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Speaker 1: Novel, Hey listener. In this episode, there's mention of suicide, attempts, depression,

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Speaker 1: violence and control. There's also the story of Gail's life

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Speaker 1: full of friendship, curly hair, and the romance of youth.

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Speaker 1: Probably a few swears too, so, as they say in

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Speaker 1: the South, Sorry, y'all.

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Speaker 2: If you do.

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Speaker 1: Listen and are impacted by any of our themes, you

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Speaker 1: can reach out to No More, a domestic violence charity

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Speaker 1: we've partnered with. They have lots of great resources to help.

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Speaker 2: You or your loved ones.

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Speaker 1: You can find them at no More dot org. That's

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Speaker 1: no More dot org.

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Speaker 3: A baby photos.

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Speaker 4: That you that's us too, and Gail No, and Gail

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Speaker 4: And I was with her when we took this one.

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Speaker 4: You know you get from J. C. Penny these like

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Speaker 4: little things come here for a free photo. And she

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Speaker 4: made me gun with her and we took the photo.

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Speaker 4: And that's her beloved cat. Here's more care free Gails

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Speaker 4: before she met and married Bob. And here's Bob. And

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Speaker 4: here's Gail and Bob. Does she look happy? No, I'm

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Speaker 4: Alaine Katz, I'm Gail's sister.

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Speaker 2: I'm Carol Fisher.

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Speaker 1: And from the teams that and our Heart Radio you're

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Speaker 1: listening to The Girlfriends episode three, Bubbly, Bouncy and Very

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Speaker 1: Alive You. A few days before Christmas in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 1: my producer Anna visited Elaine in Westchester County, New York.

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Speaker 1: Lane had just moved houses the day before, this beautiful

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Speaker 1: wood paneled home which looked out over the Hudson River.

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Speaker 1: They sat around the kitchen table for two days, drinking

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Speaker 1: wine out of plastic cups pulled from cardboard boxes. I

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Speaker 1: wish I could have been there, though I'll admit I

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Speaker 1: would have been nervous. I worried a lot about how

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Speaker 1: Elaine would perceive me as a member of a lady

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Speaker 1: social club that had turned her sister's disappearance into gossip.

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Speaker 1: I would hate for her to think we made light

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Speaker 1: of the hardest moment of her life. But I'm really

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Speaker 1: ready to learn about Gail and to show all of

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Speaker 1: you who she was, because I never got that chance

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Speaker 1: when I first stumbled into this story. If you look

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Speaker 1: at some of those old photos of their family, it's

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Speaker 1: clear how similar Elaine and Gail look. They weren't even

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Speaker 1: two years apart.

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Speaker 4: One of our favorite sayings is Gail and I were

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Speaker 4: the opposite side of the same coin. We were very different,

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Speaker 4: but it was because we were responding to the same

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Speaker 4: stimuli in an opposite way, so we were very close.

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Speaker 4: Early in our lives, we lived in Brooklyn and there

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Speaker 4: was a school at the end of our block, and

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Speaker 4: the kids would get out, and I'd find this impossible

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Speaker 4: when I think back on it. They would go wild

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Speaker 4: and they would like sometimes start fights with us. Gail

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Speaker 4: was a protector then, but then she became fragile. She

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Speaker 4: had psychosomatic asthma, like when she got anxious, she couldn't breathe.

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Speaker 4: And I remember we would be in school and you know,

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Speaker 4: they had those public announcements, you know, Laine cats come

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Speaker 4: to the nurse's office, and there my sister would be

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Speaker 4: breathing with you know, a bag over her nose, and

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Speaker 4: I would be called down there to hold her hand

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Speaker 4: and calm her down. So there was like a role reversal.

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Speaker 4: Although she was older than me, she had become highly

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Speaker 4: emotion and fragile.

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Speaker 1: Elaine, Gail, their younger brother Stephen, and their parents, Sylvia

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Speaker 1: and Manny, moved to belmore Long Island in nineteen sixty four.

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Speaker 1: It's where the girls lived out their teenage years.

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Speaker 5: There was a lot of noise in our families. When

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Speaker 5: we got together. It was always lots of loud discussions.

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Speaker 5: I think partly the Jewish families. Lots of debating always

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Speaker 5: went on.

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Speaker 2: This is Abby Bruce, Gail and Elaine's cousin.

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Speaker 5: We were having a passover or Thanksgiving or something all together,

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Speaker 5: and there was a lot of tension going on between

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Speaker 5: my mother and my uncle. I forget what was going on,

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Speaker 5: but I remember it being tense, and Gail went over

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Speaker 5: and sat down at the piano and started playing the piano.

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Speaker 5: It completely diffused the situation. She was young, we were probably,

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Speaker 5: you know, fourteen or fifteen at the time. I remember

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Speaker 5: watching her hands on the piano and thinking she has

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Speaker 5: such beautiful hands.

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Speaker 4: I would say I was into boys. Gail was into love.

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Speaker 4: There's a difference. I'm not saying that Gail was boy crazy.

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Speaker 4: I was boy crazy. Gail was love crazy. Gail was

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Speaker 4: engaged like twice before she graduated high school and Saturday.

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Speaker 6: Gail had a way about her that she would attract

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Speaker 6: a lot of attention. We were very popular in school,

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Speaker 6: and we were in the popular crowd.

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Speaker 1: This is Gail's best friend from high school Denise Cassenbaum.

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Speaker 1: If you look through gail high school yearbook, you'll find

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Speaker 1: Denise and Gail on the same page. They look like

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Speaker 1: they could have been plucked right out of woodstock. Denise

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Speaker 1: has an air of a young barbistreisam with long, straight

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Speaker 1: Joni Mitchell hair, while Gail's rocking more of a young

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Speaker 1: share look with their curly dark hair, flat iron long

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Speaker 1: and cut to one length, pure flower power. They met

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Speaker 1: when Gail was bumped up a year after excelling at

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Speaker 1: her studies. While they weren't at school, they were having

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Speaker 1: lots of fun doing all the things us girls did

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Speaker 1: back in the seventies.

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Speaker 6: I remember being at her house and we'd go up

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Speaker 6: to her room and we'd listen to Neil Young, Crosby

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Speaker 6: Stills and Nish and Neil Young. That was our favorite.

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Speaker 6: And she was the first person who I went to

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Speaker 6: New York City with. We were only fourteen, and our

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Speaker 6: parents let us go into Manhattan on the train and

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Speaker 6: we went down to Crenwich Village and we walked around.

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Speaker 6: We met boys we thought were so cool.

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Speaker 1: Gail graduated at seventeen and followed her high school boyfriend

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Speaker 1: David out to Albany in upstate New York. She was

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Speaker 1: convinced he was the love of her life, but they

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Speaker 1: broke up within a year or so. A few more

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Speaker 1: unsuccessful relationships later, and Gail was single again, but this

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Speaker 1: time she was stuck in Albany for no good reason.

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Speaker 1: She made a plan to enroll in the school in

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Speaker 1: Colorado in the fall, but decided to stick around for

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Speaker 1: one more summer.

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Speaker 4: During that summer, she met John fell in love head

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Speaker 4: over heels. They had this durable apartment facing the public square,

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Speaker 4: decorated it completely like you new hippie style. She was

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Speaker 4: completely vegetarian. She had, you know, a zillion cats in

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Speaker 4: the apartment. He was a struggling artist, and every now

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Speaker 4: and then, because they really couldn't pay the rent, they

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Speaker 4: would go. They would tell some local club that the

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Speaker 4: name of their band was rent. They would play a

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Speaker 4: few gigs, they would cover whatever crap somebody wanted them

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Speaker 4: to cover. They would raise enough money for the rent,

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Speaker 4: then they would stop.

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Speaker 1: When his band, called Odd spelt Ode, weren't trying to

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Speaker 1: pay the rent. They were writing and performing in avant

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Speaker 1: garde rock opera. If you don't believe me, here it

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Speaker 1: is John's on the.

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Speaker 2: Keys an escalator raising side.

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Speaker 7: The farm in heaven my land, I saw the heart

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Speaker 7: of man in the old order moved, touching hands as

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Speaker 7: they walked on all the treasure will share with love

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Speaker 7: for every woman.

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Speaker 2: Ah the seventies founder.

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Speaker 4: Unfortunately, she was the daughter of professional, educated Jewish people

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Speaker 4: and our tribe doesn't really believe in rock music as

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Speaker 4: a career, and she was getting a lot of flack

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Speaker 4: from her parents.

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Speaker 2: Her mother was very overbearing as a mother. Here's Gail's

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Speaker 2: cousin Abby again, and she had very high expectations of

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Speaker 2: the kids. So Elaine did what Sylvia thought she should do,

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Speaker 2: and that was go be a lawyer, because you're really smart.

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Speaker 2: Gail didn't want to do any of that kind of thing.

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Speaker 5: She was a bit of a free spirit, and that

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Speaker 5: was really hard for her mother.

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Speaker 4: I think she started to feel like they had to succeed.

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Speaker 1: Gail moved down to New York City, where she enrolled

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Speaker 1: in a dance therapy program and started fronting the band

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Speaker 1: to music producers, and.

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Speaker 4: She even got a job as a cocktail waitress at

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Speaker 4: Tracts Trax, which was one of the hottest rock clubs

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Speaker 4: in the city.

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Speaker 2: I think Gail and I would have been fast friends.

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Speaker 1: I swooned over my fair share of rock stars, too,

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Speaker 1: starting with The Monkeys as a young girl and.

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Speaker 2: Later Eric Clapton and Mick Fleetwood.

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Speaker 1: Rock and roll musicians represented everything opposite from an overbearing.

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Speaker 2: Jewish mother, and rushing on them felt like a certain

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Speaker 2: kind of freedom.

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Speaker 1: So I totally understand why Gail wanted it to work

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Speaker 1: with John. I wanted a guy like him too. At tracks,

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Speaker 1: Gail met big name producers and record label and our guys.

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Speaker 2: She even got friendly with Cindy.

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Speaker 1: Lauper, but no one was really biting at her rock

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Speaker 1: opera offering.

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Speaker 2: It was pretty lonely.

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Speaker 1: Sitting in her Manhattan apartment, Gail would write John poems

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Speaker 1: describing how much she missed him. Here's Elaine reading one

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Speaker 1: of them.

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Speaker 4: It is a poem of loneliness about which I write words, thoughts,

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Speaker 4: and images seemed to come best to me in the

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Speaker 4: dead of the night. Alone, I am in my own

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Speaker 4: quiet room, hoping that this feeling will go away soon.

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Speaker 4: I close my eyes and wash Sure here to help

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Speaker 4: and love me and calm my fears. But you and

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Speaker 4: I have things we must do to grow and to learn,

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Speaker 4: to make our dreams come true. I cannot touch you

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Speaker 4: and hear you say all of the comforting words you

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Speaker 4: always know to help me up when I fall too low,

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Speaker 4: And so I'll sing my song of loneliness until you

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Speaker 4: come to me with the internal kiss.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy nine, John moved to Manhattan to be

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Speaker 1: with Gail, but their free flowing upstate love didn't thrive

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Speaker 1: for long in the big city. They split after a

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Speaker 1: year or so. Around the same time, Gail suffered from

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Speaker 1: an elbow injury that pulled her out of her dance

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Speaker 1: therapy program within just a few months. She felt lost

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Speaker 1: and aimless.

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Speaker 4: Gail kicked around the city, you know, working a train,

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Speaker 4: dating guys that she shouldn't have been dating in the

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Speaker 4: music industry, and uh she unfortunately had a suicide attempt

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Speaker 4: and ended up in the hospital Saint Vincent's I don't

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Speaker 4: think it was a real suicide attempt. She picked the

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Speaker 4: night to try a suicide attempt when I was meeting

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Speaker 4: her attracts, so she knew that I would get to

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Speaker 4: tracks she wouldn't be there. Ultimately, she was in and

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Speaker 4: out of the hospital, and I somehow convinced her to

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Speaker 4: move into my apartment in eastern Long Island, and she

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Speaker 4: lived with me briefly out there, but not surprisingly, she

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Speaker 4: didn't want to live out there, and I wangled out

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Speaker 4: of my graduate school an internship in the city, and

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Speaker 4: the two of us moved into the city and we

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Speaker 4: lived together in the city. So, yes, my sister had

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Speaker 4: a cry depression. I have chronic anxiety, and quite frankly,

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Speaker 4: anxiety and depression are on a continuum spectrum. As I said,

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Speaker 4: opposite sides of the same corn.

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Speaker 1: It's never easy hearing about someone reaching a point so

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Speaker 1: low that they try to end their lives. I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine what Gail must have felt to find herself there.

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Speaker 1: What I have learned from listening to Elaine is that

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Speaker 1: depression was a lifelong affliction for Gail. But by the

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Speaker 1: summer in nineteen eighty, after Gail's hospitalization, she was doing

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Speaker 1: a lot better, well enough that she wanted to start

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Speaker 1: dating again, so her friend Diane invited her over for

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Speaker 1: a summer barbecue with the promise of vegetarian options and

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Speaker 1: a young man to meet.

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Speaker 4: Diane was living in New Jersey with her then doctor

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Speaker 4: husband and invited Gail over with the intention of a

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Speaker 4: sort of blind date. Fixed up with doctor Bob, and

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Speaker 4: they really headed off.

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Speaker 6: She was enamored doctor surgeon Pilot.

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Speaker 4: One night took her and I think it was Valentine's Day,

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Speaker 4: flying all over the bridges of Manhattan at night.

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Speaker 6: She said it was very romantic. I mean, why wouldn't

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Speaker 6: it be.

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Speaker 2: He whined and dined and.

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Speaker 4: Took her up to his East Side high in the

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Speaker 4: sky apartment with beautiful views of the East River. And

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Speaker 4: he took her out to his idyllic family's home in

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Speaker 4: West Orange, New Jersey, where his doctor, sister, doctor brother

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Speaker 4: in law. We're visiting with their son. The mother, I

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Speaker 4: think was a psychologist, something that Gail always had an

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Speaker 4: interest in. It seemed perfect to her.

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Speaker 5: But in terms of the difference between those two guys,

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Speaker 5: completely opposite ends of the spectrum.

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Speaker 2: John was a musician.

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Speaker 5: He could sit around for hours and play his guitar

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Speaker 5: and it was calm, and.

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Speaker 2: How was different.

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Speaker 5: There was a lot of excitement, a lot of we

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Speaker 5: did this, we did that. He was bigger than life.

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Speaker 5: I think she was just overwhelmed with Wow, this is amazing.

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Speaker 2: And you couldn't blame her. We all thought it was too.

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Speaker 1: Everyone was hearing about the wonderful new man in Gail's life.

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Speaker 2: Even her hairdresser.

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Speaker 8: My name is we Dodd. I am the curl experts

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Speaker 8: started the Curly Hair in the country back in nineteen

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Speaker 8: eighty four of the first salon for curls. Gail Katz

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Speaker 8: was a client, a regular client, regular basis. She was

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Speaker 8: ecstatic when she first saw what her hair can do

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Speaker 8: for her. Was bouncy, and she was having a good

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Speaker 8: time with her and it literally reflected her personality. Bubbly, bouncy,

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Speaker 8: very alive. That's the Gail that I knew. We were

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Speaker 8: all talking about boyfriends, and she had met this doctor

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Speaker 8: and she was very excited about it. And I remember

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Speaker 8: it was around Thanksgiving and that she was dreading going Thanksgiving,

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Speaker 8: but she might be introducing Bob to her family.

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Speaker 1: At that time, I imagine Gail would have been excited

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Speaker 1: about introducing her new bow to the family. He was

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Speaker 1: exactly what her mother wanted for her. Boy do I

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Speaker 1: know that feeling.

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Speaker 2: Sylvia was beside herself. He's a doctor.

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Speaker 5: He's a doctor.

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Speaker 2: That's all she talked about. And I don't think she

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Speaker 2: meant it in a bad way. I really don't. A

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Speaker 2: typical Jewish.

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Speaker 5: Mother from a long island stream for their child. I

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Speaker 5: think she wanted Gail to be taken care of, and

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Speaker 5: this was the answer to what she thought was the

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Speaker 5: best thing that could happen.

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Speaker 1: And Bob took care of literally everything.

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Speaker 4: Gail would tell me she would go to turn on

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Speaker 4: a light, and he would with one hand hold her

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Speaker 4: hand and with the other hand turn the light on. Now,

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Speaker 4: it might have looked like he was helping her, but

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Speaker 4: who needs help turning on a light? He was controlling everything.

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Speaker 1: One evening early on, Elaine and her boyfriend Larry went

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Speaker 1: out for sushi with Gail and.

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Speaker 4: Bob, and Bob was with his chopsticks picking up food

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Speaker 4: and putting it in Gail's mouth. He was feeding her,

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Speaker 4: and then he started feeding me. He was telling Larry

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Speaker 4: I own both of them. It was so strange.

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Speaker 1: From that moment on, Elane started noticing things about Bob

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Speaker 1: that made her uncomfortable. First it was just the way

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00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 1: he stood out and his front beclothed when they went

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Speaker 1: dancing at.

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Speaker 2: Studio fifty four.

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Speaker 1: Then the fact he'd make up bizarre lies, like saying

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Speaker 1: he went to a trendy pizza place all the time,

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Speaker 1: and then not knowing which neighborhood.

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Speaker 8: It was in.

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Speaker 4: It was such an innocuous and dumb lie, like, no,

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Speaker 4: Pebby's pizza isn't there. And you know, he's so bright

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Speaker 4: that you had to be really smart to catch him

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Speaker 4: in all his lies. But that wasn't so hard for Larry.

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Speaker 4: Larry was yell undergrad, Harvard Grad. Larry was smarter than Bob.

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Speaker 4: And Bob would say something, Larry would turn his head

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Speaker 4: and look at me and roll his eyes, and I

301
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Speaker 4: knew that was, you know, code for not true.

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Speaker 2: Worst of all was how Bob was trying to change Gail.

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00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,840
Speaker 4: Gail couldn't change two things that Bob required of her.

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00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,399
Speaker 4: He wanted her to be taller, and he claimed that

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Speaker 4: she had a Brooklyn accent. She was five two, she

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00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,680
Speaker 4: wasn't tall, So there was this constant You're not good

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Speaker 4: enough for me, Get thinner, get taller, don't wear you know,

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Speaker 4: sexy clothes. I'll never forget seeing her. And she was

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00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 4: dressed so dowdy. She looked like she was from some

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Speaker 4: religious sect. We very quickly began to realize Larry and

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Speaker 4: I what a sick fuck Bob was.

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Speaker 1: The Fact is Gail was in love and she wanted

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Speaker 1: it to work out with Bob, just like I had

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Speaker 1: no amount of side eye from Elaine was going to

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Speaker 1: convince her otherwise. After around a year of dating, Gail

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Speaker 1: and Bob got engaged, and with Elaine liked it or not,

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Speaker 1: she was plunged into the role of maid of honor.

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Speaker 1: They started planning the wedding, picking out food, scouring wedding

319
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Speaker 1: dress shops, visiting venues, combing through Bloomingdale's.

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Speaker 4: Hated Bloomingdales is way too big. I have no idea

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00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 4: where anything is in Bloomingdale's. But we went to Bloomingdale's

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00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 4: looking at dishes and linens and towels and doing the

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Speaker 4: whole gift registry thing.

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Speaker 1: During a haircut, she told we did the news and

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Speaker 1: asked if she'd come up to Long Island to do

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Speaker 1: everyone's hair and makeup before the ceremony. No expense is spared.

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Speaker 1: Gail seems so excited.

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Speaker 8: You know, I'm in New York with a lot of clients,

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Speaker 8: So for me to have a Jewish girl marrying a

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Speaker 8: doctor's perfect. That's what they all want. Another Jewish girl

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Speaker 8: marrying a doctor. How happy, how fabulous.

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Speaker 1: Then one night, about a month before the wedding, Elaine

333
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Speaker 1: got a frantic call.

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Speaker 4: My sister calls me hysterical, and she said, you have

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Speaker 4: to come get me in the morning. And like, I

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00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 4: wasn't so happy about this marriage, and this sounds good

337
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Speaker 4: to me. I'll come get you in the morning. I

338
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 4: go into the city and I drive up to her

339
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Speaker 4: apartment and she comes out holding her cat, no luggage,

340
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Speaker 4: no nothing, just the cat, and she's weeping, and I'm like,

341
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Speaker 4: what's up. And she said, Bob tried to kill the cat.

342
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Speaker 4: And she tells me that she was in the bedroom

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Speaker 4: she heard the cat making a funny noise. She goes

344
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Speaker 4: into the bathroom and there Bob is with the cat's

345
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Speaker 4: head in the toilet, drowning the cat, and she of

346
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Speaker 4: course saves the cat. And she says he was jealous

347
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Speaker 4: of the cat. He thinks I love the cat more

348
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Speaker 4: than I love him. So I'm going to prove to

349
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Speaker 4: him how much I love him. I'm going to get

350
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 4: rid of the cat. And I of course responded, I

351
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 4: have a good idea. Let's keep the cat and get

352
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Speaker 4: rid of Bob.

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Speaker 1: While this alleged drowning was never reported to the police,

354
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Speaker 1: it raised alarm bells among Gail's family.

355
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Speaker 2: I remember thinking this is so weird. Why would anybody

356
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 2: do something like that. Here's Gail's cousin Abby again, and I.

357
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Speaker 5: Think I remember having a conversation with my mother about it,

358
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 5: and my mother saying, you know, maybe it's not exactly

359
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 5: the way we hear it went. You know, it was

360
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 5: the typical deny that it could really be as bad

361
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 5: as it was. So I remember thinking, Okay, maybe it wasn't.

362
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 5: We were planning a wedding, so why were we planning

363
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 5: a wedding if this was so terrible. When I think

364
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 5: back now, I'm like, oh my god, what planet was

365
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 5: I on?

366
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 2: Sorry?

367
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 5: I didn't think it would made me cry.

368
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: Gail did get rid of the cat astray she rescued

369
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 1: from Caldwood Airport after she found it roaming the strip.

370
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: It was named Amelia. A month later, on the morning

371
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 1: of August twenty ninth, nineteen eighty two, Gail and Bob

372
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 1: woke up in separate beds, Gail at her parents' house

373
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Speaker 1: in Long Island and Bob in their apartment.

374
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 2: They're getting married, the poem.

375
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 4: By Gail dats today. I feel like pleasing you more

376
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 4: than before. To be living for you is all I

377
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 4: want to do. To be loving you. It will all

378
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 4: be there. Everything you want. I swear it all will

379
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 4: come true. Today I can't use words. They don't say enough.

380
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 4: Please please listen to me. It's taken so long to

381
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 4: come true, so long for you, all for you.

382
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: There are so many reasons we choose to get married.

383
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: It sounds unromantic, but it's not always just about love.

384
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 1: We get married for security, both financial and physical. We

385
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: get married because of family pressure. We get married because

386
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: our friends are doing it too. I can't say why

387
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: Gail decided to marry Bob. I suspect she recognized in

388
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 1: him a life she wanted, financial security and a husband

389
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: her parents would be proud of. But for her sister Elaine,

390
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: it felt wrong. She'd been dragged around every wedding dress

391
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: shop in Manhattan, only to find that Gail had decided

392
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: to wear Bob's mother's dress.

393
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 4: I can tell you for a fact it was not

394
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 4: at all like what I thought she was going to buy.

395
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 4: And again, I think this was about pleasing Bob.

396
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: It was the most obvious start to a marriage of compromise.

397
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: Early in the morning on the wedding day, we DoD

398
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: and her husband Peter, arrived at Gil's parents' home to

399
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: start fixing everybody's hair and makeup.

400
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 8: The door was open. I just dragged the belt, I said,

401
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 8: come in. I walked in. Peter was with me, and

402
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 8: we walked through the hallway into the kitchen and there

403
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 8: was an argument going on with her mother, her sister,

404
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 8: and Gail. It was squeaming, but you see many things

405
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 8: as a hairdresser, so that's not shocking. It's like, all right,

406
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 8: how do we manage this? How do we get rid

407
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 8: of these two to try to do the bride? Calm

408
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 8: it down, get her ready and get out. And the

409
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 8: mother and the sister. I asked them if they'd mind leaving,

410
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 8: and they said, in a minute, we need to finish

411
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 8: this and you can come right back. And so I said, okay.

412
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 8: I turned around and I said to Peter Grestarving, we'll

413
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 8: have a cup of coffee and a bagel or something

414
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 8: and then we'll wait for them, and then I'll go

415
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 8: in and I'll do it. So we go outside, we're

416
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 8: looking at each other and he said, this is odd.

417
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 8: I'm like, I know, it's really strange. I went back in.

418
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 8: The argument, I guess resolved, and I went and did

419
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 8: Gale's hair. I was in her room, we were doing

420
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 8: her hair, and she was just upset, very very upset.

421
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 8: She wanted it to be the way she wanted it.

422
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 8: And she doesn't care what her mother says. She doesn't

423
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 8: care what they say. She had I believe I don't

424
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 8: know who's veil, but she didn't care how it was

425
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 8: put on. She was just just get me done and

426
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 8: get me on here. I don't care what the hell

427
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 8: I look like. It was just a strange experience.

428
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: Nobody can fully remember what the argument was about. We

429
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: Dodd says she thinks she heard Bob's name being thrown about.

430
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: Elaine remembers it being tense because a flower crown Gail

431
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,719
Speaker 1: ordered turned out to look more Christmas wreath than Stevie Nicks.

432
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: The only thing I'm sure of, it's not the wedding

433
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: morning Gail would have dreamt of. She put on a

434
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,959
Speaker 1: brave face and headed into Manhattan wearing a modified flower

435
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: crown and her modified mother in law's dress.

436
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 5: She looks so beautiful, and I don't know if you've

437
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 5: seen pictures of their wedding, she was beautiful.

438
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 4: Bob wore a white linen suit, which is a little

439
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 4: odd and he sort of matched Gail.

440
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: After a traditional service at a temple in Manhattan, everyone

441
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: moved on to the party at a stylish penthouse restaurant

442
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: called Terrace in the Sky, overlooking the grounds of the

443
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: Columbia University campus. From up there, you could see panoramic

444
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: views across northern Manhattan.

445
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 4: There were two rooms at the Terrace, and she had

446
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 4: her friends and me in one room, and she had

447
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 4: everyone else in the other room.

448
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: The venue boasted a wine list of over three hundred bottles,

449
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: and the chef prepared dishes like smoked salmon and caviaar

450
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: lobster bealute, and duck confee.

451
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 4: She arranged for she and I to be served a

452
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 4: better champagne than anyone else. We had special Champagne Galeni.

453
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 5: It was really fine.

454
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 2: We danced and it was a happy day. It seemed

455
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 2: like it was a happy day.

456
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 5: I didn't end the day thinking this is the beginning

457
00:30:53,880 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 5: of the end in any way.

458
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: After the wedding, Bob and Gail went on a honeymoon Decrete,

459
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: and judging from their photos, it looked like a beautiful trip.

460
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: But something changed. When Gail got home.

461
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 8: After the marriage, her energy was not there. She was

462
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 8: a little bit more subdued. Not talking about clubs, not

463
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 8: talking about museums, not talking about anything, just very very quiet,

464
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 8: just wanted her hair done. No conversation asked to a

465
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 8: desire of what she would like this time, it was

466
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 8: just whatever you think, very passive.

467
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: At this point, Bob was working one hundred and twenty

468
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: hour weeks on a three hospital rotation and Gail was

469
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: studying psychology at grad school.

470
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 2: He was exhausted and she felt neglected.

471
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 4: She was the most lonely wife imaginable. She was completely ignored.

472
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 4: He came home like some fourteen year old before they

473
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 4: were real video games and played on his computer. He

474
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 4: was either doing his internship and working or home and

475
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 4: playing on his computer. Unless he had some infantile need

476
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 4: that he needed satisfied, he ignored her.

477
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 6: The incident which really turned my head around about him

478
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 6: was my thirtieth birthday.

479
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: By this is Gail's friend Denise.

480
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 6: I mean, who makes their wife have to sit on

481
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,959
Speaker 6: his lap to eat dinner and feed her? It was

482
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 6: just so strange. That was the first time that I

483
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 6: really started to think this is not kosher.

484
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: Elaine says that by nineteen eighty four, Gail started having

485
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: an affair with the finance guy named Anthony Sagalis. They'd

486
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: hang out at each other's apartments while Bob was at work.

487
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: They would party, they would sleep together. Then there was

488
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,719
Speaker 1: also Kenneth Feiner, a professor who Gaile met on the

489
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: subway after he spotted her reading a psychology article. He

490
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: always insisted it was a meeting of the minds rather

491
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: than a sexual thing. It's hard to know if Gail

492
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: was just distracting herself or trying to line up her

493
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: next relationship before breaking things off with Bob, but the

494
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: fact is she was unfaithful.

495
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 2: She needed that kind of validation from a man.

496
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 5: So did her mother. Her mother promoted that having a

497
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 5: man in your life made you complete, and without that.

498
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: You weren't.

499
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: On November ninth, nineteen eighty three, the day before Gail's

500
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: graduate record exams, she was studying at home.

501
00:33:55,520 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 4: She was feeling nervous, and Bob had gone to work.

502
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 4: She figured he was doing it, you know, his usual residency,

503
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 4: long shift. She thought he wouldn't catch her smoking. And

504
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:13,720
Speaker 4: he came home and he saw her smoking, and between

505
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 4: the front door and the balcony of their apartment there

506
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,479
Speaker 4: was a couch, and as she tells me, he came

507
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 4: running in, leaped over the couch. I mean, it's not

508
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 4: a six foot hurdle, it's just a couch, pushed her

509
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 4: down with his hands around her throat and strangled her.

510
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 4: But of course he did what all men do after

511
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 4: they've got their anger out. Oh, I'm so sorry, And

512
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 4: I told her there has to be a report of this,

513
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 4: you know, go to the police station and make a report,

514
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,919
Speaker 4: and she did, which, by the way, is amazing. I mean,

515
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 4: that was attempted murder.

516
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 2: In the report made to the police.

517
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: A few days after, Gail described to the desk clerk

518
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 1: how Bob strangled her to the point of losing consciousness,

519
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: but the police never followed it up with Gail, so

520
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: instead she tried to fix her crumbling marriage herself.

521
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 4: She told me how sorry he was, and he was

522
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 4: going to get therapy and everything was going to be okay,

523
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 4: just like after he strangled the cat.

524
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 5: She went and stayed at my grandfather's in Brooklyn. I

525
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 5: remember my mother being very upset, furious at him. I

526
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 5: think my grandfather. I think my grandfather told her that

527
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 5: she needed to work it out. I don't think she

528
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 5: told my grandfather about the strangling part, and then she

529
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 5: went back home. That was the beginning of the end

530
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 5: for a Lane. She didn't want her around him anymore.

531
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 5: She did everything she could to get her out of there,

532
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 5: begged her to come stay with her, begged her to

533
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 5: stay at my grandfather's, begged her to do something legal,

534
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,479
Speaker 5: and Gail just wouldn't. When Gail made up her mind

535
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 5: about something, you couldn't talk her out of it.

536
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: For the next six months or so, Gail and Bob

537
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: went to therapy, both separately and together. It was a

538
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: confusing time for Elane because on one hand, Gail seemed

539
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 1: to be dedicated to staying with Bob, and then on

540
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: the other she started to talk about leaving him.

541
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 4: My boyfriend Larry was supplending his apartment. She called me

542
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 4: to ask me if I could come up for the

543
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 4: last weekend in July because she wanted to have a

544
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 4: really big thirtieth birthday party for Bob. And then she

545
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 4: also asked me if she could subplet Larry's apartment because

546
00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 4: she wanted to leave Bob. And I said, you know,

547
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 4: which is it? And she says, I'm not sure.

548
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 8: A couple of visits in she goes. It's really tough.

549
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 8: I thought it would be different. It's not different. I

550
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 8: think I made a mistake. I need to change my life.

551
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 8: But it just so happened that my client next to

552
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 8: me happened to be a real toa and they started

553
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 8: a conversation. I didn't know where it went from there,

554
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 8: but I think they did connect about trying to get

555
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 8: an apartment.

556
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 4: I remember in the late fall, early winter of nineteen

557
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 4: eighty four her telling me, I'm going to get a

558
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 4: divorce and I'm going to get him. She told me

559
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 4: that she had a letter, a letter from his psychiatrist

560
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 4: warning her that he was twisted and dangerous and he

561
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 4: was going to kill her. She was going to use

562
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 4: that letter to threaten him to give her divorce number

563
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 4: one because there was no fault divorce in the state

564
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 4: of New York, and number two to give her what

565
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 4: she wanted, and what she wanted was just to finish

566
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 4: graduate school. She just wanted him to support her so

567
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 4: she could finish her degree and go on her merry

568
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 4: way and support herself. And I of course said, it's

569
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 4: very dangerous to be threatening Bob, that you're going to

570
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 4: ruin him. And as always, as when he strangled the

571
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 4: cat as when he strangled her, she said, don't worry, Elaine,

572
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:46,280
Speaker 4: I have it under control.

573
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 6: The last day I saw her, I picked her up

574
00:38:55,520 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 6: at her hairdressers and we went to the museum. It

575
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:06,760
Speaker 6: was a sunny day, warm. She was wearing the holder

576
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 6: top or something like that in shorts. We were laying

577
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 6: on a blanket and we were chatting about art, music,

578
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 6: places we'd seen and been, and how much we loved

579
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:29,399
Speaker 6: each other. She had the New York Times with her,

580
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 6: and we were circling apartments, possibilities. It wasn't until, you know,

581
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 6: towards the end of the day that she told me

582
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 6: that she was going to make him dinner, and then

583
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 6: during dinner she was going to talk to Bob about leaving.

584
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 6: I got nervous right then and there, because by that

585
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 6: time I knew he wasn't a kind of guy who

586
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 6: was just gonna take that sitting down. And so I

587
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 6: had this feeling in my gut like, oh my god,

588
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 6: you know, how's that gonna go? How's he gonna react?

589
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 6: And she was saying to me, I gotta get home

590
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 6: because I gotta cook Bob dinner. Walked back together to

591
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 6: her apartment, building, kissed each other goodbye, and she went

592
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 6: upstairs and I went downtown. I shouldn't let her go home, Denise,

593
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 6: that's not one year, I know. I know. Yeah, Bray

594
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 6: knew something wasn't going to rewright.

595
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 4: Sorry.

596
00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 6: I still still getting emotional about its Okay, yeah yeah,

597
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 6: yeah yeah.

598
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 2: Next time the search for Gail.

599
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 4: Bob was not forthcoming. Bob does not want me to

600
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 4: find your sister.

601
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 6: He was so stone cold. It's not as if he

602
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 6: displayed any emotion at all.

603
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 3: She left her pocketbook there with cigarettes, and she lives

604
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,760
Speaker 3: in a building with doormen, and there's a fire department

605
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 3: on the same block where they all whistled at my

606
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 3: sexy sister. Nobody saw her.

607
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 6: Sometimes I'd see somebody that looked like her. I get

608
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 6: this rush inside me like a girl.

609
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 4: I began the process us proving that Bob called my sister.

610
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 1: The Girlfriends is produced by Novel for Ourheart Radio. For

611
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: more from Novel, visit novel dot Audio. The series is

612
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: hosted by me Carol Fisher and produced by Anna Sinfield.

613
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:39,359
Speaker 1: Our assistant producer is Julian Manu, Gera Patten, and our

614
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: researcher is Madeline Parr. The editor is Veronica Simmons. Max

615
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: O'Brien is our executive producer. Our fact checker is Valeria Rocca.

616
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: Production management from Sharie Houston and Charlotte Woolf. Sound design,

617
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempsen and Nikola Alexander. Music

618
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: supervision by Anna Sinfield. Original music composed by Luisa Gerstein.

619
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: Story development by Isaac Fisher. Willard Foxton is creative director

620
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 1: of Development. Special thanks to Shan Glynn, David Waters, might

621
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: Ley Rowl, Katrina Norvel, David Wasserman, and beth Ann Mcaluso,

622
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: and an extra big thank you to Kevin Bartlett and

623
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: the rest of the band Odd for letting us use

624
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 1: their track The Electrifying Flying Man. We did reach out

625
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 1: to Bob and his legal team to ask if he'd

626
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: like to comment on the podcast, but we never heard back.

627
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 2: Novel