1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next question. 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Stacy Abrahams is known for a lot of things, her 3 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: voting rights advocacy, for flipping Georgia in, for not winning 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: the state's gubernatorial election in two thousand eighteen. But in 5 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: addition to Stacy's political and advocacy work, she's a pretty 6 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: prolific author. She's written eight unapologetically steamy romance novels under 7 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: the pen names Selena Montgomery, and this month she's releasing 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: her ninth work of fiction, her first under her own name. 9 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: It's a political action thriller called While Justice Sleeps. Recently, 10 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: I had the great pleasure of joining Stacy on her 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: book tour at a virtual stop at Powell's Books in Seattle. 12 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: We had a wide ranging conversation about her new book, 13 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: her writing process, and of course about all the non 14 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: fiction political drama going on these days. So in joy, Wow, 15 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: what an extraordinary year you've had, Stacy. Uh. Your work 16 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: Turney Georgia Blue played a pivotal role in President Biden's election, 17 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: you were nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, and now 18 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: you're publishing your ninth novel, which, by the way, is 19 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: being developed into a TV series? Am I missing anything? 20 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: Did you win an Academy Award in a Pulitzer Prize 21 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: while I wasn't looking? I did not? But what I mean, 22 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 1: you must wake up at times? How do you kind 23 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: of keep it all in perspective? Because it's pretty extraordinary 24 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: and even some of the questions and comments I'm getting 25 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 1: people are so just very honored to be in your presence, 26 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: virtual or otherwise. How would you describe the last several 27 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: months for you personally? As someone who really loves words 28 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: and language and tries to be very precise, the only 29 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: word I can use is weird. It's very weird. It's 30 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: extraordinary and amazing, and I am both incredibly grateful and 31 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: deeply incredulous. So it's weird. It's weird, but good weird, 32 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: we should say. And of course we're here just to 33 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: tonight to talk about your novel. Of course, you know 34 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: I'm a political junkie, so we're going to talk about 35 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: the state of the country and politics in a moment. 36 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: But I want to talk to you about while Justice Sleeves. 37 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: I think the first reaction people might have Stacy when 38 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: they hear that you've written a novel is wait, what when, 39 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: I mean, how on earth have you had time to 40 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: write enough? Not just one novel, but nine novels, Stacy, 41 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: I've written nine, So tell us about when you did that, 42 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: and and and sort of how you became interested in 43 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 1: writing in the first place. So. I am the daughter 44 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: of a librarian and a shipyard worker my parents when 45 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: I was growing up. I'm the second of six kids, 46 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: and they were very intentional at out encouraging us to 47 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,679 Speaker 1: read and to love storytelling and to explore all of 48 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: the facets of our personality. For me, writing and reading 49 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: were just of a piece. Once I learned to read, 50 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: I started writing. And I've written poetry, I've done plays, 51 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: you know. I had a little brief stent where I 52 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: thought I was going to be a country music writer. 53 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: Turns out don't play the guitar well, so that went 54 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: out the window. But I've always loved writing. I love words. 55 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: When I was in law school, I realized that it 56 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: was probably the last time I would have or I 57 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: thought it would be the last time I'd have enough 58 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: free time to possibly write a novel. So I wanted 59 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: to write a spy novel based on my ex boyfriend's 60 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: dissertation and I was told by people in publishing, and 61 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: this is ninety nine, that publishers weren't going to publish 62 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 1: a spine novel by or about a woman. So I thought, well, 63 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: I know I've read about women spies, I know I've 64 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: read espionage. I realized it was you know, general hospital 65 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: and romance novels, and so I made my spies fall 66 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: and love killed all the people I planned to kill. 67 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: But at the time I learned how to structure a thriller, 68 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: to write a suspense novel that was romantically driven but 69 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: still has all of the elements of suspense. So fast 70 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: forward to two thousand eight, I had written eight. At 71 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: that point, i'd written six of my novels. I was 72 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: having lunch with the lawyer who Win the lawyers who 73 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: helped me become a really good lawyer, but who also 74 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: was one of my strongest supporters. Name is Teresa win Roseboro, 75 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: and she would apply me when we'd have lunch, she'd 76 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: ply me with these things she'd been thinking about. And 77 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: this time she asked me if I had ever thought 78 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: about the cork in the constitution that allows the only 79 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: the only people in our constitution who were given lifetime appointments. 80 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: Are they also the only ones who don't have an outclause. 81 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: If you think about it, if you are in Congress 82 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: and you can't do your job, you're physically incapable of 83 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: doing your job, you just get unelected. If you're the president, 84 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: the amendment says you can be removed, But judges have 85 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: lifetime appointments, and they can only be removed for high crimes, misdemeanors, 86 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: or death. But being unable to do your job is 87 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: actually not a disqualifier. And when she said that, it 88 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: just grabbed me, and so I spent the next couple 89 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: of years writing the book. I was still under contract 90 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: for two more romance novels, and there was this little 91 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: election in two thousand eighth that got me distracted. But 92 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: I've finished everything by tried to sell it, no one 93 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: bought it. Tried to sell it again in twenty fifteen, 94 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: was told that it was a bit absurd that we 95 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: wouldn't have a president who was involved in international intrigue, 96 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: and that no one cared about the Supreme Court. It 97 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: wasn't that relevant by the dynamic, and the climate had changed. 98 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: And suddenly while justice leaps got to come alive, and 99 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: I know that that night that that that Teresa, when 100 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: Roseboro UH mentioned that to you, you went home and 101 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: you started writing that very night because you were so 102 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: intrigued by this idea. And and for all your other books, 103 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: your romance novels, I know you used a pseudonym, uh, 104 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: Selena Montgomery, but you decided to use your real name 105 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: for the first time, uh, for Wild Justice Sleeps. Is 106 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: that because you've become really a household name and you 107 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: thought why not? Well, it was more that when I 108 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:29,559 Speaker 1: started writing romantic suspense, I was also writing treat tax 109 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: treatises and social policy analysis, and it was just easier 110 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: to keep them separate. No one wanted to read romance 111 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: by Alan Greenspan, and you know, you can't really publish 112 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: tax policy under pseudonym, and so I didn't think of 113 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: it that intentionally, but it was basically brand identity romance. 114 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,239 Speaker 1: Selena Montgomery was also much more romantic romance novelist sounding 115 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: name than Stacy Abrams. And now with this book, keeping 116 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: the identity separate is no longer possibility. People kind of 117 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: know who I am and what I do, and so 118 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 1: I'm happy to put my name on it. And as 119 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: you say, it's so relevant, given given what has happened 120 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: at the Supreme Court, with the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation hearings, 121 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: of course, with with Mark Garland and uh Mitch McConnell's 122 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: refusal to even meet with him after President I mean, so, 123 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: I think all eyes have clearly been on the Supreme Court, 124 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: and I'm curious. Last month, as you know, President Biden 125 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: established a commission to study the possibility of expanding the 126 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: court or setting term limits for justices. How do you 127 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: feel about those possibilities. Is that something that you would support. 128 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: I'm less compelled by the idea of term limits, mainly 129 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: because what I find in elected office is the term 130 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: limits sometimes cordin off both good behavior, but they incentivize 131 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: bad behavior. If you know there's no consequence, why bother? 132 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: And so I'm concerned about I'm interested and intrigued by 133 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: the idea, but it is not the most compelling. I 134 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: think the expansion of the court is actually a natural act. 135 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: We are a much larger nation than we were the 136 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: last time we expanded the court. I think the complexity 137 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: of our politics and the complexity of the questions coming 138 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: before the court warrant a larger court. But what I 139 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: don't want to see happen is that, you know, because 140 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: of tit for tat, we end up with, you know, 141 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: forty eight people on the Supreme Court. It starts you 142 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: start to get diminishing returns then. And so I think 143 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,839 Speaker 1: that the commission idea is a smart one because rather 144 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: than refusing to have the conversation or always couching it 145 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: in purely partisan terms, this is an opportunity to really 146 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: think through why haven't we expanded it since the last time, 147 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: and what can it look like for the next generation 148 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 1: if we do expand the court or alter its capacity 149 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: in some fashion. I don't want to give to too 150 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: much away, but the plot centers around what happens when 151 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: a Supreme Court justice falls into a coma. You know, 152 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: it reminded me a little of that movie Dave, do 153 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: you remember with Kevin Klein, but but at the Supreme 154 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: Court instead of the White House. But the Supreme Court 155 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: justice falls into a coma and he names his young 156 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: law clerk, Avery Keen, as his legal guardian. So tell 157 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: us a little bit about the character Avery Keen and 158 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: how you came up with and developed that character. Well, 159 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: as you you explained when I first wrote that scene 160 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: That night I got home, I had to go to 161 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: work after I had lunch with Teresa. I got home, 162 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: I said in my computer, and the scene I write 163 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: with Howard Wynn was the very first scene and it 164 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: has stayed in the book. It's been the first scene 165 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: moved to. I moved it out of the prologue, moved 166 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: it back over the last ten years, but it's always 167 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: been there. And as I was writing it, when he 168 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: started talking about he he's a bit of a curmudgeon, 169 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: and when he's muttering about his clerks, Avery just was 170 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: really clear to me that she would be this young 171 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: law clerk who has, you know, on the outside, seems 172 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: to be good at what she does as this complicated life, 173 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: doesn't know what her future looks like, and it suddenly 174 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: thrust into this new controversy where she has done everything 175 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: in her power to kind of stay under the radar 176 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,719 Speaker 1: because she doesn't want to get caught She's gonna get 177 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: caught up in challenge. She wants to just finally have 178 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 1: some normalcy. But I also wanted to explore the conversation 179 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: of having responsibility without having power, that you're given this thing, 180 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: you have to do, this challenge, you have to meet. 181 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: But all you have are your wits and your your 182 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: moral compass, But you aren't really given the authority to 183 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: navigate all of the spaces you have to be in 184 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: and what that would take. And so Avery, for me 185 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: is she I wanted her to be smart and courageous. 186 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: I wanted her to intentionally do good. I get frustrated 187 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: with books where our hero is good because it's be 188 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: good or die. That's not really a choice. I want 189 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: you to choose you can do good or you can 190 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: walk away. And I think that's often the tension, not 191 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: not quite as heightened as I do in the book, 192 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: but it's often attention we face where we have to 193 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: make an affirmative choice to do something that could undermine 194 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: what we want in the long term, but it's the 195 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: right thing to do. How much of Stacy Abrahams is 196 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: in a very king I'd like to think that most 197 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: of my characters, especially Avery, have some part of me, 198 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 1: But she's wholly her own person, and I wanted her 199 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: to be and intriguing character who could stand alone that 200 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,319 Speaker 1: people wanted to get to know. I write characters that 201 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: I want to be friends with, and they're always very different. 202 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: In some way from me. But I think part of 203 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: it for me is also I get to live out 204 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: my adventures through these characters I write, and so, you know, 205 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: I think it's natural that a little bit of me 206 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: creeps into her DNA. You're know that Avery's mother suffers 207 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: from addiction, and that's something that you really wanted to 208 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,839 Speaker 1: to explore in the book and something that you've dealt 209 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 1: with in your own family. I know that your brother 210 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: is currently in recovery, and and why was it important 211 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: for you to portraying more complex and human aspects of 212 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: addiction and the impact that has not only on the individual, 213 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: but on the whole family unit. And popular culture, addiction 214 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: is used either as a tactic to convey an issue, 215 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: it's used to villainize, or it's used to victimize. What 216 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: has always frustrated me is that it ignores the real 217 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: complexity that people don't stop being who they are because 218 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: of addiction. There are certainly exaggerations and their behaviors that 219 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: are saddening and disheartening and sometimes, you know, depending on 220 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: the love of addiction and the type of addiction, terrifying, 221 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: but the core of who that person is doesn't cease 222 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: to be and the humanity doesn't disappear because of addiction. 223 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: I wanted her to have a foil in her mother 224 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: that was a legitimate impediment to some of the things 225 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: she wanted that created who she is. When you've got 226 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 1: to think about being the caretaker of someone who should 227 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: be taking care of you, and you've got to navigate 228 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: this m challenge that sometimes diminishes their ability to be 229 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 1: who they should be. Does that mean that person ceases 230 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: to have value? And the answers no, because throughout the book, 231 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: I want that tension to play out where she loves 232 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: her mother, her mother frustrates and disappoints her, and her 233 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: mother wants to be a better person every day. And 234 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: I think being able to tell that story through Rita 235 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: and avery, to tell the story of mothers and daughters, 236 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: to talk about the biological family and what that means 237 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: to us even in the darkest moments, all of those 238 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: pieces to me were important to give texture and color 239 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: and character to the story. The book also features a 240 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: corrupt and ruthless Republican president. Publishers originally told you, Stacy 241 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: in two thousand and ten, when you finished the book 242 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: and we're trying to get it it published this character 243 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: seemed quote absurd and far fetched, and um it now 244 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: looking back and understanding what the country has been through 245 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: in the decades since you wrote it, Um, do you feel, 246 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: in a weird way you were able to predict the future? 247 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: I hope not. It was. I think, unfortunately the last 248 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: four years we lived with a caricature of a president. 249 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: We lived with someone who took his opportunity for leadership 250 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: and power and bastardized it. Brandon Stokes, the president in 251 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: the book, is hopefully less of a caricature and at 252 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: least had I mean, he's a bad guy, but my 253 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: my attempt is to at least make him seem plausible. 254 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: But I think the other reality is that our constitution, 255 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: our structure of government, does not preclude this from happening. 256 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: And there was this naivete it seemed that rejected this 257 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: notion that we could that this could happen, and it 258 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: was never absurd. I think, I think far fetched, given 259 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: the complexity of the story or the different plot points, perhaps, 260 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: but I think sadly we've realized that while we have 261 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: a resilient nation, we are always vulnerable to demagoguery, two power, 262 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: you know, hunger, and we are susceptible to those who 263 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: prey on our best instincts to live out their worst. Instance. 264 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of Stacy Abrahams and the 265 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: debate over voting rights that's intensifying across the country. That's 266 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: right after this. You say that if you end a 267 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: book and there has been no consequence to everything that's happened, 268 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: you've failed as a writer. So ultimately, what do you 269 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: think is the message of this book? And then we'll 270 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: get into politics, because I know everybody's chomping at the 271 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: bit to talk about politics. I wanted, let's say, first 272 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: and foremost, I wanted to entertain. I wanted to tell 273 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: a story that took an arcane quirk of the Constitution, 274 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: and I wanted people to have fun learning about it. 275 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: And every book I've written, whether it was you know, 276 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: my book about ethnobotany or you know the romance, my 277 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: Serial Killer romance about linguistics, I want to learn things, 278 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: and that's one of the reasons I write. I write 279 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: because I have just a deep curiosity to know more, 280 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: and I want readers to leave a book knowing more 281 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: about topics they hadn't thought of. I want to I 282 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: wanted readers to also engage politics in a way that, yes, 283 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: I I draw broad brushstrokes about the power that you have, 284 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: but also I wanted to talk about the complexity of 285 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 1: what people are having to deal with and how they 286 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: think about it. Yes, politicians are going to make grotesque mistakes, 287 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: but sometimes we forget what's on what's on the menu, 288 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,719 Speaker 1: and how these things come into being. But ultimately my 289 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 1: mission was to create a story where the good guys, 290 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: if not are you know, if they're not wearing white hats, 291 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 1: then we at least see the illusion of them, and 292 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: that the bad guys, even when we were you know, 293 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: we reject who they are, we understand a little bit 294 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: more about how they came to be. And in fact, 295 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: I think it's so interesting that you've been very inspired 296 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: by the writing of Robert Caro, and that reminds me 297 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: of you know, how you're describing multidimensional care acts that 298 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: are deeply flawed and yet have these you know, extraordinary qualities. 299 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: And you really use lb J as an example of that, 300 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 1: And and how did you become really interested in him? 301 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: And why were you so captivated by the writing of 302 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: Robert Caro When I was in college, I created my major. 303 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: I went through physics and philosophy and theater, and it 304 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: was so bad they told me I could had to 305 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: stop declaring majors because I clearly didn't know what I wanted. 306 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: And finally I wrote a paper about what I wanted 307 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: to know when I finished college, and what really captivated 308 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: me was the notion of what what has driven me 309 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: is the question of poverty and just how vile it is, 310 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 1: how it robs us of this human capital, and how 311 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 1: it is interconnected with so many other broken parts of 312 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: our society. The president who who tackled that head on, 313 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: who spoke aloud about its evils, it was lb J. 314 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: But he was also a person who was an avowed racist, 315 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: who you know, impeded progress on so many levels, and 316 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 1: he fascinated me. This, this person who also became the 317 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: architect of the Voting Rights Act and who did so 318 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: much to a tone, but at the same time got 319 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: us into the you know, you know, extended our stay 320 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: in Vietnam and lead to challenges based on misinformation and 321 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 1: his refusal to be wholly honest. And then I got 322 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: to read more. That's what I was able to glean 323 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: from my own you know, understanding and from what I 324 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: was reading, but when I found Robert Carroll's books, like 325 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: the detail and the intentionality of his writing, but also 326 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: the complexity of the person who became lb J is 327 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 1: always a reminder that no one is one dimensional, that 328 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: we have multi strand identities, and that the smallest parts 329 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: of our lives can infuse almost every decision we make. 330 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: It has taken four books to tell the story of LBJ, 331 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: and it's still not done. And I think that is 332 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: a testament to just how extraordinary he was as a president, 333 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: but also how flawed he was as a politician and 334 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 1: as a person. And that is our politics. I mean, 335 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: that is America, this juxtaposition, this internalized dichotomy. And we 336 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: are in trouble if we forget either piece of that, 337 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: or if we decide that our leadership cannot be complex 338 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: and cannot be flawed. But we've got to your point 339 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: about guardrails. We've got to adjust for it, and we've 340 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: got to adapt to it, and we've got to be 341 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: prepared for it. To worry about the sort of purity 342 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: tests that that are increasingly being used across the political spectrum. 343 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: Um that and and and uh, I don't I hate 344 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 1: to use the term cancel culture because like everything has 345 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: become weaponized by certain you know, segment of the population. 346 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: But this sort of um, this this search and demand 347 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: for perfection in all things. In every past statement you've made, 348 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: do you worry that will will discourage many competent, qualified, 349 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:26,479 Speaker 1: you know, purpose driven and committed people to run for 350 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: office and be part of the political system because it 351 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: has become so uh so demanding and so uh people 352 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: have been becoming judged so harshly for almost everything. My 353 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: parents were. My mom was librarian, my dad was a 354 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: shipyard worker from my first fifteen years of my life. 355 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: Then they became ministers, and one of the most important 356 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: lessons I learned from both they're more secular wives and 357 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 1: when they became pastors is the notion of her giveness 358 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: and redemption. People make mistakes and they should be held accountable. 359 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: That is an absolute, but they should also have a 360 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: chance at redemption and a chance to make amends. Where 361 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: I take exception, I do not deny the legitimacy of 362 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: calling out mistakes and holding people accountable and setting high 363 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 1: standards and saying there's certain mistakes that rise to such 364 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: a level that your atonement may preclude you ever doing 365 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: anything else, but that should be a high bar that 366 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 1: we set. But if someone is willing to show their 367 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: true contrition, if they are willing to take do the 368 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: undertake those acts of paying for what they've done, trying 369 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: to solve for how they've been, If their apology is 370 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 1: driven not by you know, convenience, but by legitimate, you know, 371 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: a legitimate contrition and a legitimate attempt at atonement, then 372 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: we should create space for them to re end. Turn. 373 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone should ever be permanently excluded from redemption. 374 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: I think there are some things that the bar is 375 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: gonna be so high it's gonna take you a while 376 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: to get there, and you might as well get comfortable 377 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: not being there. But this notion that everything that is 378 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: offensive is also a reason to exclude you is untenable 379 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 1: to me, because we are all flawed. We are all 380 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: broken people in our ways, and we will make mistakes 381 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: that will take time to fix. And you know my approaches, 382 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: I need to make certain I give people that level 383 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: of grace. I extend that because I have no idea 384 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: what mistake it is I'm going to make, but I'm 385 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: sure there's one out there, and it's going to likely 386 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: be unintentional, and it's probably going to be, you know, 387 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: very hard and harmful and hurtful. But I hope people 388 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: there's a phrase I've heard so many times, charge it 389 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: to my head and not my heart. You still have 390 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: to be You still to pay for it, but you 391 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: should also be allowed to recover from it. But that 392 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: recovery has a cost, and that cost cannot be permanent exile. 393 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: Let's talk about voting rights, because you can't have a 394 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: conversation with Stacy Abrahams without talking about that, of course, 395 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 1: and sort of election integrity. Um, you know, you've been 396 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: called the future of the Democratic Party, Stacy, but the 397 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 1: GOP has already started raising money for a Stop Stacy 398 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: fund to defeat a Georgia gubernatorial run, even though you 399 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: haven't declared your candidacy. And I'm curious, you know, with 400 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: with everything that you've done, it has put you in 401 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: the crosshairs of your opponents, and and how are you 402 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: managing that? Just on a personal and professional level. I mean, 403 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: you're laughing, but it must get really tiresome, frustrating and 404 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 1: maddening at at certain points. It is all of the above, 405 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: but the goal of my work is is twofold. I 406 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: believe in voting rights because I believe in the power 407 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: of citizenship. I don't It's not about the act of 408 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: casting a ballot. There's nothing magical about that. What is 409 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: magical is that in a democracy, the casting of that 410 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: ballot creates the opportunity to hire people who will do 411 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: good and help improve your life. That's what I appreciate, 412 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: and I want that to be available to every person 413 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,479 Speaker 1: who is a part of our democracy. That said, I 414 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: tend to think that people who share my value system 415 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: are the better people, and so I am partisan in 416 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: that way. What is frustrating to me is that the 417 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: partisanship has overwhelmed citizenship in our nation at a level 418 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 1: that we haven't seen in decades. It's never fully disappeared, 419 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: but it is being weaponized and enabled in ways that 420 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: should terrify and chill all of us. And yes, it 421 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: it then becomes a question of my safety and my 422 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,719 Speaker 1: my humanity. Yeah. I used to like Twitter. I mean 423 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: Twitter has always been you know, tread carefully. You enter 424 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: the memes that have been developed about me are are 425 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: you know, both creative? And you know, luckily I like 426 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: myself I'm good, but it is easy to believe the 427 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 1: negatives and to believe the attacks. I have to remind 428 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 1: myself that I am who I was before I started this, 429 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: that I am Robert and Caroline's daughter, that I am, 430 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: you know, the sister to my five siblings that I 431 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: was before I've met me. I don't take myself too seriously, 432 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: but I also refused to allow someone else to define 433 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: who I am because they disagree with who I have 434 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: become in the public eye the work that I do. 435 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: And I'm stumbling over my words because I'm trying to 436 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 1: be really careful. We are so often bifurcated. We are 437 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: this person at home and this person in public. I 438 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 1: don't have that luxury. I've got to be holy who 439 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: I am, and because that is how I try to operate. 440 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: It has created more tensions and more challenges than I anticipated. 441 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: But I'm also privileged to have a platform to push 442 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: the things I believe in, to advocate for those who 443 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: I think are too often left out of the conversation, 444 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: and to live both of my faith and my my 445 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: values and for me, they are the same. And those 446 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 1: are the things that I think help help me navigate 447 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: and survive all the really negative, ugly things, like, you know, 448 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: an entire organization that is wholly designed to stop me 449 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: from doing something I haven't declared I'm going to do. 450 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: When you say the challenges from not sort of integrating 451 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,199 Speaker 1: your personal and professional life your whole self, what do 452 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: you mean what kind of challenges have come from from 453 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 1: being that person? Do you feel like you're in therapy? 454 00:27:54,920 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: All of a sudden, I appreciate the chair doesn't recline. Um. No, So, 455 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: without going into too much, last week, Tucker Carlson decided 456 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 1: to make light of my romantic suspense novels Assume in 457 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: an attempt embarrass me. I'm like, I'm not embarrassed. My 458 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: face was in all of the books, and the underlying 459 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: intention there was to humiliate me and to push me 460 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: out of this public narrative, the human part, you know, humanity. 461 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: We don't like being embarrassed, we don't like being ridiculed. 462 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: It is, It is hard, but it also requires a 463 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: bit of a recognition that I being who I am 464 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: and my name being on books either now that they're 465 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,479 Speaker 1: real at leasing my romance novels with my my actual 466 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: name on it, but I've never hidden it that that's 467 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: going to open me up to these attacks, and it's 468 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: gonna open me up to ridicule. That they're going to 469 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: be those who take everything I say out of context 470 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: and they will find three words and string them together, 471 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: or to say that I've blasphemed. Those are challenges because 472 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: part of it is not just that I know it's 473 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: not true. I have to do the work of making 474 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: sure others know it's not true, and that's the challenge. 475 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: I'm good with who I am, I'm good with where 476 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: I stand in you know, the eyes of my friends, 477 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: but I need other people to trust and believe the 478 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: work that I do, and that means I've got to 479 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: spend a lot more time trying to diffuse these attempts 480 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: at humiliation, these attempts at undermining me. And that's sometimes 481 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: a distraction, but it's also part of the work. We're 482 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: going to take a short break, but when we come back, 483 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: breaking news or not, you'll just have to listen to 484 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: find out. Let's talk a little more about voter suppression, 485 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: because it's a it's a very we worry. Sometime beyond Georgia, 486 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: Republicans are attempting to pass legislation in dozens of states 487 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: that many believe will restrict voting access Florida, Texas. I 488 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: read actually Stacey and preparing for this interview, there are 489 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: three hundred and sixty one bills with restrictive provisions in 490 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: forty seven states. First of all, can anything be done 491 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,239 Speaker 1: and what impact are these going to have? When you 492 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: look ahead, specifically to the mid terms. We have to 493 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: we have to begin by looking at January six. The insurrection, 494 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: as violent and as vile as it was, had a 495 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: very clear intend The goal was to undo participation by 496 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: communities that they thought were illegitimate. And if you could, 497 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: if you didn't, couldn't guess it from their words and 498 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: their invective. Look at the Confederate flags they brought it. 499 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: The Confederate flag has a very specific meaning, and I 500 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: don't really care about the revisionist history that tries to 501 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: claim that heritage means anything other than trying to venerate 502 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: those who thought slavery was a good idea. So with 503 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: that is your backdrop, you then look at the states 504 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: that are considering this legislation, and almost to a state, 505 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: it is based on an increased participation, largely by communities 506 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: of color, but also by young people, by the disabled, 507 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: by marginalized communities who have typically not been in the electorate. 508 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:33,239 Speaker 1: Their increased participation changed the outcome of the election, and 509 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: the insurrection was about undoing this this election, and as 510 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: a through line of this legislation is also about making 511 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: certain that if they can't undo what happened in they 512 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: will preclude it from happening in twenty two. In the South, 513 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: in particular, the vehemence with which they are denying their 514 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: intention is wholly at odds with the evidence. In Arizona, 515 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,959 Speaker 1: they just passed the law that will disproportionately affect Latino 516 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: and Native American voters. And it's not like they didn't 517 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: know it because we were part of making sure they hurt. 518 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: In Texas, in Georgia and Florida, they are not passing 519 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: laws based on the Sue Sponte notion that we just 520 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: need to do this. They are specifically responding to every 521 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: way these communities leverage the right to vote to actually participate, 522 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: and so we have to talk about it. Silence is 523 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: their most effective weapon. When we are quiet about this, 524 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,959 Speaker 1: when we accept that this happens, it becomes even more 525 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: effective because it convinces those who are under attack that 526 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: they are alone. And so our first responsibility is to 527 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: talk about voter suppression, to keep talking about it even 528 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: after these bills passed, because we have the ability to 529 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: affect the narrative. And in Texas we just saw several 530 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: bills fail because we kept up the pressure and we 531 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: got corporations to speak up, and we have seen change 532 00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: happen in Georgia and in Florida. So that's number one. 533 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: Number two, we have to help the organizations doing this work. 534 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: Voter suppression can be mitigated. It We need to defeat it, 535 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: but we can mitigate it by trying to solve for 536 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: the problems these laws are creating. And so look for 537 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: the voter protection organizations in your state. Number Three, we 538 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: have to pass federal legislation that creates a standard for 539 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: voting so that our democracy doesn't differ based on our geography. 540 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: That's the voting rights provisions of the For the People 541 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: Act and the John LuSE Voting Rights Devancement Act. And 542 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: I'll say all of this can be found at Stop 543 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: Jim crow To dot com. Just go to stop Jim 544 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: crow To dot com. We'll walk you through all of this, 545 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: tell you where these bills are where they're moving, what 546 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: effect they have, and how you can help make certain 547 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: that we keep our voices raised, we help the organizations 548 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: doing the work, and that we get passage of the 549 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: federal legislation to make our democracy real for all. I 550 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: want to ask you a little bit more about For 551 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: the People Act and why a federal law is so 552 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,959 Speaker 1: critically important. And I imagine Stacy, there's going to be 553 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: a boatload of resistance from states, you know, who say 554 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: this is really in our purview. This was set up 555 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: that we oversee election state by state by state. Can 556 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit more about the Four the 557 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: People Act and why it is so critical. So the 558 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: Four the People Act has multiple components to it. I 559 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: am focusing right now in this conversation on the voting 560 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 1: rights provisions. Article one, section for the elections clause gives 561 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: to the states the power to administer elections, but it 562 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: gives to Congress the authority set the time, place and 563 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: manner of elections. It's why in America we vote on 564 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,320 Speaker 1: a Tuesday in November. So we have accepted that the 565 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: federal government has this prerogative. We have accepted that. After 566 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: the two thousand election, we moved away from hanging chads. 567 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: We accepted the motor voter built. We have had the 568 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: Voting Rights Act from nineteen sixty five through night to 569 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: through two thousand thirteen, so it has always been that 570 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: the federal government has the right to that a standard 571 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: of access. That's kind of what the Constitution did when 572 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 1: it said you can't preclude voters based on their race, 573 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: which was the fifteenth Amendment, based on their gender, the 574 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 1: twenty Amendment, based on I mean the nineteenth Amendment, and 575 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: based on their age in the Amendment. The reason for 576 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: the People Acted so necessary is that we have determined 577 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: that without being able to preclude on those three reasons, 578 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: the newest approaches to limit who can register, how they 579 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: stay on the rolls, if they can cast the ballot, 580 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: and that ballot can be counted. That's what we saw 581 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: play out during the two thousand fight over vote by mail. 582 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: But across the board, this is going to say that 583 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: no matter where you live, you should be able to 584 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: register to vote. That you should be if you are 585 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: a citizen of the United States, you should be allowed 586 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: to register to vote. That you should be allowed to 587 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: vote early, because not everyone can go and vote on 588 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: a Tuesday in November between eight am and a p m. 589 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: And that you should be able to vote by mail 590 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: in case, oh, I don't know, there's a pandemic and 591 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: it's literally dangerous to stand next to someone in line. 592 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: That's what Those are the major provisions. Now there are 593 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: other provisions in it, and anyone who says, oh, she 594 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: ignored everything else, I'm not ignoring it. I have a 595 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: limited amount of time, and those are the big pieces 596 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: that I'm pushing for. You know, I'm curious how the 597 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: senses plays in into this, because there was some really 598 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: interesting population shift and and and in terms of the 599 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: Sun Belt and what's going on in in in southern States, 600 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: with the GOP making real gains, how is that going 601 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: to impact Because I know you've also said you can 602 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 1: replicate what was done in Georgia two uh can be 603 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: exported to the rest of the Sun Belt and the Midwest. 604 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: So when I did not become governor in two thousand 605 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: and eighteen, and I'm not confused, I've never thought I 606 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,479 Speaker 1: was governor, I created three organizations Fair Fight, to fight 607 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: for our democracy, to protect the right to vote, to 608 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: mitigate voter suppression in Georgia and across the twenty states. 609 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: I also created fair Count because the census is the 610 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: single most important input of data that we have in 611 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: our nation. It tells us who is, who we are, 612 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: where we live, and what we need and what we 613 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,359 Speaker 1: have seen in the census. The data that's come out 614 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:16,919 Speaker 1: so far should actually be I think I'm emboldened by 615 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: it and that it is showing a population shift to 616 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: the Sun Belt. And while Republicans by and large will 617 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 1: control the drawing of the maps, they do not control 618 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: the movement of people. And we are seeing greater diversity 619 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: come to the Sun Belt. We're seeing greater diversity coming 620 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: to states like Georgia, which is why its transformation was possible. 621 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: It is not inevitable. It takes if you are a 622 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: partisan in this conversation, like so, I want everyone to 623 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: be able to vote, but I want my side to win, 624 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: and so from my side to win, we know that 625 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,399 Speaker 1: communities that have largely been disenfranchised are more than likely 626 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: going to share my political values. What's happening with our 627 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: demographic shift is that communities that have so for so 628 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: long been denied real input are now amassing in greater 629 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: numbers in the Sun Belt. And we'll have I think 630 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: a larger an outsized effect on elections, and that's one 631 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: of the reasons we see these communities serving as the 632 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 1: target for voter suppression. Well, in demographics are are not 633 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: are working in your favor by there would be a 634 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 1: majority minority population in the United States of America. So 635 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: and that you know, it is something that is irrefutable 636 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:39,399 Speaker 1: and obviously, uh, those those segments of the population will 637 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: need their rights protected. Michelle d says, how does the 638 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: Scotus decision invalidating parts of the Voter Rights Act affect 639 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,280 Speaker 1: your recommendations when you mentioned a federal law to protect 640 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: voting So what happened in is that the Shelby decision, 641 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: which came from the Roberts Court, essentially invalidated the formula 642 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,839 Speaker 1: that is what animates Section five of the Voting Rights Act. 643 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 1: So we still have a Voting Rights Act, but it 644 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,839 Speaker 1: is essentially gutted because without the formula to say which 645 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,359 Speaker 1: states are covered by it, no one is covered by it. You. 646 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 1: So we have two challenges. We have the Scotus decision, 647 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: that's the Shelby decision, but there's also a case that 648 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: is currently before the Supreme Court that would get section 649 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 1: two of the Voting Rights Act. It has been the 650 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: intention of conservatives of sect of conservatives to eliminate the 651 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,800 Speaker 1: Voting Rights Act since its inception, and they are getting 652 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: closer to success. But the legal theory has been the 653 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: one that was put forward by John Roberts as the 654 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: Chief Justice, was that it was the formula was broken. 655 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: According to that, if we fix the formula, then the 656 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: Voting Rights Act will once again apply, and that's what 657 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,840 Speaker 1: the John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act accomplishes. But the 658 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: Voting Rights Act serves to preclude new bad laws that 659 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 1: you have to go something called preclearance. You can't do 660 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 1: new bets stuff. We've got to deal with the bad 661 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: stuff they're doing right now, which is why we also 662 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: need the For the People Act, because if we pass 663 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: the John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act and renew the 664 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 1: Voting Rights Law immediately, it will not undo any of 665 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: the existing laws that have passed since January, these insurrection 666 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: enabled bills, they will still be the law of the land. 667 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: And that's why we have to have a both in 668 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,399 Speaker 1: solution on either or solution. But I want to say 669 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 1: one other thing before it, and then we go the 670 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:33,319 Speaker 1: next question. There is nothing inevitable that says that Democrats, 671 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 1: because of demographic changes, will win. Any party willing to 672 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,280 Speaker 1: listen to the needs of the people and promulgate laws 673 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 1: and policies to serve them have the opportunity to win. 674 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: But what we face right now is a party that 675 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: has built its brand on rejecting this demographic change and 676 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,359 Speaker 1: refusing to acknowledge it. And so instead of amending their 677 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: policies to attract more people to their party, they are 678 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 1: instead trying to gain the system and deny access to 679 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: the right to vote. That is not right. I don't 680 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 1: care which party does it, and I'm a member of 681 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: a party that did it from eighteen seventy through nineteen. 682 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: I'm a Democrat with a full understanding that it was 683 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: Democrats that created Jim Crow. So voter suppression is not 684 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 1: the province of any one party, but any party willing 685 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: to participate in it should be pushed back on and 686 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 1: should be denied that kind of power grab. Let's talk 687 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 1: about the Republican Party today. Um, you know, seventy four 688 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 1: million Americans voted for Donald Trump, and you know, I 689 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: think he perhaps has surprised some people that he still 690 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: has such a firm grasp a chokehold, some might say 691 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: on the GOP, as evidenced by the ejection of Liz 692 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:58,880 Speaker 1: Cheney from her leadership position UH in the Republican Party, 693 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,760 Speaker 1: how do you metabolize that Donald Trump is a symptom. 694 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:09,800 Speaker 1: He is not the disease. And he's symptomatic in that 695 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: he was willing to reject norms, to engage in corruption 696 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 1: in order to achieve his political ends, in order to 697 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: hold power, and he was able to use the sort 698 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 1: of Carney level demagoguery to bring people to his tent 699 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 1: that happens in every nation. We He was nothing new 700 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,160 Speaker 1: and he will be nothing new. He simply, and he 701 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 1: simply read this moment in a way that convinced seventy 702 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 1: four million people that he answered their concerns better than 703 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:50,359 Speaker 1: the other guy. The problem there in is that rather 704 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:55,399 Speaker 1: than recognizing what he represents, people are simply talking about 705 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: him as a person as opposed to a symptom of 706 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: a deeper and darker through line in our democracy, this 707 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: notion of authoritarian populism. If he were to lose in 708 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: twenty four it doesn't dissipate. And what Liz Cheney found 709 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,799 Speaker 1: much to her chagrin is that despite voting with him 710 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,799 Speaker 1: more than nine of the time, you cannot support the 711 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: policies and revile the person that people when you have 712 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,240 Speaker 1: given them truck, when you've given them salients, the average 713 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,600 Speaker 1: voter is not going to see a difference, and so 714 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,359 Speaker 1: I I'm actually I'm very disappointed that they removed her 715 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 1: from her leadership position. I am pleased that she continues 716 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: to push back on his demagoguery. The problem is when 717 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: you enable the demagoguery, you can't then be surprised that 718 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: Frankenstein's monster decides that he doesn't want to leave the village. Well, 719 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,279 Speaker 1: it's not as if she didn't support him wholeheartedly in 720 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 1: the past, and then it was when it was a 721 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 1: bridge too far she spoke up. But I think so 722 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,840 Speaker 1: many people in the country were waiting for other Republicans 723 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,719 Speaker 1: at what point would they breach their breaking point? But 724 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: it's not about a breaking point, and I think that's 725 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,080 Speaker 1: part of the challenge we're having in articulating a response. 726 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: It's not just a breaking point. It is that he 727 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 1: embodies a set of beliefs and a set of behaviors 728 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,799 Speaker 1: that emboldened those who had to sublimate them as part 729 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 1: of the social contract when as a society we agree 730 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,399 Speaker 1: to behave in certain ways in public and in other 731 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 1: ways in private, but we leave each other alone. He 732 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,560 Speaker 1: brought all of those dark impulses to the four and 733 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:39,800 Speaker 1: because people like some of the things they got, because 734 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:44,439 Speaker 1: he did it, they celebrated him. And there has not 735 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,440 Speaker 1: been the willingness to you can't accept the present but 736 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 1: get really mad at the giver. It becomes part and 737 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 1: parcel of the same thing. And that's the challenge the 738 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: Republican Party and thus America is having to grapple with 739 00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,759 Speaker 1: right now. Well, well, I mean, what do you think 740 00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,080 Speaker 1: is the future of the Republican Party? Is that can 741 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: continue on this road? Is it? Is it a is 742 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,240 Speaker 1: it a craven desire to claim to power that keeps 743 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 1: you know, the fear of being out primaried by someone 744 00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,000 Speaker 1: you know that that Trump supports and that he can 745 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,360 Speaker 1: destroy you, not in a single tweet, but in other ways. 746 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 1: I guess, uh, still pretty effectively. Right Well, going back 747 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 1: to all justice leaves, I will say that well, no, no, no, 748 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: but I mean and sincerely, um, part of the story 749 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: is that there are people of noble beliefs who still 750 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:40,719 Speaker 1: do horrible things. There are people who think they're doing 751 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,280 Speaker 1: the right thing, or believe that the ends justified the means. 752 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:48,320 Speaker 1: They're all of these justifications for accepting bad behavior, for 753 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 1: doing bad things, and you can understand it without supporting 754 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,280 Speaker 1: and defending it. And the problem that the Republican Party 755 00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,919 Speaker 1: is having right now is they have not figured out 756 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: they may have to sacrifice what they want to get 757 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 1: what we need as a nation. And until the Republican 758 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:11,840 Speaker 1: Party is willing to sacrifice victory to return to values, 759 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: then they are going to find themselves held hostage by 760 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,759 Speaker 1: this man. But he's only an embodiment of what they've 761 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,359 Speaker 1: done to themselves. He was just better at it than 762 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 1: the other guys who tried. But he is not unique, 763 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 1: he is not special. He is simply the best version 764 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,360 Speaker 1: of this terrible notion that the Republicans have been pushing for. 765 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,400 Speaker 1: Democrats have founder We've found ourselves in similar straits. We 766 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,200 Speaker 1: got out of it. But as I point out, I've 767 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 1: been the Southerner my entire life. They have been bad, 768 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,720 Speaker 1: bad people who hold my banner, who hold the banner 769 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: of politics that I hold, And our only response has 770 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 1: to be to reject it, and that gets us back 771 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,000 Speaker 1: to LBJ. LBJ was a person who made terrible choices 772 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: until he decided to do right. So I believe in redemption. 773 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 1: I don't think it's coming out of Marrow Lago or Bedminster. 774 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,760 Speaker 1: But I think Republicans, if they are willing to reject 775 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 1: victory to regain their values, I think they can re 776 00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,480 Speaker 1: emerge as a valid and viable party. You have so 777 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:18,560 Speaker 1: many people still believing the big lie that the election 778 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: was rigged, and of course you have a whole system 779 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:30,640 Speaker 1: of misinformation and disinformation that is affirming those beliefs. Um 780 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 1: what can be done about that? Is there anything that 781 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 1: can restore faith in in the system among the people 782 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:46,279 Speaker 1: who insist that it lacks integrity? Although there's you know, 783 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: as Liz Cheney said in our speech, there's so much 784 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 1: evidence as we all know, to the contrary. I mean, 785 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,440 Speaker 1: what do you do with that? How do you how 786 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 1: do you approach it? How do you unravel this myth? 787 00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:03,600 Speaker 1: I think it's actually one of the most important justifications 788 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:08,640 Speaker 1: for standardized elections in the sense of across this country, 789 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,759 Speaker 1: no matter where you live, you get to register with 790 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:16,200 Speaker 1: the same perquisite that you have that everyone has a 791 00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,280 Speaker 1: minimum number of early voting hours, everyone has a minimum 792 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 1: access to absentee balloting. Standardization breeds more familiarity, but it 793 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:29,160 Speaker 1: also pushes back against this notion that somehow it was 794 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:34,000 Speaker 1: done wrong. You can't unring the bell that was wrung 795 00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:38,279 Speaker 1: with such vicious force in this election, and people are 796 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,359 Speaker 1: going to believe those things that make them feel better 797 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:46,280 Speaker 1: about the choices they made. My I don't believe in conversion. 798 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,560 Speaker 1: I think it is a hard thing to do. I 799 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,800 Speaker 1: believe in convincing, and the best way to convince people 800 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,680 Speaker 1: is to election after election after election, make it easier 801 00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,160 Speaker 1: and easier for people who are eligible to vote, to 802 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,800 Speaker 1: participate in our process, to hire more and more people 803 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,080 Speaker 1: who are willing to tell the truth about who we are, 804 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,520 Speaker 1: and to have the patients to understand that we have 805 00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,160 Speaker 1: always had challenges with our elections. This nation was built 806 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,880 Speaker 1: on voter suppression, but we were also built on the 807 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,439 Speaker 1: promise that we could get better. And the persistence that 808 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,560 Speaker 1: we have to have is that we cannot undo or 809 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,480 Speaker 1: we cannot convince people of the truth they don't want 810 00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,840 Speaker 1: to know, but we can demonstrate through our actions the 811 00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,759 Speaker 1: reality of what is so and that's the mission, and 812 00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,000 Speaker 1: that has to be what we continue to do. Uh, Stacy, 813 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,600 Speaker 1: I know you want to break some news here in 814 00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:39,840 Speaker 1: Portland tonight, and you know doing this interview with me 815 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,560 Speaker 1: of course, Uh, because I know you've waited for this moment. 816 00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,879 Speaker 1: But we've getting a lot of questions about and and 817 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,560 Speaker 1: I know you said you weren't really into being asked 818 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:55,120 Speaker 1: this question. But since you have a major announcement to make, um, 819 00:49:55,120 --> 00:50:00,600 Speaker 1: are you planning to run for governor? Stacy Abrams? I 820 00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:04,759 Speaker 1: intend to vote in the election. I have not decided 821 00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:07,120 Speaker 1: if my name is going to be on the ballot 822 00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:13,680 Speaker 1: or not. Scene that's it. That's it. That's all she wrote. Okay, 823 00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:15,719 Speaker 1: hold on, somebody just said yes. I need to be 824 00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,640 Speaker 1: really clear. I was not saying I'm running. So I'm 825 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,600 Speaker 1: not sure what that yes is responding to. But let 826 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:23,319 Speaker 1: me be very clear. And I think Katie is an 827 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,520 Speaker 1: amazing job of trying to trick me into an answer. 828 00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:30,200 Speaker 1: I'm not answering that question. I am focused on trying 829 00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,400 Speaker 1: to make sure we still have democracy. Let's get that 830 00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,760 Speaker 1: done and then we can talk about other things. Well, 831 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:36,799 Speaker 1: I could talk to you all night, but you've been 832 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,320 Speaker 1: incredibly generous with your time. I want to thank uh 833 00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:44,440 Speaker 1: Pal's books and the great audience questions. I wish we 834 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,640 Speaker 1: were there in person so we could actually see people. 835 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,480 Speaker 1: I could sit next to you, but thank you so 836 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,719 Speaker 1: much for your extraordinary work. And when do you they 837 00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,880 Speaker 1: When do they announce the winner of the Nobel Peace Prize? 838 00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:01,240 Speaker 1: I'm curious. I it is sometime in the fall, and 839 00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:06,439 Speaker 1: I appreciate there are there are many many people who 840 00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,520 Speaker 1: should be getting that. I am not on that list, 841 00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:10,920 Speaker 1: despite the kindness that has been shown me. But I 842 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:13,000 Speaker 1: will tell people that in October, which is around the 843 00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,640 Speaker 1: time Nobel decisions start coming out, they should be focused 844 00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:21,520 Speaker 1: on getting going there. By Katie Curry, that's so nice. 845 00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:26,120 Speaker 1: Thank you Stacy. Honestly, um, this was such a wonderful conversation. 846 00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:27,960 Speaker 1: As I said, I can't think of a better way 847 00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,000 Speaker 1: to spend a Friday night. I'm going to have a 848 00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,560 Speaker 1: cocktail now, Stacy, I hope you will too. And Brie, 849 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,399 Speaker 1: thank you so much and Jeremy for for having us 850 00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:40,040 Speaker 1: here tonight. I on behalf of Stacy, she could speak 851 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:43,279 Speaker 1: for herself, but on behalf of myself. I really appreciate 852 00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,839 Speaker 1: the invitation and it's always a real honor to talk 853 00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,720 Speaker 1: to Stacy Abrahams. Thank you Katie, and thank you Powell's 854 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,879 Speaker 1: Books for having me, and thank you everyone. Enjoy while 855 00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:59,200 Speaker 1: Justice leaves. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production 856 00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,560 Speaker 1: of My Heart Media and Katie Curric Media. The executive 857 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:07,280 Speaker 1: producers Army, Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer 858 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:12,319 Speaker 1: is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, Adrianna Fasio, and 859 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:17,120 Speaker 1: Emily Pinto. The show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. 860 00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,120 Speaker 1: For more information about today's episode, or to sign up 861 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,800 Speaker 1: for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie 862 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,520 Speaker 1: currect dot com. You can also find me at Katie 863 00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:29,239 Speaker 1: Curic on Instagram and all my social media channels. For 864 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,480 Speaker 1: more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i Heart 865 00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:36,080 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your 866 00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:36,920 Speaker 1: favorite shows,