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Speaker 1: In October nineteen ninety seven, two overlapping groups of friends

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Speaker 1: from New York, one known as the Cream Team, the

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Speaker 1: other is the Gods, were living in York, Pennsylvania. Three

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Speaker 1: of these young men were Danny Steele, Melvin Bethune, and

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Speaker 1: Taysheen Crocker. On October fifth, nineteen ninety seven, at a

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Speaker 1: corner dice game, Melvin and Taisheim spoke to another New

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Speaker 1: York guy about a previous beef when gunshots rang out

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Speaker 1: and the crowd dispersed, but no one was hurt until

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Speaker 1: about five minutes later and two blocks away, when a

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Speaker 1: young man named Raymond Clark had been fatally shot. When

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Speaker 1: the investigation of the murder led to Danny Steele, he

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Speaker 1: told the police that Raymond's death was part of a

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Speaker 1: larger organized action involving a disagreement between rival New York gangs.

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Speaker 1: At the dice game, he alleged that Melvin and Taysheem

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Speaker 1: had rounded up some muscle from back in New York,

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Speaker 1: including Steel and three others, to confront the opposing gang,

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Speaker 1: the Gods. In the lead up to this confrontation, they

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Speaker 1: allegedly checked into a motel and hatched a plan that

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Speaker 1: allegedly was resulted in the death of Raymond Clark. Clearly,

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Speaker 1: local law enforcement had only one choice to believe Danny

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Speaker 1: Steele and do their part on the front lines of

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Speaker 1: America's war on drugs by taking as many of these

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Speaker 1: New York gangsters off their streets as they possibly could.

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Speaker 1: But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to ronful Conviction. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're going to cover a case in which the soul

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Speaker 1: assailant who is responsible for the murder got off with

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Speaker 1: less than three years for giving false testimony against two

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Speaker 1: innocent men. And I'm going to introduce one of those

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Speaker 1: men now. He's calling in from a maximum security prison

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Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania. Tayshim, Crocker, even though I hate the reason

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Speaker 1: why you're at where you're at, but I got to say,

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Speaker 1: I'm really happy and honored to have you.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad i'm here. Thank you, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: You're most welcome. And with him is his post conviction

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Speaker 1: pro bono attorney, the Tsia Shaviz Free Latsia. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Jason, You're also very welcome, so tayshim. This crime happened

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Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, but you're not from there, originally from the Bronx, right,

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Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about your childhood.

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Speaker 2: I was born to a teenage mother. My mom was sixteen.

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Speaker 2: You know, she wasn't ready to be a mother yet,

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Speaker 2: so she picked me in, forced a kid, and I

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Speaker 2: spent my first four years out in Queens. It was

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Speaker 2: like eighty one. She decided she wanted to be back.

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Speaker 2: I moved back to the Bronx. It was rough, we

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Speaker 2: were poor. I was pretty much terrified at my mom.

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Speaker 2: That was like the only person I was scared of.

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Speaker 2: Around the ages twelve, I was back and forced to

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Speaker 2: kid and out of her presidence. I just became a.

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Speaker 3: Street kid, so tayshim. He had a pretty hard life

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Speaker 3: and was living in the Bronx. You know, this is

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Speaker 3: at the height of the epidemic. Friends of his are

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Speaker 3: literally dying.

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Speaker 2: I went after Yo Kia because my best friend has

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Speaker 2: just got cute. I was fourteen, he was fifteen, and

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Speaker 2: he got cute. The next day, another one of my

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Speaker 2: closest friends got cute, and I was off for the

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Speaker 2: opportunity to go to York. So I jumped on the

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Speaker 2: bus and went out there.

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Speaker 1: What did you do to support yourself to survive out there.

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Speaker 2: I started hustling. I started taking pass from people older gous.

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Speaker 1: So this is the sort of thing where you did

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Speaker 1: the dirty work for the older guys because in theory,

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Speaker 1: at least a miner wouldn't get into that much trouble, right.

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Speaker 2: That's how it goes.

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Speaker 3: So it's my understanding that's a pretty low level drug dealer.

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Speaker 3: Him and a lot of the kids. He also runs

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Speaker 3: with a group of young people known as like the

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Speaker 3: Cream Team. And you know, there's several groups, but two

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Speaker 3: of them are called the Gods and the other one's

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Speaker 3: the Cream Team. The District Attorney's office tried to paint

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Speaker 3: this as some gang, but really Cream just means cash

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Speaker 3: rules everything around me.

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Speaker 1: So they were Wu Tang fans, yes, And I mean

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Speaker 1: anyone who's aware of Wu Tang Cash rules everything around

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Speaker 1: me is probably there could be their most iconic song

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Speaker 1: and terms like gods and earths. Some of the members

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Speaker 1: of Wu Tang are really into the theories of the

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Speaker 1: five percent nation where those terms come from. And we

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Speaker 1: could get into all of that on a totally different podcast.

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Speaker 1: But Wu Tang had just come out with their debut album,

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Speaker 1: entered the thirty six Chambers in nineteen ninety three. So

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Speaker 1: guys like Tayshim and Melbourne that was the soundtrack of

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Speaker 1: their childhood.

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Speaker 2: The Cream Team and the guys were once of kids

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Speaker 2: from the Bronx. We was rolling up together. We went

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Speaker 2: to the same schools, Eat pautied together, and we ended

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Speaker 2: up in Pennsylvania hustling.

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Speaker 1: So were you on the radar of the York Police

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Speaker 1: before all of this happened.

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Speaker 2: I talked about a week in prison for a couple

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Speaker 2: backs in marijuana, and I was like eighteen up there.

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Speaker 2: It was like forty.

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Speaker 1: Grand, forty fucking grand for some weed. Jesus well, I

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Speaker 1: mean this was the nineties when the War on drugs

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Speaker 1: was in full swing. It still is, unfortunately with the

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Speaker 1: large ETI and if you're listening to us right now,

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Speaker 1: you might want to check out our new series called

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Speaker 1: The War on Drugs. We're gonna have it linked in

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Speaker 1: the bio. Check it out the War on Drugs podcast.

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Speaker 1: And back then, as we've seen time and again on

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Speaker 1: this program, even involving a low level drug deal and

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Speaker 1: could make that person a target for a wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: So let's get to early October nineteen ninety seven and

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Speaker 1: the lead up to this dice game and the shooting,

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Speaker 1: there was some actual beef that had started a few

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Speaker 1: days before between your co defendant, Melvin Bethune and a

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Speaker 1: friend of this guy can Do Smith, and this served

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Speaker 1: as an a legend motive for what happened later. But

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Speaker 1: this was kind of like a small time beef, right.

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Speaker 2: There was no conflict that rose to the level of

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Speaker 2: want to take.

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Speaker 1: A life right, and Kendo Smith wasn't the victim anyway,

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Speaker 1: but rather a guy named Raymond skip Clark, who I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing was one of the gods as well.

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Speaker 2: No, he wasn't a member of the gods. He wasn't

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Speaker 2: even flims with Smith that I know of. Got night.

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Speaker 2: No guys were at this dice game except can Do Smith.

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Speaker 1: So the states there about a beef between the Gods

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Speaker 1: and the Cream team is not holding up so far.

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Speaker 1: It's full of holes. But this beef, however, inconsequential, was

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Speaker 1: something you intended to bring up with Ken du Smith

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Speaker 1: when you saw him at the dice game. This was

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Speaker 1: October fifth, nineteen ninety seven, on the corner of Maple

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Speaker 1: and Duke in New York, Pennsylvania, where there was a

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Speaker 1: regular dice game. Kend Do Smith was there as well

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Speaker 1: as Melvin Bethune Danny Steele. You had just got back

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Speaker 1: from the Bronx and a bit before eleven pm you

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Speaker 1: arrived at the game and Raymond Clarke was there as well.

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Speaker 2: I never saw Raymond Clark that man, but according to

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Speaker 2: court documents, he was at the dice game. He was

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Speaker 2: playing games. I got to the dice game and I

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Speaker 2: told the work I needed to talk to him. Before

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Speaker 2: we could talk, a shot was fired. He ran and

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Speaker 2: I ducked. No one knows who fired that shot. It

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Speaker 2: came from behind me. When I ducked and I land,

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Speaker 2: you know it was more shots fired. No one was injured.

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Speaker 2: Approximately five to ten minutes later and two blocks away,

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Speaker 2: according to shots Rush script, bore shots were fire. That

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Speaker 2: is who Raymond Clark was shot at out at the

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Speaker 2: dunt game.

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Speaker 1: So not only had you not even seen the victim

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Speaker 1: at the dice game, but at this point you had

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Speaker 1: no idea that anyone had even gotten hurt. So shots

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Speaker 1: were fired, everyone scattered, total chaos. Did you have a clue?

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Speaker 1: Did anyone have a clue why this was even happening?

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Speaker 3: There is essentially no serious beef at the time where

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Speaker 3: they feel like they should be targeted for any reason.

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Speaker 3: But they're taking off because there's gunfire and they know

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Speaker 3: what gunfire can do.

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Speaker 2: So when they got a hotel.

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Speaker 1: But according to the state's theory, you checked into the

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Speaker 1: hotel before going to the dice game before Raymond Clark's death,

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Speaker 1: sometime between like ten and eleven PM.

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Speaker 2: That is what they wanted the jury in the court

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Speaker 2: to believe. I checked into the Super eight at about

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Speaker 2: twelve thirty one in the morning. I let Mel know

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Speaker 2: where I was going, I left there and even where

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Speaker 2: I was going, and they spent the night with me.

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Speaker 1: And at that point, not only did you not know

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Speaker 1: that Skip Clark was dead, but you also didn't know

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Speaker 1: that your boy Danny Steele was about to use a

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Speaker 1: shared room at the Super eight as a premise for

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Speaker 1: a false statement, which really ends up being the basis

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Speaker 1: of the state's entire case. And we'll get to that

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Speaker 1: in a bit. But first, letitia, what do we know

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Speaker 1: about the initial investigation, Like how did they even end

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Speaker 1: up coming upon Danny?

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Speaker 3: So we have no idea exactly what happened. Ty Shim's lawyer,

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Speaker 3: the person who would have gotten the box of evidence

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Speaker 3: or whatever he's passed. When we go to Melvin's attorney,

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Speaker 3: this is over twenty plus years ago.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't have that box, so the usual trough of

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Speaker 1: information was not available. But what we do know about

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Speaker 1: this incident is that there were a thought of witnesses,

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Speaker 1: some of whom spoke with you and your lead investigator,

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Speaker 1: Kitty Haley way later in twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 3: Well, what we find out later is that Raymond Clark

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Speaker 3: he's found with drugs on his person, and it is

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Speaker 3: noted that he apparently owed Danny Steele some money.

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Speaker 2: Turns out maybe I think like a week after that,

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Speaker 2: Danny was interrogated, and.

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Speaker 1: At least four people have testified both the trial and

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Speaker 1: in post conviction that Danny Steele was the shooter. So

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Speaker 1: that should have been it, but instead a story at

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Speaker 1: a strategy was being concocted with Danny Steele in order

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Speaker 1: to drag more people down the rabbit hole with him,

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Speaker 1: turning this tragedy into an opportunity for the authorities to

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Speaker 1: sweep the streets from those they considered undesirable, namely Melvin

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Speaker 1: and Taysheen, who for months went about their lives eventually

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Speaker 1: hearing about Raymond Clark's death and having no idea that

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Speaker 1: one of their friends, Danny, was saving himself from life

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Speaker 1: in prison at their expense by creating this phony narrative

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Speaker 1: in which members of the Cream team met at the

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Speaker 1: Super eight Motel and conspired to confront the Gods at

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Speaker 1: this dice game about the beef with Melvin. And this

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Speaker 1: group allegedly included Tayshim, Melvin, Danny, and three other men

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Speaker 1: from New York, one of whom was named Corleone.

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Speaker 2: Coleon was a made up figure Danny Steele made up

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Speaker 2: so he could tend this homicide on somebody he made

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Speaker 2: on a shooter.

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Speaker 3: It's like they sat around and watched The Godfather and

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Speaker 3: then went and tried a case. That's how it feels.

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Speaker 3: Some guy named Corleone who's never been identified, and some

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Speaker 3: other guys from New York, they all go to the

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Speaker 3: Super eight Motel and they want blood for what happened

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Speaker 3: to Melvin yesterday. Melvin was disrespected or something, and they

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Speaker 3: want blood. So they're all going to get guns from

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Speaker 3: a friend's house and then they're going to go down

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Speaker 3: there and shoot up the Gods at a dice game.

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Speaker 1: Now, The theory continued that in order to arrive at

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Speaker 1: the Dice Game before the shootings took place around eleven

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Speaker 1: thirty pm, this alleged crew of Muscle from the Bronx

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Speaker 1: had to have checked into the Super eight Motel by

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Speaker 1: ten thirty PM or earlier in order to have time

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Speaker 1: for a thirty to sixty minute plotting session as well

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Speaker 1: as picking up the guns. But when they arrived at

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Speaker 1: the Dice Game, Tayshim allegedly pointed a gun to Kendu

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Speaker 1: Smith and tried to shoot him, but the gun allegedly

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Speaker 1: malfunctioned and didn't fire, so the rest of this alleged

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Speaker 1: team hit squad open fire and everyone at the Dice

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Speaker 1: Game ran for their lives. No one was hurt, and

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Speaker 1: Ken Dusmith has since gone on the record saying that

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Speaker 1: Tayshen never pulled a gun on him. Other eyewitnesses also

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Speaker 1: corroborated that the only evidence of this version events is

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Speaker 1: Danny Steele's statement, which continued saying that then he another

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Speaker 1: man and this fictitious guy named Corleone chased Raymond skip Clark,

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Speaker 1: and this fictional Corleone guy, not Danny Steele, allegedly shot

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Speaker 1: and killed Clark. So that's how Steele shifted total blame

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Speaker 1: from himself and alleged that he was just a co conspirator,

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Speaker 1: not the loan shooter.

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Speaker 3: Now, Danny Steele, this is important. He has charged with

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Speaker 3: the exact same crimes as Melvin and Tysheen, so you

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Speaker 3: would think he'd get the exact same punishment or close

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Speaker 3: for murder. For conspiracy to commit murder, he did two

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Speaker 3: years in the county jail, presumably because he couldn't go

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Speaker 3: to state prison because you know, he was a known snip.

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Speaker 1: From what I understand, he had also been convicted of

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Speaker 1: perjury twice before. So this is the guy on whom

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Speaker 1: the entirety of the state's case rests and what they

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Speaker 1: used to issue arrest warrants for both Melbourne and Taysheem.

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Speaker 1: And at the time, Melvin had just pled guilty to

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Speaker 1: some unrelated drug charges.

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Speaker 3: Correct. He takes a plea and he's getting ready to

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Speaker 3: go to prison, and the police come to let him

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Speaker 3: know that he's been indicted on these charges, and he's

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Speaker 3: just shocked. There's no conversation. They don't take him down

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Speaker 3: to the police station and interview him.

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Speaker 1: They had all the information they wanted from Danny Steele. Now, tyshim,

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Speaker 1: you were back in New York at the time, and

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Speaker 1: during a routine traffic stop, NYPD discovered that you were

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Speaker 1: wanted in New York, Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 2: No Manchila got arrested, that I was a fugitive. I

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Speaker 2: got picked up January nineteen ninety eight and forty fifth

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Speaker 2: feet with twenty seventh and eighth Avenue. I was arrested

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Speaker 2: and I haven't been on a street service. And while

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Speaker 2: PD picks me up, I'm extradited down to York where

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Speaker 2: I was charged.

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Speaker 3: When he gets to York and he's in the County jail,

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Speaker 3: there's no interview. The information and the story has already

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Speaker 3: been told by Danny Steele. But there's literally a fifteen

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Speaker 3: minute drive at one point from one drop off location

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Speaker 3: to the jail with a police officer.

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Speaker 2: Dennis Williams was the arresting detective. While he's driving me

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Speaker 2: to the York County prison, he said, I know you

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Speaker 2: didn't kill Rainey Clock, but I do know you're part

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Speaker 2: of the Cream team. I can get you a deal

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Speaker 2: if you cooperate, And I told him I didn't know

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Speaker 2: nothing innocent. A few months after that, They offered me

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Speaker 2: another deal five to ten, and I turned that down.

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Speaker 2: The day trial started, they offered me another deal if

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Speaker 2: they were going to dismiss all degrees of homicide if

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Speaker 2: I played guilty's in aggravated, and so chunk that down.

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Speaker 2: Dennis Williams Bull should be the deal. A dandy deal

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Speaker 2: ended up kidting.

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Speaker 1: Danny Steele did less than three years in the county jail.

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Speaker 1: That's jail, right, not prison, And that was part of

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Speaker 1: his deal to avoid running into other people who he

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Speaker 1: had flipped on previously. And so no one was ever

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Speaker 1: charged with being skipped. Clark's shooter Corleone certainly wasn't. It's

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Speaker 1: hard to charge a ghost after all. And now all

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Speaker 1: three of you had been charged with murder, but only

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Speaker 1: by way of conspiracy and accomplished liability. And this is

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Speaker 1: why your arrival time at the Super eight motel is

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Speaker 1: so important to the state's theory, as is the part

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Speaker 1: of Danny Steele's testilize where he alleged that you drew

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Speaker 1: a gun on Kendo Smith that never did fire.

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Speaker 3: So conspiracy liability requires proof of an agreement or a

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Speaker 3: common design to commit the lawful act for which the

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Speaker 3: person is convicted. So a person cannot be convicted of

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Speaker 3: conspiracy from merely being present during the commission of a crime.

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Speaker 3: There has to be some step taken, some proof of

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Speaker 3: the agreement, you know, and then obviously the crime. For

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Speaker 3: accomplass liability, it requires more than mere presence during the

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Speaker 3: commission of a criminal act, even if the accused knew

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Speaker 3: that the crime was to be committed. So we see

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Speaker 3: like accomplss liability like after the fact, you know, someone

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Speaker 3: who's helping to conceal or clean something up. So these

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Speaker 3: are really what tayshim as well as Melvin were convicted under. Also,

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Speaker 3: you know, a lot of that prosecutorial case led on

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Speaker 3: something called transferred intent, which basically means if I pull

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Speaker 3: out a gun and I'm trying to shoot you, but

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Speaker 3: I accidentally shoot your friend or someone's standing next to you,

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Speaker 3: you know, it would have been attempted murder because I

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Speaker 3: purposefully knowingly was aiming at you. But it's still first

307
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Speaker 3: degree murder even though I had no intention of killing

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Speaker 3: your friend, because the intention had already formed. And so

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Speaker 3: throughout the trial we'll hear of transferred intent in those transcripts.

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Speaker 1: So because you were alleged to have met beforehand, establishing

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Speaker 1: the intent, and then followed through with your part of

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Speaker 1: the supposed conspiracy by allegedly pulling a gun on Ken

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Speaker 1: du Smith that then made you, in turn responsible in

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Speaker 1: some degree for the murder of Skip Clark, the alleged

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Speaker 1: end result of this alleged organized confrontation.

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Speaker 2: I do, I end it. I didn't realize what conspiracy

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Speaker 2: laws accomplished liability was. I didn't realize when you moved

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Speaker 2: pieces on a chessboard to Atlanta, the way you want

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Speaker 2: it to be seen, you can make something look like

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Speaker 2: something that it wasn't. We were kids, you know, in

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Speaker 2: our adversary we used for chrome, men seasoned, you know,

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Speaker 2: politicians prosecuted. And I did not realize what was going

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Speaker 2: on until it was too.

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Speaker 1: Late, that they had fabricated a narrative with Danny Steele

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Speaker 1: to convict you through these conspiracy and accomplished liability laws

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Speaker 1: that you were unaware of. So Melvin was already in

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Speaker 1: prison for the unrelated drug charges, so he didn't bond out,

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Speaker 1: but neither did you. You both were being held separately

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Speaker 1: from Danny Steele, but at this point you didn't even

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Speaker 1: know about what he had done. Right, So when did

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Speaker 1: you first realize what he was doing to you?

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Speaker 2: The first time I see him is at my preliminary here,

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Speaker 2: and he's testifying against me. You know, he's saying that

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Speaker 2: I'm the leader of the Cream team that prior to

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Speaker 2: the Dice Game shooting, that we met at a motel

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Speaker 2: and agreed to kill someone. Actually at the preliminary here

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Speaker 2: when he said we agreed to step to these guys

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Speaker 2: to try to squash this beef. With the proceedings, his testimony,

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Speaker 2: you know, would constantly change and get more dramatic and

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Speaker 2: more incriminating.

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Speaker 3: There were a lot of inconsistencies in the telling of

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Speaker 3: these various stories by Danny Steele, but there wasn't necessarily

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Speaker 3: a rigorous, vigorous defense from Taishim's counsel. Melvin's council, when

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Speaker 3: looking at the transcript, tended to do a better job right.

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Speaker 1: Both families had hired counsel prior to the January ninety

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Speaker 1: nine trial, but only Melvin's family was able to pay

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Speaker 1: and maintain counsel.

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Speaker 2: So this attorney that was representing me at the time,

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Speaker 2: Allen Smith, you know, he was never paid him full

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Speaker 2: and he thought the motion to withdraws council. I didn't

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Speaker 2: know that. I could have still been getting counsel by

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Speaker 2: the state, which probably would have been a bad attorney anyway,

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Speaker 2: as bad as he was. But he never did nothing

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Speaker 2: after that, after the judge told him the motion was denied,

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Speaker 2: we countinue to proceed to trial without an investigation of

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Speaker 2: what going on.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like you didn't even have an attorney.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I didn't have an attorney. I didn't have a suit,

359
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Speaker 2: I didn't have shoes, I didn't have family, I didn't

360
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Speaker 2: have an attorney.

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Speaker 3: Tayshiem would come to the courthouse not a suit, but

362
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,560
Speaker 3: in an orange jumpsuit. So this was not, you know,

363
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Speaker 3: someone being able to put forth their best defense, and.

364
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Speaker 1: In order to combat the state, especially with what we

365
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,719
Speaker 1: now know that they were willing to hide, you were

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00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:17,560
Speaker 1: going to need a vigorous investigation from zealous attorneys and

367
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Speaker 1: a whole team that would have done things like carul

368
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Speaker 1: Ken do Smith to the stand. He has since gone

369
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Speaker 1: on the record that you did not, in fact point

370
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Speaker 1: to gun at him, which directly contradicts the state's narratives. Now,

371
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,240
Speaker 1: how your counsel didn't at least contact can do is

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Speaker 1: just it's irresponsible and desire it. It's disgusting, actually. But

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Speaker 1: even more bizarre is how Danny Steele did something on

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Speaker 1: the stand that even I've never heard of before.

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Speaker 3: Throughout the trial, he kept mentioning that, you know, he

376
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 3: was incentivized, that he's hoping, he's hoping that the prosecutors

377
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Speaker 3: do right by him and only give him two to

378
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Speaker 3: five years in the county. And that's exactly what they

379
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Speaker 3: give him.

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Speaker 1: He literally told the judge and jury why his own

381
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,760
Speaker 1: statement was unreliable. He's like, I'm receiving a benefit for

382
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,639
Speaker 1: lying here. He's spelling it out. Now, how are they

383
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,639
Speaker 1: supposed to trust anything he said? But they did. I

384
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,879
Speaker 1: can't get over this, and we already went over what

385
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,960
Speaker 1: Steele said before the shooting At the dice game, he

386
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Speaker 1: plays Taysheem Melvin, himself and three other guys, including this

387
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Speaker 1: Corleone character, at the Super eight motel between ten and

388
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Speaker 1: eleven PM for this conspiracy meeting, and the manager of

389
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Speaker 1: the Super eight guy named Alfred Milburn, corroborated this. Why

390
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,160
Speaker 1: we're not sure because the clerk who actually checked Taysheim

391
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,120
Speaker 1: into the hotel, the person who actually knew this information

392
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,879
Speaker 1: was a woman named Terry Flinch boss Siler and what

393
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Speaker 1: she told police directly and totally contradicted Albert Milburn's phony narrative.

394
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Speaker 3: She's the one who checks Tyshi Min. She knows this now.

395
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Speaker 3: Raymond Clark dies at eleven thirty pm that night, That's

396
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Speaker 3: when he's shot. We know this for a fact. She

397
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,199
Speaker 3: doesn't come on until eleven pm.

398
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Speaker 1: Right. The state spoke to her, but they didn't want

399
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,880
Speaker 1: to hear about how Tayshiim checked it at twelve thirty

400
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,840
Speaker 1: one o'clock in the morning at this conspiracy meeting. In fact,

401
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:02,960
Speaker 1: that never took place.

402
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 3: She tried to offer help and they didn't want to

403
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 3: hear it. She had documents, you know, where he signed,

404
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 3: as well as any telephone calls he would have made

405
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 3: out of that room because it's the nineties, and they

406
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,479
Speaker 3: could have turned that over to Tayshim's lawyers, and that

407
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 3: never happened.

408
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,119
Speaker 1: And perhaps these documents the telephone records may have also

409
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 1: been timestamped.

410
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 3: Miss Flinch boss Siler says that the records she maintained

411
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,719
Speaker 3: for the hotel have a bottom section which indicates the

412
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 3: exact times the calls made from each room, So it's

413
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 3: not known if the police or prosecutors were in possession

414
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,640
Speaker 3: of that part of the document, But the documents used

415
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 3: at trial were the only ones that she was asked

416
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,439
Speaker 3: to review that she was asked to talk about. And

417
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,720
Speaker 3: they don't have the exact times the calls made.

418
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Speaker 1: And no one from the defense went looking for call logs.

419
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Speaker 1: It's totally irresponsible. I mean, have been helpful to know

420
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 1: what time the calls were made, but that specifically wasn't

421
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 1: in the documents used by the state of trial. And

422
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 1: from what I understand, they deliberately limited Terry Flinch boss

423
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:12,399
Speaker 1: Siler's testimony.

424
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Speaker 3: She was told by the prosecutors, you're not allowed to speak.

425
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Speaker 3: You're going to answer yes or no to my questions.

426
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Speaker 1: Right. They were merely trying to establish that a phone

427
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,120
Speaker 1: call had taken place, but they specifically did not want

428
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 1: to know when, and they definitely didn't want to know

429
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 1: when her shift started or when Tyshim, Melvin and Danny

430
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 1: would checked in because that would have blown up their case.

431
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 1: They knew about Terry and these phone records, so it

432
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 1: looks like they knew that they were presenting false testimony. Now,

433
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 1: the phone call was important to them because it corroborated

434
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,920
Speaker 1: Melvin's presence at the alleged conspiracy meeting. It was alleged

435
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 1: that he had called his girlfriend at the time, Na've

436
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 1: Tucker Redmond, and told her what his intention was, which

437
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 1: was to go down to the dice game and shoot

438
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 1: up the gods. It was also alleged that a fourteen

439
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,119
Speaker 1: year old girl named Nicky Rhodes overheard this conversation. The

440
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 1: state made a number of false statements during opening and

441
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 1: closing that they never backed up by calling these alleged

442
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 1: witnesses Tucker and Nicki.

443
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 3: Our investigator was able to speak with Talker, so she

444
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 3: was dating Melvin. She did speak with him that night.

445
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,719
Speaker 3: She never told the prosecutor or the police that Melvin

446
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 3: was interested in hurting or shooting up the young men

447
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 3: on the corner plane craps. When she discovered what the prosecutor,

448
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:26,159
Speaker 3: specifically Prosecutor Kelly, had said in open court, she was

449
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 3: not present at the time, but she became incensed to

450
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,719
Speaker 3: learn that he claimed she came to court willingly she

451
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,360
Speaker 3: was subpoenaed to come to court, and that he had

452
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,120
Speaker 3: lied about what she had heard and said that evening.

453
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 3: When she discovered that the prosecutor, during a Sidebar had

454
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 3: told the judge that her conversation was overheard and passed

455
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:54,159
Speaker 3: along by Nicki Rhodes. She proclaimed that also to be alive.

456
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 3: Niki confirmed that she had no knowledge of the interaction

457
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 3: between Melvin Bethune and talker Redman on the of the

458
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 3: shooting of Skip Clark. She was adamant that she was

459
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 3: a younger at the time with no knowledge of anything

460
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 3: related to the crime. She did not testify, and she

461
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 3: was not asked to testify.

462
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: I guess the state strategy was, if you're going to lie,

463
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 1: go big, and they were able to hide those lies

464
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: from these alleged witnesses because witnesses aren't typically allowed to

465
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: sit in court to watch the proceedings, but here it

466
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: seems this rule was a convenient way to hide them

467
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: from what was being said about them. Like Kalanda Chance,

468
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: who had told the police that she had been at

469
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: the scene earlier in the evening but left prior to

470
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: the shooting. I knew nothing about it. Now, what did

471
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: she tell your investigator? Kitty Hayley. In twenty twenty one.

472
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 3: Klanda Chance she was provided with a copy of the

473
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,360
Speaker 3: trial transcript and was upset to read that the prosecutor

474
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 3: was attempting to tie her into a web of lies

475
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 3: about Melvin wanting to shoot up men on the corner.

476
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 3: She never knew about the plan to use her as

477
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 3: a link between Taker Redman's conversation and the actual shooting.

478
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 3: She further claimed that the prosecutors were trying to make

479
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 3: two groups of friends, the Cream Team and the Guards,

480
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 3: look like a hardened criminal gang, even though that was

481
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 3: not so.

482
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: But even if you want to believe that these two

483
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 1: groups were hardened criminal organizations help ent on destroying the

484
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 1: otherwise decent, hardworking town of York, Pennsylvania, the evidence simply

485
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: doesn't support the state's theory. Terry flinch buss Siler was

486
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: the clerk who checked Taishim into the Super eight, and

487
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: her shift started at eleven PM, So even if he

488
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 1: was waiting there for her shift to start before he

489
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 1: checked in, there's just not enough time to check in.

490
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 1: The Cream Team have a thirty minute to an hour

491
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: long meeting to conspire about confronting the Gods. Go to

492
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 1: another dress to pick up the guns, go to the

493
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: dice game, shoot up the place, and then chase down

494
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: and kill Raven Skip Clark by eleven thirty do all

495
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,479
Speaker 1: that shit in thirty minutes.

496
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 2: It's impossible, and they knew it was impossible, but they

497
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 2: went with the dewy and the judge told the jilly

498
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 2: that is Ty wasn't at that motel prior to the shooting.

499
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 2: Toy couldnot be cal guilty as or a copysprumity in

500
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 2: this case. But while I was on trial, I didn't

501
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: have the information I'm in possession from now right.

502
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: They did, though, and the state used testimony that they

503
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: knew was false in order to trick the jury into

504
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: believing that this alleged conspiracy meeting was both plausible and real,

505
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: and I'm sure Danny's admission to his involvement acted as

506
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: a stamp of legitimacy. Then they alluded to this alleged

507
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: phone confession from Melvin that was never actually confirmed or corroborated,

508
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 1: and the jury bought at Lockstock and Barrel. They convicted

509
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: you both and sentenced you to life in prison.

510
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 2: I watched Melvin cry after we was convicted. I cried, didn't.

511
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it. I was in disbelief. I didn't

512
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 2: even know we could get life because we didn't kill anybody.

513
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 2: No I'm not telling this story yet. Living this story.

514
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 2: Prison there's something different than everybody. You know. It's like

515
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 2: a hospital, it's like a hotel. It's like a hideout.

516
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 2: It's like a hangout. It's like a hostage situation. It's

517
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 2: the word so being awfully convicted. It's about us fun.

518
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 2: It's falling off twenty story building. It's kind of struggle.

519
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 2: When I grew up in prison as a smarting little kid.

520
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 2: I hate to head today as much as I did

521
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 2: the first day. You never get used to it. There's

522
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 2: nothing more urgent than in freedom. You know what I'm saying.

523
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 2: I'm gonna look at myself like a hostage fighting give

524
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 2: back to my family.

525
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 3: Well, then trying to make peace with the fact that

526
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 3: he has a son he'll never watch grow up, that

527
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 3: he's going to be spending the rest of his life

528
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 3: in a prison for a crime he didn't come. I

529
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 3: don't believe Melvin has ever received legal help. Maybe one

530
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 3: time for a post conviction relief. I don't know that

531
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 3: he learned to use the law library and advocate for

532
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 3: himself like tayshim did.

533
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 2: Every weeged moment. I'm fighting for my life and it

534
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: was giving me the worst attorneys. You know, my first

535
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 2: attorney was sleeping in the same prison I was in

536
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: for the US when he dropped the bull. They gave

537
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 2: me another lawyer. She was helpful, but she was in

538
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 2: over her hair because her expertise was social security claims,

539
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 2: so it was really me. I had to learn the

540
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: law myself.

541
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: So you've taught yourself the law, as we often see

542
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: as absolutely necessary for our guests to do, and you

543
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: also saw it outside help like investigators and lawyers, and

544
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: you've been funding that by writing and selling books. Who

545
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,239
Speaker 1: are you, dude? That's amazing. I mean, I see you've

546
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: written eight books.

547
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: I've written fifteen books. I got eight published. They're all

548
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: available for purchase.

549
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: I just received, by the way, your latest book. It's

550
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: called It Could Happen to any of Us, and that's

551
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: like a mantra of mine. So I'm really looking forward

552
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: to reading it, and we're gonna make sure to link

553
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: your books in the bio. This is how you've been

554
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: funding your fight for freedom, and I hope our audience

555
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: will show their support. So let's talk about that fight.

556
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: You mentioned that you had some Appella attorneys that were

557
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: about as useless as your original trialawyer, and in Pennsylvania

558
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: post conviction, I'm not so sure it matters if the

559
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: lawyers are bet or not, since the post conviction statutes

560
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: make the fight even more difficult than usual. Now, if

561
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: I understand this correctly, you can find new evidence, even

562
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: Brady material, But if that evidence could have possibly been found,

563
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: that means it was available to you, and therefore it

564
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: cannot be considered new evidence. For example, since the Super

565
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: eight clerk Terry Flinch Boss Siler was alive and available

566
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: to be questioned, what she has to say is not

567
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: considered new evidence, And the fact that the state didn't

568
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: share it doesn't make it a Brady violation because you

569
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: could have discovered it on your own or your lawyer

570
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: could have, which sounds fucking absurd. And then in this

571
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: case they were code defendants. If Melvin had an attorney

572
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: who litigated something already, the issue can't be raised. So

573
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: options run out very quickly, and doors keep closing, and

574
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: you've been met with denial after denial, even though you've

575
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: amassed a formidable case for actual incense.

576
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: And in two thousand and three I found out that

577
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: Danny still had a secret deal with the Commonwealth. The

578
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 2: two and a half to five. So I found my

579
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: first PCRA on my own in two thousand and three.

580
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 2: I was unsuccessful because they said that this information was

581
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: in the public domain and that I could have voted

582
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: in the first pcl the council PCLA with the attorney

583
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 2: they gave me, who never read the record, never interviewed me,

584
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 2: never tried to interview anybody.

585
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: See, this is the kind of bullshit I'm talking about.

586
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: Since the information was in the public domain, meaning that

587
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: it existed among all the information in the world and

588
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: wasn't being kept under lock and key, then it was

589
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: technically in the public domain during his first post conviction

590
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: motion and his counsel didn't find it and build a

591
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: motion around it. So then the issue cannot be raised again.

592
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say. And then there's

593
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: only a certain amount of time that it can be raised.

594
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: The judge felt like this information was in the public

595
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: domain between the time of need filing it and whin

596
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: though close him on my first pc out right, and.

597
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: In Pennsylvania back then, you'd only get sixty days since legislation.

598
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: You know, it's three hundred and sixty five days now.

599
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's really fucking generous. I mean, who does

600
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: legislation like that serve or punished? Think about it. It's

601
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,479
Speaker 1: not like people who are dead to rights guilty are

602
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: making credible cases for actual innocence, or at least not likely.

603
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: So shutting the door on these post conviction motions pretty

604
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: much solely kept the innocent incarcerated. Since that time, though

605
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: that legislation has changed.

606
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 2: The presumption and knowledge is no longer a reason to

607
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: foreclose your post conviction motion twenty years ago it was.

608
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: Today, it's not so much good it does for you though.

609
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you can't go back retroactivity. You can't go

610
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 2: back and feature which already happened.

611
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: So after appealing your denials in two thousand and three

612
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: in the state courts, you went federal.

613
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 2: Got challenged my conviction on the federal level because of

614
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 2: our constitutional rights. I made, you know, the two major

615
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: issues was that the trial court gave the wrong jury

616
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: instruction as it applied to accomplished liability, and the second

617
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: issue was an effective assistic counsel for FAIE to investigate.

618
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,719
Speaker 2: Those were my two strongest issues, and after two and

619
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 2: a half years, three years, I filed my own hate too.

620
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 2: But it was eventually denied.

621
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: He then filed your fourth PCRA petition in twenty twelve

622
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: because Danny Steele recanted his trial testimony. Yeah, you heard

623
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: that right. Danny Steele was finally doing the right thing.

624
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: He sent me an affter David stating that he had

625
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 2: been pressing to give false testimony that he had witnessed

626
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 2: need could have done to do work's head and pull

627
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 2: the trigger. He also testified about the fake motel meeting,

628
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: and he was ultimately found to be incredible because he

629
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: was no longer in jeopardy from the common Wealth, but

630
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 2: he was still allegedly in jeopardy from his co defendants.

631
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: You and Melvin, who were both locked up for life

632
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: while he's out there doing whatever he's doing, living the dream.

633
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: You know what I find incredible, The fucking balls on

634
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: these judges, I mean, unfucking believable. The only evidence in

635
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: the case, besides the Super eight manager who we know

636
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: didn't know his ass from his elbow, the only evidence

637
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: is Danny Steele's word, which apparently no longer matters. I

638
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: guess if anyone could be a good judge of Danny's credibility, though,

639
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: it'd be the guys who cooked up the lines with

640
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: him to begin with.

641
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 2: Both of the prosecutors also testified that they ain't seem

642
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 2: to stand that day. It said if he testified falsely,

643
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 2: it was something he chose to do. They didn't encourage

644
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: them to do it. So he found them to be

645
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 2: more credible than Danny Steal.

646
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: So now you find a way to bolster the recantation.

647
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: You got in touch with Kendu Smith, like your trial

648
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: attorney should have done in the first place, and he

649
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: was finally ready to corroborate Thisanny Steele's recantation. So that

650
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: was the focus of your last of your PCRRA petitions

651
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: filed in August twenty fifteen, and evidentiary hearing was held

652
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:09,720
Speaker 1: in August twenty seventeen.

653
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 2: And at this evidence here Jim Delle Smith shows up

654
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 2: and he testifies on the oath that Chad never put

655
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 2: a machine gun in my head and pulled the trigger.

656
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 2: And I don't know why Danny Steel made that up.

657
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 2: Had it happened, I wouldn't be here to day saying

658
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 2: it didn't.

659
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: Happen, right, Why would he be standing up for his

660
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: attempted murderer in court. So this adds legitimacy to his testimony,

661
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: which transfers legitimacy to Danny Steele's recantation, and this would

662
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: qualify as new evidence in other states, but not in Pennsylvania.

663
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: This was denied as untimely because this witness was available

664
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: at the time of trial. It's like running into a

665
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: brick wall over and over again. Now, meanwhile, at this time,

666
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: a chain of events began evolving. Melbourne's son. Now this

667
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: must have been right after this evidentiary hearing, maybe twenty seventeen,

668
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, something really bad happened, and then that thing

669
00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: was almost made even worse.

670
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 3: Can you explain Guess who gets found shot multiple times

671
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 3: in his car? Danny Steele. I mean, he's just riddled

672
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 3: with bullets. York County decides that Melvin Bethune's own son,

673
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 3: who grew up without his father, was the person who

674
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 3: killed Danny Steele, that he was so angry about him

675
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 3: allegedly perjuring himself naming his father, that he decided to

676
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 3: lie in wait and kill Danny Steele. Well, Melvin Bethune's

677
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 3: son decided to take this thing to trial, and he prevailed.

678
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 3: He was found not guilty, and Danny Steele is dead.

679
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 3: Which is very sad, of course, but there are many

680
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 3: people who may have harbored very bad feelings towards Danny Steele.

681
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I wouldn't blame Melvin's son if he was

682
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: angry with Danny Steele. How I'm angry with Danny Stele

683
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 1: deal even posthumously. But that doesn't mean that Melvin's Sun

684
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: murdered anybody. I mean, I don't know all the details,

685
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: so I won't comment on the investigation of the prosecution.

686
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 1: I do hope that things have changed significantly in yourk

687
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: County since the time they wromply convicted Melbourne. But at

688
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: the very least, I'm glad one of the Bethunes appears

689
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: to have had a competent attorney which was also on

690
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: the horizon from Melvin and Taishim. One of your advocates,

691
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: Omar Jannette, was instrumental in getting you the competent attorney

692
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: who we have with us today, the Tsia Shaviz Free

693
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: and apparently it started off as a change dot org

694
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: petition that put you on the radar of the NS's

695
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: Project of Pennsylvania when Letsia just happened to be looking

696
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: for some pro bono work and reached out to them.

697
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 3: And so I contacted Benison's Project and they gave me

698
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 3: this case. I collected every record I possibly could, and

699
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,760
Speaker 3: of course I realized that Melvin Bethune was also behind

700
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 3: bars for the same crime as Taysheim. And that is

701
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,959
Speaker 3: about the time where I hire Kitty Hayley. She went

702
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 3: back in time. Essentially, she spent weeks and weeks in

703
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,879
Speaker 3: York and talked to you know, people who knew all

704
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 3: of the players involved Kendo. You know, Bethune's girlfriend, the victim,

705
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 3: Raymond Clark's mother, Katy Haley, went to New York and

706
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 3: went and sat with this woman on more than one

707
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 3: occasion and talked to her about her son and what

708
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 3: he meant to her. And we have an alpha David.

709
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 3: She literally said that the prosecutors and she named them,

710
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 3: told her that Danny Steele was responsible for the murder

711
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 3: of her son. But they won as many gang members

712
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 3: as possible off these streets, and so they're going to

713
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 3: get all three of them. And they're not given Danny

714
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 3: Steele a deal. They're not doing that. He's going to

715
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,399
Speaker 3: get the same amount of time as the others. Well,

716
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 3: that's not what happened.

717
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:48,839
Speaker 1: You know, I didn't think there was room for these

718
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: prosecutors to get any less likable, but trust me, there

719
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: is even more room. And as we've already discussed, Kitty

720
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: Haley spoke to all the women who the prosecutors lied about,

721
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: a trial talker Redmond, Klonda Chance, and of course the

722
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: fourteen year old girl Nikki Rhodes. Then she spoke with

723
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: Terry Flinch boys Syler, and we know that she discovered

724
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: the Terry began her shift at eleven PM and checked

725
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: Taishim into the Super eight well after Skip Clark had

726
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: already died, which means this entire case just fell apart.

727
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,919
Speaker 2: So I meet Kitty Harley the beginning at twenty twenty one,

728
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: and it was feeling for me when she said, you know,

729
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 2: you've been telling the same story for twenty years. It

730
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 2: felt good. But Kitty Harley gets out there in the field.

731
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 2: She speaks to Terry and the motel clerk from the

732
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: Superley motel, and she adamantly states that she told the

733
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 2: prostitution that this theory was flawed, that I could not

734
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: have been there any time prior to eleven PM. They

735
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 2: said I was there at ten TM, but you know

736
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 2: where I was at at ten PM all my way

737
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: back from New York. I was on the highway at

738
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 2: tim TM and she also made one the same statement

739
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 2: and the feature she said that ever instant they presented

740
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: at my trial, something was missing and then it had

741
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: to be detached, that it was ripped off. The ripped

742
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 2: DOLF piece is called the bottom of a folio, a

743
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 2: folio that contains information they would have told whoever wanted

744
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 2: to see it, exactly what time the room was in it,

745
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 2: if and when any calls were made, how long the

746
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 2: calls were, and where they went to. The jury never

747
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 2: got an opportunity to see this. The defense was never

748
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 2: in the possession of this, and I didn't even know

749
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 2: it existed until Kitty Haley furnished the legal team with

750
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 2: her conclusions in these statements.

751
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 3: And so presumably those documents are sitting in the District

752
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 3: Attorney's office today and that's what we're fighting for to get.

753
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 3: But also, this woman has signing out of David. She's

754
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 3: willing to come in. And this woman doesn't know anybody,

755
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 3: She has no skin in the game.

756
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 2: If an uninterested objective party witness is telling you that

757
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 2: this serious flawed, and you decide to perpetuate this fraud

758
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 2: and allow for it to go uncorrected for twenty something years.

759
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 2: Based on my studies, this would be considered deliberate and

760
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: willful deception.

761
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: No words could do this injustice, any justice. So now

762
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: that we've heard everything that Kitty dug up, you all

763
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 1: were able to petition the courts based on this evidence,

764
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: and they said that this was litigated by Melvin back

765
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven and it was denied back

766
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: then as untimely because Terry Flinchboss Silo was available to

767
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: testify at trial, so this couldn't be considered new evidence

768
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: and most certainly was past the deadline. And I mean

769
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 1: what we're seeing in this case over and over again

770
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: is ineffective assistance at trial.

771
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it all comes down to the beginning stages trial.

772
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 2: So at trial, I had a lawyer who had checked

773
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 2: out on me. But the beautiful thing is he did

774
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 2: file a Brady He wrote the action for everything that

775
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 2: was shoping. Soley we know today that they would have

776
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 2: some information that was requested.

777
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 1: I mean, there's always been a solid case for Brady

778
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 1: violations and ineffective assistance here, but so far, I don't

779
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 1: think it's a stretch to say that you have been

780
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: failed not only by your attorneys along the way, but

781
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: by the entire judicial system. I understand you have plans

782
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: to file with the York County Conviction in Tegery Units,

783
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: so we hope that they will be able to provide

784
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: the relief that you have so rightfully deserved. But if not,

785
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: I'm afraid your only option might be clemency. You know

786
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 1: you have my full support, on the support of our

787
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: whole team, and right now I'm going to ask for

788
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: our audience to lend their support as well. So we're

789
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: going to have a lot of things linked in to bio,

790
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: but the number one call to action is to sign

791
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: the petition to support your release. I'm literally begging our

792
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: audience please join us on this one. Just go there

793
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: right now and sign the petition. I'll take you a

794
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: minute and a half. And now we go to my

795
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: favorite part of the show, which is called closing arguments,

796
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: where first I thank both of you incredible people for

797
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: being here, and now I'm just going to kick back

798
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 1: in my chair, turn my microphone off, and just listen

799
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: to any final thoughts that you may have. So let's

800
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: start with Altisia and then Taishim, please take us out

801
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: into the sunset for you and for Melvin.

802
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 3: America as a country, and our court system has largely

803
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 3: been steeped like a tea bag in racism, and some

804
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 3: people are considered worthy and some people are not considered worthy.

805
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,479
Speaker 3: And I would offer that back in the nineties, two

806
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 3: young black men from New York are really considered outsiders

807
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,439
Speaker 3: and their lives were not worth a lot. I will

808
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 3: never know what the prosecutor was thinking. I don't know

809
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,720
Speaker 3: the prosecutor, but I know that the hat was hung

810
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 3: on somebody who had multiple convictions for perjury, who was

811
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 3: highly incentivized, who pled guilty to the same crime, and

812
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 3: who served less than three years at a county jail.

813
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 3: You know that in and of itself is a crime.

814
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 3: We know that these two young men did not commit

815
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 3: this crime. And what I can say to Tayshim as

816
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 3: well as Melvin, is I'm not giving up until they

817
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 3: walk out.

818
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 2: Just support this is a great cause. I fought hard

819
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 2: for my freedom for twenty plus years. I've been incarcerated

820
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: almost a quarter century. I'm innocent. I was awfully convicted.

821
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 2: You can go to change dot org and sign this

822
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: petition that was initiated by DJ Coco Chanel. You can

823
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 2: visit my website. I want my life back, I want

824
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 2: to be free. I want to turn my books into movies.

825
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 2: I want to help other people who awfully convicted. I

826
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 2: want to one day start my own innocence project and

827
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 2: be able to help people regain their freedom and their

828
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: voices back and returned to their families. That's all I want.

829
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Rabel Conviction. I'd like to

830
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 1: thank our production team Hall, Jeff Cliburn and Kevin Wartis,

831
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

832
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

833
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

834
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at

835
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

836
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,919
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both

837
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction is

838
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good podcast and association with

839
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one