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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie,

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Speaker 1: missing day thirty nine. With so many agents, so much

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Speaker 1: forensic technology, how can we not find an eighty four

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Speaker 1: year old grandma? Tonight? Breaking regarding the tattoo we've all

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Speaker 1: been studying, an expert joins us with all of the

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Speaker 1: clues that are left behind because of that one sliver

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Speaker 1: on the purpse wrist, and also, why not release the

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Speaker 1: ransom notes at this juncture? Couldn't the vernacular the verbiage

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Speaker 1: in that ransom note reveal to some people who the

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Speaker 1: kidnapper is. How can we trace the email? Was that

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Speaker 1: the way it was conveyed? I'm Nancy Grace, this is

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: It's like he didn't expect the camera to be working,

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Speaker 1: and then he has to backtrack and try to cover it.

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Speaker 1: He's like, what, maybe I can beat it to death,

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Speaker 1: and then got the big surprise when maybe he saw

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Speaker 1: the camera blinking.

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Speaker 2: What we're looking at here is likely some kind of

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Speaker 2: vandalism that took place.

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Speaker 1: Joining us an all star paneltmic sense of what we

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Speaker 1: are learning tonight in the search for Nancy Guthrie. We

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Speaker 1: do know that authorities have asked Mexican residents to pull video.

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Speaker 1: Is that being done in the Nancy Guthree case? Joining

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Speaker 1: us right now a special guest, Darren the Dude Russa

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Speaker 1: Darren tattoo artist of Rising Dragon Tattoos in New York City,

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Speaker 1: thirty plus years perfecting artistry in Japanese fantasy, American traditional

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Speaker 1: and bowl style tattoo at Rising Dragon dot Com. And

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Speaker 1: the Dude Rosa. Thank you for being with us. I

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Speaker 1: know you have carefully studied the perpse wrist. Let's see

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Speaker 1: the video of the porch guy approaching the front door

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Speaker 1: of Nancy Guthrie's home. They are intuson the video. Now

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Speaker 1: notice he's got his body totally covered long sleeves, gloves,

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Speaker 1: possibly two sets of gloves, face covering the works. Now

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Speaker 1: wait for it. At some point he reaches up to

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Speaker 1: dismantle or up the door cam or obfuscate his own moves,

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Speaker 1: and when he does that much is revealed. Now we

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Speaker 1: know that the FBI has a tattoo data bank largely

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Speaker 1: gleaned from gang memberships. It includes gail tattoos, it includes felons.

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Speaker 1: They're not members of gangs. And their tattoos. Whenever person

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Speaker 1: has a tattoo that is entered in writing in typed

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Speaker 1: writing on their booken report every tattoo, every mark on

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Speaker 1: their body. Very often those tattoos are photographed at the

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Speaker 1: time of booking to identify the perp. We also know

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Speaker 1: that Arizona has a gang tattoo database. We also know

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Speaker 1: about tag tattoo and Graffiti, a special elite team in

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Speaker 1: Quantico that analyzes tattoos and graffiti of all sorts, even

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Speaker 1: from foreign countries. Now, let's zoom in on the tattoo.

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Speaker 1: Let's zoom in and take a look at the tattoo,

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Speaker 1: the sliver app tattoo between the sleeve and the glove

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Speaker 1: straight out to daring the dude, Rosa. You have studied

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Speaker 1: this and what if anything have you learned?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, very interesting watching that footage with you. With you,

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Speaker 3: first of all, it looks like he took care to

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Speaker 3: cover himself. He's got the hoodie, the gloves. It looks

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Speaker 3: like he's right handed. He keeps preferring that hand when

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Speaker 3: he's when he's trying to cover the ring cam the

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Speaker 3: very sliver. I see black and gray work. I can

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Speaker 3: see some subtle shading on the edges of the crease.

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Speaker 3: It looks like to me it's most likely a full sleeve,

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Speaker 3: especially because he took.

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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on just a second. You've gone deaf con

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Speaker 1: four on me, Darren, the dude, I want to talk

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Speaker 1: to you. You said you see black and gray work.

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Speaker 1: For those not familiar with the gang affiliation tattoos, what

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Speaker 1: does black and gray mean to you?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, it's a prevalence, especially with the Mexican cartel

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Speaker 3: or the Chicano gangs.

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Speaker 5: They prefer a style.

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Speaker 3: Where the outline of the tattoo is a single needle

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Speaker 3: and the majority of the tattoo is shaded with levels

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Speaker 3: of black ink we refer to as black and gray.

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Speaker 1: Okay, look at the photo. Tell me what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: I think I know what you're saying regarding black and gray.

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Speaker 1: But explain to the viewers, please.

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Speaker 5: Okay.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, we can see some form and then

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Speaker 3: on edges, it looks like some shading in between the

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Speaker 3: black forms. You know, just based on the location in

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Speaker 3: New Mexico, California, all of the neighboring states, there's a

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Speaker 3: high prevalence of these kind of gangs and this is

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Speaker 3: the preferred method of of tattooing that that they alike

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Speaker 3: and they appreciate, and they also use to identify members

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Speaker 3: of the gang. And I would you know, besides covering

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Speaker 3: his fingerprints, assume that he's also has hands tattoos and

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Speaker 3: that you know, like to have your wrist tattooed. People

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Speaker 3: don't normally go out of their way to just have

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Speaker 3: their wrist tattooed. Most likely he is very heavily tattooed,

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Speaker 3: he has tattoos on his hands, and it's probably a

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Speaker 3: gang of affiliation some time.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Darren, the dude rosa joining us from New York City.

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Speaker 1: He is at Rising Dragon Tattoos. Okay, Darren, I want

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Speaker 1: to follow up on something that you just said. Sure,

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Speaker 1: you stated that an individual would not go out of

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Speaker 1: their way just to have their risk tattooed. What did

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Speaker 1: you mean by that?

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Speaker 5: What I meant by that?

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Speaker 3: You know, and kind of goes to my first point.

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Speaker 3: This guy is you know, I would put all the

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Speaker 3: money in my pocket that this guy is very heavily tattooed.

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Speaker 5: He has quote unquote.

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Speaker 3: Sleeves, So I would say we're looking for a heavily

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Speaker 3: tattooed individual. He's wearing the bacleava I. You know, I

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Speaker 3: put more money down and he probably has neck tattoos.

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Speaker 3: This is the this is you know how they like

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Speaker 3: to get tattooed.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me see Darren, Darren Rossa joining us. I say,

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Speaker 1: you have a neck tattoo. Are you telling me that

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Speaker 1: no one will go either way just to get a

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Speaker 1: risk tattoo? Therefore? Nice? Is that the devil? Is it

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Speaker 1: the devil?

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Speaker 5: I showed my neck tattoos because they're any color? Is

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Speaker 5: that the devil?

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Speaker 1: Is that the devil on your neck? What is that?

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Speaker 5: Oh? No, it's a dragonhead.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I see it better now, Okay, I'm glad to

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Speaker 1: know it's not Satan himself. Now back to this, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I agree with you. Every time I have dealt with

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Speaker 1: a defendant or a witness that had anything on the wrist,

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Speaker 1: it was part of a larger tattoo. Always the only

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Speaker 1: time I've seen a singular wrist tattoo. Okay, let's use

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Speaker 1: Angelina Jolie as an example. Okay, maybe a female might

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Speaker 1: get a DMB.

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Speaker 3: Or some little yeah, they get a little infinity loop

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Speaker 3: or like their grandfather's initials or something. But you know

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Speaker 3: this guy is absolutely heavily tattooed, and it's oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's amazing. What that We even got that sliver from

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Speaker 3: that ring camera like props to the race.

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Speaker 1: Yeah tell it, Google, Google did it? So, Darren, you

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Speaker 1: are confident, based on thirty plus years in the tattoo business,

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Speaker 1: that this guy has a full sleep translation from here

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Speaker 1: up covering the arm like a sleep. That's what a

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Speaker 1: sleeve means.

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Speaker 3: He's probably covered everywhere and especially why you know, okay,

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Speaker 3: he doesn't want to be seen. He's wearing a baklava,

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Speaker 3: but I would hands down bet he's also got neck

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Speaker 3: tattoos and probably something near his eye because that's that's

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Speaker 3: how they run.

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Speaker 1: Just to help you going forward, baklava is a nut

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Speaker 1: based dessert. Is the covering when you go to a

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Speaker 1: great restaurant, scholar would be delicious. Okay, back to the tattoos.

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Speaker 1: Do you believe that getting tattoos is addictive? And I've

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Speaker 1: got a reason for asking, because you're saying you think

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Speaker 1: this guy's heavily tatt I think it's addictive once you start, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like it, and then you end up with your whole

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Speaker 1: body covered.

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Speaker 3: Well, there's there's a lot of different factors, and we

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Speaker 3: have our Bethany, you know, for our behavior analysts. But

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Speaker 3: I mean there is in doorphins, like any people who

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Speaker 3: get addictive to marathon races or or ultra marathon races

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Speaker 3: that the runners high. There is something called ink therapy

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Speaker 3: that people who come to us in the winter months

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Speaker 3: who are suffering from seasonal depression come in for ink therapy. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: people most likely get heavy work, but also gangs, cartels

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Speaker 3: get heavy work. The kind of people that would form

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Speaker 3: this kind of crime get heavy work.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you mentioned black and gray work that you've identified

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Speaker 1: in that sliver of tattoo that you believe that is

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Speaker 1: part of a particular region's choice. Of what region would

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Speaker 1: that be?

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Speaker 3: That would be the southwestern right states with California, you know,

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Speaker 3: the neighboring states Arizona, you know. And not to put

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Speaker 3: anything against the Mexican people, but it's a very high

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Speaker 3: population of Mexican immigrants and those of them who don't

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Speaker 3: get legal work, you know, go to crime and join gangs.

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Speaker 5: It's just a natural evolution.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of crime, I've been looking very carefully at the

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Speaker 1: tattoo Darren the dude, and I don't believe it's jail tat,

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Speaker 1: but you have a different opinion. Explained, Well, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, it doesn't look like super clean work. It looks

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Speaker 3: a little fuzzy. I know the whole image is fuzzy,

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Speaker 3: but I would say if it was performed in the penitentiary,

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Speaker 3: they might do makeshift tools. They're not going to use

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Speaker 3: high grade three sixteen Japanese steal for their needles, so

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Speaker 3: you're going to get some bleed throughs on the outlines.

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Speaker 3: It's just how they do it.

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Speaker 1: Well, Darren, I disagree with you, of course, my law

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Speaker 1: degrees have not prepared me to argue with you sufficiently.

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Speaker 1: But every jail tat I've ever seen was not that

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Speaker 1: delicate because they don't have the tools that you were

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Speaker 1: just mentioning. They find precision tattoo tools behind bars. You

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Speaker 1: mentioned penitentiary as opposed to jail. Do you find more

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Speaker 1: prison tasts in the pan versus the local jail because

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Speaker 1: I do.

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Speaker 3: Okay, right, penitentiary means they're going to be there for

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Speaker 3: a long time, correct. So these people, especially if we're

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Speaker 3: talking about cartels or gangs or whatnot, become very sophisticated

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Speaker 3: with their network of of of who assists them right

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Speaker 3: in their daily activities and their income. They're they're going

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Speaker 3: to be friendly with guards, staff, et cetera.

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Speaker 5: They're going to have stuff.

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Speaker 3: Smuggled in or assisted in, and some of the work

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Speaker 3: has become a lot more. I've seen very sophisticated stuff

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Speaker 3: to rival legal tattoo shops. I've seen very sophisticated stuff

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Speaker 3: come out of penitentiary.

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Speaker 1: During the reason I'm making these subtle but important distinct

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Speaker 1: between jail and pen is because if he's in the

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Speaker 1: pen versus the jail, that gives me another clue as

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Speaker 1: to who he is. Jail jail, think of Andy of Mayberry,

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Speaker 1: think of the Fulton County jail, think of the local jail.

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Speaker 1: The time you spend in the local jail is less

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Speaker 1: than in the pen, the penitentiary, the CI Correctional Institute.

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Speaker 1: Why you were in the local jail. You were in

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Speaker 1: the local jail because you've got a misdemeanor and you're

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Speaker 1: doing twelve months or less, or you're waiting for your

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Speaker 1: trial or your court date. That's less time for you

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Speaker 1: to smuggle in tattoo artistry mechanisms or so. My point is,

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Speaker 1: you got to be there for a while. To get

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Speaker 1: all that smuggled into you. So that tells me if

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Speaker 1: this is a jail tat, this guy has done hard

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Speaker 1: time in the pen and he's been convicted as opposed

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Speaker 1: to waiting at the Mayberry lockup with otis. See what

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Speaker 1: I mean? If that's giving me a clue as to

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Speaker 1: who he is. Now you believe this could be a

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Speaker 1: prison tat. I do not, because it's too delicate. You

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Speaker 1: refer to a Japanese needle. What type of instrument would

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Speaker 1: be used to create a tattoo of this magnitude, a

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Speaker 1: full sleeve of that fine definition.

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Speaker 3: Well, these days the tattoo machine has evolved into kind

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Speaker 3: of a fat marker like pin and very sophisticated gradations

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Speaker 3: and needles. These new machines take what we call They

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Speaker 3: no longer take needle bars. They take cartridges, and some

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Speaker 3: of the better cartridges are using three sixteen. It's a

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Speaker 3: type of stainless steel Japanese metal for the needles. So

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Speaker 3: sophisticated tattoos can definitely be performed in the in the pen.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely so black and gray work from the south western

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Speaker 1: region of the country. The wrist tattoo indicates a full sleeve,

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Speaker 1: a full sleeve airgo Therefore, as suggest a full body

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Speaker 1: tat you believe the gloves not only cover up fingerprints

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Speaker 1: but also an identifying tattoo. Yeah, would you have tattoos

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Speaker 1: on his hand? Would that be inked?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely? Absolutely, It's it's a continuation. I mean, he's got

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Speaker 3: a sleeve, he's got a hand tattoo, and what we're

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Speaker 3: seeing is just the in between.

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Speaker 5: This is the junction.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me ask you the million dollar question, literally

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Speaker 1: the one point two plus million dollar question, because that

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Speaker 1: is the amount of the reward for information leading to

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Speaker 1: the whereabouts of Nancy Guthrie one point two plus million

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Speaker 1: dollars on the table. Darren, After looking at this, I

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Speaker 1: want you to think carefully before you answer. Could you identify,

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Speaker 1: just make a stab at it your best estimate as

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Speaker 1: to what this sliver it's a small portion of a

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Speaker 1: larger tattoo, what is.

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Speaker 5: It most likely?

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Speaker 3: You know, if we're going to go with the Chicano

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Speaker 3: gangs and stuff like that, it's going to be angels,

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Speaker 3: cloud work, family members.

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Speaker 5: It's going to be some kind of uh uh in memory,

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Speaker 5: some kind.

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Speaker 3: Of memorial to either a deceased relative or or or

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Speaker 3: a friend who died with them on the streets.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at it as you're speaking. You said, angels,

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Speaker 1: cloud work, what's cloud work?

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Speaker 5: Clouds heaven? You know, like a memory of there it

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Speaker 5: would be.

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Speaker 3: There would be words like uh to you know, to

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Speaker 3: my uncle love an angel, maybe some praying hands, all

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Speaker 3: these kind of like Christian symbolism.

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Speaker 5: That would be my.

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Speaker 1: Stat And also, Darren the Dude Rosa, you mentioned you

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Speaker 1: believe he's right hand dominant. Do people typically get their

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Speaker 1: dominant arm or hand tattooed or not?

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Speaker 3: No, Well, if we just go by the people coming

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Speaker 3: in my shop, for some reason, they want to get

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Speaker 3: their left arm done first. Not sure why. It might

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Speaker 3: be this psychological thing to get like the weak arm strengthened,

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Speaker 3: because tattoos can be like a symbolism of strength or protection,

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Speaker 3: and that might be why a lot of people tend

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Speaker 3: to get their left side first.

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Speaker 1: If this is his right side and we know it's

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Speaker 1: a full sleeve, that means his left arm, which he

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Speaker 1: probably had tattoed first, is also a sleeve. So we

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Speaker 1: got got two sleeves and according to your reasoning, a

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Speaker 1: full body joining us. Darren the Dude Rosa renowned tattoo

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Speaker 1: artist in that circle at Rising Dragon Tattoos in New York,

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Speaker 1: thirty plus years perfecting artistry in Japanese Fantasy, American traditional

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Speaker 1: and bull style tattooing any of the thoughts on the tattoo, Darren.

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Speaker 3: I would say, like like to repeat, this is going

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Speaker 3: to be heavy work. He's covering up his hands and

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Speaker 3: his neck. I would say, all of that is, all

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Speaker 3: of that's tattooed, and he's most likely in a gang affiliation.

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Speaker 3: He mostly Lee had some help, so I would say

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Speaker 3: his true is also heavily tattooed.

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Speaker 1: And Darren, have you ever been approached by law enforcement

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Speaker 1: to identify a tattoo on a purp?

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Speaker 5: Yes?

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Speaker 3: I have funny you should ask that question. That's a

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Speaker 3: great question. Many years ago, I would say, about thirty

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Speaker 3: years ago, I had FBI approached me with photos of.

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Speaker 5: A Long Island per This particular serial killer was going after.

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Speaker 3: Pay for sex women and they all had tattoos.

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Speaker 1: Factory crime stories with Nancy Gray, Darren, isn't it true

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Speaker 1: that tattoo artists like yourself have huge catalogs of tattoos

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Speaker 1: for people to pick from, And isn't it also true

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Speaker 1: that the tattoo artist that did this likely did all

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Speaker 1: of his tattoo work and would remember it if they

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Speaker 1: could be found.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. The catalog thing doesn't apply so much.

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Speaker 3: I would think if he was in a pen and

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Speaker 3: he was getting, like I said, China tattoos, they were

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Speaker 3: probably you know, spontaneous put together with some of those

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Speaker 3: Christian symbols and memorials I talked about. But absolutely most

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Speaker 3: likely the guy who tattooed him is also in a

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Speaker 3: penitentiary unless he's gotten out been released.

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Speaker 6: I wanted to come on, and it's been two weeks

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Speaker 6: since our mom was taken, and I just wanted to

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Speaker 6: come on and say that we still have hope and

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Speaker 6: we still believe.

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Speaker 1: The Pema County Sheriff's Department has put up a link

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Speaker 1: begging for video. Let's see the link from Pema County

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Speaker 1: Sheriff's Department. It states that the department is urgently requesting

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Speaker 1: assistance in locating Nancy Guthrie. They describe her age last scene.

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Speaker 1: If you have info, contact Pema County Sheriffs. They give

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Speaker 1: the number, and they actually give you a way to

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Speaker 1: submit video evidence. I can't stress how important this is.

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Speaker 1: Straight out to Dave Matt Crime Stories. Investigative reporter tell

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Speaker 1: me about the website set up by Pema County for

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Speaker 1: citizens to hand over surveillance video.

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Speaker 7: Nancy.

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Speaker 4: It's a very simple click to send website. There's a

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Speaker 4: link right there on the page so that people living

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Speaker 4: in the area or outside that have any kind of

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Speaker 4: video or pictures that are of interest that they can

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Speaker 4: submit it right there online. It's a very simple process.

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Speaker 4: Very wise they did it.

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Speaker 7: I'm just surprised it took so long.

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Speaker 4: But Nancy, right now, law enforcement knows that this crime

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Speaker 4: can be solved, but it's probably caught on video, and

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Speaker 4: it's one of these videos that maybe they didn't think

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Speaker 4: about or somebody saw and didn't give any credence to

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Speaker 4: and now they're going, wait a minute, I need to

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Speaker 4: go back and look. That's what law enforcement has been

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Speaker 4: asking of neighbors of Nancy Guthrie. You know, please go

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Speaker 4: back and review your video footage now there.

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Speaker 1: And they actually say urgent, urgent request. Guys, you can

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Speaker 1: find this online. This is from our friends at Fox News,

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Speaker 1: and the reason we're showing it is because as a

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Speaker 1: neighbor submitted this video which behind the porch guy video

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Speaker 1: could be the single strongest evidence in this case. Trust me,

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Speaker 1: this is being analyzed, blown up. I sewed the works

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Speaker 1: and it wouldn't be the first time a case was

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Speaker 1: cracked by car surveillance video. Do I have to say?

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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger, Let's see that video. He went back to

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Speaker 1: the scene at least eleven times. But this is the

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Speaker 1: video that I find really interesting. There is video of

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Speaker 1: him cruising around the neighborhood. It's hard for us to

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Speaker 1: make out with a naked eye, but this was enhanced

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Speaker 1: and isolated to catch his white Elantra. Not only there,

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Speaker 1: but a store clerk like a seven to eleven quick

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Speaker 1: trip type convenience store, took it upon herself to go

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Speaker 1: through hours and hours video and then call l E

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Speaker 1: law enforcement when she spots of white Elantra speeding. By

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Speaker 1: the morning of the murders around four a m. That

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Speaker 1: is where white Elantra first originated from her. Then white

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Speaker 1: Elantra was sent to law enforcement all around the area,

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Speaker 1: including Washington State University and Pullman. They plug in who's

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Speaker 1: registered here for a parking permit with a white Elantra.

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Speaker 1: That's the first time the name Brian Coburger emerged. Let's

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Speaker 1: see then of course, there's the Caitlyn Armstrong case, the

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Speaker 1: so called glam yoga instructor. There she is circling, circling

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Speaker 1: multiple times. Once wasn't enough, chasing the home of her

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Speaker 1: love rival, a world champion, beautiful young dirt bike racer

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Speaker 1: in her early twenties. She murdered her. She murdered her

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Speaker 1: over a love triangle, or so she perceived, caught on

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Speaker 1: video that leads to the yoga instructor, the glam yoga instructor,

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Speaker 1: as she is called, she looks like Satan to me.

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Speaker 1: Caitlin Armstrong was convicted of murder. And then, of course,

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Speaker 1: Molly Tibbets, the young co ed studying all day into

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Speaker 1: the evening, decides to go for a run. She is

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Speaker 1: approached by this vehicle see following her as she's running.

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Speaker 1: She finally threatens to call nine one one. At that

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Speaker 1: point the perp attacks her and murders her. Distinctive markings

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Speaker 1: on the side of his vehicle lead to the killer

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Speaker 1: and he is convicted. So in this case, to you,

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Speaker 1: Scott Iiker, an urgent plea to the public has now

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Speaker 1: been made. Submit your video. Can it work? It worked

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Speaker 1: in those cases.

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Speaker 8: It's a fantastic push again. I know they've said it

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Speaker 8: several times, but now they're giving them a quicker way

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Speaker 8: to submit that video. You got to remember it's probably

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Speaker 8: the older community doesn't know how to get the video

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Speaker 8: off their cameras or how to provide it, you know,

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Speaker 8: a simple way to get that information to the website.

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Speaker 8: Hopefully that helps, or at least have the FBI or

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Speaker 8: the Sheriff's office come over and download that stuff for them.

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Speaker 8: I think it's could be a very key aspect to

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Speaker 8: the case. We've seen this numerous times, and as this

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Speaker 8: investigation progresses from the frantic stage, Hey we've got a

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Speaker 8: missing person too, We've got you know what, now we

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Speaker 8: have a possible kidnapping. So now we're kind of getting into,

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Speaker 8: all right, the forming of a task force. When you

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Speaker 8: this task force, you're kind of going backwards a little

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Speaker 8: bit to say, all right, we need to regroup, we

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Speaker 8: need to re examine the data we have now, we

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Speaker 8: need a second set of eyes on it. We need

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Speaker 8: to retriage to all the forty thousand leads that came

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Speaker 8: in and see did we miss something the first time?

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Speaker 8: And they might start saying, okay, you know what we

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Speaker 8: were missing video from this area. Let's make another push

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Speaker 8: to get more video from that area.

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Speaker 9: In a case such as this, you're going to keep

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Speaker 9: that evidence until the case is completed. We never took

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Speaker 9: something and then fixed it and gave it back to

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Speaker 9: the people that we took it from.

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Speaker 1: What were they looking for? Day thirty nine in the

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Speaker 1: search for Nancy Guthrie. Now the FBI using the behavioral

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Speaker 1: analysis team looking at everything, every identifiable thing, every mannerism

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Speaker 1: of the porch guy. Straight back out to Brian Fus

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Speaker 1: Gibbons discuss it from Director Operations USPA Nationwide Security as

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Speaker 1: to why the ransom note hadn't been released. You say

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Speaker 1: you're not surprised. I am surprised because at this juncture,

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Speaker 1: what is there to lose?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, again, I don't believe the FBI will release something

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Speaker 2: if they believe they have something to gain from it,

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Speaker 2: and I think in this case, you know, with these

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Speaker 2: short ransom letters, there's nothing for them to gain and

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Speaker 2: potentially things for them to lose about releasing information about

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Speaker 2: the crime scene that may have not been public yet.

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Speaker 1: Joining us renow It's psycho analyst out of the Beverly

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Speaker 1: Hills Jurisdiction, Doctor Bethany Marshall. She's the author of deal Breaker.

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Speaker 1: You can see her now on peacock and find her

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00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: at doctor Bethanymarshall dot com doctor Bethany. While the FBI

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Speaker 1: is sifting through over forty thousand tips, they've got the

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Speaker 1: behavioral analysis team looking at his every move, his tattoo,

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Speaker 1: the ransom notes, why not release them? And what if

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Speaker 1: anything have you gleaned? You know, Nancy?

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Speaker 10: Those ransom notes are so important because they tell us

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Speaker 10: something about intent. If it's a very short note that's

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Speaker 10: asking for financial remuneration or some kind of you know, money,

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Speaker 10: then that means the intent was just a kidnap for profit. However,

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Speaker 10: if there's some kind of ideology in there, some kind

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Speaker 10: of a missive or a manifesto, now the intent changes

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Speaker 10: to more of a stalking profile, because we know that

435
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 10: stalkers cannot help but write about the relationship with the

436
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 10: victim and the victim's families, and stalkers do pick up

437
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 10: a lot of clues about the victim's life. So the

438
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 10: fact that this person knew something inside of Nancy's house

439
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 10: it could tilt either way. Kidnap for profit, proving that

440
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 10: she's they were in there or kidnap as a part

441
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 10: of a stocking, meaning that this perpetrator had gleaned a

442
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 10: lot about Nancy Guthrie's life.

443
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: What do you make of not releasing the ransom notes,

444
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany, because I feel, at this juncture, what is

445
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: there to lose?

446
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 10: I wish they would release the ransom notes. And I'll

447
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 10: tell you why. Most people have what I call affectations

448
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 10: in their speech. It's a word or a flourish that

449
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 10: they use to make what they're talking about seem more

450
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 10: important than it really is. And so I think people

451
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 10: who are criminal are rather empty people, grandiose people. They

452
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 10: have poor thought, you know, reasoning abilities. So I would

453
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 10: guess that there's going to be some kind of an

454
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,239
Speaker 10: affectation in these notes that would be recognizable to a

455
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 10: family member or a friend of the perpetrator.

456
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: Do you agree or disagree, doctor Bethany, that the likely

457
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: has a criminal history?

458
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,239
Speaker 10: You know what I do think the fact that they

459
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 10: couldn't find him in Codis tells me that he's he's

460
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 10: in a family, comes from a family who's rather unsophisticated.

461
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 10: In other words, they're not on twenty three and meters,

462
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 10: they're not doing genealogy research in their leisure time. That

463
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 10: it's a very hard working family whose time is tied

464
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 10: up making money. In terms of a criminal history, what

465
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 10: I really think, you know, Nancy, I want to talk

466
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 10: about the behavior and criminality. When I first saw porch guy,

467
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 10: I felt irritated, and I've examined what was my irritation about.

468
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 10: He saunters up to the house as if he owns

469
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 10: the place. There's a casual arrogance, which tells me that

470
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 10: he has done this before. Either he has a relationship

471
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 10: with Nancy and he feels like he has power over

472
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 10: her and that's the casual arrogance, or he has targeted

473
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 10: old ladies and he's broken into houses before, and that

474
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 10: that's where we see the familiarity. On the other hand,

475
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 10: he does not anticipate the ring camera, which tells me

476
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 10: that if his offending pattern is targeting elderly people who

477
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 10: can easily be subdued and he's not too concerned about,

478
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 10: you know, being caught, that he's really been targeting lower

479
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 10: income households which do not have ring cameras. So that

480
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 10: maybe this guy's offending pattern is that he's becoming emboldened

481
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 10: to go into wealthier and wealthier areas where he encounters

482
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 10: new scenarios that he had not anticipated.

483
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 6: To Whoever has her or knows where she is. But

484
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 6: it's never too late, and you're not lost or alone,

485
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 6: and it is never too late to do the right thing.

486
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 6: And we are here.

487
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,879
Speaker 11: We believe, and we.

488
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 6: Believe in the essential goodness of every human being.

489
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 5: That stub too so.

490
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: Who would have seen Nancy? Likely a cohort, a compatriot

491
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: of the kidnapper.

492
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,439
Speaker 4: Somebody crosses the border, they can take off in any

493
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 4: direction they want to go. This person claims that he

494
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 4: or she saw Nancy Guthrie in Mexico.

495
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: Where is Nancy Guthrie? Is she still alive? Is she

496
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: in somebody's basement or hidden away in an apartment? Is

497
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: she eating? Is she sleeping? Did they give her her meds?

498
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: This as we learned, civilians have been asked in Mexico

499
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 1: to search video. Will that be done in the Nancy

500
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: Guthrie case? Joining me An All Star panels straight out

501
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: to Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave the.

502
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 4: Latest, Nancy, you know you mentioned the search and we've

503
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 4: got the FBI asking for help from citizens. They're asking

504
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,320
Speaker 4: for video, any video. They're really focused on this, trying

505
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 4: to locate anything that leads to Nancy Guthrie. We know

506
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 4: that at this point there has been little in terms

507
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 4: of information that has been let out by the local

508
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 4: sheriff of Nanos, the FBI being a little more open

509
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:41,439
Speaker 4: about how they're searching for things.

510
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 7: As you see that video right there.

511
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 4: That video is probably the most important we've seen yet,

512
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 4: showing two and a half miles away a car going

513
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 4: back and forth away from Nancy's house. But Nancy the

514
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 4: FBI seeking help in Mexico is what we're hearing now

515
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 4: and asking for videos there. So this is an ongoing,

516
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 4: not cold at all kind of case, and it's just

517
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 4: at the point now where you're going, what could possibly

518
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 4: happen next?

519
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 7: Where do we go? Now we've got to get help

520
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 7: from the public.

521
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: Guys. You're seeing video that Nanos first said was unrelated,

522
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: but that now is being analyzed over and over. Also,

523
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 1: we understand that the FBI behavioral analysts are reviewing the

524
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 1: porch video to determine what they can learn this as

525
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: the ransom note is being searched studied to determine what,

526
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 1: if any clue it can give straight out to Scott Iiker,

527
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: former FBI with the Cellular Analysis Survey Team Homicide in Norfolk, Virginia,

528
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 1: now with precision cellular Analysis. Scott, I'm very concerned about

529
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 1: why the ransom notes have not been released to the public.

530
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 1: As Dave matt was describing so much evidence being kept

531
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: close to the vest. I'm sure you recall the case

532
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: of the unibomber, Tech Kazinski. He terrorized the country for

533
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 1: years with bombs, the unibomber, and it was only when

534
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: his manifesto was published in the New York Times did

535
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: someone his brother, identify his phraseology. He knew immediately that

536
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: was his brother. Why has the FBI kept this close

537
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: to the vest? I don't try to figure out what

538
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: Nanos is thinking, But wouldn't it help if that was

539
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: released if in fact the ransom notes are legitimate.

540
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 8: That's the first question is are the ransom notes legitimate?

541
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 8: And we could obviously say those letters from the unibomber

542
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 8: his manifesto were related to him. There was enough in

543
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 8: the information there to say, yes, this is our bomber.

544
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 8: Now we can release it to try to identify our suspect,

545
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 8: and that worked out great. We had a family member say,

546
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 8: I recognize that that's my crazy brother. Okay, now looking

547
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,280
Speaker 8: at the case here with Nancy Guthrie, do we actually

548
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 8: really have a ransom letter? Do we have a one

549
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 8: that's actually been a tied to the kidnapping, or do

550
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 8: we have a bunch of fake ransom letters people just

551
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 8: trying to get money. So the first thing is realizing

552
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 8: or being able to determine, yes, this is a real

553
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 8: ransom letter related to the case, and you can prove

554
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 8: that you would start working that hard first. When you

555
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 8: get to the end and you say I can't figure

556
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 8: out who this guy is based on the letter, then

557
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 8: you ask for the public's help.

558
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: De Briyanhvus Gibbons joining US Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security,

559
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: leading a team of investigators around the world, including extractions

560
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 1: from Mexico looking for missing people for Iraqi war Vet.

561
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: I'm wondering why they are not releasing the verbiage in

562
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: the ransom note. They don't know whether the ransom note

563
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: is connected or not. Have you considered the possibility, Brian,

564
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: that at the beginning this was a ransom, a kidnapped

565
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: for ransom, but that at some juncture they could no

566
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: longer offer proof of life, so they offered details about

567
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's room and the inside of her home, possibly

568
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: what she was wearing, because they could not send valid

569
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 1: ie video or photo proof of life any longer. Have

570
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: you considered that angle? And if so, wouldn't releasing the

571
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 1: ransom note be of great help? The way the manifesto

572
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 1: in Kazinski was a great help. I mean think, think

573
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: even in the Jombine Ramsey case, the vernacular, the word,

574
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 1: the verted verbiage that was used, the word hints. How

575
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: many people do you know, except maybe me, occasionally use

576
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: the word hints heints. That is like waving a red

577
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: flag to a bull. Might as well take out an

578
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: ad on Third Avenue in downtown Manhattan who uses that?

579
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,959
Speaker 1: So that is an example. Then another great example would

580
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: be BTK by Torture Kill, where he taunted, taunted police

581
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: and local media. His typed written letter of taunting was

582
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 1: traced back to its typewriter. And trust me, it's not

583
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 1: just the key, the key itself, even with the type

584
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: ball on a let's just say IBM selectra the ribbon

585
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: can give you the ransom note or the note sent.

586
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: There are a million ways to track a ransom note.

587
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: So help me. Brian has Gibbons. Why hasn't the FBI

588
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 1: released the ransom notes.

589
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 2: I'm not surprised by this at all, Nancy. I don't

590
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 2: think that the FBI has anything to gain by releasing this,

591
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 2: and I'll explain that for two reasons. One, compare it

592
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 2: to Ted Kaczynski's manifesto that was released in nineteen ninety

593
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 2: five that was thirty five thousand words.

594
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 5: Okay, so the.

595
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 2: Chance of somebody seeing an ideology connecting that back to

596
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 2: a person with thirty five thousand words is very probable.

597
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 2: The John Benade Ramsey letter that was handwritten, right, there

598
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 2: might be somebody who recognizes the handwriting. In this case,

599
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 2: these were short missives sent digitally to TMZ. The FBI

600
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 2: doesn't want to cloud this copycats being created, or would that,

601
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 2: you know, as they verify this, they don't want that

602
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 2: those pieces of information that we're specifically in there being

603
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 2: released to the public.

604
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 11: We saw some things at the home that we're concerning

605
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 11: to us. We believe now after we processed that crime scene,

606
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 11: that we do in fact have a crime scene, that

607
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 11: we do in fact have a crime and we're asking

608
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 11: the community's help.

609
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about Nancy

610
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: Guthy's disappearance, please dial toll free eight hundred two two

611
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: five five three two four eight hundred two two five

612
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: five three two four, or if you wish to remain

613
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: anonymous five two zero eight eight two seven four sixty

614
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: three five two zero eight eight two seven four six three.

615
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: There is a one point two plus million dollar reward

616
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,280
Speaker 1: for information leading to the whereabouts of Nancy Guthrie and arrest.

617
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: Much less a conviction is not really required for you

618
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 1: to get the reward. We remember American hero Captain Cody Cork,

619
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: US Army Reserve Command, just thirty five killed in a

620
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: drone strike Kuwait. American hero Captain Cody Cork Nancy Gray

621
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye, sir,