1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: M. This is Mesters in Business with Very Renaults on 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: Bluebird Radio. This weekend. On the podcast, I once again 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: have an extra special guest, and I really mean an 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: extra special guest. Dr Mark Mobius is a legend in 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: the world of emerging market and frontier investing. He's one 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: of the first people, first Americans, who went out and 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: actually started kicking tires and looking at various companies all 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: around the world. He's been doing this so long that 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: when he first began, there were only six investable countries 10 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: that you could put your money into. The rest of 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: the world either didn't have public companies or public markets 12 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: you couldn't get cash in, and now if there weren't custodians. 13 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: It's amazing that this is the guy that essentially created 14 00:00:57,720 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: e M. There were a couple of other folks doing 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: something like this, but no one quite the way that 16 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: Dr Mark Mobius uh did. I found this conversation to 17 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: be absolutely fascinating. I had like another three hours worth 18 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: of questions for him. We we barely got through an hour. 19 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: If you're at all interested in what the process is 20 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: like of doing e M investing, what you find that 21 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: either makes you more enthusiastic about a company or a 22 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: company you're enthusiastic that when you go and kick the 23 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: tires you start to find out that hey, this isn't 24 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: has presented. Um. This is just an absolutely tour to 25 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: force fascinating conversation. So, with no further ado, my interview 26 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: with Dr Mark Mobius. This is Mesters in Business with 27 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: very Results on Bluebird Radio this week. My extra special 28 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: guest is Dr Mark Mobius. He is the founding partner 29 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: of Mobius Capital Partners. Previously, he spent forty years working 30 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: and traveling in emerging market and frontier markets. Before Mobius 31 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: launched in twenty eighteen, he worked with Franklin Templeton Investments 32 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: for more than thirty years, where he was executive Chairman 33 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: of the Templeton Emerging Market Groups. During his tenure there, 34 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: he helped to expand the assets under management from a 35 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars to over fifty billion dollars throughout Asia, 36 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 1: Latin America, Africa and Eastern Europe. UH he ran a 37 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: series of open ends, closed ends and private uh e 38 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: M funds, including private equity funds. He has also been 39 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: on the World Banks Global Corporate Governance for him UH. 40 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: Dr Mark Mobius welcome to Bloomberg. Thank you. It's great 41 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: being we do so. That is quite a storied career. 42 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: Let's start in the early parts of it. You you 43 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: took a very different route than most people in finance. 44 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: You worked at a talent agency. You were a community 45 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: Asians teacher, a political consultant. And am I reading this right? 46 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: Did did you actually market snoopy merchandise in Asia? Yeah? 47 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: I did, that's right. Uh. When I was in Hong Kong, 48 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: I had a consulting firm and one of my clients 49 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: was looking for people to manufacture of products. So she 50 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: had it was a company in San Francisco quoted Term Productions. 51 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: They had the rights for all of the snoopy merchandise, 52 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: all the penis missiondise and she asked me to look 53 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: for manufacturers in Asia. And one day I said, why 54 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: don't you start selling in Asia? And they didn't think 55 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: about that, so they said why don't you do it? 56 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: And of course that's how I got involved in distributing 57 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: these products in Asia, or at least in Hong Kong 58 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: and the greater China area. Is that how a kid 59 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: from Hempstead you grew up like forty five minutes from 60 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: where I'm I am right now? Is that how you 61 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: got involved in international business and investing? That happened the 62 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: way before that, because I got a scholarship to study 63 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: in Japan after I got my master's degree at bu 64 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: UM and that really changed my life because you know, 65 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: the culture shock of being in Japan, completely different culture 66 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: of an incredible country growing very rapidly at that time. Uh, 67 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: that was really what changed me, and I decided to 68 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: go back. I got my pH d and M I 69 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: T and then went right back to Asian sat and 70 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: working so Bu Masters Kyoto postgraduate work. M I T. 71 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: pH d. You also studied at Wisconsin, Syracuse, New Mexico. 72 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: That seems to be a very heavy focus on education. 73 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: It was. I was a professional student. I really didn't 74 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: want to leave a university UM and that's the reason 75 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: why I did a sort of round robin of these 76 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: different universities. But then finally when I got my pH d, 77 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: I said, Okay, let's let's get real, let's find out 78 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: what I you know, what I should be doing in 79 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: this world. And how did you end up at the 80 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: Mega International Investment Trust in Taiwan? Oh? That was? Yeah? 81 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: International Investment Trust was they Before that, I was working 82 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: for a broker in Hong Kong, uh it was a 83 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: British broker because DaCosta, and they sent me to Taiwan 84 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: to open an office and also sit on the board 85 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: of a joint venture they had with local banks and 86 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: some other British firms, which was the very first investment 87 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: management firm in Taiwan called International Investment Trust Um. And 88 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: eventually the guy that was running it to a left 89 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: and I took over. So I became the head of 90 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: that company, which they launched the Taiwan r OC Fund, 91 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: which I think the remnants of it are still listed 92 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: in New York, I believe. So over the course of 93 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: your career, you've traveled well over a million miles, You've 94 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: into a hundred and twelve countries. I have to ask 95 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: what are some of your favorite places to travel and 96 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: what are some of the favorite foods you've eaten. You know, 97 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: it's really interesting when I racked my brains and try 98 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: to figure out where I like it the best, I 99 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,239 Speaker 1: really can't come up with an answer because every place 100 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: I've been I've liked in some way or another. But 101 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: probably if you ask me right now, where would you 102 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: like to be, and probably would be the beach at 103 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: Rio de Janeiro in Brazil that might be a place 104 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: that would be nice to be, or a beach at 105 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: Cape Town, South Africa. I love bout or life. I 106 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: love beaches and that sort of thing. But frankly, I 107 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: lived in Japan and Korea and Taiwan, Philippines. I love 108 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: all these places. I really can't think of anyone that's 109 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: particularly favorite. Let's let's talk about food, because I recall 110 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: you hearing you once say that you eight scorpions on toast? 111 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 1: Is that right? Right? Is that sort of like a 112 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: soft shell crabs? What do they actually taste like? Actually 113 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: that was in Singapore in a in a restaurant that 114 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: specialized in special sort of medicinely beneficial foods, supposedly, and 115 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: this is scorpion on toast. It was sort of like 116 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: eating crispy shrimp. But it had a little bit of 117 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: a bite to it, you know, a little bit of 118 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: a speed taste to it. And I assume they removed 119 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: the poison first, or is that is that just digest 120 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: they do. They do remove most of the poison, but 121 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: some of the sting was still there. It's it was 122 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: very similar to in Japan if you have had fugu 123 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:52,679 Speaker 1: the blowfishes, it still has this tinging sensation on your lips, 124 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: which is supposed to be part of the experience. I 125 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: understand Singapore has become the food capital of Asia. What's 126 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: it like there? It is true, that's the Singapore has 127 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: an incredible variety of dishes because you've got not only 128 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: all the Chinese cuisines, which as you know, very varied. 129 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: I mean you've got cuisines in China that go from 130 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: very very spicy, too very bland, and so forth. But 131 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: then you have the Malaysian and Indonesian foods, and added 132 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: to that, of course, you have the Indians of foods. 133 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: So it is true. It's Singapore is quite buried in 134 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 1: its menu. Huh. Quite mouth watering. So let's talk a 135 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: little bit about Franklin's Tappleton. No less than Sir John 136 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: Templeton asked you to run their Emerging Markets division in 137 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: tell us what e M was like back then. I 138 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: have to think the world has changed a lot in 139 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: the ensuing thirty plus years. Oh, that's for sure. I 140 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 1: mean in nineteen eight seven, I was sitting there in 141 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: Taiwan running these that uh, the the fund management company 142 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: that was doing the Taiwan Fund International Investment Trust, and 143 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: I get a call from actually one of the deputies 144 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: of John Templeton. I had made presentations to him in 145 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: his space in Nasal Bahama's a number of times, and 146 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: I guess he remembered me. And uh, as you know, 147 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: at that time, emerging markets were just the term was 148 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: coined by the International Finance Organization and they had they 149 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: had launched the Emerging Markets Fund, and then Templeman said 150 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: that he wanted to do the same thing. So he 151 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: approached me and said, let's raise a hundred million dollars 152 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 1: in New York, uh and do this Emerging Markets Fund um. 153 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: And it was a great temptation for me because it 154 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: enabled me to really expand out of Taiwan into something 155 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: really exciting. But it was a tough decision as well, 156 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: because we didn't really know what I was getting into. 157 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: And we opened a small office in Hong Kong, had 158 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: I hired two analysts to Chinese analysts, who, by the way, 159 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: stayed with me for the thirty years I was in 160 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: frank And Yeah, and we started with only six countries. 161 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: You must remember in those days, most countries did not 162 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: welcome fun investment. Uh, they were also either socialists or communists, 163 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: like China and Proussia. Eastern Europe was out of the question, 164 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: of course. So we had only six markets in which 165 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: to invest, and then we started the expanding. Gradually markets 166 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: opened up and eventually we were investing in something like 167 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: seventy different countries around the world. Do you recall what 168 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: the original six countries were. They were Hong Kong, of course, 169 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: the Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, and Mexico. H No Japan, 170 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,839 Speaker 1: No South Korea, that's right, No Japan, No South they 171 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: were considered they were no longer considered e M countries. 172 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: You know, actually it's tore It was, but it was 173 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: closed for one reason or another. There were difficulties in 174 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: getting in it. Must remember, you know, the whole idea 175 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: of getting a custodian they keep your securities. All of 176 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 1: these technical issues were there. And Japan, of course, had 177 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: it graduated into a developed country by that time. So 178 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: back in the n I'm going to assume there was 179 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: no remote access. It was always boots on the ground. 180 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: Is that how research was done? Oh, that's for sure. 181 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: Don't forget no internet no laptop, computer, no cell phones. Um. 182 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: You know, the technology has to really change things tremendously. 183 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: So tell us what do you learn from traveling as 184 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: opposed to just a phone call, assuming you can actually 185 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: call anybody. Well, you know, it's true that we're able 186 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: to do a lot on the phone these days, and 187 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 1: particularly with video conferencing, because you could see the people. 188 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: But there's nothing like being in a country, smelling the 189 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: smells that you get, looking at the people, getting a 190 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: feeling for how people are living. Um. And then you 191 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: walk into a company, you look around, you observe what 192 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: the nature of the company is like, what is the 193 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: morale of the staff, etcetera, etcetera. So there's nothing that 194 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: beats that being on the ground and seeing for yourself 195 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: what's going on. UM. So we always think that it's 196 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,599 Speaker 1: important to be traveling and visiting companies as much as possible. 197 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about your process. Is 198 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 1: it top down you start in a country and then 199 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: dig into individual companies or do you go bottoms up, 200 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: start with the company and then work your way through 201 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: that local either country or region. Well, we like to 202 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: say that we're bottom up invests in the sense that 203 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: we look at the companies intensely, but that doesn't mean 204 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: we ignore the macro the top down approach because obviously, 205 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: you know, let's say, if we wanted to invest in 206 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: Sri Lanka today, Uh, obviously you don't have to look 207 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: at what's happened to the currency, what's happened to interest rates, 208 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: what the government is doing, what kind of restrictions are 209 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: taking place, uh for foreign investors to invest, that sort 210 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 1: of thing. But after those critical issues currency ability to 211 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 1: move money in and out, then we dig in to 212 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: the individual company because that's the key. Because one of 213 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: the things that I found over the years that a 214 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: company can survive in a very difficult environment, and you 215 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: shouldn't be afraid to go into a country where the 216 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: environment is not ideal as long as you can get 217 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: money in and out. That's really the key. Even the currency, 218 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 1: if the currency is declining or getting very very weak 219 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: for one reason another, there's still opportunities because, for example, 220 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: an export oriented company can do very well in such 221 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: an environment because they're earning in dollars and their courts 222 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: are in local currency. So uh, I would say, yeah, 223 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: we're more ground up and more fundamentally company oriented in 224 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: the way we approach things. So today I could fly 225 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: into a different country where I don't speak the local language, 226 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: use my iPhone with Google Translate or any one of 227 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: a dozen other translation apps, and be able to communicate 228 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: with people. What did you do back in the eighties 229 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: and nineties, I'm assuming you don't speak dozens and dozens 230 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: of languages. What happens when you show up and you're 231 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: not fluent? Well, that's what they very interesting and great 232 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: good thing that we found when we travel and went 233 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: to these countries is that you always found people who 234 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: spoke English, particularly and you were visiting listed companies, companies 235 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: listed on various stock exchanges, which is where we were looking. Um. Inevitably, 236 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: in every company you would find somebody who's going to 237 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: be able to translate for you. And more often than not, 238 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: the top management were English speaking, English educated, um, you know, 239 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: so they were. It was quite easy to get information 240 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: and get face to face communications with these people. There's 241 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: some exceptions, but not that often. It was quite good 242 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: and quite easy to get people to communicate. Um. And 243 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: even if a company uh officials did not speak English, 244 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: we were able to find translators easily enough. And who 245 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: else did you speak to. I mean, obviously you spoke 246 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: with management, but but did you speak to local customers 247 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: or or workers at at various places. How comprehensive was 248 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: your boots on the ground due diligence. Well, that's one 249 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: thing we found much too to our chagrin, that don't 250 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: talk to just the top management. We made many mistakes 251 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: by just talking top management. But you've got to talk 252 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: to the staff, talk to the customers, talk to competitors. 253 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: Competitors are great source of information because if you have 254 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: a competitor who is speaking very highly of the company, 255 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: that's a pretty good sign of the quality of the 256 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: company you're talking about. Uh. And then we also talk 257 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: to government officials. You know, are there any transit transgressions 258 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: on the part of the company, or any problems in 259 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: the industry. So you really have to open up the 260 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: wide variety of sources. And by the way, that's one 261 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: of the advantages of being on the ground as well, 262 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: to say the least. So when we look at the 263 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: environment today, active by side managers they use a lot 264 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: of financial models, they use big data, they have the 265 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: ability to crunch a lot of economic assumptions. What was 266 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: it like in the eighties and nineties. I'm going to 267 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: assume you didn't have access to all that modern technology 268 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: and AI. That's right, they were not available. Of course, 269 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 1: I don't forget. This was the age before miss it, 270 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: the mith It program, where you had to separate brokerage 271 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: fees and research. Uh, and in those days we were 272 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: able to get an awful lot of information pre of 273 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: charge from brokers who we were dealing with. But you 274 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: might not say pre charge because we're paying them brokerage commission, 275 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: but we were going to give them owners anyway. So 276 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 1: UM it was very easy to get information, a lot 277 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: of research from brokers we're doing research, and they were 278 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: also local research institutions who produced research. So gradually the 279 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: knowledge built up. Of course, at the beginning in eight seven, 280 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: there is almost nothing available, but by at time there 281 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: was a lot of information throwing out of these various firms, 282 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 1: really quite fascinating. So let's talk a little bit about 283 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: UM traveling to different countries and hunting down specific companies. 284 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 1: What do you recall as a particularly spectacular investment that 285 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: you discovered after traveling to a country, and we're just 286 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 1: really surprised by what you found researching a company, probably 287 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: The best example was in China. Um. That was when 288 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: we discovered a company that in China that made the 289 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: gears for wind power companies. That it's about fifteen years ago. 290 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: That's when you know, the whole area of wind power 291 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: was coming up strong and this company was doing incredible work. 292 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: We visited the factory and I noticed that the machine 293 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: tools they were making were top notch, you know, automated 294 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: machine tools, and they were doing very high quality work 295 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: according to their customers. So we decided to invest in 296 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 1: that company, and that turned out to be an incredible investment. 297 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: Was you know, the double triple price we paid. So 298 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: that was probably one good example of you know, doing 299 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: on the ground research and finding something that other people 300 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 1: were not noticing. And by the way, I think that's 301 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: one of the features of good investing is finding something 302 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: that other people are not finding. In other words, try 303 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: to discover a company that has not been yet so 304 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: called discovered by the market. What what about the opposite. 305 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: Did you ever show up somewhere excited about a specific 306 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,719 Speaker 1: company and owing to discover, hey, this isn't what we 307 00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: were hoping for. Oh many, many, many times. Uh, and 308 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: of course many times we were fooled by uh, the 309 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: information we were getting um and you know, very very 310 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: missteps along the way. It's it's it's it is the 311 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: feature of investing anyway, as you know, but in emerging 312 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: markets you have to be special and be very, very 313 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: extra careful. So so when you started doing this in 314 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: the late eighties, was anyone else from the United States 315 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: or other US investment firms actually traveling the world looking 316 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 1: at companies you sort of the Indiana Jones of this. 317 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: How long did it take for other investment firms to say, hey, 318 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: we need an e M or a developed x U 319 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 1: s UM fund and we need someone like Mobius out 320 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 1: kicking the tires. Well, it took about five years for 321 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: you know, the field to grow where you know, once 322 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: they saw the results that we were getting, a lot 323 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: of people began to jump in the aggreing. And you 324 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: must remember that the pioneer on this was the i 325 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: f C, the International Finance Corporation. They started emerging markets 326 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: and social funds about it liter earlier than we we 327 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: started our funds. So they were on there, as you know, 328 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: they were the precursor the index of course, there's capital 329 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: and national was the They were the people that were 330 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 1: doing researchers of companies all around the world. So you 331 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: started venturing into Africa way earlier than just about everybody else. 332 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: What led you to discover that continent and how I 333 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 1: have the results been? Well, you know, as the assets expanded, 334 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: we really had to find new opportunities everywhere, and Africa 335 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: was wide open. It was just there was so much there. 336 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: And of course visits initial business there really excited us 337 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: because we realized this is ground that has not been 338 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 1: uh killed in any direction, lots of opportunities where there's 339 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: no information, which is an advantage because if you're on 340 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: the ground, if you're able to travel these places and 341 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: get information, then you have an edge on any competitor 342 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: that wants to come in. So I saw tremendous opportunities 343 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 1: in places like South Africa, in Nigeria, uh in Kenya, 344 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: and of course Africa is so huge, there's so many countries, 345 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: there's tremendous opportunities. Of course, the big challenge was to 346 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: find a equity market of stock market and liquidity. Of course, 347 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: one of the biggest challenges you get, of course is liquidity, 348 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 1: getting enough liquidity to be able to invest significant amounts 349 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: of money you have to be able to move in 350 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: and out and not completely disrupt the price or the 351 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: market exactly. And by the way, that was one of 352 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: the reasons why we got involved in private equity because 353 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 1: we found so many of these opportunities, but some of them, 354 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: of course we're not listed. Some of them were listed, 355 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 1: but there was no liquidity at all, and we decided, hey, 356 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: why don't we do a private equity fund where you know, 357 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: the holding periods for the clients would be five or 358 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: six seven years. Then we can develop these companies uh 359 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: and bringing them to the market with more liquidity as 360 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: we expand. So that that was a very very good 361 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: move for us. And anything stands out as a particularly 362 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 1: exceptional or shocking story that didn't involve finance or a company. 363 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 1: When you were when you were traveling all over the world, 364 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: I have to imagine there were some pretty memorable snaff 365 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: foods along the way. Well, we got caught in the 366 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: revolution in in Philippines where they're shooting at the hotel 367 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: and we were able to get out luckily by helicopter 368 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: for the roof of the hotel. That was one example. 369 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: But they were few post calls like that, but never 370 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: deterred US for some reason. Maybe we were too innocent, 371 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: but you know, we have to roll with the punches, 372 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: so to speak. But there's always some kind of tremoil 373 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: going on us. You know. I was recently in Sri 374 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: Lanka and uh, you know, you can still work and 375 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: you can still visit companies, but meanwhile people are demonstrating 376 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: on the street. Wow, that's that's pretty amazing. So let's 377 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about emerging markets versus the United States. 378 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: This I think the twelve or thirteenth year prior to 379 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: two where the US has outperformed emerging markets. I think 380 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 1: that's the longest run we've seen in a number of decades. 381 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 1: What's it gonna take for e M to make its 382 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: comeback against the United States and two? Maybe this is 383 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: the year. That's a great question. Uh. One thing you've 384 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: got to realize is that the world has changed to 385 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 1: the extent that a lot of the emerging markets growth 386 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: is now in the United States because US companies are 387 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: manufacturing and selling and buying from emerging countries. When we 388 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: saw in the whole premise of going into emerging markets 389 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: was to capture the growth because these countries were these 390 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: were the low and middle income countries on a per 391 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: capita basis, UH, they were growing at more than double 392 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 1: that of the developed countries US, Japan, Europe, Australia, New Zealand. UH. 393 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: Now what's happened is that a lot of these companies, 394 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 1: this is in the US, might even be called emerging 395 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: market companies. For example, let's take Apple, Now what percent 396 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: of their manufacturing is done in Asia, let's say, or elsewhere, 397 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: and what percent of their sales are in emerging countries 398 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: like China. So it's become much more different called to 399 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: define what is an emerging market And if you travel 400 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: to some of these countries, you'll be amazed at the growth, 401 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: at the way they've developed. UH. And you know, just 402 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: just the infrastructure is just incredible. What's happened in many 403 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: of these countries. So it's become more and more difficult 404 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: to define specifically what is an emerging market company UM. 405 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: And even the definition of country to more country is blurred. 406 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: For example, let's say Korea. Korea was a very poor 407 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: country when we started in Today it ranks as one 408 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: of the on a per capita basis, one of the 409 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: richer countries. So UH, the Koreans have also always been 410 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: saying recently that they are not an emerging market country, 411 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: They're more developed country, which I think rings true. So 412 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: do you still do the same degree of traveling you 413 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: were doing years ago? Are you, you know, on the 414 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: road eight months a year. What's it like today? Well, 415 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: I try to travel as much as I can, but 416 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: with COVID it's been so difficult. Thankfully, things are loosening 417 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: up and I'm able to travel. I based myself now 418 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: in Dubai, and of course I have a place in Singapore, 419 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: but Singapore has been so restrictive. Thankfully they're opening up, 420 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: uh and other countries are beginning to open up recently. 421 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: As I said, I've been in Sri Lanka, in Thailand, um, 422 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: and I'm trying to get out to more countries as 423 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: they open up and they get rid of these lockups. 424 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: Of course, China is off the chart in terms of restrictions, 425 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: so that's out of the question at the stage. But yes, 426 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: I'm trying to travel as much as I can, so 427 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: Dubai and Singapore. You know, if you're bicoastal, if you're 428 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: in New York and London, or New York and in Francisco, 429 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 1: l A that's what they would call it. What do 430 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: you call have splinting your time between Dubai and Singapore. 431 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: Those just base of operations for when you're UM shooting 432 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: off to those parts of the world. Yeah, Singapore is 433 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: great for visiting the rest of Asia. You know, they're great. 434 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: A lot of it has to do with the airlines. 435 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: Singapore Airlines. We've had great connections all over Asia, and 436 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: it's a great airline, great airline, and Emirates is even 437 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: a better airline in some ways. Uh, Emirates goes all 438 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: over the world, and I'm able to come here to Europe. 439 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: I'm now in London and to the US very easily. 440 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: Uh excellent airlines. By the way, there's two good examples 441 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: of companies in what were emerging markets or maybe you 442 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: could still call them emerging markets that have really surpassed uh, 443 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: the USA air lines in terms of service quality, etcetera, etcetera. So, yeah, 444 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: these two bases are good, probably because of time zones. 445 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: In in Dubai, the time zone is very convenient, but 446 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: also because of the convenience of travel really quite quite interesting. 447 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: So so let's talk about some of the bigger issues 448 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: going on UM globally. Today, Russia has become a bit 449 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: of an anathema uh internationally given the invasion of Ukraine. 450 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: Do we just write down our Russian stocks to zero? 451 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: Are they ever going to be investable again in our 452 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: lifetimes or are they just a total pariah state at 453 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: this point. Well, in our fund, we were out of 454 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: Russia about a year ago because we didn't like the 455 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: corporate governance issues that we're popping up, you know, the Oligoux, 456 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: we're taking over a lot of the companies. But I'm 457 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: not writing off Russia by no means. I think we will. 458 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: There'll be a day when we're able to go back in. 459 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: And in fact, I personally keep an account in RUSSI you, 460 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: and of course the stocks is a very small account, 461 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: but the stocks on that account away down. But I 462 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: think eventually this will come back. But for Fund, we 463 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: will not go in until things change dramatically in Russia. 464 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: And is that going to require Putin to leave power 465 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: in order for the country to be investable again or 466 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: can something significantly change to rehabilitate their image in the world. 467 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: It will probably mean put leaving, probably because it would 468 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: require complete about face, and it would require all of 469 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: the Western countries to UH stop these sanctions because rust. Remember, 470 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: even if I wanted today to invest in the Russian stock, 471 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: I couldn't do it because the custodians. I'm not operating there. 472 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: You know, you talk about talking about being canceled. It 473 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: looks like very much like Russia was now. Previously, you 474 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: were on the board of directors of Luke Oil. I'm 475 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: assuming that ended some time ago, if I recall reading correctly, 476 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: and you were also involved with O m V Petrome 477 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: in Romania, tell us a little bit about those experiences. Yeah, 478 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: m B Petrome came out about that was about ten 479 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: years ago. UM we got the contract to run the 480 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: country fund for the Romanian government. It was quite an 481 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: unusual situation where they wanted to compensate people who had 482 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: lost their assets during the Chitsco period, and they put 483 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: about all the government companies into a fund and UH 484 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: we won the contract to run that and one of 485 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: the companies was Petrom UH and omb the rush of 486 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: the Austrian company H came in as a majority shareholder 487 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: of that company and we were still holding it and 488 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: they asked me to be on the board. So we 489 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: were looking at and getting very d to be involved 490 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: in many of these Romanian companies, and it's a great 491 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: example of where a country, you know, took the decision 492 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: to sort of privatize state owned companies that were previously 493 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: very corrupt and made a tremendous success of it. And 494 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: also kudos go to the European Union because being a 495 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: member of the European Union, whenever we went to court, 496 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: there were tremendous amounts of court battles. Uh, the judges 497 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: would be looking over their shoulders to Brussels. So we 498 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: were often treated much fairly then we would have been 499 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: if they weren't the members of the European Union. Alright, 500 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: so so let's talk a little bit about China. Last 501 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: year they pretty much went after their own um tech sector. 502 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: Do we first, do we still consider China an emerging market? 503 00:32:53,040 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: And second, are they another country that's becoming increasingly uninvestable. Yes, 504 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: it's still an emerging country defined there's a low and 505 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: middle income country, so that's definitely there. The problem with China, 506 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: of course, has gotten too big in the the spectrum 507 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: of emerging market economies, because if you look at the 508 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: Emerging Markets indexes, you will find that it's thirty or 509 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: so China. So whenever China gets hit, emerging markets look terrible. 510 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: And that's the reason why a lot of people have 511 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: been sort of turned off because as you know, so 512 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: many people are buying et f s and index funds um. 513 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: But it's a good example of where government policy can 514 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: have a very big impact on your companies. And the 515 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: measures that China took against the large tech giants in 516 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: China really damage the market dramatically because of the impact 517 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: of those v companies on the China Index. So there 518 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: are cases where you've got to pay attention to those 519 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: macro moves by the governments, but you have to focus 520 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: on the economic uh or financial aspect rather than purely 521 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: political aspects unless and there is a very important point, 522 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: unless the political structure begins to change against free enterprise, 523 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: against companies. And a good example of that was in Venezuela. 524 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: We were in Venezuela when Chavez came into power and 525 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: he started talking about taking over companies, about nationalizing companies, 526 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 1: and immediately we got out because we realized that this 527 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,919 Speaker 1: was not going to be very conducive. And it's good 528 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: we did get out because companies that we owned of 529 00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: really crashed and there was a very bad situation. So, 530 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 1: but that doesn't recently, that hasn't happened that often. But 531 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 1: China is probably a good example where government policies can 532 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: really have a very damaging effect on individual companies. What 533 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: about inflation, It's been a giant topic here in the US, 534 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: and we've seen numbers around the world have spiked up. 535 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: How does inflation affect emerging markets? Well, you know, the 536 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: great thing about inflation is that if you're equity investor 537 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: in other ways, an investor in companies that can adjust 538 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: their pricing in line with higher prices, then um inflation 539 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: is not a problem. In fact, sometimes it's it's an 540 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: advantage because you see prices moving and if you're in 541 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: a company, as I mentioned, with that pricing power, you 542 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: can do very very well because they're moving up prices 543 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: that are rapid rate. It's interesting if you look at 544 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,800 Speaker 1: the correlation between inflation numbers and let's say the S 545 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: and P five is very o correlation in those numbers, 546 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: and that's probably one of the reasons because good companies, 547 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: you know, that are adjusting their prices in line with 548 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: the devaluation of the currency can do very well. By 549 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: the way I pointed out in the book I just 550 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: came out with about inflation. It's called the inflation myth. 551 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 1: And I mentioned this this phenomenon, that that emerging market 552 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 1: inflation is actually not a problem. That's great provided and 553 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: this is the big proviso you're in companies that have 554 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: pricing power. Really interesting, the inflation myth and the wonderful 555 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: world of deflation. Yes, and you know I mentioned that. 556 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,399 Speaker 1: The reason why I put that in the Wonderful World 557 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 1: bastion because most economists hate deflation. But I argue that 558 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 1: deflation is a good thing because deflation means that costs 559 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: are going down and people are benefiting from lower and 560 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: lower costs. And what I point out in the book 561 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: is that technology is taking things better and cheaper in 562 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: terms of pricing power, in terms of earning power. Um. 563 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: And I've seen that in my lifetime. You know, when 564 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: I had my own research from I had to carry 565 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: around a selectric typewriter. There were no laptops, you know, 566 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: no Word, no Excel, nothing of that sort. Um. And 567 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:23,840 Speaker 1: when you know what I mentioned the young people, I 568 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: had a selectric typewriter, They asked me, what is that so? Um? 569 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 1: The technology has really made life so much easier and 570 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: more affordable for so many people. I don't disagree. We've 571 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: been in an era for the past I don't know, 572 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: thirty years that's been primarily deflation. With these casual spikes 573 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: of inflation. I find it kind of hard to understand 574 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: how all of these older economists keep talking that we're 575 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: going back in the nineties seventies, when the world today 576 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: it seems so different than it was back then, exactly exactly. 577 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: You talk to any young person, you realize that they 578 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: are even benefiting more because they know how to use 579 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: this technology better than old times like me. So before 580 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,280 Speaker 1: I get to my favorite questions, I have one last 581 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 1: question for you, and it has to do with back 582 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine, in the middle of the 583 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: financial crisis, you pretty much called the start of the 584 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: new bull market. Tell us about what you were seeing 585 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: at the end of the Great Financial Crisis and what 586 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: made you so confident that was a great time to 587 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: jump back into equities. Well, you know, my studies showed 588 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,240 Speaker 1: that all of these bear markets are very short duration, 589 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: maybe they're one or two years at most three years, um, 590 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, and unfortunately, uh many people measure a bear 591 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: markets from the peak of the previous bull to the 592 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,399 Speaker 1: peak of the next. Uh. And that's the wrong way 593 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: of measuring it. You should measure it from the peak 594 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: to the bottom. And as soon as you get to 595 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: the bottom and starts moving, you're in a new bull market. 596 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: And it's a wonderful time to invest because you know 597 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,959 Speaker 1: the percentages are in your favor. So that's what I saw. 598 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: I looked at the history and I forgured, hey, this 599 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: is not gonna last forever. People are very pessimistic. Uh, 600 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: it's a great time to be investing. And it turned 601 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: out to be right. And by the way, that happened 602 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 1: two years ago, three years ago. Now, um, you know, 603 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: when we had the COVID situation, it was an incredible 604 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 1: time to invest. And you know that was less than 605 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 1: a year that the market crashed and then started recovering, right. 606 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: That drop took place over six weeks, and I think 607 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: by August we were back to break even. It was 608 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,240 Speaker 1: pretty pretty impressive. We only have you for another five minutes, 609 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: so let me get to my five favorite questions I 610 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: asked all my guests. You can think of this as 611 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: a speed round. Let's quickly run through all five of these, 612 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 1: starting with tell us what you've been streaming during the lockdown. 613 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: What was keeping you entertained on either Netflix or Amazon 614 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: Prime or or whatever you were doing to entertain yourself. Well, 615 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:22,399 Speaker 1: I found that YouTube is incredible educational media and incredible programs. 616 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: And of course I also plick on Bloomberg and look 617 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: at News. If I want to know something about a country, 618 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: I put News and in the country and a lot 619 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: of sub pops up. So those are the two sources 620 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: that I found to be very very good. Tell us 621 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 1: about your early mentors who helped to shape your career. Well, 622 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 1: John Templeton was really that man. He was an incredible investor, 623 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: a wonderful person. Um, he really was an inspiration. Uh 624 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 1: and as you know, he lives on through his Templeton Prize. 625 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: You know, Templeton Prize is larger than the Nobel Prizes because, yeah, 626 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: he believed that a prize for religion, for you know, 627 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 1: the science of religion was the most important. So he 628 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 1: said he specified that his prize should be bigger than 629 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: the Nobel Prize, and of course it still is. They've 630 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,399 Speaker 1: got an incredible foundation. Tell us about some of your 631 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: favorite books and what you're reading right now. Well, I 632 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: just finished a book called Double Entry, which is a 633 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,719 Speaker 1: wonderful book. You know, it sounds boring, sounds like bookkeeping, 634 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,800 Speaker 1: but it's not. It's about the history of the Double 635 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: Entry accounting, but it goes into the whole revolution that 636 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 1: took place in the Middle Ages and now people in 637 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:46,719 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages adopted the Arabic script um and and 638 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: the calculations that came out of the ad world, and 639 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 1: it was It's an incredible book. So I'm reading that. 640 00:41:54,560 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: I love history. I'm also I started a book on Leopatra, 641 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 1: not necessarily because I'm fascinated by the woman Cleopatra, but 642 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,320 Speaker 1: by the era. It tells about what kind of environment 643 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:18,400 Speaker 1: she lived in, which is fascinating. So I think Cleopatra, Cleopatra. Yeah, 644 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: any others, any longtime favorites that you really want a reference. Well, 645 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: I also like books about archaeology, so I've been reading 646 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: a number of books on I think the Latin American archaeology, 647 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 1: because I think it's a lot in Latin America has 648 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 1: been overlooked. You know, there's so much emphasis on Egyptian archaeology, 649 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: but I think Latin American archaeology is incredibly fascinating, really intriguing. 650 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: What sort of advice would you give to a recent 651 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: college graduate who is interested in a career in either 652 00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 1: investing or emerging market and frontier market investing. Well, first 653 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: of all, travel, I mean, you're young, you can get out. 654 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: You can travel to all these countries, and that's a 655 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: tremendous learning experience to go these different countries and stay humble, 656 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: you know, listen to what other people are saying, Read 657 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: as much as you can, and keep on asking questions. 658 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: Don't think you have all the answers. Remember John Tevilan 659 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: once said, those people who think they have all the 660 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,439 Speaker 1: answers don't even know the questions. And I think young 661 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,080 Speaker 1: people should you know. Remember that it's very important. And 662 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 1: our final question, what do you know about the world 663 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 1: of investing today that you wish you knew thirty five 664 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,720 Speaker 1: years ago when you first started in the m investing. 665 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: It's not all in the numbers. In other words, you don't. 666 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,279 Speaker 1: When we thought it, we looked at the balance sheet, 667 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 1: the provent law statements, and we thought that was the 668 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,040 Speaker 1: most important thing. It's not the most important thing of 669 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 1: the people who is running the company. Uh, one of 670 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:03,279 Speaker 1: the associates of that person doing it's very important to 671 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:08,759 Speaker 1: get to know the people, but people create well quite fascinating. 672 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,800 Speaker 1: Thank you Mark for being so generous with your time. 673 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: We have been speaking with Dr Mark Mobius, now of 674 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:20,279 Speaker 1: Mobius Capital, previously with Franklin Templeton Investments. If you enjoy 675 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,040 Speaker 1: this conversation, and I do believe this is now the 676 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 1: four hundred one that showed up on iTunes, be sure 677 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:32,399 Speaker 1: and check out any of our previous three hundred such discussions. 678 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 1: You can find those at Spotify, iTunes wherever you get 679 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 1: your podcasts from. We love your comments, feedback and suggestions 680 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,960 Speaker 1: right to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. 681 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 1: Follow me on Twitter at rid Halts. You can sign 682 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: up for our daily reading list at dults dot com. 683 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:53,880 Speaker 1: I would be remiss if I did not thank the 684 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:58,240 Speaker 1: crack team that helps with these conversations together each week. 685 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 1: Mohammed Ramaui is audio engineer. Batika val Brunn is our 686 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: project manager, Paris Wald is my producer. Sean Russo is 687 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,080 Speaker 1: our head of research. I'm Barry Results. You've been listening 688 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 1: to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.