Speaker 1: Who's that knocking at the door. It's all your friends.
Speaker 1: You've filthy horse, your husband's gone, and we've got books
Speaker 1: and a bottle of wine to kill. It's Hollywood, it's books,
Speaker 1: it's gossip. I'm sure it's memoir. It's Martini.
Speaker 2: Celebrity poof Club. To read it while it's hot. Celebrity
Speaker 2: poof Club, Tell your secrets.
Speaker 1: We won't talk celebrity books. No boys are a loud
Speaker 1: Celet say it loud and cloud Celebrity book Club.
Speaker 2: Buzz me in. I brought the queer vow.
Speaker 1: Hey, hey, best friend, how are you on this beautiful
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving week here in the United States of America?
Speaker 2: Oh, all salute to that? You know what all salute
Speaker 2: to today is blackout Wednesday. It's the fucking drunkest day
Speaker 2: of the year when you go to the bath with
Speaker 2: all your old friends and see all the exes, the
Speaker 2: girls you never got with, and you do shots and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so to all of you out there seeing the
Speaker 1: one that got away who's now totally old and fat,
Speaker 1: and you're feeling awesome because you're fanning. You have an
Speaker 1: amazing career.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're coming on to your small town that's
Speaker 2: actually like quaint and beautiful but still has like an
Speaker 2: iconic rough dive bar. And you walk in you're in
Speaker 2: a big cowl neck sweater.
Speaker 1: And then there's that guy that you always overlooked in
Speaker 1: high school because like he was a genera, but like
Speaker 1: now he runs like a local business that's like masculine
Speaker 1: but artisanal, that's just like large scaled landscaping and like
Speaker 1: urban design for just like progressive city parks.
Speaker 2: Wait, yes, this works because it's like your parents are like, oh, Liz,
Speaker 2: that's your name. We're thinking of like redoing instead of
Speaker 2: doing the normal you know, roses and gourds that we
Speaker 2: normally do, we're gonna put in a sustainable rock garden.
Speaker 2: And then he comes over to do your parents yard
Speaker 2: and you're like Chris.
Speaker 1: Right, And then you're like, wait a minute, you were
Speaker 1: the kind of dorky guy I ignored at the bar
Speaker 1: reunion last night, Like you actually have this like really
Speaker 1: interesting sustainable business that's local.
Speaker 2: And he brings you a coffee because you're so hungover,
Speaker 2: and it's like a maple coffee from your best friend
Speaker 2: who did stay home and open a second wave, third
Speaker 2: fourth wave maple. So if third wave coffee is like
Speaker 2: cold brew minimal lattes.
Speaker 1: With like succulents. Yeah, and then like and then what.
Speaker 2: I'm calling fourth wave and you may come for me
Speaker 2: is like suburbanification of third wave. So they like are
Speaker 2: taking the lattenus but then are making it like electric
Speaker 2: caffeinated Macha purple syrup.
Speaker 1: You're saying that it's getting like Christian Girl Autumn and
Speaker 1: like cheesier and more live left love. It's the live
Speaker 1: last love of vacation of third wave. Yeah, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna agree with you, but I think it's almost a
Speaker 1: devolution more than evolution, and it's just more like the
Speaker 1: kind of everything congealing into the same mass market slop
Speaker 1: where it's just like becoming this slightly Amazon prime aesthetic
Speaker 1: where it's like there is a geodesic planter with a
Speaker 1: succulent and also like a live laugh.
Speaker 2: Love signed together.
Speaker 1: You know what.
Speaker 2: It almost reminds me of how Apple computers used to
Speaker 2: be so cool and inventive, and now we all have
Speaker 2: the same Apple Watch that we don't even know how
Speaker 2: to use.
Speaker 1: Right wow, mail on that had Mama, thank you for
Speaker 1: bringing that app. You know, I read actually a lot
Speaker 1: about that in this book that I happened to read
Speaker 1: this morning and finish. Thank you very much.
Speaker 2: Wow are you talking about the three hundred page memoir
Speaker 2: by Say It with Me?
Speaker 1: Steve was Niak also known as was at his amazing book,
Speaker 1: I was computer geek to cult icon, how.
Speaker 2: I invented the personal computer.
Speaker 1: Co founded Apple and had fun doing it. There's an
Speaker 1: awesome photo on the cover of him playing the Apple
Speaker 1: to computer like a guitar. Wait, oh, wait, I have
Speaker 1: a totally different cover. Oh you have the kind of
Speaker 1: third wave cover.
Speaker 2: It says like I in an Apple way WAWS and
Speaker 2: then it's like the Apple colors of the.
Speaker 1: Apple rainbow on the side. Yours is very like post iPhone,
Speaker 1: like tech space, you know, when Apples started embracing this
Speaker 1: kind of like minimalist space.
Speaker 2: As I said, remember what Apple is. Wait, and yours
Speaker 2: is like him being so kooky.
Speaker 1: Mine is definitely more first wave. Mine is more central perk.
Speaker 1: So it's this black and white photo of him looking
Speaker 1: not like your father.
Speaker 2: Lily, Oh my god, No, I was the similarities between
Speaker 2: WAWS and like I mean, I think my dad was
Speaker 2: just like a tech head and was always buying like
Speaker 2: the new technology that failed, and this kind of like
Speaker 2: I'm a nerdy kid and like all I want to
Speaker 2: do is like reprogram like this Ham radio. Like, my
Speaker 2: dad made a censor in his nineteen fifties home so
Speaker 2: that he would know when his like father was like
Speaker 2: coming to his room.
Speaker 1: Really so he would stop masturbating depictures of old movie stars.
Speaker 2: No, I feel like he was reading Archie comics by
Speaker 2: like a small light and was like, uh oh, the
Speaker 2: sensor went off, Dada is coming.
Speaker 1: I actually once did that because I had gotten some
Speaker 1: toy for Christmas that was like a weird robot that
Speaker 1: like was sensor activated, and at some point I was
Speaker 1: grounded for some reason. God knows what I'd done, you rasped,
Speaker 1: But I wasn't allowed to play video games, which was
Speaker 1: actually so rude, And so I set up this motion
Speaker 1: sensor robot in the hallway so I would know when
Speaker 1: my mom was coming into the like kitchen where the
Speaker 1: wow was. So when I heard it like go off,
Speaker 1: I would then like hide the controller and like run
Speaker 1: and hide around the corner. She came in, and she
Speaker 1: had no idea that I was secretly playing video games
Speaker 1: all afternoon. Wait, wow, I know, so whah I was
Speaker 1: really was.
Speaker 2: But do you think she also like knew but was
Speaker 2: kind of being like, haha, let you have this like.
Speaker 1: Weird like she depended on because one time I wasn't
Speaker 1: fastened or whatever, and then she was like so disappointed,
Speaker 1: and I was kind of like, bitch, like you got played. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna feel fucking guilty.
Speaker 2: We also, do you just like hiding with your like
Speaker 2: control being like.
Speaker 1: Mah, yeah, I'm so pinking the brain.
Speaker 2: No, which is so was And if you guys are
Speaker 2: more kind of familiar with Steve.
Speaker 1: Jobs, yeah, then get a fucking clue. There was another
Speaker 1: man at the helm of Apple pouring secret ingredients into
Speaker 1: that brew, that cauldron that became the world's first trillion
Speaker 1: dollar company.
Speaker 2: Apple was was like, and is he's alive? He is
Speaker 2: like this shorter, kookier, nerdier, like furrier, just like guy
Speaker 2: who basically him and Steve met. They went to the
Speaker 2: same high school in California.
Speaker 1: Even though was five years older and was already graduated
Speaker 1: by the time he met Steve Jobs, and then was
Speaker 1: just kind of hanging out with this high school student.
Speaker 1: But he was like so autistic and nerdy and virginal
Speaker 1: that it wasn't weird because like he was basically like
Speaker 1: emotionally still like a high school student.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this book is like so cute and also
Speaker 2: just like completely insane. It was just like all about
Speaker 2: ram but like it's really written by a true nerd.
Speaker 1: It is the most like positive hunky dory book. It's
Speaker 1: ky running with Elvira's book where I was just like girl,
Speaker 1: like wipe the fucking grin off your face for two seconds.
Speaker 2: But even like stukier because even when in this book
Speaker 2: he's like kind of talking about like the drama between
Speaker 2: him and Steve Jobs, like he's just being like, well,
Speaker 2: like sure Steve did actually hide from me that he
Speaker 2: got a couple more thousand dollars for our first video game. Sure,
Speaker 2: I was mad, but I moved on and we both
Speaker 2: made a lot of money later.
Speaker 1: That was super shady of Steve Jobs. He references, you know,
Speaker 1: the differences in their personalities like a few times, but
Speaker 1: he's pretty coy about it. It's pretty subtle, pretty diplomatic.
Speaker 1: He's like really not trying to like make waves, but
Speaker 1: if you weep between the lines, yeah there is.
Speaker 2: But just to give you a little bit of background,
Speaker 2: like WA was was from California what we now call
Speaker 2: Menlo Park, which is the heart of Silicon Valley. Baby,
Speaker 2: it is.
Speaker 1: So funny that it's like these guys were actually like
Speaker 1: from there, literally from It's not like people came from
Speaker 1: the world to like go to California because like, oh well,
Speaker 1: like Stanford is there, like cal Tech. It's like he
Speaker 1: grew up in Silicon Valley, like Steve jobs al super
Speaker 1: Pysilicon Valley, Like they just happened to be there. And
Speaker 1: his dad, although I guess it's also like dad thing.
Speaker 1: I don't know who Steve jobsad would, but Waz's dad
Speaker 1: was an engineer and so like got him into like
Speaker 1: programming in radios and like tech and was like helping
Speaker 1: him be such a nerd at the Science Fair at
Speaker 1: age seven. So it's like, I guess maybe Waza's dad
Speaker 1: was living there so that he could do engineer style.
Speaker 2: His dad worked for Lock, Keith and Martin. He worked
Speaker 2: in the missile program, and he grew up in an
Speaker 2: Icler home.
Speaker 1: Yes, famous mid century designer who made these like gorgeous
Speaker 1: mid century houses that were so indoor outdoor living and
Speaker 1: like you know, you would pay like millions of dollars
Speaker 1: for a now but originally designed to like be for
Speaker 1: the perfect middle class family. Eh. And he was just like,
Speaker 1: don't worry, darling, very don't worry, darling.
Speaker 2: Men come home for their martinis after their job at
Speaker 2: the missile office.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the condurver thing. Got your martini, like from
Speaker 1: missile to Martini missiles. And then like he's like splaining
Speaker 1: somebody apricots and having this like most idyllic nineteen fifties childhood,
Speaker 1: like driving around on his tricycle like reprogramming ham radios
Speaker 1: with his other like autistic friends.
Speaker 2: And they all like sneak out at night to like
Speaker 2: program ham radios. He's like, I actually don't know what
Speaker 2: we did, which is also so fifties, like they were
Speaker 2: sneaking out. He never did drugs because he was just
Speaker 2: like nerdy and like wasn't into drinking because he literally
Speaker 2: saw his dad be so mean and Marchini and missile
Speaker 2: and his dad was being so mad men and angry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's this interesting thing in the beginning where he's
Speaker 1: talking about how like TVs used to work, and you
Speaker 1: will see how positive he is in this, so like
Speaker 1: people would take their TV tubes out and have to
Speaker 1: like go to the grocery store to repair them. When
Speaker 1: I was growing up, everybody who owned TVs and radios
Speaker 1: literally had to replace the bad vacuum tubes inside themselves.
Speaker 1: Grocery stores had the giant tube testers that everyone in
Speaker 1: the family, kids, parents, everyone knew how to use. He's
Speaker 1: being so like, from Grandma's to aunties, from cousins to kids,
Speaker 1: we all knew how to go to the grocery store.
Speaker 1: I mean, we knew that when the TV went bad,
Speaker 1: you opened it up and took all the tubes to
Speaker 1: the grocery store where you'd insert them into that machine.
Speaker 1: There was a meter on it that would tell you
Speaker 1: if the tube was good, weak, or bad. You could
Speaker 1: buy replacements for the bad tubes right there in the
Speaker 1: grocery store and take them home to reinsert your TV.
Speaker 2: This shook me not to be so like republican, being
Speaker 2: like when things used to work. But I'm just like,
Speaker 2: it isn't saying then the fifties just like we were
Speaker 2: straight up all like opening the TV, going to shop.
Speaker 1: Like new technology, people don't know how to troubleshoot their technow.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's what you're getting it. It's
Speaker 1: like if you had something you learned at least the
Speaker 1: basics comatics of kind of like how it functioned and
Speaker 1: like how you could replace things. And I do feel
Speaker 1: like even as technology you progress, it's like our knowledge
Speaker 1: of it has really minimized. And obviously AI is like
Speaker 1: the kind of the final conclusion of that of like
Speaker 1: no one having a single piece of information in their
Speaker 1: brains anymore, because I feel like there's done some studying
Speaker 1: by some study. I mean, I think I heard about
Speaker 1: an article once that I'm not sure if it's true,
Speaker 1: but it was like I don't know if someone was
Speaker 1: talking about trying to like do computer class with like
Speaker 1: kids these days, and it's like they don't even know
Speaker 1: like where files are on the Mac. It's like the
Speaker 1: Mac is already so simple the way I have.
Speaker 2: I've read a tweet about that article, and like it's
Speaker 2: very our, like that's our new boomer thing, Like millennials
Speaker 2: are so like did you hear kids don't even know
Speaker 2: how to use word, They can't organize a desktop, they
Speaker 2: don't know what a desktop is. But I feel like
Speaker 2: it's like this rise and now which Apple.
Speaker 1: Is responsible for the absolutely and fantilization of the consumer and.
Speaker 2: I think like what Steve was did was like make
Speaker 2: the Apple computer so people there was a time when
Speaker 2: people were like way more techy and knew everything and
Speaker 2: like we're really good at computers, and Apple helped them
Speaker 2: do that. And then Apple went further to take that
Speaker 2: away from everyone.
Speaker 1: And you see this kind of like just later on
Speaker 1: in this TV tube section, he goes, I remember wondering
Speaker 1: what it would take to build a tube that wouldn't
Speaker 1: burn out, or a TV that didn't need tubes to
Speaker 1: work at all, how much easier they would be for people.
Speaker 1: So you see as this kind of like almost like socialist,
Speaker 1: I want to change the world aspect of like we're
Speaker 1: going to make people's lives so much easier. Technology is
Speaker 1: going to able all of this freedom for the consumer,
Speaker 1: which obviously it has to a large extent. We're talking,
Speaker 1: you know, look at us right now, we're recording a podcast.
Speaker 1: In two different phrases actually reveal we're remote for this episode,
Speaker 1: which we rarely are.
Speaker 2: We like to be in person, yes.
Speaker 1: And nothing replaces in person chemistry. Yes, and Apple and
Speaker 1: their incredible.
Speaker 2: Technology chology has helped us.
Speaker 1: But it is also incredibly alienating, and it's also I
Speaker 1: think made a lot of people stupid. It's taken away
Speaker 1: our lives from us, It's taken away our attention, and
Speaker 1: now we are sort of trapped in a cycle of addiction.
Speaker 2: You could say, though, on the reverse side of like
Speaker 2: technology is like what is cool? I think about the
Speaker 2: youth because I'm actually like super in support of the
Speaker 2: youth and like I'm not here to knock them down.
Speaker 2: Is like it's made like certain youth also like amazing
Speaker 2: video editors. They're like able to create like websites and
Speaker 2: apps and just like you know, do things that but
Speaker 2: I don't know how to do.
Speaker 1: What are some awesome youth created websites that you love?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I actually have such a huge like.
Speaker 1: I would actually argue that websites have never been worse.
Speaker 1: I feel like any website I go to today there's
Speaker 1: eighteen thousand pop up ads, like embedded video playing inside
Speaker 1: the pop up ad, like inside the article. I can't
Speaker 1: even look at a stor.
Speaker 2: Tell me more about video editing. And just like kids
Speaker 2: on TikTok.
Speaker 1: Okay, but like, isn't the secret of TikTok too it
Speaker 1: is they're actually spending so long editing those videos I
Speaker 1: don't know if they're any better at it than people
Speaker 1: were ten years ago.
Speaker 2: They're taking definitely a long time, but they're also like
Speaker 2: doing it like I remember taking this like classic camp
Speaker 2: where we like edited VHS's like real to real VHS.
Speaker 1: Oh, it was actually exec.
Speaker 2: Insane dope machine.
Speaker 1: All your video art in college was being so eight millimeter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they really tried to be way more reverse
Speaker 2: in old school and taught us how to tape the
Speaker 2: film together, like caught at literally whis scissors and tape it.
Speaker 2: But I just got it transferred to digital and just
Speaker 2: like it looks so from the past.
Speaker 1: Because Okay, so you were kind of being this badass
Speaker 1: kid as like, no, dude, I'm gonna put it on digital,
Speaker 1: but make it look old.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, and then it did.
Speaker 1: Teacher's mind's gonna be fucking blown. But I think you
Speaker 1: see at this point, though, like the sort of seeds
Speaker 1: of the switch of him and Steve Jobs are being
Speaker 1: planted where it's like he does have this more like
Speaker 1: positive view of what technology should do, whereas Steve Jobs
Speaker 1: like is more of like a technofascist migl at maniac
Speaker 1: in the like Zuckerberg musk realm, who's just like I
Speaker 1: a want to make a gazillion dollars, Like, yes, I
Speaker 1: want to like push technology forward, but like I'm imagining
Speaker 1: in a world where people become completely addicted to our
Speaker 1: products they cannot live without them. And also we designed
Speaker 1: them to like fail after three years. You need to
Speaker 1: buy anyone all the time just.
Speaker 2: To jump ahead. I feel like now that you brought
Speaker 2: it up the first time, like Steve Waws discovers that
Speaker 2: Apple was like trying to make products to fail is
Speaker 2: around the time he was like, I actually kind of
Speaker 2: want to leave to back it up. Steve makes when
Speaker 2: he's working at HP, the first ever the Apple, where
Speaker 2: he like, you see letters on the screen and he
Speaker 2: gets inspired by the game Pong that he sees like
Speaker 2: at a pizza parlor, which I thought was so cool,
Speaker 2: and I was like, it's actually blew my mind that
Speaker 2: I was like, wait, video games were pre home computers.
Speaker 1: And Steve Jobs worked at Atari. So while Steve Jobs
Speaker 1: is at Atari, Waws is over at HP and that
Speaker 1: all of the guys were meeting up in their garages
Speaker 1: and being so like it was called the Homebrew the
Speaker 1: Wild West at the Homebrew of like the early days technology,
Speaker 1: like a lot of them were working for video game companies,
Speaker 1: Like that's where it all went down. It also makes
Speaker 1: sense though, because it's like that is the fusion of
Speaker 1: like inputting something with some sort of device and then
Speaker 1: it's showing up on a screen because those original apples,
Speaker 1: they didn't even have screens. We had to hook them
Speaker 1: up to like a screen of your own choosing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you had to buy one. And so like when
Speaker 2: Steve Waz sees he's out like a pizza partner with
Speaker 2: his first wife, Alice, and it is crazy at this
Speaker 2: point that he's like getting girls.
Speaker 1: Well he gets one girl, but.
Speaker 2: Then he gets married again, and then he's married four
Speaker 2: times and dated Kathy Griffin.
Speaker 1: Okay, but he's the kind of guy where it's like
Speaker 1: because he meets her when she calls into that hilarious
Speaker 1: dial a joke thing, which he starts doing because he
Speaker 1: gets obsessed with phones because he reads an article in
Speaker 1: GQ magazine about people like hacking payphones and like being
Speaker 1: able to call anywhere in the world by like tricking
Speaker 1: the operator.
Speaker 2: This is so iconic, it's called the phone freak community.
Speaker 2: And so when Waz reads this article, that's like a
Speaker 2: fictional article called the Blue Box that's about people hacking
Speaker 2: telephone lines. Not a fictional article, no, no, no, no, babe,
Speaker 2: it was fiction.
Speaker 1: Captain Crunch exists find but okay, did you.
Speaker 2: Read the book book it's a fictional article. And then
Speaker 2: he breaks into a library to test what they're saying
Speaker 2: in the fictional article is real, and then it is
Speaker 2: and it blows his mind. I'm kind of imagine how
Speaker 2: you can open up Cosmo and there's a fictional article
Speaker 2: about a slutty girl at college. Right, it was like
Speaker 2: meets a guy and then becomes a nun and it
Speaker 2: may just be inspired by true of him.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, I get it was probably built as fiction
Speaker 1: because they didn't want to get these people in trouble.
Speaker 2: Yes, And like when he reads this article, he's like,
Speaker 2: I had literal chills, and he's like, so I called
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs instantly, and we put together eight hundred mz
Speaker 2: with a twelve hundred m Z and we tapped it
Speaker 2: together and dialed five five five.
Speaker 1: Because this whole time this Blue Box thing is happening,
Speaker 1: he's basically being such a cop and he keeps being
Speaker 1: just like, I would never use this bar to make
Speaker 1: a free phone call on the phone company's dime.
Speaker 2: This is not just how fucking like nerdy Steve is.
Speaker 1: Okay, but see even though he's like a cop and
Speaker 1: Nott whant to pay money. When he does get arrested
Speaker 1: for putting a fake bomb in his friend's locker a
Speaker 1: school with like a metronum device that would tick and
Speaker 1: would tick faster once you open the locker, so people
Speaker 1: think go back to explode, and like a teacher like
Speaker 1: trying to like disarm it. He gets rested, he teaches
Speaker 1: the other prisoners in jail how to shock guards with
Speaker 1: electrical wires by like electrocuting the bars of the cell.
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, you're being so ab. No, he
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, steal from the phone company because that's
Speaker 1: not ethical.
Speaker 2: Around this time, also he becomes like very like anti
Speaker 2: Vietnam War and he's like, well, my Martini missile dad
Speaker 2: told me like we had to go kill him in
Speaker 2: the Vietnam War. And then he's like, well, then I
Speaker 2: started reading about it and it didn't make quite sense
Speaker 2: to me, just like there should be peace in the world, yeah,
Speaker 2: and just like actually, why should they disarm them? And
Speaker 2: then he becomes like this. It's like very his personality
Speaker 2: where he's like, well, I was anti Vietnam, warn I
Speaker 2: loved like Bob Dylan, but like he is just such
Speaker 2: like this nerve He's like, but I didn't connect. And
Speaker 2: I was wearing just like a button up Oxford shirt
Speaker 2: and khakis and like, yes, I had like a slim
Speaker 2: little headband. Yeah, but I wore but like which also
Speaker 2: my dad did. He had like one little leather headband.
Speaker 1: Oh, I know the photo of your dad you're talking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, But also was like so nerdy, I feel
Speaker 2: like and not.
Speaker 1: Doing drugs and like no, Waz was like not really
Speaker 1: like getting to hang out with any of the hippies,
Speaker 1: even though he was like from a logic standpoint, understanding
Speaker 1: that the Viennam Moore didn't make sense and that the
Speaker 1: Gulf of Tonkin was just like completely faked with this
Speaker 1: CIA as like a pretense for war and like that's
Speaker 1: fucked up and I don't believe that from an ethical
Speaker 1: or logical standpoint. However, also do not want to do
Speaker 1: drugs because I want to be smart my own and
Speaker 1: I'm afraid and.
Speaker 2: I want to like tap and deal with ram. So
Speaker 2: basically it's like him and Steve become phone freaks. But
Speaker 2: then he goes to college and like he also has
Speaker 2: like such an insane like college wild ride. But then
Speaker 2: in some years when he has like discovers this like
Speaker 2: video game, he drops out of college with Steve jobs
Speaker 2: to make the Apple computer and is like almost doesn't
Speaker 2: do it because he's like, well, I have this job.
Speaker 1: At HP, Like why should I because he's so just
Speaker 1: like the ethical thing to do is continue to make job.
Speaker 1: And then I couldn't believe when he was so desperately
Speaker 1: trying to get HP to like sign out. He was like, well,
Speaker 1: everything that we've thought of while I was working at
Speaker 1: HP is technically HP's property, So I need to tell
Speaker 1: HP about all our ideas. And he like tells them
Speaker 1: multiple times about like their designs for the Apple one.
Speaker 2: And he literally is arrest me, arrest me, and they're like,
Speaker 2: you're not copying actually anything from HP. It's like fine,
Speaker 2: And he's like basically going to HP like at night
Speaker 2: and is like fiddling with so many motherboards to like
Speaker 2: create the computer.
Speaker 1: It's like he's literally trying to give HP Apple on
Speaker 1: a platter, and they're being like, sys, we're good, like
Speaker 1: go off into your thing, like it's so random and nerdy,
Speaker 1: and also like it's just kind of like I don't
Speaker 1: know personal computers. It's like not really our thing. It's
Speaker 1: not really gonna work, Like.
Speaker 2: We don't do that, like your calculator asks can like
Speaker 2: move on.
Speaker 1: It's so funny because wow, HP, they didn't have the
Speaker 1: vision then, and they still don't. They still they're still
Speaker 1: just making fucking printers.
Speaker 2: Right still like in the corner at Staples collecting dust mama.
Speaker 2: But I mean I guess like they're still going.
Speaker 1: They still exist, and people still need printers, and like
Speaker 1: I just feel like most of HP's business at this
Speaker 1: point is like selling like a really big printer to
Speaker 1: just like whatever the like.
Speaker 2: I think it's corporate sales.
Speaker 1: Whatever the like kazakhstanding equivalent of the DMV is and
Speaker 1: they're just like they're always just having to go repair.
Speaker 2: I mean printers. I'm staring at my printer right now,
Speaker 2: Like printers are the biggest scam in the entire world,
Speaker 2: honestly more than Apple, because like printers are just gonna
Speaker 2: stop working, and like.
Speaker 1: I'm sure half their business is just repairing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just want to put a pin and dial
Speaker 2: the joke right before, or kind of as Steve was
Speaker 2: is like creating the Apple computer. He literally runs a
Speaker 2: dial a joke line where he bought a book of
Speaker 2: one thousand and one the most popular joke book in
Speaker 2: the country then, which was two thousand and one Italian
Speaker 2: and Polish jokes, and you dial the number and like,
Speaker 2: he reads a Polish joke and then the Polish embassy
Speaker 2: was like, stop, this is racist, and he was like,
Speaker 2: but I'm Polish and he was like, well, can I
Speaker 2: do Italian jokes? And they were like yes, And then
Speaker 2: he's like, years later, the Polish Embassy actually gave me
Speaker 2: an a word for me an accomplished pull up. And
Speaker 2: then that's how he meets his wife and then his
Speaker 2: other like completely insane scam even though he's like so
Speaker 2: for like ethics is he creates did a fake PanAm
Speaker 2: phone line where people called him and he made up
Speaker 2: ridiculous flights for them and they booked them with him
Speaker 2: and they were fake flights. He was like, so, I
Speaker 2: tried to think of the craziest worst time someone would
Speaker 2: fly and give that the cheapest number. And he was like,
Speaker 2: at one point I asked people do you want to
Speaker 2: ride Cargo.
Speaker 1: Sere is this other scam in college. He first goes
Speaker 1: to college in Colorado, which he was totally enamored by
Speaker 1: because when he went there was snowing. They didn't really
Speaker 1: have you know, intense snow and Menlo Park at that time.
Speaker 1: And he does this scam where he figures out how
Speaker 1: to kind of jam the TV reception a little bit
Speaker 1: and like vary in a phone way. Like there was
Speaker 1: only like one TV before, so like all the dorm
Speaker 1: kids are all watching TV together and then he would
Speaker 1: be in his pocket with having this like little like
Speaker 1: device that he created that could like make the TV staticky,
Speaker 1: and then he would like turn it on and then
Speaker 1: somebody would slap the TV and he would like turn
Speaker 1: it off. So then he started like getting them to
Speaker 1: do like increasingly like ridiculous things with their bodies, like
Speaker 1: the stand on one leg and like they were kind
Speaker 1: of falling for He was like, Oh, is this amazing
Speaker 1: experiment with these like guinea pigs. I was getting people
Speaker 1: to like behave like total weirdos trying to get the
Speaker 1: TV to work like all while he's sitting in the
Speaker 1: back of the room.
Speaker 2: And everyone's banging and screaming TVs and he's being so
Speaker 2: like nerd like and be like, ah, but it isn't
Speaker 2: in a evil I'm a nerd and I was bullied way.
Speaker 2: It's in a more like how ridiculous is logic? How
Speaker 2: someone would be happy to hitto TV? But not a person?
Speaker 1: Yes and no, because I do think there is something
Speaker 1: profoundly antisocial about that, because he's basically sitting at the
Speaker 1: back of the class, like not talking to people, like
Speaker 1: fucking with this TV and being like it's funny to me.
Speaker 1: But it's like he only ever told one other person
Speaker 1: about it. He's actually not even friends with any of
Speaker 1: these people. He's just like kind of pulling the wires
Speaker 1: from behind, and you know, he talks about how shy
Speaker 1: he is. There's this part early on we talked about
Speaker 1: how like really worn the porn.
Speaker 2: When he moves into his like first college dorm and
Speaker 2: he's like my roommate who was named Randy weird name,
Speaker 2: and he is like he put Playboy posters up.
Speaker 1: On the wall and he was like he was a
Speaker 1: little more advanced than me, and he brought even a
Speaker 1: Mormon girl home one time. It's like, this guy's so
Speaker 1: much game and Waz was just like so nerdy and
Speaker 1: like jacking out in the back of the class, like
Speaker 1: while like fucking with TVs. Like this is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: It's like, I do think there's something really anti social
Speaker 1: about it. Like, even if it's not.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I just wonder if he's so nerdy to this
Speaker 2: point of not even having this self awareness that he
Speaker 2: sense people with social skills.
Speaker 1: In an in cell way. Yes, I think obviously this
Speaker 1: book would not express that resentment, but I wonder if
Speaker 1: it's there in his private life. He goes from our
Speaker 1: elementary school on even after starting Apple and Beyond, I
Speaker 1: used my clever designs as an easier, more comfortable way
Speaker 1: to communicate with others. I believe all of us humans
Speaker 1: have an internally desocialized In my case, it came up
Speaker 1: mainly by doing impressive things like electronics and incredibly showy
Speaker 1: and clever things like pranks. It was probably the shinest
Speaker 1: thing that in sixth grade and afterward put me on
Speaker 1: the hunt for electronics journals. That way I could read
Speaker 1: about electronic self without actually having to go walk up
Speaker 1: to someone and ask questions. I was too shy to
Speaker 1: even go to a library and ask for a book
Speaker 1: on computers called computers, And because I was too shy
Speaker 1: to learn the ordinary way, I ended up getting what
Speaker 1: was to me the most important knowledge in the world accidentally.
Speaker 1: And so here he is the inventor of the personal computer,
Speaker 1: who was profoundly shy, saying that he wanted to invent
Speaker 1: these devices that could enable communication. And of course they do.
Speaker 1: And yet I also wonder if because all this technology
Speaker 1: was invented by these like insane autists, I'm like, does
Speaker 1: technology also enable shyness? Because of course today we look
Speaker 1: at the absolute autism epidemic we're living through and the
Speaker 1: way the technology could be so alienating. I wonder if
Speaker 1: it's almost the original sin of like the shy nerds
Speaker 1: who invented it being kind of passed down and it's
Speaker 1: like some of that like in cel jealousy, maybe that
Speaker 1: you're reverencing that secretly there has like been almost wetted
Speaker 1: in to the motherboards and has been passed down in
Speaker 1: motherboard motherboard.
Speaker 2: And I think technology just on a broad scale of
Speaker 2: you know, the shyness and you know, like social outcast thing.
Speaker 2: It's you know, it's not black and white. But I
Speaker 2: think on the good side is like it's brought so
Speaker 2: much community to people like the Steve Waughs, who would
Speaker 2: not be able to make friends otherwise, and like, you know,
Speaker 2: who can find community that way and be like, wait,
Speaker 2: there's another friend who likes this game and they're like
Speaker 2: in London, and I'm just like I'm in Calgary. Yes,
Speaker 2: you know. But then of course there's a devil aside
Speaker 2: to it, which is it keeps you in the room.
Speaker 1: Yes, I but I say, wonder if even in that
Speaker 1: television example, like was was like, yes, he found community
Speaker 1: with other nerds, but he still then retained this kind
Speaker 1: of antisocialness. So I wonder if even once you find community,
Speaker 1: it doesn't actually help you socialize any better. And then
Speaker 1: if we look at the nerds of today, you know,
Speaker 1: you go back to me going on MySpace when I
Speaker 1: was like fourteen and like going on video game message boards,
Speaker 1: like I was doing that. I don't know if that
Speaker 1: was helping me become a more social person. I think
Speaker 1: was helping me become a more social person was meeting
Speaker 1: other people in real life. And you and me like
Speaker 1: going to the movies as kids as teams.
Speaker 2: Well that was beautiful, And I think we're literally vol
Speaker 2: I think we're lucky to meet other LGBTQ folks like
Speaker 2: each other who had the same interest in middle school.
Speaker 2: And I think like some people that really weren't that lucky,
Speaker 2: and like you do have to go on you know,
Speaker 2: the message boards. And I think with Waz it's like
Speaker 2: things that also helped him become actually more social were
Speaker 2: like kind of practice in a way, like having to
Speaker 2: work with these people, having to like then like once
Speaker 2: he got money, like making a music.
Speaker 1: Festival, yes, the US festival, the US. Was so excited
Speaker 1: to meet van Halen later on.
Speaker 2: And then he realizes overpaying van Halen. But we talk
Speaker 2: about antiocial. I mean, he really boils down the difference
Speaker 2: between him and Steve Jobs, like quite plainly, where he's
Speaker 2: like I am someone And this is when like Apple was,
Speaker 2: you know, going public, and he basically was like, I
Speaker 2: don't want to be like a CEO. I want to
Speaker 2: stay an engineer, Like I want to be the guy
Speaker 2: I like mixing up motherboards. And he says, I'm the
Speaker 2: type of guy who likes to have fun with a
Speaker 2: couple of friends in a garage working on projects. I
Speaker 2: do not want to manage people, and I like fun
Speaker 2: and joke. Steve Jobs is the type of guy who
Speaker 2: basically wants to manage people, wants money, like wants power.
Speaker 1: And of course you know the two of them. The
Speaker 1: company would never existed without Steve Jobs. Yeah, you needed
Speaker 1: Steve's marketing genius. I mean Steve Jobs like came up
Speaker 1: with the word apple because he had just been like
Speaker 1: at an apple orchard that weekend.
Speaker 2: That was wasn't that crazy?
Speaker 1: Yeah, just can be so simple, he goes, believe it
Speaker 1: or not, it was a couple of slater We came
Speaker 1: with a name for the partnership. I remember I was
Speaker 1: driving seat back from the airport along Highway eighty five,
Speaker 1: Steve coming back from a visit to Oregon to a
Speaker 1: place he called and quote apple orchard. It's like a
Speaker 1: place he called an apple orchard. It's just like that's
Speaker 1: a thing that exists. Was an apple orchard? Is in
Speaker 1: quotes in the book.
Speaker 2: Well let's take it back.
Speaker 1: Well, then he goes, it was actually some kind of
Speaker 1: a commune. I guess he's saying that.
Speaker 2: Like I think it was so seven d's and maybe
Speaker 2: he was going to some sex retreat and being like, sure, Jobs,
Speaker 2: it was an apple it was.
Speaker 1: An apple orchard. Okay, like so nerdy, and he's only
Speaker 1: had sex with his like married wife once, and he's like,
Speaker 1: by the.
Speaker 2: Way, he tries to save his marriage to Alice, he
Speaker 2: joins the Freemasons to spend more time with his wife,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't work. I feel like she's like, I'll
Speaker 2: do anything to get away from.
Speaker 1: Your probably because he was just like playing pranks on
Speaker 1: the Freemasons, like with like his weird just like remote
Speaker 1: control motherboard in the back of the room instead of
Speaker 1: doing their weird rituals or whatever.
Speaker 2: And then he's like, well, I hated religion, but I
Speaker 2: still like became this freemason. And then he's like, and
Speaker 2: then we did get divorced, but I guess I'm still
Speaker 2: a Freemason. But he gets married again, and like he
Speaker 2: gets married four times, and his second wedding sounds so dope.
Speaker 2: Emmy Lou Harris plays.
Speaker 1: Yeah, by that time, he's like rich and famous and
Speaker 1: he's just like Emilily Harris, one of my good longtime friends. Anyway,
Speaker 1: if I could just finish the Apple story, he goes,
Speaker 1: Steve's just in a name Apple computer. The first comment
Speaker 1: out of my mouth was, what about Apple Records. This
Speaker 1: was and still is the Beatles' own record label. We
Speaker 1: both tried to come up with technical sounding names that
Speaker 1: were better, but we couldn't think of any good ones.
Speaker 1: Apple was so much better, better than any other name
Speaker 1: we could think of, so Apple it was Apple. It
Speaker 1: had to be. And Steve didn't think Apple Records would
Speaker 1: have a problem since it was probably because it was
Speaker 1: a totally different business. So there's two things here that
Speaker 1: I think are really true. One, if you have the
Speaker 1: same name as a company but it's a totally different
Speaker 1: industry doesn't matter. I think that's great too. It's like
Speaker 1: trust your gut. They didn't sit around thinking like we
Speaker 1: should call it like next Gen or Infotech or like
Speaker 1: some other kind of cool high tech sounding name. They
Speaker 1: were just like, this just has this really beautiful, rounded,
Speaker 1: simple quality to it that feels so positive. But obviously
Speaker 1: the Isaac Newton Association. They were just like, it has
Speaker 1: to be this, and it's like, don't fight it.
Speaker 2: They'd never thinking. I also think they're beginning yang is that,
Speaker 2: like Steve Waz says, like they would get in fights.
Speaker 2: But I think, like Steve was also like trusted jobs
Speaker 2: vision of more like social aspects, which I would call
Speaker 2: like naming things.
Speaker 1: Yes, and I think consumer facing, but it makes sense.
Speaker 2: It's like there was so much out there, like IBM
Speaker 2: existed and everything was being so info ram Ham operator.
Speaker 2: But yeah, they were inventing their first personal computer. So
Speaker 2: make it something everyone eats personal personal baby Apple a day.
Speaker 1: And like all good companies, the only thing you really
Speaker 1: have to do is stick with it, and then it
Speaker 1: becomes the thing I always tell people Google sounded silly
Speaker 1: the first time someone heard it. Sounded like baby, look
Speaker 1: at it now, So sim and Steve. I was just saying,
Speaker 1: very different people, very different people. They one of their
Speaker 1: first things, like they were building this computer for Atari,
Speaker 1: and Atari had wanted them to try to make a game,
Speaker 1: and like Waz was really good at making things with
Speaker 1: less chips, like that's how he basically ended up being
Speaker 1: able to design a computer that would be smaller because
Speaker 1: someuntil then computers were massive, and like my mom was
Speaker 1: always talking about computers being like, oh, at Stanford's a
Speaker 1: computer it took up an entire building and it had
Speaker 1: punch cards. You had to put in the punch card
Speaker 1: to run the program. And so they designed this like
Speaker 1: racing game for Atari that's much smaller. They both got
Speaker 1: mono like staying up all night building this game. The
Speaker 1: whole thing used forty five chips, and Steve paid me
Speaker 1: half the seven hundred bucks he said they paid for him.
Speaker 1: They were paying us based on how few chips I
Speaker 1: could do it in. Later I found out he got
Speaker 1: paid a bit more for it, like a few thousand
Speaker 1: dollars than he had said at the time. But we
Speaker 1: were kids, you know. He got paid one amount and
Speaker 1: told me he got paid another. He wasn't honest with me,
Speaker 1: and I was hurt, but I didn't make a big
Speaker 1: deal about it or Yeah, it's like what esex always
Speaker 1: mattered to me. And I still don't really understand why
Speaker 1: he would have gotten paid one thing and told me
Speaker 1: he gotten paid another. But you know, people are different,
Speaker 1: And in no way do I regret the experience at
Speaker 1: Atari with Steve jobs. He was my best friend, was
Speaker 1: what and I still feel extremely linked with him. I
Speaker 1: wish him well and it was a great project that
Speaker 1: was so fun. Anyway, in the long run of money,
Speaker 1: Steve and I both ended up getting very comfortable money
Speaker 1: wise from my work founding Apple. Just a few years later,
Speaker 1: it's retainly didn't a d up too much, like.
Speaker 2: Such crazy tea, because this is their first project together,
Speaker 2: like before the Apple one computer, and this is early
Speaker 2: on the book and he's kind of laying it out
Speaker 2: for everyone, being like yeah, no, no, no, he got paid
Speaker 2: four thousand and I got seven hundred. I'm cool and
Speaker 2: we are linked.
Speaker 1: We are linked, and obviously we're both incredibly wealthy from
Speaker 1: our work founding Apple, which you've may have heard of. However,
Speaker 1: he obviously is a snake in the grass and I
Speaker 1: would never try. It's like, wow, that is so shady.
Speaker 2: It's so shady, and it's like.
Speaker 1: I can't even wrap my head around how shady it is.
Speaker 2: It really makes you think about when people are starting
Speaker 2: out and that first paycheck, that first view of fame.
Speaker 2: It feels like that's the only thing you're gonna get. Yeah,
Speaker 2: people show you who they are, believe it.
Speaker 1: I just you know, because you and I are always
Speaker 1: starting businesses together, and like we're honest about money. We
Speaker 1: never lie, and like it's like if I thought that
Speaker 1: I should have more money than you, I would just
Speaker 1: tell you. I'd be like, listen, Lily, I got a
Speaker 1: check from four k for Atari. I'm taking three k
Speaker 1: ultimately that's what's happening. But here's your one K. I
Speaker 1: thank you so much for the work that you've done.
Speaker 2: You know, my mother always says, you know, the main
Speaker 2: thing in a marriage, you need to be able to
Speaker 2: talk about finance its finances. And if I can skip
Speaker 2: ahead for a second, this is when Walls doesn't quit
Speaker 2: because he says he still works at Apple, but you know,
Speaker 2: they're making the Apple two, they're making the Apple three.
Speaker 2: There's drama. He's like, can I just go back to
Speaker 2: like making something? And he has all these devices. He
Speaker 2: has his laser disc player now in his big Santa
Speaker 2: Cruz mansion. He has his Bang and Olsen record player,
Speaker 2: which I held, so is the record player I grew
Speaker 2: up with your dad and was was. And he's like,
Speaker 2: I wish I just had one remote for everything. Oh
Speaker 2: and he wants to create a universal remote, which he does,
Speaker 2: but he's like, I have to leave Apple to do this,
Speaker 2: so he leaves Apple. They're like, it's fine.
Speaker 1: I'm saying that he leaves Apple to create a universal remote,
Speaker 1: which to this day is still just like not really.
Speaker 2: You such an as seen on Team such.
Speaker 1: An as Tevy thing that actually just doesn't work, and like, yes,
Speaker 1: we all need them, and it's like we all know
Speaker 1: what happens when we go home to our parents' homes.
Speaker 1: There are six remotes. They can't figure around anyone.
Speaker 2: They're scared of them, and they're like, don't touch that
Speaker 2: one because like actually that will ruin everything.
Speaker 1: Will ruin everything, And it's like they still haven't figured
Speaker 1: it out. I mean, I guess we just all stream now,
Speaker 1: that's how how they solved the problem. Was streaming was
Speaker 1: just having it all come out of one TV and
Speaker 1: now we don't have other objects, and then we.
Speaker 2: Have we're streaming Spotify to our Bluetooth, so you don't
Speaker 2: have need a remote to turn on your subword.
Speaker 1: I guess technically it's like my Rokum does control my
Speaker 1: Sono soundbar. Thank you to Roku for kind of solving
Speaker 1: that issue.
Speaker 2: But like was walked so Roku could run, Like.
Speaker 1: I don't think they were pulling up his old designs
Speaker 1: for his Universe remote and they like, oh, but come.
Speaker 2: On, I mean, like they wouldn't even have the idea
Speaker 2: of was didn't and the idea of having one remote.
Speaker 1: The idea of one remote, no I mean it was huge.
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe that other guy, Ron Wayne, who they
Speaker 1: founded Apple with, who had ten percent of Apple and
Speaker 1: they bought him out for eight hundred dollars.
Speaker 2: Eight one hundred dollars. Wait before I get into the
Speaker 2: Steve jobs remote tension, ISA was is so lit and
Speaker 2: basically like when right before they went public, the board
Speaker 2: of Apple wanted to be like, well, only executives get
Speaker 2: their first ticket shares and Waz was like, no, that's
Speaker 2: not cool, Like let's be more socialist about it, like
Speaker 2: it should be the engineers, it should be the secretaries.
Speaker 2: And they were like, you're crazy, You're losing so much money.
Speaker 1: And he let them all buy his shares. He said,
Speaker 1: group blocks of his shares for five dollars to various employees,
Speaker 1: and only like forty employees took him up on it.
Speaker 1: But I'm sure they're all millionaires now.
Speaker 2: Thank you to literally millionaires. It's also this thing of
Speaker 2: him being like he'd already had a lot of money.
Speaker 2: He was like, how much money do you need? Like
Speaker 2: my passion is making remotes in a garage. I don't
Speaker 2: need to hoard.
Speaker 1: The man wants to tinker, he doesn't need a bigger
Speaker 1: and bigger and bigger house.
Speaker 2: Whenever, like I feel like, you hear about some random
Speaker 2: person having money and they're like, oh, well they got
Speaker 2: Apple stock.
Speaker 1: Really it's always that's always like, oh, she was actually
Speaker 1: the in house massuse for Apple in the early days.
Speaker 1: Now she's a billionaire.
Speaker 2: So they go public money money money they're making like
Speaker 2: the Apple X three or whatever. He's just like, well,
Speaker 2: this makes no sense because the Apple two is what's selling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got such a be in his bonnet about
Speaker 1: the Apple three not being good. It's like, because the
Speaker 1: Apple three had a screen. It's like, honey, at some point,
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to put a screen on this computer.
Speaker 1: When did you first get like an Apple commit Did
Speaker 1: you guys have a computer before you had like your iMac?
Speaker 2: I think when I was like nine, I remember my
Speaker 2: dad having the thickest Apple laptop, Apple laptop literally Apple.
Speaker 2: He was like an early Apple laptop and it was
Speaker 2: like gray and like nine hundred pounds and I want
Speaker 2: to say that was like ninety six or something. And
Speaker 2: then we had also like a huge Apple computer.
Speaker 1: So that's my mother about this. She texted me, did
Speaker 1: not have Apple at the beginning in the eighties. Hancock,
Speaker 1: this is the company she worked at, kept to PCs
Speaker 1: and huge IBM mainframes. We had quote dumb terminals at
Speaker 1: our desks which could access the mainframe. They were not portable.
Speaker 1: Then we got PCs which were portable and then plugged
Speaker 1: into a home base that had a big screen back
Speaker 1: in the office. My first work PC was a Toshiba.
Speaker 1: Of course, you're at the dial up to get a connection.
Speaker 1: You also had to insert floppy disk for word processing
Speaker 1: in spreadsheets. I had a big modem in the sewing
Speaker 1: machine room. Oh, in our house. Okay, Then she's sending
Speaker 1: this photo of this Toshiba T eleven hundred. She goes,
Speaker 1: the Toshiba was my first laptop. You were not even
Speaker 1: born yet, so she had.
Speaker 2: A Toshiba laptop in like eighty five.
Speaker 1: This thing is basically a word processor. The screen is
Speaker 1: like it's just text where.
Speaker 2: It's like you could send it to a printer. I
Speaker 2: remember using a word processor as a kid and just
Speaker 2: like writing random stuff.
Speaker 1: What were you.
Speaker 2: Probably like weird stories and stuff. Sorry, I tinker, I'm weird.
Speaker 2: I'm literally walls. I was probably just like. There was
Speaker 2: a gangster living in Cambridge. His name was Frankie the
Speaker 2: rat Y.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's wild. Oh wait, I wanted to ask because
Speaker 1: he did so many science fairs. Did you do science?
Speaker 1: I think you must have because you were in middle
Speaker 1: school with me. There was a science fair. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: was your science project?
Speaker 2: I was so bad at science. Yeah, Like I don't remember.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I must have done something with This book
Speaker 2: really brought made me think of was like the robotics
Speaker 2: class I took in college, where I really like, it's
Speaker 2: like theoretically, like it would be so cool to be
Speaker 2: like tinkering and wires and like I always did love
Speaker 2: going to radio shack, but I'm also so not tech
Speaker 2: brained at all.
Speaker 1: You found it really gender affirming to be in a
Speaker 1: radio shack.
Speaker 2: But yes, and like I love just circuit boards, and
Speaker 2: I feel like I was always like taking part of
Speaker 2: circred boards to like put it on my wall in
Speaker 2: more of a collage mixed media space.
Speaker 1: Okay, because you were also being like, it's so like Hacker.
Speaker 1: You were kind of into like Hacker in like a
Speaker 1: Berlin aesthetic way.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was a Cocker aesthetic and like the greens
Speaker 2: of it and the switches. I thought that was so
Speaker 2: cool so I took those robotics class and it just
Speaker 2: like the guy who thought it was such a walls
Speaker 2: and it was like just assumed you knew a certain
Speaker 2: like a little bit of code, and he would just
Speaker 2: give these assignments and I'd be like we but dial
Speaker 2: it back, like literally what? And I feel like he
Speaker 2: just kind of felt bad for me. And I tried
Speaker 2: to like put two wires together, but nothing really happened there.
Speaker 1: And did you pass robotics?
Speaker 2: I passed. I think I tried okay, and I had
Speaker 2: like a partner, but I didn't really it didn't click.
Speaker 2: What did you make in the science fair?
Speaker 1: I mean I kind of ripped off some girl from
Speaker 1: who I'd seen done it the year before. But I
Speaker 1: did this thing that was like testing senses, and it
Speaker 1: was like to see which of your senses was the
Speaker 1: was powerful. I called it common sense. And I did
Speaker 1: like this whole experiment where my parents were friends with
Speaker 1: this guy who worked at Marty's Liquors in Newton, and
Speaker 1: so I set up a table outside the liquor store
Speaker 1: and I would blindfold like random pedestrians what with my
Speaker 1: mother's velvet scarf. I remember that velvet scarff and I
Speaker 1: would like, feed them a pair while holding an apple
Speaker 1: under their nose, and nine times out of ten the
Speaker 1: person would think they were eating an apple.
Speaker 2: Sorry, this is the craziest thing in the entire world.
Speaker 2: You're outside a liquor store Newton, blindfolding people with a
Speaker 2: velvet scarf. It's like, okay, can play.
Speaker 1: It was actually really kinky and.
Speaker 2: You're feeding them fruit.
Speaker 1: What is that? And I learned. I learned that smell
Speaker 1: is a very powerful set, more so than taste.
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, that's what they always say.
Speaker 1: And they are right.
Speaker 2: We have to go to segments and we haven't even
Speaker 2: talked about well, I mean, it's not featured in the
Speaker 2: book that Waws and Kathy Griffin dated, which is how
Speaker 2: I kind of had heard of.
Speaker 1: Was I'm saying because we watched him on Life on
Speaker 1: the d List and he's just always riding his segue
Speaker 1: and she'd be like, there Isa was with his segue
Speaker 1: and they actually.
Speaker 2: Only did for a year, but there's such a cute
Speaker 2: couple and she's always just being so like, here's my
Speaker 2: billionaire boyfriend. In the episode I watched that she takes
Speaker 2: him to a bear convention and like takes him to
Speaker 2: the bear mall and is like showing him so many floggers.
Speaker 1: I know it didn't work out, but.
Speaker 2: Then they broke up and she said they actually never
Speaker 2: slept together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna be my guess because I just
Speaker 1: feel like he actually is not verosexual and he's ace.
Speaker 2: Well, he got married right after they broke up, to
Speaker 2: some woman that he's.
Speaker 1: Still married to, and you think they're fucking.
Speaker 2: I think he does fuck. I think in a weird way.
Speaker 2: Sure she has tons of.
Speaker 1: Sexual hang ups own like so many like weird fetishes.
Speaker 1: I honestly think that like you rub up against wahs
Speaker 1: and he premature ejaculates and it's over.
Speaker 2: Or he's like maybe he's watching, or it's more of
Speaker 2: just kind of a petting scenario.
Speaker 1: I just don't think that he is rogering anyone. I
Speaker 1: don't think he's giving anyone the business.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think like was is giving like Janet
Speaker 2: his fourth wife the business, or he gave Alice his
Speaker 2: first wife the business.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he's sweet and he has a good I.
Speaker 2: Think he's very sweet. I mean, he has three kids,
Speaker 2: so he's made love three times. We know that. Okay,
Speaker 2: just before we wrap this up, of just This is
Speaker 2: this crazy Steve Job story where Steve Jobs is mad
Speaker 2: that WA was is using this design company, the same
Speaker 2: design company that Apple uses to create his remote. Turned
Speaker 2: out Steve Jobs is over at Frog for some reason
Speaker 2: and saw a CL nine prototype. From what I heard,
Speaker 2: he threw it against a wall and put it in
Speaker 2: a box and said send it to him, as if
Speaker 2: Apple owned it. The Frog guy told me that Steve
Speaker 2: Jobs told him they couldn't do any work for us
Speaker 2: because Apple owned Frog. Not true, I never knew it,
Speaker 2: but Frog told us they felt uncomfortable doing without Apple's permission.
Speaker 2: Apple was a big customer, so then we're going to
Speaker 2: do it.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: I wasn't gonna argue. I don't truly know what the
Speaker 2: real story was, but I thought, good, fine, we'll go
Speaker 2: somewhere else and we did.
Speaker 1: Well that's that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you to be completely like so like dramatic
Speaker 2: movie and like throwing a remote and send it the
Speaker 2: fuck back to him, that short fat loser and was
Speaker 2: is like, hmm, well you actually don't own Frog the
Speaker 2: design company. More on.
Speaker 1: I mean, the fact that Steve Jobs was threatened by
Speaker 1: Universal Remode is also a little insane. It's like Jobs.
Speaker 2: Simmer, you're about to make the iPods. What does she wear?
Speaker 1: What does she eat? How does she live? How does
Speaker 1: she live? Do you think he still lives in a
Speaker 1: gorgeous like mid century Eicler home or well?
Speaker 2: He describes his favorite home as his first house, which
Speaker 2: sounded a little more like rustic California.
Speaker 1: With the naughty wood, the naughty pine.
Speaker 2: But it also has like a mural of dogs. So
Speaker 2: I think his home is more like beautiful yeat imported
Speaker 2: naughty pine and it's like gorgeous woods.
Speaker 1: I think that's not true. I think he was reminiscing
Speaker 1: about the beauty of that home because the current one
Speaker 1: is just a boring McMansion and he lives in just
Speaker 1: Sunny Vale or Menma Park or where he just lives
Speaker 1: in Silicon Valley in a boring Berry Luckerberg like five
Speaker 1: bedroom new McMansion.
Speaker 2: I guess right, he's wishing for his knotty yes, because
Speaker 2: like that's how they make housles now, and like yes,
Speaker 2: there's indoor outdoor like sliding doors that lead up to
Speaker 2: the pool in the grill, but it still looked pretty new.
Speaker 2: I think his bed is like a huge four poster
Speaker 2: like cedar bed.
Speaker 1: Hmmm, that's interesting.
Speaker 2: Like I think he's folding onto he I think he's
Speaker 2: holding onto wood in some way. Also, he is someone
Speaker 2: who loves technology, so I think there are like so
Speaker 2: many silly things where it's like this side of the
Speaker 2: wall actually is a cooling wall.
Speaker 1: Yes, but I do think it's a kind of in
Speaker 1: this early two thousands way. Like the kitchen like has
Speaker 1: like one of those hoods that's like the curved glass
Speaker 1: hood m. There's a lot of like maroon like kitchen
Speaker 1: cabinetry and like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I don't think he has that fridge with
Speaker 2: the TV that like can charge your phone in it.
Speaker 1: No, but he has a fridge that like has that
Speaker 1: actual voice. Yes, it has like a voice. I think
Speaker 1: it is ice activated fridge, Hello Steve. Yeah, it's more
Speaker 1: the dream of what technology is. And he's like programming
Speaker 1: his garage door opener to like play like Kukaracha, like
Speaker 1: be silly.
Speaker 2: Definitely, which was my dream always as child, was like
Speaker 2: I'm gonna have an apartment and when I walk in
Speaker 2: the door, there's gonna be a censor that plays Sinatra.
Speaker 1: O babe, we can do that?
Speaker 2: Which happened for you to do that?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: What does he eat? I mean he like literally I
Speaker 2: think he just like loves like pizza. He's so like
Speaker 2: nineteen seventies, like in this like Toastino's pizza rolls.
Speaker 1: Because it's like, oh, late night program, I mean like
Speaker 1: we have to eat pizza.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, although don't you think his third wife is being
Speaker 1: more like I'm worried about cholesterol role, Yes, I mean
Speaker 1: I'm worried about this cholesterol.
Speaker 2: Right, it's salmon and salads. And then he's like sneaking
Speaker 2: a pizza, being like I was bad today.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're also having just like a huge kind
Speaker 1: of like because he's so like warm Buffett and like
Speaker 1: I only have moneyn things that I need, Like he
Speaker 1: is Costco membership and they are massive like tub of
Speaker 1: like off brand cheese doodles that he's like dipping into, oh.
Speaker 2: In the pantry, and his hands are so orange.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, he's been caught orange handed.
Speaker 2: And then like he's randomly thinking some snack is so
Speaker 2: cool because it's modern like a keen watchip and he's
Speaker 2: like spends a week eating it, being like have you
Speaker 2: seen these things they're made? Get this out of pasta?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Okay, what does he wear like golf polos big pants.
Speaker 2: In his bear trip doctors, he looked a little less
Speaker 2: sloppy than I had remembered. He was in like a
Speaker 2: sweater polo and just like big doctors. Yea, and then
Speaker 2: he was wearing a huge straight to Hell Kathy Griffin
Speaker 2: tor T shirt.
Speaker 1: So cute.
Speaker 2: Okay, who are you in the book?
Speaker 1: Do you think I'm Steve Jobs? Because I'm brandy genius.
Speaker 2: I kind of thing like I'm was your Jobs.
Speaker 1: And you're tinkering away, But like I'm.
Speaker 2: Not obviously like Steve was, because I like literally like
Speaker 2: I know it ram.
Speaker 1: Is, but like coming back to this original sin thing though,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like you are like so social and
Speaker 1: you're not like playing pranks on people as a way
Speaker 1: to like interact with them because you don't know how
Speaker 1: to interact with them.
Speaker 2: No, Ultimately, I think like I am someone he's hiring
Speaker 2: to like help with one of his rock festivals.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're Emilu Harris.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm just like sure I'll play your wedding. Wait,
Speaker 2: actually that is me. I guess I was like wads
Speaker 2: because I'm just like silly, but I don't have the
Speaker 2: tech expertise to like make a dial a joke like
Speaker 2: phone line.
Speaker 1: But I'm not jobs because I wouldn't lie to my
Speaker 1: best friend about money.
Speaker 2: You're not that evil, Like yeah, like you would come
Speaker 2: home from a sex orchard and be like, Lily, I
Speaker 2: haven't get this. It's so simple. It's just Apple, and.
Speaker 1: I'd be like, wait, I mean like that's it, we're
Speaker 1: going with that. Sorry, that's that done.
Speaker 2: Like sorry, But like I don't think you're also like
Speaker 2: lying about the three thousand.
Speaker 1: So maybe I'm more like van Halen's wife.
Speaker 2: Yeah, who's like Heather Lockler. Yeah, yeah, because it's like
Speaker 2: are you throwing a calculator being like send it back
Speaker 2: to him?
Speaker 1: Like kind of but just for the drama, I really
Speaker 1: hope I'm not the guy who sold his Apple stock
Speaker 1: fore hundred dollars.
Speaker 2: No, you're not that.
Speaker 1: No, I'm holding.
Speaker 2: You're absolutely holding anyway.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I give this book like I don't
Speaker 1: know two out of five motherboards, Like it's really upbeat
Speaker 1: in a way that's almost like shocking. I'm sure there
Speaker 1: like is some Mad for TV movie about the founding
Speaker 1: of Apple that's so like the social network.
Speaker 2: I was gonna watch it the night did there's the
Speaker 2: Ashton Kutcher movie.
Speaker 1: About Steve Jobs. Yeah, it's like, I'm sure if you
Speaker 1: were writing that movie and you're sharking or whatever, like,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you would find it really difficult to be
Speaker 1: inspired by this book.
Speaker 2: I give it two point nine pongs out of pong.
Speaker 2: What I liked about this book is it, like is
Speaker 2: very different from stuff we've read in the way that
Speaker 2: it's like literally about like a nerdy guy, like talking
Speaker 2: about Ram and being a phone freak and like starting
Speaker 2: phone lines, which it doesn't follow kind of the norms
Speaker 2: of that, Like, it's much more in this nerdy guy's brain.
Speaker 2: Was I skimming the parts about Ram, Yes, But that's
Speaker 2: also why I like the book, because it literally is
Speaker 2: just a memoir about Ram and like making remotes.
Speaker 1: And I thought there were some nice descriptions, like you know,
Speaker 1: about how computers work and binary code and how it's
Speaker 1: a series of switches and everything. You know, there is
Speaker 1: some beauty to the way he's fucking freaks minds works.
Speaker 2: We're fucking nerds, like we're also known of those books. Sorry, dudes,
Speaker 2: we're not fucking nerds like ham Radio. Sorry take me
Speaker 2: to the Mall and it's like he's so nerdy in
Speaker 2: the way that it's like there is just these little
Speaker 2: bits of tea about like his drama with Steve Jobs.
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, he is just
Speaker 2: like the Segue billionaire who's so random and positive.
Speaker 1: If there's one lesson in this book, it made me think, like,
Speaker 1: you know, the joy he has towards the iPod and
Speaker 1: like towards yoursual computer, I'm like, I did have that
Speaker 1: joy about technology when we were younger, and yeah, and
Speaker 1: like when our family first got a G four, I
Speaker 1: thought it was so fine. It was like so cool
Speaker 1: and exciting, and like, I don't know, I feel like
Speaker 1: I so rarely have those moments because it's so embedded
Speaker 1: in our lives, but like every now and then, like
Speaker 1: I just downloaded some new software for able to the
Speaker 1: other day, this cool new plug in, and I've been
Speaker 1: enjoying using it and all the sounds on it, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, if we can just find a
Speaker 1: way to recapture the joy of tech in your life,
Speaker 1: And it may be obviously about having, you know, using
Speaker 1: it less, I.
Speaker 2: Think having it less and then finding specific things.
Speaker 1: But appreciating it more and be like, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: it is incredible that I can talk to my friend
Speaker 1: in France on this device that I keep in my pocket,
Speaker 1: you know, like reserve some joy for that, but like
Speaker 1: put it away it gets to be too much.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think I've ever been rocked as much
Speaker 2: as I was when I got my first iod.
Speaker 1: That was insane, being on the fucking tea in.
Speaker 2: Boston, literally being on.
Speaker 1: Michelle Branch in my headphones.
Speaker 2: Crazy swirling around, going with that to Michelle Brand Yeah,
Speaker 2: wild times. Yeah, wow, now chic, it was the white
Speaker 2: It's beautiful.
Speaker 1: All right. You guys, find your joy.
Speaker 2: Find your joy in tech and like be happy in Tinker,
Speaker 2: whatever you tinker with Tinker.
Speaker 1: Best best our producer on this show is the very
Speaker 1: talented hand and beautiful excuse me, Darby Masters, whose serial
Speaker 1: number is F nine six G four l x W nine.
Speaker 2: This episode of Celebrity book Club Program with Stephen and
Speaker 2: Lily was made with eight hundred megabytes of RAM that
Speaker 2: Christina Everett found, who was the executive producer. Our supervising producer,
Speaker 2: Abu Zafar I met in a Hammer radio class. Well
Speaker 2: we just got along really well. We didn't hang out
Speaker 2: much outside in our freedom time, but we got along
Speaker 2: very well in class.
Speaker 1: Our engineer who does work with a X eighty six
Speaker 1: based operating system is Beheed Fraser. He is very, very talented.
Speaker 1: Please hire him. We're all of your bits and bobs.
Speaker 2: Our musician who made our theme song performed at my
Speaker 2: cool music procival that I imitated from Woodstock. His name is
Speaker 2: Stephen Philpschorst.
Speaker 1: We originally created this podcast on a NCR Doss Software
Speaker 1: Bus three point zero DCP seventeen hundred computer, which of
Speaker 1: course they do not make anymore. That was recorded at
Speaker 1: Prologue Projects and we wish them well
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I wish you all the RAM in the world.