WEBVTT - One-on-One w Justice Clarence Thomas (Part 2) 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:03.670 Welcome back to this special edition of Verdict with Ted 0:00:03.730 --> 0:00:09.090 Cruz and my one-on-one conversation with Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. 0:00:10.090 --> 0:00:13.550 In part one, we explored the remarkable journey that shaped 0:00:13.610 --> 0:00:16.930 the man. Now we turn to the justice, his more 0:00:16.980 --> 0:00:20.299 than three decades on the Supreme Court, his approach to 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:25.400 the Constitution, and why he believes its protections belong not 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:29.080 to judges, not to law professors, but to every person. 0:00:29.540 --> 0:00:34.580 single American. Here's part two of my conversation with Justice 0:00:34.740 --> 0:00:44.610 Clarence Thomas. By any measure, one of your greatest legacies 0:00:44.650 --> 0:00:47.070 in the court, and there are many, but has been 0:00:47.130 --> 0:00:50.909 on race, and you have been a clarion voice in 0:00:50.950 --> 0:00:54.710 your entire tenure on the court for the principle that 0:00:54.750 --> 0:00:59.260 the Constitution is does not allow racial distinctions, does not 0:00:59.310 --> 0:01:04.240 allow racial discrimination. The Constitution is colorblind and protects everyone. 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:09.039 It's interesting as you tell the story or the analogy 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:10.940 of the library and then the stacks and the books 0:01:11.220 --> 0:01:14.200 that you might not be allowed to read. One story 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:16.480 you have told is as a young man, I think 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:20.150 in law school, somebody gave you a copy of a 0:01:20.170 --> 0:01:22.890 book by Thomas Sowell And you started to read it 0:01:22.910 --> 0:01:25.130 and threw it in the trash and said, if I 0:01:25.150 --> 0:01:27.330 remember right, that no black man can think this way. 0:01:27.370 --> 0:01:31.330 Yeah. That was Black Education, Myths and Tragedies, I think, 0:01:31.770 --> 0:01:36.130 one of his early books. And he laughs about it. Then, 0:01:36.170 --> 0:01:38.350 of course, he sent me a copy just to make 0:01:38.390 --> 0:01:43.030 sure I had it. But then in the after law school, 0:01:43.050 --> 0:01:46.950 I was working in Jeff City. It's one of those 0:01:47.010 --> 0:01:50.000 Hobson's choices. That's how I wound up there. The only 0:01:50.060 --> 0:01:52.820 job offer I had, but it was the best job 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:53.370 I've ever had. 0:01:53.380 --> 0:01:55.860 But all the fancy law firms wouldn't give you an offer. 0:01:55.910 --> 0:01:57.790 You came out of Yale Law School, did really well 0:01:57.850 --> 0:01:58.470 in law school. 0:01:58.530 --> 0:02:01.270 It didn't matter. And I always tell them now when 0:02:01.310 --> 0:02:04.390 I see them, they're the reason I'm on the court, 0:02:04.490 --> 0:02:07.510 because but for them, I'd be a tax lawyer someplace. 0:02:08.290 --> 0:02:11.430 And they woke now, but they were fast asleep when 0:02:11.490 --> 0:02:15.300 I got out of school. So anyway, God works in 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:17.880 mysterious ways. I wind up in Jeff City. 0:02:18.750 --> 0:02:21.610 So you're working for Jack Danforth, who is the attorney 0:02:21.650 --> 0:02:22.470 general in Missouri. 0:02:22.930 --> 0:02:24.329 Absolutely wonderful man. 0:02:24.610 --> 0:02:27.250 And your classmates were asking, what are you doing going 0:02:27.270 --> 0:02:28.510 to work for a Republican? 0:02:28.850 --> 0:02:29.130 Yeah. 0:02:29.169 --> 0:02:30.790 He was the only one who would give you a job. 0:02:30.830 --> 0:02:32.550 He was the only one who gave me a job. 0:02:32.590 --> 0:02:34.570 I mean, I had trouble with that. I mean, I 0:02:34.610 --> 0:02:38.250 was dying. Remember, I just voted for McGovern. Yeah. You know, 0:02:38.630 --> 0:02:40.630 and I thought he was too conservative. So you can 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:44.290 see ideologically where I was. But I go to work 0:02:44.330 --> 0:02:46.030 for him. Best job I've ever had. 0:02:46.250 --> 0:02:48.450 Well, and you said when you came in, you said, look, 0:02:48.730 --> 0:02:52.690 I don't want to work on matters of race. I 0:02:52.710 --> 0:02:54.930 don't want to be treated differently than anyone else. And 0:02:54.970 --> 0:02:57.190 you joked that he took you very seriously. 0:02:57.330 --> 0:02:58.350 He ignored all of us. 0:03:00.270 --> 0:03:01.770 But you loved that job. 0:03:01.850 --> 0:03:05.890 I loved it. It was the best job I've ever had. 0:03:05.889 --> 0:03:08.570 $ 11, 000 a year. And he promised. He said, I can 0:03:08.620 --> 0:03:11.060 give you more work for less money than anybody in 0:03:11.100 --> 0:03:14.120 the country. And that turned out to be a blessing. 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:18.460 But at any rate, that office, the way that he 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:24.710 ran that office was just wonderful, even-handed. One of the 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.010 people I met who became a very dear friend was 0:03:27.050 --> 0:03:32.950 a quadriplegic from West Point, Nebraska. And went to University 0:03:32.970 --> 0:03:37.840 of Missouri Law School, graduated, ordered the co-wife, but had 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:43.490 suffered from polio and was a quadriplegic. Just a very, very, 0:03:43.590 --> 0:03:46.250 very dear friend. He calls me up one day and 0:03:46.290 --> 0:03:49.530 he said, Clarence, there's another black guy out here like you. 0:03:50.350 --> 0:03:55.290 And his name is Thomas Sowell. And it was Thomas Sowell. 0:03:55.690 --> 0:03:58.450 And it was a book review in the Wall Street Journal. 0:03:58.870 --> 0:04:03.110 And it was on race and economics. And I obtained 0:04:03.190 --> 0:04:07.810 copies of that. And it became just sort of the 0:04:07.870 --> 0:04:13.940 beginning of the long journey. intellectual walk back of thinking 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:17.779 about these things. And I met him at Washington University 0:04:18.460 --> 0:04:21.120 on a panel with Ruth Bader Ginsburg when she was 0:04:21.180 --> 0:04:26.010 a professor in the late 70s. And then when I 0:04:26.070 --> 0:04:30.210 came here in 79, I think I met him again 0:04:30.230 --> 0:04:32.990 either in 79 or 80 when he was making the 0:04:33.070 --> 0:04:38.030 rounds with Hill staffers. And we've been friends since the 0:04:38.150 --> 0:04:38.460 early 1980s. 0:04:40.130 --> 0:04:42.850 By the way, for what it's worth, I'm urging the 0:04:42.890 --> 0:04:45.230 White House to award him the Presidential Medal of Freedom. 0:04:45.470 --> 0:04:48.150 I hope they do so. I've publicly called for that. 0:04:48.210 --> 0:04:50.360 I'm trying to make that happen because I think that 0:04:50.390 --> 0:04:52.080 would be very appropriate. 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:58.839 Well, I think it would be deserved. He is a great, 0:04:58.940 --> 0:05:01.219 great man and one of the great thinkers. 0:05:02.820 --> 0:05:05.320 I've never met him, but I've admired him. He's brilliant 0:05:05.380 --> 0:05:06.039 and courageous. 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:10.140 Well, he's courageous. He and I met him. I met 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:13.520 Walter Williams back then when I got here. 0:05:13.660 --> 0:05:15.140 I met Walter Williams when I was in high school. 0:05:15.420 --> 0:05:16.039 Is that right? 0:05:16.060 --> 0:05:19.620 Yeah, he was inspiring even when I was a kid. 0:05:19.740 --> 0:05:23.340 Brash, but he's... And there was another gentleman that you 0:05:23.380 --> 0:05:28.940 don't know that's also passed away, like Walter, who's on... 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:37.790 Dunn was also very quiet, but a libertarian and was very, 0:05:37.830 --> 0:05:43.390 very helpful. But anyway, the whole point is that in 0:05:43.450 --> 0:05:46.510 Jefferson City, again, I go back to what I said 0:05:46.550 --> 0:05:50.630 at the very beginning, that things that initially seem like 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:54.659 a negative, you know, you can't get a job, so 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.300 you wind up in Jefferson City, turn out to be 0:05:57.460 --> 0:06:01.210 a blessing. And what I say in retrospect is that 0:06:01.270 --> 0:06:04.190 God closed all the doors that I should not have 0:06:04.250 --> 0:06:08.140 gone through and left one door open, my Hobson's choice, 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:10.840 and turned out to be the best job I've ever had. 0:06:11.300 --> 0:06:12.780 All right, let me take a quick second. I want 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.040 to talk to you about how you can get involved 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:17.880 right now to help the people in Israel and the 0:06:17.990 --> 0:06:21.150 rising anti-Semitism that's happening not only in the U.S., but 0:06:21.170 --> 0:06:24.470 around the world every day. And the Jewish people continue 0:06:24.510 --> 0:06:27.500 to pay the price from growing threats against Jewish communities, 0:06:27.510 --> 0:06:32.320 attacks of violence, harassment and intimidation. Many Jewish families are 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:36.039 living with fear simply because they are Jewish. Synagogues, schools, 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:40.430 and community centers continue strengthening security as hatred spreads far 0:06:40.490 --> 0:06:43.740 beyond the headlines. And that's why the International Fellowship of 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:46.800 Christians and Jews is working every day in Israel and 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:51.340 around the world, providing security, emergency assistance, food, and critical 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:54.850 care for vulnerable Jewish communities. For more than 40 years, 0:06:54.950 --> 0:06:58.890 the fellowship has stood alongside the Jewish people, delivering practical 0:06:58.930 --> 0:07:02.350 support when it is needed the most. Hatred, it continues 0:07:02.370 --> 0:07:06.429 to spread, but compassion and action can make a world 0:07:06.470 --> 0:07:09.550 of difference. So I want you to join us. The 0:07:09.590 --> 0:07:12.850 International Fellowship of Christians and Jews and me in doing 0:07:12.970 --> 0:07:16.410 one simple thing, praying for the safety of the Jewish people, 0:07:16.830 --> 0:07:21.530 for peace in Israel, and for an end to anti-Semitism. Together, 0:07:21.590 --> 0:07:24.130 we can remind God's people that they are not alone. 0:07:24.650 --> 0:07:26.940 If you want to know what to pray for, you 0:07:26.980 --> 0:07:31.580 can stand with Israel in prayer today by visiting PrayIFCJ.org. 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:33.040 That is PrayIFCJ.org. 0:07:37.380 --> 0:07:40.140 Ultimately, you're in the AG's office. You go get a 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:43.560 job in corporate America at Monsanto, which paid you a 0:07:43.580 --> 0:07:46.280 good chunk of money but was not rewarding and you 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:50.370 were not happy with corporate America. And then Jack Danforth 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:51.970 has gone to the Senate and you go work for 0:07:52.030 --> 0:07:58.750 him in the Senate. And you're Capitol Hill staffer and 0:07:58.790 --> 0:08:01.630 you go to a conference with Thomas Sowell. 0:08:01.690 --> 0:08:05.750 Yeah, he invited me personally to that in San Francisco. 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:11.580 And at the time, you're a Republican staffer, but you're 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:13.000 on the journey. One of the things I try to 0:08:13.060 --> 0:08:17.270 do in the book is chronicle the intellectual journey and 0:08:18.330 --> 0:08:23.630 awakening from an angry left-wing radical to a principled conservative. 0:08:23.650 --> 0:08:28.290 That's a pretty big shift. And reading was an important 0:08:28.330 --> 0:08:30.790 part of it. Questioning was an important part of it. 0:08:31.410 --> 0:08:35.160 But you've described how you're sitting at, at a lunch 0:08:35.220 --> 0:08:38.840 table with, with Juan Williams, the reporter, having what you 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:44.050 thought was a conversation. And, and, uh, it was one 0:08:44.090 --> 0:08:46.910 of your first interactions with, with the press and, and 0:08:46.950 --> 0:08:50.729 it ended up having a big feature article in the 0:08:50.790 --> 0:08:54.510 Washington Post describing you as the black conservative, which, which 0:08:54.570 --> 0:08:57.350 was a pretty startling thing for you. 0:08:57.670 --> 0:09:01.890 Well, I'd never called myself conservative. I, I've, you know, the, um, 0:09:02.450 --> 0:09:05.309 That was a way of character. They called us black 0:09:05.350 --> 0:09:10.120 conservatives in order to dispose of us. They called Tom 0:09:10.179 --> 0:09:15.900 Sowell that, Walter Williams, Jay Parker, who was another dear friend, 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:22.290 has passed away. But I was shocked. Remember now, I'm 0:09:22.290 --> 0:09:25.250 32 years old. I'm a Hill staffer. I've never been 0:09:25.290 --> 0:09:28.160 in the press. I had just made my first trip 0:09:28.260 --> 0:09:29.340 to California. 0:09:29.660 --> 0:09:31.300 You got the inkling that there was going to be 0:09:31.340 --> 0:09:34.199 something on you when they sent a photographer to take 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:34.730 a picture. 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:37.809 I was sharing an office with three other staffers, and 0:09:37.830 --> 0:09:42.809 this photographer shows up from the post. And December 16, 1980, 0:09:42.809 --> 0:09:46.750 there's my smiling face on the op-ed page. And then 0:09:47.150 --> 0:09:52.550 my whole life changed. And the attacks, the negativity. 0:09:52.910 --> 0:09:54.320 And there is a nastiness. 0:09:54.540 --> 0:09:55.140 Ostracism. 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.630 As a black conservative that I don't think anyone else 0:09:59.740 --> 0:10:02.679 experiences you get some of it as an Hispanic who's 0:10:02.700 --> 0:10:04.760 a conservative because I'm not supposed to be a conservative 0:10:04.780 --> 0:10:07.140 but you're really not supposed to be a conservative and 0:10:07.380 --> 0:10:09.880 there's part of the reason I wanted to write the 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:14.020 book is the vitriol that has been directed at you 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:19.480 is different look Justice Scalia you knew him extremely well 0:10:19.540 --> 0:10:25.040 he was a brilliant, extraordinarily principled. He never had the 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:27.840 kind of hate directed to him that you did. And 0:10:27.900 --> 0:10:32.400 the left, they view you, a black man is not 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:36.900 allowed to think that way. You're a traitor. And there's 0:10:36.940 --> 0:10:38.230 an ugliness to that. 0:10:38.250 --> 0:10:42.030 Yeah, well, I mean, that's, you know, I grew up, again, 0:10:42.150 --> 0:10:45.510 I've been fortunate to have had misfortunes. And one of 0:10:45.530 --> 0:10:48.859 the things you learned during segregation is there was this 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.079 idea that, boy, don't you know your place. And that's 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:55.480 the same thing. I mean, these are the same, some 0:10:55.500 --> 0:10:58.970 of the worst people that you would meet, like the progressives. 0:11:00.010 --> 0:11:04.469 That's why I mentioned people like Woodrow Wilson, one of 0:11:04.510 --> 0:11:06.770 the early progressives. 0:11:07.550 --> 0:11:09.209 Who was a vicious racist. 0:11:09.290 --> 0:11:12.700 Yeah, but see, underneath that, and Paul Johnson makes the 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:16.350 point that you scratch the surface of things like the 0:11:16.450 --> 0:11:19.810 Marxists and the socialists. That's what you find because they 0:11:19.830 --> 0:11:23.929 have to categorize people. So I understand that. But I 0:11:24.530 --> 0:11:30.449 crossed that bridge in my early 30s that I accepted 0:11:30.470 --> 0:11:33.150 that this is the way they were going to treat me. 0:11:33.230 --> 0:11:36.229 This is what was going to happen. This is what 0:11:36.309 --> 0:11:41.069 would happen, and who knew where it would leave, but 0:11:41.130 --> 0:11:44.900 God would take care of that part. But the fact 0:11:44.940 --> 0:11:49.199 that they have all this vitriol, to me, is a 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:53.470 white flag that they have no argument. When you start calling.. 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:54.640 If they think you're wrong, persuade you. 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:58.500 Look, I'm open to reason, but I will not be 0:11:58.570 --> 0:12:03.110 told what to do. No one cajoles me, no one 0:12:03.700 --> 0:12:09.600 makes me do anything. Slavery is over. But there's this 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:13.980 sense that don't you know what you're supposed to think? 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:17.600 And that is with me, that is the wrong argument. 0:12:17.820 --> 0:12:20.580 Well, and related to that, one of the things that 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:25.420 you have really powerfully written and spoken about is with 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:31.369 affirmative action and racial quotas, it brings with it a stigma. 0:12:32.309 --> 0:12:36.250 You rather famously put a sticker of 15 cents on 0:12:36.290 --> 0:12:41.190 your Yale law degree from a cigar box because, and 0:12:41.210 --> 0:12:44.170 you talked about coming out of Yale, but not being 0:12:44.210 --> 0:12:48.209 able to get a job. And look, I went to 0:12:48.250 --> 0:12:50.309 school at a different time than you did, but I'll 0:12:50.350 --> 0:12:54.130 tell you, as an Hispanic, I still remember this one 0:12:54.620 --> 0:12:59.199 supercilious liberal in law school explaining that everyone who wasn't 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.300 a white man, was on the law review because of 0:13:01.350 --> 0:13:04.250 affirmative action. That was the only reason anyone could possibly 0:13:04.309 --> 0:13:08.590 do well is because they were giving us this gift. 0:13:09.210 --> 0:13:10.709 And it was infuriating. 0:13:11.550 --> 0:13:15.210 You know, I've heard, I've been, there are many, many 0:13:15.290 --> 0:13:20.390 slights along the way. But it doesn't make you wrong. 0:13:20.950 --> 0:13:24.690 These are little bumps in the road. And what I 0:13:24.730 --> 0:13:29.329 compare it to, again, I compare it to what My 0:13:29.390 --> 0:13:34.050 grandparents went through. Like, just take my grandfather. Yeah. If 0:13:34.090 --> 0:13:37.770 I'm going to complain, right, I have to look at him, 0:13:37.790 --> 0:13:45.500 at a man who didn't complain. He never knew his father. 0:13:45.510 --> 0:13:49.520 His mother dies when he's six or seven, maybe eight. 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:53.720 And then he goes to live with his grandmother, who's 0:13:53.780 --> 0:13:56.080 a freed slave who lives on a part of the 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:57.500 plantation that they're from. 0:13:59.059 --> 0:14:03.410 Just pause for a second and think about the marvel 0:14:04.070 --> 0:14:09.150 of America, that your grandfather who raised you was raised 0:14:09.210 --> 0:14:13.370 by his grandmother who was a freed slave. And now 0:14:13.929 --> 0:14:18.229 you are the second longest serving Supreme Court justice in 0:14:18.270 --> 0:14:21.000 American history and in a couple of years will be 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:27.990 the longest serving. That is– it's one of the things– Look, 0:14:28.090 --> 0:14:31.930 those who point to the flaws in our nation's history, 0:14:31.950 --> 0:14:34.970 they're not wrong. Our racial history in particular has been 0:14:34.990 --> 0:14:39.369 a history of injustice, and slavery was grotesque. But I 0:14:39.410 --> 0:14:43.870 agree with Dr. King that the arc of history is long, 0:14:43.910 --> 0:14:48.850 and it bends towards justice. And that journey was possible 0:14:48.930 --> 0:14:51.810 because of the principles America was built on, even if 0:14:52.130 --> 0:14:55.890 it took us decades and even centuries to begin living 0:14:55.970 --> 0:14:56.290 up to it. 0:14:56.790 --> 0:15:00.210 Well, you know, he always, my grandfather would talk about 0:15:00.290 --> 0:15:04.840 don't throw out the Ten Commandments because people don't obey them. 0:15:06.060 --> 0:15:09.380 There's nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments. It's just we 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:14.300 have weaknesses or for whatever reasons we don't comply. And 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:19.150 I think sometimes when you're angry and you see suffering 0:15:19.190 --> 0:15:23.170 and difficulties, you are willing to throw everything out, the 0:15:23.210 --> 0:15:28.810 baby with the bathwater. And as you get older, you 0:15:28.850 --> 0:15:32.030 can be more discerning. And one of the things I 0:15:32.070 --> 0:15:36.290 think that's unfortunate is that the people who should know 0:15:36.370 --> 0:15:41.360 better haven't stood up and defended those principles and asserted 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:43.860 them and then tried to live up to them and 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:49.160 not be hypocritical and not to sacrifice the principles for 0:15:49.180 --> 0:15:51.120 a share of the power, for a share of the 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.770 loot that they're getting from the country or whatever. And 0:15:55.030 --> 0:15:57.450 so one of the things that I tried to do 0:15:57.510 --> 0:16:01.050 when I was teasing out the speech at the University 0:16:01.070 --> 0:16:04.740 of Texas is to make this point. Two things that 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:07.860 I wanted to talk about was the fact that here 0:16:07.900 --> 0:16:14.840 you had uneducated people who believed that God made them equal. 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:23.060 And you had Irish nuns, immigrants, that believed strongly that 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:27.470 in God's eyes, we're all equal. And this was not 0:16:27.570 --> 0:16:33.790 to be debated. No matter what the laws around us said, 0:16:34.290 --> 0:16:38.270 this was not debatable. So now that means if there 0:16:38.290 --> 0:16:43.360 are Irish immigrants and uneducated people who have no formal 0:16:43.430 --> 0:16:47.560 education believe this, my point was simply that it must 0:16:47.620 --> 0:16:53.950 be self-evident. Otherwise, how else would they know? The other 0:16:54.010 --> 0:16:58.130 part of it that I was interested in is there 0:16:58.350 --> 0:17:02.540 are a lot of nice words in the Declaration, for example. 0:17:03.620 --> 0:17:07.040 But what do they pledge? Their lives, their fortune, and 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:11.400 their sacred honor. And this is after what the king says, 0:17:11.460 --> 0:17:12.480 I'm going to hang all of you. 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:13.880 And that was not theoretical. 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.800 No, no, I know it. He was not happy. But 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:20.359 at any rate, my point is if you end it 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:24.420 by saying, I'm willing to die for this. Now, that 0:17:24.500 --> 0:17:28.630 gives value to what you just said. In your wedding vows, 0:17:28.750 --> 0:17:31.450 you say, I do, and you mean it. You said 0:17:31.470 --> 0:17:33.090 you've been married, what, 29 years? 0:17:33.090 --> 0:17:33.699 25. 0:17:33.700 --> 0:17:38.850 25 years. So that gives content to your wedding vows. Yeah. 0:17:38.990 --> 0:17:43.689 When I said, I do, to my wife, that gives content. Otherwise, 0:17:43.710 --> 0:17:47.010 it's just nice words. And I think one of the things, 0:17:47.070 --> 0:17:50.130 and this goes back to my point about leaving the seminary, 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:54.219 Do you really mean it? Do you really believe as 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:57.940 a church what you said you believe? And it was 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:01.770 the gap between that, what you said, the church said, 0:18:02.070 --> 0:18:06.490 and what the leadership seemed to a 19-year-old to believe. 0:18:07.270 --> 0:18:10.639 And I think in this country now, think about it. 0:18:10.869 --> 0:18:15.870 When last have you had a leader that said something 0:18:15.950 --> 0:18:21.910 that is the equivalent I pledge my life, my property, 0:18:22.170 --> 0:18:24.119 my fortune, and my sacred honor. 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:29.200 So you referenced the speech you gave at University of Texas. 0:18:29.260 --> 0:18:32.020 I want to commend all the listeners here. Go and 0:18:32.100 --> 0:18:34.340 listen to that speech. It really was an extraordinary speech. 0:18:34.420 --> 0:18:37.460 I'm proud of UT. I spent a couple of years 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:41.300 on the faculty as an adjunct law professor there. And look, 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:44.359 most law schools are so left-wing. I'm proud of UT 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:46.550 for inviting you there. The president, Jim Davis, is a 0:18:46.570 --> 0:18:47.070 good friend. 0:18:47.180 --> 0:18:47.290 Yeah. 0:18:47.930 --> 0:18:51.250 Had you there, but it really is an important speech 0:18:51.430 --> 0:18:54.530 and conversation, and if folks haven't listened to it, they should. 0:18:55.850 --> 0:18:57.520 What I want to do in the interest of time, 0:18:58.340 --> 0:19:01.340 there are additional chapters in your life from being a 0:19:01.619 --> 0:19:04.159 Hill staffer to an assistant secretary of the Department of 0:19:04.220 --> 0:19:07.800 Education to the chairman of the EOC and the Reagan 0:19:07.820 --> 0:19:12.149 administration to a court of appeals judge on the D.C. 0:19:12.190 --> 0:19:13.989 Circuit to going through one. 0:19:16.030 --> 0:19:16.129 Of.. 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.080 If not the most brutal confirmation hearing of any justice. 0:19:20.100 --> 0:19:22.439 You and Brett Kavanaugh can arm wrestle for who had 0:19:22.460 --> 0:19:25.980 the rougher time, but in many ways, and I talk 0:19:26.020 --> 0:19:28.280 about this in the book, how what Justice Kavanaugh went 0:19:28.340 --> 0:19:32.600 through was a replay of the playbook that you were 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:37.100 subjected to. I want to skip over all of those periods, 0:19:37.580 --> 0:19:41.619 although I recount them in detail in the book. And 0:19:41.850 --> 0:19:47.679 I want to go to after you are confirmed. and 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:51.159 you're sworn in and you're in your early 40s and 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:57.310 suddenly you're a Supreme Court justice and your autobiography ends 0:19:57.369 --> 0:20:00.430 with your being a justice so it tells your life 0:20:00.470 --> 0:20:04.889 story but then does not cover your jurisprudence I want 0:20:04.910 --> 0:20:07.030 to start with just a human thing what's it like 0:20:08.150 --> 0:20:12.110 the first day you're a justice. You walk in, like 0:20:12.170 --> 0:20:14.490 just what's day one of being a Supreme Court justice? 0:20:15.210 --> 0:20:21.899 Well, you feel a little small. And like, what the 0:20:21.940 --> 0:20:26.140 heck am I doing here? Which is still a question. 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:33.380 But this is, you know, the, as I said, just 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:35.639 Lord grant me the wisdom to know what's right and 0:20:35.660 --> 0:20:39.820 the courage to do it. That has been a constant 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:45.340 plea of mine. And it is what brought me back 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:51.639 to the church, stopping at first St. Nicholas, then sometimes St. Mary's, 0:20:51.780 --> 0:20:56.140 and sometimes St. Joe, to just ask for the wisdom 0:20:56.220 --> 0:20:58.479 and to know what is right and the courage to 0:20:58.530 --> 0:21:04.670 do it. But you know, it is just the, you 0:21:04.730 --> 0:21:12.630 pledge to I gave President Bush my promise. I took 0:21:12.690 --> 0:21:16.459 an oath. He said, can you call him as you 0:21:16.500 --> 0:21:20.300 see him? He asked me that in Kennebunkport, July 1, 1991. 0:21:20.300 --> 0:21:24.720 I said, I can. And that's what I've lived up to. 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:28.550 My grandfather, when I asked him when I was being 0:21:28.609 --> 0:21:32.050 attacked in the early 80s, 1982, I said, what should 0:21:32.109 --> 0:21:33.990 I do? He said, boy, you got to stand up 0:21:34.010 --> 0:21:38.260 for what you believe in. It's pretty simple. And I 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:43.160 must say, I'm on the other side of that spectrum now, 0:21:43.859 --> 0:21:48.560 but I was treated royally, fabulously, by my new colleagues. 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:55.000 Your old boss, Chief Justice Rehnquist, Justice Scalia, Stevens, O'Connor, 0:21:55.420 --> 0:21:58.640 a great woman who doesn't get the credit she deserves, 0:21:59.060 --> 0:22:02.240 Justice Kennedy. And now I'm on the other side of 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:06.760 it where I have newer colleagues, wonderful teachers, And brilliant 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:11.480 young people like Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, you mentioned. We 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:17.920 have Amy Barrett. And then Sam Alito and I were 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:21.139 at Yale together. Just a wonderful, wonderful group. 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:22.639 You were classmates at Yale. 0:22:22.700 --> 0:22:23.500 He was a year behind. 0:22:23.540 --> 0:22:25.180 He was a year behind you, but you didn't know 0:22:25.220 --> 0:22:25.580 each other. 0:22:26.220 --> 0:22:29.420 He's a funny guy. He's brilliant. He was always nerdy. 0:22:29.770 --> 0:22:34.720 Princeton guy like you, right? Yeah. And so... I said, Sam, 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:37.020 how come we were there two years together? Why weren't 0:22:37.060 --> 0:22:44.330 we friends? Clarence, you were scary. I'm so glad they 0:22:44.369 --> 0:22:46.290 didn't have these phones where you could take a lot 0:22:46.330 --> 0:22:51.030 of pictures. I wore bib overalls throughout law school and 0:22:51.109 --> 0:22:56.510 combat boots. It was awful. But, you know, you have 0:22:56.570 --> 0:23:00.100 just the chief has been a good friend. But my 0:23:00.190 --> 0:23:05.670 point is simply this, that, you know, I was embraced there. 0:23:06.150 --> 0:23:09.090 It was a different generation. It's the World War II, 0:23:09.230 --> 0:23:15.859 Byron White. They were just wonderful people. They were very 0:23:15.930 --> 0:23:20.900 kind to me. You know, the courts changed a bit 0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:25.780 now since the Dobbs League. Back then there was a trust. Yes. 0:23:25.859 --> 0:23:29.899 There was an honor. Even as you disagreed, there were 0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:33.500 lines you did not cross, and I like that. These 0:23:33.580 --> 0:23:43.859 people were the age of my mother and older. And 0:23:44.660 --> 0:23:49.340 so it was a different era. And now it's a 0:23:49.380 --> 0:23:52.620 different generation now. But the point is that you have 0:23:53.060 --> 0:23:56.350 equally good people who are there. I mean, I loved, 0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:59.369 I knew some of them as law clerks. They've become 0:23:59.430 --> 0:24:02.580 very dear friends. And I hope to be a model 0:24:02.619 --> 0:24:06.290 to them as the older members of the court who 0:24:06.310 --> 0:24:08.610 were there when I arrived were to me. 0:24:09.530 --> 0:24:13.030 So of all the justices who have served on the court, 0:24:13.750 --> 0:24:18.010 I think you are the most willing to reconsider precedent 0:24:19.070 --> 0:24:23.520 and to think of an issue anew, which is in 0:24:23.580 --> 0:24:26.020 some ways to think about it as it was, in fact, 0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:27.520 in many ways to think of it as it was 0:24:27.580 --> 0:24:37.500 originally understood. Mm-hmm. and that, you know, your opinion writing is, 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:43.070 you write straightforward opinions in ordinary English. You don't tend 0:24:43.109 --> 0:24:47.590 to use fancy highfalutin words, but your opinions are written 0:24:47.710 --> 0:24:51.390 so that the regular person can read them and understand 0:24:51.450 --> 0:24:57.520 what you're saying, and I think there's a workmanship quality 0:24:57.600 --> 0:25:02.290 to your opinions. I analogize it to a farmer or 0:25:02.330 --> 0:25:05.850 someone building a home. And you draw that same analogy. 0:25:07.550 --> 0:25:09.750 Why do you think it is that you are the 0:25:09.890 --> 0:25:11.850 most willing to reconsider precedent? 0:25:12.890 --> 0:25:16.170 You know, I start with something you and I, I think, 0:25:16.190 --> 0:25:19.470