1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic production. I heart radio. 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: When I interviewed with Murdoch unto the twenty thousand profile 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: of him, and we went up spending probably ten straight 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: days in his office. I was a fly on the wall. 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: We had dinner maybe six or seven of those nights. 6 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: Yet he and I had a history. I had quit 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: rather than work for him, so he knew I abhorred 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: his journalism, and yet he was open in part. I 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: think because I said, look, I'm gonna try and understand you, 10 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: and I think that is seductive to people. I am 11 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: Bob Pipman. Welcome to Math and Magic Stories from the 12 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: Frontiers and Marketing, where we explore the entire gamut of marketing, 13 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: from analytics to creative. On this episode, we have someone 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: who has been exploring the same thing for most of 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: his career. He's perhaps the greatest media critic and observer 16 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: of my generation. Ken Aletta Ken grew up in Coney Island, 17 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: New York. Worked for Robert Kennedy twice. He was a 18 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: big part of the Village Voice in New York Magazine 19 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: in their heydays, and for the last twenty five years 20 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: he's written the Analysts of communications column for The New Yorker. 21 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: His books have explored everything from the three broadcast networks 22 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: before their fall, from Grace to Google, to the advertising industry. 23 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: With his latest Enemies, his interview was at the center 24 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: of recent documentary about the man behind McCarthy ism and 25 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: the Blacklist of the fifties and a legendary New York fixer, 26 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: Roy Cohne. He was a high school and college baseball player, 27 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: and he continued that into a well known writers baseball 28 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: team as an adult. He's a nice guy with a 29 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: big smile, who sometimes asked tough questions, and he's a friend. 30 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: Welcome Ken. Before we dig into the goods off, I 31 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: want to take a minute to start off with you 32 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: in sixty seconds. Ready to go Fireway. Do you prefer 33 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: cats or dogs? Dogs? Brooklyn or Manhattan Brooklyn Beer Wine Wine, 34 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: Mets or Yankees Mets. You prefer to play left field 35 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: or first base? I used to play left field, now 36 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 1: first base. As you get older. A cup or cone cone, 37 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: roller coasters or bumper cars, bumper cars, Ted Turner or 38 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: Barry Diller. I like them both. Cooking or tennis. Cookie. Okay, 39 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: it's about to get harder. Secret talent cooking. Favorite Coney 40 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: Allen Ride, Oh boy boy, the horses, and it's deeple chase, 41 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: which is no longer their favorite sport baseball Probably I 42 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: love this slowness and the art of good pitching. Favorite 43 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: meal to cook, D. S Huce. What would you for 44 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: your last meal? D? Souce. Smartest person you know, Tom Malone, 45 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: childhood hero Sandy koa first job working for Howard Simon 46 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: is writing speeches and carryen codes. Favorite book com punishment 47 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,959 Speaker 1: Both to live by Albert Camu Good Hope is better 48 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: than the bed holding Your proudest professional achievement, Getting people 49 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: who are hard to open up to open up. Scariest 50 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: interview you've done, Roy Cohn. He was easily the most 51 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: disgusting you may have ever met in my life. No 52 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: one even clothes. What did you want to be when 53 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: you were growing up? Last question? Baseball player? Okay, this 54 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: podcast is for entrepreneurs and marketers, so let me ask 55 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: you the big question. I'm sure they all want to know. 56 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: You've met and interviewed the greats of media at their peak, 57 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: Ted Turner, Larry Tish, Rupert Murdoch, Barry Diller, and some 58 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: not so great like Harvey Weinstein. Is there something the 59 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: successful ones having common Is there a secret sauce? I 60 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: don't know if there is a secret sauce, but there 61 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: are certain commonalities. And one of them is a conviction 62 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: that I'm going to do it my way. So it's 63 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: a kind of self confidence that people, uh, I know 64 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: the answer to this, and I'm gonna do it, and 65 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: damn the torpedoes. Some of my staff think I'm crazy 66 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna go do it. And that's what Bill 67 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: Gates did, That's what Barry Dilla did on a number 68 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: of occasions. That's what John Malone, That's what Murdoch did. 69 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: And you don't necessarily agree with these people. I mean, 70 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: I don't agree with Murdoch in terms of journalism, but 71 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: as a businessman he's not easily equal. Did you find 72 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: these folks were, in addition to knowing exactly where they 73 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: wanted to go, where the good listeners do. Actually, that's 74 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: a mixed bag. One of the things that make a 75 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 1: good reporter is to be a good listener, and you 76 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: got to draw people out. There are some Murdoch, for instance, 77 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: a good listener. Bill Gates when he ran Microsoft was 78 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: not a good listener. I think he is now in 79 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: philanthropy and if he were good listening, he wouldn't have 80 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: had the anti trust trilleyet and have lost it. We're 81 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: going to come to that. Barry Jill is a good listener. 82 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: John Malone is a good listener. You have to be 83 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: open to ideas and to exploring things to come up 84 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: with a big idea, a fresh, a new idea, which 85 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: many of these people did. They had to be listening 86 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: to something. As you began your exploration of your subjects, 87 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: do your conversations usually confirm initial impressions or other surprises. 88 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: Always surprises. One of the things I say to people 89 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: to try and seduce them to agree to a profile, 90 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: and a profile is a very in the New York 91 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: is a very elaborate process. It's probably four or five 92 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: months of reporting, and you say to them, I want 93 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: to be flying on the wall in your office. I 94 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: spent lots of time interviewing you. One of the things 95 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: you say at the beginning is that my task is 96 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: to understand you, so I'm starting with a clean slate. 97 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: When I interviewed Murdoch and did a thousand profile of 98 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: him in we wound up spending probably ten straight days 99 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: in his office. I was a fly on the wall. 100 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,679 Speaker 1: We had dinner maybe six or seven of those nights. 101 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: Yet he and I had a history. I had quit 102 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: rather than work for him, so he knew I ahoured 103 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: his journalism. And yet he was open in part, I 104 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: think because I said, look, I'm gonna try and understand you. 105 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: And I think that is seductive to people when you 106 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: do that, but it's genuine. That's my task to understand 107 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: a person. And so you got to free yourself of preconceptions, 108 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: preconceptions that are facts. Murdoch doing lousy journalism is a fact, 109 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: and ultimately that came back and punched him in the 110 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: nose when I wrote the profile. I want to dig 111 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: into a lot of those stories, but first I'd like 112 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: to get some context. So can we go back to 113 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: your roots. You were born during World War Two, grew 114 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: up on Coney Island, Brooklyn. Your dad owned a sports 115 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: equipment store. Can you paint the picture of those times? 116 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: My mother was Jewish, my father's Italian working class. I 117 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: went to work with my father's sporting it so when 118 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: I was nine, my brother who was five years old 119 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: and worked there as well. A million people came off 120 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: the Subway and Coney Allen every Saturday and Sunday in 121 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,679 Speaker 1: the summer. And they wanted something, they went the hats. 122 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: They too, clogs or whatever. My father had a little 123 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: sporting and store right across my train station, and he 124 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: would open the outdoors and we would sell hats. We 125 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: lived in a stoop house. You played Johnny on the 126 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: pony ring O Leevio and you played on the street. 127 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: Everyone was on the street. There were no big apartment 128 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: houses and projects then. So that's how I grew up. 129 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: I went to public schools. At Abraham Lincoln High School 130 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: where I went, I had a sixty four average and 131 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: I was a school up. I was thrown out of 132 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: high school for stealing a pack of passes to get 133 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: out of the building to hang on this sweech up, 134 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: and my parents somehow got me a meeting with a 135 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: blast who was a principal, Abraham like in high school, 136 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: a great man. And I came in with my T 137 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: shirt and he says, tell me Kenneth, and he liberally 138 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: used the word Kenneth, and I hated being called Kenneth. 139 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: Tell me, Kenneth, what do you like about Abraham Lin 140 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: in high school? And I said baseball and football. He said, 141 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: let me ask you a question, Kenneth. He said, if 142 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: you're not attending abraham Like in high school, how are 143 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: you going to play baseball and football? Favery mare, I'm 144 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: liking it. Never had gone to me. I was a 145 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: junior in high school and he had my attention, and 146 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: he said, here's the rules, and he became my lifelong 147 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: mentor what was his punishment? His punishment was had no 148 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: free periods, had to come to his office, and how 149 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: to read books like Dickens and other great books. Did 150 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: this reading as punishment change your relationship? I became more 151 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: serious person. I got into the State University of Oswego, 152 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: and when I'm going to graduate school, you go off 153 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: to college and from what I've read, I can't tell 154 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: if you were a serious activist or a hell raiser. 155 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: You outed the president of the school for a shady 156 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: real estate deal. He was eventually fired. It was Foster 157 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: Brown was his name. I was a reporter for the 158 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 1: paper and a column, but I thought the paper was 159 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:54,439 Speaker 1: too tame, so I started an off campus alternative newspaper 160 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: called which means truth in Russian. And this guy who 161 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 1: helped me by distributed in the mimograph paper. His name 162 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: was Dan Schoffman and then was a communist, a self 163 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: proclaimed communist. I wasn't at all, but we were both 164 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: trying to raise havoc. And one of the things I 165 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: found out is that Foster Brown had these real estate deals. 166 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: Someone must have given me a tip, because I would 167 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: not normally have gone to the land records. When I 168 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: did go to land records, I found for Brown on 169 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: this land which he was selling at the university and 170 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: making a lot of money. And so a graduation he 171 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 1: was there wouldn't shake my hand, but he was fired 172 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: the next year. What did college do to shape who 173 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: you became? I went there as a freshman, and we 174 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: didn't say in the dorm. We would say boarding houses 175 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: off campus. We wheel our luggage off the train and 176 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: we go to this house and these two elderly people say, Hi, 177 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: how are you? Mr? And Mrs Gardner. You know, Corny Hellen. 178 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: You didn't say a lot of strangers. I mean you 179 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: didn't you You always kept it a kind of a guard, 180 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: a distance. And I felt that all to college, that 181 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: sense of community that opened this and I always felt 182 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: that I learned much more about that than I learned 183 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: in subjects in classes that I learned how to listen. 184 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: I learned how to relate to people and talk to 185 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: them and appreciate them. It was just a great experience. 186 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: Was this your first time really outside of Brooke? We 187 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: couldn't take vacations because in some of my dad out 188 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: of work and we didn't have the money to go 189 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: on vacations, so I've never really been at to go. 190 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,599 Speaker 1: Now you've been quoted as saying you think it was 191 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: good for you to be a success at a school 192 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: that was not as academically rigorous as a school where 193 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: you would not have been the big success. Yeah. I 194 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 1: think that's right. I think I gained confidence by the 195 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: fact that it was not as rigorous as, say, my 196 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: graduate studies at Syracuse. I had no reason to be 197 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: confident when I went to US for you in my 198 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: intellectual capacity. I remember being in a constitutional law class 199 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: and he said, I want you to attend your Supreme 200 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: Court justice and take the opposite position from the one 201 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: you believe in. So in my case it was defense 202 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: States rights against civil rights. I found it so stimulating 203 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: to do that. I suddenly felt like, oh my god, 204 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,559 Speaker 1: I can I can hold my own and I can 205 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: stand up. You've got confidence at a place like us, 206 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: we're going I feel eternally grateful. You went off to 207 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: grad school at Syracuse. She joined the Air Force Reserves. 208 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: You did six months active duty during the Vietnam War. 209 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 1: You came out of all this working for a candidate 210 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: for the governor of New York. You worked for Bobby 211 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: Kennedy twice, but after his assassination you left politics and 212 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: moved to media. What happened to you? I always wanted 213 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: to be in journalism. It was in a PhD program. 214 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: I got a master's. We went a little beyond that 215 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: and said it's boring. Got a job of this guy, 216 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: Howard Samuels. This wonderful man was called the Upstate industrialist 217 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: Exoter Company co Court. I very successful, but he wants 218 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: to run for governor. And I was writer and wrote 219 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: for the column at the school paper. The dean of 220 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: the Exwell School recommended me to him as a speechwriter. 221 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: Dran for governor lost, but after Bobby Kennedy died in 222 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: I said, well, now this opportunity to go through journalism again. 223 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: So we started a weekly newspaper, Manhattan Tribune. It was 224 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: supposed to be a black white newspaper as a black 225 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: editor and a white editor of me, and it was 226 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: a wonderful experience. But the guy who put up the 227 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 1: money bill had had a business and when Nixon was elected, 228 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: he wanted us to write nice things about Nixon. So 229 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: me and my co editor and a number of people 230 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: just quit. You have one detour. You were the executive 231 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: director of the New York City Off Track Betting Corporation. 232 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: I had a big job there as executive director in 233 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: sixty nine. Howard Samuel's the guy worked and was very 234 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 1: loyal to and deeply fond of. He was the first 235 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: Democrat to endorse John Lindsay for re election as an 236 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: independent in nineteen sixty nine, and Lindsay came and said, 237 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: New York has started the first off track betting corporation 238 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: in the country. Howard, would you and your businessman would 239 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: you run it? So Howard started. I was his executive 240 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: director in the office next door to him for about 241 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: three years, and then I left to plot his campaign 242 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: for governor in seventy four. He was a heavy favor 243 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: to win. He was called Howie the Horse, and he 244 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: was very well known. And I was a campaign manager 245 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: and with my help, he went from a twenty point 246 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: lead to twenty point defeat and that was the end 247 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: of my politics. Any insights from your experience and all 248 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: of that politics running off track, betting that you've applied today, Well, 249 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: one of the truisms that punches me in the nose 250 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: all the time as a journalist, and one of the 251 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: reasons why I think when you do profiles of people, 252 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: you really gotta be in their office and you gotta 253 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: dig deep. It's what I call the human factor. Oftentimes 254 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: you'll find the most mathematically scientifically oriented person making seat 255 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: of the past decisions for very human reasons. For instance, 256 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,719 Speaker 1: I'm doing a profile of John Malone in he was 257 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: then the most powerful person in television. John Malone didn't 258 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: have a television in his office, and the phone's rarely right. 259 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: But at twelve o'clock, as I'm sitting there, I hear 260 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: a phone ring, and he opens up a drawer and 261 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: he texted a red phone, Yes, dear, I'm right there. 262 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: At five o'clock, the same thing happens, Yes, dere right there. 263 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: So this happens two days in a row. And I said, 264 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: all right, Malone, what is that all about? He said, 265 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: that's that's my wife. I meet her at the gym 266 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: and I meet her for lunch every day. I said, so, 267 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: let me ask you a question. You just sold your 268 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: company to the telephone company d C I thirty four 269 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: or so billion dollars. You made a lot of money, 270 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: so the other was good? I said, Was that the 271 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: only reason you sold your company? And its Actually it wasn't. 272 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: What was the other reason? The other reason I did it? 273 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: It was very human reason my wife, I said, what 274 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: do you mean? He said she would leave me if 275 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: I didn't have a more normal life. You, darling, promised 276 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: me when you married me, you would be there. But 277 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: you're never there. You're always working. I need you there more. 278 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: I mean, take Bill Gates. When I covered Microsoft antitrust trial. 279 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: Bill Gates could have avoided that entire trial, could have 280 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: avoided the charges from the just Departments of Monopoly had 281 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: he just acknowledged, yes, we have a large footprint. And 282 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna answer David Boys's questions like a brig. 283 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: I'm not going to be an arrogant guy. I'm gonna 284 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: be humble. When I interviewed the judge in that trial, 285 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: he said he didn't believe Bill Gates because he watched 286 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: the deposition. So if Bill Gates had not been so proud, 287 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: so arrogant at that point in time, he could have 288 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: avoided a lot of headache. Again, Human Factor, Just hold 289 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: on a second, because we've got so much more to 290 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: talk about. We'll be back after a quick break. M 291 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Math and Magic. We're here with Caneletta. 292 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: You went on to start them. At the Village Voice, 293 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: New York magazine. You wrote and won one of your 294 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: first awards for an article called fifty Bad Decisions that 295 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: brought about the New York fiscal crisis. Did that make 296 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: you an insider suddenly to this kind of community or 297 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: were you a threat to them? I was a threat 298 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: to them. The Voice was a threat to the establishment, 299 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: and I was writing. Actually, I would argue a piece 300 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: that had more impact was a piece I wrote for 301 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: New York Magazine, a cover story should these people go 302 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: to jail? And it looked at the decisions that were 303 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: made over the years that put the city in this 304 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: fiscal hole, by bankers, by union leaders, by mayors, by governors, 305 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: and looked at the law and said they commit fraud? 306 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: Did they lie to the public? And say they had 307 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: money they didn't really have. And I'll know forget that 308 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: piece because I wrote it in almost scholarly way, did 309 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: a lot of reporting and said one hand of the 310 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: hand Milton Glazer, who was one of the most geniuses 311 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: I've ever met. Clay Felk was the editor, and Milton 312 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: was there and Walter Bernard who was his deputy, And 313 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: I said, you know, the story is these people commit 314 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 1: a crime, and you know it's complicated. And Milton said, 315 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: how about this, took out a pad and he drew 316 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: prison bars and he had holding the prison bars may 317 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 1: have been Mayor Lindsay, Governor Rockefeller, Walter risk and the 318 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: head of City Bank. And he said, how about this 319 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: the headline should these people go to jail? And I said, 320 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: oh my god. It was just brilliant. You know that 321 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: gets people to read a piece. New York Magazine was 322 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: the hot of the moment media property. It was sort 323 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: of the Facebook of its day. It's founder, Clay Felker, 324 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: who you mentioned, could not have been more important. And 325 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: then Rupert Murdoch, still at the beginning of his empire, 326 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: takes it over. You walked out with a bunch of people, 327 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: what happened was Rufromer as a bold businessman who takes risks, 328 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: but he also cuts corners. He and Clay Felker we're friends. 329 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: Clay Felker introduced him to Dorothy Schiff in nineteen seventy five. 330 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: He both an air Post and promised to keep it 331 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: a liberal newspaper, and of course immediately made it a 332 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: conservative newspaper. Then in nineteen seventy six, Clay Felker confided 333 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: in his friend Roue Murdoch. He said, I'm having terrible 334 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 1: problems with my Border Directors. It's just awful. I gotta 335 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: figure out something. Murdoch then went behind Felker's back, went 336 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: to the Border Directors and made a deal to buy 337 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: the company out from his friend Clay Felker. So we 338 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 1: heard that, and when that became public, all of us, 339 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: almost the entire staff went on strike. We said, we're 340 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: not going to work for Murdoch. I was in my 341 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: late twenties. I knew Howard Squadron, who was Murdoch's attorney, 342 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: because he had helped Howard Samuel's unners in politics. We 343 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: go to Howard's office and I say, Howard, I just 344 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: want to tell you lectually back away and not do 345 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: this takeover because all of us are going to leave. 346 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: We're not going to work for Murdoch, and that'll be 347 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: disaster for New York Magazine. And Howard looked at me 348 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 1: and he said, Ken, I don't think you understand. I 349 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: said what he said. You have furniture, you can be replaced. 350 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: And that's what happened. We all quit and he replaced 351 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: us all with furnitures. There was a lesson that money talks. 352 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: If you had the perspective of you today, would you 353 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: have done it? Absolutely? I was glad I did it. 354 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: I must say in fairness, we worried that Murdoch would 355 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 1: take New York Magazine downmarket the way he took the 356 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 1: New York Post, and he didn't do that. And by 357 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: the way, I was the only one who also worked 358 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: at the Village Voice then, so I was quitting both. 359 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: He didn't do that The Voice. In fact, one of 360 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: Murdock's very frustrations. He could not control the Village Voice 361 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: and he didn't try to control New York Magazine because 362 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: it was successful the way it was. I messed with that, 363 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: but I'm balanced. I'm happy I took the edition, and 364 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: I think most of us would say the same thing 365 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: worked out well for you. Yeah, I worked out well, 366 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: But it was actually interesting what happened. I remember, figure 367 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: out what am I going to do now? And I 368 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 1: go out to lunch with Richard Reeves, who was my buddy. 369 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,719 Speaker 1: We come back to my apartment and there's a message 370 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: on the machine that just pressed the button and it said, hello, 371 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: Mr all Thatta, this is William Sean s h A W. 372 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: And he spelled his name, and he was the other 373 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: of the New Yorker. Of course, call me, and that's 374 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: the soda the New Yorker. I wound up doing longer 375 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: pieces for The New Yorker. I got a column in 376 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: the New York Daily News on Sundays and did a 377 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: weekly television show on w n E T. So my 378 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: life turned out. Okay, let's get into some men's sights. 379 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 1: You are, through your work, an expert on disruption and 380 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: transformation or lack of it in the media and tech world. 381 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: You covered the Microsoft trial. We talked about it twenty 382 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 1: years ago. What came out of that trial that's relevant 383 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: today with all the talk that's going on about tech 384 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: and the giants. Microsoft lost the trial both in Judge 385 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: Jackson's Federal District Court, and in the Court of Appeals 386 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: they would deem to be a monopoly. But the appeals 387 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: court overrule Judge Jackson's ruling that they should be broken 388 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: up in any case, Microsoft because it was left in 389 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: such bad order by that decision and by its own 390 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: behavior and that trial, they really suffered up serious blow 391 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 1: less ability to recruit good people who don't want to 392 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: work for an ogre. They became a much more tentative company. 393 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: And the lesson for that, as you spend forward, you 394 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: see today a much greater bipartisan support for regulating the 395 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: facebooks and the Google's and the Amazons, and they are 396 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: just as arrogant and as out of touch with Washington. 397 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: Those politicians have real power now. When you watch Mark 398 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,360 Speaker 1: Zuckerberry be interviewed by the Senate and you you see 399 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: these unbelievably dumb questions that senators asked, you're almost sympathetic 400 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: to Mark Zuckerberg because of that. On the other hand, 401 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: they are in danger today of being regulated because people 402 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: are worried about not just their influence and power over journalism, 403 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 1: over privacy, just too much power. The lesson for them 404 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: is heed what happened to Microsoft. Even though Microsoft was 405 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: not broken up, they suffered. Do you think the government 406 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: can understand the issues well enough to effectively regulate detech 407 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: giants or do they not quite know what they're looking at? 408 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: I think they don't quite know what they're looking at. 409 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: I mean when you see Senator or in the hatch 410 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: asked Mark Zuckerberg, So you're free, how do you make 411 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: your money? I mean, god, you just say, oh my god, 412 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: I can't believe this guy. I remember when the government 413 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: recommended to break up Microsoft and the judge, who was 414 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: a wonderful man but digitally illiterate. I thought it was 415 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: so foolish. It's so unbelievably foolish. But if you were 416 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: conversing with the way the world was moving open source, 417 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: the internet, packet software was Microsoft was dead at some point, 418 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: don't artificially manufacturers. What do you think the remedy should 419 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: have been? Well, in part, the remedy was scold them, 420 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: humiliate them, shame them. That's something I believe in. It's 421 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: a fundamental point that you have to shame people. Journalism 422 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: has a big role in that too. Expose wrongdoing, expose arrogance, 423 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: exposed stupidity or corruption. You take Mark Zuckerberg today or 424 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: Cheryl Sandberg today. I've spent time with both of them 425 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: over the years and written profile of her and quite admirer. 426 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,360 Speaker 1: But they've been shamed. That affects their behavior and will 427 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: affect their behavior, perhaps more than a misguided government regulation would. 428 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: By the way, same is true for journalism. One of 429 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: the most fun pieces I've I did for The New 430 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: Yorker was I think a ninety four It was called 431 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: Fee f Ee Speech. I interviewed about fifty journalists about 432 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: the fees they took to give speeches from organizations that 433 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: they are about. And I'll never forget that. People I 434 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: admired telling me, I don't have to answer that question. 435 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: It's private. So what do you get this private? Would 436 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: you let a politician get away with that answer? Were 437 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 1: you shunned for that? Yeah? Well over it made a 438 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: lot of people really angry. But that was fun, I mean, 439 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,199 Speaker 1: but it also has an effect. I mean, I know 440 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: organizations that literally institute a policy saying you have to 441 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: come to us for approval before you give a paid speech, 442 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 1: or you can't give spaced speeches to organizations you write 443 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: about or cover and I think that's great. Let's fast 444 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: forward twenty years. You wrote about the disruption of the 445 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: ad business with frenemies and Google before that, how were 446 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: those two interconnected? Google started out when they formed, they 447 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: didn't have any idea how to make money. By the way, 448 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: Facebook was the same some years later. But what happened 449 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: us in two thousand four? Google is trying to figure 450 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: out how do we make money and they came up 451 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: with both ad Sense and ad Words. Today, Google's revenues 452 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 1: come from advertising, which is why it's free of Facebook's 453 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: comes from advertising. They originally were very reluctant to do advertising. 454 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: They felt were cheapened the product, and they don't have 455 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: that compunction today. When we look at the two though, 456 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: with the advertising industry and Google, is the advertising business 457 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: now controlled by Google and Facebook? It's certainly dominated by them. 458 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: I mean more than fifty of digital ads go to 459 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: those two companies, and sev of the growth in digital 460 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: advertising goes to those two companies. The one to watch 461 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 1: out for is Amazon. Amazon is growing like a rocket 462 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: faster and the reason for that is that they have 463 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: the most vital information and advertising. Once you know this 464 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: better than I do, purchase decision So do you think 465 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: that Google and Facebook and Amazon pushing the advertising business 466 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: to data is making the advertising business ultimately stronger. Well, 467 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 1: it does in some ways, but it also becomes a 468 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: menace of the advertising business because advertising business wants and 469 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: more data, and yet more data means less privacy. The 470 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: privacy issue has really surfaced and risen as a major concern. 471 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: And you watch a company like Apple make the opposite 472 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: arguments saying, don't go to Google and Facebook and Amazon, 473 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,239 Speaker 1: we won't violate your privacy, and they do, and so 474 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: that becomes a defining difference between some of the digital 475 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: companies as well. You look at new leaders in the 476 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: advertising business. I look at Christian Jewels, Got Hagadorn, people 477 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: who are really digitally savvy and see the world through 478 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: the lens of data. Is that driven by this disruption 479 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: that's come from these original tech players. A basic division 480 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 1: is between math men and mad men. The math men 481 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: are digitally savvy people who want data, more and more data, 482 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: and they say, we can create algorithms to target ads 483 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: that people, knowing enough about those people that they'll be 484 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: interested in our product. And the creativity matters less, the instinct, 485 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: the judgment matters less. It's a math problem, and that's 486 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: a division in the ad world that will persist. I 487 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: think in Three Blind Mice a while back, you called 488 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: the demise of the broadcast TV networks. Looking back, was 489 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: there anything you missed or did it play out as 490 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: you expected? It didn't play out totally as I expected. 491 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: What I said in Three Blind Minds is that the 492 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: broadcast television networks were being disrupted by a new technology, cable. 493 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: We were new tech in the cable days, and you 494 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: were and you had two sources of revenue advertising, but 495 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 1: you also had subscriptions. Broadcast was all advertising. So I said, 496 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: broadcast scenes in trouble unless they can get another source 497 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 1: of revenue. What happened was actually Congress played at the 498 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: largest role in this. They passed the Cable Act in 499 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: nine four. Cable Act allowed retransmission consent, so the cable 500 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,360 Speaker 1: companies were required to pay the broadcast networks for use 501 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: of their programs. The second thing was the Fincin rules 502 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: would change, which allowed the networks now to own the 503 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: programs and syndicate them and therefore creating another source of 504 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: revenue for them, particularly when the digital world came on. 505 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: The Netflix is and the youtubes, they allowed them to 506 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: sell programmings to them. CBS went from almost a reliant 507 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: on revenues from advertising, reliant on advertising. They were selling 508 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: programs and Netflix in two stations. They were getting retransmission 509 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: consent a couple of billion dollars from cable, and they 510 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,959 Speaker 1: were selling overseas the programs that they own now. And 511 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: that's true of all the networks. But then the question becomes, 512 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: by selling their programs to Netflix, was CBS and Fox 513 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: and NBC building up a competitor? And I think yes, 514 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: thinking about what they could have done differently, the cable 515 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: companies John Malone et cetera start building out the major cities. 516 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: They need something more than distant TV signals. They need 517 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: real cable networks. They first go to ABC, NBC, CBS 518 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: and say, hey, I've had this idea. Why don't you 519 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: build us these networks? The broadcast networks based to say, 520 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: go away, what are you crazy? Why would we cannibalize ourselves. 521 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: This contrast, this is Steve Jobs saved Apple transformed. It 522 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: came out this great new thing called the iPod, and 523 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: he had iTunes and then it was gonna be apparent. 524 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: Music was going to be on the phone. So what 525 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: does he do. He goes into the phone business, basically 526 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: cannibalizes himself. But I don't think there's a person alive 527 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: looking at that they would say that turned out to 528 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: be the wrong move. What was different about those two 529 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: and how they looked at it. I think Steve Jobs 530 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: was not wedded to the past in any way. And 531 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: by the way, he was not an employee who worried 532 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: about his stock price, which most of the network people. 533 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: They were not owners, they were employees, they were managers, 534 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: and he thought out of the box. An example of 535 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: a traditional media person who thought outside the box is 536 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: Bob Iger. The deals he made with Steve Jobs. I mean, 537 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: Michael Eisner would not make those deals. Bob Byger becomes 538 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: CEO and suddenly he's reaching out. His people are saying, 539 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: what are you reaching out to him? He's the enemy. 540 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: He's competing without animation business. He's no, no, I want 541 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: to own that animation business. I wanted to transform Disney's 542 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: animation business. I watched the Roy Cohne documentary, Your interview 543 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: was the thread. Roy Cohne, for people who don't remember, 544 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: is the sidekick of Joe McCarthy. He was the fixer 545 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: in New York. He sort of knew everybody and sort 546 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: of got stuff done, and probably not the most scrupulous ways. 547 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: And you said you felt a little creepy doing that interview. 548 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: What did you learn about our city and about politics 549 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: and about the way things are done through that interview? 550 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: He had an enormous political power. The first interview we 551 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: did was at lunch at the twenty one Club, where 552 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: he had at Joyce table and I'm saying that he 553 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: didn't order, and I ordered a hamburger and French fries, 554 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: and he's sitting next to me, side by side with 555 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: his fingers. He's taking French fries off my plate and 556 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: eating them, and I'm kind of stunned by it. And 557 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: he's looking around the room and he sees his former 558 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: clients at Best Myers and other people, people who hired 559 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: him to kill their spouse or their business Pardner, and 560 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: you realize the source of his power was that people 561 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: hired him to kill four of them legally. And so 562 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: I write this piece and I thought he would hate it. 563 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: Was called a legal executioner on the cover, and it 564 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: was tough on him. And he calls me up and 565 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: I said, oh God, I'm gonna yield at by this creep. 566 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: And he says, Ken, I loved your piece, and how 567 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: do we get five under copy? And I realized pleased him. 568 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: It was a calling card. He said, would you sign one? 569 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: And I signed it and I said, de roy Cone 570 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: who I wished I had punched, and then he started 571 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: attacking me after that. From your vantage point and with 572 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: the keen pattern recognition you have. For a CEO listening 573 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: to this, or an entrepreneur, what advice would you give 574 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: them about success and failure be a good listener. Both 575 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: Barry Diller and Bob Iger when they were trying to 576 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: understand the digital world, Barry Diller said, I don't do emails. 577 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: I do them just twice a day so I can 578 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: concentrate it. But Bob Iger said to me he spent 579 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: an hour a day just surfing the web, just trying 580 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: to understand what was going on the sides. So I 581 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: think listening, being open, asking questions is critical. I think 582 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: humility is critical. Iger in his book talks about how 583 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: you gotta make people feel good. And I'll never forget 584 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: when I was doing my three Blind Mice book on 585 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: tele as networks, one of the great managers was Dan 586 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: Burke of Cap City that would spend time with him. 587 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: Dan would go around and he would compliment people, and 588 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: I said to him at one point, why do you 589 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: compliment people at the time and he looked at me. 590 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: He said, Ken, have you ever met anyone who tires 591 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: of a compliment? And that was one of his reasons 592 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: for success. I mean, he made people feel good. I 593 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: want to get one more personal insight. Your wife, Binkie 594 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: is a hugely successful literary agent. How is living in 595 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: a household with your careers intertwined? Upsides and downsides? Well, 596 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: the upside is you have so much to talk about. 597 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: You're unkindred Fields. You've got to read Jenny Egan, who 598 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: she represents. And I read Jenny Egan. I said wow, 599 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: and so that's great. The downside is that Binkie is 600 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: the first person who edits my work and she kills me. 601 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: So as we wrap up, we always end where we began. 602 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: Math and magic. Let's give a shout out to those 603 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: you think deserve it. Who's the best analytical, business, marketing 604 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 1: or media person the math side of it? Ran Goli, 605 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: best magician, the showman or show woman. Michael Heston's pretty good. 606 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: Can your insights have shaped the generation. Your contributions to pen, 607 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: the Public Library, New York Shakespeare Festival, one Very which 608 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: is the Public Theater, and more are greatly appreciated to 609 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us today. Thank you, Jorda. Here are 610 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: a few things I picked up in my conversation with Ken. One, 611 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: to really understand someone, you have to start with a 612 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,839 Speaker 1: clean slate. By freeing himself a preconceptions, Kim was able 613 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: to earn the trust of people he had had a 614 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: history with, like Rupert Murdoch, and ultimately get them to 615 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: agree to a profile. To be a good listener, whether 616 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,399 Speaker 1: you're a CEO or a journalist, asking questions is key 617 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: to understanding the world around you. Three, stand up for 618 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 1: what you believe in. When Ken walked out of his 619 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: job at New York Magazine on principle, he quickly got 620 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: a call from The New Yorker that would change his 621 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 1: career trajectory. Thanks for listening. I'm Bob Pittman. That's it 622 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Math 623 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,479 Speaker 1: and Magic, a production of I Heart Radio. This show 624 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sue Schillinger 625 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no 626 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: small feat. Nikki Etre for pulling research bill plaques, and 627 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,320 Speaker 1: Michael Asar for their recording help, our editor Ryan Murdoch, 628 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: and of course Gayle Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel Mango and 629 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: everyone who helped bring this show to your ears. Until 630 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: next time,