WEBVTT - Stacey Abrams on writing romance novels and political thrillers in her spare time 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.080 Hi, everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next question. 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:07.640 Stacy Abrahams is known for a lot of things, her 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:13.160 voting rights advocacy, for flipping Georgia in, for not winning 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:17.520 the state's gubernatorial election in two thousand eighteen. But in 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:21.840 addition to Stacy's political and advocacy work, she's a pretty 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:28.680 prolific author. She's written eight unapologetically steamy romance novels under 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.680 the pen names Selena Montgomery, and this month she's releasing 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:36.240 her ninth work of fiction, her first under her own name. 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:41.920 It's a political action thriller called While Justice Sleeps. Recently, 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:44.199 I had the great pleasure of joining Stacy on her 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.080 book tour at a virtual stop at Powell's Books in Seattle. 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:52.200 We had a wide ranging conversation about her new book, 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:56.240 her writing process, and of course about all the non 0:00:56.400 --> 0:01:03.360 fiction political drama going on these days. So in joy, Wow, 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:07.400 what an extraordinary year you've had, Stacy. Uh. Your work 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:11.280 Turney Georgia Blue played a pivotal role in President Biden's election, 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:14.959 you were nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, and now 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:17.760 you're publishing your ninth novel, which, by the way, is 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:21.320 being developed into a TV series? Am I missing anything? 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:23.840 Did you win an Academy Award in a Pulitzer Prize 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:27.920 while I wasn't looking? I did not? But what I mean, 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:30.479 you must wake up at times? How do you kind 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.160 of keep it all in perspective? Because it's pretty extraordinary 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:37.120 and even some of the questions and comments I'm getting 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:41.400 people are so just very honored to be in your presence, 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:45.640 virtual or otherwise. How would you describe the last several 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:50.560 months for you personally? As someone who really loves words 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:54.600 and language and tries to be very precise, the only 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:59.160 word I can use is weird. It's very weird. It's 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:04.360 extraordinary and amazing, and I am both incredibly grateful and 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:09.880 deeply incredulous. So it's weird. It's weird, but good weird, 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:13.640 we should say. And of course we're here just to 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.880 tonight to talk about your novel. Of course, you know 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:19.480 I'm a political junkie, so we're going to talk about 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:22.560 the state of the country and politics in a moment. 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.560 But I want to talk to you about while Justice Sleeves. 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:28.960 I think the first reaction people might have Stacy when 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:32.160 they hear that you've written a novel is wait, what when, 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:36.400 I mean, how on earth have you had time to 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:40.320 write enough? Not just one novel, but nine novels, Stacy, 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.359 I've written nine, So tell us about when you did that, 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:48.160 and and and sort of how you became interested in 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:51.799 writing in the first place. So. I am the daughter 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:55.200 of a librarian and a shipyard worker my parents when 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.040 I was growing up. I'm the second of six kids, 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:02.320 and they were very intentional at out encouraging us to 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:06.679 read and to love storytelling and to explore all of 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:10.960 the facets of our personality. For me, writing and reading 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:13.320 were just of a piece. Once I learned to read, 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:16.400 I started writing. And I've written poetry, I've done plays, 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:17.959 you know. I had a little brief stent where I 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:19.400 thought I was going to be a country music writer. 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:21.760 Turns out don't play the guitar well, so that went 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:25.840 out the window. But I've always loved writing. I love words. 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:29.520 When I was in law school, I realized that it 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:31.880 was probably the last time I would have or I 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:33.840 thought it would be the last time I'd have enough 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:36.640 free time to possibly write a novel. So I wanted 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.520 to write a spy novel based on my ex boyfriend's 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:44.680 dissertation and I was told by people in publishing, and 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.960 this is ninety nine, that publishers weren't going to publish 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.119 a spine novel by or about a woman. So I thought, well, 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.840 I know I've read about women spies, I know I've 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:57.320 read espionage. I realized it was you know, general hospital 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:00.480 and romance novels, and so I made my spies fall 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:02.080 and love killed all the people I planned to kill. 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:06.960 But at the time I learned how to structure a thriller, 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.400 to write a suspense novel that was romantically driven but 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.280 still has all of the elements of suspense. So fast 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:16.680 forward to two thousand eight, I had written eight. At 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:19.520 that point, i'd written six of my novels. I was 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:22.560 having lunch with the lawyer who Win the lawyers who 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:24.960 helped me become a really good lawyer, but who also 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.640 was one of my strongest supporters. Name is Teresa win Roseboro, 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.040 and she would apply me when we'd have lunch, she'd 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.440 ply me with these things she'd been thinking about. And 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:35.520 this time she asked me if I had ever thought 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:40.200 about the cork in the constitution that allows the only 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:44.279 the only people in our constitution who were given lifetime appointments. 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:48.039 Are they also the only ones who don't have an outclause. 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.360 If you think about it, if you are in Congress 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:53.640 and you can't do your job, you're physically incapable of 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.760 doing your job, you just get unelected. If you're the president, 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:01.080 the amendment says you can be removed, But judges have 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:06.200 lifetime appointments, and they can only be removed for high crimes, misdemeanors, 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.400 or death. But being unable to do your job is 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.520 actually not a disqualifier. And when she said that, it 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:15.279 just grabbed me, and so I spent the next couple 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.320 of years writing the book. I was still under contract 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:21.159 for two more romance novels, and there was this little 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:23.560 election in two thousand eighth that got me distracted. But 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:27.440 I've finished everything by tried to sell it, no one 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:29.360 bought it. Tried to sell it again in twenty fifteen, 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:31.640 was told that it was a bit absurd that we 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.599 wouldn't have a president who was involved in international intrigue, 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:36.480 and that no one cared about the Supreme Court. It 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:41.839 wasn't that relevant by the dynamic, and the climate had changed. 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:46.040 And suddenly while justice leaps got to come alive, and 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:49.880 I know that that night that that that Teresa, when 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:54.280 Roseboro UH mentioned that to you, you went home and 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:58.159 you started writing that very night because you were so 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:03.200 intrigued by this idea. And and for all your other books, 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:07.160 your romance novels, I know you used a pseudonym, uh, 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:12.320 Selena Montgomery, but you decided to use your real name 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:17.400 for the first time, uh, for Wild Justice Sleeps. Is 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.279 that because you've become really a household name and you 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:24.280 thought why not? Well, it was more that when I 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:29.559 started writing romantic suspense, I was also writing treat tax 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:34.760 treatises and social policy analysis, and it was just easier 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.080 to keep them separate. No one wanted to read romance 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:41.159 by Alan Greenspan, and you know, you can't really publish 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:45.080 tax policy under pseudonym, and so I didn't think of 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:48.719 it that intentionally, but it was basically brand identity romance. 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:52.239 Selena Montgomery was also much more romantic romance novelist sounding 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:56.400 name than Stacy Abrams. And now with this book, keeping 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.160 the identity separate is no longer possibility. People kind of 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:00.479 know who I am and what I do, and so 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.039 I'm happy to put my name on it. And as 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:06.719 you say, it's so relevant, given given what has happened 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:11.120 at the Supreme Court, with the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation hearings, 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:16.280 of course, with with Mark Garland and uh Mitch McConnell's 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:19.160 refusal to even meet with him after President I mean, so, 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:22.680 I think all eyes have clearly been on the Supreme Court, 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.920 and I'm curious. Last month, as you know, President Biden 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:30.360 established a commission to study the possibility of expanding the 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:34.360 court or setting term limits for justices. How do you 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:38.080 feel about those possibilities. Is that something that you would support. 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:44.880 I'm less compelled by the idea of term limits, mainly 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:49.080 because what I find in elected office is the term 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:55.680 limits sometimes cordin off both good behavior, but they incentivize 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.560 bad behavior. If you know there's no consequence, why bother? 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:03.320 And so I'm concerned about I'm interested and intrigued by 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:06.520 the idea, but it is not the most compelling. I 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.280 think the expansion of the court is actually a natural act. 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:11.640 We are a much larger nation than we were the 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.680 last time we expanded the court. I think the complexity 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:18.240 of our politics and the complexity of the questions coming 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:21.120 before the court warrant a larger court. But what I 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:23.640 don't want to see happen is that, you know, because 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:25.160 of tit for tat, we end up with, you know, 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.800 forty eight people on the Supreme Court. It starts you 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.320 start to get diminishing returns then. And so I think 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:32.839 that the commission idea is a smart one because rather 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.760 than refusing to have the conversation or always couching it 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:40.800 in purely partisan terms, this is an opportunity to really 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.640 think through why haven't we expanded it since the last time, 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.640 and what can it look like for the next generation 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:51.839 if we do expand the court or alter its capacity 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:54.400 in some fashion. I don't want to give to too 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.960 much away, but the plot centers around what happens when 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:01.120 a Supreme Court justice falls into a coma. You know, 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:03.400 it reminded me a little of that movie Dave, do 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:08.480 you remember with Kevin Klein, but but at the Supreme 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:10.800 Court instead of the White House. But the Supreme Court 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:14.000 justice falls into a coma and he names his young 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:18.560 law clerk, Avery Keen, as his legal guardian. So tell 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:22.160 us a little bit about the character Avery Keen and 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:26.520 how you came up with and developed that character. Well, 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:30.520 as you you explained when I first wrote that scene 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:32.920 That night I got home, I had to go to 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.400 work after I had lunch with Teresa. I got home, 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:38.520 I said in my computer, and the scene I write 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:40.960 with Howard Wynn was the very first scene and it 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:43.280 has stayed in the book. It's been the first scene 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.320 moved to. I moved it out of the prologue, moved 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:49.160 it back over the last ten years, but it's always 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:52.120 been there. And as I was writing it, when he 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.440 started talking about he he's a bit of a curmudgeon, 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:59.560 and when he's muttering about his clerks, Avery just was 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:01.559 really clear to me that she would be this young 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:06.320 law clerk who has, you know, on the outside, seems 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.600 to be good at what she does as this complicated life, 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:12.840 doesn't know what her future looks like, and it suddenly 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:16.920 thrust into this new controversy where she has done everything 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:18.920 in her power to kind of stay under the radar 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:22.719 because she doesn't want to get caught She's gonna get 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:25.040 caught up in challenge. She wants to just finally have 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:29.199 some normalcy. But I also wanted to explore the conversation 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:35.400 of having responsibility without having power, that you're given this thing, 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:37.760 you have to do, this challenge, you have to meet. 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.400 But all you have are your wits and your your 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:45.320 moral compass, But you aren't really given the authority to 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:47.600 navigate all of the spaces you have to be in 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:50.760 and what that would take. And so Avery, for me 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.000 is she I wanted her to be smart and courageous. 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:57.920 I wanted her to intentionally do good. I get frustrated 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:01.960 with books where our hero is good because it's be 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.760 good or die. That's not really a choice. I want 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:08.120 you to choose you can do good or you can 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.200 walk away. And I think that's often the tension, not 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:13.680 not quite as heightened as I do in the book, 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:16.440 but it's often attention we face where we have to 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:20.520 make an affirmative choice to do something that could undermine 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:22.560 what we want in the long term, but it's the 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.800 right thing to do. How much of Stacy Abrahams is 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:29.439 in a very king I'd like to think that most 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:32.120 of my characters, especially Avery, have some part of me, 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:36.079 But she's wholly her own person, and I wanted her 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:41.600 to be and intriguing character who could stand alone that 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.319 people wanted to get to know. I write characters that 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.760 I want to be friends with, and they're always very different. 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:50.560 In some way from me. But I think part of 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:52.800 it for me is also I get to live out 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:56.040 my adventures through these characters I write, and so, you know, 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:57.520 I think it's natural that a little bit of me 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:01.880 creeps into her DNA. You're know that Avery's mother suffers 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:05.800 from addiction, and that's something that you really wanted to 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.839 to explore in the book and something that you've dealt 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:11.199 with in your own family. I know that your brother 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:15.520 is currently in recovery, and and why was it important 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:22.000 for you to portraying more complex and human aspects of 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:26.400 addiction and the impact that has not only on the individual, 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:31.640 but on the whole family unit. And popular culture, addiction 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:37.240 is used either as a tactic to convey an issue, 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:43.280 it's used to villainize, or it's used to victimize. What 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:46.200 has always frustrated me is that it ignores the real 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:49.480 complexity that people don't stop being who they are because 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:54.520 of addiction. There are certainly exaggerations and their behaviors that 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:59.120 are saddening and disheartening and sometimes, you know, depending on 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.400 the love of addiction and the type of addiction, terrifying, 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:05.760 but the core of who that person is doesn't cease 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.600 to be and the humanity doesn't disappear because of addiction. 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.360 I wanted her to have a foil in her mother 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:18.200 that was a legitimate impediment to some of the things 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:21.520 she wanted that created who she is. When you've got 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.959 to think about being the caretaker of someone who should 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.040 be taking care of you, and you've got to navigate 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:33.160 this m challenge that sometimes diminishes their ability to be 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.199 who they should be. Does that mean that person ceases 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.440 to have value? And the answers no, because throughout the book, 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.600 I want that tension to play out where she loves 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:46.800 her mother, her mother frustrates and disappoints her, and her 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:50.280 mother wants to be a better person every day. And 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:52.880 I think being able to tell that story through Rita 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:55.960 and avery, to tell the story of mothers and daughters, 0:13:56.440 --> 0:14:00.160 to talk about the biological family and what that means 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:02.400 to us even in the darkest moments, all of those 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.280 pieces to me were important to give texture and color 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:08.600 and character to the story. The book also features a 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:14.360 corrupt and ruthless Republican president. Publishers originally told you, Stacy 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:16.720 in two thousand and ten, when you finished the book 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.200 and we're trying to get it it published this character 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:25.560 seemed quote absurd and far fetched, and um it now 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:29.360 looking back and understanding what the country has been through 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:33.800 in the decades since you wrote it, Um, do you feel, 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.200 in a weird way you were able to predict the future? 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:43.360 I hope not. It was. I think, unfortunately the last 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:48.280 four years we lived with a caricature of a president. 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:53.880 We lived with someone who took his opportunity for leadership 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:58.440 and power and bastardized it. Brandon Stokes, the president in 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:03.520 the book, is hopefully less of a caricature and at 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:07.320 least had I mean, he's a bad guy, but my 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:10.920 my attempt is to at least make him seem plausible. 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.800 But I think the other reality is that our constitution, 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:19.120 our structure of government, does not preclude this from happening. 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:24.120 And there was this naivete it seemed that rejected this 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:28.240 notion that we could that this could happen, and it 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.920 was never absurd. I think, I think far fetched, given 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:35.560 the complexity of the story or the different plot points, perhaps, 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.560 but I think sadly we've realized that while we have 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:45.080 a resilient nation, we are always vulnerable to demagoguery, two power, 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.800 you know, hunger, and we are susceptible to those who 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:52.320 prey on our best instincts to live out their worst. Instance. 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.240 We'll be back with more of Stacy Abrahams and the 0:15:56.320 --> 0:16:01.160 debate over voting rights that's intensifying across the country. That's 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:08.960 right after this. You say that if you end a 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:12.560 book and there has been no consequence to everything that's happened, 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:16.680 you've failed as a writer. So ultimately, what do you 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.120 think is the message of this book? And then we'll 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:22.000 get into politics, because I know everybody's chomping at the 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:26.000 bit to talk about politics. I wanted, let's say, first 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.680 and foremost, I wanted to entertain. I wanted to tell 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:33.400 a story that took an arcane quirk of the Constitution, 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:37.160 and I wanted people to have fun learning about it. 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.080 And every book I've written, whether it was you know, 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.320 my book about ethnobotany or you know the romance, my 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.880 Serial Killer romance about linguistics, I want to learn things, 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:48.920 and that's one of the reasons I write. I write 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:51.840 because I have just a deep curiosity to know more, 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:54.960 and I want readers to leave a book knowing more 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:59.240 about topics they hadn't thought of. I want to I 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:06.280 wanted readers to also engage politics in a way that, yes, 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:10.840 I I draw broad brushstrokes about the power that you have, 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.919 but also I wanted to talk about the complexity of 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:17.719 what people are having to deal with and how they 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:21.080 think about it. Yes, politicians are going to make grotesque mistakes, 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.200 but sometimes we forget what's on what's on the menu, 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:29.719 and how these things come into being. But ultimately my 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:34.679 mission was to create a story where the good guys, 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:37.800 if not are you know, if they're not wearing white hats, 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.399 then we at least see the illusion of them, and 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.320 that the bad guys, even when we were you know, 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:48.320 we reject who they are, we understand a little bit 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.080 more about how they came to be. And in fact, 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:53.760 I think it's so interesting that you've been very inspired 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.919 by the writing of Robert Caro, and that reminds me 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.679 of you know, how you're describing multidimensional care acts that 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:07.640 are deeply flawed and yet have these you know, extraordinary qualities. 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:12.200 And you really use lb J as an example of that, 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:16.400 And and how did you become really interested in him? 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.760 And why were you so captivated by the writing of 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:25.879 Robert Caro When I was in college, I created my major. 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:31.040 I went through physics and philosophy and theater, and it 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:32.399 was so bad they told me I could had to 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:34.960 stop declaring majors because I clearly didn't know what I wanted. 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:37.960 And finally I wrote a paper about what I wanted 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:42.400 to know when I finished college, and what really captivated 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:46.119 me was the notion of what what has driven me 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.560 is the question of poverty and just how vile it is, 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:53.640 how it robs us of this human capital, and how 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:57.679 it is interconnected with so many other broken parts of 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:01.960 our society. The president who who tackled that head on, 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:06.080 who spoke aloud about its evils, it was lb J. 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:10.000 But he was also a person who was an avowed racist, 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:14.680 who you know, impeded progress on so many levels, and 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:19.159 he fascinated me. This, this person who also became the 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:22.080 architect of the Voting Rights Act and who did so 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.800 much to a tone, but at the same time got 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:27.800 us into the you know, you know, extended our stay 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:33.400 in Vietnam and lead to challenges based on misinformation and 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:37.360 his refusal to be wholly honest. And then I got 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:39.680 to read more. That's what I was able to glean 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:41.720 from my own you know, understanding and from what I 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:44.760 was reading, but when I found Robert Carroll's books, like 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:49.399 the detail and the intentionality of his writing, but also 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:54.600 the complexity of the person who became lb J is 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:57.159 always a reminder that no one is one dimensional, that 0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:01.119 we have multi strand identities, and that the smallest parts 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:05.200 of our lives can infuse almost every decision we make. 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:09.520 It has taken four books to tell the story of LBJ, 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:11.920 and it's still not done. And I think that is 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:15.000 a testament to just how extraordinary he was as a president, 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:17.560 but also how flawed he was as a politician and 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:20.919 as a person. And that is our politics. I mean, 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:27.439 that is America, this juxtaposition, this internalized dichotomy. And we 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.560 are in trouble if we forget either piece of that, 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:34.560 or if we decide that our leadership cannot be complex 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.280 and cannot be flawed. But we've got to your point 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.440 about guardrails. We've got to adjust for it, and we've 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:41.840 got to adapt to it, and we've got to be 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.080 prepared for it. To worry about the sort of purity 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:50.639 tests that that are increasingly being used across the political spectrum. 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:54.760 Um that and and and uh, I don't I hate 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:57.360 to use the term cancel culture because like everything has 0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:02.160 become weaponized by certain you know, segment of the population. 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:08.080 But this sort of um, this this search and demand 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:14.080 for perfection in all things. In every past statement you've made, 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:20.480 do you worry that will will discourage many competent, qualified, 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:26.479 you know, purpose driven and committed people to run for 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.359 office and be part of the political system because it 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:36.000 has become so uh so demanding and so uh people 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:42.000 have been becoming judged so harshly for almost everything. My 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:44.760 parents were. My mom was librarian, my dad was a 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:47.720 shipyard worker from my first fifteen years of my life. 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:51.639 Then they became ministers, and one of the most important 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:56.200 lessons I learned from both they're more secular wives and 0:21:56.560 --> 0:22:00.400 when they became pastors is the notion of her giveness 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:04.440 and redemption. People make mistakes and they should be held accountable. 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.800 That is an absolute, but they should also have a 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:12.800 chance at redemption and a chance to make amends. Where 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:17.119 I take exception, I do not deny the legitimacy of 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:21.160 calling out mistakes and holding people accountable and setting high 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.400 standards and saying there's certain mistakes that rise to such 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:28.000 a level that your atonement may preclude you ever doing 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:30.800 anything else, but that should be a high bar that 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:35.120 we set. But if someone is willing to show their 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:39.080 true contrition, if they are willing to take do the 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:44.200 undertake those acts of paying for what they've done, trying 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:48.280 to solve for how they've been, If their apology is 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:53.679 driven not by you know, convenience, but by legitimate, you know, 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:58.280 a legitimate contrition and a legitimate attempt at atonement, then 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:00.280 we should create space for them to re end. Turn. 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:06.360 I don't think anyone should ever be permanently excluded from redemption. 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:08.840 I think there are some things that the bar is 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:10.280 gonna be so high it's gonna take you a while 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:11.840 to get there, and you might as well get comfortable 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:15.760 not being there. But this notion that everything that is 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:21.240 offensive is also a reason to exclude you is untenable 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:23.400 to me, because we are all flawed. We are all 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:27.879 broken people in our ways, and we will make mistakes 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:33.000 that will take time to fix. And you know my approaches, 0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:36.240 I need to make certain I give people that level 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:39.200 of grace. I extend that because I have no idea 0:23:39.240 --> 0:23:40.960 what mistake it is I'm going to make, but I'm 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:44.240 sure there's one out there, and it's going to likely 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:47.439 be unintentional, and it's probably going to be, you know, 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:52.600 very hard and harmful and hurtful. But I hope people 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:55.439 there's a phrase I've heard so many times, charge it 0:23:55.480 --> 0:23:59.320 to my head and not my heart. You still have 0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:01.800 to be You still to pay for it, but you 0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:05.760 should also be allowed to recover from it. But that 0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:09.560 recovery has a cost, and that cost cannot be permanent exile. 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:13.600 Let's talk about voting rights, because you can't have a 0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:17.359 conversation with Stacy Abrahams without talking about that, of course, 0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:21.679 and sort of election integrity. Um, you know, you've been 0:24:21.720 --> 0:24:24.879 called the future of the Democratic Party, Stacy, but the 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:28.640 GOP has already started raising money for a Stop Stacy 0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:33.119 fund to defeat a Georgia gubernatorial run, even though you 0:24:33.200 --> 0:24:37.760 haven't declared your candidacy. And I'm curious, you know, with 0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:40.800 with everything that you've done, it has put you in 0:24:40.840 --> 0:24:44.560