WEBVTT - Breaking the Fourth Wall with Isaac Butler 0:00:02.320 --> 0:00:05.640 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:11.400 Thing from iHeart Radio. My guest today is an author, critic, 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:16.320 and theater director. His most recent book, The Method, How 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:19.680 the Twentieth Century Learned to Act, has been named one 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:22.240 of the best books of twenty twenty two by The 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:26.960 New Yorker, Time Magazine, the San Francisco Chronicle, and Vanity Fair. 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:33.120 Isaac Butler has studied acting since childhood, performing in Washington, 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:36.880 d C's theater scene. He is now an adjunct instructor 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:41.920 of Theater History and Performance at NYU Tish. Butler is 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:46.080 also the author of the World Only Spins Forward, The 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:50.879 Ascent of Angels in America. His writing on theater and 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:55.680 film has appeared in numerous publications such as New York Magazine, 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:59.520 The Guardian, Slate, and The Los Angeles Review of Books. 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:03.280 I was curious to know Butler's opinion of the three 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:07.399 great actors he mentions in his book, Lee Strasburg, Sandy Meisner, 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.760 Stella Adler, and how he came to write The Method. 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:14.360 What I wanted to do with the book was, since 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:17.280 I had never met Lee or Stella or Sandy or 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:19.520 any of those people. They were all, you know, dead 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:22.960 before I went to college, was to really try to 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.600 take as seriously as possible the opinions of those who 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:28.679 knew them right, because I wasn't there. And much as 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:30.720 like when you're an actor trying to create a role, 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:33.720 you know, you want to understand that role as deeply 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:35.920 as possible, even if you don't agree with one hundred 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.200 percent of that character psychology or the choices they make 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:41.280 in a play. I think most characters who are interesting 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:43.479 are ones who we wouldn't necessarily make all the same 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:45.319 choices they do, because plot comes from. 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:47.160 When you're playing. You got to give it everything you have, 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:48.080 exactly right. 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:52.200 And so I wound up having, you know, very complicated 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:54.200 and mostly positive feelings about all of them, Do you 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:56.640 know what I mean? I mean Lee, who I didn't know, 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.480 but by all reports was an incredibly difficult person to 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:02.920 get along with, way did not ever say hello or goodbye, 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:05.600 did not make a lot of eye contact, yelled at 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:09.160 people when he very at the drop of a hat, unnecessary, 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:13.720 very imperious, Yeah, very imperious. And you know, at the 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:16.799 same time, so many actors would say, even people who 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:19.560 hated him personally, he changed my life and maybe the 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:21.680 actor I am today, and so you have to respect 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.400 both of those things. It is certainly not the case 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:30.880 that Lee's method is good for every actor. And I 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.600 think the big problem that Lee and to some extent 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.600 Stella and some of the other people ran into is 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:38.720 getting a little high on their own supply about that 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:42.440 that there was one true way to get to the truth. 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:44.600 There's all sorts of different ways to get to the truth. 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:46.480 And Lee would give lip service to that. Sometimes he'd 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:48.120 be like, you know, Laurence Olivier gets to the truth 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:50.520 by finding the right shirt or whatever. He didn't really 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:52.919 accept that if his students did it, you know. And 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.760 so I think that what actually is most important is 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:00.720 that the student find the right teacher for them. And 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:04.080 what's been interesting since the death of that generation, or 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:06.959 actually started when late in life, how many people would 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:09.920 take classes from both Stella and Sandy or you know, 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:11.880 would go to see Lee and then go to udhah 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:13.720 Hagen or whatever and try to kind of get the 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.200 things they were missing from each and create their own 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:19.919 way of doing it. Because ultimately, after years and years 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.240 and years in a career, you found your own technique. 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:24.120 It might be based on their technique. But there's stuff 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:26.240 that's useful to you, there's stuff that isn't, and you 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:27.120 find your own way. 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:31.320 I think for me, Strasburg was somebody who the number 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:33.280 one thing, which they made the number one thing, and 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:36.280 maybe they didn't emphasize it enough, maybe not enough of 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:40.760 them completely grasp the necessity of relaxation. Right. You got 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:43.800 to turn off all the pipes and vowels of your day. 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:46.040 You got to go to work, you can't talk to people, 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:48.000 you can't be on the phone with your girlfriend breaking 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:49.880 up with her. You got to cut all that off 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:52.400 and just be here now and sit in a chair. 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:54.320 And if you want to read a book, don't go 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.440 to your trailer. Go to your trailer when the scene 0:03:57.480 --> 0:03:59.200 is over and it's a break. But we're during the 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:01.400 shots of that scene said on the set, stay connected 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:05.320 to this, all these things of connection, relaxation, concentration, and 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.040 then you have a shot at the other things happening. 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:09.760 You have no shot if the other things don't happen. 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:13.640 Yeah, I mean, Stanislavsky was very serious about relaxation, you know, 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:16.440 and Strasburg is adapting a lot of those ways that 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:20.440 Stanislavsky developed. You know, he started doing yoga. He was 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.400 very interested in breathing exercises, a lot of stuff that 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:27.599 we associate today with like mindfulness. You know, Stanislavsky was 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:29.800 doing to try to figure out how to totally relax 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.720 as an actor, because he was totally all about that 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:34.800 that it was only once you were relaxed that you 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.000 could actually do the work, because otherwise it's all getting 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:39.760 contained in your body and it's not going anywhere. 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:43.479 You know, when you talk about a method acting performance, 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:47.360 you're talking about Brando obviously, and Clift and I studied 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.000 with Mirror Rostova, Oh amazing Cliff's teacher. You know, she 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:52.880 was in her nineties. She taught in the living room 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.440 of a friend's apartment and she would teacheck and she 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:57.400 changed my life because she talked to me about how 0:04:57.720 --> 0:04:59.680 actors very often are playing the scene at the expense 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:02.640 of the the act right listening, oh Jack Lemon thing 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:05.040 where you have to be really really be very acute 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:07.680 and you're listening and responding and so forth. And she 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.040 really changed my life because I was doing a soap opera, 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.359 and soap opera acting is defined by an actor walking 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:14.960 and going. You know, you're not going to take over 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:17.600 those shares of Paul my industry's day. Let me tell 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:19.960 you that right now, right, and the next time, the 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.160 next scene, it's like, I love you, Mary, goddamn it, 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:24.320 I love you. You know, they play the same cadence 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.840 and the same emotional register, regardless of the same right. 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:30.160 Was she a yeller to Mirah? 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:32.520 That's interesting because a lot of the Russians, I mean, 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.080 where Strasburg and Stella yelled a lot too, right, And 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:37.599 where they got it from was was this student of 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:41.080 Stanislavsky's name Maria Ospinskaya of course, who's also very famous 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:41.960 you know film actor. 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.839 Later, Yeah, the Wolf y. You know, I just showed 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:46.640 my kid The Wolf, Mam. 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:49.080 We're doing the Universal Horror and I was like, oh 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.560 my god, it's Maria Osbanskaya. And then, you know, my 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:54.320 kid looked at me and was like, who's that? Why 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:56.200 do you care? And I had to explained she was 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:58.320 Moscow Art Theater, Moscow Art Theater, yeah, and then the 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.680 first studio, and then you know, she was when the 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:04.080 Moscow Art Theater came to the United States in the twenties, 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:06.520 there was a group of them who had to stay behind. 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:08.760 They were fired from the company and exiled from the 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.679 Soviet or from Russia, you know, because the political wins 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:14.159 were changing, and she was one of them. And she 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.480 and another exile, this guy Richard Boloslavsky, who for any 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:19.559 actors who are listening, as the guy who wrote acting 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:22.240 the first six Lessons, the very first book in English 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:26.080 about Stanislavski technique, Love It. And he also directed Ospinskaya 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.520 later in a movie. But Richard Boloslavsky and Mario Ospinskaya 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.680 were the two fundamental teachers at the school. The American 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.240 Laboratory Theater where was that it had a number of 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.920 different locations. It moved all around because it was here 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:40.280 in New York, and it was this model that's actually 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.119 sort of the conservatory model now, but not exactly where. 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:46.120 You know, you studied very hard for like two years, 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.479 and then you joined the best of them joined the 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.440 rep company that was associated with the school, and so 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:54.920 they were sort of running all of those those different things. 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:59.280 And you know, Harold Klerman studied there, Lee Strasburg studied there. 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:01.359 Stella Adler's studied there. You know, a lot of the 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:05.599 key twentieth century theater makers study there. Ospinskaya was a 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:10.520 notorious dragon in scene study class. She among other things, 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:13.640 she was an alcoholic, and so she would have a 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:16.040 bottle of what she claimed was cough medicine. It was 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:20.120 jin and she would drink medicine. Yeah, but she would 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:21.720 drink you know, table switch to be like, oh my 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:25.120 cough is worse I need And then eventually she subbed 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:26.679 it out with a pitcher of water that was actually 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:28.640 gin and would just you know, like a little vermouth 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:32.200 with my yes exactly. And so I mean she would 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:36.240 just devastatingly destroy people if she thought they were being lazy. 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:38.360 I think, like any art, and acting is of course 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:39.760 an art as well as a craft at a job 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:41.920 and all sorts of other things. There's a kind of 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.000 osmosis of the world around you that you engage in. 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.360 You know, like when I am writing a book, there's 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:50.240 often like three albums of music I listened to while 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:51.800 writing it, and even if they're. 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:53.360 Not, can you share what they are? You've rather not. 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:56.520 A lot of the method was written to this piece 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:59.720 of music called Canto Ostinado, which is a piece of 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:02.120 mut music that it's a little difficult to explain. It's 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:03.760 sort of a minimalist piece of music. It's about forty 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:07.160 five minutes long, and there's a particular version on Spotify 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:10.040 that's all Cello's doing it, And so there was that. 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:10.920 I listen to that a lot. 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.320 I have a playlist whenever I'm on deadline, I have 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:19.000 a playlist of the most kind of loud, percussive guitar 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:22.280 solo heavy songs by the Bandiola Tango or my favorite band, 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:24.640 And so I listen to that and just words come. 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:28.520 Flying out, I thought you'd say, and not that I'm 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:30.800 predating Adagio for streets right right, right right. 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:33.199 And then there's a jazz composer who I've worked with 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:34.959 a couple of times named Darcy James Argue, who's a 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:36.680 very close friend whose work I love, and so I 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:37.800 usually have one of his albums. 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.600 This is the stuff that carries you over the threshold. 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:42.640 And part of it is just I've written to this 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.360 stuff so much. There's like a sense memory almost, you know, 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:47.559 like now it's time to write. 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:47.800 You know. 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:49.920 It's like it just does something to my subconscious and 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.200 then away we go. But you know, if I was 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.480 writing something sad, I might listen to sad. 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:55.800 You know. 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:57.719 I've definitely had those like, oh, this scene has this 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.480 certain emotional feeling. I'm going to listen to music that 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:01.640 has that emotional feeling. 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:03.880 Not words. Can never have words if you're writing for 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:06.360 me anyway. Yeah, for me in acting, I played the 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.480 audio clips only of movies that make me sad. Oh really, 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.079 so there's a scene that breaks my heart, I'll play 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:13.800 that scene in my ear. I knew. 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:16.240 I interviewed one actor who told me to prep for 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.240 a scene he would watch because it had a similar emotionality, 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:21.640 totally different scene. He wasn't trying to copy what DeNiro did, 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:24.400 but it was just this that that feeling of total devastation, 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:26.880 the scene where DeNiro's punching the wall of the jail 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.040 cells and raging bull and he would just watch that. 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.720 And I've not a vast but a limited library of 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:34.800 those scenes that I watched a trigger with certain emotion 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:36.720 in me. Yeah, that's like if you say, you know 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.280 the de Niro thing, it's like Brando, you know, we 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:41.720 see don't leave him lying here. I'm gonna take it 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:44.160 out on this skulls. Yeah, when they don't leave me 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:46.800 here like this CD when he finds Steiger's body who 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:49.200 betrayed him, right, But I mean that makes me cry 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.200 even out his brother betrayed him, but he's still it's 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:53.960 his brother, you know what I mean? He plays that 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:55.840 like he just an inescapable thing. 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.320 You know what line? And I'm not an actor anymore. 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:00.600 But the line that always, like, when I just even 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:02.560 think about it, I start to get worked up is 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:06.000 when Hamlet says I loved Ophelia forty thousand brothers. That 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:08.200 line about like forty thousand brothers cannot, with all their 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:10.240 love makeup my son or something like that. And there's 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.640 just something so first of all, it's a shitty thing 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:14.280 to say to a guy whose sister has just died, 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:18.199 but it's also so emotionally overpowering that if I think 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:19.880 about it long enough, it'll trigger something. 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:24.480 Same the littlest things. Yeah, when you realize how deeply 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:28.719 deeply individualized this is and subjective and personal, I'll never 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:34.080 forget when Jamie Sheridan, the great actor he played Fortinbrass 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.119 and the production that pap did of Hamlet? 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.079 Where is that the Diane ve noora one that thank you, 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:42.840 This is really a treat we're gonna be come back 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:43.600 with through two episodes. 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:46.439 No, seriously, because because Diane Venora plays the first female. 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:48.559 Hammi Joe puts it right. I wish, I wish I 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:51.680 saw it. She was magical. Yeah, she was absolutely wonderful. 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:53.280 She was the fact that she didn't go on from 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:55.640 bird and have a great she played his wife right 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:59.400 with Forrest Whitaker. Yeah, now she does this and and 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:01.360 when everybody's dead at the end, and she comes on 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:03.600 and Jamie Sherion plus Fort and Bruston comes in and 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.280 just the honor in his voice of a dead soldier, 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:08.240 soldier to so he comes from the Battley comes in. 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:12.439 He goes, oh, proud death, and he's kind of eulogizing 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.240 in his ordinary statement of this. And I started sobbing 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:17.240 when he said this, And whenever I think about it, 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:19.680 I could have pushed me over the edge because it 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.000 was so rich in that there was a context. I 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:22.400 got it. 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:24.559 Yeah, I mean one of the weird things. And people 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.000 said this happened at the actors studio. Maybe you witnessed 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:28.880 it as well, that there could be a certain fetishization 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.120 of crying, right, It's like you just the actors just 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:34.079 really wanted to cry. And I think that's really fascinating 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.080 because first of all, it is totally possible to be 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.440 filled with devastating sadness and not cry. There are all 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:41.520 sorts of people who don't cry that much. To cry 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:43.880 or try not to cry is always more interesting than 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:45.840 crying on camera or on stage, right, whether. 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:47.480 It's worth the take, it's the playing against right. 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:49.319 And then the other thing is that there are all 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:51.520 sorts of things that we respond to with tears that 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:55.120 aren't necessarily sad, because again, emotion is so individuated. And 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.239 I think part of what Strasburg, the thing that Strasburg 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.600 was getting at that I think is really key and 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:05.000 why it was so revolutionary, you know, that is the 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:09.880 idea that each person responds differently to everything. And so 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.360 if you want to be not cliched, you need to 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.439 harness what's individual about you and figure out a way 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:18.240 to put it into the character. Because the way that 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:20.800 you know, Alec Baldwin tries not to cry and then 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:22.679 cries is different from the way that I would. 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:25.400 What's one thing you thought about? I mean, because you 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:28.200 were acting and you talk about it well, First of all, 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:30.040 talk about that when you go back into your college 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:32.480 dormitory room and have a mini nervous breakdown after some 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:33.840 of the work you did. Oh my God. 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:37.000 That was the experience that it didn't put me off 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:38.800 acting in terms of my interest in acting, but it 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:40.840 made me realize I was not actually tough enough to 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:42.480 be an actor. And I think we think a lot 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.480 of times of actors as not particularly tough people. 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:46.000 But there's a. 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:50.040 Unique toughness that being an artist requires, and there's a 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:53.040 unique toughness that being an actor requires, which has to 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.280 do with being vulnerable and then not vulnerable. You know, 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:58.040 you have to open yourself up to the world and 0:12:58.040 --> 0:12:59.320 you have to be able to shut it out. You 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:00.679 have to be able to get up in front of 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.360 people an audition and you know, deal with that rejection 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:05.680 and humiliation over and over again. And you also have 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:08.720 to be able to do this thing where, particularly if 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.400 you're going in a kind of Methody Stanislavsky direction, you 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.679 know you are plumbing often in a play, if it's 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.120 a deep play, a serious play, into the shit, and 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:18.360 you have to be able to get out of it. 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:19.720 You have to be able to turn it off, you 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:20.920 have to be able to walk away with it. And 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:23.600 this is an example when I couldn't really do that. 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.760 I it was my freshman year of college. I had 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:31.360 had a couple years of kind of Stanislavsky ish education 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:34.040 at like an acting conservatory run by a local theater 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:37.200 in DC. And I had been a professional actor as 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:38.520 a kid, so, you know, I thought I was going 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:39.960 to do that would you do as a kid? 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:41.040 I was. 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:44.480 I did voiceover for an industrial or two. I was 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.320 in a couple musicals and a play and stuff like that. 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:49.560 I was in the musical Falsettos, playing Jason the twelve 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:50.920 year Old Boy, if you know that show. I was 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.400 in a musical about the AIDS Quilt that then performed 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:55.160 at like the Smithsonian. Do you remember when the AIDS 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.559 Quilt came to d C. Yeah, yeah, so we performed 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.120 as part of that. We were also at the University 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:03.880 of Maryland. And it was a life changing experience. Among 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.480 other things that it is what politicized me. I mean, 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:10.560 growing up in DC, you're always political, yeah yeah, but 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:12.560 but in this case it was, you know, working in 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:16.120 the theater and knowing gays and lesbians, knowing people with AIDS, 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:17.240 you know, who are my friends? 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.880 Yeah, yeah, me too. And started in the business of 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:24.840 the eighties, it was all just royaling then, yeah, exactly. 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.080 That was really life changing. I started going to protest, 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.560 so I started really caring, you know, about something. And 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:33.120 so anyway, when we get to college, I was at Vassar, 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:35.120 I was, you know, a month into school or whatever, 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.760 and I got cast as the lead in Eric Bagosian's 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:42.520 Talk Radio. And uh, for anyone listening to this who 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.840 doesn't know Talk Radio the play, the movie's actually kind 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:45.240 of wonderful. 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:48.600 It's very panematic. I forgot that you're in that's so funny. 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:50.600 Sign of age. 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:52.600 No, I just think of it as just as just 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:54.560 Eric bagoshin and you sort. 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.200 Of forget play the station manager to do or no, no, 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:59.720 you're the station manager right right. Obviously not memorable. But again, 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:01.480 it's been a while since I've seen because I have 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:03.960 a traumatic relationship to this material. So I haven't seen 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:04.760 the movie in a while. 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:06.960 And so for those of you who don't know the play, 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:08.920 if you're playing the Eric Bagosian part and Talk Radio, 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:11.400 you are on stage chain smoking for ninety minutes and 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:13.560 then you have a three page long nervous breakdown. That's 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:17.080 the arc of the character, right. And so it was 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:19.960 two student directors, bless their souls, didn't know what they 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.840 were doing, and so I just went. Really I used 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:26.080 everything I knew about how to go deep into the 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.120 self right, which was not enough to be able to 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.360 control what I was messing with. I was messing with 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:35.280 dark forces that you know, like a like an apprentice wizard, 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:36.680 do you know what I mean. It's like, you know, 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:40.280 Mickey causing all the yeah and the brooms are just 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.640 all my self hatred. And on top of that, I'm 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:45.840 literally chainsmoking during the play. And I was a half 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:48.040 a pack a day smoker at the time. I've quit 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.480 for over twenty years now, but I was smoking like 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:52.160 a pack and a half cigarettes on stage. So I 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:56.240 was making myself physically and mentally ill on stage at 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:59.160 the same time every night, and you know, like the 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:01.320 performance would end, and you know, there was this girl 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:02.680 I had a crush on, and I made sure she 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:04.640 came and saw the show, and the only thing she 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:07.400 said to me afterwards was I'm worried about you, right, 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.480 And I would just go home and I smelled terrible, 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:13.040 and I hated myself because the character hates himself, that's 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:15.840 the core of that character. And I would literally stare 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:20.000 at the painted white or probably beige center block wall 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.280 of my seven x ten dorm room, and I would 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.160 just fucking stare at that wall until I could feel 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:28.160 myself come back together, like I had obliterated myself and 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.040 I had to come back together. And one week of 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:31.680 that was enough for me. I was like, I can't 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.600 believe anyone does this all the time for a living. Now, 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:36.240 the truth of the matter is, you actually get a 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:37.880 lot of training, and you learn how to do that 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:39.400 without destroying yourself. 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.160 Or you don't. You develop a drinking probably, and it's 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.160 called acting. Yeah, exactly. 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:47.720 And so I was like, you know what, I can't 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:49.920 do this. And then I realized that I really liked 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:52.040 telling people what to do, and I knew a lot 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:53.880 about theater, and so I should try directing. And so 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:56.280 I called my parents to tell them this, Hey, I 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:58.240 don't think I'm an actor anymore. I think I'm a director. 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:02.440 And it was exactly like a coming out scene from 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:04.840 like an early nineties play, do you know what I mean? 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:06.080 They were like, well, do you think this is just 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:08.159 a phase? And I was like, no, I think this 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:09.760 is for keeps, you know. They're like, well, you know, 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:11.919 you might go back to it sometimes, like I don't know, 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:13.399 you know, It's exactly like that, and then I. 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:17.000 Didn't think they would disappoint somewhat of you giving up acting. Well, 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:19.399 they had been so supportive of act. You've done it 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:20.680 for a while. I've done it for a while, and it. 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:22.920 Really saved my life. I was in a really bad 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:24.560 place when I got cast in that play as a 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:26.040 twelve year old. I was I was bullied a lot 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:27.840 as a kid. It wasn't physical, but it was very 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:30.240 you know. That's where all those brooms came from. That 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:32.760 I Mickey style called up. I was bullied a lot 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:35.600 as a kid, and I just you know, and theater 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:37.679