology to preserve privacy, so of course why would 496 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: you want to go and work against that privacy. You're 497 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 1: listening to the markma Show. We're talking about bitcoin. We're 498 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 1: talking about the early, early, early days of bitcoin, and 499 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: who is Toian Docomoda. I'm joined by Austin Hill. We 500 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: are in Miami for the Bitcoino conference. There's forty thousand 501 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: people here coming to talk about bitcoin fixing the money, 502 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: fixing the world. We're talking about the early days with 503 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: Austin Hill. When we come back, we'll finish talking about 504 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: Tocian Komodo, and then I want to jump forward and 505 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: talk about some of the new technologies that are being 506 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 1: built on bitcoin. Be right back, all right, welcome back. 507 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: You are listening to the Mark Moa Show. We're talking 508 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: about the the intersection of politics, finance and technology, which 509 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: of course is bitcoin. We're talking about the decentralized revolution 510 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: and how it is changing the world. We're talking from 511 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 1: Miami Beach where the Bitcoin conference is here with forty 512 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: thou people, and I am sitting down with one of 513 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 1: the early adopters of bitcoin, Austin Hill. We were talking 514 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 1: about before the break um, the early days, even a 515 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: decade before bitcoin was invented, in how they were working 516 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: on it. What it's solved. But Austin, before the break, 517 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: you were just kind of finishing up a couple of 518 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: points on situation Alcamotive. One, we should, um, we should 519 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: probably just preserve his privacy whoever it was, not trying 520 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: to hunt him down because it causes harm to other people. 521 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: And I think you had some more points that you 522 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 1: want to make their. Yeah, I mean the second was, um, 523 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: those of us who were in the early community kind 524 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: of felt an allegiance or an ideal commitment to if 525 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 1: we really wanted to, maybe we could break this person's privacy. 526 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: But why were we always in this right like, for 527 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: for privacy and for self sovereignty and for the economic 528 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: freedom that comes with non sovereign money. So what are 529 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: we doing trying to compare notes to invade anyone's It 530 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: may be someone in the room, It maybe one of 531 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: our friends. It maybe there are a bunch of cipher 532 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: punks who died and maybe someone who passed away and 533 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: most likely was but there there are there are suspect 534 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: lists that are longer and more well known than's ever 535 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: been discussed. But we agreed amongst ourselves let's not compare, 536 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: Let's not contrast, Let's not add to this idea of 537 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: setoc hunting. And the last one is the most actually 538 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: important one. UM in the idea of decentralization open source. 539 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: Every open source project has faced the idea of how 540 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: do you develop a leaderless hydra head And that's a 541 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: big piece. Uh. Lenox had Linus tor Volt. It had 542 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: a bunch of lieutenants, including people like Rusty Russell, who 543 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: built Lightning for Blockstream. Incredible developer. He spent twenty years 544 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: on the front line of trying to defend Linus and 545 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: uh you know some of his very unique personality and 546 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: strongly held opinions on how to build Lennox. But as 547 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: long as there is a central head, every single one 548 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: of these systems are weaker because there is someone you 549 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: can advocate against, there's someone who can influence of community. 550 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: And so if you think about it in the terms 551 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: of religion, you can be agnosted or whatever. Just historically, 552 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,719 Speaker 1: UM a religion where people can adopt the name of 553 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: the figurehead of the religion Buddha, Mohammed, Jesus, uh you know, Taoists, 554 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: Joseph Smith for Mormons, whatever, when people can interpret them 555 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: after they're dead and say I speak for this person, 556 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: and you have a leader, leader based organization that has 557 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: higher archies of organization. People love hierarchies of organization because 558 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: they love to be told what to do, and any 559 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: single structure like that makes it very very easy to 560 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: find an attack surface where you can weaken the underlying 561 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: organ By Bitcoin remaining flat and saying we are leader lists, 562 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: it comes at a cost. There is no spokesperson for bitcoin. 563 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: There are people who stand up and say I speak 564 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: for Bitcoin, who are horrible for bitcoin and actually promoting coins. Yeah, 565 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: but that cost is worth it because with no leader, 566 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: there is no central point of attack, and every other 567 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: coin who has tried to replace Bitcoin is weaker less 568 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: than and we'll never achieve its goals because it is centralized. 569 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: It has a leader, and it has a group that 570 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: more often than not has stolen from consumers to fund 571 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: their marketing budget to promote their centralized structure. Yeah, that's 572 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,719 Speaker 1: a great point. With bitcoin, we call it your reference religion. 573 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: It's like the Immaculate conception. It was just created. We 574 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: don't know who created it. We don't need to know um, 575 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: and it's better that we don't ever find out. Because 576 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: to your point, I agree with you. We don't want 577 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: a leader. We can see you know ethereum with atalic 578 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: butterin in order Charles Hoskinson and how that works, and 579 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: we definitely don't want somebody like that. And and even 580 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: the attack vectors, like you said, the attack service, you know, 581 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: someone to squeeze the top if if need to be whatever. 582 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: So all the things I agree with you on that. 583 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: Moving forward, let's say we run out of time here. UM. 584 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: So a lot of times we think that bitcoin is 585 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: old tech, UM, and you know, now there's all this 586 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: new tech and they have all this smart stuff built 587 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: into the into the base layer chain, UM. And maybe 588 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: they just they have this misunderstanding how technology works and 589 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: how it works in layers and how it scales. So 590 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: talk to us about some of the stuff that's happening today, UM, bitcoin. 591 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: You know, from being with blockstream and lightning labs and stuff, 592 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: obviously a lot of stuff being built on lightning labs. UM. 593 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: Are we at a point now building technology that you 594 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: maybe didn't think we'd get to and are you encouraged 595 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: by that or what do you think? I am stated 596 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: that today I'm an endless optimist when it comes to technology. UM. 597 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: I always see you know, class half four versus glass 598 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: half empty, right, Um, but I am still surprised at 599 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: how much work has been done by the community and 600 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: actually how fertile a ground that people are now planting season. 601 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: I was just in El Salvador. I was blown away 602 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: by the excitement the changes that are occurring there. Um awesome. Yeah, 603 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: so hard for people in traditionally North America because I 604 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: think we live such a privileged life and we're so 605 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: used to frankly, this kind of like terminal uniqueness. And 606 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: I refer to terminal uniques as as terminal disease, because 607 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: we somehow believe we're so unique in the world, and 608 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: but we were, in fact so privileged when you actually 609 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: look at the countries who are actually suffering from being unbanked, 610 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: suffering from no credit, suffering from you know, the only 611 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: credit market existing to be gangs and like overnight lenders 612 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: and like loan charts. Um, you know, the average loan 613 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: size in some of these countries is five and you 614 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: pay a week interest and that is the only loan 615 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: you'll ever get because banks refused to even open an account. 616 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: And so here we're like, you can be an eighteen 617 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: year old student who just has a name, and you 618 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: get two thousand dollars in credit or two to college exactly, 619 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: like we live such a privileged life that we're actually sheltered. 620 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: I think from how powerful the changes in bitcoin are occurring, 621 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: and so bitcoin, I think through better engineering, has actually 622 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: built a platform that will and is going to change 623 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: the world, and people don't see it because good engineering 624 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: takes time. The best analogy I give to this is 625 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: if you're waiting every day in line trying to get 626 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: to New York City from New Jersey and you're just 627 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: you're tired of traffic, and someone comes to you and says, 628 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: don't wait in traffic anymore. This weekend. We designed a 629 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: three layer bridge and we built it last week. Come 630 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: drive on layer two. I, as a driver, would be 631 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,439 Speaker 1: a little suspicious if they built that in a week. 632 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: Is that really something I really want to trust my 633 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: car weight on? Right? Like? Maybe I really want to 634 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 1: wait until their safety test civic engineering, safety engineering, stress 635 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: metal tests. Like there's a reason why some of these 636 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: infrastructure projects take time. I'm not going to hop on 637 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: a plane that says we have the cheapest tickets to 638 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: Hawaii while they strapped like fold out chairs to the 639 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: wing right, like, and so many of the ship coins 640 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 1: and the alt coins have taken that approach, move fast 641 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: and break things. We don't care about safety. We're all 642 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: about innovation, and we're willing to do it at the 643 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: cost of people's money. And that's one of the biggest 644 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,399 Speaker 1: risks that Bitcoin has actually have to suffer, is because 645 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,879 Speaker 1: it deals with the reputational damage of all these other 646 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 1: experimenters who are taking risk that Bitcoin chose not to take. Like, 647 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: there is a reason we do not give power users 648 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: who buy electricity from a nuclear power station control and 649 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: decision making on how the nuclear power station is made. 650 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: There are nuclear engineers who actually build nuclear power station 651 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: who deserved to actually design the safety protocols. You as 652 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: a customer should have no right or no say in 653 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: how that nuclear I don't know anything about. Yeah, but 654 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 1: we didn't take that approach with so many of these 655 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 1: ship cooins. So people create these dows, they create these 656 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: weird crypto they use all these things to invite usually 657 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: people to lose their money. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. 658 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: That's a good point. Also you think about like, um, 659 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: you know, back to kind of these leader uh not leaderless, 660 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: but having leaders platforms, so like metallic buter and goes 661 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: back and changes the monetary issuance of ethereum. And imagine, 662 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: if you know, they change the t c P i 663 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 1: P protocol with trillions of websites built on that, applications built, 664 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: and then they just change the protocol and doesn't work, 665 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: or gravity change and all these buildings came falling down. 666 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 1: It's a great point and that's one of the benefits 667 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 1: a bitcoin that nobody can control that. Um. You're listening 668 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: to the markma Show. I'm sitting down with Austin Hill 669 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: talking about the history of bitcoin, and it's important to 670 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: talk about it today because we're here in Miami with 671 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: forty people for the Bitcoin call o friends, and that's 672 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 1: what I got for you today. Thanks so much for listening.