WEBVTT - Backlash Over ICE Tactics in Minnesota 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.480 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosseo from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:10.479 I don't think it's a pullback. It's a little bit 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:11.000 of a change. 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:13.040 Everybody in this room that has a business, you know, 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:14.800 you make little changes. You know. 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:17.640 Bavino is very good, but he's a pretty. 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:18.319 Out there kind of a guy. 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:19.640 And in some cases that's good. 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:20.880 Maybe it wasn't good here. 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:25.120 That was President Trump on Fox saying they're de escalating 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:29.840 in Minnesota rather than enforcing a pullback. Trump is shuffling 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:34.040 the lieutenants in charge of his immigration crackdown in Minneapolis 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.840 after a second person was killed by a federal officer 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:42.080 in a matter of weeks. He's dispatched Borderzar Tom Homan 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:46.480 to the state to replace Border Patrol Chief Greg Bavino, 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:50.880 who'd been the face of the aggressive, almost militarized operation. 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:55.160 My guest is Christy Lopez, a professor at Georgetown Law. 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.640 She served as the Deputy chief in the Special Litigation 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:02.000 Section of the Civil Rights Division at the Justice Department 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:06.520 and led the pattern or practice investigations of police departments. 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:09.759 I want to get your general impression of what's been 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:13.479 happening in Minnesota. The tactics that have been used by 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:17.600 immigration agents. You have the shooting deaths of two people 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:22.119 by ICE officers within weeks of each other. And we've 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:29.000 seen all these videos showing aggressive tactics by officers ice agents, 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:32.040 throwing chemical agents at not even a crowd, at a 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:35.679 few people, shoving people who are trying to film them. 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:39.280 I saw one video where a man was already on 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:44.360 the ground, subdued and an ICE officer still sprayed a 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:46.480 yellow chemical into his face. 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:51.840 This is a law enforcement agency that is completely out 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:54.680 of control. I don't say that lightly. I have just 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.240 seen this happen in other places. You know, when I 0:01:57.280 --> 0:01:59.440 was at the Department of Justice Civil Rights Division, we 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.920 would invest gate law enforcement agencies. There were local agencies 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:06.280 that were sometimes out of control, and they acted just 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:08.800 like this one for all the same reasons. It's just 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.440 that what's so disturbing about this. I mean, part of 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:13.520 what is disturbing about this to many peoples, and it's 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:16.240 the federal government. Part of what's disturbing about it is 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:18.919 that this is a nationwide you know, they have nationwide 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:23.760 enforcement of authority, and so it's been most pronounced in Minneapolis. 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:26.000 That's certainly not the only place where they had been 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:29.720 shooting people and using excessive force, lying about what they're doing. 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:32.799 And so when you have a law enforcement agency that's 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.160 out of control, that's frightening on a couple of levels. 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:38.800 One is just people our right to be concerned about 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:42.239 their personal safety, but it's also a real threat to democracy. 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:45.960 So I think it's hard to overstate how problematic this is. 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:48.880 Problematic is two weak a word, right, It's really hard 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:53.079 to overstate how dangerous what is happening is. 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:57.960 Along those lines, Alex Pretty was the fifth person to 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:02.520 be shot and killed by federal immigration officers since Trump 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:07.720 launched his immigration crackdown in Los Angeles last June, and 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:12.760 at least nineteen times federal immigration agents have opened fire 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:17.519 on civilians. Most of those incidents involve agents firing at 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:22.600 drivers during enforcement stops. None of the officers has faced 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:28.040 criminal charges, and the administration hasn't announced any internal disciplinary 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:33.239 measures against them. Is this very unusual? What would normally happen? 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.880 So I'm hesitating about usual and normal for two reasons. 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.480 One is, with eighteen thousand law enforcement agencies, it's hard 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:42.760 to say what's normal or usual in any given agency 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:45.360 because there's a wide spectrum of what happens. And even 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:49.000 when you talk about the federal law enforcement agencies, even 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:53.760 when you focus on immigration enforcement, CBPHSI, ICE, it's hard 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:56.800 to know how abnormal this is. I will say it 0:03:56.880 --> 0:04:01.000 is completely unacceptable, and it is the reason that we 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.480 see this law enforcement agency being out of control is 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:07.119 because there is not any accountability either external right, There's 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:08.960 no investigation that's being done so that there can be 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:13.960 criminal prosecutions. There's very little accountability through civil litigation because 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.240 of how difficult the Supreme Court has made the law 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:20.160 in this area and the internal accountability mechanisms, which are 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:23.080 the most effective, generally speaking, in the most real time, 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.479 you just say that people don't do this, You give 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:28.800 them a day off if they start to do something wrong, 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:30.719 and you fire them if they keep doing it. That 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:34.000 sort of accountability is not happening. Now. That's long been 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:38.520 a problem with immigration enforcement, in part because of the line, 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.600 and we've been drawing it and discussing these cases between 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.880 what implicitly what people think is okay for law enforcement 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:47.920 to do to non citizens versus citizens, and a lot 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.479 of what immigration enforcement has been doing in this country 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:53.840 has been done to non citizens, oftentimes at the border 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.480 and they've essentially been given a pass, and so it's 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:58.919 really important for a number of reasons to stop making 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:02.360 a distinction between how between non citizens and citizens. And 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.080 one of the reasons is that that distinction is why 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:08.240 they've been allowed to grow into an agency that uses 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:11.440 excessive force with impunity and lies about it with impunity. 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:14.039 So I think it's important for people to recognize that 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:18.159 the way that these federal immigration enforcement agencies are working 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:20.960 now did not come out of nowhere. It has a 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:24.520 long history and being allowed to behave this way in 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:27.760 places that were not as open to the public and 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.920 against people that did not have as much sympathy as 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:32.200 protesters do now. 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:37.000 As far as investigations, it seems as if the federal 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:41.400 government is doing an investigation on the latest killing of 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.880 Alex Pretty. I'm not sure about the Renee Good shooting. 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:49.400 Whether they're actually doing an investigation on the federal level, it's. 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:52.240 A little unclear, and I think it's probably changing. It's 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.400 robe fairly fluid, given that they're getting much more pushback 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:58.719 than they expected. But from what I have read, it 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:00.919 appears that they're doing what is called the use of 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.360 force review, which is what you should do anytime there's 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:08.200 a serious use of force, and what historically DHS law 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.120 enforcement agencies have done, right any use of force, not 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:14.520 just shootings, but you know, strikes to the head for example, 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:16.599 anything that's a serious use of force. You would do 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:20.000 a review to determine whether there are any policy violations 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:23.080 or whether there were any maybe training problems or even 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:26.520 equipment problems that were revealed by the incident. And that's 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:28.839 something that should happen regardless of whether there's a complaint, 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.960 regardless of whether there's you know, any media about it. 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.440 It's an internal often called an administrative investigation. It sounds 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.240 like they're maybe doing that now. I think people would 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:42.240 be correct to be concerned about the robustness of that 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:47.360 investigation and the credibility of that investigation, given the demonstrably 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:52.640 false prejudicial statements that leaders of that organization have already made. 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.279 And so what often happens when law enforcement agencies have 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.920 those problems with credibility or just competency, is you will 0:06:59.920 --> 0:07:03.880 have an outside agency conduct that administrative investigation. So that's 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:05.600 what I think we should all be asking for as 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.880 an independent agency for the federal la enforcement agencies to 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:12.920 open up provide all the evidence to an independent entity 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:16.600 to be able to conduct that administrative investigation. In the past, 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:20.080 the Offices of Inspector General, Federal Offices of Inspector General 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:22.960 would have been a good candidate for that. They're rather 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:27.000 compromised because of the way that their independence has been 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:30.400 threatened by President Trump, and so I'm not sure that's 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:34.640 an adequate stand in here. In addition to that administrative investigation, 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:39.240 there should be a federal criminal investigation, and specifically, there 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:41.760 should be an investigation to determine whether there were criminal 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:45.320 violations of these individuals' federal civil rights. We know from 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:48.000 the Good killing they decided not to do that, and 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.440 my understanding is that attorneys left the Civil Rights Division 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:54.240 because of that decision. I don't know whether they're rethinking 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:56.840 that they could. People should be pushing them to rethink that. 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:01.000 And the same here with Predi's killing. They could be 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:03.920 doing a criminal investigation to see whether his civil rights 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:06.480 were violated, and there's been no indications that I know 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:08.040 of that they are, but that could change. 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.040 So let me ask you this, because there's been a 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.960 lot of talk about, you know, immunity with the Vice 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:16.240 President coming out last week about Renee goods shooting and 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.520 saying absolute immunity, then backing off a little bit, what 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:23.400 kind of criminal charges could be brought against a federal officer. 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:28.360 So there's not a large body of federal criminal law actually, 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:32.319 so oftentimes the charge, the only charges that are available 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:37.720 at the federal level are charges for violating individuals civil rights. 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.920 So that is definitely something that the federal government could do. 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:46.400 There are also oftentimes when law enforcement agents behave in 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:49.720 this way, they are violating state criminal law. So for example, 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:53.240 in the Derek Chauvin case where Derek Chauvin killed George Floyd, 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:56.520 he was found under state law to have murdered George Floyd, 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:00.000 the state crime of murder. That is much more complicated 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:03.160 when the state is trying to prosecute not a state 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:07.040 or local law enforcement officer, but a federal law enforcement officer. 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:09.920 There is a large body of law that makes it 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:15.320 more complicated and more difficult to prosecute federal law enforcement 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:19.920 officers criminally. For state prosecutors to prosecute federal law enforcement 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:25.400 officers criminally, that said, it's not impossible, and it is 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.680 something that the state appears to be pursuing here, and 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:30.040 they have legal grounds to do so. 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:34.120 The state is sort of in an uphill battle here because, 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.920 you know, the federal government has the initial evidence from 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:42.200 the both scenes and apparently the local officials have said 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.679 that federal officials are refusing to honor a search warrant 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:48.840 that they had to get signed by a judge. So 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.040 the federal government is withholding the information here. 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:57.720 Yes, the federal government is essentially obstructing a criminal investigation, 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:02.319 and that is highly unusual. Normally, federal and state governments 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:06.160 will work together and try to gather evidence, even in deciding, 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.440 like you know, quote unquot who will go first in 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:12.160 terms of prosecuting the individual. But that's not happening here. 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:14.320 And that's why people are right to be concerned that 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:16.240 what the federal government is doing here is trying to 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.320 cover up what actually happened. This is not, you know, 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:23.120 sort of normal protocol. This is them behaving very differently 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:25.080 for reasons that appear to be they don't want anybody 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:27.880 else looking at what actually happened. The good news is 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:29.720 that there is a lot of evidence you can gather 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:33.840 outside of what the federal government is refusing to turn over. 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:36.560 We should be so grateful to the individuals who are 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:39.640 out there filming and providing that ragging the evidence. Who 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:42.560 are willing to testify and talk about what they saw 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:47.440 before and after the cameras were on. That is really 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:51.520 important information that can become evidence right once it's properly 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:54.680 you know, vetted and confirmed. And with these facts, it 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:57.440 seems like you could make a prosecution on that information alone. 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:00.440 Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, you this 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:05.400 conversation with Georgetown law professor Christy Lopez. The Eighth Circuit 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:09.160 Court of Appeals was persuaded to freeze a judge's ruling 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:14.040 that barred retaliation against the public in Minnesota. I'm June Grosso, 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:17.960 and you're listening to Bloomberg. I've been talking to Georgetown 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:21.600 law professor Christy Lopez. She was the Deputy Chief in 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:25.040 the Special Litigation Section of the Civil Rights Division at 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.280 the US Department of Justice and led the pattern or 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:33.120 practice investigations of police departments. Christy, let's turn to the 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.680 courts for a moment, because not just in this case, 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:39.600 but in many cases across the country, there have been 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:46.040 complaints by federal judges that the Trump administration is ignoring orders, 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:49.560 or skirting orders, or you obeying them around the edges, 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:52.800 however you want to describe it. And so the Chief 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:57.960 Federal Judge has demanded the acting head of Ice personally 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:02.680 appear in court on Friday to explain repeated failures to 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:07.280 comply with court orders. This might be a situation where 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:09.760 the federal government might try to fight this. 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:14.000 They could. The federal government has been very disrespectful to 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:18.600 and defining of the federal courts. They're really relying on 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:23.200 the federal courts a sort of deference and a sense 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:26.000 of propriety and hoping that that will keep the federal 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.199 courts from really pushing All courts, but especially federal courts 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:32.720 have long given great difference to federal officials and you know, 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.760 given them chance after chance after chance before actually coming 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:37.800 down them holding it in contempt. They could hold people 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.120 in criminal contempt, but they generally don't do this, and 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:43.360 I think that's largely what the administration is relying on. 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:44.960 I think they also see it as part of their 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.440 brand to be sort of, you know, to be bullying 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:49.160 the courts and to be you know, to show the 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.040 powers is more effective than the rule of law. So 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.120 there's that as well. But I think that what will 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:57.480 make the difference here. I think we are all beginning 0:12:57.480 --> 0:12:59.760 to understand this, and if we didn't already, but what 0:12:59.880 --> 0:13:01.800 is going to make the difference here as public pressure. 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.559 That is what's going to determine whether tod Lions shows 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.720 up in court, whether the administration backs off in this 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:13.120 area of really egregious immigration enforcement as in many other areas. 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:16.800 In the midst of all this turmoil, the Eighth Circuit 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:21.120 Court of Appeals was persuaded by the government to freeze 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:26.319 a judge's ruling that barred immigration officers from retaliating against 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:31.560 the public in Minneapolis, including detaining people who follow agents 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.840 in cars. I thought it was surprising that the Eighth 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:39.760 Circuit froze that judge's order that was intended to maintain 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:40.280 the peace. 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.319 Basically, I agree. I want to be clear, I haven't 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:45.840 read that opinion yet, so I'm happy to check back 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:48.360 in once I have. I agree there doesn't appear to 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.080 be a strong basis, or really any basis to not 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:55.640 allow the district Court's order to take effect. It was 0:13:55.679 --> 0:14:00.560 a very mild order. It was not anywhere near what 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:04.520 the plaintiffs had asked for, and it does little more 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:08.400 than say, no, you really do have to abide by 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.199 the Constitution when you are policing these protests and when 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.400 you are enforcing the immigration law. It's really hard to 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:18.000 see why the eight Circuit wouldn't have allowed that order 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:18.520 to stand. 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.800 Is there another event in our history that resembles what's 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:25.120 happening here in Minnesota? 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:27.880 Yes, I think we've gone through a number of eras 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.800 of our history that resemble what's happening here. I think 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:33.360 in some respects. The one that comes to mind for 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:35.840 a lot of people, and I think is an accurate comparison, 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:39.040 is the Civil rights movement. The difference there was that 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:42.680 in that context, in many ways, the federal government worthy 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:47.680 protectors rather than the primary instigance of violence. It's broadly 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.120 understood that the federal government could have done more to 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.440 protect civil rights protesters and activists than it did, but 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.359 certainly they weren't seen generally speaking, as the primary antagonists 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:02.960 and violators of right, and here that's oddly flipped. You 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.440 see the Minnesota governor sending out the National Guard. You 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:10.560 see the local police, you know, trying to protect individuals 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:14.000 and trying to investigate federal law enforcement who's violating people's rights. 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.960 That I think is fairly unprecedented. So you've seen this 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:21.200 dynamic before of just you know, people trying to speak 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.640 out against injustice, some of the labor strikes from the 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:27.920 late nineteenth century, early twentieth century. You've seen things like that, 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.720 but I don't think we've ever seen anything like this 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:36.520 where you have the federal government, historically the better protectors 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:41.280 of individuals constitutional rights, being the primary violator of those rights, 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:44.760 and state in local governments having to step in and 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:47.040 find a way to try to protect people's rights. 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.400 Yeah, I'm just wondering what the federal government is thinking 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:55.120 when apparently the officers involved in the latest shooting were 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.680 allowed to continue working, but now they've been placed on 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:00.520 administrative life. 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:05.200 It is common practice to put officers who are involved 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:08.840 in shootings, you know, formally on administratively out of any 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.520 public interaction during the course of the investigation, especially where 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:15.840 there's some indication that force might have been unlawful or 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:20.080 a violation of policy. I think the thing to understand here, 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:23.000 and this is really important for people to understand this 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:28.320 administration doesn't actually have a problem with how much their 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.840 immigration law enforcement officers are violating people's rights, how much 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.960 violence they're using the way that they are, you know, 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:38.960 violing people's rights, you know, taking splitting apart families and 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:41.480 sending them far away and leaving them to find their 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:45.760 own way home, knowingly taking people who are here lawfully, 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.040 sometimes who are even citizens, and just you know, we 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:51.880 don't care. Will sometimes say the cruelty is the point, 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.800 and I think that holds here as well. I think 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.840 the cruelty and the violence is the point of how 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:01.080 this enforcement is happening. A year ago, if I'd heard 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:02.600 someone say that, I might have thought that it was 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:06.119 hyperbolic and overly dramatic. But I think that's exactly what 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:11.240 we're seeing. And the only reason that they are starting 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:15.560 to hesitate a bit after this most recent killing is 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:18.479 not because they've had a change of heart. It's because 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:22.600 the country is demonstrating more broadly that they don't like 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.160 what's going on. That is the only thing that's going 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:26.960 to change the way they're acting, because they do not 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.080 think that there's anything wrong with how they're behaving. In fact, 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:35.159 they are intentionally allowing their agents to behave in this 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:38.200 way because they want to instill here in people, because 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:40.840 they want to demonstrate how powerful they are, because they 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:42.680 want to demonstrate how they can violate the law and 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:43.440 get away with it. 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:48.520 Another surprising thing to me was the statements by Christinome, 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:54.639 the DHS secretary, and Baveno that word contradicted by the 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:59.960 video that everyone was seeing. Why say something that's demonstrably false? 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.800 Yes, I think there's two schools of thought on that, 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:04.640 and I think they could both be true in different 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:06.920 ways and perhaps with different people. One school of thought 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.680 is that they're saying things that are false about things 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:13.679 that are on video in the hopes that the people 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.200 who support them or won't ever go watch those videos, right, 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:19.960 and so they'll never find out what actually happened. The 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:23.520 other school of thought is that they are saying things 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:25.720 that are false knowing that they will be shown to 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:29.080 be false, and then able to demonstrate that they're allowed 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.119 to say things that aren't true, that are demonstrably not 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:35.760 true and get away with it anyway. It's part of 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.359 their trying to make people lose hope. Right. Wow, they 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.720 can do something so awful and then lie about it completely, 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:45.320 even though we all can see that's not what happened, 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:48.679 and nothing happens to them, nothing happens to this officer, 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.600 They keep going forward and so if they're able to 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:53.800 get away with that, then they will in fact have 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:57.040 become more powerful. And so that's why it's so important 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:00.240 that people are now actually pushing back, and why the 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:02.280 only thing that's going to change this is more people 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:02.880 pushing back. 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:06.320 More they are demoting, or however you want to call it. 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.680 They're taking Bavino off the scene and sending him back 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:13.800 to the border, and Tom Holman is coming in. Homan 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:18.960 supposedly has a more targeted approach than Bavino, So might 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:23.480 we expect that we'll see less of these aggressive tactics. 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:27.040 I wouldn't rely on that. I think Homan has if 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:28.720 he just based on the things that he's said and 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:31.840 done in the past, he has the exact same violent 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:35.600 and authoritarian tendencies that Bobino did, and so they're just 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.719 switching people around. Bobino is a target right now. You know, 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:41.040 maybe that means something for the long term. It could 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:43.400 just be a short term, you know, until things quiet down. 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:46.240 I don't think people should feel good at all about 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:48.720 Homan coming in. I think they should feel good that 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:50.440 they've had some they've moved the need a little bit 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:54.000 on making the administration do something. But the administration is 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:57.399 going to be waiting to see whether sort of moving 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:01.920 people around will quiet people down. And what again, People 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:05.320 need to keep the pressure on until the actual behavior changes. 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:08.400 And there's nothing about home and the way he thinks 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:10.480 about these issues, the what he has done about these issues, 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:12.359 what he has said about these issues, that said that 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:15.560 he has a demonstrably different approach to immigration enforcement. 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:18.440 Well, thanks so much for joining me today, Christy. That's 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:26.479 Professor Christy Lopez of Georgetown Law. The Trump administration and 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:30.679 the California Republican Party are asking the Supreme Court to 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:34.480 block the state from using its new congressional map that 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:39.680 favors Democrats during this year's midterm elections. A lower court 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.280 said the new map is lawful and can be used 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:45.960 in twenty twenty six, rejecting a bid by the administration 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:49.199 and the California GOP to block the map on the 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:53.119 grounds that it was racially gerrymandered. The request seeks an 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:56.800 emergency order to block the map while the court considers 0:20:56.920 --> 0:20:59.959 a full appeal of the decision. The state of californ 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:04.879 Ffornia has until January twenty ninth to respond. Joining me 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:09.440 is Bloomberg Legal reporter Madelen Mecklberg Madline tell us about 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.920 the California map and what happened in the lower court. 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:18.280 So California decided to redraw its congressional maps after Texas 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:22.760 undertook a similar effort at the request of President Trump. 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:26.280 And the idea behind California's maps is that they are 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:30.600 creating five new districts that will favor Democrats in an 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:33.320 attempt to counteract the five new districts that have been 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:38.159 added in Texas as a result of their redistricting effort. Now, 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:41.240 the maps in California were challenged by the state's Republican 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:44.280 Party and also by the Department of Justice. The Trump 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:48.320 administration and a lower court said that the maps were 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:51.040 allowed to stand for the election. They said that there's 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:54.600 no evidence that they were racially gerrymandered, and that the 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:57.639 effort was a purely political one and therefore the maps 0:21:57.640 --> 0:21:59.600 are valid and should be used this year. 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:02.320 It sort of makes me laugh that the Department of 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:05.720 Justice is challenging this when it was President Trump and 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:10.520 the Trump administration that's been urging Republican states to redraw 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:11.200 their maps. 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:14.439 I think a lot of spectators who've been following this 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:18.720 feel Similarly, it's certainly we wouldn't be here in the 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:22.919 California case if Texas hadn't decided to redraw its maps 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:25.920 at Trump's request. And a lot of the same issues 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:28.760 have been presented in these cases. There's really not a 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.639 lot of daylight between them, and so the arguments are 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:35.119 really similar, and it's yes, definitely interesting to see the 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.560 administration on different sides of each of these cases. 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:42.359 What are the California Republicans saying, because I mean, I 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:47.720 can remember California Governor Gavin Newsom having press conferences where 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:50.639 he was urging them to, you know, we have to 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:53.320 do this in California because they did it in Texas. 0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:56.879