WEBVTT - Apple, Google Lose Multibillion Dollar Court Fights With EU 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:08.119 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:12.920 This is Bloomberg business Week inside from the reporters and 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:16.640 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:20.840 global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:25.800 Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:30.000 Apple lost its court fight over a fourteen point four 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:34.000 billion dollar Irish tax bill. Google lost its challenge over 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:36.400 a two point six billion dollar fine for abusing its 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:39.640 market power. It's a double boost to the EU's crackdown 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:43.000 on big tech. The use Court of Justice in Luxembourg 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:46.000 back day landmark twenty sixteen decision that Ireland broke state 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:48.520 aid law by giving Apple an unfair advantage. The same 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:51.800 court ruling that Google illegally leveraged the search engine dominance 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:54.800 to give a higher ranking to its own product listings. 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:58.560 Ed Loldos, Co, host of Bloomberg Technology on Bloomberg TV. 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:01.760 He's got an EU law degree, so he's the perfect 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.840 guy lawyer. He's the perfect guy to talk to about this. 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:08.240 He joins us from our San Francisco bureau. Okay, ed 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:12.400 fourteen point four billion dollars, it's more money than two 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:15.120 point six billion dollars. But if we read between the 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:18.479 lines here, which of these is a bigger impact for 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:19.760 the respective company? 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:22.480 You know, joining you guys to talk about how shiny 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:23.880 the new iPhone is is a lot. 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:24.440 Easier than this. 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:26.080 But let's get we'll get there, don't right. 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:27.000 Look. 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:31.959 In twenty sixteen, a European court ruled that basically Ireland 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:34.840 as a country but a member state of the European Union, 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:42.119 has given Apple preferential tax incentives that were illegal under 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:46.520 EU law, and Margaret to Vesta, the competition chief, in 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:50.400 sort of landing this decision today, has come out on 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:52.640 the right side of an argument she's made for a 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:54.560 long time, which is that any member state of the 0:01:54.600 --> 0:02:00.000 EU cannot have an ad hoc beneficial preferential tax arrangement. 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:00.400 Where the country. 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:02.080 What we're talking about is like where a country says 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:05.040 to a tech company, come build with us, invest here, 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.360 build offices, bring people, and in return you get these things. 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:10.600 But the things you get a difference to what everyone 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:14.200 else gets, and so the money is eyewatering. But just 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:17.720 really simply it's been sat in an escro account gathering 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:21.960 interests since that initial twenty sixteen decision. All that happened 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.760 was Apple had a right of appeal under EU law, 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.519 which ultimately today they have lost. 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:32.960 Wow. So I mean this is interesting. Of course, this 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:33.600 tax case. 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:37.040 There's also a lot of US anti trust news that's 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:39.559 going on, especially when it comes to Alphabet, the Google. 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:40.440 Ad Empire, etc. 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:43.680 But with all of these things, I always wonder how 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:45.720 much does it actually matter for the company? I know 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:47.280 the tim you were getting out that a little bit, 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:49.720 But we talk about these fines for these companies that 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:54.320 have more money than a lot of countries proper, and 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:57.400 then these antitrust trials which just take years and years 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.639 to play out. I mean, do investors really care about this? 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:05.160 I've always found it difficult to track the performance of 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.600 the stock of a megacap tech company against the headline 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:13.000 about market competition or anti trust. You know, it's always 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:16.079 been difficult to tell how sanguine or concerned investors are 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.080 that a real anti trust action will result in a 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:23.000 material impact to that business. Just today, Da Davidson, I 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.880 think put out or initiated coverage actually on Alphabet, the 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:29.760 parent of Google, with a neutral recommendation, and a big 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:33.640 part of that was we feel that anti trust is 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:37.480 a headwind to the core search business, so you've always 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:38.840 got to take it into account. And I think you 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.839 guys have had great conversations with Jenry of Bloomberg Intelligence 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:46.240 that in each jurisdiction, what we're increasingly seeing is not 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:49.200 just the action of a fine. So in this case 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:51.120 in Google today, they had to pay a fine, which 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:53.400 to them is small amount of money in the grand 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:55.800 scheme of things, But it's whether or not a regulator 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.320 requires them to make a fundamental change to their business 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.080 practice and therefore whether it will change the fate of 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:03.120 whatever that business is. 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:05.120 That's why it seems to me ed if we read 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.920 between the lines, the case about Google, which has a 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.080 smaller fine than you know, how much Apple has to pay, 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:14.600 is a bigger deal because yeah, okay, it means Apple's 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.640 got to pay more taxes. But for Google this could 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:21.000 be like a fundamental threat to the way it does 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:22.800 business at least with this product. Right. 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:27.240 Well, I'd make one distinction, which is that mechanically Apple 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:32.400 is paying back taxes or it's paying taxes that it 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:35.280 didn't pay in the first place, whereas this is an 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:37.960 actual fine. And one interesting distinction I guess under EU 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:40.880 law is that when an action is brought by the 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:44.359 Commission and a fine is issued and then paid. Often 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.240 it goes into a pot of money that's then redistributed 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:51.640 across the European Union member states based on complex formulas. 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:55.520 So you know, they're both slaps on the wrist. But 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:58.240 you know, again, the biggest question that the street and 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:02.520 markets are going to have for Google is EU a 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:05.279 regulator on behalf of four hundred and forty million people, 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:08.279 So an important market for Google going to require them 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.200 to change the practices that they currently use. And I 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:13.840 don't know that we quite have the answer on many 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.400 facets of Google's business, which you guys will know will 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.640 also now include AI. Because regulators are looking closely at 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:22.560 the investments made by a number of tech companies in 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:23.640 other AI companies. 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:25.599 I would imagine that they are, well, let's tie this 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:28.440 back to Apple, and let's tie this back to Yaeshuro, 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:30.599 so we can pivot to talking about how shiny the 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:33.360 iPhones are. Because of course Apple knew that this was 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:35.680 a company happening. They also knew that there was a 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:39.839 presidential debate happening tonight, and that's probably the reason why, 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:42.920 of course we had the event. The big iPhone splash 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:44.440 happened yesterday, ed. 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:49.920 It's likely. I mean Bloomberg's reporting was originally that Glow 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:53.000 time the Apple event would be today the tenth, And 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:55.359 when I got the invite from Apple to my inbox, 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:58.159 it was the ninth. And you know, I think sources 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:00.760 had told us that that was the consideration that you 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.840 have the presidential debate. And now we know that the 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:08.440 EU Tribunal was issuing this decision today and that's now 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:12.640 been gone. I just add finally, it's kind of unusual 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:15.360 unusual for Apple to do an event on a Monday, 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:18.760 but they did. And you know, I don't know what 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:21.760 you guys would say. You Katie has got what a 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:24.760 six or seven generations old phone? You know, she is 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.920 the case study here of what happens next. Does Katie 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:32.159 Greifeld now go up and upgrade her iPhone? That question 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:33.200 is being asked world over. 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:35.760 It seems like Katie's note interested in the AI stuff. 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:37.880 You just want to know what's best for posting to Twitter? 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:38.920 Yeah, pretty much. 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:41.440 I want to be able to tweet. If I could 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:44.120 actually think and it tweeted for me, that would be great. 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:45.560 You just need a posting phone. 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:47.440 Yeah, exactly, I will say I'm not going to buy 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.120 an Android, though I will eventually get a new iPhone. 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.000 So that network effect that we were talking about with 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:52.679 Mark Erman. 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:55.960 It's real, Yeah, no question, it's real. I think. Also 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:58.120 one thing that I want to go back to ed 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:00.960 that she saw close up and for stand yesterday is 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:04.320 apples dive into health. And the company for years has 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.440 been making its pitch to consumers that it is a safe, 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.520 it's safe with your data, that your data remains private 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:13.400 on the iPhone, and for years has been going further 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.080 and further into health. Talk to us a little bit 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.600 about what Apple could do to disrupt the healthcare space. 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:20.960 I mean, this has like a been more than a 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:22.000 decade long promise. 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:22.800 Yeah. 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:25.840 I mean the two technology updates are sleep apnea through 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:28.440 the Apple Watch, which starts with series ten but is 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:33.840 not exclusive to it, and hearing aid technology through AirPods. 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:37.160 Both of them are pending FDA approval, but I mean 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:41.280 Apple in a presentation publicly said the FDA approvals close, 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:44.000 and you would wager that they wouldn't say that were 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:49.360 they not confident. And it's interesting because like sleep apnea, 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:52.600 this is something that of course most Mark German had reported, 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.160 but it's kind of logical with the watch. The more 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:58.240 interesting one is probably the hearing aid technology. I don't 0:07:58.240 --> 0:07:59.920 know if you guys kind of track the markets, but 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.640 some hearing aid stocks fell because they take the competition 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:04.600 from Apples seriously. 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:05.480 Though the. 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.360 Mechanism, the modus operandi through airports is very different to 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:13.400 a discrete hearing aid, and the story that Apple's trying 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:15.960 to tell is holistic. Like you point out, Tim, we're 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.240 super good with privacy and data, but we're also about like, 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.560 you're going to use this anyway, so use it for 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:23.200 something that's beneficial to you. 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:24.600 Yeah, that's interesting. 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.400 Of course, we were talking about that and talking about 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:29.200 the notion of people just keeping it in and talking 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:31.440 to you, so we'll see to your point ed. I mean, 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:35.000 it's a good one that other companies, investors in other 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.400 companies are taking the threat seriously when it comes to 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:41.640 sort of the ambitions there when it comes to hearing aids. 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:43.079 Talk to us about the watches too. 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:45.079 I mean, I care about the watches, not because I'm 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:47.839 ever going to switch from a garment. But we did 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:52.680 get some details on what the next iteration of watches. 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.160 They're what the next evolution in the watch story might 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:55.600 look like. 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.400 Yeah, it's always interesting, like twenty four hours after the 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:00.600 fact of what people are talking about and I see 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:02.840 on social media, even from Mark German to sort of 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.680 rethink on the watches. They're a really important part of 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:10.480 Apple's strategy, right because you're not necessarily going to spend 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.880 one thousand dollars on a phone. You might find, you know, 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:18.120 four hundred dollars more palatable on a smart watch that 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:24.960 has fitness, sport, water sport and health data for you. 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:27.360 But it also goes to the other thing that we're 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.520 kind of joking about yesterday. But it's seriously important in 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:33.320 markets like China that the Apple Watch hasn't had a 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:37.000 refresh since twenty twenty two, really, and it's aspirational to 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.800 have an Apple product. And in the case of the 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.360 watches like a piece of jewelry, you know, and they 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:45.600 really emphasize the materials. You can get yourself an Ermez 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:48.800 wrist strap, but that is actually, you know, of substance 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:51.559 to a lot of buyers in a lot of different markets. 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:52.959 And it's core to the DNA of the watch. Remember 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:55.160 that first generation Apple Watch at it was about a 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:58.920 decade ago. There was like that fourteen thousand dollars gold version. 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:04.439 Right, It's like, essentially, yeah, you're talking from experience. That's 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:05.760 not something that adorned my risk. 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:08.800 Yeah didn't say though. It didn't adorn myris either. But 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:10.600 my first thought when that came out was like, this 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:12.120 thing is going to be obsolete in a year. I 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:13.760 can't believe anyone would buy such a thing. 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:16.120 One thing I'm going to look into though, that I 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:18.880 find really interesting is when the smartphone comes out, everyone goes, oh, well, 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:21.160 I'm on T Mobile, I'm on Verizon, and they'll give 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:23.679 me a deal and I'll upgrade or I won't. But remember, 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:25.600 in the United States in particular, there are lots of 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:29.360 health insurers that will subsidize you buying a piece of 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:33.560 health or fitness equipment. And I'm really interested to see 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:35.839 how that works this time around. You know, people are 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.960 basically post pandemic, so concerned with data about their wellbeing, 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:41.760 and you do wonder if that's going to be a 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:43.920 big driver an upgrade cycle on the wearable side. 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:45.480 Hey, before we let you go, just in the last 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:46.880 forty seconds we have with you, Now that we are 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.200 twenty four hours out from that event, what are the 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:51.640 analysts saying what are their notes saying in general. 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:55.000 Everyone is so bullish and really guys probably get Dana 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:57.560 ives emails and you're in books from web Bush. The 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:00.400 supercycle's coming if you believe the cell side. And I 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.960 think part of that is irrespective of whether Apple Intelligence 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:06.160 is here now, it will come eventually, So buy yourself 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:08.640 a new handset in the anticipation it will come. 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:12.360 D Lovelove, co host of Bloomberg Technology on Bloomberg TV, 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:16.560 also has a degree in European Union law, so the 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:18.960 perfect guy to talk to for everything tech and of 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:22.800 course antitrust in regulatory from the EU as well. He 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:24.800 joins us from our San Francisco bureau. 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:29.640 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.680 Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio and Television. 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:36.560 It is Bloomberg Business Week. That's Katie Greifeld in for 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:39.880 Carol Masser this afternoon. I'm Tim Stenebek, Katie. When we 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:44.200 talk about recessions, yeah, we often talk about economic recessions, Okay. 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.800 The National Bureau of Economic Research defines them as quote, 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.960 a significant decline in economic activity that's spread across the 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:54.040 economy and lasts more than a few months. Yeah, okay, 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:55.920 what about a dating recession. 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.200 You know, a love recession if you will. 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:00.240 Well, we bring that up because then you see Afford 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:03.240 University study, along with recent government surveyed data, bolster the 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:06.880 conclusion that COVID not only sparked this economic recession, but 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:10.280 also a recession in American social lives and it lingers. 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:14.080 Years after most US adults were vaccinated for millions, dating 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:17.559 and other social activity never recovered, with effects that aren't 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.959 just personal and psychological, but economic and perhaps even political. 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.000 We got Ben Steverman with us. He writes for Bloomberg 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:27.400 Business Week all about this type of recession. He's Bloomberg 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:29.280 Newswalth reporter and he joins us here in the studio. 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:33.520 So what exactly is the definition of a dating recession. 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:36.599 Well, this is a term that comes out of research 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:42.560 from Stanford University, and it looks at informal relationships. So 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:45.959 you know, we have actually have pretty good data that 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.240 marriages pretty much held up during COVID. If you were 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:54.000 living with someone and you liked them, you tended to 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:58.079 survive the pandemic. But we don't have really good we 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:00.640 didn't have really good data on like these people, like 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:04.440 informal dating, so somebody maybe that's somebody you see once 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:07.800 a week, or these short term relationships that go on 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:10.000 for three months, and you know every we all know 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:13.000 these sort of serial daters. You jump from relationship to relationship. 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.440 This survey was conducted in twenty seventeen. Then he then 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.319 this researcher did it again in twenty twenty and twenty 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:25.320 twenty two, and what he found was that basically he 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:29.040 estimates there thirteen million more single people now than there 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.760 were before the recession. So that's like one in five 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:35.160 US adults who was very concentrated among young people, which 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:39.160 you would expect they're the people who are dating. And 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.600 so I had that piece of data from this new study. 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.280 But then I also went and analyzed the American Time 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:48.400 Use Survey. It's another way of getting at informal social 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:51.000 lives and seeing what's happened to social lives over time. 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:55.600 And actually what I found there was more more disturbing. Basically, 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:58.520 the Bureau Labor Statistics, I ask people to track their 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.679 days and what we see is that face to face 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:06.160 socializing has declined a lot, which is maybe not surprising 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:08.000 that it declined a lot during the pandemic when we 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.160 were all stuck at home. But the thing is it 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:15.000 hasn't recovered. So like you would expect, like the economy 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:19.080 has bounced back from COVID, you would expect that it's 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.760 like face to face socializing you would have as well, 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.000 But it's really kind of stuck. We're kind of stuck 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:26.360 basically where we were in twenty twenty one, which is 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:29.480 like the deadliest year of COVID. This is based on 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.640 twenty twenty three data, so let's hope things are coming 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:36.200 back even more this year. But what I tried to 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:38.040 do is then think about what is the long term 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.320 consequences for some of these some of these trends, and 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:44.640 maybe what are some of the psychological and even health 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:45.680 effects that might have. 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:46.280 Well. 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:48.360 I wonder we were talking about this a little bit 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:50.760 in the commercial break, how much of this is demographics, 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:52.920 because it seems like gen Z is dating less, they 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:54.600 don't go out as much. But I guess that wraps 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.360 into of course, a lot of them were really coming 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.240 into full fledged adulthood during the pandemic, so maybe those 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:03.120 two are impossible to separate. But talk to us about 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.160 the potential economic ramifications here. 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:12.040 So these informal relationships we have. I mean, obviously social 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:15.040 life is just important for your mental health and lots 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:20.040 of other things, but these informal relationships, they're they're the 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:24.400 first steps that you need to move in together, get married, 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:29.120 have kids, buy homes together. All these things are all 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.000 have been delayed over the Like if you look at 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.760 the way before the pandemic, you look at what what miles, 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:39.120 which milestones thirty year olds are hitting? We keep hitting 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:43.520 those milestones later and later in life. Yeah, of buying homes. 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:45.680 And the question though that I would have is and 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.280 so you can't continue, you can't measure this. Would this 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:49.920 have happened without the pandemic? 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.480 I think the long term trend suggests that this kind 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:57.000 of both the hitting the benchmarks later and just the 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.480 social decline of community to go one a social connection, 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.240 Those are long term trends that were happening before COVID, 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.600 but COVID seems to have really accelerated them. And then 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:08.600 you raise the question about young people and how they're different, Well, 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.560 what if you're a young person and you've never learned 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.000 that those social skills, you never learned those like the 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.160 sort of the ability to kind of break out of 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:20.920 your shell and put yourself in new environments, whether it 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.800 stands for or you know, I'm obsessed with nightlife. So 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.440 while I was talking about nightlife, but what if you've 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:28.840 never learned to do that, you don't even know what 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:34.880 you're missing. So I think that there is possible something 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:39.040 profoundly profound and shifted in our culture. And actually see 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:42.080 some signs. This is a little depressing, but I see 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:44.040 some signs of optimism in that there might be a 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:47.120 little bit of a backlash to that happening now. So 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.360 the other thing I see in the Time you survey 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:54.320 data is that people are attending and hosting social events 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:55.200 just a little bit more. 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:55.960 So. 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:58.200 That's the one piece of social activity that seems to 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:00.240 be coming back. We're still spending a lot of time 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:02.320 with our phones, a lot of time with computers, but 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:05.320 people are hosting parties and going to parties more so 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:08.240 it seems like we're trying and some only some people 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:09.680 are trying to get out there more. 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:12.400 It's some a good optimism too and on Ben Steverman 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:15.680 is a Bloomberg News wealth reporter. Check out his story. 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:17.359 You can read it on the Bloomberg Terminal and at 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:20.880 Bloomberg dot com. He writes all about this dating recession 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:22.480 for a Bloomberg BusinessWeek. 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:27.440 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch US 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.680 Live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern Listen 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:33.400 on Apple CarPlay and then Brought Auto with a Bloomberg 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:37.040 Business Act or watch US Live on YouTube. 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.200 A forty new set of wheels right off the lot 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:44.200 has become increasingly difficult in recent years. What do you 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:46.200 think the average new car buyer in the US paid 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:46.600 in July? 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:49.119 I have no idea, Tim, I was hoping that you 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:49.680 would tell me. 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:54.240 Close to fifty thousand dollars and dollars for a car. Yeah, yeah, 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.919 that's according to Kelly Bluebook. One painful result is that 0:17:58.040 --> 0:17:59.960 average payments for buyers of new cars in the U 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:02.520 rose to seven hundred and thirty five dollars a month 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:05.320 in the first quarter of the year. That's according to experience. 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.639 But if you lease it, the average monthly lease payment 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:12.200 for new vehicles fell to five hundred and ninety five dollars. 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:14.800 And some evs can be had for even less, some 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:17.800 for a lot less. Keith laying his Bloomberg News Automotive 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.040 Regulations reporter he joins US from our Washington DC bureau. 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:24.400 It's almost too good to be true. Keith. The headline 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.800 on your story about a twenty dollars per month lease 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:30.880 for an ev we got to start there. Where did 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:31.359 this happen? 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:35.960 So that was a deal we confirmed at a dealership 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:40.560 in Colorado. It actually came to our attention because Chris Hilbert, 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:44.200 who was one of the potential car buyers I quoted 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:47.560 in the story, had mentioned it, and researching online, I 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:49.600 saw it had been going viral. So I contacted the 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:51.800 dealership and they confirmed that it was true. That was 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:54.680 their offer in July, and even in August they had 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.840 like a twenty dollars deal. And then if you hadn't 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:01.040 mentioned the article that was written that helped that deal 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:04.480 go viral, then your deal was twenty five dollars. And 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.639 then even in August they confirmed they were offering the 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:08.920 Nissan Leafs for as low as sixty five dollars a month. 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:12.840 It's just because nobody wants evs, Is that why? 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:17.120 Well, there's debatable about the level of interest in the evs, 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:19.800 but in speaking to car dealers for this story and others, 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.120 there's a lot of inventory that has been on car 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.760 lots that car dealers are incentivized to move and manufacture 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:29.680 their manufacturers are providing extra incentives for them to move, 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.720 and there are in the case of leases, there are 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:36.880 evs that no longer qualify for federal tax credits because 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:39.679 of new rules that were enacted by Congress in the 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:43.320 twenty twenty two Inflation Reduction Act, which placed limits on 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.000 where the cars are built, where their batteries are from, 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:50.240 where the minerals are from the price of the car, 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:53.040 even the income of the car buyer, and all those 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:58.520 limits applied to purchases, but leases are considered commercial vehicles 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:00.879 and none of those limits to apply to those. So 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:04.479 the manufacturers then get the credit themselves, bundle it with 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:08.760