WEBVTT - 2 Cases.  1 Outstanding Book.  Tim Sandefur Talks to A&G

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<v Speaker 1>From the Abraham Lincoln Radio Studio at the George Washington

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<v Speaker 1>Broadcast Center, Jack Armstrong and Show Getty Armstrong and Jetty

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<v Speaker 1>Show glut Man, it's one of the sins. You realize,

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<v Speaker 1>it's sin, gluttony, one of the seven deadly sins. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not just a sin, not a heir. I wish

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<v Speaker 1>you wouldn't do that. It's to death. So it's not

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<v Speaker 1>only just bad for you, it's a sin. God does

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<v Speaker 1>not like God. Glutten me was displeased with me? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>me too. I'm speaking to myself. Let's let's just tone

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<v Speaker 1>down the gluttony. I ate the last big plateful of

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<v Speaker 1>mashed potatoes, gravy, turkey and stuffing last night, and let's

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<v Speaker 1>just tone her down a little bit. Maybe something a

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<v Speaker 1>little light tonight. Yeah, let's let's walk away from the

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<v Speaker 1>Let's walk away from the table and not wabble away

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<v Speaker 1>from the table for the first time in four days.

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<v Speaker 1>How much apple Chris is enough? I'm asking myself, not you.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh it's so good though, warmed up a little ice cream. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>there were references to how my gallbladder gave up on

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<v Speaker 1>me last year, and I'm running out of organs. It

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<v Speaker 1>quit and walked out the Great Resigning or whatever they

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<v Speaker 1>call that. Uh. So, here's here's a young man who's

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<v Speaker 1>slim and find a physical condition not to mention a

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<v Speaker 1>sharp mind. And that's Tim Sandford, Tim the lawyer. Tim

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<v Speaker 1>Sandford is the vice president for Litigation for the Goldwater Institute,

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<v Speaker 1>author of many fine tomes, including some of my favorites,

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<v Speaker 1>The Right to Earn a Living and the Permission Society.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh and and also a brand new book, which we'll

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<v Speaker 1>talk to him about in a couple of minutes. But Tim,

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<v Speaker 1>how are you welcome? I don't know, man, I think

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<v Speaker 1>I may have indulged in a little of that gluttony

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<v Speaker 1>myself over Thanksgiving. Yes, I know you're not frightened by

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<v Speaker 1>your maker, but it's not always the best health for

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<v Speaker 1>all we went to. We we spent Thanksgiving in Hawaii.

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<v Speaker 1>So I am I am now officially with the Hawaiian's

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<v Speaker 1>called a pa or pig gorged myself at the lou House.

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<v Speaker 1>So hey, by the way, I saw that post on

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<v Speaker 1>your Twitter, and you and your and that your wedding

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<v Speaker 1>anniversary and the picture of you and Christine on the

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<v Speaker 1>couch is a Simpsons drawing where'd you come up with that?

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<v Speaker 1>That was awesome? I don't know. My wife contacted the

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<v Speaker 1>artist and got that done Simpson's style portrait of our

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<v Speaker 1>family sitting on the Simpsons couch. It's absolutely perfect. Well

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<v Speaker 1>on my law. That is so cool. Wow, that is

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<v Speaker 1>a cool gift. Yeah. Indeed, so, Tim, we have a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of stuff to talk to you about. A couple

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<v Speaker 1>of big cases, one that you've been working on personally,

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<v Speaker 1>and then your new book is out and we want

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<v Speaker 1>to talk to you about that. But let's let's first

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<v Speaker 1>bring the gabble down and talk about the cases. Now.

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<v Speaker 1>For instance, you're working on an Indian Child Welfare Act case.

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<v Speaker 1>We've talked to you about it, but for folks not

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<v Speaker 1>familiar with it, give them the thumbnail sketch if you would.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a federal that that that law is a federal

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<v Speaker 1>law that says how states have to treat child welfare

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<v Speaker 1>cases like abuse and neglect and adoption and foster care

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<v Speaker 1>if a child is biologically eligible for membership in an

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<v Speaker 1>Indian tribe. So it draws this biological distinction between kids

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<v Speaker 1>and says that states have to treat these Indian children differently.

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<v Speaker 1>And what's amazing about it is. It says they have

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<v Speaker 1>to treat these Indian children worse because this law actually

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<v Speaker 1>overrides the best interest of the child rule, which is

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<v Speaker 1>the rule that governs how these kinds of cases are

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<v Speaker 1>dealt with, and it forces state officials to send Indian

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<v Speaker 1>children back to abused homes in situations that would not

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<v Speaker 1>happen if the kids were white or Black, or Asian

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<v Speaker 1>or Hispanic or whatever. And as a result, this law

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<v Speaker 1>has led to the preventable murder of Indian children across

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<v Speaker 1>the country in case after case after case. So we've

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<v Speaker 1>been challenging the constitutionality of this law, and that case

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<v Speaker 1>went to the U. S. Supreme Court and was argued

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of weeks ago. I went out to d

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<v Speaker 1>C to to attend these oral arguments. The very exciting

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<v Speaker 1>thing to witness, well, it was what's the argument for

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<v Speaker 1>the status quo? Because it sounds horrifically racist, it really is.

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<v Speaker 1>But the reasoning behind it at the time was actually

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<v Speaker 1>they thought they were doing a good thing because in

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<v Speaker 1>the decades that preceded its passage, which was the states

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<v Speaker 1>and federal officials, they had been engaged in this pro

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<v Speaker 1>program of purposely taking Indian children away from their families

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<v Speaker 1>in order to forcibly assimilate them with white society. And

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<v Speaker 1>so that that was like that, you know, taking kids

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<v Speaker 1>away from their families for no good reason. And so

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<v Speaker 1>they said, well, how can we stop this from happening?

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<v Speaker 1>So they passed as law intending to put an into that,

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<v Speaker 1>but as almost seems to almost always happen, the government

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<v Speaker 1>went too far the other direction and ended up passing

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<v Speaker 1>a law that actually prohibits states from protecting these children nowadays.

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<v Speaker 1>In many cases, Wow, that's just the results are unthinkable,

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<v Speaker 1>and just the logic strikes or the lack of logic

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<v Speaker 1>is so troubling. Um. But so that it's in argued,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, it's difficult to say how it went.

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<v Speaker 1>But how did it go? Oh, it went pretty well,

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<v Speaker 1>it was. It was four hours of oral argument, which

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<v Speaker 1>is incredibly low. I mean, that's like nineteenth century style,

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<v Speaker 1>back when they used to take all day, and the

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<v Speaker 1>justices were all very attentive to the very complicated constitutional

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<v Speaker 1>questions here, because it's not just that it's race based,

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<v Speaker 1>it's also what are the limits between federal and state authority?

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<v Speaker 1>And what are the what do the regulations say there's

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of parts of the law that actually aren't defined,

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<v Speaker 1>so nobody really knows what some of these terms mean

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<v Speaker 1>and things. So it went back and forth. There were

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<v Speaker 1>some really good arguments on both sides. I'm optimistic. I

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<v Speaker 1>think that the argument went pretty well for US. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>predicting it will be a five four. I think it'll

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<v Speaker 1>be close, but I think it. I'm optimistic that this

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<v Speaker 1>case is going to to declare this law unconstitutional and

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<v Speaker 1>forced Congress to say, look, with regard to children's race,

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<v Speaker 1>we need to prioritize their best interests. You can't say,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, like this law basically prohibits white adults from

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<v Speaker 1>adopting Indian children. Children who are in need, don't They're

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<v Speaker 1>not interested in color lines. They need protection and help.

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<v Speaker 1>And this law is a law that says that even

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<v Speaker 1>when there are adults willing to help children in need,

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<v Speaker 1>they're not allowed to if they're the wrong race. And

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<v Speaker 1>that's really outrageous. How much of the oral arguments was

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<v Speaker 1>that new Chatty Supreme Court justice just talks too much? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>there there was a little bit of that. It wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>too much, but you know, after four hours, I think

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<v Speaker 1>we were also exhausted that when actually it was funny

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<v Speaker 1>that Chief Justice said, thank you, the case is submitted,

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<v Speaker 1>which means everybody's done well. One of the lawyers had

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<v Speaker 1>not had his chance to to finish up his argument,

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<v Speaker 1>so he stood there with this funny look on the

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<v Speaker 1>stays until the Chief Justice said, oh, I'm sorry, go ahead,

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<v Speaker 1>and he went up to the podium and he said,

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<v Speaker 1>I take the hint, your honor, and you could be yeah, wow, wow, Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about another case that I was asking about

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<v Speaker 1>a few weeks ago. Uh, that had to do with

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<v Speaker 1>in forcing laws against public camping, blocking sidewalks, etcetera. In Phoenix.

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<v Speaker 1>As you know, every need not be reset. But everybody

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<v Speaker 1>in every blue city in the country and some of

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<v Speaker 1>the Purple cities is dealing with this horrific influx of

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<v Speaker 1>of junkie camps everywhere. What's that case about. Yeah, Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 1>Phoenix is now the location of one of the largest

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<v Speaker 1>homeless encampments in the country, over a thousand people who

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<v Speaker 1>are living in what we call the zone on several

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<v Speaker 1>blocks of downtown Phoenix intens and on the streets because

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<v Speaker 1>of a city policy to refuse to enforce laws against

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<v Speaker 1>vagrancy and camping and pollution and these sorts of things,

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<v Speaker 1>and as a result, it's destroying the businesses in the area.

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<v Speaker 1>These people who are trying to run a business in

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<v Speaker 1>these several blocks that are now being occupied by the

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<v Speaker 1>homeless are they're they're finding that they can't have they

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<v Speaker 1>can't hire people to work in these businesses, they can't

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<v Speaker 1>protect the safety of their employees. They can't even protect

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<v Speaker 1>their own businesses from from from arson. There these people

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<v Speaker 1>of setting fires to stay warm now that it's getting colder.

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<v Speaker 1>And one person testified at a recent hearing that he

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<v Speaker 1>had to have all the wheel the windows in the

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<v Speaker 1>building sealed because of all the urine soaking into the

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<v Speaker 1>to the place where he works because of these homeless encampments.

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<v Speaker 1>So several business owners have filed suit in the state

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<v Speaker 1>courts here challenging that the city's maintenance of a public nuisance.

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<v Speaker 1>A nuisance is, you know, when you use your property

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<v Speaker 1>in a way that damages somebody else's property. And the

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<v Speaker 1>government is not allowed to run a nuisance anymore than

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<v Speaker 1>anybody else's. And by maintaining this homeless encampment now for

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<v Speaker 1>for a couple of years now and and basically attracting

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<v Speaker 1>this this element to the community to destroy people's property.

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<v Speaker 1>The city is engaged in a nuisance. Now, unfortunately, we

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<v Speaker 1>had a hearing several weeks ago and then the case

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<v Speaker 1>got reassigned to a new judge. So now we have

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<v Speaker 1>to have another hearing next week. Uh seeking a court

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<v Speaker 1>order commanding the city to start enforcing its own laws. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>obviously this could have far reaching consequences if it goes

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<v Speaker 1>the correct way. To my mind, I don't know where

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<v Speaker 1>you draw the line at nuisance, but maybe that would

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<v Speaker 1>finally be the way you break up these camps. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>that's that's right. And in fact, there is one precedent

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<v Speaker 1>already in place. Remember when when uh, I think it

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<v Speaker 1>was Portlands, they were operated what they called chairs or

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<v Speaker 1>chop or whatever the the yeah, yeah, to set up

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<v Speaker 1>this autonomous community zone in the middle of the city

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<v Speaker 1>and refused to enforce the law there. As a result,

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of people suffered their their property was being

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<v Speaker 1>destroyed and taken away from so they sued the city

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<v Speaker 1>and the federal court allowed that case to go forward,

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<v Speaker 1>saying that that was a taking of their property without

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<v Speaker 1>due process of law. So there is precedents on the

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<v Speaker 1>book that says that when the government just completely washes

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<v Speaker 1>its hands of its obligation to enforce the law and

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<v Speaker 1>protect people's property rights, then it can be liable for

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<v Speaker 1>depriving people of their constitutional rights. Yeah, that's interesting, cause

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<v Speaker 1>I know I know business owners who feel like they

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<v Speaker 1>can't They don't get near the as many customers as

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<v Speaker 1>they would normally get because it's so hard to get

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<v Speaker 1>to the front door. And what's so frustrating for us

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<v Speaker 1>the largely law abiding is that they're violating sewage laws,

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<v Speaker 1>they're violent and camping laws, they're violating drug use laws,

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<v Speaker 1>and just there's a lack of political will, or I

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<v Speaker 1>should putting in the affirmative, there's a political will to

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<v Speaker 1>ignore the law. Unlicensed dogs off leash. I mean, it's endless.

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<v Speaker 1>Refusing to enforce the laws against pollution. It's illegal in

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<v Speaker 1>Arizona to pollute the public waterways. Well, this zone is

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<v Speaker 1>within walking discnse of the Salt River. People are urinating

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<v Speaker 1>and defecating on the streets and the sidewalks, and that

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<v Speaker 1>when it rains that runs off into the river. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>no private party would be allowed to do that in

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<v Speaker 1>the city. Isn't allowed to do that either. How it's

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<v Speaker 1>kind of surprised when you said it's been going on

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<v Speaker 1>for years, because when you first set a thousand people,

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<v Speaker 1>I thought, well, can't you just wait till summer and

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<v Speaker 1>will kind of take care of itself. But it's been

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<v Speaker 1>going on for years. How do you How do you

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<v Speaker 1>stay in one of those places in the summertime? Good?

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<v Speaker 1>I can't imagine. And of course in the winter, they're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna start setting even or fires than they currently are,

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<v Speaker 1>which sets fires to the tents out of the time

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<v Speaker 1>and starts to burn down the buildings. And we're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about these buildings. Are these these tents are basically situated

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<v Speaker 1>between the main campus of Arizona State University and the

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<v Speaker 1>state Capitol building in Phoenix. So you're talking about places

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<v Speaker 1>we would really rather not have violent crime and arson

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<v Speaker 1>going on. Tim Sandford's vice president for litigation in the

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<v Speaker 1>Goldwater Institute. If you just missed our conversation with him

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<v Speaker 1>about a couple of really interesting cases grabbed via podcast later,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm strong and getting on demand. But now let's move

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<v Speaker 1>on to his brand new book, Freedom's Furies. How Isabel Patterson,

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<v Speaker 1>Rose Wilder Lane and Mine Rand found liberty in an

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<v Speaker 1>Age of Darkness. Uh, it's ladies night, tim Sanderford's word processor.

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<v Speaker 1>What inspire Well, I it's just I have always thought

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<v Speaker 1>it was a really interesting story that these three women

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<v Speaker 1>in the year nineteen forty three, each of them published

0:11:55.760 --> 0:12:00.360
<v Speaker 1>books that basically started the modern libertarian movement. And turns

0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:02.640
<v Speaker 1>out that they knew each other and we're friends, and

0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:06.120
<v Speaker 1>they were all very interesting people. Rose Wilder Lane, for example,

0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:09.360
<v Speaker 1>basically ghost wrote the Little House on the Prairie novels

0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.480
<v Speaker 1>with her mother, Laura Ingalls Wilder, and of course rand

0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.600
<v Speaker 1>started a philosopical philosophical movement that was very influential. She

0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:18.080
<v Speaker 1>had been born in the Soviet Union and escaped to

0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.880
<v Speaker 1>the United States as a young woman to to get

0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:25.600
<v Speaker 1>away from Stalin's Russia. And Patterson is not very well known,

0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.600
<v Speaker 1>but in during her lifetime she was the most influential

0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:32.839
<v Speaker 1>book critic, probably in a in in New York City,

0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:35.960
<v Speaker 1>and a very powerful voice. And the three of them together,

0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.960
<v Speaker 1>they were friends and and they decided to kind of

0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:41.960
<v Speaker 1>push back against the New Deal. And so I decided

0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:43.360
<v Speaker 1>to write a little bit about them, and it turned

0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.120
<v Speaker 1>into a book that's more on the literary and political

0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.240
<v Speaker 1>history of the New Deal and of their own writing

0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:52.240
<v Speaker 1>in their own careers than anything else. UM. I like

0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.680
<v Speaker 1>the books pushing back against the New Deal because you know,

0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:58.439
<v Speaker 1>it's regularly hailed in mainstream media's an obviously good thing

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<v Speaker 1>for everyone in the country. UM how did how did

0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.400
<v Speaker 1>they define their political views? I mean, what was the

0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.080
<v Speaker 1>what were the main tenants of their political view? They

0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:11.280
<v Speaker 1>consider themselves individualists, so they didn't really use the word libertarian.

0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:15.760
<v Speaker 1>Um Rand particularly hated the word libertarians. They considered themselves

0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:19.160
<v Speaker 1>radicals for capitalism. That is, they were kind They were

0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:21.120
<v Speaker 1>a kind of liberal in the sense that they were

0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:24.360
<v Speaker 1>in favor of liberating individuals, which is what liberals used

0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:26.720
<v Speaker 1>to mean. But they thought the best way to liberate

0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.080
<v Speaker 1>individuals was through the free market, to let people do

0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:32.320
<v Speaker 1>their own thing and only bring that have the government

0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:34.960
<v Speaker 1>become involved if people start violating each other's rights by

0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:36.960
<v Speaker 1>taking their stuff away or beating them up or whatever.

0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.840
<v Speaker 1>They didn't believe in government as a savior or a

0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:43.320
<v Speaker 1>protector figure. And I think that's part of the reason

0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:47.840
<v Speaker 1>why they're being women. Was relevant because Patterson and Lane

0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.600
<v Speaker 1>were born in six so they were in their thirties

0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.720
<v Speaker 1>when the women got the right to vote in America,

0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:57.400
<v Speaker 1>and so they they were very familiar with the way

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<v Speaker 1>that being protected, or she did from from the the

0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:04.439
<v Speaker 1>harsh things in life, is really a euphemism for taking

0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:07.560
<v Speaker 1>people's freedom away from them. And of course, rand you know,

0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:09.760
<v Speaker 1>in the Soviet Union, they have been promised, oh well,

0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:13.200
<v Speaker 1>where government is going to oversee an era of utopia

0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:16.080
<v Speaker 1>and plenty, and she of course witnessed personally how that

0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:18.960
<v Speaker 1>actually worked out, so that I think they were especially

0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:22.040
<v Speaker 1>sensitive to the idea that being protected means taking your

0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:27.160
<v Speaker 1>freedom away. Interesting especially because it's it's fairly indisputable that

0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:30.040
<v Speaker 1>when women gained the right to vote, sympathy in chreased

0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:33.240
<v Speaker 1>a great deal for a more mommy ish government, a

0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.680
<v Speaker 1>more caretaker government. That was certainly their view. That was

0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:40.640
<v Speaker 1>certainly what Patterson thought. Patterson thought that she was very,

0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:43.840
<v Speaker 1>very a kind of a cynical personality, and she thought

0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:47.200
<v Speaker 1>that when the New Deal came along, the masculine virtues

0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.840
<v Speaker 1>all basically disappeared. And she late in her life she

0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:52.200
<v Speaker 1>used to say, I grew up in a in a

0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:54.960
<v Speaker 1>in a world where men were men. But she thought

0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.480
<v Speaker 1>that that with with the coming of Franklin Roosevelt and

0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:01.240
<v Speaker 1>the bureaucratic state that is supposed to protect everybody. That

0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:04.240
<v Speaker 1>men just vanished from the earth, and what we were

0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:07.400
<v Speaker 1>left with was guys who were just begging for favors

0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:11.000
<v Speaker 1>and protection instead. And it disgusted her Lane. Of course,

0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:13.480
<v Speaker 1>she grew up on the Western Frontier. She grew up

0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:15.800
<v Speaker 1>on the prairie. She hated it so much that she

0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.920
<v Speaker 1>moved to Albania to get away from it. But she

0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.520
<v Speaker 1>grew up in the West, and so she knew what

0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.240
<v Speaker 1>it was from her parents and her grandparents, what it was,

0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:28.200
<v Speaker 1>what what masculine virtues were necessary to settle the Western frontier.

0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:33.400
<v Speaker 1>And Rand had this idea of what masculine virtue meant of,

0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:37.520
<v Speaker 1>of being bold and uncompromising, self reliant and so forth,

0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:39.800
<v Speaker 1>and she thought that was being undermined by the New Deal.

0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.440
<v Speaker 1>So they all, they all thought the American character of

0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:46.920
<v Speaker 1>boldness and enterprises being destroyed by government intervention. That's fantastic.

0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.280
<v Speaker 1>I love that. I promise I will read this book.

0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.560
<v Speaker 1>And I, like I said, I love any pushback against

0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:56.160
<v Speaker 1>the idea that the New Deal was just overwhelmingly positive

0:15:56.200 --> 0:16:00.440
<v Speaker 1>for America. So the title is Freedom's Furies. How Isabel

0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.200
<v Speaker 1>Patterson Rosewild? Their Lane nine Rand found Liberty and Age

0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.400
<v Speaker 1>of Darkness will have a link at Armstrong and Getty

0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.200
<v Speaker 1>dot com so you can find it easily. Tim, We apologize,

0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.520
<v Speaker 1>but we're up against a heartbreak and must bid you

0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:14.880
<v Speaker 1>a fond Do you appreciate your time though, Thanks guys. Yeah,

0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:17.440
<v Speaker 1>it's always great to talk. Thanks Tom. Yeah, you run

0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:19.720
<v Speaker 1>into that all the time in mainstream media, that the

0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:21.640
<v Speaker 1>the new Deal, you know, that's that's what that's what

0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:23.840
<v Speaker 1>Biden should do. That's what you should do. This out

0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.680
<v Speaker 1>of the Darkness art Strong and Getty