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Speaker 1: Well, joining me now is my friend Frank Lavin. He

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Speaker 1: has written a terrific book. I guess you could call

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Speaker 1: it a personal memoir, but it's sort of about his

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Speaker 1: professional life working in the Reagan White House. I've even

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Speaker 1: got it here. It's called Inside the Reagan White House

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Speaker 1: by Frank Lavin. And a word of warning, Frank, it

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Speaker 1: loves a good dad pun like I do. So for

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Speaker 1: anybody under the age of forty listening right now, be

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Speaker 1: prepared for some terrible, corny jokes for both of us,

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Speaker 1: because when the two of us get together, we can

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Speaker 1: feed off of that. But Frank, it's good to see.

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Speaker 2: You, Chack.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot of fun. Always great to chat with you.

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Speaker 2: I always learned something. And thanks for talking about the

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Speaker 2: book about half memoirs, about half sort of political science.

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Speaker 2: How does presidential power work? How does presidential speech to

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Speaker 2: me work? So half of the sort of White House operations,

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Speaker 2: half of it's my personal journey.

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Speaker 1: Which terrific forward by a historian who noted that the

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Speaker 1: memoirs are sometimes the worst place to find out what

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Speaker 1: happened in an administration, because I think he quotes Kissinger

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Speaker 1: what he says that. You know, everybody, when they remember

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Speaker 1: a conversation, they always remember the great line they said.

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Speaker 1: They never seem to remember the great line somebody else

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Speaker 1: said on that. From no question, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: subjects to here.

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Speaker 2: Well, I would tell anybody read more than one biography,

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Speaker 2: read more than one history. Don't just read one and

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Speaker 2: think I've got it, because there's a slightly different perspectives,

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Speaker 2: slightly a bit of a kaleidoscope in there. So you're

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Speaker 2: absolutely right.

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Speaker 1: Well, I have found myself. Actually, you know, I remember

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Speaker 1: this is diverging a little bit. I've read probably four

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Speaker 1: different books on the eighteen seventy six election, the great

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Speaker 1: disputed election of the nineteenth century, and I've come to

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Speaker 1: the conclusion that it's the it's the politics of the

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Speaker 1: author that shapes the analysis of that election. And I've read,

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Speaker 1: like I said, four different ones where facts all seemed

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Speaker 1: to be the same, but the takeaway has all been

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Speaker 1: more about the author than about the times.

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Speaker 2: And back to modern era too, without a doubt, that

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Speaker 2: is the single most common bias that if you didn't

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Speaker 2: really like John F. Kennedy, then your biography John F.

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Speaker 2: Kennedy's gonna be pretty harsh. But if you thought this

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Speaker 2: guy was actually pretty impressive, then you're going to be

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Speaker 2: more disposed to applaud the guy. So this is there's

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Speaker 2: always subjectivity in this, MiGs.

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Speaker 1: But look, we're talking here on we're taping this and

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Speaker 1: on a time stamp it for folks so they knows.

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Speaker 1: September eleventh, Thursday, and it's twenty four hours after the

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Speaker 1: assassination of political activist Charlie Kirk. And you know, Frank,

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Speaker 1: your coming of age was as it was as A

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Speaker 1: was with the turning point of the seventies, young Americans

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Speaker 1: for Freedom, and I meaning that this was the this

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Speaker 1: is the heart of the Reagan movement. The College Republicans

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Speaker 1: weren't cutting it in some ways, right, young Americans for Freedom.

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Speaker 2: I was with both. I was with both. I enjoyed

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Speaker 2: College Republicans.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just more movement, more movement, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think that's the same thing today. Turning point

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Speaker 1: is the movement College Republicans a little bit more traditional,

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Speaker 1: and you still sort of see that split. It's just

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Speaker 1: that the the offfers aren't aren't as prominent as they

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Speaker 1: used to be. I think they changed their name receiving

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Speaker 1: Maybe if I'm not mistaken. But and it it's not

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Speaker 1: lost on me that you start your book talking about

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Speaker 1: January sixth and saying that it was a motivator for

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Speaker 1: you to write about the Reagan era. Where are we

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Speaker 1: as a country and how would Reagan be handling this moment?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think there's been a lot of decay. I

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Speaker 2: think there's been a great deal of deterioration in our

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Speaker 2: political ciment, both in our discourse. That whole Overton window

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Speaker 2: it shifted where now it's commonplace for national leaders to

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Speaker 2: use really kind of insulting language or even swear words.

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Speaker 2: Reagan would never do that. Reagan always tried to have

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Speaker 2: an elevated discourse, even if he was unhappy about something.

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Speaker 2: There's a way to make a point and start with substance,

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Speaker 2: start with a particular point you're trying to make it,

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Speaker 2: and you could use humor and other elements to it.

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Speaker 2: But Reagan kept a million miles away from denigrating anybody.

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Speaker 2: Even a long time Tip O'Neil, somebod who is a

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Speaker 2: long time political adversary might tell a joke about Tip

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Speaker 2: O'Neil or Ted Kennedy, but he would not ever suit

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Speaker 2: insulting those people. So it's been a bit of deterioration

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Speaker 2: in the last few years.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's it's you know, it's like we've forgotten

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Speaker 1: how to debate. You know, everything is existential. I really

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Speaker 1: do put the blame on our information ecosystem that we've

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Speaker 1: created an incentive structure that only I mean, I look

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Speaker 1: at one of the prime examples. You know, my favorite

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Speaker 1: new expression and it comes from Scotland, Sacombe's who's a

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Speaker 1: news let a writer at the Dispatch is nut picking? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all right, you know where I'm going with this nut picking,

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Speaker 1: which is.

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Speaker 2: You take a ragous thing on the other side, right and.

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Speaker 1: You say, look, this is what they're saying, right, And

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Speaker 1: it is really sort of how many of the biggest

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Speaker 1: sort of left leaning and right leaning influencers, this is

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Speaker 1: how they make their money.

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Speaker 2: Right. Social media rewards audacity of rewards outrageous statements, awards

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Speaker 2: in theatrics, and rewards inflammatory statements. So it does and

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Speaker 2: it punishes the serious, substantive conversation. I mean, Mitt Romney

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Speaker 2: would have a lot of trouble getting a hearing or

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Speaker 2: Al Gore or Bill Bradley if you said, here's some

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Speaker 2: ideas on how to reduce the deficit. Boy, nobody's clicking

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Speaker 2: on that. But if you say, not picking, here's the

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Speaker 2: most outrageous thing that somebody other side said and we

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Speaker 2: all need to be emotionally outraged by it, then that's

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Speaker 2: going to get some following.

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Speaker 1: And so it's this is one of those moments where

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Speaker 1: I fear this is you know, there's the expression things

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Speaker 1: are going to have to get worse before they get better,

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Speaker 1: and I fear things are going to get worse before

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Speaker 1: they get worse.

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Speaker 2: It's always darkest before it's pitch black, right, the Great

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Speaker 2: James John McCain's statement, Yeah, I don't we've hit bottom yet.

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Speaker 2: I don't think we've hit bottom yet. But I do

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Speaker 2: have ultimate faith American people, and I do think what

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Speaker 2: happens is a fatigue sets in of saying okay, after

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Speaker 2: your emotional stent and you've radiated all of your hatreds

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Speaker 2: and you know, but by the way, is there any

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Speaker 2: idea about how to solve the deficit, or any idea

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Speaker 2: about how to use tech to improve public school education,

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Speaker 2: or any ideas at all that would make America a

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Speaker 2: better place? But let's hear them. Let's have an avenue

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Speaker 2: for airing some of these cool ideas.

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Speaker 1: So let's go back to your time in polic What

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Speaker 1: I love about your book, and it's I'm sort of

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Speaker 1: is the fact that you know, I feel like we've

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Speaker 1: been been growing a friendship over the years, but after

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Speaker 1: reading the book, it's like, I really know you now,

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Speaker 1: and now I'm sort of like you don't know me

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Speaker 1: as well as now that I know you, like you

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Speaker 1: get your book exactly. You shared a lot. I'm curious

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Speaker 1: how did your family react. They did they see or

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Speaker 1: hear things that they didn't hadn't heard her from you before?

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Speaker 1: Or were these all old stories?

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Speaker 2: There were there were some polite groans, and I think

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Speaker 2: it was more along the lines of we all sort

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Speaker 2: of know this is true, or we've heard elements of

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Speaker 2: this before, but would you really have to publicize this

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Speaker 2: as this reason is too revealing or too much information.

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Speaker 2: And of course that's a generational concept meeting For younger people,

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Speaker 2: you can talk about anything, anything. There's no sense of

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Speaker 2: inhibition for our generation. There's a little bit of sense

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Speaker 2: of privacy or the bubble or something. And look, I

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Speaker 2: understand that, and I'm not by nature an exhibitionist or

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Speaker 2: overshare it. But unless you give people a little bit

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Speaker 2: of sense of what motivates you personally and how I

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Speaker 2: fell in love in college and I married my wife,

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Speaker 2: And unless you tell people a little bit of your journey,

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Speaker 2: it's harder for them to relate to what you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Then you are, forgive me, you are sort of being

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Speaker 2: a Mitt Romney or Al Gore and you're just saying,

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Speaker 2: let me tell you about the plan to balance the budget.

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Speaker 2: Then nobody wants to read that.

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Speaker 1: No, it's funny you bring up Romney and Gore like that.

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Speaker 1: I'd probably throw Bob Dole in there, where they all

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Speaker 1: became more interesting after their camps. They all let their guard.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's like once we once they became human

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Speaker 1: beings after they lost.

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Speaker 2: I think you're right. Everything is sort of a job

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Speaker 2: interview during the campaign, you know, make sure you've got

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Speaker 2: the clean shirt and ky and formal answers, and it is.

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Speaker 2: It is like a job interview. But afterwards you could say,

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Speaker 2: you know, I never really cared for that one individual,

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Speaker 2: or that guy always drove me down to that guy

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Speaker 2: never did the job he's supposed to do, And you

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Speaker 2: can kind of share some of your and I I

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Speaker 2: try to give some of that. I try to say

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Speaker 2: I do have personal impressions some of these guys. But

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Speaker 2: but you know, the wrong way to do it is

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Speaker 2: grinding an axe, of saying I'm here to settle scores,

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Speaker 2: I'm here to take shots of people. I'm here, I said,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to do that. I'm only I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to mention anybody by name who I'm saying I

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Speaker 2: had a problem with and and and I'm just doing

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Speaker 2: to illustrate color into illustrated controversy differences. So I'm not

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Speaker 2: trying to pay back or punch somebody in the nose.

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Speaker 1: Let me let me give you what I what I

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Speaker 1: think is my most challenging political question for you, which

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Speaker 1: is what would the Reagan years have been like? Had

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Speaker 1: he had full Republican control of Congress.

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Speaker 2: I think you would have been more aggressive and more successful.

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Speaker 2: Aggressive In terms of his policy program, I think you

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Speaker 2: would have been a little more successful. For example, I

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Speaker 2: think the greatest point of policy frustration was more serious

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Speaker 2: effort on the budget. And that is a tough tough

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Speaker 2: sell because you're taking something away from somebody, You're depriving somebody.

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Speaker 2: If some revenue program grant god knows what and then

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Speaker 2: so it's immediate pain, short term pain, and it's the

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Speaker 2: benefits are only long term systemic. The benefits are saying

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Speaker 2: we're moving to a balanced budget, interest rates are dropping,

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Speaker 2: the whole society is better off. But boy, that is

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Speaker 2: a tough sell. So you need to you really need

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Speaker 2: to have congressional support and get it through at front

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Speaker 2: end so that within two or three years people are saying,

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Speaker 2: you know, Reagan was right, we do have a better

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Speaker 2: economy now because we made some tough calls of years ago.

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Speaker 2: We never really got there on the budget issues.

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Speaker 1: I say that because I you know, one of the things,

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Speaker 1: and I guess it goes. And it's a question I've

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Speaker 1: been thinking about making more of a constant question I

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Speaker 1: ask of any elected official, which is, if you win

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Speaker 1: an election fifty one to forty nine, what is your

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Speaker 1: responsibility of governing for the forty nine?

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Speaker 2: You know what I would say. I would say, you

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Speaker 2: go as fast as you can on your agenda. If

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Speaker 2: you believe in your agenda, you believe in your policies,

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Speaker 2: this is you. The door is open. You won this thing.

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Speaker 2: It's not a coalition government. There's no legal or moral

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Speaker 2: obligation to say, well, George McGovern is actually forty two

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Speaker 2: percent correct, we better listen to them.

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Speaker 1: You won the darn thing, and you take it where

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Speaker 1: you want to go.

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Speaker 2: Then theoretically you're only following these policies that help the country.

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Speaker 2: So theoretically you've got an opening of twelve twenty four months,

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Speaker 2: and at the end of those week once you say, see,

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Speaker 2: I got through this, I got my program in, we're

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Speaker 2: all now better off. So I would advise a president

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Speaker 2: to move if you win the election, you move along

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Speaker 2: your policy agenda.

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Speaker 1: Well, I hear you there. And yet I feel like

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Speaker 1: we've gotten further away from governing for everybody and that

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Speaker 1: we now only govern for our supporters. And that's what

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Speaker 1: I'm that's serd And I don't like there's a five

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Speaker 1: line you know that I'm maybe I'm trying to draw

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Speaker 1: here and so, yes, I agree in the backrop, but

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Speaker 1: take what RFK is doing with vaccines. A majority didn't

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Speaker 1: vote for that, sure, and so and I think they're

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Speaker 1: making a huge political mistake by essentially, you know, allowing

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Speaker 1: it to be seen as part of the agenda. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just think that it's potentially political problem So my

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Speaker 1: point being is that you know, I believe the last

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Speaker 1: group of voters that decided this election weren't necessarily voting for.

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Speaker 1: They were voting against. And to me, if you're governing,

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Speaker 1: do you think about that or not? And if you don't,

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Speaker 1: is that a mistake?

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Speaker 2: Well, look, this is a great topic, get it. I

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Speaker 2: would just say directly, Bobby Kennedy is not qualified to

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Speaker 2: be secretary and he shouldn't be in that position, and

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Speaker 2: his weird attitude towards science just sort of eliminates him

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Speaker 2: from serious considerations. But so I would say that is

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Speaker 2: a very different case than your general question about listen

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Speaker 2: to minorities or something.

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Speaker 1: And I may have taken the most extreme example, but

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Speaker 1: it is in order to pay in order to at

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Speaker 1: least get people to understand the picture I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: draw here.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, but I think in general, in general, political

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Speaker 2: leadership moves as aggressively as they can toward their policy

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Speaker 2: agenda within the political constraints that have So Ronald Reagan

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Speaker 2: needed to get a third of the Democrats to support

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Speaker 2: his initiatives, so he had to talk to them and

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Speaker 2: had to listen to him, and he had to trim

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Speaker 2: of his tax cut ideas, and he got some support

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Speaker 2: of Nicaragua, but he was eventually limited by Boland the

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Speaker 2: Boling Amendment. So the point is he had good news

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Speaker 2: and bad news, good days and bad days. But he

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Speaker 2: worked very hard across those eight years to say I

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Speaker 2: need as much support as I can for my program.

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Speaker 2: But meaning his constraints were the formal political constraints, not

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Speaker 2: not a thought of saying, well, some people disagree with me,

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Speaker 2: and some people think that, But I don't blame anybody

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Speaker 2: in public life for pursuing their agenda. He ran on

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Speaker 2: a program and he won, and he should pursue his program.

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Speaker 1: But I think about how Clinton and Reagan are portrayed

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Speaker 1: now in history, not in the moment that they both governed. Right,

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Speaker 1: There was certainly that antagonism for both of them, and

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Speaker 1: they both ended up. Their legacies have benefited from the

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Speaker 1: fact that the other party had some power, Yes, and

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Speaker 1: I forced them to be a different kind of leader.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what kind of leader Clinton is, if

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Speaker 1: he's all, if he's partisan for seven years, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what kind of leader if Reagan is, if he's

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, right? You see your point

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Speaker 1: now is accurate, but it's a very different point.

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Speaker 2: I agree, but I think it's going if you didn't

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Speaker 2: have power, should you listen to the other guys? Yes,

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Speaker 2: I don't think so. And now you're saying, if you

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Speaker 2: do have power, you got all so Clinton and Reagan.

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Speaker 2: You're absolutely right. Both had to trim their sales or

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Speaker 2: adjust or accommodate some people on the other side, and

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Speaker 2: it gave them some flexibility, and it might have actually

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Speaker 2: helped them through the course of that. It allowed Clinton,

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Speaker 2: for example, to always contend he was the good guy,

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Speaker 2: so to speak, and Gingrich is the villain of this story,

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Speaker 2: even if it's a common.

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Speaker 1: I get pulled off the same thing. Arguably. Yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: absolutely so.

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Speaker 2: And you're right. If Trump was reduced to sort of

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Speaker 2: more of a rhetorical presidency where he was just angry

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Speaker 2: and happy about something, but there weren't changes in vaccine

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Speaker 2: policy or something, you know, he might be more successful

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Speaker 2: because I think people like the extent Trump is popular.

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Speaker 2: I think people like the idea of Donald Trump much

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Speaker 2: more than actually like Donald Trump as president. But they'd

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Speaker 2: like the idea of a contrarian or somebody shaking up

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Speaker 2: the system, or somebody's kicking over established norms. It's always

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Speaker 2: kind of appealing, but then when he actually does it,

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Speaker 2: you might end up worse than where you were before

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Speaker 2: you started.

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Speaker 1: No, I look at it and it's like, why, why

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Speaker 1: were there better memories of Trump one point oh to

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Speaker 1: some voters?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: And I do think some voters are like, well, I

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Speaker 1: thought I was voting for Trump one point oh, not

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Speaker 1: this new thing right type of type of mindset. And

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Speaker 1: I think it's because we had there were some And

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Speaker 1: I guess the question is, and we're sort of dancing

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Speaker 1: around it, which is most politicians only deal with the

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Speaker 1: other side if they have to, not if they want.

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Speaker 2: I think that's the truth of life. By the way,

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Speaker 2: I can't blame them. They did win the election. He's

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Speaker 2: got an open door to do what he wants to do.

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Speaker 2: And I'll sell you this. You can be happy about

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump. You can be unhappy Donald Trump. You really

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Speaker 2: can't be surprised when he says I'm going to shut

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Speaker 2: down the border. He shut down the border. What he said,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to see men competing in women's sports.

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Speaker 2: He doesn't want to see men competing, So you can't

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Speaker 2: be I'm surprised by any of this. He is a

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Speaker 2: pretty consistent guy.

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Speaker 1: Since we're in the sort of that period of the

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Speaker 1: Republican Party. Earlier this week was the fifty first anniversary

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Speaker 1: of Ford's decision to pardon Nixon. Yeah, and I think

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Speaker 1: it is is not aged. I personally believe it is

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Speaker 1: not aged. Well that it We know that, all of it,

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Speaker 1: And for forty years, the conventional wisdom has been, you know,

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Speaker 1: he put the country first. But I could argue he

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Speaker 1: actually put his own presidency first, right, because a Nixon

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Speaker 1: trial might have been consuming of his presidency. So let

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Speaker 1: me ask you this odd question in that if Ford

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Speaker 1: doesn't pardon Nixon, does Reagan win the primary? Oh? In

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Speaker 1: uh No, I don't think so.

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Speaker 2: I think, by the way, all of the comments you

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Speaker 2: were making about politics day, that deterioration and that polarization

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Speaker 2: and the rank corps, I think we would have seen

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Speaker 2: that in the Nixon trial. I think half the country

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Speaker 2: would have said, look, the guy resigned, the guy is

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Speaker 2: destroyed politically, let it go. Let it go. But but

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Speaker 2: there's a highly animated, energized, sort of ideological group of

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Speaker 2: saying I hate Nixon.

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Speaker 1: I just hate Nixon, and I live to hate Nixon,

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Speaker 1: and I love hating Nixon.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to keep hating Nixon. So you would have

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Speaker 2: fed that flame for years, and I think we would

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Speaker 2: have just seen a deterioration in the ranker. I By

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Speaker 2: the way, it's all conjecture, but I think Ford is

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Speaker 2: best to say, look, this guy's been destroyed, he's been

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Speaker 2: kicked out of office. History is going to be brutal

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Speaker 2: to him, and lets you move on. Let's move on

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Speaker 2: as a country.

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Speaker 1: So but do you also believe that probably doomed his

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Speaker 1: ability to win his own term?

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Speaker 2: Maybe? Maybe it's certainly he certainly fell apart after that.

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Speaker 2: He did climb out of that hole and he was

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Speaker 2: closing on Carter as we know as that last debate

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Speaker 2: with his comments on pole and inexplicable comments. But it

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Speaker 2: was basically a tide campaign.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, my friend Doug Bailey, my Fred Doug Bailey contendency.

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Speaker 1: He still blames Gallup. He blame not still he's been

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Speaker 1: no longer with us. But he blamed three entities for

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Speaker 1: the one point loss. One was the Gallop poll on

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Speaker 1: the Saturday before the election that showed Ford ahead. Because

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Speaker 1: the minute the country saw that, wait a minute for

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Speaker 1: it's gonna win. No, no, no, no, we didn't want that. The

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Speaker 1: second that if Ford had been one point behind and

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Speaker 1: an election day. The second was the Dole gaff uh

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Speaker 1: if Democrat war wars. And then the third was the

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Speaker 1: was the Nixon part when you lose by a percentage point?

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Speaker 1: You know, right, it could be anything, but those are

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Speaker 1: the three he always identified.

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Speaker 2: I got to say, even though I think we're both

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Speaker 2: probably the same view of Jimmy Carter's limitations and sort

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Speaker 2: of shortcomings president as a candidate, as a persona, he

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Speaker 2: was fabulous.

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Speaker 1: He was what he meant the moment he was meeting,

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Speaker 1: the moment that people wanted, that we want to cleanse

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Speaker 1: the country.

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Speaker 2: Right, Absolutely no DC connection at all. Sunday School teacher

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Speaker 2: Annapolis grad to say, he looks like the most pristine

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Speaker 2: fellow we could find, and he's completely unobjectionable as persona.

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Speaker 2: So let's just get in some guy from the outside

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Speaker 2: and cut completely this whole Nixon Ford mess we've got

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Speaker 2: and get the most different person we could find.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of where my head is at in twenty eight,

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Speaker 1: like I do, like I'm wondering if that is the

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Speaker 1: you know, as all as a Gavin Newsom thinks, you know,

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Speaker 1: going hard on this is the way to go, or

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Speaker 1: or a JB. Pritzker. You know, I look at the

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Speaker 1: James Tallerco's of the world and knowing, you know, and

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Speaker 1: he maybe got the better message here and he doesn't

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Speaker 1: have a DC stain on him.

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Speaker 2: Well, one of the lessons to me is both parties

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Speaker 2: have huge problem and somewhat parallel problem, and that their

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Speaker 2: traditional pill or the traditional rationale of support has significantly faded.

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Speaker 2: Meaning for the Democrats, that old economic justice or misery

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Speaker 2: to say, look that that just doesn't motivate people in

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Speaker 2: a middle class country the way it might have fifty

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Speaker 2: years ago. So to simply say I'm Bernie Sanders and

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Speaker 2: I hate rich people more than you hate rich people

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Speaker 2: doesn't get you fifty percent of the vote. There's got

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Speaker 2: to be some I mean, the left will always have

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Speaker 2: an element of economic orientation to that message, but that

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Speaker 2: doesn't get you above the Democratic base nowadays. So what

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Speaker 2: else can you say running on the left that will

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Speaker 2: allow middle America to say, this guy, he's another Jimmy Carter,

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Speaker 2: another Bill Clinton. Let's give this fellow a chance.

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Speaker 1: And what's the pillar on there? You were saying both parties, Well, the.

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Speaker 2: Right, actually you made this point of Bearier on the

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Speaker 2: right is international. It's the Cold War international leadership. To

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Speaker 2: say the Republican Party was always the party of stability

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Speaker 2: and sound international security, and to say, okay, but there's

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Speaker 2: no immediate threat, there's no Soviet Union, there's no immediate problem.

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Speaker 2: We just don't need to play that international role we've

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Speaker 2: historically played.

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Speaker 1: There's a reason results matter more than promises, just like

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Speaker 1: Morgan and Morgan fought back ended up winning millions. In fact,

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436
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,480
Speaker 1: law on your cell phone. And remember all law firms

437
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:19,359
Speaker 1: are not the same. So check out Morgan and Morgan.

438
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 1: Their fee is free unless they win. So what would

439
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 1: Reagan be doing right now with Putin and Ukraine.

440
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 2: I think you definitely would be pushing back. I think

441
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,639
Speaker 2: you would definitely be I mean all during Cold War architecture,

442
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,640
Speaker 2: for a decade after the Cold War, simply having territorial

443
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 2: aggression in itself was viewed as a warning sign, not

444
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,479
Speaker 2: that we had to get involved militarily or support, but

445
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 2: to say, if if you don't attach a cost to

446
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 2: Putent's aggression, you are inviting more aggression. So you better

447
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,399
Speaker 2: make sure that the cost exceed the benefit. And by

448
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 2: the way, the huge beneficiary of that would be US

449
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 2: and China. To say, if you want to deflect China

450
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,159
Speaker 2: from any ambition in Taiwan, make sure Vladimir Putin has

451
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 2: a bloody nose. In Ukraine, make sure there's a high

452
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 2: high and cost of what he's doing, and China is

453
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 2: going to be a little more subdued.

454
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 1: Well. Look, one of the things that I actually would

455
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 1: like to pivot our conversation to. Because you're a former

456
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 1: ambassador of Singapore, You've spent a you've worked in Hong Kong,

457
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 1: you've sort of you you probably understand the Taiwan situation.

458
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: I just had a member of Congress on who just

459
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 1: came from a codel in in Asia and is and

460
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,199
Speaker 1: is really concerned that our weakness on Ukraine is only

461
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: going to UH is only going to motivate China to

462
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 1: feel as if, hey, if we if we go after

463
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 1: Taiwan and twenty seven, Trump isn't going to do a thing.

464
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'd say this, It's a very common a

465
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,120
Speaker 2: minute ago that any sense that the US is not

466
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 2: going to live up to its word and not going

467
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 2: to honor security commitments or not going to attach a

468
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 2: cause of bad behavior, any sense of that that it's

469
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 2: phoning empty Uh, They're going to move. And by the way,

470
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 2: we can go back to Pewtin's first grab in Ukraine,

471
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 2: which was crimea right and whatever Obama did out of that,

472
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 2: obviously Pewtin said, I'm empowered. I'm getting It's not directly

473
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,719
Speaker 2: a green light, but it is a very clear statement

474
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,959
Speaker 2: from Washington that if you grab territory, the benefits succeed

475
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: the cost. What Obama did, he had not sanctions on Russia,

476
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 2: but there are certain citizens he put sactions on in Russia.

477
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 2: And then he said we're going to boycott the special

478
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 2: Olympics were Sochi. So he said we're going to boycott

479
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 2: the Paralympics, and that was his cost he attached. So

480
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,439
Speaker 2: that's a green light to putin. That's if you smash

481
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 2: and grab territory, nothing is going to happen. So they

482
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 2: took that as a big plus. So that was, to

483
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 2: my mind, that was mismanagement, and I think Trump is

484
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 2: piling on that. Trump is not interested in attaching a cost.

485
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 2: At least you could say to defend Obama, at least

486
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 2: you could say at least his rhetoric was critical of Putin.

487
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 2: At least he said Putin is the aggressor here, and

488
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 2: Trump won't even go that far. So I think we're

489
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 2: in a sort of a long term period of having

490
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 2: our returns being called into question, and that empowers the

491
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 2: malevolent countries, that empowers all these guys who are expansionists

492
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 2: and are sniffing around for opportunity.

493
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: So if the Japanese, if the Filipinos, if the South

494
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 1: Korean sense that the Alliance of the United States only

495
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 1: will go so far in providing a check on China,

496
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: how does that change their behavior?

497
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 2: Absolutely? It changes. I think everybody's got to trim their sales.

498
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 2: Everybody's got to accommodate themselves to reality. And if they

499
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 2: say the reality is the United States is not interested

500
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 2: in leadership or costs or risks associated with the turning China.

501
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 2: It's just too expensive force and potentially it hurts our trade.

502
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 2: We just have no appetite for pushing back against China.

503
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 2: Japan has to live with that reality. They can say,

504
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 2: we can't do it by ourselves, so we have to

505
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 2: find some way to accommodate China or toil a little

506
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 2: more towards China. Korea, all the more so since they

507
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 2: have contiguous territory with North Korea. So everybody has to

508
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 2: adjust if the United States leaves the room.

509
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: And that adjustment means a tab more accommodation to the

510
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: to the Chinese tab or accommindation.

511
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 2: To the Chinese. Absolutely. If they can't take us seriously,

512
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 2: they have to take China seriously. So that, by the way,

513
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 2: you're just articulating the overall logic behind US international leadership

514
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 2: to say we are the indispensable nation. Is that book

515
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 2: title provided, and we can be part of any alliance architecture,

516
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: but we've got to be there. We've got to be

517
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: part of that conversation. We've got to have a mutual

518
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 2: defense treaty, we've got to be willing to commit in

519
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 2: case of war. And then that's taken seriously.

520
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 1: Look I look at I mean, I'm going into another

521
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 1: part of the globe here, but there's a conversation going

522
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 1: on with the Katari's wondering, Wait a minute, we have

523
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 1: this huge US base and it didn't prevent our territory

524
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: from being attacked like that. That is that is that is,

525
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 1: which is why apparently we're the US right now is

526
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 1: desperate trying to you know, uh, calm the kataris down,

527
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: which I sort of get. Right, you make a deal

528
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 1: with the US, you assume that provides some umbrella.

529
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 2: There wasn't. There wasn't a mutual security guarantee with cut

530
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 2: Art's not a formal.

531
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: But they thought hosting our base was sort of the

532
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: you know, like, well, they're not going to let anything

533
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: happen to their base, so that should help us, right, Yeah,

534
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: you know, you can tell I'm more ambivalent about this

535
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: because I don't you know, I am too. I'm not

536
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 1: sure where to put the Katari's on here, and I'm

537
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: a little uncomfortable.

538
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: With Saris themselves played both sides, and Hamas is a

539
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 2: terrorist organization, so they were harboring let's sit down with

540
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: the ku Klux Klan and negotiate. We would say, let's

541
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,479
Speaker 2: get rid of the Ku Klux Klan. We wouldn't say

542
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 2: let's sit down with the IRA nor Aid and negotiat.

543
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: We'd say the IRA is a bad organization and we

544
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: ought to get rid of them so well, but didn't.

545
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: Didn't they eventually sit down with the IRA, didn't they eventually?

546
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: I didn't and didn't the US eventually sit down with

547
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: the Taliban? Yeah?

548
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: Now was that wives or foolish? And as Afghanistan will

549
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: know either or not, I think is an open question.

550
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 2: But you know, when we left, when the US left Afghanistan,

551
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: there are eight million kids in school, half male and

552
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 2: half female. Now all the females are kicked out after

553
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 2: grade school. To say, boy, that is not a step ahead.

554
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 2: So so we ought to look at the cost and

555
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 2: the benefit of that withdrawal. Don't just say isn't this great?

556
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 2: Because we really empowered the Taliban and we really hurt

557
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: a lot of people in Afghanistan. We were trying to help.

558
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: Looking back when you were writing, you know, look, every

559
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: author is you can't help but be influenced by the

560
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,360
Speaker 1: experience in the moment that you're having in a political number, right,

561
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: So you know there's a and I'm curious. You know

562
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: there's there's been. I think there's a debate in conservative

563
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: circles about whether Trump is an heir to the Reagan

564
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: LINEA or not. What's say you on that?

565
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 2: I think there's significant differences. There are a few similarities.

566
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: I think both Trump and Reagan are sensitive to the

567
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 2: size of the budget, and so smaller government is more

568
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: helpful than that.

569
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 1: Now, really you think Trump cares about the size of government,

570
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 1: I don't. I really, I think he cares about strong government.

571
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: That's an interesting I don't know if I buy that,

572
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: I think, but Okay, I asked the question.

573
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 2: I was saying, I think there are similarities, but the

574
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 2: differences are huge because back to that international leadership, Trump

575
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 2: Reagan believed in international leadership. Reagan believed the US security,

576
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: US well being is improved by having friends, having allies,

577
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: having working relationships. Every ally and every friend is going

578
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 2: to give me a different amount and some of her performing.

579
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 2: So there's always that burden sharing issue. But boy, you

580
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 2: how many friends do you want? As many as you

581
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 2: can get with sort of Reagan's view also on trade,

582
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: he was Reagan was a free market guy. Reagan said,

583
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 2: whatever we can do to allow for prosperity, allow for

584
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 2: economic growth, allow for people to get.

585
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: Hired, businesses to grow, that's good.

586
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: That's good. And the international dimension of that is very

587
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 2: healthy for America and it has security dimensions as well.

588
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: And Trump is just very mixed on that to say,

589
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 2: I want to take shares I US government, want to

590
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 2: take shares of private companies. I want to grab revenue

591
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: for private companies.

592
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: And his view of trade is just.

593
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: Puzzling about trade is fundamentally deleterious. Trade is fundamentally harmful

594
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 2: to the United States. So I'm going to put a

595
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 2: terify on everybody. It's almost odd. I look at that,

596
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 2: and it's almost a Marxist critique of capitalism. Every single

597
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 2: person has is bad faith. Every single transaction is somebody's

598
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 2: trying to hurt you. There's nobody out there just selling

599
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 2: us something that actually might help our economy. So everybody

600
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 2: should be terriffed. Everybody is sinister, everybody is harmful, and

601
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 2: we need to push back against the world. Is a

602
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 2: very odd way to go through life.

603
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: Well, this is what concerns me the most, is like,

604
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: when we decide we're going to be whatever benefits us

605
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: and we don't care about the benefits to anybody else, well,

606
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: it's only going to encourage everybody else to think that way. Yeah.

607
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: And by the way, I think even that premise mistakes

608
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: things because he's when Canada sells us in expensive aluminum,

609
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 2: that helps us, that creates more jobs. So it's not China's.

610
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 2: Canada is not tricking us, they're not cheating us, they're

611
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 2: not lying to us. They're helping our economy. Something like

612
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 2: six times as many people work in aluminum fabrication and

613
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 2: use aluminum that manufacture illuminum, so they're giving us inexpensive aluminum.

614
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 2: We we're creating jobs here. So so the premise of

615
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 2: saying this guy's are hurting us or cheating us by

616
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 2: selling us up the inexpensive is a faulty premise.

617
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: So talk about your How did you were a pretty

618
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: young staffer? You're not, You're you know, most Reagan era

619
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: folks have a lot more gray than you do. Although

620
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: you've got the nice beard you know going on there.

621
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: Like I said, you got your Civil War beard going on.

622
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: You know Garfield here in Ohio and you know a

623
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: little James Garfield there what you know. But I've always

624
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: said a white House as a young person's is a

625
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: young person's game, Like it's your twenties and thirties, you know,

626
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: once you're in your forties or fifties and you don't

627
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: have the stamina I think to do it. So what

628
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: was the you know, how often would you get time

629
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: with Reagan? You know, how often did you get to

630
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: be the staff to show up.

631
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: In a room? I can answer that, at least partially

632
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,479
Speaker 2: with a pretty exact number, because I was in the

633
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 2: NSC when I ran Contra broke, and we had a

634
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: number of the post scandal sort of investigations, the Tower Commission,

635
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 2: and there was an FBI investor there were at least

636
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 2: and then the US Senate did something at least three

637
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 2: sort of formal examinations about what was going on that year,

638
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 2: and we literally, as an NSC staffer, we had to

639
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 2: go in tallly. So you must tally and delineate every

640
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 2: single meeting you had with Ronald Reagan in nineteen eighty six.

641
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 2: I have like one hundred and fifty fives meeting.

642
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: This is like like you had to not only I

643
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: had to go.

644
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 2: I spent like a day and a half going through

645
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 2: my calendar. Right this is before we had online stubb.

646
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 2: I had like write all this stuff. Then are you're

647
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 2: submitting it to I think to the FBI, But you're

648
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 2: submitting it for testimony, so it's a legal document. You

649
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 2: better check your facts and make sure it's correct. So

650
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time with Reagan and the NSC.

651
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: I was in the political office than half. I was

652
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 2: director of the political office for the eighty seven eighty

653
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: eight cycle vice President George Bush against Governor Michael Ducaucas

654
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 2: and I was doing more. But unless I would maybe

655
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 2: see Reagan once a week or twice a week, it

656
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 2: was a lot less frequency in the politicals. You were

657
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: kind of much more outward facing. The NSC was kind

658
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: of more inward management.

659
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: You didn't did You didn't chalk up the less frequency

660
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: to them sheltering him a little bit more Duberstein and Baker.

661
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 2: No, I saw him a lot. Look, I was I

662
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 2: was part of the family. So it wasn't like I

663
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: was going to.

664
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: Repel it, right, No, I know that, but like just

665
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: if they were just being protective of him just generally.

666
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 2: No, there was that. There was you know, the biggest

667
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: time I saw that close to that was we had

668
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 2: a there was a tumor found I think in his

669
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 2: lower intestine after the eighty six election, and it was

670
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: about a two month recovery, and there was definitely a

671
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,479
Speaker 2: very managed schedule that he just had less stamina for

672
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 2: those two months. But he was back in the game.

673
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 2: And I'll tell you we saw this dramatically in eighty seven.

674
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 2: The final four months of eighty seven, he was out

675
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 2: there campaigning for Bush. He wanted Bush to win. He

676
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: told me, I'm governor of California for eight years, and

677
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 2: we think we're moving to state the right way. And

678
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 2: as soon as I leave office, Jerry Brown comes in

679
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 2: and unwinds everything I've done. And I do not want

680
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: to have Michael Ducaucus come in and unwind everything we've done.

681
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 2: So we've got to make sure that George Bush gets

682
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: in there. So he was really committed, really excited and

683
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: hardworking on that race.

684
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: I kind of ask you, what was your reaction when

685
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: you saw the news that Oliver North and fun Hall married.

686
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was amazing. I knew Ali and Fawn pretty well.

687
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 1: I mean, that must be tough of those that family, right,

688
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: they've probably been They've probably been dealing with whispers for years, decades,

689
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: and then you're like, gee, thanks dad.

690
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: It's it's a bit of a jaw dropper. But let

691
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 2: me say this, I don't want to intimate anything inappropriate

692
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 2: because we don't know have chemistry. Certain people have chemistry

693
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 2: and a bond that is not involve intimacy, that there's

694
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 2: some special moment. Both of them are in the foxhole together,

695
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 2: both of them are taking in coming from both of

696
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 2: them have legal exposure and possible some time. So if

697
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 2: you've gone through that type of trauma, uh, there's a bond.

698
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: There's a bond. So I wouldn't necessarily assume anything beyond that.

699
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: Air enough, fair enough, But that was one of those

700
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 1: You're like, wow, it's a jaw dropper.

701
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 2: It is a jaw dropper. So well, all we can

702
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 2: do is wish him happiness. And you know, Fawn's husband

703
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: who passed away was the road manager or the general

704
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 2: manager for the Doors, the rock group, no kidding, So

705
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 2: I didn't involved in Hollywood and rock music and uh.

706
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 2: And another interesting aspect of this that isn't why they

707
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 2: board it is And I worked with her. I knew

708
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,479
Speaker 2: her more than I knew Fawn. Fawn's mother, Wilma, worked

709
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 2: at the NSC. It was an odd it's odd to

710
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 2: have sort of a multi generational but they worked there

711
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 2: at the same time. But Wilma. But I knew Wilma

712
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: and worked with Wilma more than I knew Faun. I

713
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: knew the mom more than the daughter. She was great.

714
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 2: Wilma was great. Realma was really good, really professional, worked

715
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 2: for the Nationalist, great advisor for Coindexter than coin Piles,

716
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 2: who worked in very senior spots, uh and was a

717
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 2: top notch professional.

718
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: What do you make of the of what's happened with

719
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: the NSC, and that it's sort of lumped in with

720
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: that Rubyo. You know, he's pulling the Kissinger overseeing both

721
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: and you know, based on your experience, how's how does

722
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: that work? And and is it is it? Do you

723
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,439
Speaker 1: think it's is more problematic?

724
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, But my starting point is Trump is not foreign

725
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 2: policy oriented, Okay. Trump is a transactional guy, not sort

726
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 2: of an abstract person. Trump doesn't necessarily care if there's

727
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 2: a geopolitical challenge to the United States or something decurating someplace.

728
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: I mean that's Ukraine or probably time on that's not

729
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 2: top of mine. He has not said anything negative about

730
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,439
Speaker 2: Putin since he's been president. He's not said anything wrongly

731
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 2: negative about she. She didn't ping accept trade issues. Trade

732
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 2: issues is the one sort of legitimate area.

733
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: He can rejoys, my friend, you know.

734
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the point is, though, my starting point is, look,

735
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 2: this guy is not organized around what is America's role

736
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 2: in the world, and how do we push back against

737
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 2: challenges and threats and how do we enhance our friendship

738
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 2: and cultivate good relations with like minded nations the way

739
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: most presidents would look at diplomacy or in a national relations.

740
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 2: So I think I think what he's really saying giving

741
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: Rubio this extra job is that it's it's just sort

742
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 2: of a processing It's a clerical unit. Somebody calls up,

743
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 2: somebody needs to respond to the phone call. It's kind

744
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: of nineteenth century foreign policy. We didn't really have a

745
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 2: foreign policy. But if the Argentine Foreign Minister calls up,

746
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 2: somebody's got to return the phone call. So it's a

747
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: kind of a clerical exercise without any ultimate goal in mind.

748
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: So give me what the ideal distinctions between the National

749
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: Security Council and the State Department were during your days,

750
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: and your mind should.

751
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 2: Be well, the NSC works personally for the president as

752
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 2: his advisor, so it's not responsible for broad US foreign

753
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 2: policy concerns. But what does the president do? So, for example,

754
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 2: my job was presidential meetings and functions outbound and inbound,

755
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 2: meaning who should the president receive in the overall office

756
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 2: and meet with him? What purpose? So if the Japanese

757
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 2: Prime Minister is coming here in two months, what is

758
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: supposed to happen when he meets the president? What accomplishment

759
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 2: we want? What is our goal? What problem do we

760
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 2: want solved?

761
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: You are a part of this. I always try to

762
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: tell people a lot of things are pre cooked. You

763
00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,720
Speaker 1: were one of those prep chefs, right, Yeah.

764
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, but also that's the whole point of the meeting

765
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 2: is to declare victory and say we solve. And the

766
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 2: whole point is now we can talk to the Japanese

767
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 2: Foreign Ministry and we can tell them my friend your

768
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 2: boss is coming to see us in two months. Do

769
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 2: we want to say it was a great meeting or

770
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 2: do we want to say we missed the boat. Let's

771
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: work for a great meeting, and here are the three

772
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 2: or four things we think need to happen. By the way,

773
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: they've got three or four things as well. But it's

774
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: basically a positive relationship. So we ought to be able

775
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:24,839
Speaker 2: to work through most or all.

776
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: And it's your job to know what they want to

777
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: and you are to convey that you're at.

778
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 2: Meeting with them. You're a literally meeting with a regular

779
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 2: and even mechanical aspects. Are they having lunch or is

780
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 2: it a state dinner? Are there other cities the Prime

781
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,879
Speaker 2: Minister is going to. Is the Prime minister's spouse accompanying him,

782
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 2: and is that person also making speeches or involved with

783
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 2: the charity. So let's understand everything that's going on. Let's

784
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 2: make this as successful as possible, and let's solve the

785
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 2: two or three big problems we've got. Let's use this meeting.

786
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 2: It's not a ceremonial meeting. It's to try to move

787
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 2: our agenda ahead.

788
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: So in some way, if Trump doesn't really care about

789
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 1: foreign policy in the way that frankly to other presidents

790
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: of our of our lifetime have, then you might as

791
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: well organize it this way. Fine, let me might as well.

792
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think what he is very sensitive to

793
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 2: is simply how he's treated and is there respect or

794
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,879
Speaker 2: deference given. And if he is treated with deference, then

795
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 2: that's it's almost like medieval Europe, you know, it's almost

796
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 2: like a medieval court where I don't care who you are,

797
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 2: I don't care what you stand for. But as long

798
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 2: as you bow before the king and say your majesty,

799
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 2: you're looking pretty good. You ought to have a few

800
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 2: Nobel prizes. As long as you say that you're you're

801
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 2: a friend, you're a good fellow. And if you say

802
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:36,919
Speaker 2: you know, mister president, I think you're going the wrong way,

803
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 2: which Angela Merkel might have said, or Emanuel mccron might

804
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 2: have said, you are a troublemaker and you're showing disrespect.

805
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: You're a history junkie, do you do you accept the

806
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: premise that this this wing of the Republican Party that's

807
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: now in charge goes back to the nineteen twenties and thirties,

808
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: that that's what that that there's always been this sort

809
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: of isolationist wing, you know, sort of a protectionist wing,

810
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 1: you know, sort of however you want to describe it,

811
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 1: you know, because do you do you do you think

812
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 1: that's a fair comparison.

813
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 2: I think it's hard to draw straight linear I think

814
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 2: you'd say these tendencies have existed in US politics. For

815
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 2: mem There's always been something that's more nationalists, something that's more.

816
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: And sometimes this rises up on any country, including ours.

817
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: Sometimes the nationalistic view is left wing, sometimes it's right wing,

818
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: and it always creeps into two things. One is anti

819
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: sebbotism and the other is, no matter which which way

820
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: it goes, is anti sebbotism. And then it becomes a

821
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 1: bit more authoritarian if you're not careful.

822
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 2: And in the modern era of the more protectionist party

823
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 2: were always the Democrats they have the Union days, they're

824
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 2: always the less.

825
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm my entire twentieth century brain has been imploded, right,

826
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: you know, you have the Democrats of the free traders

827
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: of the like what his dad left is right, cats

828
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: and dogs living together.

829
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 2: But there's a little bit of a conundrum for the

830
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 2: Dems in twenty eight because on the one hand, they

831
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:06,879
Speaker 2: want to be anti Trump and say Trump is really

832
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: taking us the wrong way, which I believe is a

833
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 2: fair hit. But on the other hand they'll have unions

834
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 2: and other interest rooms and say, well, for God's sakes,

835
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 2: don't unwind what he did. For God's sakes, keep it

836
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 2: in place.

837
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 1: Well, let's go back to your home state. Like I

838
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: think shared Brown is a flawed messenger for what the

839
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: Democrats might need in twenty twenty six because there are

840
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,839
Speaker 1: some of these tariffs he's in favor of. And yet

841
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 1: you know, I think this is this is you know

842
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: that the most vulnerable part of what's happening is on

843
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: the economy and tariffs, and you know the cost increase

844
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: on prescription drugs and on a cup of coffee, and

845
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: you know all these things. Right, is he going to

846
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 1: be the best messenger for that? Look he is, by

847
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: the way, he is a bright guy.

848
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 2: He's a surepited guy. Oh, nothing personally objectionable about him,

849
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 2: But boy, he is old and I don't mean just

850
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,919
Speaker 2: chronologically aged, but I also mean he is.

851
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: Just from an older era of politics. I don't think that.

852
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 2: Is I'll bet you there's nobody in the Senate today

853
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 2: who's run for public office more time, not even Chuck

854
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 2: Schumer more times than Shared Brown.

855
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: Well, the only other person that comes close is the

856
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 1: person he replaced in the Senate in Ohio, Mike Dwine.

857
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was run for state wide offices,

858
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: Mike de wit is Shared Brown, right.

859
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 2: That's right. And each of them were in Congress and

860
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,760
Speaker 2: Shared was state legislature did they both were ages.

861
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 1: Shared was like state secretary of state of right secret state,

862
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 1: and the Wine was the ag I mean they both

863
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: they both lost races, you know multiple times. Right, they're

864
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: they're not they're sort of they remind me of, you know,

865
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: the sort of the boxers that weren't Ali right that

866
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: every once in a while they get a belt, but

867
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: they were always sort of like second, you know with

868
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 1: the big guys Cable, Well, he has persistence.

869
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 2: I mean, you have the right, but this is uh,

870
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 2: you know, I.

871
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 1: Mean I think of them, both of them that way,

872
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 1: Wine and Brown, Right, No.

873
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: You're right, you're right. Uh, but I think I think

874
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 2: the too relatively that might be a negative or a

875
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 2: challenge for Shure.

876
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:03,879
Speaker 1: I think so too.

877
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: How do I reinvent myself, reposition myself. I'm not the

878
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 2: voice of the future, you know. And if my heart

879
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,760
Speaker 2: and soul was sort of the suburban left of center

880
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: or the industrial workers, those are shrinker shifting constituencies. And

881
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 2: I'll say any Democrat has to come to terms with

882
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 2: some of the cultural issues that really sunk Biden. I mean,

883
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 2: I would let me ask you this, how would you

884
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,720
Speaker 2: tell a Democratic presidential nominee twenty eight to talk about

885
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 2: border controls? Should they say, you know, Trump made a

886
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 2: good point. Should they say, I h Trump's kind of

887
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 2: your point on protectionism, but it's border. Don't they have

888
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 2: to say we need border controls?

889
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 1: Well? I think the issue that Democrats have and they

890
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 1: don't fully understand with swing voters is there's a lot

891
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 1: of Trump's ideas are popular, the tactics unpopular, right like,

892
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: nobody nobody likes you know, you know, we want the

893
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 1: border was chaotic and we want immigration, right like, you know,

894
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: you know The thing is is that that's America, Okay, we

895
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: are we are always contradictory on that, sure, but we

896
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: want both things. We want order, right, we do want

897
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 1: law and order, and we want freedoms and we want that.

898
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, no, I.

899
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 2: Was gonna say, I think the voters will give you

900
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 2: latitude on the second point as long as you pass

901
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 2: a threshold on the first. On the first point, border controls,

902
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,720
Speaker 2: you've got to have credibility. You've got to say, every

903
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 2: country in the world decides who gets in. Every country

904
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,240
Speaker 2: in the world has the right to control its borders,

905
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 2: and I will do that as present. So you've got

906
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 2: to say, plant that flag, own that issue. Don't let

907
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 2: anybody beat you up on that. Once you say that,

908
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 2: now you have flexibility to say, well, by the way,

909
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 2: how many immigrants do we need anyhow or want anyhow?

910
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 1: And what criteria is a fair question.

911
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 2: But you only will listen to that second question if

912
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 2: you win on that first question.

913
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: I mean, it turns out those protests calling Obama to

914
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: porter in chief at twenty twelve were probably gifts. It

915
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: turns out those were political gifts because it told Middle America, oh, well,

916
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: he must be doing something, okay there whatever.

917
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 2: The soldier kind of moment.

918
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 1: Without him having to do it, right, They just sort

919
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: of showed up and you know, I'm like, I'm going

920
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: to listen to you.

921
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 2: But you know Obama had remained in Mexico, yes, right, which,

922
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 2: by the way, stands to reason that you should not

923
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 2: benefit from a government policy while you're waiting to be

924
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 2: approved for that policy. So it stands to reason that

925
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 2: you should not be invited into the country while your

926
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 2: application is in process.

927
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,479
Speaker 1: And the fact is, this is how the Canadians work,

928
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 1: So they have to you have to stay in America

929
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 1: if you're trying to ask for asylum in the in

930
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: the in Canada.

931
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 2: A friend, a friend in Singapore told me, if you

932
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 2: took every single proposal Donald Trump on immigration topped about him,

933
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 2: every single thing he said, he would still be more

934
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 2: liberal than any Asian country on immigration. So the Japanese,

935
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 2: the Korean, Singapore, all these guys said, look, we do

936
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 2: not want you here unless we say it it's okay.

937
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 2: So there's no illegal immigration, there's no certainly remaining kinds

938
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 2: of there's no catch and release. Right, we are going

939
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 2: to run a proper system and you only get in

940
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 2: if we say you can get in.

941
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 1: So to go back to our sort of this the

942
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: question I had about you know, where where where is it?

943
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:21,240
Speaker 1: Is it the same family tree branch Reagan and Trump

944
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 1: or not? Or is it a is it a different

945
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 1: you know, where does it differ?

946
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 2: Where does it significant? And by the way, stylistic as

947
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 2: well as substance. So Reagan believed in the national leadership,

948
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 2: believed in trade, and stylistically he was an upbeat guy.

949
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 2: Reagan was fundamentally administrational message and Trump is fundamentally a

950
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 2: grievance message. Trump is saying I want to tell you

951
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 2: what's wrong and there are bad people out there trying

952
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 2: to hurt us, and Reagan is saying, I want to

953
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 2: tell you what's right and how we can make this

954
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 2: country a better place. So very very different psychology. I

955
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 2: think between those two, what.

956
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:52,280
Speaker 1: Is conservatism today?

957
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 2: Not?

958
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: I guess what what is it to you? And and

959
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 1: you know, because just because Trump's four to me, does

960
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 1: it make it conservative? And yet I watched the media

961
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:08,760
Speaker 1: now just lump whatever Trump's for, that's now what conservatism means.

962
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 1: And yeah, look, the Heritage Foundation has really sort of

963
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: warped my brain here because they're no longer ideological. They

964
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: decided to go by AEI kept their ideological bona fides

965
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: or heritage did not.

966
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 2: That's right, and Wall Street Journals with AI and National

967
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 2: Reviews with it. So there are some traditional conservs to me.

968
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 2: You know, philosophically means ordered liberty, that people have as

969
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 2: much personal liberty to live life as they choose, as

970
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,879
Speaker 2: they see fit, but it has to take place within

971
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: some kind of societal norms, some kind of legal structure.

972
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 2: So it's not anarchy. It's not pure libertarianism. But if

973
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 2: you you know life liberty and the pursuit of happen

974
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: is you get to live life on your terms as

975
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 2: you see fit, as long as you're not hurting your neighbor.

976
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 2: So that's the fundamental philosophical point. And that translates economically

977
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 2: into market economics. If you want to start a restaurant,

978
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 2: start a restaurant, you want to make shoes, go make shoes,

979
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 2: You want to write computer code, God bless you do

980
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 2: whatever you choose to do, and we hope you make

981
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 2: money and prosper and that's how society moves ahead.

982
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,760
Speaker 1: We could mit Romney and Paul Ryan have done differently

983
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: to keep this wing of the party from essentially overwhelming

984
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: what was the Eisenhower a bush consensus of conservatism.

985
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really striking to me that Trump was able

986
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 2: to get control of the party so readily, so easily.

987
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 2: And he is a.

988
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: Terrific showman, so to speak.

989
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 2: He's got a great stage presence, he's got the angriest

990
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 2: message around. But boy, there was zero government track record,

991
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 2: there was zero sort of success, and there was a

992
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 2: personal life that was incredibly controversial. I mean, you say,

993
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 2: nobody said I want my kid to be like Donald Trump.

994
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 2: So I was just astonishing to me that he pulled

995
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 2: this off. And I think he even surprised himself. I

996
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 2: think when he first ran, he said, I'm gonna have

997
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 2: some fun. I'll get on some debates, I'll yell at people.

998
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: But I thought it was a business decision at first,

999
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: and I think he thought it was a business decision

1000
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: at first.

1001
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 2: But look, I think that weirdness you will and bed

1002
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 2: some good news, because the good news is our national

1003
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 2: political structures are plastic. They can be molded and shaped

1004
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 2: and deformed by anybody. So to somebody who says, well,

1005
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 2: Donald Trump's now sort of permanently shifted US politics, I

1006
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:14,280
Speaker 2: don't think that's.

1007
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 1: Ever really true. God, it never is.

1008
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 2: Ya the best guy in the room shifts it his

1009
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 2: way and best I mean best in a political messaging

1010
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 2: sense of that word. So whoever the next best person

1011
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 2: is will move it his way, and I suspect there'll

1012
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: be a little bit of us pendulum swing back no

1013
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 2: matter how maga or anti maga. The next nominee is

1014
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 2: be Donald Trump.

1015
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting I always said that you knew

1016
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: Reagan won the argument when Bill Clinton stood up at

1017
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: a State of the Union and said the era of

1018
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: big government as yeah, yeah, you know, it's sort of

1019
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 1: like it took and you know here was this was

1020
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 1: it was I think the ninety five State of the

1021
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: Union he said this. So so this is seven years

1022
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: after the Reagan presidency, right, And you're like, oh, Reagan

1023
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 1: won the argument, right, Do you say the same with entitlements, Like,

1024
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: because I do. I've always said the magic potion of Trump, right,

1025
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 1: which was, I think he's got the presidency on culture,

1026
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: but in order to get there, he got there on entitlements.

1027
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: And it was sort of like, oh, Obama won the

1028
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: argument about government safety nets on healthcare, and that ultimately

1029
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: that's how Trump was able to get so many of

1030
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: those Obama voters from Iowa and Ohio.

1031
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 2: You mean by not taking on entitlements, correct, right, right? Yes,

1032
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:38,439
Speaker 2: I think I think you're right. I don't think I think.

1033
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 2: He also said, look, Reagan.

1034
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: Spent basically the era big government is back. Sorry, well,

1035
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 1: although is feudal, it's feudal. That's a feudal government. Yes,

1036
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: your futalistical cost benefit is way out of whack.

1037
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: And what do you do if you if you and

1038
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 2: I say, look, post office usage is declining every year

1039
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 2: for the last twenty years, email and other alternatives declining.

1040
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 2: Let's find the five percent of the post offices in

1041
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 2: America that are the least used, and let's good luck,

1042
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 2: good luck, good luck. You will spend five years trying

1043
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 2: to do that, you'll wind up closing six and you'll

1044
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 2: save one hundred thousand dollars.

1045
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: So any but the political cost that was.

1046
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 2: An extraordinary, extraordinary So so I would. I mean, there's

1047
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 2: an argument that Trump is saying, look, he understands cost

1048
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 2: benefit to say, you're going to put your head against

1049
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 2: the wall. Even if everybody agrees, we just don't need

1050
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 2: that kind of post office density in America. You're you're

1051
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 2: a fool if you go down that path. So just

1052
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 2: leave it alone. Yeah.

1053
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: Well, I still look at the post office. The fact

1054
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 1: that I can hand you a piece of paper and

1055
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 1: a dollar and say, can you take it across country

1056
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: in three days?

1057
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I can. I can do it for a

1058
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 2: dollar less than that with emails my point. So I

1059
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:49,760
Speaker 2: can save you a dollar.

1060
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: So, but I can't send my product there, you know.

1061
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, fair enough. I look, there's all I wasn't saying,

1062
00:51:56,160 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 2: destroy a blood post No, no, no, you can what

1063
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 2: the post office does. By the way, the way to

1064
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 2: do it, since around us the way to do it

1065
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 2: is simply to make pay the Americans, meaning, don't go

1066
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 2: after a geographic locale and say we're going to Cincinnati

1067
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 2: and we're an inclosure. Don't do that. But what we

1068
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 2: should say is, look, anybody who does not want postal

1069
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 2: delivery on Saturday and will agree for one year to

1070
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 2: forego that, we will give your household one hundred dollars.

1071
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 2: We will pay you because.

1072
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: That financial incentive.

1073
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 2: Right now, So financial incentive and write for.

1074
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 1: Economics that sounds like a chapter out of freakonomics.

1075
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 2: And at the same time you tell every postal worker, yes,

1076
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 2: this will definitely decrease flow, decrease activity, but it'll decrease it,

1077
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 2: you know, two percent a year provias, So we're not

1078
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 2: going to fire anybody or can guarantee you it's all

1079
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 2: going to be attrition.

1080
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: So it's going to be peaceful shrinkage over five years.

1081
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 1: So you have to do things.

1082
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 2: But by the way, even if you do that, you say,

1083
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 2: how much money did I say for the US?

1084
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 1: You say, this is a huge waste of time to

1085
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: do this thing. But every little bit helps. I mean,

1086
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: that's what you get at. Something that I always try

1087
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: to preach on this podcast these days, which is I

1088
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,840
Speaker 1: always say, you know, people try to pigeonhole me. Is

1089
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 1: either a both sides ers or this? You know is this?

1090
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,280
Speaker 1: And I always say, look, you have to start incrementally.

1091
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 1: I'm an incrementalist. I'm not a centrist or a moderate.

1092
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: I'm an incrementalist, meaning I have i'd love some big ideas,

1093
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 1: but I also know to implement a big idea, you

1094
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 1: got to do it with you.

1095
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 2: And by the way, somebody like Trump has no patience

1096
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 2: for that right, and there's just no there's no payoff

1097
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 2: and saying let's fix this problem three percent a year

1098
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 2: or something, so it just doesn't get done.

1099
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 1: It doesn't get sned. So what is Trump a conservative?

1100
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 1: What is conservatism? Okay, what is the future of conservatism?

1101
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: But where does age?

1102
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 2: But he rejects the exotic nature of some of the left.

1103
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 2: There's a cultural left which is fringe, which is marginal

1104
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 2: on men playing women's sports and so forth, and he

1105
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 2: rejects that. So that's reassuring to Middle America. That's not

1106
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 2: quite that's his unity. That's how what keep glues his

1107
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,359
Speaker 2: coalition gat losing together by the way the rule. So

1108
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 2: the the parallel question is will the cultural left dominate

1109
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 2: the Democratic Party or can a Democratic nominee push back

1110
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 2: against those Now Ram Emmanuel and I guess in a

1111
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 2: radio interview, said that men should not play in women's sports.

1112
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 2: So he's positioning himself to be more acceptable. I don't

1113
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 2: know if any other Democrat has come to terms with

1114
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 2: that issue. Gavin K.

1115
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 1: Newsome kind of did.

1116
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 2: It, Okay, Okay, well good for it now on that.

1117
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I look at what Wes Moore, you know,

1118
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 1: is doing with the with Baltimore and he said, you

1119
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: know what, we'll surge resource. You know, I find what

1120
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 1: interesting to watch Pritzker fight Trump tooth and nail on

1121
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 1: this in Chicago, and Wes Moore going, look, we don't

1122
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 1: want the FEDS here because that's going to that's going

1123
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 1: to get in our way. We're making progress, and I'm

1124
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: going to sarch some more resources.

1125
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 2: I thought that was very wise, Wes Moore, very shrewd.

1126
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 2: So I mean he's without explicitly saying there's some validity

1127
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 2: to Trump's concerns, without giving Trump any credit at all,

1128
00:54:58,760 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 2: He's just saying, let me do it for you.

1129
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 1: So this goes back to what we were talking about, Like,

1130
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: the public here is generally like, yeah, what we agree

1131
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 1: that what he says is a problem is a problem.

1132
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 1: We just don't like how you know, but I don't

1133
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,919
Speaker 1: want the masked ice agents. That's crazy. Don't do that,

1134
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 1: you know.

1135
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 2: I'd even go one step further, and the economists called

1136
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 2: Trump's anti crime policy sinister brilliance, meaning it's not just

1137
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 2: that he's tactically offensive, he is deliberately tactically offensive. Because

1138
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 2: it only really works if you know, if you want

1139
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 2: to say, who is the least intelligent big city mayor

1140
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 2: in America, well it might be Chicago. And it only

1141
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 2: this whole thing really works only if the mayor of

1142
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:38,800
Speaker 2: Chicago gets up and arm.

1143
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 1: I believe we're calling this nut picking. You know, you

1144
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 1: go right right, you picked the most extreme. Uh, But

1145
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 1: the mayor of Loves Loves being the fall guy. Here's

1146
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: to his constituency.

1147
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 2: He's outraged and he's saying, you're being mean to me

1148
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 2: and will never take it.

1149
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: You can't trick me. And and what did Prince Corusadan's interview?

1150
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 2: All big cities have murders a lot of crime, and

1151
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 2: I'm just a dreadful response to terrible apologize or deflect

1152
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 2: the fact that what is it seven people killed over

1153
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 2: holiday weekend or whatever it was in Chicago. So they

1154
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 2: play and writer into Trump's hands.

1155
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,360
Speaker 1: There never really wasn't air to Reagan, was there? Like Bush?

1156
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 1: Ultimately didn't you know he won because he was Reagan's VP.

1157
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 1: He lost because he wasn't Reagan, except that, you know,

1158
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 1: Bush had all sorts of strength.

1159
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 2: Bush just had a really kind of an impressive guy,

1160
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,720
Speaker 2: very serious about government, about policy, no scandals, no personal

1161
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 2: behavior on this So Bush was really a quality guy.

1162
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,720
Speaker 2: What he didn't have is emotional connectivity with the electorate.

1163
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 2: What he really thought was the job of president is

1164
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 2: I'm going to handle the inbox solve problems with the out.

1165
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:51,319
Speaker 2: But it was almost kind of a nineteenth century view

1166
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 2: of the office. That's say, we're not really in a

1167
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 2: communications age. All I have to do is be serious

1168
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 2: about my job, be honest and hardworking, and and that's success.

1169
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 2: To say, boy, in the communications era, you're missing a lot.

1170
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 2: You're missing a lot. So he really didn't. Reagan, I've

1171
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 2: been with a Hollywood and radio and television background, just

1172
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 2: had an intrinsic DNA oriented towards communication out we're facing

1173
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 2: and Bush just didn't have that.

1174
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 1: So there was a huge gap there. So what do

1175
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: you make of this? Is there an ara to Trump

1176
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: and what does that look like? Or is it probably

1177
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 1: similar to what By the way, there is no successor

1178
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: you know.

1179
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 2: In eighty eight and even in ninety two you had

1180
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 2: a lot of guys everybody was saying. Phil Crane said,

1181
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 2: I'm Ronald Reagan, Bob Dole said, I'm Ronald Reagan, everybody.

1182
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 1: So I grew up assuming Jack Kemp was the real era,

1183
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 1: and I still believe he was the real era. Air

1184
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 1: the Reagan.

1185
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 2: Meaning, regardless of where these people really are in the

1186
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 2: Maga spectr Maga universe, you're gonna have eight people say

1187
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 2: I am Donald Trump. I'm Donald Trump, but I feel

1188
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 2: it a little more this way. I'm Donald Trump, but

1189
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 2: this kind of but so eight people saying I'm running

1190
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 2: as a mini me, as an improved or variant of

1191
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 2: Donald Trump. There'll be a few people will say, you know,

1192
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 2: I love Donald Trump, but we have to be post Trump. Now.

1193
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 2: Trump was the right man for his time, So that's

1194
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 2: kind of a that's not anti maga, but it's sort

1195
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 2: of a non maga person. But you know, the one

1196
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 2: anti MAGA person last time was Chris Christie, and I

1197
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 2: think he topped out in like five percent. I walked

1198
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 2: into debates, he was pretty good. I mean, he's a

1199
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 2: smart guy, he's a serious guy in policy. But he

1200
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 2: ran explicitly saying Maga is bad news, and he got

1201
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 2: about five percent. Then there were two or three people

1202
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 2: who were non Maga, Nikki Hayley and Tim Scott. People

1203
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 2: said I'm not really mega, but I've gotten some alternative ideas,

1204
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 2: and they topped out about thirty percent. So it was

1205
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 2: a mega party. It was a Donald Trump party.

1206
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 1: No, there's no doubt that, you know, if you know,

1207
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 1: I looked back at the Buchanan challenge of hw Bush

1208
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 1: as sort of the first that was the beta test

1209
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 1: of Trump, right, you know that was and what did

1210
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 1: he get about thirty percent? And now we've almost seen

1211
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 1: it flip?

1212
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 2: Right?

1213
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: What was two thirds? One third? Sort of the the

1214
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 1: more internationalists Chamber of Commerce wing of the Republican Party

1215
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 1: was two thirds of the party. The isolationists, you know,

1216
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 1: sort of protectionist wighing was one third. Is it fair

1217
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 1: to say we've sort of well what the spots is it?

1218
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:12,959
Speaker 1: I don't know, Chuck.

1219
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 2: I mean, I've seen polls say some sixty plus percent

1220
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:19,400
Speaker 2: of Americans and Republicans and tariffs are bad idea. So

1221
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 2: you know, there's deference to this guy because he's president.

1222
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 2: There's a willingness to indulge him. As long as the economy.

1223
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 1: I think free trade can come back in twenty twenty nine.

1224
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 2: I don't know if there's a reversal, but I'm saying

1225
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 2: people aren't necessarily endorsing or behind what he's doing. It's

1226
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 2: going to take political leadership to reverse this stuff, and

1227
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 2: you might have to look for something kind of clever

1228
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 2: meaning just to say I'm for trade liberalization might not

1229
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 2: get anywhere. But if you said, for example, if we're

1230
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 2: serious about the environment, we need a US EU electric

1231
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 2: vehicle free trade agreements. We're gonna do adjust with evs.

1232
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 2: We're gonna adjust with Europe. And I'm saying Europe because

1233
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 2: the big problem on the left is always that labor

1234
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 2: or that wage rate that say, you're secretly shipping jobs

1235
00:59:57,560 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 2: to Mexico and you're cheating us.

1236
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 1: You se is a little more equal on the way too.

1237
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, Germany is more expensive than we are. Nobody's gonna

1238
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 2: ship a job to Germany and make cars. Are gonna

1239
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 2: ship jobs here, So so it'll reassure Americans there's not

1240
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 2: going to be job loss, There'll be efficiencies and economic

1241
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 2: gains out of it. But nobody's gonna put up an

1242
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 2: auto plant in Germany because so look for something like

1243
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 2: that that might give us an opening. Uh. There has

1244
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 2: mean there has to be an argument rationale beyond the

1245
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 2: pure economic efficiency that will allow people to vote for.

1246
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 1: Most people that listen to my podcasts know that I

1247
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 1: am a part time professor at USC. So are you

1248
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 1: welcome to the family here Thorns and it's dorn Seife

1249
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 1: is the business school or I'm not yet ready to

1250
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 1: root for Trojans football. I haven't gone that far. I

1251
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 1: cannot do that.

1252
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 2: And you made a goodness I know Thort's campus, my friend,

1253
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 2: is better camouflage your heterodox views. If you come here,

1254
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 2: you're gonna get strong.

1255
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 1: But as an Ohio guy, I mean you must feel

1256
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: a little.

1257
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 2: Bit of it.

1258
01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:59,240
Speaker 1: Especially it's a big ten school, right, I've.

1259
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 2: Got to keep that quiet. I got to keep that quiet.

1260
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 2: And the test will come when they play it as

1261
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 2: far when they compete against each other. Right, But you're right,

1262
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:09,160
Speaker 2: I've got to keep that buck eye pedigrequiet. But I'll

1263
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 2: tell you this, it is wonderful to be here on campus.

1264
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 2: And there's an enormous amount of school spirit and as

1265
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 2: we were talking earlier, and just sports, which is part

1266
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 2: of it, but there's an intellectual hunger here. People are

1267
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:21,360
Speaker 2: trying to understand the world where it's going, how they

1268
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 2: can fit in, how they can contribute, how they can

1269
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 2: benefit and get a job or make some kind of career.

1270
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 2: That So it's great to be with this kind of environment.

1271
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 1: I teach spring semesters. I don't teach fallse semesters, but

1272
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 1: every it is this the spring semester. It's like a

1273
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 1: cleanse it's like an intellectual spa day that you have

1274
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 1: because they're really you're one hundred percent right. I feel

1275
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 1: so much better. Every guest speaker I brought in will

1276
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 1: say to me, hey, thanks for that. It gave me

1277
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 1: a little bit of hope, you know. And what I

1278
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 1: love about USC is it it's as bipartisan of a

1279
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 1: campus as I've come across us. These are substantive.

1280
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 2: There's always uh, there's always questions there, and you always

1281
01:01:59,920 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 2: be sort of challenge. But it's not adversarial. It's not hostility.

1282
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 2: People just didn't explain that that's.

1283
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 1: And it's a very diverse student body. It's all sorts

1284
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 1: of a socioeconomic and all sorts of ways I want

1285
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 1: to leave. I've got a whole bunch of political memorabilia

1286
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,760
Speaker 1: on the back of my studio. Are you you You

1287
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 1: talk about being a memorabilia collector in your book. What

1288
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 1: are your what's your prized pieces? What do you still have?

1289
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 1: Do you still collect? I collect episodically.

1290
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not going out to meetings like I

1291
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 2: used to. But I'll tell you two things I've got

1292
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 2: that I think are really nice gems I have. Congressman

1293
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 2: William McKinley's Congressional handbook, The Embrassed Congressman William McKinley. He's

1294
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 2: my hometown guy for Canada Isle. So it's from his

1295
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 2: terms in Congress that his gross land book with his

1296
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 2: name and gold on cover. So that's a lovely, lovely item.

1297
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:52,280
Speaker 2: It's a nice look at and you go through and

1298
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:54,040
Speaker 2: look at other members of Congress and these all these

1299
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 2: Civil War heroes, I mean when he served, you know,

1300
01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:00,120
Speaker 2: sort of a golden moment of excellence and talent in

1301
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 2: the US Congress. So that's one item. The other item

1302
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 2: I've got is I've got the Chicago Daily News front

1303
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:11,480
Speaker 2: section Dewey defeats Truman, an actual, a real copy, that's

1304
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 2: the real copy in a Smithsonian quality product. It's fantastic

1305
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 2: to have that. So that's great, And I have that

1306
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,240
Speaker 2: on my wall in my home office. I'm here at

1307
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 2: USC today, but in my home office, I've got it.

1308
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 1: On my wall.

1309
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 2: And it's a lovely reminder that we're all mortal. Bad

1310
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 2: news can happen any place. Twist and turns happen at

1311
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:28,960
Speaker 2: any place, So pay attention. I did.

1312
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 1: I did a speaking engagement at the Union Club in Cleveland.

1313
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 1: They have about, They have the they have every pin

1314
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 1: from every governor that's run Further's it is. They have

1315
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 1: a tremendous little bit and nobody cares about it. It's

1316
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 1: like it's like stuffed to this little hallway, and I'm like,

1317
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 1: it is amazing. The next time you get to Cleveland,

1318
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:53,960
Speaker 1: I know you will. They have a terrific collection of

1319
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 1: just every Ohio politico and just like you just described,

1320
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 1: not some present dental pit of McKinley's, but like you know,

1321
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 1: the local office stuff. It's good stuff. That's very cool.

1322
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,479
Speaker 1: The book, it's a great read. And more importantly, it's

1323
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 1: not a you didn't like, load it up. It's not.

1324
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 1: It's not a PhD thesis on foreign affairs.

1325
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:19,640
Speaker 2: Keep it colorful, make a few points, keep it thematic

1326
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 2: as some insight, and tell them something they didn't know.

1327
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:26,240
Speaker 1: So that's it's worth your time. It's a Reagan biography

1328
01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:30,320
Speaker 1: written today, So there's you're using modern language and you're

1329
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 1: at least you know, and I think sometimes that can

1330
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 1: make history a bit more accessible. And I think you

1331
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 1: for anybody that's younger, for all my friends and family

1332
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 1: under thirty, I've got quite a few at least on

1333
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 1: the family side of things that are budding political junkies

1334
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 1: and are looking to understand Reagan. More, guys, this book

1335
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:48,800
Speaker 1: is a is a good read for you. And you

1336
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 1: know who I'm talking about. It's some of my nephews

1337
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 1: and cousins that that have listened there, mister Lavin. I

1338
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 1: always enjoy my time with you.

1339
01:04:56,920 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 2: It's a lot of fun. Check. I always learned a

1340
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:00,480
Speaker 2: lot talking to you. I'm glad we're both polling for

1341
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 2: the Trojans uh in some form or fashion, maybe just

1342
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 2: in the class.

1343
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:09,400
Speaker 1: Fight on my friend fight on Okay. Thanks so much,

1344
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:10,080
Speaker 1: Thanks Greg.

1345
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 2: Mm hmmmmmm