1
00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:06,040
Speaker 1: On September fourteenth, twenty fourteen, twenty three year old Hannah

2
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,480
Speaker 1: Witherich and twenty four year old David Miller, who'd only

3
00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,400
Speaker 1: just met by chance on Catau, were talking at the

4
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:17,160
Speaker 1: ac Bar. The pair, both from the UK, left the

5
00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,720
Speaker 1: bar together around one am. It was the last time

6
00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,439
Speaker 1: either of them was seen alive. Early the next morning,

7
00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:30,240
Speaker 1: on September fifteenth, a beach cleaner found their partially clad bodies.

8
00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,239
Speaker 1: David was floating in the water, Hannah was found on

9
00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:41,120
Speaker 1: the sand, the waves lapping over her. Detectives discovered a

10
00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,560
Speaker 1: garden hoe covered in blood near their bodies, and autopsy

11
00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,320
Speaker 1: revealed that David had scratches on his back and water

12
00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:53,040
Speaker 1: in his lungs, indicating he'd drowned. Hannah's body was covered

13
00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:59,200
Speaker 1: in wounds, bruising and scratches. Their deaths sparked international outrage

14
00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:05,480
Speaker 1: and question about a lack of justice on Katau. Welcome

15
00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,119
Speaker 1: to Death Island a production of Kati's Studios and iHeartRadio

16
00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,360
Speaker 1: episode nine, The Case against way Po and Zouln.

17
00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:21,080
Speaker 2: I'm Connor Powell, an investigative journalist at kat Studios, with

18
00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:25,840
Speaker 2: Stephanie Lydecker, Courtney Armstrong, Andrew Arnow and Jeff Shane.

19
00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,840
Speaker 1: After three months of deliberations, the court adjourned, the prosecution

20
00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,680
Speaker 1: asked for the death penalty, and the fate of Zouln

21
00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:47,040
Speaker 1: and Waypo rests with the three judges. Mala, the audio

22
00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,640
Speaker 1: you just heard was from the documentary Murder in Paradise.

23
00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,880
Speaker 1: It's one of the mothers standing on the courtroom step saying,

24
00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,480
Speaker 1: please release my son. Please, My son did not do this.

25
00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,880
Speaker 1: The judges announced the verdict. ZiU Lyn and Wapo are

26
00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:10,480
Speaker 1: found guilty. They're sentenced the death penalty. In our years

27
00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,359
Speaker 1: of following this case, we've encountered many people who question

28
00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,359
Speaker 1: of the Thai government convicted the right people for the crime.

29
00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,680
Speaker 1: We should note that the family of David Miller firmly

30
00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,920
Speaker 1: believes justice was done based on the evidence presented at

31
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,120
Speaker 1: the trial. We should also note that any and all

32
00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,520
Speaker 1: Tavichian family members have been cleared by Thai officials of

33
00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:30,960
Speaker 1: any connection to this crime.

34
00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,800
Speaker 2: Here's connor So especially what happened in this case is

35
00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,560
Speaker 2: that the Tavichian family are one of the big mafia

36
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,560
Speaker 2: families on this island. They own one of the three

37
00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,400
Speaker 2: or four areas of this island, and they own Sorry Beach,

38
00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,399
Speaker 2: which is where all the parties and the hotels generally are.

39
00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:52,320
Speaker 2: The very first day, the police fingered Tavichian as the

40
00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,840
Speaker 2: guy who either did the murder or oversaw the murder.

41
00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,520
Speaker 2: That didn't land particularly well with Koto's rolling family and

42
00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,360
Speaker 2: the police that were on the island, and so they

43
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,200
Speaker 2: immediately started looking at other people. But the first twenty

44
00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,639
Speaker 2: four hours the police statements pointed a finger at Tavichian,

45
00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,040
Speaker 2: but being their place on the island in Thai politics,

46
00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,720
Speaker 2: they started a massive campaign to take DNA from Burmese

47
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,760
Speaker 2: migrants who were on the island working. There were three

48
00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,880
Speaker 2: Burmese boys who were in the area self and middly

49
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,840
Speaker 2: playing the guitar on the beach and drinking. They arrested

50
00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,800
Speaker 2: all three. One of them worked for the Tuwichian family.

51
00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,880
Speaker 2: He's released. The other two are in the area. They

52
00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,120
Speaker 2: get fingered as the guys who killed Hannah and David.

53
00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,840
Speaker 2: The police drop all reference to Tavichian as the main suspect,

54
00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,960
Speaker 2: and the police officer who made that announcement is discharged

55
00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:43,320
Speaker 2: and basically sent away.

56
00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,720
Speaker 1: If Wapo and zal Len are innocent, then who might

57
00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,560
Speaker 1: be responsible for the deaths of David Miller and Hannah

58
00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,600
Speaker 1: with Rich. If you remember, there was the quote running

59
00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:00,400
Speaker 1: Man video. CSILA is the Facebook group that David A

60
00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,320
Speaker 1: runs and some of the members had an interesting takeaway

61
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,880
Speaker 1: from that video when compared to the video of the

62
00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,440
Speaker 1: three Burmese on the motorcycle. There are some members of

63
00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,760
Speaker 1: CSILA who observed that the three men are wearing dark

64
00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,640
Speaker 1: pants in the video, while the Running Man was captured

65
00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:20,600
Speaker 1: on CCTV wearing light colored shorts. Also, there were reports

66
00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,360
Speaker 1: that David Miller got into an altercation with someone at

67
00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,080
Speaker 1: the Acbar. Another report noted that Hannah got into an

68
00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,599
Speaker 1: incident with an employee at the Acbar. During the trial,

69
00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,440
Speaker 1: there was some more information provided about this. Here's veteran

70
00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,360
Speaker 1: international journalist Sarah Yun who lived on Thailand for eight years.

71
00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,479
Speaker 1: She reported on the arrest and subsequent trial of the

72
00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:42,680
Speaker 1: Burmese immigrants.

73
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,240
Speaker 3: The nephew of the man who owned the bar where

74
00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,680
Speaker 3: these two young people were last seen before their deaths.

75
00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,359
Speaker 3: He was implicated in their deaths by certain people I

76
00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,159
Speaker 3: understand on the island. I don't know who, but I

77
00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,479
Speaker 3: know that they'd spoken to the investigating A officers and

78
00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,560
Speaker 3: suggested that this man may have been involved, and we

79
00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,360
Speaker 3: got some hearsay information that he and Hannah had had

80
00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,440
Speaker 3: some level of a relationship, whether it was simply they

81
00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,039
Speaker 3: liked each other and had been talking or more than that.

82
00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,920
Speaker 3: And so I was told that he was in the

83
00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,359
Speaker 3: AC Bar where they were last seen at two o'clock

84
00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,359
Speaker 3: in the morning on that evening. The police in court

85
00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,760
Speaker 3: said that they knew there had been a fight in

86
00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,159
Speaker 3: the AC Bar on the night that Hannah and David

87
00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,880
Speaker 3: were murdered, and when asked if they had followed up

88
00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,279
Speaker 3: this information that there had been a fight, they stared

89
00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,920
Speaker 3: straight back at the lead judge and said, no, we

90
00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,520
Speaker 3: never followed it up, And he said, why did you

91
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,320
Speaker 3: not follow it up, and the police officer replied, we

92
00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:45,600
Speaker 3: didn't think it was relevant.

93
00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,760
Speaker 1: Namsatovichian, who has been formally cleared of all charges, claims

94
00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,719
Speaker 1: he was in Bangkok at University all weekend and was

95
00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,200
Speaker 1: not on Cataw the night of Hannah and David's murder.

96
00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,040
Speaker 1: Tavichian provided a video that shows whom on CCTV cameras

97
00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,480
Speaker 1: in Bangkok at the time, but there are some who

98
00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:09,839
Speaker 1: suggest that there are jumps in the footage and that

99
00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,320
Speaker 1: the time stamp appears to be altered. One way to

100
00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,840
Speaker 1: verify I Tavichian was on the island the night of

101
00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,479
Speaker 1: Hannan David's murder is to check the CCTV cameras at

102
00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:20,719
Speaker 1: the dark on Katao.

103
00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,520
Speaker 3: There are three hundred CCTV cameras on Kotail. They claim

104
00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,920
Speaker 3: two hundred were not working. And when asked if they'd

105
00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,800
Speaker 3: looked at the camera at the dock where the boats

106
00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:32,840
Speaker 3: come in and the early morning boat goes out with

107
00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,400
Speaker 3: five am, which was about two hours after that Hanrh

108
00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,560
Speaker 3: and David were said to have been murdered and the

109
00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,400
Speaker 3: potential first speedboat could have gone to Bangkok with the

110
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,040
Speaker 3: nephew of the headman, And they said, we never looked

111
00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,320
Speaker 3: at those cameras, and we don't think that's relevant either.

112
00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,040
Speaker 3: You know, he was back in Bangkok by nine am,

113
00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,800
Speaker 3: but it isn't impossible to get a speedboat to Bangkok

114
00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,000
Speaker 3: by nine am. As the Thai reporters were aware.

115
00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,880
Speaker 1: During the very brief period that Vician was considered a suspect,

116
00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,000
Speaker 1: the Tie police conducted a DNA test.

117
00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:09,080
Speaker 3: On him, and so they did a DNA test on

118
00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,160
Speaker 3: television of this young man who was only about twenty

119
00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,320
Speaker 3: four and the police senior investigating officer told the court

120
00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,960
Speaker 3: that that DNA report had never been released to him

121
00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,520
Speaker 3: and he had never received anything from the DNA testing

122
00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:24,320
Speaker 3: of that young man.

123
00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:25,920
Speaker 4: He said this in court.

124
00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,960
Speaker 3: Yes, in court they said did you test the nephew

125
00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,080
Speaker 3: of the headman on the island, And the senior police

126
00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,080
Speaker 3: investigating officer said yes, I did. And then they said okay,

127
00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,840
Speaker 3: and what were the results? And he said, I never

128
00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,680
Speaker 3: received it. I was told I would receive a report,

129
00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,320
Speaker 3: but I never did. And so the judge said to him, well,

130
00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,240
Speaker 3: did you chase it up? You know, did you try

131
00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,520
Speaker 3: and elicit yourself? And he said no, And so then

132
00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:53,760
Speaker 3: they moved on and the defense did not stand up

133
00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,440
Speaker 3: and say what do you mean? No, no, Why did

134
00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,640
Speaker 3: you not do this when it was done on television too?

135
00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,200
Speaker 3: You know, there's a typee we're asking questions.

136
00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,520
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in

137
00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:22,080
Speaker 1: a moment. Attorney in Yarwood has been following the case

138
00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 1: for years. He provides his opinion on the DNA test

139
00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,240
Speaker 1: that was conducted on Davichian.

140
00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,560
Speaker 5: Same with Somyach, who was the chief of police from

141
00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:35,640
Speaker 5: the first October twenty fourteen, which was the time when

142
00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:40,560
Speaker 5: the two young Burmese guys were arrested until twelve months later.

143
00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,480
Speaker 5: And in that twelve month period, he was going out

144
00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,920
Speaker 5: of his way to scapegoat the two Burmese guys. He

145
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,000
Speaker 5: went to the extraordinary length of appearing in a press

146
00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,800
Speaker 5: conference with non Sod who's his son, and a warrock

147
00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,200
Speaker 5: Pan who's the headman. But you know, the chief of

148
00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,679
Speaker 5: police turns up in a press conference with them and

149
00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,320
Speaker 5: they do a bit of theater whereby Non Sood gives

150
00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,920
Speaker 5: a cheek swab or a bugal swab for a DNA test,

151
00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,120
Speaker 5: but no one else can see what the result of

152
00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,840
Speaker 5: that test is. There's nothing scientific about it. There's no transparency.

153
00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,200
Speaker 5: But he says, look, you know, we can prove that

154
00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:18,840
Speaker 5: he was not one of the rapists, and if he

155
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:20,960
Speaker 5: wasn't one of the rapists, he wasn't one of the murderers.

156
00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,640
Speaker 5: I just thought that the convictions of the two Burmese

157
00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:28,040
Speaker 5: guys were completely outrageous. It was abundantly clear to me

158
00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:32,600
Speaker 5: that they were convicted on completely bogus DNA evidence. It

159
00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,320
Speaker 5: should never ever have been accepted by the judges.

160
00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,560
Speaker 1: Scholar David Struckfast estimated and in a given year, the

161
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,000
Speaker 1: conviction rate and high courts for certain charges was ninety

162
00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:44,560
Speaker 1: eight percent.

163
00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,240
Speaker 5: So basically, Thai courts really just act like rubber stamps,

164
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:52,720
Speaker 5: and quite often we find that the judges don't really

165
00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,800
Speaker 5: understand the evidence. They don't really care about the evidence.

166
00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,720
Speaker 5: They've already made up their minds where it's going to happen.

167
00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,880
Speaker 1: Here again. Connor speaking with Sarah Yun.

168
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,480
Speaker 4: I'm curious when the conviction came down, the ruling of guilty,

169
00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:09,960
Speaker 4: what went through your mind.

170
00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,960
Speaker 3: I got the information and I was angry. And it

171
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,000
Speaker 3: isn't an attachment like some people say, like doctors, you

172
00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,480
Speaker 3: shouldn't get to attach to the story you're covering. It

173
00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:26,200
Speaker 3: wasn't attachment. It was injustice, justice, enormous sense of injustice

174
00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,160
Speaker 3: that this is not right, something is not right. I

175
00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:33,800
Speaker 3: was so angry that people could sit in court and

176
00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:38,319
Speaker 3: say these outrageous things that made it so clear that

177
00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,920
Speaker 3: what they claimed had happened was not the case, and

178
00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,240
Speaker 3: then that the court could convict. I remember my family

179
00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:45,880
Speaker 3: saying to me, you know, oh, come on, you know

180
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,560
Speaker 3: that there's no justice in this world. You know that's normal,

181
00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,839
Speaker 3: And it was like, but it was bare faced injustice

182
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:53,840
Speaker 3: it was so bare faced.

183
00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,200
Speaker 1: After the verdict was announced, David Miller's brother give a

184
00:10:59,200 --> 00:10:59,960
Speaker 1: statement to the press.

185
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:05,880
Speaker 6: Yes, we believe that after a difficult start, the Royal

186
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:11,720
Speaker 6: type Police conducted a methodical and thorough investigation, having listened

187
00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,880
Speaker 6: carefully to all the evidence, and despite what their lawyers say,

188
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,319
Speaker 6: it is our opinion that the evidence against Wapo and

189
00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:25,840
Speaker 6: Zorlin is absolutely overwhelming. They raped to satisfy their selfish

190
00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,360
Speaker 6: desires and murdered to cover up that fact. They have

191
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,920
Speaker 6: shown no remorse during the trial.

192
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:37,720
Speaker 5: Again, Ian your word, Ian Miller and Sue Miller. Appearance

193
00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:42,680
Speaker 5: of David Miller. They and their surviving son, Michael. You know,

194
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,599
Speaker 5: they came out on the steps of the Samui Provincial

195
00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,600
Speaker 5: Court after the two Burmese guys were convicted of murder,

196
00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,320
Speaker 5: and Michael delivered a well it It was a very

197
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:59,280
Speaker 5: sort of powerful speech and he was actually heavily praising

198
00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,080
Speaker 5: the world type police for their investigation.

199
00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,480
Speaker 3: And mister Miller has worked internationally for all his career,

200
00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:07,960
Speaker 3: so I know that he knew what was being said

201
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,160
Speaker 3: was the same as what I was hearing. And at

202
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:11,920
Speaker 3: one point he said to me, I just want someone

203
00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:12,559
Speaker 3: to be guilty.

204
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,680
Speaker 4: Wait on hold on, you had a conversation with mister Miller.

205
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,280
Speaker 3: We did have a conversation. I went to the end

206
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,920
Speaker 3: of the balcony with him outside the courtroom and I said, look,

207
00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,920
Speaker 3: you heard what I've heard. You must understand that the

208
00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,760
Speaker 3: case does not support the conviction of these two boys.

209
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,520
Speaker 3: I'm not saying they're not guilty. I don't know, but

210
00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,760
Speaker 3: this case does not support the conviction.

211
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,319
Speaker 4: I'm curious. Have there been other cases in Thailand where

212
00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,880
Speaker 4: Burmese workers were sort of scapegoaded and blamed for something,

213
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:46,360
Speaker 4: whether it's murder, rape, theft, whatever. Is that something that

214
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,200
Speaker 4: has happened in Thailand before?

215
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:50,320
Speaker 7: Yes, it happens all the time.

216
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,840
Speaker 1: Phil Robertson is the director of Human Rights Watch Asia.

217
00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,199
Speaker 8: There's always a scapegoat of migrant workers. There's been cases

218
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,560
Speaker 8: where migrant workers were blamed for rapes of Thai women

219
00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,280
Speaker 8: when it turned out that, in fact, you know, the

220
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,880
Speaker 8: son of a politician was doing it, a Thai politician.

221
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,840
Speaker 8: You know, all these things are happening, they're really rapidly

222
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,920
Speaker 8: hushed up. The migrant workers themselves. If they're hauled into court,

223
00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,680
Speaker 8: oftentimes they don't have access to proceedings in their own language.

224
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,959
Speaker 7: So if they don't speak Thai or don't understand enough Thai,

225
00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,960
Speaker 7: they really don't know what's going on. Oftentimes they don't

226
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,319
Speaker 7: have access to legal services, they don't know what their

227
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:31,880
Speaker 7: rights are.

228
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:33,960
Speaker 8: So you know, it is not much justice for migrant

229
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,320
Speaker 8: workers in Thailand. That's the reality of it.

230
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,080
Speaker 1: Waypo and Zelin then appealed the verdict.

231
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,880
Speaker 5: What happened was that there was an appeal and the

232
00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,720
Speaker 5: appeal went before the same judges who settle on the

233
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,240
Speaker 5: original trial, so of course they came up with the

234
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,720
Speaker 5: same result. And then it was appealed further to the

235
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,040
Speaker 5: Supreme Court of Thai. Lang whig is they took court.

236
00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,880
Speaker 1: The Supreme Court of Thailand upheld the verdict of the

237
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:05,280
Speaker 1: lower courts. Author and journalist sub Buchanan lived on Thailand

238
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,000
Speaker 1: for years and wrote the book The Curse of the Turtle,

239
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,320
Speaker 1: The true story of Thailand's backpacker murders.

240
00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:13,840
Speaker 9: You were allowed to appeals.

241
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,280
Speaker 10: They had their first appeal to Regionate, which is basically

242
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,040
Speaker 10: the same crew that gave them the death penalty in

243
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,320
Speaker 10: the first place. We held out some hope for the

244
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,480
Speaker 10: Supreme Court appeal in Bangkok because they have been known

245
00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,280
Speaker 10: to exonerate people who lost their first appeal, but they

246
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,760
Speaker 10: lost that one, then their last option was to appeal

247
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,120
Speaker 10: to the king for a pardon, which they did and

248
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:35,040
Speaker 10: he never got back to them again.

249
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,320
Speaker 1: Sarah Yun, there are.

250
00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,800
Speaker 3: A few cases in your journalistic life that really really

251
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,800
Speaker 3: get to you and continue to affect you and upset

252
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,240
Speaker 3: you for years to come. Obviously disasters and bombings and

253
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,800
Speaker 3: things they do that that this case really really really

254
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,520
Speaker 3: upset me and made me feel guilty because my son

255
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,160
Speaker 3: was the same age as Wi Piones all In and

256
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,560
Speaker 3: what was said in court was so clear of a

257
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,480
Speaker 3: failed investigation or a deliberately failed investigation. And these two

258
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,880
Speaker 3: boys are still sitting in prison. And I worry about

259
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,040
Speaker 3: two things. One thing I worry is that the international

260
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,600
Speaker 3: press jumped on it so quickly that we made them

261
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,240
Speaker 3: too hot to handle. So we made it impossible for

262
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,080
Speaker 3: them to treat these two boys as escapegoat, which I

263
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,600
Speaker 3: believe they were, and then just like let them go

264
00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,040
Speaker 3: off back to Burma and keep quiet and don't say anything.

265
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,680
Speaker 3: And I fear that we made it too well known

266
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:33,480
Speaker 3: for them to do that, and I know that they

267
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:35,560
Speaker 3: have done that in the past by letting prisoners go

268
00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,440
Speaker 3: back to Burma and two. I know that if my

269
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,800
Speaker 3: son had been in that situation and had been put

270
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,880
Speaker 3: in that prison, I'd raised the prison to the ground

271
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:46,960
Speaker 3: personally to get them out. And I don't feel like

272
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,600
Speaker 3: I've done enough for those two young men. You know,

273
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:53,320
Speaker 3: their lives are ruined, and if they are innocent, then

274
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,360
Speaker 3: I feel an enormous personal guilt, more for them than

275
00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,560
Speaker 3: any other trial I've ever covered or any other place

276
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,920
Speaker 3: I've ever been. I think that it would be so

277
00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,800
Speaker 3: so good if there was a possibility of finding out

278
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:10,400
Speaker 3: who is behind these events on Kotau, and if whatever

279
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,440
Speaker 3: was found out could possibly free these two men if

280
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:18,200
Speaker 3: they're innocent. But I believe that the deception goes higher

281
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,280
Speaker 3: than just the police force. I believe it goes much

282
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,680
Speaker 3: much higher because escape that was required and these two

283
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,480
Speaker 3: were chosen. But every day, every day I think about them,

284
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,000
Speaker 3: and every day I think I should have done more.

285
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,440
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, the Royal tai King commuted Wapo and

286
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,080
Speaker 1: Zaln's death sentences to life in prison.

287
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,880
Speaker 2: Zelen and Wapo are in prison. Their sentence has been

288
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,280
Speaker 2: commuted from death to life.

289
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,600
Speaker 4: Is there any appeals left? Are they done? Are they

290
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,240
Speaker 4: just sort of their left for the.

291
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,200
Speaker 9: Rest of their lives. They're done. There's no legal avenue now.

292
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,360
Speaker 10: The only option is to prove someone else did it,

293
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,320
Speaker 10: and even then I don't know how you'd reopen the case.

294
00:16:58,360 --> 00:16:59,200
Speaker 9: It's finished. It's done.

295
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,320
Speaker 10: They're in prison for the their lives unless the King

296
00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:02,840
Speaker 10: gives them more amnesties.

297
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,520
Speaker 2: How are they doing right now? I know you occasionally

298
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,479
Speaker 2: change letter or exchange letters with them. What is their

299
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:09,520
Speaker 2: situation right now?

300
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,399
Speaker 10: I'm in touch with zill In regularly, and every second

301
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,960
Speaker 10: Sunday I write a very long letter to him, and

302
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,520
Speaker 10: he writes to me every month. They're having a terrible time.

303
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,520
Speaker 10: I mean, they've had COVID restrictions, so they haven't been

304
00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:23,600
Speaker 10: able to get out of their cells. Keep going on

305
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 10: to lockdown, so they're all stuck in their own buildings.

306
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,000
Speaker 10: They're not getting visitors because of the couple of years

307
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,560
Speaker 10: of COVID restrictions where prisoners of not being able to

308
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,960
Speaker 10: see their families. They just can't cope with it. So

309
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,080
Speaker 10: they're all feeling very isolated, very cut off. I mean,

310
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 10: the last time I suppose is all In, he'd not

311
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:40,960
Speaker 10: heard from his family in over seven months. Doesn't even

312
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,080
Speaker 10: know if they're still alive. So you know, they're just

313
00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,280
Speaker 10: having a really really nasty, horrible, soul destroying time. And

314
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,000
Speaker 10: I really do think the only thing that keeps them

315
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,760
Speaker 10: going is the fact that they know there's people out

316
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,640
Speaker 10: here who are still trying to help them, and they

317
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:53,560
Speaker 10: haven't been forgotten.

318
00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:56,960
Speaker 1: But SUPI canon has a plan.

319
00:17:57,760 --> 00:17:59,760
Speaker 10: I don't know whether we can get a judicial review

320
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,000
Speaker 10: and whether we can sue the police to the courts.

321
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,040
Speaker 10: We have to look at all these legal mechanisms. But

322
00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,280
Speaker 10: first of all, I need some evidence with which to

323
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,919
Speaker 10: create options. I found out that I could get the

324
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,159
Speaker 10: prosecution files, and then they said there was like so

325
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,560
Speaker 10: many of them and the court would have to copy

326
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,280
Speaker 10: them and give them over, and they're charging a few

327
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,000
Speaker 10: barter copy. And I've just like thousands of thousands of

328
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,640
Speaker 10: these things. You know, I don't have thousands and thousands

329
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:24,760
Speaker 10: of pounds to get all of them. So I just

330
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,439
Speaker 10: said to my lawyer, get what you can. Just you know,

331
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,280
Speaker 10: the most important thing is I want all the DNA stuff,

332
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,720
Speaker 10: and I want all the witness stuff, because that's the

333
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,040
Speaker 10: most important. If my lawyer went down there, and first

334
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:36,840
Speaker 10: of all, he had to go to the prison and

335
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 10: he had to get power of attorney from zorl In

336
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,679
Speaker 10: and weigh people. Well, I didn't tell them why I

337
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,800
Speaker 10: was sending a lawyer to get power of attorney because

338
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,640
Speaker 10: obviously the prison officers read the letters. So I didn't

339
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:48,840
Speaker 10: want the prison officers tipped off to the fact I

340
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,320
Speaker 10: was going to start trying to get prosecution files. So

341
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,399
Speaker 10: I just said to zorll In, you've just got to

342
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,120
Speaker 10: trust me. If my lawyer turns up, you just got

343
00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,600
Speaker 10: to sign whatever he brings in, like, please, don't ask

344
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:00,800
Speaker 10: questions and just trust me. Well, it took him like

345
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,520
Speaker 10: three months to get there, and then Saulin wrote a

346
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,080
Speaker 10: letter saying, oh, your lawyer's been in.

347
00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:06,080
Speaker 9: I've signed this letter.

348
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 10: And then my lawyer told me, oh, yeah, I've got

349
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:08,920
Speaker 10: the power of attorney.

350
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,920
Speaker 9: I'm going down to COASTMOI put in the request and.

351
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,199
Speaker 10: Then weeks and weeks and weeks were passed, and I'm like,

352
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,800
Speaker 10: are these guys just ripping me off? Or is the

353
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:18,879
Speaker 10: court just trying to find a way not to provide

354
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:20,000
Speaker 10: me with these documents?

355
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 9: Like why is it taking so long?

356
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:38,320
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break again. We must note

357
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,399
Speaker 1: that Zolyn and Wepo have been found guilty in a

358
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,960
Speaker 1: court of law of the murders of Hannah Withridge and

359
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,680
Speaker 1: David Miller. In an effort to find out more information

360
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 1: about processing DNA samples, Connor reached out to forensic expert

361
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:53,479
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan.

362
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,560
Speaker 2: The thinking, according to Sue and a couple other people

363
00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,840
Speaker 2: we've talked to, is that because the influencer to it

364
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 2: family had when they were taking DNA samples, because they

365
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,159
Speaker 2: did take DNA from the Tivichian guy as well, but

366
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 2: they probably just switched his DNA with one of the

367
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 2: two migrant workers in this case is out in so

368
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,080
Speaker 2: that the sample that's taken from Hannah's body does actually

369
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 2: match the sample taken from somebody who was likely the murderer.

370
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 2: But because of the haphazard nature of collecting the DNA,

371
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,960
Speaker 2: that just the labeling process probably literally got switched. And

372
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 2: this is why I say. Sue has evidence, according to her,

373
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:34,120
Speaker 2: that the DNA samples were stored in the refrigerator in

374
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 2: the bar before they were taken to the mainland to

375
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 2: be processed, so they were also processed within twenty four

376
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 2: hours in supposedly in Singapore. How quickly can DNA be

377
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 2: processed generally.

378
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,280
Speaker 11: Here it's a slow roll because if you're looking, if

379
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,879
Speaker 11: you're going to a National police lab here or a

380
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,800
Speaker 11: state police lab, it's take a number and get in line.

381
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 11: If you've got political influence, you can bump it up

382
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:57,639
Speaker 11: the line, you know, you can move it to the

383
00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 11: headline and get it done really quickly.

384
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 4: If there's no line, how quickly does it take?

385
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 11: They could probably have it turned around in about a

386
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 11: week and a half, I would imagine.

387
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,240
Speaker 2: So just the test itself is not something that gets

388
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 2: turned around in a day.

389
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,160
Speaker 11: Not most of tom No, I.

390
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:13,959
Speaker 2: Mean, I think that's one of the holes in the

391
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,440
Speaker 2: court's case is that the police within a day, maybe

392
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 2: it was two days, forty eight hours, not only collected

393
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,679
Speaker 2: the sample, sent it to Singapore to be processed, and

394
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,199
Speaker 2: that that's what was used to point the finger at

395
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,040
Speaker 2: the Burmese kids. Which doesn't sound like that's something that

396
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,680
Speaker 2: is actually possible under ideal circumstances.

397
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:31,959
Speaker 11: No, it wouldn't be, not that quickly.

398
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 1: Ian Yarwood points out that he believes there were multiple

399
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,119
Speaker 1: issues with how the TAIE authorities collected and stored the

400
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 1: DNA evidence in this case.

401
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 5: It was really painfully obvious to me in July twenty fifteen,

402
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:51,920
Speaker 5: when people such as saw the Chief of Police made

403
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 5: statements to the effect that, I, yes, well, we don't

404
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 5: have any of the original mixed seemen sample that we

405
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,639
Speaker 5: know that the killers. In fact, what they had was

406
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,640
Speaker 5: like a photocopy. They call it amplified DNA. So it's

407
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,360
Speaker 5: just the result of another test. But you know, when

408
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 5: it comes to say the laws of evidence, you have

409
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 5: to rely on what's called the best evidence rule. And

410
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 5: so if you are saying this mixed semen sample came

411
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 5: from these two individuals, you cannot have a photocopy of

412
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,120
Speaker 5: the sample. You have to have an original sample which

413
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 5: is available for anyone else to retest. It's not just

414
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 5: a question of take our word for it. So, I mean,

415
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 5: I knew in July of twenty fifteen that the chief

416
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:39,880
Speaker 5: of police was completely full of shit.

417
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,360
Speaker 4: Why was he full of shit because he.

418
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,439
Speaker 5: Did not have any of the original mixed semen sample.

419
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 5: I've got a tea spoon here that will hold five

420
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 5: millimeters of fluid and in order to conduct one of

421
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 5: these tests on a mixed semen sample. According to Jane Torpen,

422
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 5: who is that forensic scientist, she said that you only

423
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 5: need five micro leaders. You know, micro is one thousand

424
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 5: the size of a milli liter, so you could do

425
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 5: one thousand tests with something that size. But the Chief

426
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 5: of Police was saying, well, it was all used up,

427
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 5: And then later on they were saying, I know the

428
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 5: journalists misunderstood, were still up the evidence. But what they

429
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 5: had was amplified evidence, which is like a photocopy, you know,

430
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 5: and you can't rely on a photocopy. It's like if

431
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 5: I could photocopy your passport, Connor, but you know, with

432
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 5: a little bit of work, you know, I could change

433
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,439
Speaker 5: your date of birth and change your name and a

434
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 5: few other things, and so the photocopy is unreliable. You

435
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 5: need the original evidence. That the tie courts should not

436
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 5: have accepted it, but they did.

437
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: Connor reached back out to Sue Buchanan about the request

438
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 1: she put in for the prosecution's files in the case

439
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 1: against WAPO and Zoe Len.

440
00:23:59,200 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 4: Power of Things.

441
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 9: Yeah, pretty mad.

442
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 10: Really, it's all going a bit bonkers with the investigation.

443
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 10: I don't think they ever banked on the fact that

444
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 10: I would get hold of the prosecution of files. I mean,

445
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 10: I don't think they ever thought that far ahead. I

446
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 10: don't think they even knew there was a legal mechanism

447
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 10: where I could get hold of the prosecution files.

448
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 9: I mean they're not they.

449
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 10: Don't forward think anyway, but I mean, you know, I

450
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 10: had no idea that almost, you know, nine years later,

451
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 10: i'd get hold of those files.

452
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's pretty incredible and just sort

453
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 2: of recap a little bit. What all you were sent,

454
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 2: what all you've got.

455
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:31,360
Speaker 9: We've got everything.

456
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 10: So my lawyer went down to the movie court and

457
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 10: put in a request for the documents, and I was

458
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 10: expecting like maybe a few hundred pages, and then two

459
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 10: massive boxes were shipped up to Bangkok and there's like

460
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 10: twenty seven thousand pages in there.

461
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 11: Wow.

462
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 10: The judge said, this conviction is purely on this matching DNA,

463
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 10: so that's their a killing skeel.

464
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 9: So I'm like, send me all the DNA stuff. So

465
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 9: that's what they did.

466
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 10: I'm like, holy yeah, I have no idea we were

467
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 10: getting the whole you know, kick kaboodle.

468
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 1: The documents sent to sou Buchanan contained the prosecut Cuter's files,

469
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: the autopsies of David Miller and Hannah Withridge, and the

470
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: DNA analysis dune Bataie authorities. Everything was of course written

471
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: in ENTI, so Sue got them translated into English. She

472
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: also contacted a forensic lab in the UK to go

473
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 1: over the DNA test results. Sue has her own hypothesis

474
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: of who else might have been involved in Hannah and

475
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: David's murders, as its only speculation. We've beat their name below.

476
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 10: So the report came back and it's not a piece

477
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 10: of shit at all, Like the whole thing's like perfect.

478
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 9: So they've done a really diligent job on the DNA.

479
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 10: I've been through all of it, and he sent me

480
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 10: a nineteen page explanation and the DNA that was found

481
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 10: in Hannah's regina was definitely matched the sample from wapure,

482
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 10: So they found DNA on that, so they took that

483
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 10: away and the DNA profile was left matched z all

484
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 10: in right, So there's just no getting around it. They've

485
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 10: done it all properly. And I'm thinking we'll hang on

486
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 10: a minute, Like I've always wondered how they could have

487
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 10: paid off the courts, paid off the judges, paid off

488
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 10: the laboratory, and.

489
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 9: I'm thinking that's not what happened.

490
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 3: Right.

491
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 10: All they've done is they've taken swaps from tons of

492
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 10: Burmese people on Kotau, including Waypure and zorl In, and

493
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 10: all they had to do was switch that and put

494
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 10: zoll In in Waypure's label on it, and hey, presto, you've

495
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,239
Speaker 10: got this perfect match. So I mean that then all

496
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 10: you've got to do is pay off one copper, right, Well,

497
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 10: hold on.

498
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 2: I want to walk through this because I want to

499
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 2: better understand this as well. And I just as you're

500
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 2: trying to explain this, the sample. The only thing that

501
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: matches are the samples correct WAPOS samples, ZELLN sample with

502
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: what is in theory found on Hannah. Because the entire

503
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: process was contaminated. We don't actually know if the DNA

504
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 2: that was taken from Hannah was actually taken from Hannah correct.

505
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 10: From what we've got, it looks like it was because

506
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 10: they've matched her DNA. But when I first saw the report,

507
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 10: I was literally having palputations, going, oh my god, they're guilty,

508
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 10: They're guilty, and I was just like wow, you know,

509
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 10: I'm so shocked that it was a good a good

510
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 10: job by the laboratory. And then I suddenly thought, hang

511
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 10: on him, and it's so much easier to pay one

512
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 10: cup on Kotau just that little bit of money. Literally

513
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 10: all they had to do is was find two labels.

514
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 10: Just just put two labels with the wrong That's literally

515
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 10: all they had to do to pull this off was

516
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 10: two sticky labels.

517
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 9: It's so simple, it's frightening.

518
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 4: Right, and who knows at what point that was done.

519
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 10: So the only thing I can do now is get

520
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 10: Zorlin's DNA out of that prison. And if it matches

521
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 10: the sample they've used, he's banged to rights. And I've

522
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 10: been barking up the wrong tree for nine years and

523
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 10: I'll go over there and kill him myself.

524
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 9: Or it means that it's not his.

525
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 10: And not only is it not his, and the Ties

526
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 10: have fitted him up, they've been in collusion with the

527
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 10: person who actually bloody killed her. Because we've got the

528
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 10: DNA profiles of the two people who were involved.

529
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 4: I totally agree.

530
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 2: Like to me, the obvious way that you would stitch

531
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 2: this up would be to essentially take the DNA samples

532
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 2: and just write the person's name who you want to frame,

533
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 2: and this is their DNA.

534
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 10: Right, because you cannot deny the matches they've got are

535
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 10: in this beautiful.

536
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 9: I mean, you know, far from doing a shoddy job.

537
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 10: Like Jane Tawpins said, they've done, you know, miraculously, they've

538
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 10: done an amazing job, like it's it's really is international standards.

539
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 10: But what they can't account for is the chain of custody. Yeah,

540
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 10: those samples match, They definitely matched two individuals, but it

541
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 10: is all in a way pure, and.

542
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: Everything we know about the island says that the chain

543
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: of custody from what people witnessed who were there, you know,

544
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 2: with the DNA being essentially, you know, recklessly being pulled

545
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 2: and put into beer boxes and things like that other DNA,

546
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 2: but also what we know about the corruption on the

547
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 2: island suggests that the only way you stitch this up

548
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: and you fix this is that you just essentially, in

549
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: the back of a police room as you're taking DNA swabs,

550
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: you you just changed the names. And there's no accounting

551
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: for that throughout the legal system exactly.

552
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 10: But whoever's done this, whoever's done this, I mean their

553
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 10: DNA was in Hannah, so who if they have swapped labels,

554
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 10: the people who've organized that are the two people who

555
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 10: were there. So whoever's DNA sample we've got the two DNA,

556
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 10: soarm whoever they belong to We now have the code

557
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 10: of the Killer. It either belongs to them or it doesn't.

558
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 10: So if it matches, they've conned me for nine years

559
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 10: and they really are the killers. If it doesn't match it,

560
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 10: then Thailand's screwed because not only have they fitted those

561
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 10: boys up, they've taken the DNA from matchual killers and

562
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 10: labeled it as somebody else. There's no gray areas in

563
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 10: this anymore, Connor. It either is the boys or it

564
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 10: isn't the boys, and that's that's it.

565
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, more on that this season. If you have any

566
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: information about Hannah Withtherridge and David Miller, please contact us

567
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: at producers at katdash studios dot com. For more information

568
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat Underscores Studios.

569
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: Death Island is produced by Stephanie Leideger, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnell,

570
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: Jeff Shane, Chris Cacaro, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong.

571
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tois Music, ivankor Music.

572
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: Death Island is a production of iHeartRadio and kt Studios.

573
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple

574
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,