Speaker 1: In October nineteen ninety seven, two overlapping groups of friends
Speaker 1: from New York, one known as the Cream Team, the
Speaker 1: other is the Gods, were living in York, Pennsylvania. Three
Speaker 1: of these young men were Danny Steele, Melvin Bethune, and
Speaker 1: Taysheen Crocker. On October fifth, nineteen ninety seven, at a
Speaker 1: corner dice game, Melvin and Taisheim spoke to another New
Speaker 1: York guy about a previous beef when gunshots rang out
Speaker 1: and the crowd dispersed, but no one was hurt until
Speaker 1: about five minutes later and two blocks away, when a
Speaker 1: young man named Raymond Clark had been fatally shot. When
Speaker 1: the investigation of the murder led to Danny Steele, he
Speaker 1: told the police that Raymond's death was part of a
Speaker 1: larger organized action involving a disagreement between rival New York gangs.
Speaker 1: At the dice game, he alleged that Melvin and Taysheem
Speaker 1: had rounded up some muscle from back in New York,
Speaker 1: including Steel and three others, to confront the opposing gang,
Speaker 1: the Gods. In the lead up to this confrontation, they
Speaker 1: allegedly checked into a motel and hatched a plan that
Speaker 1: allegedly was resulted in the death of Raymond Clark. Clearly,
Speaker 1: local law enforcement had only one choice to believe Danny
Speaker 1: Steele and do their part on the front lines of
Speaker 1: America's war on drugs by taking as many of these
Speaker 1: New York gangsters off their streets as they possibly could.
Speaker 1: But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to ronful Conviction. Today,
Speaker 1: we're going to cover a case in which the soul
Speaker 1: assailant who is responsible for the murder got off with
Speaker 1: less than three years for giving false testimony against two
Speaker 1: innocent men. And I'm going to introduce one of those
Speaker 1: men now. He's calling in from a maximum security prison
Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania. Tayshim, Crocker, even though I hate the reason
Speaker 1: why you're at where you're at, but I got to say,
Speaker 1: I'm really happy and honored to have you.
Speaker 2: I'm glad i'm here. Thank you, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: You're most welcome. And with him is his post conviction
Speaker 1: pro bono attorney, the Tsia Shaviz Free Latsia. Welcome to
Speaker 1: the show.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Jason, You're also very welcome, so tayshim. This crime happened
Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, but you're not from there, originally from the Bronx, right,
Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about your childhood.
Speaker 2: I was born to a teenage mother. My mom was sixteen.
Speaker 2: You know, she wasn't ready to be a mother yet,
Speaker 2: so she picked me in, forced a kid, and I
Speaker 2: spent my first four years out in Queens. It was
Speaker 2: like eighty one. She decided she wanted to be back.
Speaker 2: I moved back to the Bronx. It was rough, we
Speaker 2: were poor. I was pretty much terrified at my mom.
Speaker 2: That was like the only person I was scared of.
Speaker 2: Around the ages twelve, I was back and forced to
Speaker 2: kid and out of her presidence. I just became a.
Speaker 3: Street kid, so tayshim. He had a pretty hard life
Speaker 3: and was living in the Bronx. You know, this is
Speaker 3: at the height of the epidemic. Friends of his are
Speaker 3: literally dying.
Speaker 2: I went after Yo Kia because my best friend has
Speaker 2: just got cute. I was fourteen, he was fifteen, and
Speaker 2: he got cute. The next day, another one of my
Speaker 2: closest friends got cute, and I was off for the
Speaker 2: opportunity to go to York. So I jumped on the
Speaker 2: bus and went out there.
Speaker 1: What did you do to support yourself to survive out there.
Speaker 2: I started hustling. I started taking pass from people older gous.
Speaker 1: So this is the sort of thing where you did
Speaker 1: the dirty work for the older guys because in theory,
Speaker 1: at least a miner wouldn't get into that much trouble, right.
Speaker 2: That's how it goes.
Speaker 3: So it's my understanding that's a pretty low level drug dealer.
Speaker 3: Him and a lot of the kids. He also runs
Speaker 3: with a group of young people known as like the
Speaker 3: Cream Team. And you know, there's several groups, but two
Speaker 3: of them are called the Gods and the other one's
Speaker 3: the Cream Team. The District Attorney's office tried to paint
Speaker 3: this as some gang, but really Cream just means cash
Speaker 3: rules everything around me.
Speaker 1: So they were Wu Tang fans, yes, And I mean
Speaker 1: anyone who's aware of Wu Tang Cash rules everything around
Speaker 1: me is probably there could be their most iconic song
Speaker 1: and terms like gods and earths. Some of the members
Speaker 1: of Wu Tang are really into the theories of the
Speaker 1: five percent nation where those terms come from. And we
Speaker 1: could get into all of that on a totally different podcast.
Speaker 1: But Wu Tang had just come out with their debut album,
Speaker 1: entered the thirty six Chambers in nineteen ninety three. So
Speaker 1: guys like Tayshim and Melbourne that was the soundtrack of
Speaker 1: their childhood.
Speaker 2: The Cream Team and the guys were once of kids
Speaker 2: from the Bronx. We was rolling up together. We went
Speaker 2: to the same schools, Eat pautied together, and we ended
Speaker 2: up in Pennsylvania hustling.
Speaker 1: So were you on the radar of the York Police
Speaker 1: before all of this happened.
Speaker 2: I talked about a week in prison for a couple
Speaker 2: backs in marijuana, and I was like eighteen up there.
Speaker 2: It was like forty.
Speaker 1: Grand, forty fucking grand for some weed. Jesus well, I
Speaker 1: mean this was the nineties when the War on drugs
Speaker 1: was in full swing. It still is, unfortunately with the
Speaker 1: large ETI and if you're listening to us right now,
Speaker 1: you might want to check out our new series called
Speaker 1: The War on Drugs. We're gonna have it linked in
Speaker 1: the bio. Check it out the War on Drugs podcast.
Speaker 1: And back then, as we've seen time and again on
Speaker 1: this program, even involving a low level drug deal and
Speaker 1: could make that person a target for a wrongful conviction.
Speaker 1: So let's get to early October nineteen ninety seven and
Speaker 1: the lead up to this dice game and the shooting,
Speaker 1: there was some actual beef that had started a few
Speaker 1: days before between your co defendant, Melvin Bethune and a
Speaker 1: friend of this guy can Do Smith, and this served
Speaker 1: as an a legend motive for what happened later. But
Speaker 1: this was kind of like a small time beef, right.
Speaker 2: There was no conflict that rose to the level of
Speaker 2: want to take.
Speaker 1: A life right, and Kendo Smith wasn't the victim anyway,
Speaker 1: but rather a guy named Raymond skip Clark, who I'm
Speaker 1: guessing was one of the gods as well.
Speaker 2: No, he wasn't a member of the gods. He wasn't
Speaker 2: even flims with Smith that I know of. Got night.
Speaker 2: No guys were at this dice game except can Do Smith.
Speaker 1: So the states there about a beef between the Gods
Speaker 1: and the Cream team is not holding up so far.
Speaker 1: It's full of holes. But this beef, however, inconsequential, was
Speaker 1: something you intended to bring up with Ken du Smith
Speaker 1: when you saw him at the dice game. This was
Speaker 1: October fifth, nineteen ninety seven, on the corner of Maple
Speaker 1: and Duke in New York, Pennsylvania, where there was a
Speaker 1: regular dice game. Kend Do Smith was there as well
Speaker 1: as Melvin Bethune Danny Steele. You had just got back
Speaker 1: from the Bronx and a bit before eleven pm you
Speaker 1: arrived at the game and Raymond Clarke was there as well.
Speaker 2: I never saw Raymond Clark that man, but according to
Speaker 2: court documents, he was at the dice game. He was
Speaker 2: playing games. I got to the dice game and I
Speaker 2: told the work I needed to talk to him. Before
Speaker 2: we could talk, a shot was fired. He ran and
Speaker 2: I ducked. No one knows who fired that shot. It
Speaker 2: came from behind me. When I ducked and I land,
Speaker 2: you know it was more shots fired. No one was injured.
Speaker 2: Approximately five to ten minutes later and two blocks away,
Speaker 2: according to shots Rush script, bore shots were fire. That
Speaker 2: is who Raymond Clark was shot at out at the
Speaker 2: dunt game.
Speaker 1: So not only had you not even seen the victim
Speaker 1: at the dice game, but at this point you had
Speaker 1: no idea that anyone had even gotten hurt. So shots
Speaker 1: were fired, everyone scattered, total chaos. Did you have a clue?
Speaker 1: Did anyone have a clue why this was even happening?
Speaker 3: There is essentially no serious beef at the time where
Speaker 3: they feel like they should be targeted for any reason.
Speaker 3: But they're taking off because there's gunfire and they know
Speaker 3: what gunfire can do.
Speaker 2: So when they got a hotel.
Speaker 1: But according to the state's theory, you checked into the
Speaker 1: hotel before going to the dice game before Raymond Clark's death,
Speaker 1: sometime between like ten and eleven PM.
Speaker 2: That is what they wanted the jury in the court
Speaker 2: to believe. I checked into the Super eight at about
Speaker 2: twelve thirty one in the morning. I let Mel know
Speaker 2: where I was going, I left there and even where
Speaker 2: I was going, and they spent the night with me.
Speaker 1: And at that point, not only did you not know
Speaker 1: that Skip Clark was dead, but you also didn't know
Speaker 1: that your boy Danny Steele was about to use a
Speaker 1: shared room at the Super eight as a premise for
Speaker 1: a false statement, which really ends up being the basis
Speaker 1: of the state's entire case. And we'll get to that
Speaker 1: in a bit. But first, letitia, what do we know
Speaker 1: about the initial investigation, Like how did they even end
Speaker 1: up coming upon Danny?
Speaker 3: So we have no idea exactly what happened. Ty Shim's lawyer,
Speaker 3: the person who would have gotten the box of evidence
Speaker 3: or whatever he's passed. When we go to Melvin's attorney,
Speaker 3: this is over twenty plus years ago.
Speaker 1: He doesn't have that box, so the usual trough of
Speaker 1: information was not available. But what we do know about
Speaker 1: this incident is that there were a thought of witnesses,
Speaker 1: some of whom spoke with you and your lead investigator,
Speaker 1: Kitty Haley way later in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 3: Well, what we find out later is that Raymond Clark
Speaker 3: he's found with drugs on his person, and it is
Speaker 3: noted that he apparently owed Danny Steele some money.
Speaker 2: Turns out maybe I think like a week after that,
Speaker 2: Danny was interrogated, and.
Speaker 1: At least four people have testified both the trial and
Speaker 1: in post conviction that Danny Steele was the shooter. So
Speaker 1: that should have been it, but instead a story at
Speaker 1: a strategy was being concocted with Danny Steele in order
Speaker 1: to drag more people down the rabbit hole with him,
Speaker 1: turning this tragedy into an opportunity for the authorities to
Speaker 1: sweep the streets from those they considered undesirable, namely Melvin
Speaker 1: and Taysheen, who for months went about their lives eventually
Speaker 1: hearing about Raymond Clark's death and having no idea that
Speaker 1: one of their friends, Danny, was saving himself from life
Speaker 1: in prison at their expense by creating this phony narrative
Speaker 1: in which members of the Cream team met at the
Speaker 1: Super eight Motel and conspired to confront the Gods at
Speaker 1: this dice game about the beef with Melvin. And this
Speaker 1: group allegedly included Tayshim, Melvin, Danny, and three other men
Speaker 1: from New York, one of whom was named Corleone.
Speaker 2: Coleon was a made up figure Danny Steele made up
Speaker 2: so he could tend this homicide on somebody he made
Speaker 2: on a shooter.
Speaker 3: It's like they sat around and watched The Godfather and
Speaker 3: then went and tried a case. That's how it feels.
Speaker 3: Some guy named Corleone who's never been identified, and some
Speaker 3: other guys from New York, they all go to the
Speaker 3: Super eight Motel and they want blood for what happened
Speaker 3: to Melvin yesterday. Melvin was disrespected or something, and they
Speaker 3: want blood. So they're all going to get guns from
Speaker 3: a friend's house and then they're going to go down
Speaker 3: there and shoot up the Gods at a dice game.
Speaker 1: Now, The theory continued that in order to arrive at
Speaker 1: the Dice Game before the shootings took place around eleven
Speaker 1: thirty pm, this alleged crew of Muscle from the Bronx
Speaker 1: had to have checked into the Super eight Motel by
Speaker 1: ten thirty PM or earlier in order to have time
Speaker 1: for a thirty to sixty minute plotting session as well
Speaker 1: as picking up the guns. But when they arrived at
Speaker 1: the Dice Game, Tayshim allegedly pointed a gun to Kendu
Speaker 1: Smith and tried to shoot him, but the gun allegedly
Speaker 1: malfunctioned and didn't fire, so the rest of this alleged
Speaker 1: team hit squad open fire and everyone at the Dice
Speaker 1: Game ran for their lives. No one was hurt, and
Speaker 1: Ken Dusmith has since gone on the record saying that
Speaker 1: Tayshen never pulled a gun on him. Other eyewitnesses also
Speaker 1: corroborated that the only evidence of this version events is
Speaker 1: Danny Steele's statement, which continued saying that then he another
Speaker 1: man and this fictitious guy named Corleone chased Raymond skip Clark,
Speaker 1: and this fictional Corleone guy, not Danny Steele, allegedly shot
Speaker 1: and killed Clark. So that's how Steele shifted total blame
Speaker 1: from himself and alleged that he was just a co conspirator,
Speaker 1: not the loan shooter.
Speaker 3: Now, Danny Steele, this is important. He has charged with
Speaker 3: the exact same crimes as Melvin and Tysheen, so you
Speaker 3: would think he'd get the exact same punishment or close
Speaker 3: for murder. For conspiracy to commit murder, he did two
Speaker 3: years in the county jail, presumably because he couldn't go
Speaker 3: to state prison because you know, he was a known snip.
Speaker 1: From what I understand, he had also been convicted of
Speaker 1: perjury twice before. So this is the guy on whom
Speaker 1: the entirety of the state's case rests and what they
Speaker 1: used to issue arrest warrants for both Melbourne and Taysheem.
Speaker 1: And at the time, Melvin had just pled guilty to
Speaker 1: some unrelated drug charges.
Speaker 3: Correct. He takes a plea and he's getting ready to
Speaker 3: go to prison, and the police come to let him
Speaker 3: know that he's been indicted on these charges, and he's
Speaker 3: just shocked. There's no conversation. They don't take him down
Speaker 3: to the police station and interview him.
Speaker 1: They had all the information they wanted from Danny Steele. Now, tyshim,
Speaker 1: you were back in New York at the time, and
Speaker 1: during a routine traffic stop, NYPD discovered that you were
Speaker 1: wanted in New York, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2: No Manchila got arrested, that I was a fugitive. I
Speaker 2: got picked up January nineteen ninety eight and forty fifth
Speaker 2: feet with twenty seventh and eighth Avenue. I was arrested
Speaker 2: and I haven't been on a street service. And while
Speaker 2: PD picks me up, I'm extradited down to York where
Speaker 2: I was charged.
Speaker 3: When he gets to York and he's in the County jail,
Speaker 3: there's no interview. The information and the story has already
Speaker 3: been told by Danny Steele. But there's literally a fifteen
Speaker 3: minute drive at one point from one drop off location
Speaker 3: to the jail with a police officer.
Speaker 2: Dennis Williams was the arresting detective. While he's driving me
Speaker 2: to the York County prison, he said, I know you
Speaker 2: didn't kill Rainey Clock, but I do know you're part
Speaker 2: of the Cream team. I can get you a deal
Speaker 2: if you cooperate, And I told him I didn't know
Speaker 2: nothing innocent. A few months after that, They offered me
Speaker 2: another deal five to ten, and I turned that down.
Speaker 2: The day trial started, they offered me another deal if
Speaker 2: they were going to dismiss all degrees of homicide if
Speaker 2: I played guilty's in aggravated, and so chunk that down.
Speaker 2: Dennis Williams Bull should be the deal. A dandy deal
Speaker 2: ended up kidting.
Speaker 1: Danny Steele did less than three years in the county jail.
Speaker 1: That's jail, right, not prison, And that was part of
Speaker 1: his deal to avoid running into other people who he
Speaker 1: had flipped on previously. And so no one was ever
Speaker 1: charged with being skipped. Clark's shooter Corleone certainly wasn't. It's
Speaker 1: hard to charge a ghost after all. And now all
Speaker 1: three of you had been charged with murder, but only
Speaker 1: by way of conspiracy and accomplished liability. And this is
Speaker 1: why your arrival time at the Super eight motel is
Speaker 1: so important to the state's theory, as is the part
Speaker 1: of Danny Steele's testilize where he alleged that you drew
Speaker 1: a gun on Kendo Smith that never did fire.
Speaker 3: So conspiracy liability requires proof of an agreement or a
Speaker 3: common design to commit the lawful act for which the
Speaker 3: person is convicted. So a person cannot be convicted of
Speaker 3: conspiracy from merely being present during the commission of a crime.
Speaker 3: There has to be some step taken, some proof of
Speaker 3: the agreement, you know, and then obviously the crime. For
Speaker 3: accomplass liability, it requires more than mere presence during the
Speaker 3: commission of a criminal act, even if the accused knew
Speaker 3: that the crime was to be committed. So we see
Speaker 3: like accomplss liability like after the fact, you know, someone
Speaker 3: who's helping to conceal or clean something up. So these
Speaker 3: are really what tayshim as well as Melvin were convicted under. Also,
Speaker 3: you know, a lot of that prosecutorial case led on
Speaker 3: something called transferred intent, which basically means if I pull
Speaker 3: out a gun and I'm trying to shoot you, but
Speaker 3: I accidentally shoot your friend or someone's standing next to you,
Speaker 3: you know, it would have been attempted murder because I
Speaker 3: purposefully knowingly was aiming at you. But it's still first
Speaker 3: degree murder even though I had no intention of killing
Speaker 3: your friend, because the intention had already formed. And so
Speaker 3: throughout the trial we'll hear of transferred intent in those transcripts.
Speaker 1: So because you were alleged to have met beforehand, establishing
Speaker 1: the intent, and then followed through with your part of
Speaker 1: the supposed conspiracy by allegedly pulling a gun on Ken
Speaker 1: du Smith that then made you, in turn responsible in
Speaker 1: some degree for the murder of Skip Clark, the alleged
Speaker 1: end result of this alleged organized confrontation.
Speaker 2: I do, I end it. I didn't realize what conspiracy
Speaker 2: laws accomplished liability was. I didn't realize when you moved
Speaker 2: pieces on a chessboard to Atlanta, the way you want
Speaker 2: it to be seen, you can make something look like
Speaker 2: something that it wasn't. We were kids, you know, in
Speaker 2: our adversary we used for chrome, men seasoned, you know,
Speaker 2: politicians prosecuted. And I did not realize what was going
Speaker 2: on until it was too.
Speaker 1: Late, that they had fabricated a narrative with Danny Steele
Speaker 1: to convict you through these conspiracy and accomplished liability laws
Speaker 1: that you were unaware of. So Melvin was already in
Speaker 1: prison for the unrelated drug charges, so he didn't bond out,
Speaker 1: but neither did you. You both were being held separately
Speaker 1: from Danny Steele, but at this point you didn't even
Speaker 1: know about what he had done. Right, So when did
Speaker 1: you first realize what he was doing to you?
Speaker 2: The first time I see him is at my preliminary here,
Speaker 2: and he's testifying against me. You know, he's saying that
Speaker 2: I'm the leader of the Cream team that prior to
Speaker 2: the Dice Game shooting, that we met at a motel
Speaker 2: and agreed to kill someone. Actually at the preliminary here
Speaker 2: when he said we agreed to step to these guys
Speaker 2: to try to squash this beef. With the proceedings, his testimony,
Speaker 2: you know, would constantly change and get more dramatic and
Speaker 2: more incriminating.
Speaker 3: There were a lot of inconsistencies in the telling of
Speaker 3: these various stories by Danny Steele, but there wasn't necessarily
Speaker 3: a rigorous, vigorous defense from Taishim's counsel. Melvin's council, when
Speaker 3: looking at the transcript, tended to do a better job right.
Speaker 1: Both families had hired counsel prior to the January ninety
Speaker 1: nine trial, but only Melvin's family was able to pay
Speaker 1: and maintain counsel.
Speaker 2: So this attorney that was representing me at the time,
Speaker 2: Allen Smith, you know, he was never paid him full
Speaker 2: and he thought the motion to withdraws council. I didn't
Speaker 2: know that. I could have still been getting counsel by
Speaker 2: the state, which probably would have been a bad attorney anyway,
Speaker 2: as bad as he was. But he never did nothing
Speaker 2: after that, after the judge told him the motion was denied,
Speaker 2: we countinue to proceed to trial without an investigation of
Speaker 2: what going on.
Speaker 1: So it sounds like you didn't even have an attorney.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I didn't have an attorney. I didn't have a suit,
Speaker 2: I didn't have shoes, I didn't have family, I didn't
Speaker 2: have an attorney.
Speaker 3: Tayshiem would come to the courthouse not a suit, but
Speaker 3: in an orange jumpsuit. So this was not, you know,
Speaker 3: someone being able to put forth their best defense, and.
Speaker 1: In order to combat the state, especially with what we
Speaker 1: now know that they were willing to hide, you were
Speaker 1: going to need a vigorous investigation from zealous attorneys and
Speaker 1: a whole team that would have done things like carul
Speaker 1: Ken do Smith to the stand. He has since gone
Speaker 1: on the record that you did not, in fact point
Speaker 1: to gun at him, which directly contradicts the state's narratives. Now,
Speaker 1: how your counsel didn't at least contact can do is
Speaker 1: just it's irresponsible and desire it. It's disgusting, actually. But
Speaker 1: even more bizarre is how Danny Steele did something on
Speaker 1: the stand that even I've never heard of before.
Speaker 3: Throughout the trial, he kept mentioning that, you know, he
Speaker 3: was incentivized, that he's hoping, he's hoping that the prosecutors
Speaker 3: do right by him and only give him two to
Speaker 3: five years in the county. And that's exactly what they
Speaker 3: give him.
Speaker 1: He literally told the judge and jury why his own
Speaker 1: statement was unreliable. He's like, I'm receiving a benefit for
Speaker 1: lying here. He's spelling it out. Now, how are they
Speaker 1: supposed to trust anything he said? But they did. I
Speaker 1: can't get over this, and we already went over what
Speaker 1: Steele said before the shooting At the dice game, he
Speaker 1: plays Taysheem Melvin, himself and three other guys, including this
Speaker 1: Corleone character, at the Super eight motel between ten and
Speaker 1: eleven PM for this conspiracy meeting, and the manager of
Speaker 1: the Super eight guy named Alfred Milburn, corroborated this. Why
Speaker 1: we're not sure because the clerk who actually checked Taysheim
Speaker 1: into the hotel, the person who actually knew this information
Speaker 1: was a woman named Terry Flinch boss Siler and what
Speaker 1: she told police directly and totally contradicted Albert Milburn's phony narrative.
Speaker 3: She's the one who checks Tyshi Min. She knows this now.
Speaker 3: Raymond Clark dies at eleven thirty pm that night, That's
Speaker 3: when he's shot. We know this for a fact. She
Speaker 3: doesn't come on until eleven pm.
Speaker 1: Right. The state spoke to her, but they didn't want
Speaker 1: to hear about how Tayshiim checked it at twelve thirty
Speaker 1: one o'clock in the morning at this conspiracy meeting. In fact,
Speaker 1: that never took place.
Speaker 3: She tried to offer help and they didn't want to
Speaker 3: hear it. She had documents, you know, where he signed,
Speaker 3: as well as any telephone calls he would have made
Speaker 3: out of that room because it's the nineties, and they
Speaker 3: could have turned that over to Tayshim's lawyers, and that
Speaker 3: never happened.
Speaker 1: And perhaps these documents the telephone records may have also
Speaker 1: been timestamped.
Speaker 3: Miss Flinch boss Siler says that the records she maintained
Speaker 3: for the hotel have a bottom section which indicates the
Speaker 3: exact times the calls made from each room, So it's
Speaker 3: not known if the police or prosecutors were in possession
Speaker 3: of that part of the document, But the documents used
Speaker 3: at trial were the only ones that she was asked
Speaker 3: to review that she was asked to talk about. And
Speaker 3: they don't have the exact times the calls made.
Speaker 1: And no one from the defense went looking for call logs.
Speaker 1: It's totally irresponsible. I mean, have been helpful to know
Speaker 1: what time the calls were made, but that specifically wasn't
Speaker 1: in the documents used by the state of trial. And
Speaker 1: from what I understand, they deliberately limited Terry Flinch boss
Speaker 1: Siler's testimony.
Speaker 3: She was told by the prosecutors, you're not allowed to speak.
Speaker 3: You're going to answer yes or no to my questions.
Speaker 1: Right. They were merely trying to establish that a phone
Speaker 1: call had taken place, but they specifically did not want
Speaker 1: to know when, and they definitely didn't want to know
Speaker 1: when her shift started or when Tyshim, Melvin and Danny
Speaker 1: would checked in because that would have blown up their case.
Speaker 1: They knew about Terry and these phone records, so it
Speaker 1: looks like they knew that they were presenting false testimony. Now,
Speaker 1: the phone call was important to them because it corroborated
Speaker 1: Melvin's presence at the alleged conspiracy meeting. It was alleged
Speaker 1: that he had called his girlfriend at the time, Na've
Speaker 1: Tucker Redmond, and told her what his intention was, which
Speaker 1: was to go down to the dice game and shoot
Speaker 1: up the gods. It was also alleged that a fourteen
Speaker 1: year old girl named Nicky Rhodes overheard this conversation. The
Speaker 1: state made a number of false statements during opening and
Speaker 1: closing that they never backed up by calling these alleged
Speaker 1: witnesses Tucker and Nicki.
Speaker 3: Our investigator was able to speak with Talker, so she
Speaker 3: was dating Melvin. She did speak with him that night.
Speaker 3: She never told the prosecutor or the police that Melvin
Speaker 3: was interested in hurting or shooting up the young men
Speaker 3: on the corner plane craps. When she discovered what the prosecutor,
Speaker 3: specifically Prosecutor Kelly, had said in open court, she was
Speaker 3: not present at the time, but she became incensed to
Speaker 3: learn that he claimed she came to court willingly she
Speaker 3: was subpoenaed to come to court, and that he had
Speaker 3: lied about what she had heard and said that evening.
Speaker 3: When she discovered that the prosecutor, during a Sidebar had
Speaker 3: told the judge that her conversation was overheard and passed
Speaker 3: along by Nicki Rhodes. She proclaimed that also to be alive.
Speaker 3: Niki confirmed that she had no knowledge of the interaction
Speaker 3: between Melvin Bethune and talker Redman on the of the
Speaker 3: shooting of Skip Clark. She was adamant that she was
Speaker 3: a younger at the time with no knowledge of anything
Speaker 3: related to the crime. She did not testify, and she
Speaker 3: was not asked to testify.
Speaker 1: I guess the state strategy was, if you're going to lie,
Speaker 1: go big, and they were able to hide those lies
Speaker 1: from these alleged witnesses because witnesses aren't typically allowed to
Speaker 1: sit in court to watch the proceedings, but here it
Speaker 1: seems this rule was a convenient way to hide them
Speaker 1: from what was being said about them. Like Kalanda Chance,
Speaker 1: who had told the police that she had been at
Speaker 1: the scene earlier in the evening but left prior to
Speaker 1: the shooting. I knew nothing about it. Now, what did
Speaker 1: she tell your investigator? Kitty Hayley. In twenty twenty one.
Speaker 3: Klanda Chance she was provided with a copy of the
Speaker 3: trial transcript and was upset to read that the prosecutor
Speaker 3: was attempting to tie her into a web of lies
Speaker 3: about Melvin wanting to shoot up men on the corner.
Speaker 3: She never knew about the plan to use her as
Speaker 3: a link between Taker Redman's conversation and the actual shooting.
Speaker 3: She further claimed that the prosecutors were trying to make
Speaker 3: two groups of friends, the Cream Team and the Guards,
Speaker 3: look like a hardened criminal gang, even though that was
Speaker 3: not so.
Speaker 1: But even if you want to believe that these two
Speaker 1: groups were hardened criminal organizations help ent on destroying the
Speaker 1: otherwise decent, hardworking town of York, Pennsylvania, the evidence simply
Speaker 1: doesn't support the state's theory. Terry flinch buss Siler was
Speaker 1: the clerk who checked Taishim into the Super eight, and
Speaker 1: her shift started at eleven PM, So even if he
Speaker 1: was waiting there for her shift to start before he
Speaker 1: checked in, there's just not enough time to check in.
Speaker 1: The Cream Team have a thirty minute to an hour
Speaker 1: long meeting to conspire about confronting the Gods. Go to
Speaker 1: another dress to pick up the guns, go to the
Speaker 1: dice game, shoot up the place, and then chase down
Speaker 1: and kill Raven Skip Clark by eleven thirty do all
Speaker 1: that shit in thirty minutes.
Speaker 2: It's impossible, and they knew it was impossible, but they
Speaker 2: went with the dewy and the judge told the jilly
Speaker 2: that is Ty wasn't at that motel prior to the shooting.
Speaker 2: Toy couldnot be cal guilty as or a copysprumity in
Speaker 2: this case. But while I was on trial, I didn't
Speaker 2: have the information I'm in possession from now right.
Speaker 1: They did, though, and the state used testimony that they
Speaker 1: knew was false in order to trick the jury into
Speaker 1: believing that this alleged conspiracy meeting was both plausible and real,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure Danny's admission to his involvement acted as
Speaker 1: a stamp of legitimacy. Then they alluded to this alleged
Speaker 1: phone confession from Melvin that was never actually confirmed or corroborated,
Speaker 1: and the jury bought at Lockstock and Barrel. They convicted
Speaker 1: you both and sentenced you to life in prison.
Speaker 2: I watched Melvin cry after we was convicted. I cried, didn't.
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it. I was in disbelief. I didn't
Speaker 2: even know we could get life because we didn't kill anybody.
Speaker 2: No I'm not telling this story yet. Living this story.
Speaker 2: Prison there's something different than everybody. You know. It's like
Speaker 2: a hospital, it's like a hotel. It's like a hideout.
Speaker 2: It's like a hangout. It's like a hostage situation. It's
Speaker 2: the word so being awfully convicted. It's about us fun.
Speaker 2: It's falling off twenty story building. It's kind of struggle.
Speaker 2: When I grew up in prison as a smarting little kid.
Speaker 2: I hate to head today as much as I did
Speaker 2: the first day. You never get used to it. There's
Speaker 2: nothing more urgent than in freedom. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna look at myself like a hostage fighting give
Speaker 2: back to my family.
Speaker 3: Well, then trying to make peace with the fact that
Speaker 3: he has a son he'll never watch grow up, that
Speaker 3: he's going to be spending the rest of his life
Speaker 3: in a prison for a crime he didn't come. I
Speaker 3: don't believe Melvin has ever received legal help. Maybe one
Speaker 3: time for a post conviction relief. I don't know that
Speaker 3: he learned to use the law library and advocate for
Speaker 3: himself like tayshim did.
Speaker 2: Every weeged moment. I'm fighting for my life and it
Speaker 2: was giving me the worst attorneys. You know, my first
Speaker 2: attorney was sleeping in the same prison I was in
Speaker 2: for the US when he dropped the bull. They gave
Speaker 2: me another lawyer. She was helpful, but she was in
Speaker 2: over her hair because her expertise was social security claims,
Speaker 2: so it was really me. I had to learn the
Speaker 2: law myself.
Speaker 1: So you've taught yourself the law, as we often see
Speaker 1: as absolutely necessary for our guests to do, and you
Speaker 1: also saw it outside help like investigators and lawyers, and
Speaker 1: you've been funding that by writing and selling books. Who
Speaker 1: are you, dude? That's amazing. I mean, I see you've
Speaker 1: written eight books.
Speaker 2: I've written fifteen books. I got eight published. They're all
Speaker 2: available for purchase.
Speaker 1: I just received, by the way, your latest book. It's
Speaker 1: called It Could Happen to any of Us, and that's
Speaker 1: like a mantra of mine. So I'm really looking forward
Speaker 1: to reading it, and we're gonna make sure to link
Speaker 1: your books in the bio. This is how you've been
Speaker 1: funding your fight for freedom, and I hope our audience
Speaker 1: will show their support. So let's talk about that fight.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that you had some Appella attorneys that were
Speaker 1: about as useless as your original trialawyer, and in Pennsylvania
Speaker 1: post conviction, I'm not so sure it matters if the
Speaker 1: lawyers are bet or not, since the post conviction statutes
Speaker 1: make the fight even more difficult than usual. Now, if
Speaker 1: I understand this correctly, you can find new evidence, even
Speaker 1: Brady material, But if that evidence could have possibly been found,
Speaker 1: that means it was available to you, and therefore it
Speaker 1: cannot be considered new evidence. For example, since the Super
Speaker 1: eight clerk Terry Flinch Boss Siler was alive and available
Speaker 1: to be questioned, what she has to say is not
Speaker 1: considered new evidence, And the fact that the state didn't
Speaker 1: share it doesn't make it a Brady violation because you
Speaker 1: could have discovered it on your own or your lawyer
Speaker 1: could have, which sounds fucking absurd. And then in this
Speaker 1: case they were code defendants. If Melvin had an attorney
Speaker 1: who litigated something already, the issue can't be raised. So
Speaker 1: options run out very quickly, and doors keep closing, and
Speaker 1: you've been met with denial after denial, even though you've
Speaker 1: amassed a formidable case for actual incense.
Speaker 2: And in two thousand and three I found out that
Speaker 2: Danny still had a secret deal with the Commonwealth. The
Speaker 2: two and a half to five. So I found my
Speaker 2: first PCRA on my own in two thousand and three.
Speaker 2: I was unsuccessful because they said that this information was
Speaker 2: in the public domain and that I could have voted
Speaker 2: in the first pcl the council PCLA with the attorney
Speaker 2: they gave me, who never read the record, never interviewed me,
Speaker 2: never tried to interview anybody.
Speaker 1: See, this is the kind of bullshit I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: Since the information was in the public domain, meaning that
Speaker 1: it existed among all the information in the world and
Speaker 1: wasn't being kept under lock and key, then it was
Speaker 1: technically in the public domain during his first post conviction
Speaker 1: motion and his counsel didn't find it and build a
Speaker 1: motion around it. So then the issue cannot be raised again.
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say. And then there's
Speaker 1: only a certain amount of time that it can be raised.
Speaker 2: The judge felt like this information was in the public
Speaker 2: domain between the time of need filing it and whin
Speaker 2: though close him on my first pc out right, and.
Speaker 1: In Pennsylvania back then, you'd only get sixty days since legislation.
Speaker 2: You know, it's three hundred and sixty five days now.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's really fucking generous. I mean, who does
Speaker 1: legislation like that serve or punished? Think about it. It's
Speaker 1: not like people who are dead to rights guilty are
Speaker 1: making credible cases for actual innocence, or at least not likely.
Speaker 1: So shutting the door on these post conviction motions pretty
Speaker 1: much solely kept the innocent incarcerated. Since that time, though
Speaker 1: that legislation has changed.
Speaker 2: The presumption and knowledge is no longer a reason to
Speaker 2: foreclose your post conviction motion twenty years ago it was.
Speaker 1: Today, it's not so much good it does for you though.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you can't go back retroactivity. You can't go
Speaker 2: back and feature which already happened.
Speaker 1: So after appealing your denials in two thousand and three
Speaker 1: in the state courts, you went federal.
Speaker 2: Got challenged my conviction on the federal level because of
Speaker 2: our constitutional rights. I made, you know, the two major
Speaker 2: issues was that the trial court gave the wrong jury
Speaker 2: instruction as it applied to accomplished liability, and the second
Speaker 2: issue was an effective assistic counsel for FAIE to investigate.
Speaker 2: Those were my two strongest issues, and after two and
Speaker 2: a half years, three years, I filed my own hate too.
Speaker 2: But it was eventually denied.
Speaker 1: He then filed your fourth PCRA petition in twenty twelve
Speaker 1: because Danny Steele recanted his trial testimony. Yeah, you heard
Speaker 1: that right. Danny Steele was finally doing the right thing.
Speaker 2: He sent me an affter David stating that he had
Speaker 2: been pressing to give false testimony that he had witnessed
Speaker 2: need could have done to do work's head and pull
Speaker 2: the trigger. He also testified about the fake motel meeting,
Speaker 2: and he was ultimately found to be incredible because he
Speaker 2: was no longer in jeopardy from the common Wealth, but
Speaker 2: he was still allegedly in jeopardy from his co defendants.
Speaker 1: You and Melvin, who were both locked up for life
Speaker 1: while he's out there doing whatever he's doing, living the dream.
Speaker 1: You know what I find incredible, The fucking balls on
Speaker 1: these judges, I mean, unfucking believable. The only evidence in
Speaker 1: the case, besides the Super eight manager who we know
Speaker 1: didn't know his ass from his elbow, the only evidence
Speaker 1: is Danny Steele's word, which apparently no longer matters. I
Speaker 1: guess if anyone could be a good judge of Danny's credibility, though,
Speaker 1: it'd be the guys who cooked up the lines with
Speaker 1: him to begin with.
Speaker 2: Both of the prosecutors also testified that they ain't seem
Speaker 2: to stand that day. It said if he testified falsely,
Speaker 2: it was something he chose to do. They didn't encourage
Speaker 2: them to do it. So he found them to be
Speaker 2: more credible than Danny Steal.
Speaker 1: So now you find a way to bolster the recantation.
Speaker 1: You got in touch with Kendu Smith, like your trial
Speaker 1: attorney should have done in the first place, and he
Speaker 1: was finally ready to corroborate Thisanny Steele's recantation. So that
Speaker 1: was the focus of your last of your PCRRA petitions
Speaker 1: filed in August twenty fifteen, and evidentiary hearing was held
Speaker 1: in August twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2: And at this evidence here Jim Delle Smith shows up
Speaker 2: and he testifies on the oath that Chad never put
Speaker 2: a machine gun in my head and pulled the trigger.
Speaker 2: And I don't know why Danny Steel made that up.
Speaker 2: Had it happened, I wouldn't be here to day saying
Speaker 2: it didn't.
Speaker 1: Happen, right, Why would he be standing up for his
Speaker 1: attempted murderer in court. So this adds legitimacy to his testimony,
Speaker 1: which transfers legitimacy to Danny Steele's recantation, and this would
Speaker 1: qualify as new evidence in other states, but not in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: This was denied as untimely because this witness was available
Speaker 1: at the time of trial. It's like running into a
Speaker 1: brick wall over and over again. Now, meanwhile, at this time,
Speaker 1: a chain of events began evolving. Melbourne's son. Now this
Speaker 1: must have been right after this evidentiary hearing, maybe twenty seventeen,
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, something really bad happened, and then that thing
Speaker 1: was almost made even worse.
Speaker 3: Can you explain Guess who gets found shot multiple times
Speaker 3: in his car? Danny Steele. I mean, he's just riddled
Speaker 3: with bullets. York County decides that Melvin Bethune's own son,
Speaker 3: who grew up without his father, was the person who
Speaker 3: killed Danny Steele, that he was so angry about him
Speaker 3: allegedly perjuring himself naming his father, that he decided to
Speaker 3: lie in wait and kill Danny Steele. Well, Melvin Bethune's
Speaker 3: son decided to take this thing to trial, and he prevailed.
Speaker 3: He was found not guilty, and Danny Steele is dead.
Speaker 3: Which is very sad, of course, but there are many
Speaker 3: people who may have harbored very bad feelings towards Danny Steele.
Speaker 1: I mean, I wouldn't blame Melvin's son if he was
Speaker 1: angry with Danny Steele. How I'm angry with Danny Stele
Speaker 1: deal even posthumously. But that doesn't mean that Melvin's Sun
Speaker 1: murdered anybody. I mean, I don't know all the details,
Speaker 1: so I won't comment on the investigation of the prosecution.
Speaker 1: I do hope that things have changed significantly in yourk
Speaker 1: County since the time they wromply convicted Melbourne. But at
Speaker 1: the very least, I'm glad one of the Bethunes appears
Speaker 1: to have had a competent attorney which was also on
Speaker 1: the horizon from Melvin and Taishim. One of your advocates,
Speaker 1: Omar Jannette, was instrumental in getting you the competent attorney
Speaker 1: who we have with us today, the Tsia Shaviz Free
Speaker 1: and apparently it started off as a change dot org
Speaker 1: petition that put you on the radar of the NS's
Speaker 1: Project of Pennsylvania when Letsia just happened to be looking
Speaker 1: for some pro bono work and reached out to them.
Speaker 3: And so I contacted Benison's Project and they gave me
Speaker 3: this case. I collected every record I possibly could, and
Speaker 3: of course I realized that Melvin Bethune was also behind
Speaker 3: bars for the same crime as Taysheim. And that is
Speaker 3: about the time where I hire Kitty Hayley. She went
Speaker 3: back in time. Essentially, she spent weeks and weeks in
Speaker 3: York and talked to you know, people who knew all
Speaker 3: of the players involved Kendo. You know, Bethune's girlfriend, the victim,
Speaker 3: Raymond Clark's mother, Katy Haley, went to New York and
Speaker 3: went and sat with this woman on more than one
Speaker 3: occasion and talked to her about her son and what
Speaker 3: he meant to her. And we have an alpha David.
Speaker 3: She literally said that the prosecutors and she named them,
Speaker 3: told her that Danny Steele was responsible for the murder
Speaker 3: of her son. But they won as many gang members
Speaker 3: as possible off these streets, and so they're going to
Speaker 3: get all three of them. And they're not given Danny
Speaker 3: Steele a deal. They're not doing that. He's going to
Speaker 3: get the same amount of time as the others. Well,
Speaker 3: that's not what happened.
Speaker 1: You know, I didn't think there was room for these
Speaker 1: prosecutors to get any less likable, but trust me, there
Speaker 1: is even more room. And as we've already discussed, Kitty
Speaker 1: Haley spoke to all the women who the prosecutors lied about,
Speaker 1: a trial talker Redmond, Klonda Chance, and of course the
Speaker 1: fourteen year old girl Nikki Rhodes. Then she spoke with
Speaker 1: Terry Flinch boys Syler, and we know that she discovered
Speaker 1: the Terry began her shift at eleven PM and checked
Speaker 1: Taishim into the Super eight well after Skip Clark had
Speaker 1: already died, which means this entire case just fell apart.
Speaker 2: So I meet Kitty Harley the beginning at twenty twenty one,
Speaker 2: and it was feeling for me when she said, you know,
Speaker 2: you've been telling the same story for twenty years. It
Speaker 2: felt good. But Kitty Harley gets out there in the field.
Speaker 2: She speaks to Terry and the motel clerk from the
Speaker 2: Superley motel, and she adamantly states that she told the
Speaker 2: prostitution that this theory was flawed, that I could not
Speaker 2: have been there any time prior to eleven PM. They
Speaker 2: said I was there at ten TM, but you know
Speaker 2: where I was at at ten PM all my way
Speaker 2: back from New York. I was on the highway at
Speaker 2: tim TM and she also made one the same statement
Speaker 2: and the feature she said that ever instant they presented
Speaker 2: at my trial, something was missing and then it had
Speaker 2: to be detached, that it was ripped off. The ripped
Speaker 2: DOLF piece is called the bottom of a folio, a
Speaker 2: folio that contains information they would have told whoever wanted
Speaker 2: to see it, exactly what time the room was in it,
Speaker 2: if and when any calls were made, how long the
Speaker 2: calls were, and where they went to. The jury never
Speaker 2: got an opportunity to see this. The defense was never
Speaker 2: in the possession of this, and I didn't even know
Speaker 2: it existed until Kitty Haley furnished the legal team with
Speaker 2: her conclusions in these statements.
Speaker 3: And so presumably those documents are sitting in the District
Speaker 3: Attorney's office today and that's what we're fighting for to get.
Speaker 3: But also, this woman has signing out of David. She's
Speaker 3: willing to come in. And this woman doesn't know anybody,
Speaker 3: She has no skin in the game.
Speaker 2: If an uninterested objective party witness is telling you that
Speaker 2: this serious flawed, and you decide to perpetuate this fraud
Speaker 2: and allow for it to go uncorrected for twenty something years.
Speaker 2: Based on my studies, this would be considered deliberate and
Speaker 2: willful deception.
Speaker 1: No words could do this injustice, any justice. So now
Speaker 1: that we've heard everything that Kitty dug up, you all
Speaker 1: were able to petition the courts based on this evidence,
Speaker 1: and they said that this was litigated by Melvin back
Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven and it was denied back
Speaker 1: then as untimely because Terry Flinchboss Silo was available to
Speaker 1: testify at trial, so this couldn't be considered new evidence
Speaker 1: and most certainly was past the deadline. And I mean
Speaker 1: what we're seeing in this case over and over again
Speaker 1: is ineffective assistance at trial.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it all comes down to the beginning stages trial.
Speaker 2: So at trial, I had a lawyer who had checked
Speaker 2: out on me. But the beautiful thing is he did
Speaker 2: file a Brady He wrote the action for everything that
Speaker 2: was shoping. Soley we know today that they would have
Speaker 2: some information that was requested.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's always been a solid case for Brady
Speaker 1: violations and ineffective assistance here, but so far, I don't
Speaker 1: think it's a stretch to say that you have been
Speaker 1: failed not only by your attorneys along the way, but
Speaker 1: by the entire judicial system. I understand you have plans
Speaker 1: to file with the York County Conviction in Tegery Units,
Speaker 1: so we hope that they will be able to provide
Speaker 1: the relief that you have so rightfully deserved. But if not,
Speaker 1: I'm afraid your only option might be clemency. You know
Speaker 1: you have my full support, on the support of our
Speaker 1: whole team, and right now I'm going to ask for
Speaker 1: our audience to lend their support as well. So we're
Speaker 1: going to have a lot of things linked in to bio,
Speaker 1: but the number one call to action is to sign
Speaker 1: the petition to support your release. I'm literally begging our
Speaker 1: audience please join us on this one. Just go there
Speaker 1: right now and sign the petition. I'll take you a
Speaker 1: minute and a half. And now we go to my
Speaker 1: favorite part of the show, which is called closing arguments,
Speaker 1: where first I thank both of you incredible people for
Speaker 1: being here, and now I'm just going to kick back
Speaker 1: in my chair, turn my microphone off, and just listen
Speaker 1: to any final thoughts that you may have. So let's
Speaker 1: start with Altisia and then Taishim, please take us out
Speaker 1: into the sunset for you and for Melvin.
Speaker 3: America as a country, and our court system has largely
Speaker 3: been steeped like a tea bag in racism, and some
Speaker 3: people are considered worthy and some people are not considered worthy.
Speaker 3: And I would offer that back in the nineties, two
Speaker 3: young black men from New York are really considered outsiders
Speaker 3: and their lives were not worth a lot. I will
Speaker 3: never know what the prosecutor was thinking. I don't know
Speaker 3: the prosecutor, but I know that the hat was hung
Speaker 3: on somebody who had multiple convictions for perjury, who was
Speaker 3: highly incentivized, who pled guilty to the same crime, and
Speaker 3: who served less than three years at a county jail.
Speaker 3: You know that in and of itself is a crime.
Speaker 3: We know that these two young men did not commit
Speaker 3: this crime. And what I can say to Tayshim as
Speaker 3: well as Melvin, is I'm not giving up until they
Speaker 3: walk out.
Speaker 2: Just support this is a great cause. I fought hard
Speaker 2: for my freedom for twenty plus years. I've been incarcerated
Speaker 2: almost a quarter century. I'm innocent. I was awfully convicted.
Speaker 2: You can go to change dot org and sign this
Speaker 2: petition that was initiated by DJ Coco Chanel. You can
Speaker 2: visit my website. I want my life back, I want
Speaker 2: to be free. I want to turn my books into movies.
Speaker 2: I want to help other people who awfully convicted. I
Speaker 2: want to one day start my own innocence project and
Speaker 2: be able to help people regain their freedom and their
Speaker 2: voices back and returned to their families. That's all I want.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Rabel Conviction. I'd like to
Speaker 1: thank our production team Hall, Jeff Cliburn and Kevin Wartis,
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction is
Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good podcast and association with
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one