1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of I 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. To ride an idea that you believed in 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: with a group of people who were making no money 4 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: and have it turn into a worldwide phenomena. I mean 5 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: it was incredible. All of a sudden, you know you 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: couldn't get arrested, and then you know you're being wined 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: and dying everywhere. Welcome to this episode of Math and 8 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: Magic Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. I'm Bob Pittman. 9 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: On this podcast, we explore the creative and data analytics 10 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 1: side of marketing and how business people and entrepreneurs use 11 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: that magic mix help them find success. Today's guest as 12 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: an old friend who I have known and admired for 13 00:00:49,560 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: most of my adult working life. Tom Freston to M 14 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: is totally unique in the media and entertainment business. He 15 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: has this ability to bridge the sort of wildly new, 16 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: untamed creatives with the establishment and often helps each group 17 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: understand each other and sometimes even creates ventures together. He 18 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: was the first person to tell me about Vice, for example, 19 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: and even gave me an opportunity to invest in it 20 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: in the beginning. I stupidly did not take his advice, 21 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: but Tom had spotted something that few of us could 22 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: have grasped except him back then, and he has done 23 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: that countless times in his career. Tom owned a business 24 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: based in Afghanistan back in the seventies, came back to 25 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: the US. It was on the original team that built 26 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: him TV. When I left MTV in nine seven, Tom 27 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: succeeded me as CEO of MTV Networks, and he and 28 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: his team, which included Judy McGrath, who has been on 29 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: the podcast before, took him TV two heights. None of 30 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: us would have ever imagined we had gone public. Briefly, 31 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: we lost in that LBO. Viacom bought it pre sum 32 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: the red Stone shortly after they bought it. In Tom's 33 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: time at the top, some of the red Stone effectively 34 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: bought Viacom, and he did so because he had Tom's support. Ironically, 35 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: decades later, and one of the strangest moments in corporate history, 36 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: Tom left by a com because of Sumner. We'll get 37 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: to that later. Tom went on to explore his two 38 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: great passions, travel to places in the world filled with wonder, 39 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: and his other love nurturing creatives and helping them find 40 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: success and protecting their ideas. Welcome Tom. Nice to be here, Bob. 41 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: Tom has some great stories and we'll get to those 42 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: in a minute time, but first we want to do 43 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: you in sixty seconds. So here we go. Do you 44 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: prefer vanilla or chocolate Vanilla? Facebook or Instagram? Instagram? The 45 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: Real World or the Osbourne's Wine or Tequila Tequila? MTV 46 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: News or Vice New York or l A l A 47 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: Madonna or Cindy Lauper Madonna, Andy Warhol or Andy Rooney, 48 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: Andy Warhol. It's about to get harder. You're ready. Secret 49 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: talent photographer, favorite city London, favorite color blue, career highlight 50 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: working with you in MTV those years? Oh I love that? Huh? 51 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: Childhood hero Conto, favorite TV show? Andy Griffith. Best life 52 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: concert you've ever seen? Live a excuse me quote to 53 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: live by, Live, free, or die. Best thing about being you? 54 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: I get to do whatever I want? The worst bad 55 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: you participated in the Macarena? What would be the title 56 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: of your memoir? Mr? Tom? Who would play you in 57 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: a movie? Dustin Hoffman? What's one book song? Movie that 58 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: changed you? On the road? Jack carolac last one? Who 59 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: would you like to meet you haven't yet? Matt. I 60 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: had told many you're a brave man. Okay, let's again 61 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: by going back to your beginning. You probably travel more 62 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: than anyone I know. Yet you grew up in a 63 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: mall Connecticut town and you didn't travel much at all 64 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: as a kid. As I remember, you were not in 65 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: a very diverse community. But diversity has been a hallmark 66 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: of your career. Your dad was a commuter, and you 67 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: were the first person I knew who ever moved downtown 68 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: because the Tribeca back when it was all commercial. You've 69 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: always been the urban explorer. So what in that childhood 70 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: brought you to this place? Why so many contrasts? I 71 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: don't know. I grew up in Roheaton, Connecticut. It was 72 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 1: an all white town. We didn't even have forget blacks 73 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: or Italians. There was no Jews. It was very homo genious. 74 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: By the time I got to college, I'd only been 75 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: in two states, New York and Connecticut, and I'd only 76 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: had one trip in my life, which was a day 77 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: trip to the Mystic Seaport with my father, who sort 78 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: of suffered from PTSD from World War Two and never 79 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: wanted to go anywhere. So when I was seventeen, I 80 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: headed off to college and just sort of never came back, 81 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: always looking, you know, sort of for the road less traveled. 82 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: In a way, was there anything in that upbringing that 83 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: s have led you to this or were you running 84 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: away from something? Were you gathering something, or is there's 85 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: something that gives you strength from that era? I think 86 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 1: I was sort of running away for the conformity of 87 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: suburban New York City, and I was running away in 88 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: the end from what I saw as a kind of 89 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: boring organization man life. What lessons did you take from 90 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: those days, anything that when you think about business or 91 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: think about your family, that you learned there that you 92 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: repeat again and again. Well. I would watch my father 93 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: and his friends who were largely involved in the marketing 94 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: advertising business. They were sort of like the Madman cocktail party, 95 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 1: the whole drill, and I saw how hard everyone worked. 96 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: I also saw how some of his friends, who were 97 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: in the more creative advertising world, actually got a lot 98 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: of enjoyment out of their work because they had something 99 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: to do with the creative process. So that was sort 100 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: of a gene that stayed in the back of my head. 101 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: I was always trying to figure out where would I 102 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: fit in the business world. There wasn't an artist, per se. 103 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: I wasn't a writer or a musician, but I wanted 104 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: to always be around creative people. My first grown up jobs. Essentially, 105 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: we're working in an ad agency. You went off to 106 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: college in Vermont the sixties. You paid for school through 107 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: a variety of jobs. I remember you telling me about 108 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: some of the things you did. Tell us some of 109 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: those wonderful jobs. I've done every menial job imaginable. But 110 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: when I was in college, I used to do everything 111 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: from run the student cafeteria, became the head waiter. At 112 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: one point, I would work washing dishes. I would sweep 113 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: the floors of hospitals. I would deliver snacks to people's 114 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: rooms at night from a place called Frosty Stein, where 115 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 1: people would break into my car and steal the other 116 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: order I had in my car when I was delivering one. 117 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: It was a bit with frustration, but I I worked 118 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: really hard. I made more money in college. When I 119 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: left college, I was probably making less for a couple 120 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: of years, and I was when I was there. When 121 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: did the sixties subculture find you? Well? I was eighteen 122 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: years old the day President Kennedy was shot nineteen sixty three. 123 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: In my mind. That's sort of the day is that 124 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: the sixties began. For me. The first view are really 125 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: out of the sixties was the summer of nineteen sixty five. 126 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: I had listened to someone who had come back from 127 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: the year before from Lake George, New York, and had 128 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: worked at this what was then a sort of thriving 129 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: resort where a lot of young people would come and 130 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: work for this summer. And it was there that I 131 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: went and got a job as a bellhop and then 132 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: as a bartender. But I ran into a lot of 133 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: young people my age who weren't necessarily in college. They 134 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: would work in Aspen in the wintertime, they would come 135 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: work in Lake George in the summertime. It's the first 136 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: time I've really seen people outside of the normal career track. 137 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: They smoked pot, they would travel, and the Pound was 138 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: just filled with rock and roll bands. This is the 139 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: first glimpse into bohemia. I kind of just jumped in 140 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: head first. And then I moved to New York City 141 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: to go to college, to go to graduate school, and 142 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: that was sort of, you know, nineteen sixty seven, moving 143 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: into the East Village, I was right in the middle 144 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: of it all. So you went to college though in 145 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: New York at n y U to get an m 146 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: b A. This is well before people got an NBA. 147 00:07:58,200 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: This was the sixties. Why did you get an NBA 148 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty seven. I was gonna graduate college. They said, hey, 149 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: you know you're gonna get drafted and go to Vietnam 150 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: really quickly, and you better think of somewhere else to 151 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: go to get a student to firm. And I didn't 152 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: want to go to medical school. I didn't want to 153 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: go to dental school or law school. Is there any 154 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: school I could go to? Said way, you can go 155 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: to business school. I didn't even know there was such 156 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: a thing. I mean, I was really behind the curve there. 157 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: So I applied and got into a couple of business 158 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: schools and went to n y U. I did two 159 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: years straight. It was really the Vietnam War drove me 160 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: to business school. After getting your m b A. Instead 161 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: of going to somewhere like Mackenzie, you became a bartender 162 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: in the Caribbean Colorado Martha's Vineyard. What's that the beginning 163 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: of the wonder lust? And why do that rather than 164 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: jump into work? Well, I wasn't. I'm ready. I I 165 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: figured I've been to school for, you know, eighteen years. 166 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: I was ready to kind of stretch out. I wanted 167 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: to kind of join those people whose life I had 168 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: admired back in Lake George. At first I was going 169 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 1: to ask when I became a dishwasher, but I wanted 170 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: to be free. I had never really driven across the country, 171 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 1: never really almost been anywhere, So that really what my 172 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: appetite for things that were to come, much to my 173 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: parents should grun at the time, because they assumed, of course, well, 174 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: now you're gonna get a grown up job. So now 175 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: we get to Tom Freston. In business, you jump in 176 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: feet first at the legendary ad agency Bettnam Bowls. You 177 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: worked on G I. Joe and Sharman. But I guess 178 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: it didn't seem like the place for you. Why, well, 179 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: my first account there I worked on was G I. Joe. Now, 180 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: mind you, this was sort of at the height of 181 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: the Vietnam War, and I was in an alienated state 182 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: to begin with, let alone doing that for a living. 183 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: It was an interesting learning time to see sort of 184 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: being a big ad agency, to see how it all worked, 185 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: how all the pieces came together. But when they were 186 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: going to assign me to Charman toilet paper. That was 187 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: sort of my last straw. I said, I I'm not 188 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: gonna do this. I called an ex girlfriend who lived 189 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: in Paris and I said, you know, I'm really I'm 190 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: really bombed. They want they want me to work on 191 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,599 Speaker 1: a toilet paper account where they had segment in the 192 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: population and two rollers, folders and crumplers. And she says, well, 193 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: you can't do that. You can't do that. You should 194 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: quit that job. Dupi a moron, Come with me. I'm 195 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: gonna go across the Sahara desert up in Paris. So 196 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: I was on a plane like ten days later. That 197 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: was it for me. You'd saved enough money. I had 198 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: like five thousand dollars. That was a lot of money 199 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: at the time. Shore was So you wind up with 200 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: Hindu Kush your clothing line. How did you get there 201 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: from I'm gonna go walk across the Sahara to you 202 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: start your own clothing line based in Afghanistan. We split up, 203 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: we crossed the Sahara. I have said about traveling throughout 204 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: Africa and then into Europe, and uh I met a 205 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: girl in Greece who she was selling all these cool 206 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 1: clothes on the beach and micanos to these German tourists, 207 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:39,839 Speaker 1: and she would go in the winter and make these 208 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 1: clothes in India Nepal and bring them back. I kind 209 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: of lodged that in the back of my head, but 210 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: she convinced me to go to India. So many months 211 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,839 Speaker 1: later I went on overland to India, basically hitchhike through 212 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: Iran Afghanistan, ended up in India. The day I went 213 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: across the Afghan border, my life sort of change because 214 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: I said, Wow, this place is just terrific. The guy 215 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: at immigration, he was wearing an acrand Band high school 216 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: jacket as his uniform. I said, this is a country 217 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: that's as far away from New York as I would find. 218 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: And I set about figuring out how I could survive 219 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: and live there. The only way I was gonna do 220 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: was to start a business. At that point in time globalism. 221 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,119 Speaker 1: I was sort of in the front row for globalism 222 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: because air freight was starting out. You could make something 223 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: in New Delhi or in Cobble and for five dollars 224 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: and sell it the next day for twenty five dollars 225 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: in New York. So I set up a business. I 226 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: had friends at Vogue and Mademoiselle and Bloomingdale's. I built factories, 227 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: I acquired partners, and both New Delhi and Cobble I 228 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: had houses. How on earth did you know how to 229 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: do this? I didn't know anything. How did you get 230 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: it done? Just through hard work. I realized at one 231 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: point that nothing I ever will do in my life 232 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: will ever be harder than this. There were so many 233 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: things that could go wrong. The people you had to bribe, 234 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: their strikes, There's all kinds of issues. But I enjoyed it. 235 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: We were very successful. We would design clothes. It was 236 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: sort of contemporary. Remember the clothes, and uh, they were cool. 237 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: And we would do trade shows and I was selling 238 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: into the United States and in the UK and Australia. 239 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: And it became a multimillion dollar business and I was 240 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: I was living like a pasha in New Delhi and 241 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: in Cobble. That was fantastic. And I got to travel, 242 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: which was my initial goal. I got pretty much to 243 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: go almost everywhere. India had fourteen states in those days. 244 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: I hit every one of them. It was exhilarating, made 245 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: a lot of money. Had no idea what I was doing, 246 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: but I applied a lot of basic marketing principles and 247 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: stuff I had picked up along the way, And you know, 248 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: you could learn by observing others and next thing you know, 249 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: you're just figuring something out. And it was just a 250 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: longer supply chain than usual. Competitively, I was like the 251 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: only American doing this almost at the time. I would 252 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: hire designers, they would come and live and stay with me, 253 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: and we made a good product. It's very cool. So 254 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: let's jump. All that became to an end. Russians invaded Afghanistan. 255 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter Post, the president at the time, put restrictions 256 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: on and so you came back to the US. You 257 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: were hired by Warner MX Satellite Entertainment Operation, the company 258 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: owned by American Express and Warner Communications that would eventually 259 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: become MTV Networks. We were both originally brought to the 260 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: company for other jobs, by the way, before the MTV 261 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: development even began, by the incredibly charismatic John Lack, who 262 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 1: had this wonderful affliction. He liked to hire people for 263 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: roles they had never had before, and you and I 264 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: benefited from that. Although John left about a year after 265 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: MTV started, I think it is safe to say we 266 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: would not have had MTV. While there's strong support and advocacy, 267 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: and I do want to give him a shout out here, 268 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: but you got in here the cable revolution wasn't even 269 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: recognized as being a revolution. Yet, what did you think 270 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: you were getting into? I mean, this was still sort 271 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: of Mickey Mouse compared to the TV business. I thought 272 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: I was getting into one of the greatest ideas that 273 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 1: had ever come around. I had spent parts of the 274 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: summers in Europe and I was familiar with the music 275 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: video which were largely unknown to the American audiences, and 276 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: they were infectious. And when I was driven out of Asia, 277 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: I thought, whatever I do next, I wanted to be 278 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: something that I also loved deeply, and that was music. 279 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: So I'm methodically looked around getting a job in the 280 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: music business. Through connections, I ended up in John Lack's 281 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: office and I told him I thought this a fantastic idea. 282 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: He says, we're looking for people who have no experience 283 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 1: in television. I said, I'm your man. They didn't even 284 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: have television where I've been living in the last eight years. 285 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: So I thought MTV, like all of us on the team, 286 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: was really one of the great ideas and all of 287 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: us were essentially on a crusade. We got paid nothing. 288 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: It was the early eighties version of a startup, very 289 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: much so. And if you looked at the media environment 290 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: then nothing had really changed in years. The only thing 291 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: that had come around new had been FM radio. There 292 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: was still three TV networks. Pong was only a few 293 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: years old. Remember we used to say we're going to 294 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: do to FM what FM did to a M That 295 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: was our big plane channels in the home. It was 296 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: a very small group of us. They began developing MTV. 297 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: We did not have approval to do it. I got 298 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: a small budget to put together a plan. You were 299 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: the only one with the real marketing background. I was 300 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: happy to have a job. I couldn't believe anyone was 301 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: gonna hire me. We did start the channel and it 302 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: was a great consumer success, but a business failure. As 303 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: by the way, we're all the cable networks of the day. 304 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: Of course, that failure was good for you and me 305 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: and led to me being the CELO and eventually the CEO, 306 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: and you're moving up to run everything where affiliates sails 307 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: all the way to GM of the service and finally 308 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: CEO did it sort of seem like it was all 309 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: falling in place. Or was this all luck or were 310 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: you ambitious and saying I'm working at all? I was 311 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: ambitious and I was highly motivated for this to succeed. 312 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: I thought that MTV and then of course Nickelodeon and 313 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: Nick at Knight and the rest of the things. I 314 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: just thought we were in this TV revolution. We had 315 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: the wind at our back. It was all going to 316 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: come true. Was too good of an idea to fail. 317 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: You know, a lot of life is about timing and luck, 318 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: and I had somehow ended up once again in the 319 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: right place at the right time, and this was sort 320 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: of my destiny. I was going to meet my opportunity. 321 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: What you did, you know, I would say my time there. 322 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: We really proved it was a business. Were the first 323 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: cable network to make a profit. But it was really 324 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: you and your team, including Shooting Grath, who built MTV 325 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: and the other networks into this incredible media giant. What 326 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: drove that and where did that vision come from? And 327 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: how did you get there? There's a compliment to you, Bob, 328 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you are the guy always keep your eye 329 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: on the consumer, find out what the consumer one. We 330 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: would always see this research, the consumer wanted what we 331 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: were selling, and we could tune it up a bit. 332 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: And we also had this sort of slightly subversive, underground feel, 333 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: and you know, there was nothing really around like that. 334 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: And we would continue to launch new networks Comedy Central 335 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: or tv Land and in so far as taking it 336 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: around the world. The whole international world of television began 337 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: to deregulate in the late eighties. All these countries really 338 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: only had state TV pretty much, as you know. So 339 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: the confidence I had built from my years living in 340 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: Afghanistan in India was actually very transferable because I really 341 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: knew we could go anywhere and do anything. And if 342 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: we could go to Europe, we could go to Asia, 343 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: we go to Latin America. So we built really the 344 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: first worldwide television networking company, and we rolled out not 345 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: just empt V but also Nickelodeon and Comedy Central, a 346 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: lot of others right down through Africa. But then realizing 347 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: along the way, if we could develop I P and 348 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: own it like SpongeBob or Rugrats or Bavis and butt Head, 349 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: we could get into things like feature films, consumer product 350 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: licensing and build a really big business. So the business 351 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: gradually evolved from one where we would package other people's 352 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: product like a music video, to where we would increasingly 353 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: own what we did. But at the heart of it 354 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: always a creative machine, which again was something that you 355 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: put in at the inception of the company. A lot 356 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: of focus was on creating a culture that would attract 357 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: creative people. They would want to come and live there. 358 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: I mean we'd have at one point Judd Apatow or 359 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: Ben Stiller or John Stewart, Stephen Cobra, you know, Adam 360 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: Sandler would like be sleeping in the offices. Sometimes it 361 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: was a hothouse atmosphere. You were probably the first talent incubator. 362 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: I don't think they called them that back then. How 363 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: did you pull that together? Because it just really remarkable 364 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: the people we had. They came through MTV and Nickelodeon 365 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: and people have started their careers there. You gave him 366 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: the shot, well all out of his sort of what's 367 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: the vibe of the place. We always wanted to make 368 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: the room for deviancy. I would always say, who is 369 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: the odd ball person, Who's the intern who's gonna come 370 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: running in with an idea like yo MTV raps. That 371 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 1: was like a twenty one year old intern who came 372 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: up with a demo and his basement. You know, we 373 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 1: give creative people a lot of freedom because we had 374 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: these networks, there was a lot of room for experimentation. 375 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: Everything you made didn't have to be really tightly organized. 376 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: There's a lot of room for improvisation and innovation. If 377 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: you have a hallmark for that, people would want to 378 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: step up and follow. What's you just try and have 379 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: good standards, provide guard rails for people, celebrate risk. How 380 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: did you build that culture across the different networks. What's 381 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: remarkable is you not only had this cultural fit with MTV, 382 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: which had that same sort of innovation, yet a different 383 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: cultural fit with Nickelodeon and a different one with v 384 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: H one. I want to make creativity the primary aptitude 385 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: of the organization. So what I try and do is 386 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: put the person who ran the network very creative person 387 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: that would send a signal to the ranization. That was 388 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: a value we prize most. And if that creative person 389 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: could make the connection with what they did with the consumer, 390 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 1: a lot of the business stuff would kind of fall together. 391 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: But in some cases you'd hire a business person, but 392 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 1: that business person had to be seen as a fan 393 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 1: I'm a business affairs guy, and now I have this job, 394 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: and I want to know. I think you people create 395 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: the value. I'm not creating the value and deals that 396 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: I do, but it's what you guys make. And by 397 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: the way, I know what you're talking about because I 398 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: am deeply a mess in the popular culture. The fact 399 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: that we made a lot of stuff ourselves and didn't 400 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: just farm it out. You had actual creative directors and 401 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: producers and people there. Most TV networks they would just 402 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: farm stuff out to production companies. You are known for creativity, 403 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: you're sort of the crazy guy that sets this wonderful culture. 404 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: But I know you use a lot of research and insights. 405 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: How do you fit the research and the insights into 406 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 1: something that's sort of that creative I never talked about 407 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: business to anybody whatever. We would speak to creative people. 408 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: Maybe this is because the business was always going so 409 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: good we didn't have to, but we would never really 410 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: talk about how much revenue came in or how much 411 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: we're off our budget, and we would celebrate any kind 412 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: of creative triumph. So that also kind of reinforced the 413 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: notion that we are a creative first organization. Just hold 414 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: on a second, because we've got so much more to 415 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: talk about. We'll be back after a quick break. Welcome 416 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: back to Math and Magic. We're here with Tom Freston. 417 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: When we launched MTV, you were the head of marketing. 418 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: The cable operator wouldn't put m TV on. They wanted 419 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: us to pay them one, we didn't have the money, 420 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: and too that was probably a slippery slope, and so 421 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: we decided we would use a poll strategy to get distribution. 422 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: I want my MTV tell me the evolution of how 423 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: that came down, because that's clearly one of the legendary 424 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: ad campaigns of the past thirty or forty years. Well, 425 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 1: it was sort of a hail Mary passed because you 426 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 1: know we're about to go under. I mean I did 427 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 1: talking about not talking about business. No one in the 428 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: organization knew we were about to go under. So how 429 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: are we going to get these cable operators at us? 430 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: When we knew, in fact that the people who actually 431 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: had it in a few towns where it existed, they 432 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: loved it. They were fanatical about it. Back then, music 433 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 1: was the centerpiece of culture, so there was a very 434 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: strong emotional button you could push. Ideas, if we could 435 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: get major rock stars in a commercial to kind of 436 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: hold our logo validated, hold it and command people to 437 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,719 Speaker 1: call their cable company and demand their MTV make it 438 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: look cool, put some animation around it, and then put 439 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: it in these markets at very high frequency. We go 440 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 1: into a market and it would be like a blockbuster 441 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: movie was opening. Most people in the market had never 442 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 1: heard of MTV. Next thing, you know, every cable operator 443 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: there were eleven of them in the market, which would 444 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: not be unusual time they'd all call up and surrender. 445 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: So we would move a market by market for a 446 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: couple of years across the country, going from like what 447 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: was seven million subscribers ended up being eighty or ninety million. Well, 448 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: there's a lesson in this too that you've always done 449 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: very very well, which is harnessing the power of partners. 450 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: And in the case of I want my MTV music 451 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: stars who were willing to be in the commercial for 452 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: free to help us accomplish our goals, but you also 453 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: have music companies and others. Talk to me a little 454 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: bit about how you harness that kind of power of 455 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 1: partners and how you think about partners in business. In 456 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: that business and almost any business, partners were essentially, but 457 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: they say on the music side, our partners were the 458 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 1: record companies and the artists. And you know, in any partnership, 459 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: someone had to give something. And the most important thing 460 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: to a record company was to be able to take 461 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,719 Speaker 1: an artist out of nowhere and sort of what they 462 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: would say, break him and make him popularize in some extent, 463 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: and MTV was like the tool to do that, and 464 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: there was a lot of competition to get videos on 465 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: the air when MTV was in his prime. What's your 466 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: real priority, mr. Record company? We will take care of you, 467 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: but in return we want a few things too. There 468 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: was an example there when we used the power of 469 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: fighting brand. When Ted Turner came after in TV. We 470 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: were just ready to go public and barely got out 471 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 1: public because he announced in the face of it with 472 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: the cable music channel, and we fronted the battle with 473 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: our fighting brand VH one. At the time, we invented 474 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: VH one to go against Ted Turner. Tell me a 475 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: little bit about that story, because you were right smack 476 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,719 Speaker 1: dab in the middle of that was a classic fighting 477 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: brand thing you would have seen in the world of 478 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: package goods, like back in my day's working at Procter 479 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: and gambling an ad agency where you're trying to thwart 480 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: a new competitor with Ted Turner want to come in 481 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: and basically p in our parade. He said he was 482 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: going to launch a music channel that played like none 483 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: of the Devil's music. Let me say first that the 484 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: cable music channel lasted a hundred one days on the 485 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: air and he had to fold up and go home. 486 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: But we decided we can't let this happen, and if 487 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: there's going to be a second music channel, we should 488 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: have a second music channel, and we made the case 489 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: to cable operations, we have a second music channel. You 490 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: don't want to add the Ted Turner channel. That's just 491 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: gonna go head to head against the one you already have. 492 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: Add VH one, which was called the Very Hot One 493 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: at the time, because it would be more compatible and 494 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: it would play artists for another demo and we would 495 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: sell it tu on a combo basis. Basically it was 496 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: free if you already had MTV, so he couldn't get distribute, 497 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: and he'd already kind of detegrated as image wise by 498 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: putting himself in some kind of Christian rock station, and 499 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: we strangled him in terms of not being able to 500 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: get distribution. Therefore, no advertising, no revenue, no light on 501 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: the end of the tunnel, and he went out of 502 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: business and we went forward. Let's jump to the evolution 503 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: of MTV and building this amazing brand. You lad the 504 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: jump from just music videos to long form programs, including 505 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: in the process the invention if you will, really a 506 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 1: reality TV. Why how Well, there's a couple of factors there. 507 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: One was our in house creative force, in a way 508 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: was always looking to do more, and do more, and 509 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: create and do more stuff. So packaging hours of ten 510 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: different music videos, they were always looking for ways to 511 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: put new spins on that and so forth. The other 512 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: thing was that the music video format was beginning to wane, 513 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: and as we were bigger, our audience ratings on which 514 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: we sold advertising was beginning to create her and unless 515 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: we put some spikes in there, we could see ourselves 516 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: live on a road to some kind of oblivion. We 517 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: couldn't just innovate it by shuffling the music mix or 518 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: changing things. That was clear. We tried everything. We just 519 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: couldn't play the top ten videos all day long. So 520 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: we thought we would follow a strategy that we've seen 521 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: Rolling Stone utilize successfully, which was when there's lulls in 522 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: the music business, they would be talking about movies or comedy. 523 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: David Letterman would be on the cover. We could be 524 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,719 Speaker 1: about a lot of the things the music was about 525 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: and still keep our music first image fashion. With Cindy 526 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: Crawford and we decided to beef up our music news 527 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: right and just make it sort of a throwaway. We 528 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: brought in Curt Loader, incredible journalists, and we put shows 529 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: on the air, and when we put a show on 530 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: the air, the ratings will be two to three times 531 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: higher than just running music videos. We would also try 532 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: and refresh the look the field in the style at 533 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: a network every three or four or five years, because 534 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: the demo kind of passes it through it, so we'd 535 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: reinvent it so there was always new shows coming around. 536 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: We would add shows on package music and like on 537 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: hip hop music with the OMTV raps and so forth, 538 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: and it kind of came down to the real world 539 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: there that was re and that was like, well, we've 540 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: tried everything else, we should probably do a soap opera. 541 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: Because young people are interested in what other young people 542 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: are doing, so they came in with a presentation to me, 543 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 1: and we had to hire writers, and I said, well, 544 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 1: you know, we don't have any money to hire writers, 545 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 1: so we can't do this. So then Doug Herzog came 546 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: back and said, you know, we're really good at post production, 547 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: that's our major skill. What if we just rented Aloft 548 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: and Soho and stuck some cameras in there and bring 549 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: these kids in and then let them live and then 550 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: we'll post it afterwards and make it into a show. 551 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: And that was That was sort of the birth of 552 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 1: reality TV. It was an idea that was not born 553 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: of brilliance but born of cheap skateness. MTV was always 554 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: embedded in the youth culture, and as a matter of fact, 555 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 1: you and I years ago had the discussion about should 556 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: we grow up with this audience or should we give 557 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,719 Speaker 1: up this audience and continue to get a new audience 558 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: to be the voice of young America. You took it seriously. 559 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: I think you also, in terms of being the voice 560 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: of young America, also represented their desire to do good 561 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: and make a difference. I was there for Live a 562 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: far made some of that, but you took it much broader, 563 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: much deeper than any TV network had ever dared Choose 564 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: or Lose? Would you want to Peabody Award for Rock 565 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: the Vote programming about lgbt Q rights, substance abuse, gun violence, health, 566 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 1: gender and more. What was the philosophy? What drove you? 567 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: We knew it was important to our audience. I also 568 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: knew it was extremely important to the employee base. Employees 569 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: would feel better about working there if they knew we 570 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: had some kind of social purpose associated with what we 571 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: would do, and we had a hundred sixty eight hours 572 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: a week, we could certainly squeeze it in. It also 573 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,199 Speaker 1: turned out, like we Choose or Lose, for example, it 574 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: legitimized us in the eyes of advertisers who formally wouldn't 575 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: come near us, like American Express. But most importantly, the 576 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,959 Speaker 1: audience liked it. I would ask every network to come 577 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: up with a couple of social purpose campaigns a year, 578 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: so it really became part of the DNA of the company. 579 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: So before we get to Tom freston three point oh, 580 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: let's hit sum of the red Stone. He says he 581 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: took control of Viacom way back in nine seven because 582 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: of the dinner he had with you and Jerry Leborne 583 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: when he took over. I think it's fair to say 584 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: you and MTV Networks were now the center of Viacom. 585 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: You were the star. Fast forward decades later, after you 586 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: did this wonderful solid Sumner has made you first coach 587 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: CEO of Viacom, then CEO of i Com. When he 588 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: split by a coming CBS, you were the guy. And then, 589 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, or at least it appeared to 590 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: be all of a sudden, it's reported that he's furiosued 591 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: in my my Space and actually fires you, shocks the 592 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: industry and alienates him from the creative community and clearly 593 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: makes you this martyr hero or whatever. Is that really 594 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: what came down that sort of you know, I was 595 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: sort of shocked. I had had two incidents with him 596 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: that didn't go well. I become the CEO of the 597 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: new Viacom public company that included Paramount Pictures and the 598 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: MTV Networks and a few other businesses, and I had 599 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: had a fight with him over my Space. We were 600 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: looking to morph ourselves into the digital world with acquisitions, 601 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: and we were looking at my Space as a possibility. 602 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: They were then the social network leader. I remember Facebook 603 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: was really just still only for that was the fake 604 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: Friendster was dead and it was the Facebook. So one 605 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: weekend when we were talking to the folks out in California, 606 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: Rupert Murdoch came in like on a high horse, over 607 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: a weekend and he bought it with no due diligence 608 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: or anything, for five D seventy million dollars. Summers thought 609 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: that was a great defeat. He wanted that Charlie row 610 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: show saying, you know, I've been totally disgraced. Meanwhile, Rupert 611 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: Murdoch now was his pictures on magazine as a new 612 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: media hero, and Sumner's real competitor in life was Rupert Murdoch, 613 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: and Rupert Murdoch showed him up and made me look bad. 614 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: I also had had my first fight with him a 615 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: couple of weeks before that, which was over Tom Cruise. 616 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: He decided he was gonna fire Tom Cruise and called 617 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: a press conference to his house. His Tom Cruise had 618 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: been jumping up and down on Oprah's couch and he 619 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: thought Tom Cruise had to go. And I said, you 620 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: can't fire him. He doesn't work for us, first of all. 621 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: But that was a big screaming match that didn't go 622 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: down well. And then a couple of weeks later, on 623 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: Labor Day he brought me over to his house and 624 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: fired me. And I was like, wow, this is after 625 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: twenty years of working with him, of continual growth and performance. 626 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: So I was kind of shocked. God, I must say 627 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: it turned out to be a blessing, A blessing for sure. 628 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: It was. It was the best way to go. I 629 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: had been there twenty six years overall, so it was 630 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: a quarter of a century as a time to turn 631 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: the page. Well also as a friend who watched you closely, 632 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: you had an obligation, and I think it's safe to 633 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: say you would have never felt like you could leave 634 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: MTV Networks or Viacom through that sense of obligation. And 635 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: he read you and you went on to be um 636 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: freston three point Oh yeah, let's get into that before 637 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,959 Speaker 1: we do that. Did someth ever, thank you for not 638 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: getting my Space? No? When Rupert Murdoch sold it for 639 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: thirty five million dollars, I saw his daughter was still 640 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: waiting for thank you know, but it never came. When 641 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: this happened, I remember the time you were totally in demand. 642 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: You've turned down great job after great job to run companies. 643 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: You were a few us to go that route why 644 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: the first thing I did was just do nothing. Sometimes 645 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: you see people get fired from a job and then 646 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: the next thing you know, they're working the next day 647 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: somewhere else. But I decided I would let things come 648 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: into focus a bit, and I realized that I'm gonna 649 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: work with people that I like on things I'm really 650 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: passionate about. I was never a mainstream business guy, and 651 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: I had a business out of Afghanistan, Indio. When you 652 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: hired me an MTV, this was a fringey, underground startup 653 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: and I basically was there and built it. It was 654 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: like we had equity and this is it was the 655 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: nexus of all the things. I loved, animation, music, film, 656 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: so I really felt like it was sort of partially 657 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: my company. I didn't feel like being grafted onto the 658 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: top of a company like say a Yahoo or something. 659 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: It just didn't turn me on. And I felt the 660 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: last two business chapters in my life have been things 661 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: that was really passionate about. I didn't feel that, and 662 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: I just said, well, maybe I could have another hype 663 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: of life and have a more portfolio approach. Instead of 664 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: taking a single big job, I could do a bunch 665 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: of different things, and that's essentially what I've been doing 666 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: four or five or six different types of things. So 667 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: one with Bono you spent a lot of time on that. 668 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: How did that happen? Well, I had built up a 669 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: relationship with him over the years. I mean you two 670 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: and MTV kind of came up together. The day after 671 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: I got fired, I was in l A. He called 672 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: me on the phone. He just said, hey, if why 673 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: don't you come run RED? I know no, he said. 674 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: He had Bill Gates calling me and Steve Jobs saying 675 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: I should take this job. So he kind of got 676 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: my interest up, but I said no, I'm not gonna 677 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: do anything right now. A few months later, his manager 678 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: implored me to come and meet with him in France 679 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: because I fell in love with what they were doing. 680 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: I met this whole other group of young people who 681 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: were activists. They were in a whole different world from 682 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: any young people I had worked with before, and I 683 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: said I would stay on as the board chair. And 684 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: I've been doing that for twelve years. The one campaign 685 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: we've got ten million members, which also includes Red, which 686 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: is where's you know? Almost seven million dollars for the 687 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: Global Fund for HIV AIDS. Amazing. I know you were 688 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: advising Oprah for a while. You were at Moby Group 689 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: Mobi Group. That was the first thing I did. I 690 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: went back to Afghana brought TV. Yeah, essentially went back 691 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: to work in Afghanistan several months a year to teach 692 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: people how to run a TV network, which was totally 693 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: exhilarating and really full circle for me. The network itself 694 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: was really a platform for social change they've never really had. 695 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: It plugged him into the outside world, connecting them with 696 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,719 Speaker 1: each other, you know, gender equality, all those types of things. 697 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: Despite the fact that the war is still going on. 698 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: I mean, their business is still relatively unaffected, which shows 699 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: you the power. And they're going around the world now right. 700 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: We had a network in Iran we've had to shutdown. 701 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: We had one in Yemen we've had to shut down. 702 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: We had one in Ethiopia, which is really exciting, one 703 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: of my favorite countries in Africa that's doing well. They 704 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: just opened up their economy to a lot of things, 705 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: including private media. So Afghanistan and Ethiopia are the two 706 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: main businesses. Vice I've heard advice until you told me 707 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: about it. You spotted that really early, did an investment. 708 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: What did you see there? And I know you're still 709 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: helping them in what do you think the future there is? Well, 710 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: I saw there was another youth brand, you know, a good, 711 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: strong youth brand. They really kind of come from the streets. 712 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: I mean MTV basically was a startup with a lot 713 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: of people from the streets. Even though he had two 714 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: parents who didn't really care and know about us, we 715 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: kind of went off and did that. Vice started off 716 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,919 Speaker 1: as a magazine in Toronto. They started off doing really 717 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: edgy stuff and they would distribute it free and boutiques 718 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: and they would distribute like a million copies that is 719 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: in all these countries. And at one point Shane Smith, 720 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: who's this early leader of Vice, he realized that when 721 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: YouTube came around in nineteen two thousand and six, that 722 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: this was a big change, that that was a platform 723 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: that's gonna go into people's home with video. And if 724 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: he could take their storytelling ability that they had sort 725 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: of god with a good ear on the ground in 726 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: their magazine and translated into video, working with Spike Jones 727 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: and other people, they could create a business. So I 728 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: went on their board, invested with them. I still work 729 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: with them. I think they built a great news brand 730 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: on HBO they've had like thirty three Emmy nominations, but 731 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: if you add it up, they had like three d 732 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: million users worldwide, half their businesses outside the country. They've 733 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: got at its heart a creative enterprise. Again, as we 734 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: began to wrap up, let's focus on a couple of 735 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,720 Speaker 1: big lessons. How can you grow a hip and cool 736 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,919 Speaker 1: company into being the establishment and yet avoid becoming the man. 737 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 1: One of the few people who have done that, You 738 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 1: try and uh, you know, stay close to your roots. 739 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I was never a mainstream guy, never aspired 740 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: to be a fortune five hundred CEO or have a 741 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: mainstream business. And I felt that a lot of our 742 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,760 Speaker 1: businesses were successful because they kind of had like whiskers 743 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: on in the way they were there. There were sort 744 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: of mainstream, there were always a little underground, but we 745 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 1: were sort of ahead of our time. So I always 746 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: tried to keep people focused on we're not as big 747 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: as we think we are. We're gonna stay humble, We're 748 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: gonna reinvent, reinvent, reinvent. And my gut was I just 749 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: never wanted to be a traditional businessman in my soul. 750 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: I still don't. How did you spot great ideas and 751 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 1: how do you still spot great ideas? And how do 752 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: you spot the great new talent? A lot of it's thinktual. 753 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: If you're trying to do something in the youth culture, 754 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: it's really about who are you gonna hire who really 755 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: has their ear to the ground, because it's a young world, 756 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: and no matter how up to date you think you are, 757 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 1: you're really sort of out of it. I would see 758 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,320 Speaker 1: this happen in the music business, for example, with David Kiffin, 759 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: who had excellent ear for artists in the seventies and 760 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 1: in the sixties, but then in the eighties he began 761 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: to falter, and he had an epiphany, I'm gonna hire 762 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: gooda and our guys who know what they're doing. So 763 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,439 Speaker 1: how do you your post seventy now managed to stay 764 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: so connected to the youth culture and fresh ideas, which 765 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: I think everyone would agree you do and do it 766 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: remarkably well. I still read voraciously everything I get my 767 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: hands on, listen to everything I can. It's hard these 768 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: days as the music has kind of moved into silos 769 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: and the middles disappeared all the publications and places we 770 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: used to rely upon to find about what's new. You've 771 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: gotta like look deeper, but you know, as you get 772 00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: at the things like Spotify and Higheart, so I just 773 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: use Instagram. I kind of think facebooks are like the 774 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: Frankenstein monster of our age. I've seen firsthand what it's 775 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: done in other countries, like in Burma with the Rohingas, 776 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,359 Speaker 1: where it's the sole news source. It can be really 777 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: hijacked by people. But Instagram's fun. Of all the things 778 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: I've done in my career, MTV is certainly unique in 779 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: a small band of us made an impact together. We 780 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: were at the dawn of our careers. You Shooting mc grath, 781 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: John Sykes, s Fred Cybert, Mark Bouth and I were 782 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,280 Speaker 1: recently inducted into the Cable Hall of Famous. The MTV 783 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,320 Speaker 1: Founders is the MTV early days, starting it when the 784 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,879 Speaker 1: odds were against this. That a special part for you too. 785 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: That was the best part. I love my years in 786 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: Afghanistan and India. That was making something out of nothing, 787 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: but to ride an idea that you believed in with 788 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: a group of people who were making no money and 789 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: have it turned into a worldwide phenomena. I mean it 790 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: was incredible. All of a sudden, you know, you couldn't 791 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: get arrested and then you know you're being wined and 792 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,359 Speaker 1: dined everywhere. People were beating a path through our door. 793 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: It was a fantastic time. Always wrap up the podcast 794 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 1: with the same note we began math, the insights and 795 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: data and magic the creativity that's built on those insights 796 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: and excites consumers and fans. Think about it for a second. 797 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: Who's the greatest math person you know or have known? 798 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: There's no single person I suppose I could point to 799 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: Bob whose name I could associate with being a great 800 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 1: data master. So let's move to the magic side. Who's 801 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: the greatest show person, the magician that just seems to 802 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 1: be able to take a germ of an idea and 803 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: turn into something brilliant. Well, I think you'll ever be 804 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 1: able to beat Steve Jobs. I mean Steve Jobs was 805 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: a master of everything. Like they say, you to create 806 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 1: something that no one seemed to want. If you were 807 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: doing research about it, you never would have done THEE 808 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,880 Speaker 1: And then this comes to you perfectly packaged, and then 809 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 1: you know, improved upon repeatedly with product after product. He 810 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,399 Speaker 1: would be number one and number two in my book. Tom, 811 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: you are one of a kind, wonderful friend. Thanks for 812 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,839 Speaker 1: joining us and thanks for the stories. Hey, thanks Bob, 813 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: it's great to be here. Here are a few things 814 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: I picked up from my conversation with Tom One. One 815 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:10,959 Speaker 1: of the keys to Tom's creative success has been telling 816 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: its talent to stay humble and not get full of themselves. 817 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: As he told his staff at MTV, we're gonna stay humble. 818 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 1: We're gonna reinvent, reinvent, reinvent too. According to Tom, great 819 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: ideas can come out of cheap skateness. As he puts it, 820 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 1: the Real World would have been a traditional soap opera 821 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: if MTV had had the money, but instead, less money 822 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: forced the company to get creative and invent reality TV three. 823 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: One of Tom's big realizations was that Viacom could be 824 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: a bigger company if it created its own i P. 825 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 1: By owning things like SpongeBob, rug Rats, and Beavis and 826 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: butt Head. It allowed the company to get into feature 827 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: films and licensing and make a bigger business for It's 828 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: such simple advice, but Tom stays on top of trends 829 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: by reading everything can get his hands on. It's how 830 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: he keeps up with trends, and it's how he discovered 831 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:08,800 Speaker 1: vice before so many others did. I'm Bob Pittman. Thanks 832 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: for listening. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much 833 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,279 Speaker 1: for listening to Math and Magic, a production of I 834 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,760 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. The show is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special 835 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,959 Speaker 1: thanks to Sue Schillinger for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, 836 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: which is no small feat. Nikki Eatre for pulling research, 837 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 1: Bill Plax and Michael Asar for their recording help, our editor, 838 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: Ryan Murdoch, and of course Gayle Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel 839 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,760 Speaker 1: Mango and everyone who helped bring this show to your ears. 840 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: Until next time,